Do you think you could do a video going over all of the geometry of hooping a head/block? Is there a rule of thumb for hoop/gasket compression vs. bore diam? If all that is kind of "secret sauce" than no worries. I'm working on an unconventional engine with a 72mm bore and I'm looking to run around 40-45psi boost at ~8.5:1 static CR, and it's hard to develop a starting point for o-ringing/hooping. Thanks for the great video!
The specs I stated in the video are what we have found works for our specific application. Every application varies but a good place to start would be a ring that protrudes about .010" and a receiver groove that is about 80% of protrusion and 25% larger in width. A properly annealed copper head gasket is also very critical.
I never seen it done like that. I've seen it where the hoops are cut and seated in the head and receiver grooves are cut into the head. I've been out of working with race engines for 20 years.
I can only imagine how carefull you need to be, to press these things into the cylinder head. Is there even any way to get them out again, if you mess up?
Yes, they are tough! And yes, usually I will weld in a piece of welding rod and work it up out of the groove until I can get some pliers on it. Not a fun job though!
If you were to line it up perfectly, and use a large flat piece of delrin, would you be able to press one in perfectly? Or is the risk too high? Also super curious if these are worth it to run on a boxer (think EJ/FA series Subaru) to help combat compression loss through the head gaskets? I know there's a "firelock" gasket that IAG makes, but this looks better than a copper wire!
I have tried on large piece, but there is no good way to make sure it is started straight. I bent a few rings with those trials. This will work on any internal combustion engine, but it usually is cost prohibitive unless you are running a lot of boost.
@@paragonengines1924 Could you not machine a shoulder onto a piece with say .060" to give .020" for starting the ring the head and then machine .040" shoulder on the opposite side to continue and then a second piece with a shoulder to give the final stick out?
@@paragonengines1924 thanks for the information man cause im used to seeing plain old cylinder heads that's why im wondering what are those rings for but damn 2500 HP it's a beast in the making.
Well usually O-rings are a steel wire that is cut and fit into the groove. These hoops are one solid piece and have much more support in the cylinder head than a wire does. You can also run more protrusion with a hoop than you can with a traditional O-ring. So, it's the same theory but with better execution.
They warm up too quickly being they are so thin. They won't expand as much as the aluminum when they are hot, so I have found that warming the head works better.
@@paragonengines1924 Ah! I see, thanks. Receiver groove? Do I understand correctly if I think the hoop does not seal against the head gasket but seals into another groove in the block? That must really demand extreme precision work.
The hoop seals against the gasket, it presses the gasket into the receiver groove. It locks the gasket into the groove and creates a seal in multiple dimensions for more holding pressure.
@@paragonengines1924 Okay. Then the receiver groove itself must be much wider than the groove in the head, why the very tight tolerances I imagined isn't called for - thanks.
Well usually O-rings are a steel wire that is cut and fit into the groove. These hoops are one solid piece and have much more support in the cylinder head than a wire does. You can also run more protrusion with a hoop than you can with a traditional O-ring. So, it's the same theory but with better execution.
This is a video of a viper with an engine that we recently completed with the same cylinder head package you see in the video. I'll let you be the judge if this is made up... ua-cam.com/video/zwWZeTzWaHA/v-deo.html
New sub. Interesting shop. A walk round and background story would be cool.
Thanks for the support! We can make that happen one day!
Do you think you could do a video going over all of the geometry of hooping a head/block? Is there a rule of thumb for hoop/gasket compression vs. bore diam? If all that is kind of "secret sauce" than no worries. I'm working on an unconventional engine with a 72mm bore and I'm looking to run around 40-45psi boost at ~8.5:1 static CR, and it's hard to develop a starting point for o-ringing/hooping. Thanks for the great video!
The specs I stated in the video are what we have found works for our specific application. Every application varies but a good place to start would be a ring that protrudes about .010" and a receiver groove that is about 80% of protrusion and 25% larger in width. A properly annealed copper head gasket is also very critical.
Such great channel👍🏻 I’m shocked you only have less than 500 subscribers😱
We are just getting started! I appreciate the support!
@@paragonengines1924 keep ‘em coming! 🤟🏻
I never seen it done like that. I've seen it where the hoops are cut and seated in the head and receiver grooves are cut into the head. I've been out of working with race engines for 20 years.
