Regardless of weather he did it or not this pod cast is pure genius. Not everyone has the skill of story telling that touches one’s heart. But this narrator was WOW. Award winning podcast.
Imagine being high and thinking the cops are coming to talk to you about your ex and you’re freaking out that you got weed on you but then they arrest you for murder 😬
Y'know, it's easy to get wrapped up in the many characters involved with this case......and, not remember that there was a real, once very much alive, vibrant girl who had a family and dreams and a future. When Sarah starting talking about what Hae Lee was like.....I surprised myself, with an outburst of emotion that's never happened to me before, NOT LIKE THAT. I got to the nail polish part....and, I'm STILL a F*#@!N MESS. If Adnan DIDN'T do it.....the real killer needs to PAY UP.
"Its my own fault at the end of the day" Now that's an adult talking, I understand how he could be okay with his situation now, all these years later. He's made the best of what life handed him. Im sure as a young adult he was bitter &angry. Up until now, I think he's innocent. I still suspect Jay & the new boyfriend. Love this series! !
@@timjkoala7556 you really think he knows all of this information and still innocent enough to walk freely? Even the juror who voted adnan guilty thought for sure that jay was going to end in some kind of life sentence. I believe he was involved more than he lead on and Adnan may be guilty but don’t say there’s no evidence against jay because he literally got rid of all evidence that could have proved his innocence instead of the my word against his word situation. He threw out his clothes and lied abt the phone booth that he claimed is the entire source of what Adnan used to contact him after the murder. And if your going to play the he didn’t have motive like Adnan did card, jealousy can go in more ways than one. Jay could have been jealous of Adnan and Stephanie’s relationship just as Adnan could have been of don.
@@isabelmartinez6851 seriously! He literally got rid of all evidence that would prove his innocence. I just can’t understand the superior court not granting the retrial. This case is so upsetting because the LEAST he deserves is a retrial. If the state can prove it without a shred of doubt, then fine but there is way too much doubt at this point to not grant him a retrial. Hopefully one day he’ll get his day back in court.
@@michaelkennedy3372 it’s yielded a conviction but it’s not solved. Someone being convicted doesn’t mean it’s solved. Look at the many many wrongful convictions that get thrown out constantly.
It's not. If you have any stoner or druggie friends, they can talk, tell a story, and escape the truth (with a little bit of influence). Sayeed has had plenty of chances to speak his side of the truth but chose not to. If it's hopeful that the truth will reveal itself, I'm sure not until all sides of the story are on the table. This guy can pretend to be concerned, magnanimous and forthcoming but hasn't done a thing to help progress his own side. That is if he is innocent and all..
@@madxmaxxine6552 idk, I feel like he has told his side of this story via these podcasts. Testifying on the witness stand in your own trial is never recommended by any lawyer, innocent or guilty.
Jurors need to be reminded every day all the damn time, it seems, that a) defendants are presumed INNOCENT until the prosecution can prove beyond ANY reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Too many jurors forget that very important right and expect the defendant to prove the story the prosecution makes up false. It doesn’t matter how perfectly the story prosecution tells fits the narrative. If they can’t prove with absolutely zero doubt that their story is true, the defendant is INNOCENT. b) defendants RARELY get up on the stand. The defense lawyer does not want the prosecution to have a chance at cross examination and to ask questions that they can spin to make the defendant sound guilty easier. It almost always goes badly when a defendant testifies for themselves. Even the most innocent person has to be coached endlessly to be ready for cross. It is NOT suspicious if they don’t testify and YOU WERE TOLD not to consider that they don’t! Good job admitting you ignored your own duty! I think Adnan might’ve done it but the case they made is nowhere near air tight. The reasonable doubt in this case is beyond overwhelming.
If I had been part of the jury I wouldn’t have been able to convict him beyond reasonable doubt because I am riddled with doubt when it comes to this case. I don’t know if he did it or not, but I do know that there isn’t enough evidence (direct evidence especially) to place him at the scene of the crime.
Clearly none of you have served on a jury. The Prosecutor and the defense will define what "reasonable doubt" means. It doesn't mean that you have to prove 100% that he/she did commit the crime. They will say that if you can go home and lay your head down at night and not feel like you got it wrong the that is proof "beyond reasonable doubt"
Anthony Westerman Maybe the US has a different definition of “beyond reasonable doubt”. Where I’m from, this case is full of reasonable doubt. I even got my sister and my mom (both lawyers) and my aunt (former Chief Justice) to look into it and give their opinion on this case and they agreed that there is plenty of reasonable doubt.
The little amounts of forensic evidence in this case is so concerning like this happened late 90s it’s not unusual for forensics to be involved and they should’ve been
I think Jay and Adnan both did it but since Adnan is trying to maintain his “I’m innocent” scheme he can’t tell everyone the part Jay didn’t tel them, I feel like Adnan took all the blame for it, but Jay was more involved he just doesn’t want his community to get backlash from him being a murderer
I know I am echoing the comments thus far but had to say this podcast is an incredible piece of journalism mixed with a beautiful dose of humanity resulting in award winning content. What I truly admire is that the journalist in her tells such a well balanced and impeccably documented story of such tragic events. But it is the human compassion that she brings to her work that makes this story so real and the people involved so relatable and human. The two moments that really got to me during this episode was the Korean proverb that Hey’s mother said at the sentencing of Anon which was absolutely heart wrenching and Anon’s description of the small moments of kindness he received from strangers and friends that he experienced during some of the worst moments of his life. It is these delicate pieces of information that are added to the overall story showing her deep understanding of the human experience that makes her an incredibly talented human being!
Idk about falsely, this reads as unjustly to me. Just because it might not be exactly like in state case doesn't mean he couldnt be a part of murder :/
Natalie Brown i wouldn’t say random, a lot of shady shit happened and I feel jay and the girls weren’t telling their full story’s behind a potential motive
@@nataliebrown3193 We know that's not the case because Jay showed the police exactly where Hae's car was when the Police had so much trouble finding it. That alone shows us this was not a mere coincidence between a random serial killer and Hae, Jay and Adnan's weird circumstances.
Confused me as to how people think Adnon is guilty. Nothing we've heard says that he did it. The only person lying and doing shady things is Jay. This should still be an investigation at most IMO. With all the lies, Jay shouldn't have been credible enough to gain a conviction. If somebody lies this much in 2022, no way anybody would believe them, let alone get this conviction.
Yeah the way they do things now is a lot different than the 90s. I can't really tell if Adnan is guilty or not, but with this evidence and lack of consistency from their only witness, he should have never been convicted.
Why would Jay help move the body and then tell the police? Jay’s actions are extremely suspect. His story changes numerous times even up until trial. It wouldn’t be the first time someone approaches police with a story and inserts someone else in their place as the killer. It has happened more than people think. It’s not so far fetched that Adnan is innocent. Hell, even the innocent get executed and after their death some officials decide to investigate their claims and even exonerate them. By then it’s to little to late. If they believe he is truly guilty then taking another look into the case shouldn’t be an issue. It would only further solidify their original conviction. However, there are some officials that do not want cases reinvestigated because of the possibility that they were wrong
Ah those pings, Adnan... those pings at Leaking Park... was the universe conspiring against you? Of all places Leaking Park?? Of all days, on that day??? The cellphone towers, Adnan. Everything else is blurry, but the cellphone towers? In Leaking Park?? Come on... I want to believe you so much. You're so eloquent and your confidence, tone of voice, so friendly and convincing. But those pings...
