I have seen the HBO special and listened to the podcast and feel more conflicted than ever. The HBO special put Adnan in a different light but this podcast makes me wonder a lot whether he's guilty. Cases like this tear myvhead apart...
Coincidences: 1) I will kill note found 2)Butt Dial to Niesha 3)Someone murdered Adnans Ex-Girlfriend 4)Someone murdered his exgirlfriend the day he lent his car and the newly purchased phone. 5)His friend was involved in the murder and was able to mastermind and fool authorities and frame him at the age of 18. 6)He conveniently forgets important details. 7) Independent witnesses statin Adnan was asking weird that day 8)Asked Hae for a ride the day she disappeared. Its too much.
This should have more likes. Its all very important, plus Jay said he did it, and others around jay collarate his story. And the cell phone pings near where the body was found, plus more...
I am thinking that Jay and Ronald are linked somehow. Ronald here is some third hitman guy who did actually killed hay and threated Jay of snitching and Syed was high whole day so can't remember correctly or was made to high. Why Jay was in on this is a big ?
@@pranjalahluwalia LITERALLY I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE! I feel like Jay drugged Adnan with something other than weed fr, he kept asking how to make his high go away and the fact that he could have been UTI is maybe why he can't rememebr??
Ya I felt that and did they ever drug screen anon. I mean he seem to smoke often but that was out of it. Could have been laced. And why no one ever ask did Jay purposely place a call to someone he didn't know
This cases has so many holes, if it weren’t for it, we would known who was responsible for Hae’s death. Not having DNA checking to see who’s marks, hands where used to strangle Hae. No checking for marks on the suspects because Hae did fought back. Not checking for the phone boot that jay was talking about Or library logs where supposedly Adnan was seen. Or even getting finger prints of the cell phone, to see who had it. Recovering the gloves Jay dispose of I can go on and on. There’s just not enough evidence to convict someone on this case, just many holes and red flags.
I agree! The only issue is #1 this was in the 90s so dna analysis was not as extensive as it is today, #2 they started asking questions and investigating 6 weeks after the girl was killed. So the disposed glives and the library logs were long gone by that point. But i totally see where you are coming from!
My big take away from this is that I dont know if Adnan did it, but one thing is for sure, police and investigators botched this so bad that Adnan can never be proved guilty beyond doubt, and if he didnt do it then we will never know who actually did, and that Hae will never have true justice.
@@taytay8283 he was just released since they found withheld evidence that would have helped adnans case for innocence. They are most likely going to look into this much more now since if Adnan is innocent now who is the real killer
What I find crazy is Jay admitted to doing it and got a slap on the wrist. Part of me thinks he did it alone or just not with Adnan, and I've been saying that since episode 2.
@@taytay8283 that means nothing in this instance. The jurors weren't given all the evidence and there wasn't enough evidence to convict Adnan anyway. There's also the possibility of bias among the jury
The ONLY tangible fact in this case , in my eyes at least , is that JAY knew where Hae’s car was . That he knew where the car was so why are police believing him that Adnan put the car there.. look at it plainly for what it is Jay to the police to the car , he had knowledge only the killer would and he connected himself to the murder at least as far as police investigation standards Jay would be the suspect at the very least .
The police were clearly interested in Jay at one point. When they interviewed him, they grilled him repeatedly on his story and how strange it was for him to help Adnan bury the body. They were just as confused as we are by the fact that he didn't quickly come to police and confess. But the fact is no evidence points to Jay as the murderer, AND he had no motive, AND his testimony is corroborated by physical evidence (the location of the car and the broken turn signal indicator, neither of which the police knew about before he showed them) and witness testimony/police interviews (Nisha, Jen, Cathy, police officers, medical examiners, Josh's interview in this episode, etc).
Andro mache I am revisiting this case, so, I busted out my little notebook of theories from a couple years ago, and I just want to say how impressed I am with YOURS. Some of the things you feel Adnan must’ve felt towards Don seem spot on, to me. There was more than just that, but I am sincerely impressed. I read it twice!!-and that notebook of “my” theories was made a little stronger. Haha. Kudos, internet friend.
I'm so conflicted. On one hand Adnan looks guilty and if u believe he is guilty then you also have to belive he is just trying to work the system and find a way out but last November he turned down a deal with the state. The deal was Adnan had to serve 4 more years (which is nothing when you already served 20) and go to court and admit to the court and his family that he lied and he's been lying for all these years. He turned it down because it wasn't a full exoneration which is what he wants because he maintains he is innocent. My thinking is a guilty man would have taken that deal if he was truly guilty because he would know that that could and probably was his only chance...I dunno but this case is fascinating
why would he..where would he go even if he was out of prison, his whole community will despise him, he wont be able to look his mom in the eye, all his fame and million supporters will disappear..he is already in prison for 20 years, has himself said he gets along with everyone and 20 years is a long time..its almost his comfort zone now..he would rather take the odds to get out of prison in sometime with some or other technical glitch in court system and all his supporters
Interesting considering that he, by his own admission, is always telling other inmates to take the deal. But honestly even a guilty person would take that deal. Unless they were fairly certain something better could happen. It’s usually a game of what’s the best option. If he knew there was a good chance he could get less time or exonerated he would go that route.
It doesn't make sense for adnan or his family to threaten Jay. I think Jay is covering up for the real murderer and found Adnan an easy target to blame the crime on.
@@MissAlexis911 What if Jay was jealous Adnan was so close to Stephanie? What if he helped someone that did have a motive? Don could've been mad she was still close with Adnan, or maybe he helped another girl. Didn't have to be a man. He also could be this big sociopath and got a free kill knowing just who to pin it on. I see where this person is coming from. After Jay shows up they didn't try anything else, even after he tells multiple stories.
I think everyone comes to these kinds of conclusions because they're listening to something being covered in a way that makes you want it to be juicy. You can't have listened to 8+ hours of a podcast about evidence in a case and it actually turn out that the original person did it. Why would something like that be presented to you in such a compelling manner? That doesn't fit with all of the murder mysteries and TV shows on people being acquitted. Honestly I think Adnon might have done it. I dont know that there should have been a conviction with the evidence but the system is far from the ideal we want it to be. I don't think Jay or anyone else in the story did it.
Awesome investigation. I just want to say thank you to SERIAL for bringing us this mind boggling true story. I can't imagine how exhausting this must be for the crew. I appreciate the hard work that must go into this podcast. Keep kicking ass and keep bringing it!
This case is so frustrating. I've listened to this podcast SO many times over the years. I just watched the HBO docuseries, so I listened to this again. I don't know if he did it. But I don't believe there was enough evidence to even bring him to trial, no less convict him. Makes no sense to me. And all these years later they still haven't run DNA. He deserves at least, another trial. It makes me want to scream.
Imo I don't know if Adnan did it, but he and Jay def know who did because of how they knew where the car was. At least Jay surely did. And at some point Adnan feels bad in the podcast (in an earlier episode) about his luck etc, but I think he probably knows who or what led to her death and that's why he feels bad. Jay def knows more than he told, if he knows where the car was, and Adnan didn't push him enough because maybe they both know more. Other guesses, they were both drugged and are blur about who did what. Bleh. But loved the podcast!!
@@Aliasgher1993 Jay didn't know where the car was, the cops told him, and Adnan feels bad because he knows what exactly brought him here, he knows Allah put him through all this to make him a better Muslim, he was completely astray.
Everyone that's bummed out by the resolution might be watching too many cop shows. This is a real story, and reality isn't always going to tie itself up neatly after 23 minutes and two commercial breaks.
if it was truly solved and had an ending, noone would be listening..same for making a murderer, if it was clear he did it the show would have never been fixed
I posted on an earlier episode I stated Jay seemed more likely to have committed the crime and i believe that even more so now. If you want to look at motives: Jay: jealous of Adnon (why I will state in a second). Adnon jilted ex. Jay's seems more plausible. Going back to episode 1 we have to remember Jay dated Adnon's friend Stephanie. Stephanie's parents liked Adnon and not Jay. Then Adnon remembered to get Stephanie a birthday present and Jay did not. Then Adnon asked Jay what he got Stephanie and offered to help Jay go get Stephanie one. To a "street-savvy older guy" that would probably embarrass or piss him off. Then, gets Adnons PHONE and CAR , barely knowing each other? Adnon was younger and probably more naive and since the purpose could have been to accommodate Stephanies birthday. On to facts. Adnon has been pretty consistent whereas Jay has not. Statistics show guilty people are either word for word consistent like they rehearsed it or change the story a lot. The shovels were Jay's. Jay. not Adnon (that I heard) ditched his clothes etc and wiped down the shovels. Jay had way more opportunity and time to commit the murders whereas as you even found would be very difficult to do (but is possible). Also, all the calls to people Jay called on Adnon's phone and driving around with Jay driving seems like Jay was doing that to establish many alibi's. Jay being in the prison system, street smart, and older would have more knowledge on how to kill, how to hide it, and how to get away with it. Jay himself said he was known as the "criminal" element. Jenn and others could have made statements in favor of Jay due to fear of Jay or even due to friendship, or even had innocent biases towards Jay due to the friendship. As for random witnesses like Chrissy? etc. We have seen many cases where people falsely admit to crimes they commit, make false statements, and even inject themselves into cases for attention. Statistics show that witness testimony is very unreliable due to many factors. In 1999 how exact and advanced were cell towers and GPS? Probably not very accurate since cell phones had not been out very long and the tech was not as advanced as today. Also, there were probably fewer towers then. Also, as a psych major, we also learn to pay attention to nonverbal cues. In the interviews, Jay's verbal pitch and many "umms" vs Adnons even and steady tone lead me to believe Adnon over Jay. Also, the cops were horrible interrogators. If they were to use their interviews in court today so much would get thrown out by the defense. The cops led Jay and others into the answers the cops wanted many times. They also failed to get and follow up on so much that could have assisted with evidence such as checking for a Best Buy phone booth. Cameras in the library, Best Buy etc. Even 6 weeks later they may have not been recorded over depending on the system and how recordings are stored. Even the library computer sign-in sheet may have still been accessible. Also, following up on the rope and liquor bottles. Now going to see if I can find information on appeals and any new developments after this series because if this was taken to court today, even as circumstantial this case is too weak to prosecute.
anybody saying that it is 100% for sure jay, don, adnan, whatever, is completely full of shit. no one knows. the point is, there is a GREAT amount of reasonable doubt, and so, adnan should never have been convicted. get another trial, this time with a defense lawyer who doesn't steal money from her clients, not spend the money on the shit she needs to prove innocence, and who isnt on her deathbed. the only thing that can solve this case is the DNA evidence, and that is the ONLY thing.
you really are overestimating forensic science..circumstantial evidence is stronger, there is nobody else with motive, and all things like adnon memory, leakin park pings, coincidentally same day he lends car and phone, he has no real alibi except one young woman enjoyuing her 15 min of fame after serial...how come before that she was quiet for years and shut the door in lawyer's face cuz she got "scared"
Why doesn't Sarah or anyone else mention that Jay threatened to kill a woman and strangle her, there is a police report that the woman filed and its not like its difficult info to find.
I still think jay's more involved in the crime than what he told the police. But if adnan would rat out on jay then that's also basically admitting they're on it together. I think that's why there are too many inconsistencies. Jay must have also been protecting himself so he's trying to make himself seem more innocent. Also, i think hae died later than the time police said she did. It must have been why there were so many inconsistencies with the timeframe in both jay's and adnan's accounts and why other witnesses said they still saw hae alive just a couple of minutes before her supposed death.
Gail Honestly I am confused at Jay and I think he knows more than he’s telling as well because why would he go to the police if he had said that he has a bad rep with the police or if he doesn’t trust nor like them. Like who and there right mind would go to the police about a murder they just heard there friend commit and that they just helped bury the body if your the person claiming your insecurities with the police like if anything you would think to avoid them and another thing that stood out to me is when they mentioned Jay being paranoid in a sense about a van that nobody was in like maybe he feels guilty about something worst and is being haunted by paranoia, I mean I lot of things don’t add up.