There are plenty of different way to do it, this is the way that works best for me!
I can only imagine how carefull you need to be, to press these things into the cylinder head.
Is there even any way to get them out again, if you mess up?
Yes, they are tough! And yes, usually I will weld in a piece of welding rod and work it up out of the groove until I can get some pliers on it. Not a fun job though!
you ever done mini hoops where you can still use MLS gasket like TKM?
We have not. This system works well for our application and the copper gaskets are cheaper than the MLS gaskets.
If you were to line it up perfectly, and use a large flat piece of delrin, would you be able to press one in perfectly? Or is the risk too high?
Also super curious if these are worth it to run on a boxer (think EJ/FA series Subaru) to help combat compression loss through the head gaskets? I know there's a "firelock" gasket that IAG makes, but this looks better than a copper wire!
I have tried on large piece, but there is no good way to make sure it is started straight. I bent a few rings with those trials. This will work on any internal combustion engine, but it usually is cost prohibitive unless you are running a lot of boost.
@@paragonengines1924 Could you not machine a shoulder onto a piece with say .060" to give .020" for starting the ring the head and then machine .040" shoulder on the opposite side to continue and then a second piece with a shoulder to give the final stick out?
You could do that, and I have tried something similar with mixed results. It is harder than you would think to set the whole ring in at once.
That was a real chore. If you have to take them out, how in the world do you accomplish that?
They usually tig weld a piece of rod to it to pull them out
Yes, just had to do something like that the other day! Really not fun!
How much boost you running on that? All of it right? Good vid
I would guess 40-50psi.
These usually run about 30 PSI. They don't have the thickest deck on the heads, so this combats the flex in the head.
does having this rings in the cylinder head help with the compression and minimizing blowing the head gasket?
Yes! It's the best way to stop a head gasket failure in this application!
@@paragonengines1924 thanks for the information man cause im used to seeing plain old cylinder heads that's why im wondering what are those rings for but damn 2500 HP it's a beast in the making.
Old school it's called O ringing
Thats what we have always called it also.. 🤷🏻
Well usually O-rings are a steel wire that is cut and fit into the groove. These hoops are one solid piece and have much more support in the cylinder head than a wire does. You can also run more protrusion with a hoop than you can with a traditional O-ring. So, it's the same theory but with better execution.
Did you try freezing the hoops or would that decrease the diameter causing it not to seat?
They warm up too quickly being they are so thin. They won't expand as much as the aluminum when they are hot, so I have found that warming the head works better.
Is there any kind of lead in chamfer on the groove?
No, it is a sharp edge. The ring does have a very light chamfer on the bottom edges.
Where do you get your fuel hoops??
I get them from VED (visner engine development).
@@paragonengines1924 Thank you!
So, what is the purpose of flame hoops?
They create a better seal for high horsepower when used with a copper gasket and receiver groove on the opposite side.
@@paragonengines1924
Ah! I see, thanks.
Receiver groove? Do I understand correctly if I think the hoop does not seal against the head gasket but seals into another groove in the block? That must really demand extreme precision work.
The hoop seals against the gasket, it presses the gasket into the receiver groove. It locks the gasket into the groove and creates a seal in multiple dimensions for more holding pressure.
@@paragonengines1924
Okay. Then the receiver groove itself must be much wider than the groove in the head, why the very tight tolerances I imagined isn't called for - thanks.
Wouldn't it be easier just to use a brass punch and a hammer or a delrin punch and a hammer
You would think, but they are very fragile and need to be straight going in, otherwise they would bend.
"Top fuel flame hoops"?? Around here that's always been known as O-ringing the heads. 😕
Well usually O-rings are a steel wire that is cut and fit into the groove. These hoops are one solid piece and have much more support in the cylinder head than a wire does. You can also run more protrusion with a hoop than you can with a traditional O-ring. So, it's the same theory but with better execution.
Sub keep up the content
Thank you! I appreciate the support!
PITA
Indeed!
Here's another video of made-up outrageous hp claims....
This is a video of a viper with an engine that we recently completed with the same cylinder head package you see in the video. I'll let you be the judge if this is made up...
ua-cam.com/video/zwWZeTzWaHA/v-deo.html
Uh, that validates the HP claim.👍 ..good work…👌