Your very happy;almost excited when you talk to/about or hear any glimmer of hope that he is innocent,I really think you might of getting caught up in the hype that you might get him off for murder. Too me he is definitely guilty and it is very plain to see
He says “I’m not doubting anyone’s sincerity.” Sounds like he is telling us that he was doubting someone’s sincerity, perhaps even his own. After they arrest him, I think he is genuine when he says that he believed that he would be going home. I don’t know if that was because he was a naive, innocent 17 year old, or if he thought he was outsmarting the police. He remains optimistic throughout though, like he doesn’t quite know the gravity of the situation. I understand what he says about making a plea deal, and I think he mentions that because he wishes he could do the same. Might be too distressing to relive it all over again in court....regardless of guilt. He doesn’t want to let up that he is innocent. He has to be “a good Muslim” especially in the eyes of his family to lessen their suffering. At the same time, he assumed this family would stand by him if he were to admit guilt. He compares living with his parents to being a ward of the state. He is clearly accustomed to being however he needs to be...adaptable...in order to look like whatever suits the situation. In an aside, I tend to think Christa’s account would be pretty accurate, and important, because she actually wrote it all down. The plot thickens!
Andan and Jay both did it, Jay only snitched about what Adnan did which is why Adnan was at leakin park at night on Janurary the 13th. Also, some of Jay's cellphone records didn't ping in the right place meaning some of the places he says he was at the time were lies. One of the biggest lies jay told was when he said he was somewhere else but he pinged to be near where Hae's car was found. I think he was helping get rid of the car. They both did it but Jay decided to blame it on Adnan so that Jay wouldn't also go prison. I just think there's more evidence that it was Jay that did it, and less evidence that it was Adnan. I also don't trust Jen's involvement in this.
I am having to listen to this for school and I agree with you about Adnan while he doesn’t seem innocent he doesn’t seem as guilty as Jay. Jay changed his story, was quick to snitch, and threw away his clothes and the shovels that were used in the murder.
I think Jay killed hae and adnan knew he did. I think Jae testified in the position of adnan so everything Jay was saying should be from Adnan’s point of view
Its a good point. When Koenig points out that people around Adnan and Hae didn't observe public, possesive or angry behavior during or after their relationship - that doesn't mean Adnan wasn't that way in private with Hae, which Hae alludes to at one point in her diary.
38:38 yes brother, we make the biggest, stupidest mistake by not listening to our rab, our creator... he loves us more than anyone, he's our biggest well wisher, if He ☝️tells us don't do this or do that, it's for our own good. But he cared for you, he put you through all this to make you a better Muslim, so you don't face torment in hereafter. He'll reward you for your patience. That part made me so emotional.
This podcast series, and the whole case for that matter, is a study in confirmation bias. Both sides are guilty of it, but perhaps especially this podcast. If this, if that and if the other thing, then maybe the state's narrative might not be true, therefore he's definitely not guilty. I understand that the burden of proof rests on the state and raising the "ifs" can result in reasonable doubt and acquittal. However, I think the alternatives in this case are not strong enough or well supported enough to overcome the key elements of the state's case and do not constitute reasonable doubt. Nevertheless, the podcast is still very well organized and interesting to listen to.
Jay is really the one who had physical evidence though how in the world would they not have a thing for physical evidence on this man and put him in jail for life
Good responsible student is missing for almost a month, and her smart friends were shocked she was found dead. How? Can anyone explain how would they think she would turn up, she hadnt run away before, she hasn't obviously been staying or in contact with them..
Understandable, when listening i almost feel like she holds double standards with this. In the past she has defended Adnan using the but he was high but the thing is, is that Adna isn’t claiming to remember anything. Jay is spitting all these accusations and stories onto Adnan. If hew can recall on these details (not only the big ones little ones as well) then he should be able to remember the other parts as well.
Which was? (honest question, I still don't think there's enough on this podcast alone to point the finger at anyone with concrete evidence/support--a "smoking gun" per say)
Adnan's motive was anger and jealousy after being dumped by Hae for an older, better guy whom he had suspected her of cheating on him with. Adnan was possessive and controlling when he & Hae were together, per her diaries and her friend Debbie's testimony. Hae dumped him one last time for good and told him enough is enough, it's time to move on via note. On that note he wrote "I am going to kill." This would've been a fairly easy motive for the state to demonstrate.
I initially believed in Adnans innocence. But now after listening to a fair amount of behavioural interviewing.. I believe Adnan belongs behind bars. He is where he belongs. I think Jay had more to do with the murder than he admits to.. but Adnan seems guilty to me now.
Even people who have spent decades wrongfully imprisoned and are later exonerated by DNA evidence or whatever other methods seem to eventually come to a place of peace, calm, and even just being used to being locked up. It doesn't mean they are guilty. Can you imagine spending years, decades, just being extremely angry and worked up but with your poor, unfair circumstances likely never changing? You would go crazy. Or, like some people do, eventually kill yourself. I pray I'm never in that kind of situation, but if I ever were, I would hope to not add to the misery by being angry and bitter throughout. Coming to terms with and coming to be more calm about the situation is something of a very understandable survival technique.
Also, damned if you do, damned if you don't. If Adnad had come off too angry and impassioned in these conversations, folks would twist that into confirming his guilt. Or they would say some ish like, "a truly innocent person wouldn't get so upset talking about this or always be on such the defensive." I think people in this situation really can't win.
Just by point out Hae’s car to the police Jay is involved in one way or another. Why not start there. To me there are three suspects. Jay, Stephanie and Adnan. In my opinion, Jay seems too fishy and this sounds like he framed Adnan but I could be wrong.
So Adnan tried calling the detective 🤔. Seems very odd, like he wants more information in order to know if they are catching on to him. Also when the investigators where interrogating him, they showed him a picture of Hae. His reaction was oh they trying to make me talk. Trying to get me to admit it. I gotta outsmart these guys. Was he not sad that Hae was killed? Was he not angry that they were accusing him of killing someone he loved? He doesn’t seem at all saddened by this death. The nurse even said it looked like he was faking his emotions. Idk seems odd
WHERE IS HEY'S BF (that older guy)??? I'm literally just speculating here, but what if Adnan left his phone in Jay's car for a bit when they smoked weed before track practice and Jay did help bury Hey but he helped someone else (the BF no one talks about idk) and Adnan was just the perfect target to pin this on! Maybe Nisha was called through Adnan's phone on purpose to create this evidence. IDKKK. Maybe Stephanie's life was in danger if Adnan wasn't framed. I dont knowwwwwwwww
milart12 yeah that seems to be the only likely explanation... BUT i do think it so much more interesting to think he DIDN'T do it... and that's the thing i find so compelling about this case...it's that there will always be that 1% chance that he is innocent...after all there is no actual physical evidence (like DNA or shit like that) that proves he did it...all we have are witness accounts (and a very erratic witness at that) and circumstancial evidence...
Trevor Noah thats my problem wit cases like this where people,jus go ohh clearly guilty like yeah most likely prolly is but we can't lower the standard of sending,people to life in,jail without physical,evidence and a unreliable witness to me,if there is the tiniest .004% chance some1 didn't,do it imo they shouldn't,go,to,jail and maybe murderers will get away n some will say that's injustice but if 1 inonnecent,person goes,to,jail that is way worse to me most,criminals will do something again n,get caught, there is plenty of cases where the only clear suspect with the only motive n seemed clearly guilty even wit "evidence" n they spend,20 years in,jail cuz well who else,woulda done,it only to find out wit dna ohh yeah that's right people kill strangers all the time duhh they have no motive other than they wanna kill some1 and this case is extremely similar 2 alot of those cases where coincidence even,if,he did say imma kill her n then,she died dont,mean,shit stranger things have hapoened. The only difference is in those cases they tested for DNA. So now bottle the rope anything could be what proved his,innocence or guilt but they knew they didn't need it to convince some dummies in bmore to convict. That's what most,people dont get they jus go oh pssh ex gf dead he did it , and our justice system can't be brought down to that level of literally less than 2 hours deliberation and GUILTY.