This has to be one of the most bizzare case... Jay seems shady... I am still confused if there were so many discrepancies how Adan was prosecuted? Wasn't it a rush of justice or something deeper... Man it gives nightmares even for normal people to be aware of how your luck can sometime deceive you and how wrong friends can get you in trouble. Be safe out there guys
She did fight. She kicked & broke the turn signal indicator in the car as she struggled. She also sustained an injury on the right side of her head. Strangulation can take around ~15 seconds to kill a person. She was a 135lb girl, her killer was much larger and stronger, and would've been close enough to wrap his hands around her neck before she had time to adequately defend herself. At the time DNA testing was less common, less reliable, and more expensive that it is today (yes, even as recently as 1999 police were still making judgment calls as to whether to test for DNA / trace DNA)
@@MistressNilah I don't think they were in Serial, but I'm not positive. Serial left out a lot of information, some of it quite damning to Adnan's case. Here's a video of Hae's car that shows the broken windshield wiper activator stick (not the turn signal indicator, my mistake) -- ua-cam.com/video/f41Dz7Q5dro/v-deo.html Jay Wilds told police about the broken windshield activator stick in his first police interview on Feb. 28, 1999 -- BEFORE he showed them the location of the car (around page 28 of this PDF: www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Interview-with-Jay.pdf) Jay told police that Adnan told him that Hae broke the stick while she was kicking, fighting for her life. Here's the autopsy report re Hae's head injuries: viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/autopsy-report.pdf The medical examiner who performed the autopsy testified in both trials that: - Hae died of strangulation - strangulation takes about 15 seconds to cause death - She had a bruising on the back right of her head and around her temple, which occurred before death Here's her testimony from the first trial: www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1w17-19991214-Margarita-Korell-Testimony-First-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
@@vincent2709 They tested the car for fingerprints (plenty of fingerprints from all sorts of people including Adnan) and hairs + clothing fibers, none of which were conclusively proven to be from Adnan. I'm not sure why they never tested Hae Min Lee's fingernails for DNA. Perhaps they didn't see anything resembling blood or skin underneath her nails. Perhaps they concluded that DNA samples would be tainted after her body was left semi buried for weeks. Dunno, it's not in any transcript or case file that I've seen. My guess is they figured it was unnecessary since they had so much evidence already.
I know it’s easy to be swayed by the narrative that Adnan has no part in this murder but if you really pay attention to the evidence & timeline, it is possible that Adnan is not innocent. Adnan, jay, and possibly Stephanie all played a role in Hae’s murder. Jays not telling the whole truth about that day but there is no doubt that Adnan was there.
Don't you mean Jenn and not Stephanie? Jenn actually talked to Jay a lot and Jay told her a lot about the details and she went to the police and WENT BACK to the police with her mom and a lawyer. Jay and Jenn played a role.
If it were someone else, I just can’t get past why Jay would make up the entire story…For what? They weren’t even that good of friends, there is no motive on Jay’s end…..
Ok, to sum this all up. Sarah Koenig *herself* believes she cannot convict Adnan as a juror. But she was not or is not a juror. I’m saying this to anyone who wants to paint this podcast as Biased. Because right after Sarah explains that she still thinks he did it or that there’s time when she doesn’t think Adnan’s done it. This whole podcast has been from her team and her team’s point of view. Of course knowing where Hae’s car was is significant, but as Sarah states it doesn’t tell a story. I’m not saying I don’t think Adnan did it. But it’s been explained time and time again the case is messy and not concrete. If I had to give an honest opinion, I think Adnan at least deserves a retrial or Hae Min Lee’s family deserves a retrial. Not just to figure out who truly did it but what happened that day. The possibility that Adnan is innocent, is just it. A possibility. I keep reading comments that try to discredit this podcast saying it’s biased. Even though I just explained why it’s not. People are entitled to their own opinions on this case. But you can’t deny the biggest point and what I believe this podcast proves without a shadow of a doubt. This case was messy. And if you listen to the whole podcast, I don’t know how you can deny that.
Thank you for an amazing series of podcasts. I have swung back and forth in my opinions as the podcasts progressed. Little do any of us know what can be the consequence of forgetting a part of a timeline in our life. Thank you from Liam listening from Ireland.
Seems to me that in this case one of two things must be true. It was either Jay or Adnan. While the serial killer twost at the end is crazy, that does nothing to explain how Jay knew where the car was. Can't wrap my head around it.
yeah, through this entire series all I could think was it's either Adnan or Jay. Later I had the thought, what if it was both of them and Jay flipped on Adnan and ratted him out. But it has to be one of them. I can't help but think of the interview with Jay where he responds "well then who killed her?" kind of along the lines of the best defense is a good offence. It was one of them.
@@briannoke4880 Seems awfully convenient that the guy who happened to borrow Adnan's cellphone would also by chance come across the victim's car parked in a lot he had no reason to be driving. Also, Jay pointed out the broken turn signal indicator in the car before cops saw it -- sure is convenient that he'd know that detail.
It seems very unlikely that Adnan programmed Nisha's number into his new phone on the first day in 1999, especially when he's obsessing over Hae and planning to kill her.
Exactly what I thought. Your girlfriend was murdered and you have never heard of the man who turned in the "killer", took police to her car, etc.? Something about that does not add up and is one of the most suspicious bits of this entire first season that I can't shake.
you guys are so easily manipulated..he probably said said Jay wild who? never heard of him...then sarah said the friend of adnan who convfessed, jay wilds is his name..and he probably then went oh that guy.. now the way she portrayed this conversation in her podcast for more views,we know.. the same way even worse was making a murderer, there is so much editing and cropping , to make things look good for avery, its shameful..
@@27sadhuespecially considering Hae was his girlfriend for 13 days. he admitted that he just kinda let it go when he thought she left MD. i don’t know how there’s so much scrutiny of don when jay and adnan are the way they are!
Adnan in episode one he is friends with j letting him barrow his car .. getting j gf a gift for her b day... then in later episodes adnan says he’s didn’t really know J and trying to down play there relationship
ok I'm not the only one whose confused here. He clearly said he was looking out for Jay and asked him if he got Stephanie a gift. If you're not cool with someone, why would you allow them to drive your car? and keep you phone? There are a lot of lies floating around here and my maternal instict is way up on it.
i thought the same thing. He said when the cops told him "Jay said..." etc, he said his first thought was who is Jay. But he was hanging with Jay that whole day when Hae disappeared!
Jay knew where the car was... The Streaker guy knew where the body was since the detective commented in earlier episodes that there was no way he could figure out there was a body. I think Jay killed her because his motive was to incriminate Adna who he was jealous of since Stephanie (his girlfriend)'s family looked highly of Adnan and looked down at Jay. He may have also been bitter at the fact that Adnan such a good wholesome relationship with Stephanie. He obviously thought of a plot to incriminate Adnan and prove Stephanie's family wrong! Also we know that Jay is a story teller - as most of his friends have said. i.e. he's keeps plotting stories in his mind to impress people or to look cool. Similarly he could have thought of this story in his bitterness. so in summary; Jay killed her and used the idiot Streaker to help him bury the body. or just may be the Streaker saw him burying the body since he's the type of guy who runs about the forest naked. lol
So if Jay was that pissed wouldn't it make more sense for Jay to kill Adnan...the guy he was jealous of? Your theory is that Jay was so pissed about Stephanie and Adnan being friends he murdered Adnan's girlfriend hoping the Baltimore police would frame Adnan? I'm sorry but that's reaching. Even if Jay planned such a perfect crime if Adnan was seen by ONE person while the murder was happening Jay's plan goes up in smoke. When you hear hoof beats think horses...not zebras. You're seeing conspiracies where none exist.
50farmers except for the fact jay waited 6 weeks to go to the police about adnan and I don’t know about you but I can hardly remember 2 weeks ago let alone 6
@@johncasey4357 : I understand what you're saying but this isn't asking if you had cornflakes or frosted flakes for breakfast 6 weeks ago. I'm not going to explain the way memories are stored in the brain and how the biochemical process works in memory storage on a UA-cam comment section but there's a reason we recall the first time we ever kissed a girl....even 40 or 50 years later but can't remember what our spouse said to us 30 minutes ago. Adnan may not have had total recall but he would have remembered where he was and what he was doing the day Hae was murdered. The only logical conclusion is he can't supply an alibi because he doesn't have one. Adnan is guilty. Now if you want to argue the evidence wasn't sufficient to get past reasonable doubt that's another case entirely. In other famous cases like Making a Murderer Steven Avery was very likely guilty but due to evidence tampering by the police no reasonable person could have convicted the guy. The West Memphis 3 is another type of case. Damien Echols and Jessie Miskelley were capable of killing those children...but Jason Baldwin was not. His actions before, during, and after his incarceration proved it. I'd be willing to listen if the argument is no reasonable person could look at the evidence and get past reasonable doubt but Adnan as the killer is the only thing that makes sense.
1. Adnan gave his car to someone else to use on the day of the murder although Adnan says they were not good friends. This is uncommon behavior. 2. Adnan gave his brand new phone to someone else to use on the day of the murder although Adnan says they were not good friends. This is uncommon behavior. 3. Jay told law enforcement Adnan was saying “im going to kill her” days before the murder 4. Law enforcement found a breakup note in Adnan’s bedroom written by Hae. On the back of the breakup note “Im going to kill” was written. This supports Jay’s statement to law enforcement in Number 3 above. Thinking about the above four points Adnan is more than likely guilty.
If you assume for a moment jay planned all along to accuse Adnan all coincidences make sense. He may have manipulated Adnan to let him offer his car, made the Nisha call himself to get evidence accusing Adnan.
He'd have to be a mastermind to do it and get away with it. Also keep in mind that Adnan did say he asked for a ride from Hae after school. Gosh I guess you could say Jay had Adnan's car, waited for Hae to leave school, followed Hae and intercepted her before she reached her cousin, killed her, did it discreetly and moved the body to the trunk and moved her car and got back to Adnan's car and waited for Adnan to get off track practice, and somehow buried Hae using Adnan's car without Adnan knowing or noticing anything suspicious...Basically believe Sarah when she said they speculated A LOT and couldn't say 99% of what they thought of while being reasonable.
This case makes me so angry. Not only because the case is so weak but because we don’t know what really happened to Hae and I think that’s what upsets me the most. Yes it would suck if Adnon has been in jail all this time if he was truly innocent but this girl was killed and we don’t have any andwers about what happened to her and why.
You know I've listened to this a few times, and that note that Hae had written didn't bother me that much until this time around. It kinda sounds like either she was planning on meeting Don after school then going to the match, skipping school but still going to the match, meeting Don on her lunch break, or meeting Don sometime before the school day ended at least. Or Don was planning on meeting her and she knew she wouldn't have much time...I don't know. Where she was going to put it seems important too. I guess the kindest option is Don was remembering incorrectly and maybe really wanted her to stay the next day and she couldn't. Or he wasn't awake when she left. Or she changed her plans. There's so many little things that don't fit, and that we will probably never know. I'm in the same camp of not being sure who did what. Adnan could be guilty, but I definitely don't buy the states timeline, or much of Jays story, at all. I wish the detectives would've done a more thorough job. I agree they zeroed right in after Jays story. There was still venues left for them to make the case stronger, as far as forensics and checking the holes in Jays story. I'd have tried so hard to find the stuff he ditched. You always want a slam dunk case. A flimsy motive and a witness that flipped because they were part of a felony really ain't it chief. That's nothing compared to forensics or having every thread tie back to your suspect.
i feel like him directly asking dierdra to test the dna prooves hes innocent, theres so many chances for that dna to be his, but he believes it isnt his, he STAUNCHLY believes it isnt his. I dont think any guilty person would ask you to bring up forgotten evidence
I think he did it, but Jay was definitely more involved. He just got smart fast and got a deal first, ratting out Adnan and shifting all the blame onto him. The police were so desperate to make it fit and Jay was smarter than them. The cops and prosecutors wanted it to fit so badly that they bungled up everything. Adnan must have kidnapped Hae, then went to Jay for help. Either he killed her and had Jay drive the car somewhere then drop him off back at the school or they tied her up and he killed her later ( there was a rope found near her body). So either Jay stayed with the body or at least knew where it was hidden ( because he knew where Hae's car was) or he drove around with the girl tied up in the car. He picked Adnan up again, and then they disposed of the body together ( enough time after school and practice to do it all). Adnan knows if he says Jay did it with me, he will lose the only thing he has: his consistent claims of innocence. Jay has said that Adnan was a coward, and Adnan can't actually be angry at Jay because he knows what he did. Implicating Jay implicates him.