This could be true, although I would suspect Jay way much over Adnan because he made a point to instantly point fingers toward Adnan and Jay could’ve been either jealous or trying to stop from getting into other legal trouble because of him being a drug dealer. He tried make it seem like he had no part of it at all, except for knowing about what happened.
Why is this adnan guy talking so much now but chose to stay silent during the court trial?? Is it because he knew he was guilty along with jay and didn't want to be trapped?
It's the opposite. Innocent people get tricked by crafty lawyers all the time. A lot of prosecutors are damn good at their job. I'm not saying hes innocent. Only that your reasonings are terrible.
Actually the judge did not allow him to get up on the stand and defend himself. Sara mentions this in the episode before this one towards the last few mins.
Did you not even watch the previous episodes? He wasn't allowed to. Honestly, you're so quick to judge him for it, there's no hard evidence that he did it. Karma will come back to you and you might see yourself in a situation like this.
Has anyone ever thought that maybe jay had to have made a move at Hae cause he was jealous of Adnan and Stephs friendship maybe he thought it was more and he wanted to put adnan in his place and tried to bang his chick and Hae wasn’t having it and she was going to tell Steph so jay had to kill her so she wouldn’t tell
For starters Hae wasn't Adnan's chick. Hae was Don's chick. Damn do you really think Jay is some Machiavellian killer? Because from the limited tapes that are played here I don't hear that level of a sophistication from Jay.
@@anthonywesterman4166 Even though Hae wasn't Adnan's "chick," she was still someone close to him that he cared about so Jay still could have tried to get with her.
Does anyone else feel like it might have been adnan and Stephanie who did it and Jays been covering for her all these years. It would explain why his story kept changing but how he knew exactly where Haes car was. It would explain why Stephanie stayed with him throughout the trial. It would explain why Jay was so frustrated that Adnan is still denying guilt. It would explain why Stephanie shut down and would refuse to discuss the case with anyone. It’s also corroborate by Jay’s friends who said he would do anything to protect her. Idk just a thought😐
Maybe Stephanie was jealous of Hae. She says she needed a ride somewhere, kills her, they get into an argument that goes to far, kills her, calls jay and he helps hide her until they could dunk the body later. That’s why he knows so much and is quick to make sure Adnan goes down for it. That actually makes alot of sense. Can anyone account for where Stephanie was that day?
Aaron Falk Exactly. No one has and Stephanie has completely clammed up in regards to the entire situation. No one ever explored that route because Jay took that whole side of the blame. However I’m not sure Stephanie really had any motivation to commit this crime on her own. Not only that but I don’t think it’s likely that she had the physical strength to overpower Hae and strangle her to death. I definitely feel like Adnan was part of it. No matter how it’s framed he’s the only one who had real motivation to kill Hae, and in such an intimate way. Stephanie being so close to him may have agreed to help dispose of the body and clean up evidence. She could have panicked once the police began to close in on Adnan told Jay who given his reputation was the perfect guy to take her role in the crime and has refused to speak about it ever since. Also if Adnan and Jay both respectively loved her like they claim the did it makes sense as to why they hadn’t said anything about her. I’m wondering though, what do you think Stephanie was jealous of and why?
@@Z6221-t3t theories like this is why ppl like Stephanie don't speak up. They'll get brought up in even more hypothetical scenarios that have no merit. The more you talk the more you're likely to get dragged.
@@obaidbaig2058 As I said, just a thought. If we’re to theoretically analyze this case and determine whether we as individuals believe that Adnan is guilty or not alternate theories are apt to develop. Furthermore, the same thing you said can be argued about a guilty party. Not saying that’s what she is but it goes both ways.
His alibi that he was at work, I wonder if they checked cameras bc anyone could of clocked him in. Plus someone saw scratches on him which is interesting, bc there’s no way some one is gonna let you strangle them unless you do it from behind.
Anyone watch True Detective season 3? I bring it up because we all love conspiracy theories no matter how improbable. True Detective 3 reminds us that 99.9% of the time the answer (no matter how much we want it to be a otherwise) is the simple one. No vast conspiracy between Jay, Don, and the police. Adnan did it. Sarah can't see this because she's obviously crushing on this guy. She's down to taking the word of an obvious stoner that there was no pay phone at Best Buy (who is telling this to her years later) over trained police officers who were there in the moment with no motive to frame Adnan.
@@amphitheatre If you're talking about True Detective....they did. I'd say kidnapping a little girl and drugging her to pretend she's your daughter would qualify as child abuse. Causing a little boy to fall and hit his head against a rock so hard it killed him...child abuse. There was no vast conspiracy of pedophiles trafficking children in TD 3 like most viewers thought. Just like in Adnan's case. You have what seems to be a decent enough guy snap in the moment, kill his girlfriend, then try to cover it up. Simplest answer. By the end Sara admits their was a pay phone inside Best Buy and they float the idea of a serial killer. Grasping at straws. Jay knew where Hae's car was so he was in on at least the dumping of the body. Adnan never called her after she was dead because he knew she was dead. Adnan makes a slip in one of his calls to Sara stating there were no skin cells or DNA under her fingernails because Hae never fought back...who but the killer would know this. Lastly Adnan has never accounted for his whereabouts during the time of the murder for one reason...he can't...his alibi is that he was choking Hae Lee to death. If the argument is no jury could get past reasonable doubt with only circumstantial evidence...well that's at least better than he's innocent.
@@Lamelizcat No actually the library alibi came from another person...it's in an earlier segment. The girl who provided the alibi says something like her boyfriend was jealous she was talking to Adnan. When pressed though the girl could not recall if this occurred on the day of the murder or not. Adnan only brought up the library alibi after this girl came up with it.
The cops may not have had "motive to frame Adnan" but you're way off base thinking that they didn't have an immense amount of pressure to solve that case as quickly as possible. And once detectives have someone in their sights, confirmation bias, ego and the sunk cost fallacy in regards to time/effort will ensure that rationality and evidence will go right out the window a lot of the times. With that said, I have no idea if this guy is guilty mainly just because that Jay guy (who does seem shady as shit) knew exactly where the car was. So who knows in this case, but cops aren't as infallible as you'd think.
While I don’t think he did it…I just can’t for the life of me, figure out how he can recount every detail of the interrogation, but can’t recall other important matters.
I think it goes back to her topic in the 1st episode. An interrogation is memorable because its scary, in front of intimidating police, etc,. However, the day they need him to remember was insignificant up until i’m sure he got notice that Hai was missing.. I’m confused on how he allowed Jay to have his car and or phone? Did someone steal his phone to frame him? It’s just a lot😖
what? there was an outgoing call to ayeesha or however it's spelled. right? that was the one friend they couldn't attribute to Jay calling at the time Jay was supposed to have had the phone. seems like the phone records are just off on the times
actually they found a fax that says all incoming call towers are not accurate and may not be used to provide accurate location. it's only accurate for out going calls to bill correctly. 1999 cell towers are way less accurate than these days
@@legoninja9004 honestly bro, the traction this story was picking up was almost way too much to keep him locked up in my opinion. I don't remember this case and I usually remember a lot of old cases from watching things like 20/20 and dateline with my granny as a kid so it just seemed to me that a case like this couldn't go unnoticed for much being that the podcast was years old and the right people still hasn't heard it yet.
@@legoninja9004 I'll be Terrance with you,I hate that Adnon "can't remember the day" but then again I'm around his age and there's days I guess I don't remember so that being said and sorry for the long post but I feel that because his trial was so bad and 1 sided, he shouldn't have been convicted but with all the years served, he should've been released years ago in my opinion but if he played a part in the murder then he's served his time I suppose but I do know that the friend should've definitely been serving time with him because he was clearly there. He lied so much and no one cared, not even his friends and family years later and I know that because they've all at least seen the series and never spoke out. He lied so much that I 74% believe Adnon is innocent and if so should be paid for the years lost. I hope to never know anyone or myself be put in a situation like that.
But wait.the girlfriend of Jay is called Stephanie, as in the prom princess who was mentioned in Hae Mins diary? Who was somehow dumped by Adnan to be with Hae? Crazy theory: Stephanie was in love with Adan and more than jealous of Hae, so she got somehow in contact with Jay, ending up planning to murder Hae Min and blaming it on Adan as a punishment? The dna found on the wheel in Haes car, could be Stephanies, who parked it there, so the story would make sense?
How can Adnan or his family let a public defender to represent him ? That was such a fatal move. I blame his representation for all of this. Sometime I feel I could have represented Adnan better than than Gutierrez or the Public defender. Adnan was not trained properly to take up the stand in the court. How can you apologize in the court Adnan, How can the public defender accept that it was a crime of passion of adnan, what was wrong with that moron. How did he accept Adnan as a criminal your own client, those were the last few nails in Adnan's coffin. This story is getting tragic. Such miscarriage of justice. He was totally taken down by surprise by these hounds of our justice system, the cops, the investigators, the lawyers, the judge. Even blood tears are not enough if you hear about this tragic story of Adnan. They should have contacted CAIR or some good seasoned lawyer. It all went down because he was raw teenager, and Jay came prepared with his story polished, Adnan got bad representation, he didnt had lawyer initially. Those are the take aways, dont every do these mistakes guys specially if you are from colored, black, brown, Muslim, minority group dont talk to cops without a lawyer.
how else is this guy ment to act in talking to people of he doesnt sound like a good guy he has no chance of being released and if he shows hes 2nd side he staying put ....its not rocket science stop talking to Adnan he wont change he always gonna come across as the good guy
100% jay killed hay for revenge and put aman in jail. He had an accomplice and fabricated all the evidence. He had another person with him who switched later when Aman and jay would later meet up.
Jay was upset his girlfriend and aman were close and flirty with eachother. Jay sold drugs and they may have had problems that might have added up later. Jay thought aman would be a threat to him. He fabricated the story and set up the scene to kill hay.
You are falling for the podcast bias .. theres nothing against jay but i fo feel both are involved, made a deal but jay just betrayed adnan n got his ass saved thats it
Stephenie was in love with Adnan so she killed Hae but because Jay was in love with Stephanie , he couldn’t let her go to prison. To kill two birds 🦅, in one stone, he framed Adnan and kept Stephanie out of prison. That way he gets his love and gets rid of his competition that is why he suspicious and why Stephanie is not talking to anyone.
It’s not supposed to be uplifting i think supposed to be unsettling the high notes from the piano combined with the low notes from the base are meant to throw you off as your subconscious is trying to figure out what’s making both sounds now I’m not a musical theorist but that’s my two cents
I think this whole case is very sloppy !!! To the time line when the girl got killed, the lawyer Adnan was garbage , the cops over look alot of thing cus they was in a hurry to bring in the killer ; and why did Jay didnt get any time is beyond me at the very least probation. I believe Adnan is guilty !! I just think it was a very sloppy invistigation from the start in a hurry to convict someone for the crime!! Jay might be a liar but tht doesnt make him a killer , i 💯% think Jay was there when Adnan killed his ex girlfriend, Jay has no connection to the guy tht found the body and hes not connected to Don the new boyfriend but hes is connected to Adnan ; No one know where the car was only Jay did !!!!
Regardless of weather he did it or not this pod cast is pure genius. Not everyone has the skill of story telling that touches one’s heart. But this narrator was WOW. Award winning podcast.
Imagine being high and thinking the cops are coming to talk to you about your ex and you’re freaking out that you got weed on you but then they arrest you for murder 😬
Specially if you happened to kill her.
@@luisfelipesauvalle5807 lol
He called the officer in charge when the body was found, that’s a concerned friend or a stone cold killer, He has balls if he is guilty., ice cold
If this shit ends without an answer I'm throwing my phone across the room.
...
@@JNB0723 no don’t do that. don’t put them dots. you got me fixing to skip to the end
Same😅
How broken was it after throwing?! 🤣🤣 I have listened to this many times over the past 4 or so years BECAUSE there is still no answer 😅
@@kjay714 😂 lost it at "don't put them dots"
Y'know, it's easy to get wrapped up in the many characters involved with this case......and, not remember that there was a real, once very much alive, vibrant girl who had a family and dreams and a future. When Sarah starting talking about what Hae Lee was like.....I surprised myself, with an outburst of emotion that's never happened to me before, NOT LIKE THAT. I got to the nail polish part....and, I'm STILL a
F*#@!N MESS. If Adnan DIDN'T do it.....the real killer needs to PAY UP.
"Its my own fault at the end of the day" Now that's an adult talking, I understand how he could be okay with his situation now, all these years later. He's made the best of what life handed him. Im sure as a young adult he was bitter &angry. Up until now, I think he's innocent. I still suspect Jay & the new boyfriend. Love this series! !
Lol, there's not a single piece of evidence that Jay did it
@@timjkoala7556 you really think he knows all of this information and still innocent enough to walk freely? Even the juror who voted adnan guilty thought for sure that jay was going to end in some kind of life sentence. I believe he was involved more than he lead on and Adnan may be guilty but don’t say there’s no evidence against jay because he literally got rid of all evidence that could have proved his innocence instead of the my word against his word situation. He threw out his clothes and lied abt the phone booth that he claimed is the entire source of what Adnan used to contact him after the murder. And if your going to play the he didn’t have motive like Adnan did card, jealousy can go in more ways than one. Jay could have been jealous of Adnan and Stephanie’s relationship just as Adnan could have been of don.
@@isabelmartinez6851 seriously! He literally got rid of all evidence that would prove his innocence. I just can’t understand the superior court not granting the retrial. This case is so upsetting because the LEAST he deserves is a retrial. If the state can prove it without a shred of doubt, then fine but there is way too much doubt at this point to not grant him a retrial. Hopefully one day he’ll get his day back in court.
Cellphone pinging right at Leaking Park on the day it was said Hae was buried.
This case is so complex and at this point I don’t think it will ever be solved there’s so many different stories that people have
Its been solved
@@michaelkennedy3372 it’s yielded a conviction but it’s not solved. Someone being convicted doesn’t mean it’s solved. Look at the many many wrongful convictions that get thrown out constantly.
It's not. If you have any stoner or druggie friends, they can talk, tell a story, and escape the truth (with a little bit of influence). Sayeed has had plenty of chances to speak his side of the truth but chose not to. If it's hopeful that the truth will reveal itself, I'm sure not until all sides of the story are on the table. This guy can pretend to be concerned, magnanimous and forthcoming but hasn't done a thing to help progress his own side. That is if he is innocent and all..