For sure Jay and Jen did it when conveniently they had Adnan’s phone. Jay was too panicky about getting caught. He’s the only one behaving in a suspicious manner. That lunatic murderer is out while someone innocent is facing life in prison. He killed Hae and felt responsible so thought that if he admitted to being an accomplice he’d get fewer to no time and get away with it. Convenient.
Ughhh!! I have sooo many questions! It’s fascinating, but I really wish they figure it out, and May she Rest In Peace, I think we forget someone was awfully murdered, and we just want to focus on the case details.
I finished this Podcast but I’ll be watching the HBO documentary...very interesting to say the least. Sooo soo much involved in this whole case which is why I see it as a dream case for teaching purposes. -Teenagers -Minorities -Religion -Interrogations -Jurors -Witness -1990s -Technology Help me out if I missed anything. You can write a 10 page paper on any of those topics and how it affected the case.
how do you forget a whole afternoon of the last day you saw and spoke to someone that you deeply cared about?.... unless you were drugged and still functional on those drugs and just can't remember anything about what you did. I think it's too convenient for him to simply say he can't remember a few hours of that very critical time frame. Could he have been on some sort of drug that affects the memories? Jen described Adnan's body language as seemingly drugged out or exhausted and lethargic or withdrawn and worried.. was it some type of drug? OR was he having physical reactions to the act that was just committed and the work he needed to do to cover it up? I know it looks like Jay had no reason or motive to kill Hae, but what was his reason to help bury the body instead of just pretending he would help and then call the cops on Adnan for murdering their friend! HOW did Hae's car get to where it was when Jay told the police about it's location?
I totally do not remember the entire day my brother was killed in a car accident. I remember the phone call and then I vomited and nothing until the next day. Memory works that way- in snapshots and moments like video clips. Not in movies of entire days or weeks.
To me, the most damning thing against Adnan, was when the judge admonished him during the first trial for saying to Jay, You're pathetic. According to Jay, after the murder Adnan had said words to the effect of, all these guys thinking they're bad ass, but I killed somebody with my bare hands. Jay seems to have been a bad ass wannabe, so Adnan saying, You're pathetic would make sense in that context. Also, what would be the motive for Jay to have done the killing or for lying?
To me, if someone were trying to frame me for something I know they did or were involved in, I would think they're pathetic and weak for blaming an innocent person. There is always different meanings to things. You can't pin someone's innocence/guilt on a single statement even if you really are convinced. Because you don't know what they were truly thinking. It's irrelevant to the facts and the details of the day and what prove other people's whereabouts at the time of the murder etc.
The amount of lies Jay told, I'll call him pathetic too. Why isn't he telling the whole truth... why making stuff up which don't even make sense. If only Jay told the whole truth, we weren't be here watching, talking about this case.
Jay did it. I knew ever since episode 1. That supposedly Adnan said "He was going to kill that bitch." He said it so aggressively. Like if those were his own words.
of course he is a liar and he minimised his involvement so he could get away scot free..but he helped adnan, after al, adnan is the true killer..for jay to kill her without any motive is ridiculous, and all others coincidences that would have to align,almost impossibly, to make adnan innocent..leakin park pings, nisha call, his memory, no alibi(oh enough with the asia mclain nonsene, she is enjoying her 15 minutes of fame and using it for her book she could possibly be mistaken as well, there was no snow that day)..no way, they both did it..and they both lied..jay did what he did out of fear of some or other evidence getting caught or adnan getting caught, beter make the move first so that the system is on his side.. Jay clearly had no real criminal past before this, selling weed is nothing...all his friends say he only acted tough and was not a killer type of rough guy..he had a girlfriend who all said was one of the prettiest girls in school..absolutely no reason to kill hae..the girl still loved him she was with him in court ..
I haven’t heard any information on whether they checked if the man who found Hae’s body and Jay had any connection? Even in passing? I feel like this guy didn’t just happen upon her body. I feel like he may have been a “directed” to be a random guy who found her body
Jen Pusateri is definitely not telling the entire truth. I think she has alot more involvement than shes putting on. She also showed anger when being questioned on the documentary which is a telltale sign of a liar.
on contrary she seemed most innocent based on how relaxed and open to talk she was in documenarty..of course she is frustrated, she doesnt seem like rich or successful, her teeth look fucked from drugs..and on top of that if another trial or something comes up she has to spend so much time and stress on it
The one question I want answering is why didn't he ever try to ring her when she was just missing. If a woman I loved was missing I would of rang her 100 times hope in that she would pick up and say I am ok I just needed to get away. He never rang her not once is that because he new she was dead. That makes me think he did it.
It's possible Jay had his phone, saw the name "Nisha" and thought maybe it was a fake name, called and tried to see if it was actually his gf or not...
That one guy that worked with Jay at the store said that Jay was scared of the murderer coming after him. Do you guys think its possible that, since he never specified Adnan, the killer is someone else and still out there? Jay could have been so afraid of this guy that he framed Adnan because he was an easy target. And that also explains why Jay would have the info about where the car was. I just.. idk. This is just one of my theories. The facts just don't line up! So many people are telling a different story and you really never know who to believe.
And the whole theory with this Ronald Lee Moore being the murderer. It doesn't line up. Sure, him being realised 14 days prior to Hae's murder is weird, but I think it's just a coincidence. Deadra (idk how to spell her name) said he raped his victims, but Hae's rape test thing came back negetive, right? It just doesn't add up
I know this is way too late but did Adnan get rid of his shoes,clothes?. Did they find any personal effects at his house connected to a murder?.Why did Jay do everything that a murderer would do yet Adnan seems not to have done ?.
Also,Sarah is saying that the "smoking gun" is the Nischa call. Nischa said that thia call happened in Jay's work place. But Jay's Boss at the time said that Jay start work for him in the end of january. So if we only could have the end of january phone records to see if there is another call to Nischa I think a very big suspicion will be gone.
I don't think that Adnan was the one who committed the crime based on all of the evidence, I think that Jay was the one that had a hand in the murder somehow based on all of the facts. Loved the podcast and can't wait to see how his trial turns out.
You did amazing job- I believe Stephanie has a major role in this and brought Jay in to help her since she knew he would do anything she asked. I got a theory: I believe Stephanie was jealous of Hae because in a lot of ways she got what she wanted which was Adnan remember that Adnan said he never really stop messing with Stephanie after they broke up? Then he got with Hae!!!. So imagine you are Prom Queen and you prom King is the boy you like? to then have that big day ruined by this new girl Adnan is crushing on? Sheesh let’s take it a step forward. Stephanie was in the friend group with Jay, Jen and the rest of the clan( who lied the most to the cops? Jay & Stephanie group of friends. We know that Jen was Jays ride a die friend you know the friend that also sold weed with him so when he got caught with all those drugs she got caught and is how she was wheeled in to this story by the COPS!!! they told them you keep up this story and we won’t charge you for possession of weed. That’s why thier story didn’t make sense but in someway connected to the cell phone data. Just recently they asked her again what happened and then showed her evidence that she was lying she got upset flustered and said “ I don’t give a shit about this I’m done” let’s to take it back real quick. On the day of the alleged murder it happened to be Stephanie bday 🧐. I think she tried to stir issues up between Hae and Dawn by telling him she cheating on him with Adnan out of rage Dawn killed Hae and it was orchestrated by Stephanie and she confided in Jay about part of the story but not all and he took the fall for her; notice in Jays hearing the only one in the courtroom was STEPHANIE!!.., also the only one the won’t speak about it and almost disappeared but Jay always was concerned about her safety around Adnan why? It’s obvious why he was paranoid that Adnan would find out what Stephanie did that he would hurt her. also I’m in the legal field and never heard of a prosecutor hiring a private attorney and gave zero jail time for someone who participated in murder in MD. Fast forward to Jays adult life he has a lengthy rap sheet with assaults with officers, burglary etc but server 0 time or was charged bare minimum. That’s called an informant/rat and after he took the deal he was indebted to the police. Also just recently Jah assaulted his ex girlfriend bad and the cops released him in an hours time with no bail nothing, also the ex girlfriend said he always was released within hours of any crimes with no bail or most cases charged lol well damn isn’t he lucky 🍀…. I can go on but it’s to long already.
I’m pretty sure Don did it ... his alibi was his boss from work then come to find out his mom is his boss and the clock in codes he use was not even his.... its super fishy..
I started listening to this podcast over the summer, but I never ended up finishing it. Now my AP English has us listening to it and been doing assignments on it and we have to look into the evidence a lot, but I still have no idea what is true and what is not.
I don’t know how you can have trace evidence like that and not test at least some of it. Finger nail scraping especially. Did the defense not fight to have that stuff tested? I don’t understand. The only reason I would not want those tests done, is if I were guilty. I understand it probably isn’t cheap, but Adnon’s parents, and religious community were already dumping money into this super awesome defense lawyer...so awesome she couldn’t fight for the dna testing that could have exonerated him? Especially when the prosecution was pushing for the death penalty. You are going to kill a man with circumstantial evidence, and one actual witness? His attorney didn’t appear to believe in him.
If the Nisha call was a butt dial, how did Jay know they happened to butt dial the “girl in silver spring”? It’s not like he remembered her name. It would have been just some number or some contact. How would he have known or guessed it was the girl in SS? It wasn’t a butt dial
After this series my question is this: If not Jay, and not Adnan, then who is Jay protecting? Stephanie? DNA tests results showed an unidentified female. Also did police try to find the clothes Jay disposed of? Where are they.
It bothers me that the police believe jays story. Why .. He had the shovels, knew where the car was, threw his clothes away, had the bad reputation & home life … BUT what he had the most of, was a story with plenty of inconsistencies!!! Regardless of it all, there was never enough evidence to of charged Adnan with murder and send him away to prison at the age of 17. Im so thankful my interest in this case happened after Adnan has been released. Sending love & strength to Hays family. Hopefully this gets figured out ❤️
Everyone, listen to truth and justice podcast by Bob Ruff and then listen to his replies to the Prosecutors podcast's each episode, after listening to it you'll see the truth clearly. ✌
After listening to this series, I'm honestly torn over his guilt or innocence. But with the evidence presented (or lack thereof), there's no way I would have been able to convict him. The reasonable doubt in this case is palpable.
What if Jay called that girl from Adnan‘s phone and acted like he was adnan for a brief second just trying to talk like him to make the girl believe it was at nine and then said hang out and talk to my buddy Jay. Jay could’ve been by himself acting like Edna and for those brief moments to make the girl believe they were together. The only reason I think this may not be true is because I don’t know if Jay would have been that smart or thinking on that level, but another thing that seems to keep coming up is that Jay is very streetsmart which tells me he could’ve thought of that so I don’t know just thinking out loud
I’ve always wondered that there was corruption with the police. Since Jay had a criminal record they convinced him to admit to parts of it to lesson other charges to makes the police look better. Maybe they already already knew where the car was. I dunno.
But it isn’t just about if he did it. It’s the how and with who. Was Jays story fully true, probably not, the whole thing just doesn’t full add up and obviously it isn’t always gonna have to, but it must have more to it
@@charismasands80 you guys are stuck on litle inconsistencies like BestBuy angle in story...or the come and get me call...i think all these things can be simply explained by assuming jay is making up a lot of sh*t to minimise his involvement, e.g i personally believe they both went scouting for burial quiet location in morning, hence the sometimes westview mall sometimes another mall...of course jay will never admit to that part of the story, he would not then be an accomplice after the fact... they BOTH did it, adnan being the primary guy with motive and idea..probably it started like an act of who has the bigger balls to do it and challenging each other manhood, but when adnan actually did it, jay panickd the fucck out and eventually confessed cleverly knowing adnan will not confess to jay;s involvement or clarify stuff becuase he would basically be admitting to guilt.. this also explains adnan's relatively chill attitude towards jay..i mean hell if i was in jail 20 years for a lie Jay said, i would be screaming abuses at him and tearing him apart any chance i got to speak..
Sarah puts her finger on it when Adnan confesses the crime and in court, before the judge, jury and on watchers. Adnan blurts out "Your pathetic" or "pathetic", that's street talk for saying "your weak", "you caved", "you ratted me out". It also says Hae's death event was entirely between Adnan and Jay, canceling out any other party or stranger being involved. Case closed my friends. Feel sorry for the 17 year old who believed Rabia Chaudry not to confess, not to make a statement, not take a polygraph, make them prove it. With this type of thinking, make them prove it is pretty dam stupid. Cooperation is key to the best outcome. Adnan surprising has said " if anyone get's into a similar situation as mine, take the deal even if you didn't do it". He's absolutely right because if this was truly a miscarriage of justice that can be repaired at some point. Rabia's law school understanding of law, yet lack real world experience lead to Adnan's poor predicament. But gosh, look what it did for Rabia, from immigration counselor to celebrity, fame and job security, Adnan will have been locked up for at least 30 years, lots of cash from the defense fund(s), you might call Adnan her golden cash cow and Hae the proverbial sacrificial lamb.
okay I've listened to this ending, well.... this is my third time and I can't get Jay out of my mind Jay is the key to this case. He the one that got away with murder. This is the tears he shed. Jay I know he's all wrapped up with lies but Jay and Jen's involvement to me is more than being said.
This whole case is built on circumstantial evidence but let’s be honest, there is a tun of circumstantial evidence in this case. I honestly believe he did it & I’m not sure why everyone is hoping on the innocent bandwagon.
Agreed but they cops should of found BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT! They didnt, Jay is suspect af thou he likely didnt kill her. But too many unanswered questions, THE DETECTIVES NEED TO DO MORE DETECTING AND LESS LETS MAKE A DEAL!
So Adonon made a plot to kill his ex girlfriend, plotted how he was going to get in her car, where he was going to do it, but had to go to Jay's house to get shovels? Jay killed that girl.
The only thing we know for sure is that Jay knew where the car was. So, either he's telling the truth (many inconsistencies=reasonable doubt), he's protecting the real killer (who/why?) or he himself killed Hae. As for the motive, think about it, Adnan is the sweetheart of the school, Stephanie's best friend, Stephanie's parents liked Adnan and didn't like Jay. Jay, in his own words, was the "criminal element", an "outcast", a school drop-out, weed seller, etc. Could he have become extremely jealous of Adnan and plotted all that against him? And even if he was telling the truth, he would be as bad as Adnan! Come on, Adnan supposedly told Jay before hand, then Jay helped Adnan dig a grave and bury the body! How could he have got away with all that that easily?? No jail time?? After listening to all that and watching some other documentaries on the case, I became more inclined to believe Jay did it or at least he's quite as bad as the killer himself and not some sort of hero, who saved the day, like the judge portrayed him while letting him off the hook. And I never felt remorse or distress in his voice or appearances.
My only question (that's a lie but the one I'm dying to ask) is did no one check the phone records from Neesha's phone? Did anyone see if the call from Adnan was missed or picked up? If the only time she ever talked to Jay on the phone was that one time when he was at the video store, then if the call was picked up that day she must have only talked to Adnan (which also, in this case, why you lying Jay?). If it was a missed call this proves what Adnan is saying... no?
I used to have my doubts about Adnan's innocence. However, now that his conviction was overturned because of new evidence, I'm leaning towards he didn't do it and just got really unlucky.
Regardless of his guilt or innocence. There are at minimum 3 other suspects who should definitely not been cleared with what they have for evidence. So definitely there is reasonable doubt on his guilt. His defense attorney was a POS… and basically she screwed him trying to get that appeal money. She was horrible and ultimately that is why he is serving life the whole trial should not have been hanging on a witness testimony that is not factual evidence I mean come on…
Yikes. I was pretty confident in guilt until I heard that response to the DNA testing. That was an honestly painful response that I wholeheartedly believe. I cannot believe someone would WANT the testing if there was even a sliver of a chance it was him. No one would be that stupid! Or they would try to mitigate if they happen to find something that was his. He did neither. I’m so lost now!
lol wat do u expect his answer to be ..no dont do it i dont want no dna testing..love how easily people like u r fooled..he is all in on it now, he almost has convinced his own self he is innocent..
@@michaelkennedy3372 what are you gonna say when they eventually determine who really killed Hae? Because it’s looking like it wasn’t Adnan. Remember Michael, you once believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy too.
She's not really likeable, or relatable. In her diary she's saying she's in love with Adnan and the very next day writes how she can't stop thinking of Don, and then not even a week later Don is her soul mate?
Disappointed on your wrap up on this.. May i criticized alil? Point out all the "Facts" in your ending and stop asking the same questions that you've been asking in every episode. Stay bias I find it hard to come to a conclusion because of all open questions out there. You've only let us hear what you find important to the case. I personally would like hear more phone calls and him talking, responses to your question. This is a smart man. Thinks very rationally and so many people do not do. I think his thinking is beyound his years, which doesnt come from being in prision, makes me think he so well aware at 17. His thinking process is not of normalcy of a general person. Even at his age now.
Through this whole thing i just kept thinking that the only theory that makes perfect sense (in my mind) is that Jay framed Adnan. Most of the witness testimonies from that day don’t add up. Jay had his car and phone and knew where the car was. I am a little confused why jay wouldn’t have lead the police to the body if he had buried it along with Adnan. None the less, definitely not enough evidence for Adnan to be in jail. I really believe the police had a lot to do with Jay’s side of this and keeping him out of jail. If it were the other way around, Jay on the stand, I really do think the whole story would make a lot more sense.
Well, this was a letdown. A case like this really isn't all that intriguing if there isn't a big reveal at the end. Now it's just a bunch of information and misinformation and absolutely nothing has changed after it's over. If Adnan is ever found not guilty and an episode 13 is made of this, it will be gold though.
Almost everyone that talks about Jay say how much he lies. Even if it's little lies, like he changes little details here and there or lies to make himself seem cool. They all mention it. It sounds like he has a real problem with the truth. And for him to tell do many people his side of the story and it never be the same telling twice makes me feel like he's never told the whole truth of it to anyone.
My own thoughts, Adnan killed Hae!! I'm sure of it....however Jay is not telling the complete truth and had a bigger part to play, and that whole day played out differently...and we will never know what truly happen that day, but I am fairly certain that Adnan did it. To not remember what you did the day your ex girlfriend went missing (I'm not even talking about now, but even to not remember at the time this all happened), to be linked to Jay that whole day, give him your car, phone etc....Adnan came to Jay either before that day, or early that day and Jay helped him organize what would happen with Hae....this whole shit about a present is bull shit. Adnan you are guilty...but under court law did they have enough on you to go to prison...or more so with Jays clear lies I don't think so.....but I think they did get you. If you are released I don't think you would be of harm to society, I don't think you are a serial murderer, I believe you felt such a sense of portrayal and you couldn't handle your emotions and your religious teachings fed into pre-haps your world view of women, and the pressure from your family etc had a part to play. but if this was my sister, cousin or friend...I would want and fight for you to stay in prison....and also Jay.
Go on and listen to truth and justice podcast by Bob Ruff and then listen to his replies to the Prosecutors podcast's each episode and then tell me how do you think, I'm sure you'll feel different.
But gosh, in the end, I think it's most likely Adnan did it. Which is terrifying because he is such a likeable person and I found myself believing him despite the evidence against him. (His attorney was CRAZY not to put him on the stand, he is so convincing.) If he didn't do it, I need to know how Jay knew where the car was. If it's possible Jay did it and Adnan didn't know, why hasn't that theory been brought forth?
If Adnan was guilty wouldn't he make up an alibi like most guilty people do? If Adnan was a sociopath etc I doubt he'd even remember Stephanies birthday let alone get her a gift or give two craps if Jay got her a gift orrrrr loan Jay his car and phone half the day .... That's not how sociopaths acts.
I thought I would get some type of closure from this podcast, but I have more questions than when it first began. smh.
I know right
I understand the disappointment but remember that this is real life. It's not some plot someone's written.
I have seen the HBO special and listened to the podcast and feel more conflicted than ever.
The HBO special put Adnan in a different light but this podcast makes me wonder a lot whether he's guilty.
Cases like this tear myvhead apart...
Narrator felt the same way youre not alone
That's life, in the end.
Strange, after listening to the entire series, I am still none the wiser. Nor it appears is anyone else.
Coincidences:
1) I will kill note found
2)Butt Dial to Niesha
3)Someone murdered Adnans Ex-Girlfriend
4)Someone murdered his exgirlfriend the day he lent his car and the newly purchased phone.
5)His friend was involved in the murder and was able to mastermind and fool authorities and frame him at the age of 18.
6)He conveniently forgets important details.
7) Independent witnesses statin Adnan was asking weird that day
8)Asked Hae for a ride the day she disappeared.
Its too much.
This should have more likes. Its all very important, plus Jay said he did it, and others around jay collarate his story. And the cell phone pings near where the body was found, plus more...
Excellent post. And facts...
Adnan did it pulled jay over . Now both are involved but jay betrayed him n told the truth to court and nisha call were curtains for adnan
Dude how'd u miss the cellphone at leakin park
Thanks! I’ll be stealing these for a project, lol.
Does anybody else think jays hiding something or is that just me?
He's hidin something else but he doesn't want to say
I am thinking that Jay and Ronald are linked somehow. Ronald here is some third hitman guy who did actually killed hay and threated Jay of snitching and Syed was high whole day so can't remember correctly or was made to high. Why Jay was in on this is a big ?
@@pranjalahluwalia LITERALLY I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE! I feel like Jay drugged Adnan with something other than weed fr, he kept asking how to make his high go away and the fact that he could have been UTI is maybe why he can't rememebr??
Yeah he did it
Ya I felt that and did they ever drug screen anon. I mean he seem to smoke often but that was out of it. Could have been laced. And why no one ever ask did Jay purposely place a call to someone he didn't know
This cases has so many holes, if it weren’t for it, we would known who was responsible for Hae’s death.
Not having DNA checking to see who’s marks, hands where used to strangle Hae.
No checking for marks on the suspects because Hae did fought back.
Not checking for the phone boot that jay was talking about
Or library logs where supposedly Adnan was seen.
Or even getting finger prints of the cell phone, to see who had it.
Recovering the gloves Jay dispose of
I can go on and on. There’s just not enough evidence to convict someone on this case, just many holes and red flags.
If they would have just checked the dna they would have the murderer right away!!
I agree! The only issue is #1 this was in the 90s so dna analysis was not as extensive as it is today, #2 they started asking questions and investigating 6 weeks after the girl was killed. So the disposed glives and the library logs were long gone by that point. But i totally see where you are coming from!
He wore gloves …he did it …yall dumb
@@peteknox3713 Thank you
My big take away from this is that I dont know if Adnan did it, but one thing is for sure, police and investigators botched this so bad that Adnan can never be proved guilty beyond doubt, and if he didnt do it then we will never know who actually did, and that Hae will never have true justice.
But he was find guilty by a juror
@@taytay8283 he was just released since they found withheld evidence that would have helped adnans case for innocence. They are most likely going to look into this much more now since if Adnan is innocent now who is the real killer
What I find crazy is Jay admitted to doing it and got a slap on the wrist. Part of me thinks he did it alone or just not with Adnan, and I've been saying that since episode 2.