@@madxmaxxine6552 idk, I feel like he has told his side of this story via these podcasts. Testifying on the witness stand in your own trial is never recommended by any lawyer, innocent or guilty.
seems simple to me, jay did it
"My daughter is buried in my heart. I don't know where to go to hear her. I don't know where to go to see her." 😭😭😭 so heart wrenching 💔 😢
yeah I felt that to I hope Hee family will get peace
💔💔💔
Jurors need to be reminded every day all the damn time, it seems, that a) defendants are presumed INNOCENT until the prosecution can prove beyond ANY reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Too many jurors forget that very important right and expect the defendant to prove the story the prosecution makes up false. It doesn’t matter how perfectly the story prosecution tells fits the narrative. If they can’t prove with absolutely zero doubt that their story is true, the defendant is INNOCENT. b) defendants RARELY get up on the stand. The defense lawyer does not want the prosecution to have a chance at cross examination and to ask questions that they can spin to make the defendant sound guilty easier. It almost always goes badly when a defendant testifies for themselves. Even the most innocent person has to be coached endlessly to be ready for cross. It is NOT suspicious if they don’t testify and YOU WERE TOLD not to consider that they don’t! Good job admitting you ignored your own duty!
I think Adnan might’ve done it but the case they made is nowhere near air tight. The reasonable doubt in this case is beyond overwhelming.
If I had been part of the jury I wouldn’t have been able to convict him beyond reasonable doubt because I am riddled with doubt when it comes to this case.
I don’t know if he did it or not, but I do know that there isn’t enough evidence (direct evidence especially) to place him at the scene of the crime.
Clearly none of you have served on a jury. The Prosecutor and the defense will define what "reasonable doubt" means. It doesn't mean that you have to prove 100% that he/she did commit the crime. They will say that if you can go home and lay your head down at night and not feel like you got it wrong the that is proof "beyond reasonable doubt"
Anthony Westerman
Maybe the US has a different definition of “beyond reasonable doubt”. Where I’m from, this case is full of reasonable doubt. I even got my sister and my mom (both lawyers) and my aunt (former Chief Justice) to look into it and give their opinion on this case and they agreed that there is plenty of reasonable doubt.
The little amounts of forensic evidence in this case is so concerning like this happened late 90s it’s not unusual for forensics to be involved and they should’ve been
Thankful for the kind gestures from the adults back then
Wow I thought I was the only one who puts nail polish on so I can pick it off. Super glue too. I know, weird
Jay had to have done it. He knows so much and he is soooo quick to throw Adnan under the bus and minimize his own involvement.
STRANG3R U LOV3 definitely
what is his motive? if he did it Adnan paid him to do it
I think Jay and Adnan both did it but since Adnan is trying to maintain his “I’m innocent” scheme he can’t tell everyone the part Jay didn’t tel them, I feel like Adnan took all the blame for it, but Jay was more involved he just doesn’t want his community to get backlash from him being a murderer
find interviews with jay, i thought the same thing before reading his perspective. adnan very likely did it
I know I am echoing the comments thus far but had to say this podcast is an incredible piece of journalism mixed with a beautiful dose of humanity resulting in award winning content. What I truly admire is that the journalist in her tells such a well balanced and impeccably documented story of such tragic events. But it is the human compassion that she brings to her work that makes this story so real and the people involved so relatable and human. The two moments that really got to me during this episode was the Korean proverb that Hey’s mother said at the sentencing of Anon which was absolutely heart wrenching and Anon’s description of the small moments of kindness he received from strangers and friends that he experienced during some of the worst moments of his life. It is these delicate pieces of information that are added to the overall story showing her deep understanding of the human experience that makes her an incredibly talented human being!
Imagine a life of being falsely convicted to life in prison...
That has to be my absolute worst nightmare
Imagine killing your ex girlfriend and not having the sack to admit to it
Idk about falsely, this reads as unjustly to me. Just because it might not be exactly like in state case doesn't mean he couldnt be a part of murder :/
My main question is why did someone want hae dead like at the end of the day why was she chosen especially if adnan had moved on
tbh it was probably a random serial killer
Natalie Brown i wouldn’t say random, a lot of shady shit happened and I feel jay and the girls weren’t telling their full story’s behind a potential motive
@@alyssahewlett8094 yeah I think it was Jay tbh
@@nataliebrown3193 I don’t think it could’ve been because jay was definitely involved
@@nataliebrown3193 We know that's not the case because Jay showed the police exactly where Hae's car was when the Police had so much trouble finding it. That alone shows us this was not a mere coincidence between a random serial killer and Hae, Jay and Adnan's weird circumstances.
Confused me as to how people think Adnon is guilty. Nothing we've heard says that he did it. The only person lying and doing shady things is Jay. This should still be an investigation at most IMO. With all the lies, Jay shouldn't have been credible enough to gain a conviction. If somebody lies this much in 2022, no way anybody would believe them, let alone get this conviction.
Yeah the way they do things now is a lot different than the 90s. I can't really tell if Adnan is guilty or not, but with this evidence and lack of consistency from their only witness, he should have never been convicted.
Cellphone towers. Leaking Park. On the day it was said Hae was killed. What an unfortunate coincidence for Adnan.
Why would Jay help move the body and then tell the police? Jay’s actions are extremely suspect. His story changes numerous times even up until trial. It wouldn’t be the first time someone approaches police with a story and inserts someone else in their place as the killer. It has happened more than people think. It’s not so far fetched that Adnan is innocent. Hell, even the innocent get executed and after their death some officials decide to investigate their claims and even exonerate them. By then it’s to little to late. If they believe he is truly guilty then taking another look into the case shouldn’t be an issue. It would only further solidify their original conviction. However, there are some officials that do not want cases reinvestigated because of the possibility that they were wrong
Ah those pings, Adnan... those pings at Leaking Park... was the universe conspiring against you? Of all places Leaking Park?? Of all days, on that day??? The cellphone towers, Adnan. Everything else is blurry, but the cellphone towers? In Leaking Park?? Come on... I want to believe you so much. You're so eloquent and your confidence, tone of voice, so friendly and convincing. But those pings...
Your very happy;almost excited when you talk to/about or hear any glimmer of hope that he is innocent,I really think you might of getting caught up in the hype that you might get him off for murder. Too me he is definitely guilty and it is very plain to see
This reminds me of 12 angry men, it's surreal
He says “I’m not doubting anyone’s sincerity.” Sounds like he is telling us that he was doubting someone’s sincerity, perhaps even his own. After they arrest him, I think he is genuine when he says that he believed that he would be going home. I don’t know if that was because he was a naive, innocent 17 year old, or if he thought he was outsmarting the police. He remains optimistic throughout though, like he doesn’t quite know the gravity of the situation. I understand what he says about making a plea deal, and I think he mentions that because he wishes he could do the same. Might be too distressing to relive it all over again in court....regardless of guilt. He doesn’t want to let up that he is innocent. He has to be “a good Muslim” especially in the eyes of his family to lessen their suffering. At the same time, he assumed this family would stand by him if he were to admit guilt. He compares living with his parents to being a ward of the state. He is clearly accustomed to being however he needs to be...adaptable...in order to look like whatever suits the situation. In an aside, I tend to think Christa’s account would be pretty accurate, and important, because she actually wrote it all down. The plot thickens!
Andan and Jay both did it, Jay only snitched about what Adnan did which is why Adnan was at leakin park at night on Janurary the 13th. Also, some of Jay's cellphone records didn't ping in the right place meaning some of the places he says he was at the time were lies. One of the biggest lies jay told was when he said he was somewhere else but he pinged to be near where Hae's car was found. I think he was helping get rid of the car. They both did it but Jay decided to blame it on Adnan so that Jay wouldn't also go prison. I just think there's more evidence that it was Jay that did it, and less evidence that it was Adnan. I also don't trust Jen's involvement in this.
I am having to listen to this for school and I agree with you about Adnan while he doesn’t seem innocent he doesn’t seem as guilty as Jay. Jay changed his story, was quick to snitch, and threw away his clothes and the shovels that were used in the murder.