@@taytay8283 that means nothing in this instance. The jurors weren't given all the evidence and there wasn't enough evidence to convict Adnan anyway. There's also the possibility of bias among the jury
The ONLY tangible fact in this case , in my eyes at least , is that JAY knew where Hae’s car was . That he knew where the car was so why are police believing him that Adnan put the car there.. look at it plainly for what it is Jay to the police to the car , he had knowledge only the killer would and he connected himself to the murder at least as far as police investigation standards Jay would be the suspect at the very least .
The police were clearly interested in Jay at one point. When they interviewed him, they grilled him repeatedly on his story and how strange it was for him to help Adnan bury the body. They were just as confused as we are by the fact that he didn't quickly come to police and confess.
But the fact is no evidence points to Jay as the murderer, AND he had no motive, AND his testimony is corroborated by physical evidence (the location of the car and the broken turn signal indicator, neither of which the police knew about before he showed them) and witness testimony/police interviews (Nisha, Jen, Cathy, police officers, medical examiners, Josh's interview in this episode, etc).
Yah. It boils down to this.
Couldn't Jay have driven by the car and seen it or been out and seen the car
Who asked
Andro mache I am revisiting this case, so, I busted out my little notebook of theories from a couple years ago, and I just want to say how impressed I am with YOURS. Some of the things you feel Adnan must’ve felt towards Don seem spot on, to me. There was more than just that, but I am sincerely impressed. I read it twice!!-and that notebook of “my” theories was made a little stronger. Haha. Kudos, internet friend.
I'm so conflicted. On one hand Adnan looks guilty and if u believe he is guilty then you also have to belive he is just trying to work the system and find a way out but last November he turned down a deal with the state. The deal was Adnan had to serve 4 more years (which is nothing when you already served 20) and go to court and admit to the court and his family that he lied and he's been lying for all these years. He turned it down because it wasn't a full exoneration which is what he wants because he maintains he is innocent. My thinking is a guilty man would have taken that deal if he was truly guilty because he would know that that could and probably was his only chance...I dunno but this case is fascinating
It's a money play, if he admits guilt he can't sue the state for wrongful imprisonment.
@Andro mache can you explain to us why?
why would he..where would he go even if he was out of prison, his whole community will despise him, he wont be able to look his mom in the eye, all his fame and million supporters will disappear..he is already in prison for 20 years, has himself said he gets along with everyone and 20 years is a long time..its almost his comfort zone now..he would rather take the odds to get out of prison in sometime with some or other technical glitch in court system and all his supporters
Interesting considering that he, by his own admission, is always telling other inmates to take the deal. But honestly even a guilty person would take that deal. Unless they were fairly certain something better could happen. It’s usually a game of what’s the best option. If he knew there was a good chance he could get less time or exonerated he would go that route.
@@27sadhu no wonder why paj eets cry when they see us.
It doesn't make sense for adnan or his family to threaten Jay. I think Jay is covering up for the real murderer and found Adnan an easy target to blame the crime on.
marilynn nesheiwat jay had no motive adnan did...
You cannot know whether he has before really looking into this direction.
@@MissAlexis911 What if Jay was jealous Adnan was so close to Stephanie? What if he helped someone that did have a motive? Don could've been mad she was still close with Adnan, or maybe he helped another girl. Didn't have to be a man. He also could be this big sociopath and got a free kill knowing just who to pin it on. I see where this person is coming from. After Jay shows up they didn't try anything else, even after he tells multiple stories.
how tf do you know he had no motive?? youre a mind reader??
how do you explain his constantly changing story
I think everyone comes to these kinds of conclusions because they're listening to something being covered in a way that makes you want it to be juicy.
You can't have listened to 8+ hours of a podcast about evidence in a case and it actually turn out that the original person did it. Why would something like that be presented to you in such a compelling manner? That doesn't fit with all of the murder mysteries and TV shows on people being acquitted.
Honestly I think Adnon might have done it. I dont know that there should have been a conviction with the evidence but the system is far from the ideal we want it to be.
I don't think Jay or anyone else in the story did it.
Awesome investigation. I just want to say thank you to SERIAL for bringing us this mind boggling true story. I can't imagine how exhausting this must be for the crew. I appreciate the hard work that must go into this podcast. Keep kicking ass and keep bringing it!
This case is so frustrating. I've listened to this podcast SO many times over the years. I just watched the HBO docuseries, so I listened to this again. I don't know if he did it. But I don't believe there was enough evidence to even bring him to trial, no less convict him. Makes no sense to me. And all these years later they still haven't run DNA. He deserves at least, another trial. It makes me want to scream.
Can you help me wit my evidence homework for this lol
He finally is free .
Imo I don't know if Adnan did it, but he and Jay def know who did because of how they knew where the car was. At least Jay surely did. And at some point Adnan feels bad in the podcast (in an earlier episode) about his luck etc, but I think he probably knows who or what led to her death and that's why he feels bad. Jay def knows more than he told, if he knows where the car was, and Adnan didn't push him enough because maybe they both know more. Other guesses, they were both drugged and are blur about who did what. Bleh.
But loved the podcast!!
@@Aliasgher1993 Jay didn't know where the car was, the cops told him, and Adnan feels bad because he knows what exactly brought him here, he knows Allah put him through all this to make him a better Muslim, he was completely astray.
Everyone that's bummed out by the resolution might be watching too many cop shows. This is a real story, and reality isn't always going to tie itself up neatly after 23 minutes and two commercial breaks.
if it was truly solved and had an ending, noone would be listening..same for making a murderer, if it was clear he did it the show would have never been fixed
TWO comnercial breaks??!! Now THATS being unrealistic. 😉
I really wish Jay had been interviewed, he really is the key figure behind this case. There are too many liars in this case for the truth to come out.
he was interviewed but it didnt do anything if im honest
@@pinkpurplestfu4609
no he refused to speak or meet Sarah if i remember correctly
@@astouaiisha no he was interviewed
I posted on an earlier episode I stated Jay seemed more likely to have committed the crime and i believe that even more so now. If you want to look at motives:
Jay: jealous of Adnon (why I will state in a second). Adnon jilted ex. Jay's seems more plausible.
Going back to episode 1 we have to remember Jay dated Adnon's friend Stephanie. Stephanie's parents liked Adnon and not Jay. Then Adnon remembered to get Stephanie a birthday present and Jay did not. Then Adnon asked Jay what he got Stephanie and offered to help Jay go get Stephanie one. To a "street-savvy older guy" that would probably embarrass or piss him off. Then, gets Adnons PHONE and CAR , barely knowing each other? Adnon was younger and probably more naive and since the purpose could have been to accommodate Stephanies birthday.
On to facts. Adnon has been pretty consistent whereas Jay has not. Statistics show guilty people are either word for word consistent like they rehearsed it or change the story a lot. The shovels were Jay's. Jay. not Adnon (that I heard) ditched his clothes etc and wiped down the shovels. Jay had way more opportunity and time to commit the murders whereas as you even found would be very difficult to do (but is possible). Also, all the calls to people Jay called on Adnon's phone and driving around with Jay driving seems like Jay was doing that to establish many alibi's. Jay being in the prison system, street smart, and older would have more knowledge on how to kill, how to hide it, and how to get away with it.
Jay himself said he was known as the "criminal" element. Jenn and others could have made statements in favor of Jay due to fear of Jay or even due to friendship, or even had innocent biases towards Jay due to the friendship.
As for random witnesses like Chrissy? etc. We have seen many cases where people falsely admit to crimes they commit, make false statements, and even inject themselves into cases for attention. Statistics show that witness testimony is very unreliable due to many factors.
In 1999 how exact and advanced were cell towers and GPS? Probably not very accurate since cell phones had not been out very long and the tech was not as advanced as today. Also, there were probably fewer towers then.
Also, as a psych major, we also learn to pay attention to nonverbal cues. In the interviews, Jay's verbal pitch and many "umms" vs Adnons even and steady tone lead me to believe Adnon over Jay. Also, the cops were horrible interrogators. If they were to use their interviews in court today so much would get thrown out by the defense. The cops led Jay and others into the answers the cops wanted many times. They also failed to get and follow up on so much that could have assisted with evidence such as checking for a Best Buy phone booth. Cameras in the library, Best Buy etc. Even 6 weeks later they may have not been recorded over depending on the system and how recordings are stored. Even the library computer sign-in sheet may have still been accessible. Also, following up on the rope and liquor bottles.
Now going to see if I can find information on appeals and any new developments after this series because if this was taken to court today, even as circumstantial this case is too weak to prosecute.
anybody saying that it is 100% for sure jay, don, adnan, whatever, is completely full of shit. no one knows. the point is, there is a GREAT amount of reasonable doubt, and so, adnan should never have been convicted. get another trial, this time with a defense lawyer who doesn't steal money from her clients, not spend the money on the shit she needs to prove innocence, and who isnt on her deathbed. the only thing that can solve this case is the DNA evidence, and that is the ONLY thing.
you really are overestimating forensic science..circumstantial evidence is stronger, there is nobody else with motive, and all things like adnon memory, leakin park pings, coincidentally same day he lends car and phone, he has no real alibi except one young woman enjoyuing her 15 min of fame after serial...how come before that she was quiet for years and shut the door in lawyer's face cuz she got "scared"
Why doesn't Sarah or anyone else mention that Jay threatened to kill a woman and strangle her, there is a police report that the woman filed and its not like its difficult info to find.
How do you know
Another reason that Jay can kill... my gut feeling tells me, Jay did it.
It’s sad that they didn’t even test the evidence for 16 years
I still think jay's more involved in the crime than what he told the police. But if adnan would rat out on jay then that's also basically admitting they're on it together. I think that's why there are too many inconsistencies. Jay must have also been protecting himself so he's trying to make himself seem more innocent. Also, i think hae died later than the time police said she did. It must have been why there were so many inconsistencies with the timeframe in both jay's and adnan's accounts and why other witnesses said they still saw hae alive just a couple of minutes before her supposed death.
Gail Honestly I am confused at Jay and I think he knows more than he’s telling as well because why would he go to the police if he had said that he has a bad rep with the police or if he doesn’t trust nor like them. Like who and there right mind would go to the police about a murder they just heard there friend commit and that they just helped bury the body if your the person claiming your insecurities with the police like if anything you would think to avoid them and another thing that stood out to me is when they mentioned Jay being paranoid in a sense about a van that nobody was in like maybe he feels guilty about something worst and is being haunted by paranoia, I mean I lot of things don’t add up.
This has to be one of the most bizzare case... Jay seems shady... I am still confused if there were so many discrepancies how Adan was prosecuted? Wasn't it a rush of justice or something deeper... Man it gives nightmares even for normal people to be aware of how your luck can sometime deceive you and how wrong friends can get you in trouble. Be safe out there guys
If some one strangles you how dont you scratch n fight to survive. And then the cops not test it to find the killer. This is maddening.
She did fight. She kicked & broke the turn signal indicator in the car as she struggled. She also sustained an injury on the right side of her head. Strangulation can take around ~15 seconds to kill a person. She was a 135lb girl, her killer was much larger and stronger, and would've been close enough to wrap his hands around her neck before she had time to adequately defend herself.
At the time DNA testing was less common, less reliable, and more expensive that it is today (yes, even as recently as 1999 police were still making judgment calls as to whether to test for DNA / trace DNA)
@@mrjoobjoob17 Interesting. Were those details ina previous episode? I don't remember hearing them.
@@MistressNilah I don't think they were in Serial, but I'm not positive. Serial left out a lot of information, some of it quite damning to Adnan's case.
Here's a video of Hae's car that shows the broken windshield wiper activator stick (not the turn signal indicator, my mistake) -- ua-cam.com/video/f41Dz7Q5dro/v-deo.html
Jay Wilds told police about the broken windshield activator stick in his first police interview on Feb. 28, 1999 -- BEFORE he showed them the location of the car (around page 28 of this PDF: www.splitthemoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Interview-with-Jay.pdf) Jay told police that Adnan told him that Hae broke the stick while she was kicking, fighting for her life.
Here's the autopsy report re Hae's head injuries: viewfromll2.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/autopsy-report.pdf
The medical examiner who performed the autopsy testified in both trials that:
- Hae died of strangulation
- strangulation takes about 15 seconds to cause death
- She had a bruising on the back right of her head and around her temple, which occurred before death
Here's her testimony from the first trial: www.adnansyedwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/T1w17-19991214-Margarita-Korell-Testimony-First-Trial-of-Adnan-Syed.pdf
Then why didn't they test her nail clippings? Or the car?
@@vincent2709 They tested the car for fingerprints (plenty of fingerprints from all sorts of people including Adnan) and hairs + clothing fibers, none of which were conclusively proven to be from Adnan.
I'm not sure why they never tested Hae Min Lee's fingernails for DNA. Perhaps they didn't see anything resembling blood or skin underneath her nails. Perhaps they concluded that DNA samples would be tainted after her body was left semi buried for weeks. Dunno, it's not in any transcript or case file that I've seen. My guess is they figured it was unnecessary since they had so much evidence already.
I know it’s easy to be swayed by the narrative that Adnan has no part in this murder but if you really pay attention to the evidence & timeline, it is possible that Adnan is not innocent. Adnan, jay, and possibly Stephanie all played a role in Hae’s murder. Jays not telling the whole truth about that day but there is no doubt that Adnan was there.
Don't you mean Jenn and not Stephanie? Jenn actually talked to Jay a lot and Jay told her a lot about the details and she went to the police and WENT BACK to the police with her mom and a lawyer. Jay and Jenn played a role.
@@wachowski9525I agree! One thing we all can agree on is that the Murder didn't happen the way Jay says it did.
If it were someone else, I just can’t get past why Jay would make up the entire story…For what? They weren’t even that good of friends, there is no motive on Jay’s end…..
I just want to know why this series ended before disclosing the results of the DNA testing???
have the results been disclosed to the public today though?
Just because Adnan cried on the phone and acts all friendly it still doesn’t mean he didn’t do it. He could just be a great liar
When did he cry?
Yea it can go both ways. Adnan could be just trying to manipulate Sarah and us
Ok, to sum this all up. Sarah Koenig *herself* believes she cannot convict Adnan as a juror. But she was not or is not a juror. I’m saying this to anyone who wants to paint this podcast as Biased. Because right after Sarah explains that she still thinks he did it or that there’s time when she doesn’t think Adnan’s done it. This whole podcast has been from her team and her team’s point of view. Of course knowing where Hae’s car was is significant, but as Sarah states it doesn’t tell a story. I’m not saying I don’t think Adnan did it. But it’s been explained time and time again the case is messy and not concrete. If I had to give an honest opinion, I think Adnan at least deserves a retrial or Hae Min Lee’s family deserves a retrial. Not just to figure out who truly did it but what happened that day. The possibility that Adnan is innocent, is just it. A possibility. I keep reading comments that try to discredit this podcast saying it’s biased. Even though I just explained why it’s not. People are entitled to their own opinions on this case. But you can’t deny the biggest point and what I believe this podcast proves without a shadow of a doubt. This case was messy. And if you listen to the whole podcast, I don’t know how you can deny that.
Thank you for an amazing series of podcasts. I have swung back and forth in my opinions as the podcasts progressed. Little do any of us know what can be the consequence of forgetting a part of a timeline in our life. Thank you from Liam listening from Ireland.
Seems to me that in this case one of two things must be true. It was either Jay or Adnan. While the serial killer twost at the end is crazy, that does nothing to explain how Jay knew where the car was. Can't wrap my head around it.
yeah, through this entire series all I could think was it's either Adnan or Jay. Later I had the thought, what if it was both of them and Jay flipped on Adnan and ratted him out. But it has to be one of them. I can't help but think of the interview with Jay where he responds "well then who killed her?" kind of along the lines of the best defense is a good offence. It was one of them.
How do we know that Jay didn’t just see Hays car where was parked before the cops asked him
@@briannoke4880 Seems awfully convenient that the guy who happened to borrow Adnan's cellphone would also by chance come across the victim's car parked in a lot he had no reason to be driving. Also, Jay pointed out the broken turn signal indicator in the car before cops saw it -- sure is convenient that he'd know that detail.
@@mrjoobjoob17 to me, jay seems to be the most guilty
@@dnwalkingoneggshells what do you think his motive is though?
I revisted this podcast in 2020 after listening to it in early 2015. It still holds up!
Same-I hadn’t heard it since 2015, and here I am 8 years later, for only the second time. Not really sure what brought me here
It seems very unlikely that Adnan programmed Nisha's number into his new phone on the first day in 1999, especially when he's obsessing over Hae and planning to kill her.
Ok...did I hear right that don never heard of Jay until this podcast????
Exactly what I thought. Your girlfriend was murdered and you have never heard of the man who turned in the "killer", took police to her car, etc.? Something about that does not add up and is one of the most suspicious bits of this entire first season that I can't shake.
Yes!!! Lies!!!
you guys are so easily manipulated..he probably said said Jay wild who? never heard of him...then sarah said the friend of adnan who convfessed, jay wilds is his name..and he probably then went oh that guy..
now the way she portrayed this conversation in her podcast for more views,we know..
the same way even worse was making a murderer, there is so much editing and cropping , to make things look good for avery, its shameful..
@@27sadhuespecially considering Hae was his girlfriend for 13 days. he admitted that he just kinda let it go when he thought she left MD. i don’t know how there’s so much scrutiny of don when jay and adnan are the way they are!
Adnan in episode one he is friends with j letting him barrow his car .. getting j gf a gift for her b day... then in later episodes adnan says he’s didn’t really know J and trying to down play there relationship
I noticed that too
ok I'm not the only one whose confused here. He clearly said he was looking out for Jay and asked him if he got Stephanie a gift. If you're not cool with someone, why would you allow them to drive your car? and keep you phone? There are a lot of lies floating around here and my maternal instict is way up on it.
Yeah but jay says they aren’t close too
i thought the same thing. He said when the cops told him "Jay said..." etc, he said his first thought was who is Jay. But he was hanging with Jay that whole day when Hae disappeared!
@@mmmkkkyla Jay also says my former friend Adnan
We think it was Don? But when Don had the chance to help bury Adnan on the stand... he painted Adnan as a good guy lol.
Did Don testify?
@@lizz3226 yes the podcast above said this.
I love how they make woodlawn md seem like some charming baltimore suburb. As far as the county goes its about as bad as it gets.
Jay knew where the car was... The Streaker guy knew where the body was since the detective commented in earlier episodes that there was no way he could figure out there was a body. I think Jay killed her because his motive was to incriminate Adna who he was jealous of since Stephanie (his girlfriend)'s family looked highly of Adnan and looked down at Jay. He may have also been bitter at the fact that Adnan such a good wholesome relationship with Stephanie. He obviously thought of a plot to incriminate Adnan and prove Stephanie's family wrong! Also we know that Jay is a story teller - as most of his friends have said. i.e. he's keeps plotting stories in his mind to impress people or to look cool. Similarly he could have thought of this story in his bitterness.
so in summary; Jay killed her and used the idiot Streaker to help him bury the body.
or just may be the Streaker saw him burying the body since he's the type of guy who runs about the forest naked. lol
So if Jay was that pissed wouldn't it make more sense for Jay to kill Adnan...the guy he was jealous of? Your theory is that Jay was so pissed about Stephanie and Adnan being friends he murdered Adnan's girlfriend hoping the Baltimore police would frame Adnan? I'm sorry but that's reaching. Even if Jay planned such a perfect crime if Adnan was seen by ONE person while the murder was happening Jay's plan goes up in smoke. When you hear hoof beats think horses...not zebras. You're seeing conspiracies where none exist.
50farmers except for the fact jay waited 6 weeks to go to the police about adnan and I don’t know about you but I can hardly remember 2 weeks ago let alone 6
@@johncasey4357 : I understand what you're saying but this isn't asking if you had cornflakes or frosted flakes for breakfast 6 weeks ago. I'm not going to explain the way memories are stored in the brain and how the biochemical process works in memory storage on a UA-cam comment section but there's a reason we recall the first time we ever kissed a girl....even 40 or 50 years later but can't remember what our spouse said to us 30 minutes ago. Adnan may not have had total recall but he would have remembered where he was and what he was doing the day Hae was murdered. The only logical conclusion is he can't supply an alibi because he doesn't have one. Adnan is guilty. Now if you want to argue the evidence wasn't sufficient to get past reasonable doubt that's another case entirely. In other famous cases like Making a Murderer Steven Avery was very likely guilty but due to evidence tampering by the police no reasonable person could have convicted the guy. The West Memphis 3 is another type of case. Damien Echols and Jessie Miskelley were capable of killing those children...but Jason Baldwin was not. His actions before, during, and after his incarceration proved it. I'd be willing to listen if the argument is no reasonable person could look at the evidence and get past reasonable doubt but Adnan as the killer is the only thing that makes sense.
@@50farmers Killing a girl only a coward would do and a coward would never picka fight with someone who could potentially overpower him.
@@samhouston2000 are you trying to say that Jay couldn't over power Adnan?
Amazing podcast. Personally I do feel Adnan is innocent and Jay definitely knows more than he's letting on.
1. Adnan gave his car to someone else to use on the day of the murder although Adnan says they were not good friends. This is uncommon behavior.
2. Adnan gave his brand new phone to someone else to use on the day of the murder although Adnan says they were not good friends. This is uncommon behavior.
3. Jay told law enforcement Adnan was saying “im going to kill her” days before the murder
4. Law enforcement found a breakup note in Adnan’s bedroom written by Hae. On the back of the breakup note “Im going to kill” was written. This supports Jay’s statement to law enforcement in Number 3 above.
Thinking about the above four points Adnan is more than likely guilty.
Check out Crime Weekly. The last episode of this case.
If you assume for a moment jay planned all along to accuse Adnan all coincidences make sense. He may have manipulated Adnan to let him offer his car, made the Nisha call himself to get evidence accusing Adnan.
He'd have to be a mastermind to do it and get away with it. Also keep in mind that Adnan did say he asked for a ride from Hae after school. Gosh I guess you could say Jay had Adnan's car, waited for Hae to leave school, followed Hae and intercepted her before she reached her cousin, killed her, did it discreetly and moved the body to the trunk and moved her car and got back to Adnan's car and waited for Adnan to get off track practice, and somehow buried Hae using Adnan's car without Adnan knowing or noticing anything suspicious...Basically believe Sarah when she said they speculated A LOT and couldn't say 99% of what they thought of while being reasonable.
This case makes me so angry. Not only because the case is so weak but because we don’t know what really happened to Hae and I think that’s what upsets me the most. Yes it would suck if Adnon has been in jail all this time if he was truly innocent but this girl was killed and we don’t have any andwers about what happened to her and why.
We do. The guys in jail.
@@michaelkennedy3372 Not now. Released.
You know I've listened to this a few times, and that note that Hae had written didn't bother me that much until this time around. It kinda sounds like either she was planning on meeting Don after school then going to the match, skipping school but still going to the match, meeting Don on her lunch break, or meeting Don sometime before the school day ended at least. Or Don was planning on meeting her and she knew she wouldn't have much time...I don't know. Where she was going to put it seems important too. I guess the kindest option is Don was remembering incorrectly and maybe really wanted her to stay the next day and she couldn't. Or he wasn't awake when she left. Or she changed her plans. There's so many little things that don't fit, and that we will probably never know. I'm in the same camp of not being sure who did what. Adnan could be guilty, but I definitely don't buy the states timeline, or much of Jays story, at all. I wish the detectives would've done a more thorough job. I agree they zeroed right in after Jays story. There was still venues left for them to make the case stronger, as far as forensics and checking the holes in Jays story. I'd have tried so hard to find the stuff he ditched. You always want a slam dunk case. A flimsy motive and a witness that flipped because they were part of a felony really ain't it chief. That's nothing compared to forensics or having every thread tie back to your suspect.
i feel like him directly asking dierdra to test the dna prooves hes innocent, theres so many chances for that dna to be his, but he believes it isnt his, he STAUNCHLY believes it isnt his. I dont think any guilty person would ask you to bring up forgotten evidence
This should be a movie
Yeah it should
There's an HBO show called "The Night Of" very similar
@@RustyWerben fantastic show
or at least a sit down video
HBO show on this just started. episode 1 is out now
I think he did it, but Jay was definitely more involved. He just got smart fast and got a deal first, ratting out Adnan and shifting all the blame onto him. The police were so desperate to make it fit and Jay was smarter than them. The cops and prosecutors wanted it to fit so badly that they bungled up everything.