Spot on
I think Jay killed hae and adnan knew he did. I think Jae testified in the position of adnan so everything Jay was saying should be from Adnan’s point of view
I agree they both collaborated
This is a great podcast! Koenig does quite the dance around Occam's razor.
Ted Bundy was handsome and charming too
Seriously, Marcia that's the point you think they're making in this episode/the series so far?
@@spinalcrackerbox no I meant that not all monsters look like a monster.
Its a good point. When Koenig points out that people around Adnan and Hae didn't observe public, possesive or angry behavior during or after their relationship - that doesn't mean Adnan wasn't that way in private with Hae, which Hae alludes to at one point in her diary.
This series is riveting - thank you!
38:38 yes brother, we make the biggest, stupidest mistake by not listening to our rab, our creator... he loves us more than anyone, he's our biggest well wisher, if He ☝️tells us don't do this or do that, it's for our own good. But he cared for you, he put you through all this to make you a better Muslim, so you don't face torment in hereafter. He'll reward you for your patience. That part made me so emotional.
I think koening did it its obvious people
wake up
facts
Omg lol😂
this episode was very emotional
💔
😭😭
So ultimately, the time of death is way off!!!!
Sarah K did it
My thaught exactly
I wasn't prepared for the truth
So if there’s no phone at the Best Buy then that breaks the case so much like what???
None of the people that could've helped Adnon we're at trial or mostly not contacted further. I wonder why.
This podcast series, and the whole case for that matter, is a study in confirmation bias. Both sides are guilty of it, but perhaps especially this podcast. If this, if that and if the other thing, then maybe the state's narrative might not be true, therefore he's definitely not guilty. I understand that the burden of proof rests on the state and raising the "ifs" can result in reasonable doubt and acquittal. However, I think the alternatives in this case are not strong enough or well supported enough to overcome the key elements of the state's case and do not constitute reasonable doubt. Nevertheless, the podcast is still very well organized and interesting to listen to.
His life in prison sounds better than mine...
@@laurenbarcelo9799 why not? eh I live in a 100 square foot flat and work 14-20 hours per day... what's he doing...
@@laurenbarcelo9799 yeah i can see where you're coming from. he will always suffer bad karma for his bad deed
C’mon Melody!!!
Jay is really the one who had physical evidence though how in the world would they not have a thing for physical evidence on this man and put him in jail for life
Good responsible student is missing for almost a month, and her smart friends were shocked she was found dead. How? Can anyone explain how would they think she would turn up, she hadnt run away before, she hasn't obviously been staying or in contact with them..
Jay literally strangled his gf and threatened to kill her and yet he's free? They are both guilty imo
8:56, when she says the problem with what jay says, she needs to remember he was high at the time
Understandable, when listening i almost feel like she holds double standards with this. In the past she has defended Adnan using the but he was high but the thing is, is that Adna isn’t claiming to remember anything. Jay is spitting all these accusations and stories onto Adnan. If hew can recall on these details (not only the big ones little ones as well) then he should be able to remember the other parts as well.
Sarah should just ask Adnan for the details.. he did it
He had no motive I dont think he did
michael palmer He absolutely had motive.
Which was? (honest question, I still don't think there's enough on this podcast alone to point the finger at anyone with concrete evidence/support--a "smoking gun" per say)
Adnan's motive was anger and jealousy after being dumped by Hae for an older, better guy whom he had suspected her of cheating on him with. Adnan was possessive and controlling when he & Hae were together, per her diaries and her friend Debbie's testimony. Hae dumped him one last time for good and told him enough is enough, it's time to move on via note. On that note he wrote "I am going to kill."
This would've been a fairly easy motive for the state to demonstrate.
I initially believed in Adnans innocence. But now after listening to a fair amount of behavioural interviewing.. I believe Adnan belongs behind bars. He is where he belongs. I think Jay had more to do with the murder than he admits to.. but Adnan seems guilty to me now.
He said he’s there for his own stupid actions? Hell if I’m innocent I’d be going crazy!!
I think you would act casual too if you knew you were guilty deep down inside.
Even people who have spent decades wrongfully imprisoned and are later exonerated by DNA evidence or whatever other methods seem to eventually come to a place of peace, calm, and even just being used to being locked up. It doesn't mean they are guilty. Can you imagine spending years, decades, just being extremely angry and worked up but with your poor, unfair circumstances likely never changing? You would go crazy. Or, like some people do, eventually kill yourself. I pray I'm never in that kind of situation, but if I ever were, I would hope to not add to the misery by being angry and bitter throughout. Coming to terms with and coming to be more calm about the situation is something of a very understandable survival technique.
Also, damned if you do, damned if you don't. If Adnad had come off too angry and impassioned in these conversations, folks would twist that into confirming his guilt. Or they would say some ish like, "a truly innocent person wouldn't get so upset talking about this or always be on such the defensive." I think people in this situation really can't win.
@@reinajalana for real either way they would seem guilty
Just by point out Hae’s car to the police Jay is involved in one way or another. Why not start there. To me there are three suspects. Jay, Stephanie and Adnan. In my opinion, Jay seems too fishy and this sounds like he framed Adnan but I could be wrong.
I’m convinced Adnan did it.
Why?
Thinking he did it and being convinced are very different things.
@@alexandercanella4479 how?
@@SuperMegaGoofyGoober convinced means you believe it with certainty
So Adnan tried calling the detective 🤔. Seems very odd, like he wants more information in order to know if they are catching on to him. Also when the investigators where interrogating him, they showed him a picture of Hae. His reaction was oh they trying to make me talk. Trying to get me to admit it. I gotta outsmart these guys. Was he not sad that Hae was killed? Was he not angry that they were accusing him of killing someone he loved? He doesn’t seem at all saddened by this death. The nurse even said it looked like he was faking his emotions. Idk seems odd
But he also cried multiple times including at Iesha house and held a memorial for her
WHERE IS HEY'S BF (that older guy)??? I'm literally just speculating here, but what if Adnan left his phone in Jay's car for a bit when they smoked weed before track practice and Jay did help bury Hey but he helped someone else (the BF no one talks about idk) and Adnan was just the perfect target to pin this on! Maybe Nisha was called through Adnan's phone on purpose to create this evidence. IDKKK. Maybe Stephanie's life was in danger if Adnan wasn't framed. I dont knowwwwwwwww
“Who can I blame but myself?” His explanation as to why he said this sounds like he was lying. I think it was a slip of the tongue.
Adnan did it-end of story
milart12 yeah that seems to be the only likely explanation... BUT i do think it so much more interesting to think he DIDN'T do it... and that's the thing i find so compelling about this case...it's that there will always be that 1% chance that he is innocent...after all there is no actual physical evidence (like DNA or shit like that) that proves he did it...all we have are witness accounts (and a very erratic witness at that) and circumstancial evidence...
Trevor Noah thats my problem wit cases like this where people,jus go ohh clearly guilty like yeah most likely prolly is but we can't lower the standard of sending,people to life in,jail without physical,evidence and a unreliable witness to me,if there is the tiniest .004% chance some1 didn't,do it imo they shouldn't,go,to,jail and maybe murderers will get away n some will say that's injustice but if 1 inonnecent,person goes,to,jail that is way worse to me most,criminals will do something again n,get caught, there is plenty of cases where the only clear suspect with the only motive n seemed clearly guilty even wit "evidence" n they spend,20 years in,jail cuz well who else,woulda done,it only to find out wit dna ohh yeah that's right people kill strangers all the time duhh they have no motive other than they wanna kill some1 and this case is extremely similar 2 alot of those cases where coincidence even,if,he did say imma kill her n then,she died dont,mean,shit stranger things have hapoened. The only difference is in those cases they tested for DNA. So now bottle the rope anything could be what proved his,innocence or guilt but they knew they didn't need it to convince some dummies in bmore to convict. That's what most,people dont get they jus go oh pssh ex gf dead he did it , and our justice system can't be brought down to that level of literally less than 2 hours deliberation and GUILTY.