Adnan must have kidnapped Hae, then went to Jay for help. Either he killed her and had Jay drive the car somewhere then drop him off back at the school or they tied her up and he killed her later ( there was a rope found near her body). So either Jay stayed with the body or at least knew where it was hidden ( because he knew where Hae's car was) or he drove around with the girl tied up in the car.
He picked Adnan up again, and then they disposed of the body together ( enough time after school and practice to do it all).
Adnan knows if he says Jay did it with me, he will lose the only thing he has: his consistent claims of innocence. Jay has said that Adnan was a coward, and Adnan can't actually be angry at Jay because he knows what he did. Implicating Jay implicates him.
For sure Jay and Jen did it when conveniently they had Adnan’s phone. Jay was too panicky about getting caught. He’s the only one behaving in a suspicious manner. That lunatic murderer is out while someone innocent is facing life in prison. He killed Hae and felt responsible so thought that if he admitted to being an accomplice he’d get fewer to no time and get away with it. Convenient.
What was Jay's motive?
@@milart12 good question on the murder itself. While pinning Adnan could have a motive (perhaps jealousy of Adnan close friendship with stephanie)
Jay also gave a description saying how deep the grave was but this wasn’t mentioned again.. if what he said is correct surely this means a lot ?
Ughhh!! I have sooo many questions! It’s fascinating, but I really wish they figure it out, and May she Rest In Peace, I think we forget someone was awfully murdered, and we just want to focus on the case details.
I finished this Podcast but I’ll be watching the HBO documentary...very interesting to say the least.
Sooo soo much involved in this whole case which is why I see it as a dream case for teaching purposes.
-Teenagers
-Minorities
-Religion
-Interrogations
-Jurors
-Witness
-1990s
-Technology
Help me out if I missed anything. You can write a 10 page paper on any of those topics and how it affected the case.
We are currently working on the podcast in my english class. I’m a senior, and I couldn’t help listening at home.
What a fantastic job you have done. I cried. I hope the best for him now that he is a free man.
how do you forget a whole afternoon of the last day you saw and spoke to someone that you deeply cared about?.... unless you were drugged and still functional on those drugs and just can't remember anything about what you did. I think it's too convenient for him to simply say he can't remember a few hours of that very critical time frame. Could he have been on some sort of drug that affects the memories? Jen described Adnan's body language as seemingly drugged out or exhausted and lethargic or withdrawn and worried.. was it some type of drug? OR was he having physical reactions to the act that was just committed and the work he needed to do to cover it up? I know it looks like Jay had no reason or motive to kill Hae, but what was his reason to help bury the body instead of just pretending he would help and then call the cops on Adnan for murdering their friend! HOW did Hae's car get to where it was when Jay told the police about it's location?
Adnan has said multiple times that he can't remember, and his use of drugs may have influenced the events that occurred.
I totally do not remember the entire day my brother was killed in a car accident. I remember the phone call and then I vomited and nothing until the next day. Memory works that way- in snapshots and moments like video clips. Not in movies of entire days or weeks.
To me, the most damning thing against Adnan, was when the judge admonished him during the first trial for saying to Jay, You're pathetic. According to Jay, after the murder Adnan had said words to the effect of, all these guys thinking they're bad ass, but I killed somebody with my bare hands. Jay seems to have been a bad ass wannabe, so Adnan saying, You're pathetic would make sense in that context. Also, what would be the motive for Jay to have done the killing or for lying?
To me, if someone were trying to frame me for something I know they did or were involved in, I would think they're pathetic and weak for blaming an innocent person. There is always different meanings to things. You can't pin someone's innocence/guilt on a single statement even if you really are convinced. Because you don't know what they were truly thinking. It's irrelevant to the facts and the details of the day and what prove other people's whereabouts at the time of the murder etc.
@@TASHXFILES It can also mean, how pathetic we could of got away with it, but you snitched
The amount of lies Jay told, I'll call him pathetic too.
Why isn't he telling the whole truth... why making stuff up which don't even make sense. If only Jay told the whole truth, we weren't be here watching, talking about this case.
Serial podcast!!!!! Please revisit when more comes to light!!! Please!
Jay did it. I knew ever since episode 1. That supposedly Adnan said "He was going to kill that bitch." He said it so aggressively. Like if those were his own words.
of course he is a liar and he minimised his involvement so he could get away scot free..but he helped adnan, after al, adnan is the true killer..for jay to kill her without any motive is ridiculous, and all others coincidences that would have to align,almost impossibly, to make adnan innocent..leakin park pings, nisha call, his memory, no alibi(oh enough with the asia mclain nonsene, she is enjoying her 15 minutes of fame and using it for her book she could possibly be mistaken as well, there was no snow that day)..no way, they both did it..and they both lied..jay did what he did out of fear of some or other evidence getting caught or adnan getting caught, beter make the move first so that the system is on his side..
Jay clearly had no real criminal past before this, selling weed is nothing...all his friends say he only acted tough and was not a killer type of rough guy..he had a girlfriend who all said was one of the prettiest girls in school..absolutely no reason to kill hae..the girl still loved him she was with him in court ..
I haven’t heard any information on whether they checked if the man who found Hae’s body and Jay had any connection? Even in passing? I feel like this guy didn’t just happen upon her body. I feel like he may have been a “directed” to be a random guy who found her body
Jen Pusateri is definitely not telling the entire truth. I think she has alot more involvement than shes putting on. She also showed anger when being questioned on the documentary which is a telltale sign of a liar.
She might just be fed up, after all she's probably sick of getting questioned about this case all these years. She kinda cracks me up actually.
on contrary she seemed most innocent based on how relaxed and open to talk she was in documenarty..of course she is frustrated, she doesnt seem like rich or successful, her teeth look fucked from drugs..and on top of that if another trial or something comes up she has to spend so much time and stress on it
The one question I want answering is why didn't he ever try to ring her when she was just missing. If a woman I loved was missing I would of rang her 100 times hope in that she would pick up and say I am ok I just needed to get away. He never rang her not once is that because he new she was dead. That makes me think he did it.
It's possible Jay had his phone, saw the name "Nisha" and thought maybe it was a fake name, called and tried to see if it was actually his gf or not...
That one guy that worked with Jay at the store said that Jay was scared of the murderer coming after him. Do you guys think its possible that, since he never specified Adnan, the killer is someone else and still out there? Jay could have been so afraid of this guy that he framed Adnan because he was an easy target.
And that also explains why Jay would have the info about where the car was.
I just.. idk. This is just one of my theories. The facts just don't line up! So many people are telling a different story and you really never know who to believe.
And the whole theory with this Ronald Lee Moore being the murderer. It doesn't line up. Sure, him being realised 14 days prior to Hae's murder is weird, but I think it's just a coincidence.
Deadra (idk how to spell her name) said he raped his victims, but Hae's rape test thing came back negetive, right? It just doesn't add up
I know this is way too late but did Adnan get rid of his shoes,clothes?. Did they find any personal effects at his house connected to a murder?.Why did Jay do everything that a murderer would do yet Adnan seems not to have done ?.
Yes exactly my thoughts. And was jenn so dumb..how can she believe jay ? He dumped everything in front of her and she never suspected him
Also,Sarah is saying that the "smoking gun" is the Nischa call. Nischa said that thia call happened in Jay's work place. But Jay's Boss at the time said that Jay start work for him in the end of january. So if we only could have the end of january phone records to see if there is another call to Nischa I think a very big suspicion will be gone.
It was jay and Jenn. There’s a spot on theory on Reddit that explains it perfectly
I don't think that Adnan was the one who committed the crime based on all of the evidence, I think that Jay was the one that had a hand in the murder somehow based on all of the facts. Loved the podcast and can't wait to see how his trial turns out.
You did amazing job- I believe Stephanie has a major role in this and brought Jay in to help her since she knew he would do anything she asked. I got a theory: I believe Stephanie was jealous of Hae because in a lot of ways she got what she wanted which was Adnan remember that Adnan said he never really stop messing with Stephanie after they broke up? Then he got with Hae!!!. So imagine you are Prom Queen and you prom King is the boy you like? to then have that big day ruined by this new girl Adnan is crushing on? Sheesh let’s take it a step forward. Stephanie was in the friend group with Jay, Jen and the rest of the clan( who lied the most to the cops? Jay & Stephanie group of friends. We know that Jen was Jays ride a die friend you know the friend that also sold weed with him so when he got caught with all those drugs she got caught and is how she was wheeled in to this story by the COPS!!! they told them you keep up this story and we won’t charge you for possession of weed. That’s why thier story didn’t make sense but in someway connected to the cell phone data. Just recently they asked her again what happened and then showed her evidence that she was lying she got upset flustered and said “ I don’t give a shit about this I’m done” let’s to take it back real quick. On the day of the alleged murder it happened to be Stephanie bday 🧐. I think she tried to stir issues up between Hae and Dawn by telling him she cheating on him with Adnan out of rage Dawn killed Hae and it was orchestrated by Stephanie and she confided in Jay about part of the story but not all and he took the fall for her; notice in Jays hearing the only one in the courtroom was STEPHANIE!!.., also the only one the won’t speak about it and almost disappeared but Jay always was concerned about her safety around Adnan why? It’s obvious why he was paranoid that Adnan would find out what Stephanie did that he would hurt her. also I’m in the legal field and never heard of a prosecutor hiring a private attorney and gave zero jail time for someone who participated in murder in MD. Fast forward to Jays adult life he has a lengthy rap sheet with assaults with officers, burglary etc but server 0 time or was charged bare minimum. That’s called an informant/rat and after he took the deal he was indebted to the police. Also just recently Jah assaulted his ex girlfriend bad and the cops released him in an hours time with no bail nothing, also the ex girlfriend said he always was released within hours of any crimes with no bail or most cases charged lol well damn isn’t he lucky 🍀…. I can go on but it’s to long already.
I like your theory.
I’m pretty sure Don did it ... his alibi was his boss from work then come to find out his mom is his boss and the clock in codes he use was not even his.... its super fishy..
I started listening to this podcast over the summer, but I never ended up finishing it. Now my AP English has us listening to it and been doing assignments on it and we have to look into the evidence a lot, but I still have no idea what is true and what is not.
Can you help me lmaoo
bre what you need help with?
Brooke Thole 4-5 big ideas or pieces of information, and 2-3 quotes
I don’t know how you can have trace evidence like that and not test at least some of it. Finger nail scraping especially. Did the defense not fight to have that stuff tested? I don’t understand. The only reason I would not want those tests done, is if I were guilty. I understand it probably isn’t cheap, but Adnon’s parents, and religious community were already dumping money into this super awesome defense lawyer...so awesome she couldn’t fight for the dna testing that could have exonerated him? Especially when the prosecution was pushing for the death penalty. You are going to kill a man with circumstantial evidence, and one actual witness? His attorney didn’t appear to believe in him.
Would so love to tell you what is wrong here in what you have written :)
Perhaps she knew he was guilty so.
If the Nisha call was a butt dial, how did Jay know they happened to butt dial the “girl in silver spring”? It’s not like he remembered her name. It would have been just some number or some contact. How would he have known or guessed it was the girl in SS? It wasn’t a butt dial
After this series my question is this: If not Jay, and not Adnan, then who is Jay protecting? Stephanie? DNA tests results showed an unidentified female.
Also did police try to find the clothes Jay disposed of? Where are they.
It bothers me that the police believe jays story. Why .. He had the shovels, knew where the car was, threw his clothes away, had the bad reputation & home life … BUT what he had the most of, was a story with plenty of inconsistencies!!!