This could be true, although I would suspect Jay way much over Adnan because he made a point to instantly point fingers toward Adnan and Jay could’ve been either jealous or trying to stop from getting into other legal trouble because of him being a drug dealer. He tried make it seem like he had no part of it at all, except for knowing about what happened.
What if it was someone so powerful that Jay was debted to and they all framed Adnan!
Why is this adnan guy talking so much now but chose to stay silent during the court trial??
Is it because he knew he was guilty along with jay and didn't want to be trapped?
It's the opposite. Innocent people get tricked by crafty lawyers all the time. A lot of prosecutors are damn good at their job. I'm not saying hes innocent. Only that your reasonings are terrible.
He was a 17 year kid. And his lawyer prob told him why he should t and he listened.
Actually the judge did not allow him to get up on the stand and defend himself. Sara mentions this in the episode before this one towards the last few mins.
Did you not even watch the previous episodes? He wasn't allowed to. Honestly, you're so quick to judge him for it, there's no hard evidence that he did it. Karma will come back to you and you might see yourself in a situation like this.
@@aaronfalk8562 agreed
Adnan didn’t do it.
Lends Jay his car and phone but says they weren’t good friends! Ok buddy
Has anyone ever thought that maybe jay had to have made a move at Hae cause he was jealous of Adnan and Stephs friendship maybe he thought it was more and he wanted to put adnan in his place and tried to bang his chick and Hae wasn’t having it and she was going to tell Steph so jay had to kill her so she wouldn’t tell
You know that could be possible...
THATS WHAT IVE BEEN THINKING
For starters Hae wasn't Adnan's chick. Hae was Don's chick. Damn do you really think Jay is some Machiavellian killer? Because from the limited tapes that are played here I don't hear that level of a sophistication from Jay.
@@anthonywesterman4166 Even though Hae wasn't Adnan's "chick," she was still someone close to him that he cared about so Jay still could have tried to get with her.
If he was worried about the police seeing the weed in his car, as u say, then he could've just moved the weed out of his car.
You're not a stoner are you...
Does anyone else feel like it might have been adnan and Stephanie who did it and Jays been covering for her all these years. It would explain why his story kept changing but how he knew exactly where Haes car was. It would explain why Stephanie stayed with him throughout the trial. It would explain why Jay was so frustrated that Adnan is still denying guilt. It would explain why Stephanie shut down and would refuse to discuss the case with anyone. It’s also corroborate by Jay’s friends who said he would do anything to protect her. Idk just a thought😐
Aliyah M that’s interesting, I thought the same thing except with Jay and Jen. They had a story and Jen stuck to it while jay kept switching up
Maybe Stephanie was jealous of Hae. She says she needed a ride somewhere, kills her, they get into an argument that goes to far, kills her, calls jay and he helps hide her until they could dunk the body later. That’s why he knows so much and is quick to make sure Adnan goes down for it. That actually makes alot of sense. Can anyone account for where Stephanie was that day?
Aaron Falk Exactly. No one has and Stephanie has completely clammed up in regards to the entire situation. No one ever explored that route because Jay took that whole side of the blame. However I’m not sure Stephanie really had any motivation to commit this crime on her own. Not only that but I don’t think it’s likely that she had the physical strength to overpower Hae and strangle her to death. I definitely feel like Adnan was part of it. No matter how it’s framed he’s the only one who had real motivation to kill Hae, and in such an intimate way. Stephanie being so close to him may have agreed to help dispose of the body and clean up evidence. She could have panicked once the police began to close in on Adnan told Jay who given his reputation was the perfect guy to take her role in the crime and has refused to speak about it ever since. Also if Adnan and Jay both respectively loved her like they claim the did it makes sense as to why they hadn’t said anything about her. I’m wondering though, what do you think Stephanie was jealous of and why?
@@Z6221-t3t theories like this is why ppl like Stephanie don't speak up. They'll get brought up in even more hypothetical scenarios that have no merit. The more you talk the more you're likely to get dragged.
@@obaidbaig2058 As I said, just a thought. If we’re to theoretically analyze this case and determine whether we as individuals believe that Adnan is guilty or not alternate theories are apt to develop. Furthermore, the same thing you said can be argued about a guilty party. Not saying that’s what she is but it goes both ways.
Is this available on Spotify
Yes.
Everyone is suspected Adnan and Jay. I think it was Don.
Suspecting
I can see that. She went to see him, maybe to tell him she was still in love with Adnan and he flipped?
So dum.
His alibi that he was at work, I wonder if they checked cameras bc anyone could of clocked him in. Plus someone saw scratches on him which is interesting, bc there’s no way some one is gonna let you strangle them unless you do it from behind.
@@rickabeauxx7420 he was at work. His manager verified it…. The manager was his mother.
Anyone watch True Detective season 3? I bring it up because we all love conspiracy theories no matter how improbable. True Detective 3 reminds us that 99.9% of the time the answer (no matter how much we want it to be a otherwise) is the simple one. No vast conspiracy between Jay, Don, and the police. Adnan did it. Sarah can't see this because she's obviously crushing on this guy. She's down to taking the word of an obvious stoner that there was no pay phone at Best Buy (who is telling this to her years later) over trained police officers who were there in the moment with no motive to frame Adnan.
By that logic that show would've ended with them finding a child abuser, the "simplest answer"
@@amphitheatre If you're talking about True Detective....they did. I'd say kidnapping a little girl and drugging her to pretend she's your daughter would qualify as child abuse. Causing a little boy to fall and hit his head against a rock so hard it killed him...child abuse. There was no vast conspiracy of pedophiles trafficking children in TD 3 like most viewers thought. Just like in Adnan's case. You have what seems to be a decent enough guy snap in the moment, kill his girlfriend, then try to cover it up. Simplest answer. By the end Sara admits their was a pay phone inside Best Buy and they float the idea of a serial killer. Grasping at straws. Jay knew where Hae's car was so he was in on at least the dumping of the body. Adnan never called her after she was dead because he knew she was dead. Adnan makes a slip in one of his calls to Sara stating there were no skin cells or DNA under her fingernails because Hae never fought back...who but the killer would know this. Lastly Adnan has never accounted for his whereabouts during the time of the murder for one reason...he can't...his alibi is that he was choking Hae Lee to death. If the argument is no jury could get past reasonable doubt with only circumstantial evidence...well that's at least better than he's innocent.
@@50farmers Adnan says he was at the library across the street from the school during the time of the murder.
@@Lamelizcat No actually the library alibi came from another person...it's in an earlier segment. The girl who provided the alibi says something like her boyfriend was jealous she was talking to Adnan. When pressed though the girl could not recall if this occurred on the day of the murder or not. Adnan only brought up the library alibi after this girl came up with it.
The cops may not have had "motive to frame Adnan" but you're way off base thinking that they didn't have an immense amount of pressure to solve that case as quickly as possible. And once detectives have someone in their sights, confirmation bias, ego and the sunk cost fallacy in regards to time/effort will ensure that rationality and evidence will go right out the window a lot of the times. With that said, I have no idea if this guy is guilty mainly just because that Jay guy (who does seem shady as shit) knew exactly where the car was. So who knows in this case, but cops aren't as infallible as you'd think.
So what’s going on with this case adman syed
When do we blame parents/religion?
for the sexism? good question, when is murdering a woman going to be classified as a hate crime
While I don’t think he did it…I just can’t for the life of me, figure out how he can recount every detail of the interrogation, but can’t recall other important matters.