Regardless of it all, there was never enough evidence to of charged Adnan with murder and send him away to prison at the age of 17.
Im so thankful my interest in this case happened after Adnan has been released.
Sending love & strength to Hays family. Hopefully this gets figured out ❤️
Everyone, listen to truth and justice podcast by Bob Ruff and then listen to his replies to the Prosecutors podcast's each episode, after listening to it you'll see the truth clearly. ✌
After listening to this series, I'm honestly torn over his guilt or innocence. But with the evidence presented (or lack thereof), there's no way I would have been able to convict him. The reasonable doubt in this case is palpable.
Were "butt dials" really a thing yet ?
I remember flip phones and slide type at that time ..
I use to get a lot of butt dials as my name being with A, I was often at the top of someones phone book.
Trac phones
What if Jay called that girl from Adnan‘s phone and acted like he was adnan for a brief second just trying to talk like him to make the girl believe it was at nine and then said hang out and talk to my buddy Jay. Jay could’ve been by himself acting like Edna and for those brief moments to make the girl believe they were together. The only reason I think this may not be true is because I don’t know if Jay would have been that smart or thinking on that level, but another thing that seems to keep coming up is that Jay is very streetsmart which tells me he could’ve thought of that so I don’t know just thinking out loud
I’ve always wondered that there was corruption with the police. Since Jay had a criminal record they convinced him to admit to parts of it to lesson other charges to makes the police look better. Maybe they already already knew where the car was. I dunno.
Adnan clearly did it. This series was over with 6 episodes ago
But it isn’t just about if he did it. It’s the how and with who. Was Jays story fully true, probably not, the whole thing just doesn’t full add up and obviously it isn’t always gonna have to, but it must have more to it
@@charismasands80 you guys are stuck on litle inconsistencies like BestBuy angle in story...or the come and get me call...i think all these things can be simply explained by assuming jay is making up a lot of sh*t to minimise his involvement, e.g i personally believe they both went scouting for burial quiet location in morning, hence the sometimes westview mall sometimes another mall...of course jay will never admit to that part of the story, he would not then be an accomplice after the fact...
they BOTH did it, adnan being the primary guy with motive and idea..probably it started like an act of who has the bigger balls to do it and challenging each other manhood, but when adnan actually did it, jay panickd the fucck out and eventually confessed cleverly knowing adnan will not confess to jay;s involvement or clarify stuff becuase he would basically be admitting to guilt..
this also explains adnan's relatively chill attitude towards jay..i mean hell if i was in jail 20 years for a lie Jay said, i would be screaming abuses at him and tearing him apart any chance i got to speak..
@@charismasands80 lol not even gonna waste a minute arguing with someone so weak to attack me baselessly as violent
Sarah puts her finger on it when Adnan confesses the crime and in court, before the judge, jury and on watchers. Adnan blurts out "Your pathetic" or "pathetic", that's street talk for saying "your weak", "you caved", "you ratted me out". It also says Hae's death event was entirely between Adnan and Jay, canceling out any other party or stranger being involved. Case closed my friends. Feel sorry for the 17 year old who believed Rabia Chaudry not to confess, not to make a statement, not take a polygraph, make them prove it. With this type of thinking, make them prove it is pretty dam stupid. Cooperation is key to the best outcome. Adnan surprising has said " if anyone get's into a similar situation as mine, take the deal even if you didn't do it". He's absolutely right because if this was truly a miscarriage of justice that can be repaired at some point. Rabia's law school understanding of law, yet lack real world experience lead to Adnan's poor predicament. But gosh, look what it did for Rabia, from immigration counselor to celebrity, fame and job security, Adnan will have been locked up for at least 30 years, lots of cash from the defense fund(s), you might call Adnan her golden cash cow and Hae the proverbial sacrificial lamb.
Two years & still only rocking your own ‘Like’. No friends here know-it-all.
okay I've listened to this ending, well.... this is my third time and I can't get Jay out of my mind Jay is the key to this case. He the one that got away with murder. This is the tears he shed. Jay I know he's all wrapped up with lies but Jay and Jen's involvement to me is more than being said.
This whole case is built on circumstantial evidence but let’s be honest, there is a tun of circumstantial evidence in this case. I honestly believe he did it & I’m not sure why everyone is hoping on the innocent bandwagon.
Thank you
Agreed but they cops should of found BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT! They didnt, Jay is suspect af thou he likely didnt kill her. But too many unanswered questions, THE DETECTIVES NEED TO DO MORE DETECTING AND LESS LETS MAKE A DEAL!
I can’t believe there’s absolutely no CCTV at all.
So Adonon made a plot to kill his ex girlfriend, plotted how he was going to get in her car, where he was going to do it, but had to go to Jay's house to get shovels? Jay killed that girl.
its ADNON
The only thing we know for sure is that Jay knew where the car was. So, either he's telling the truth (many inconsistencies=reasonable doubt), he's protecting the real killer (who/why?) or he himself killed Hae. As for the motive, think about it, Adnan is the sweetheart of the school, Stephanie's best friend, Stephanie's parents liked Adnan and didn't like Jay. Jay, in his own words, was the "criminal element", an "outcast", a school drop-out, weed seller, etc. Could he have become extremely jealous of Adnan and plotted all that against him? And even if he was telling the truth, he would be as bad as Adnan! Come on, Adnan supposedly told Jay before hand, then Jay helped Adnan dig a grave and bury the body! How could he have got away with all that that easily?? No jail time?? After listening to all that and watching some other documentaries on the case, I became more inclined to believe Jay did it or at least he's quite as bad as the killer himself and not some sort of hero, who saved the day, like the judge portrayed him while letting him off the hook. And I never felt remorse or distress in his voice or appearances.
That could easily been fed to him when they weren't recording during his interview with the police.
My only question (that's a lie but the one I'm dying to ask) is did no one check the phone records from Neesha's phone? Did anyone see if the call from Adnan was missed or picked up? If the only time she ever talked to Jay on the phone was that one time when he was at the video store, then if the call was picked up that day she must have only talked to Adnan (which also, in this case, why you lying Jay?). If it was a missed call this proves what Adnan is saying... no?
I used to have my doubts about Adnan's innocence. However, now that his conviction was overturned because of new evidence, I'm leaning towards he didn't do it and just got really unlucky.
Regardless of his guilt or innocence. There are at minimum 3 other suspects who should definitely not been cleared with what they have for evidence. So definitely there is reasonable doubt on his guilt. His defense attorney was a POS… and basically she screwed him trying to get that appeal money. She was horrible and ultimately that is why he is serving life the whole trial should not have been hanging on a witness testimony that is not factual evidence I mean come on…
I’m shook. I have no idea what to think!
Yikes. I was pretty confident in guilt until I heard that response to the DNA testing. That was an honestly painful response that I wholeheartedly believe. I cannot believe someone would WANT the testing if there was even a sliver of a chance it was him. No one would be that stupid! Or they would try to mitigate if they happen to find something that was his. He did neither. I’m so lost now!
lol wat do u expect his answer to be ..no dont do it i dont want no dna testing..love how easily people like u r fooled..he is all in on it now, he almost has convinced his own self he is innocent..
So gullible. What should he say ?
@@michaelkennedy3372 what are you gonna say when they eventually determine who really killed Hae? Because it’s looking like it wasn’t Adnan. Remember Michael, you once believed in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy too.
i hate that everyone is doing this for adnans innocence, and not haes justice to get closure on who killed her.
She's not really likeable, or relatable. In her diary she's saying she's in love with Adnan and the very next day writes how she can't stop thinking of Don, and then not even a week later Don is her soul mate?
utility of lies? can't they just be really high and not remember the details or the realities be different?
ha, I know right. Seems like many of them were stoned all the time.
Disappointed on your wrap up on this..
May i criticized alil?
Point out all the "Facts" in your ending and stop asking the same questions that you've been asking in every episode.
Stay bias
I find it hard to come to a conclusion because of all open questions out there. You've only let us hear what you find important to the case. I personally would like hear more phone calls and him talking, responses to your question. This is a smart man. Thinks very rationally and so many people do not do. I think his thinking is beyound his years, which doesnt come from being in prision, makes me think he so well aware at 17. His thinking process is not of normalcy of a general person. Even at his age now.
Through this whole thing i just kept thinking that the only theory that makes perfect sense (in my mind) is that Jay framed Adnan. Most of the witness testimonies from that day don’t add up. Jay had his car and phone and knew where the car was. I am a little confused why jay wouldn’t have lead the police to the body if he had buried it along with Adnan. None the less, definitely not enough evidence for Adnan to be in jail. I really believe the police had a lot to do with Jay’s side of this and keeping him out of jail. If it were the other way around, Jay on the stand, I really do think the whole story would make a lot more sense.
From episode 1 to 12, I don’t believe Jay lied about the major issue. Inconsistencies are prosecution’s poor coaching.
Jay did it and Adnan handed him the tools without knowing it
Well, this was a letdown. A case like this really isn't all that intriguing if there isn't a big reveal at the end. Now it's just a bunch of information and misinformation and absolutely nothing has changed after it's over. If Adnan is ever found not guilty and an episode 13 is made of this, it will be gold though.
Almost everyone that talks about Jay say how much he lies. Even if it's little lies, like he changes little details here and there or lies to make himself seem cool. They all mention it. It sounds like he has a real problem with the truth. And for him to tell do many people his side of the story and it never be the same telling twice makes me feel like he's never told the whole truth of it to anyone.
Even though his conviction was just vacated i believe he’s 100% guilty! But he served 23 years and that’s better than nothing!
Agreed. I think he did it but i think 23 years is enough and keeping him for life will not bring her back
2:32 I never laughed so much in class when we heard this LMAO
My own thoughts, Adnan killed Hae!! I'm sure of it....however Jay is not telling the complete truth and had a bigger part to play, and that whole day played out differently...and we will never know what truly happen that day, but I am fairly certain that Adnan did it. To not remember what you did the day your ex girlfriend went missing (I'm not even talking about now, but even to not remember at the time this all happened), to be linked to Jay that whole day, give him your car, phone etc....Adnan came to Jay either before that day, or early that day and Jay helped him organize what would happen with Hae....this whole shit about a present is bull shit. Adnan you are guilty...but under court law did they have enough on you to go to prison...or more so with Jays clear lies I don't think so.....but I think they did get you. If you are released I don't think you would be of harm to society, I don't think you are a serial murderer, I believe you felt such a sense of portrayal and you couldn't handle your emotions and your religious teachings fed into pre-haps your world view of women, and the pressure from your family etc had a part to play. but if this was my sister, cousin or friend...I would want and fight for you to stay in prison....and also Jay.
Go on and listen to truth and justice podcast by Bob Ruff and then listen to his replies to the Prosecutors podcast's each episode and then tell me how do you think, I'm sure you'll feel different.
Just glad he is walking free these days poor guy got his life stolen from him
He killed her
*JW:* _What_ you get me wrapped up in?
*Interrogator:* You asked him _why_ he got you wrapped up in this?
Your point??
Is there any way to prove/disprove if the answerphone was actually on that phone at the time as I assume they can be added/removed by request
I need this 12 hours of my life back! Hyped me all up to think wed find out something.. i dont think Adnon did it tho.. still side eyeing Jay
You were anyways going to waste them 🙄
But gosh, in the end, I think it's most likely Adnan did it. Which is terrifying because he is such a likeable person and I found myself believing him despite the evidence against him. (His attorney was CRAZY not to put him on the stand, he is so convincing.) If he didn't do it, I need to know how Jay knew where the car was. If it's possible Jay did it and Adnan didn't know, why hasn't that theory been brought forth?
If Adnan was guilty wouldn't he make up an alibi like most guilty people do? If Adnan was a sociopath etc I doubt he'd even remember Stephanies birthday let alone get her a gift or give two craps if Jay got her a gift orrrrr loan Jay his car and phone half the day .... That's not how sociopaths acts.
You can't just make up an albi an alibi by its very nature is proof you couldn't have done it.