I think it goes back to her topic in the 1st episode. An interrogation is memorable because its scary, in front of intimidating police, etc,. However, the day they need him to remember was insignificant up until i’m sure he got notice that Hai was missing.. I’m confused on how he allowed Jay to have his car and or phone? Did someone steal his phone to frame him? It’s just a lot😖
I was just thinking that if they both had listened to their parents and focused on their schooling ...maybe things would be different
🎶Cago Cago Cago 🎶
what? there was an outgoing call to ayeesha or however it's spelled. right? that was the one friend they couldn't attribute to Jay calling at the time Jay was supposed to have had the phone. seems like the phone records are just off on the times
Cell phones records are not off towers can be but not call logs or time when calls are made or outgoing
actually they found a fax that says all incoming call towers are not accurate and may not be used to provide accurate location. it's only accurate for out going calls to bill correctly. 1999 cell towers are way less accurate than these days
this women has tunnel vision open your eyes girl
Oh go away. Your comments are so irrelevant under each episode.
Also, if she has tunnel vision so do you. Don't you see it 😂
33:07 that was heartbreaking... 💔
Adnan did it unfortunately he'll never admit to it
Glad he's about to get off in 2022.
How did you know?
@@legoninja9004 honestly bro, the traction this story was picking up was almost way too much to keep him locked up in my opinion. I don't remember this case and I usually remember a lot of old cases from watching things like 20/20 and dateline with my granny as a kid so it just seemed to me that a case like this couldn't go unnoticed for much being that the podcast was years old and the right people still hasn't heard it yet.
@@TLR1988 whats your thoughts on the whole situation 🤔
@@legoninja9004 I'll be Terrance with you,I hate that Adnon "can't remember the day" but then again I'm around his age and there's days I guess I don't remember so that being said and sorry for the long post but I feel that because his trial was so bad and 1 sided, he shouldn't have been convicted but with all the years served, he should've been released years ago in my opinion but if he played a part in the murder then he's served his time I suppose but I do know that the friend should've definitely been serving time with him because he was clearly there. He lied so much and no one cared, not even his friends and family years later and I know that because they've all at least seen the series and never spoke out. He lied so much that I 74% believe Adnon is innocent and if so should be paid for the years lost. I hope to never know anyone or myself be put in a situation like that.
@@TLR1988 agree 100%
Jay's story is falling apart.
He's evil.
14:29 She would turn up dead and her body would be found ? Thats so sus. Why would you say that ?
But wait.the girlfriend of Jay is called Stephanie, as in the prom princess who was mentioned in Hae Mins diary? Who was somehow dumped by Adnan to be with Hae? Crazy theory: Stephanie was in love with Adan and more than jealous of Hae, so she
got somehow in contact with Jay, ending up
planning to murder Hae Min and blaming it on
Adan as a punishment? The dna found on the
wheel in Haes car, could be Stephanies, who parked it there, so the story would make sense?
you're a troll cutting and pasting the same drivel on every video
Maybe Adnan's parents did it!
No, he did
Luis Felipe Sauvalle Torres
We don’t know that
@@astouaiisha As long as we weren't there, no, we don't. Yet, it has been "established" us such. :P
Lol 🤣😂🤣
How can Adnan or his family let a public defender to represent him ?
That was such a fatal move. I blame his representation for all of this. Sometime I feel I could have represented Adnan better than than Gutierrez or the Public defender.
Adnan was not trained properly to take up the stand in the court. How can you apologize in the court Adnan, How can the public defender accept that it was a crime of passion of adnan, what was wrong with that moron.
How did he accept Adnan as a criminal your own client, those were the last few nails in Adnan's coffin.
This story is getting tragic. Such miscarriage of justice. He was totally taken down by surprise by these hounds of our justice system, the cops, the investigators, the lawyers, the judge. Even blood tears are not enough if you hear about this tragic story of Adnan.
They should have contacted CAIR or some good seasoned lawyer. It all went down because he was raw teenager, and Jay came prepared with his story polished, Adnan got bad representation, he didnt had lawyer initially. Those are the take aways, dont every do these mistakes guys specially if you are from colored, black, brown, Muslim, minority group dont talk to cops without a lawyer.
Sarah is just trying hard to make Adnan innocent in this episode.
Where's the Zach Sherwin line?
how else is this guy ment to act in talking to people of he doesnt sound like a good guy he has no chance of being released and if he shows hes 2nd side he staying put ....its not rocket science stop talking to Adnan he wont change he always gonna come across as the good guy
100% jay killed hay for revenge and put aman in jail. He had an accomplice and fabricated all the evidence. He had another person with him who switched later when Aman and jay would later meet up.
Jay was upset his girlfriend and aman were close and flirty with eachother. Jay sold drugs and they may have had problems that might have added up later. Jay thought aman would be a threat to him. He fabricated the story and set up the scene to kill hay.
You are falling for the podcast bias .. theres nothing against jay but i fo feel both are involved, made a deal but jay just betrayed adnan n got his ass saved thats it
Adnan's innocent
It is painful to say this, but he is guilty as sin
Maybe less than 1% chance
Out of sheer curiosity do any of you care to elaborate on your reasoning? On whether or not Adnan is guilty or innocent?
No way
I was in shock when you said he didn’t go up there to testify and defend himself. That was the dumbest move ever and sealed his faith !!!!!
it is far too dangerous, i wouldn't take the stand either, lawyers would run rings around me, most inmates are locked up due their own stupidity
Adnan is sick, truly disturbing. He talks about prison as if he's cool
Agreed. He’s a psychopath and it’s so transparent.
J’espère que c’est pas lui
This is weird and I don’t want to do it, 2019!!!
Stephenie was in love with Adnan so she killed Hae but because Jay was in love with Stephanie , he couldn’t let her go to prison. To kill two birds 🦅, in one stone, he framed Adnan and kept Stephanie out of prison. That way he gets his love and gets rid of his competition that is why he suspicious and why Stephanie is not talking to anyone.
So she just decided to do it the day adnan gave him his phone and car ? Lol u watch too much tv
@@iamlocksmiththe time of death and burial is not accurate... so you never know...
Are you basing this on the lividity? Then you have a screw loose.@@truth3554
Adnans innocent. Insha'Allah he'll get out xx
I believe him
same
*cago... cago... cago... cago...*
Why didn’t you ask the cops this question about not checking the pay phone at BestBuy? Adnan is a great manipulator.
There was no wrestling match that day she is misremembering
14:56
This Yahoo commercial sounding, uplifting type piano music is so unfitting for this series, it irks me. This is depressing, and morbid, not uplifting
It’s not supposed to be uplifting i think supposed to be unsettling the high notes from the piano combined with the low notes from the base are meant to throw you off as your subconscious is trying to figure out what’s making both sounds now I’m not a musical theorist but that’s my two cents
Adnan’s innocent I think
Man didn't testify for 23 years wtf😂😭😂 nah that's on him, L taken
Nah just trolling🤣
Adnan and Jay are protecting Stephanie
8:15
30:40
I think this whole case is very sloppy !!! To the time line when the girl got killed, the lawyer Adnan was garbage , the cops over look alot of thing cus they was in a hurry to bring in the killer ; and why did Jay didnt get any time is beyond me at the very least probation. I believe Adnan is guilty !! I just think it was a very sloppy invistigation from the start in a hurry to convict someone for the crime!! Jay might be a liar but tht doesnt make him a killer , i 💯% think Jay was there when Adnan killed his ex girlfriend, Jay has no connection to the guy tht found the body and hes not connected to Don the new boyfriend but hes is connected to Adnan ; No one know where the car was only Jay did !!!!