I o-ring and receiver groove every GMC 6 block I use in LSR competition. As long as the split is not near a water passage or between cylinders there had never been a failure at 14-1 compression. Granted this is for very high HP engines but the old way (if you can find someone to do it) will work just fine. Every thing I do is done on a Bridgeport mill and an Isky groove tool for the block. Steve’s skills and knowledge is far above mine and I thank him for sharing what is done with these high HP competition engines. There are Diesel engine builders here on YT which show the older technology way.
About 15 years ago I did something similar with 6, 540 BBC Offshore TT motors. I came in to the project after the blocks were purchased. They had 7/16 studs and even new ones made from the same material as ARP's baddest rod bolts it would still leak between some cylinders at 2200 hp so I made similar rings (called them flame rings) except they went into the block and heads about .05" (.105'ish tall ring if I recall or maybe .04-.04/.085"). The copper head gasket was not part of the sealing and was cut slightly larger than the ring OD. The dowels were removed and the rings positioned the heads. The theory was if the head lifted a little it wouldn't compromise the combustion seal. It was a band aide but it worked and I heard some time ago atleast a couple of the engines are still running.
funny in the sixties the square hole was filled with square piano wire fitted perfectly and sealed 100% for super charged v8 motors = if the machined surface in the recieving sealing area is rounded upon machining then a round wire would be used !
Could use that machine to make o-ring groves for the coolant ports massage the tolerances on the hoops and go gasket-less just run viton o rings and hoops
Great video! Steve can you talk about or make a follow up video explaining how you seal the copper gasket if running water jacketed block and how you would resurface the head with the hoops in it when it comes in for a freshen up and valve job? Thank you.
Just curious why in the first example you didn’t have the wire bottomed out in the block groove. Wouldn’t a seal there increase seal contact by 50%? Very informative nonetheless.
Today on Steve tech I'm going to draw a sharpie diagram on heads most folks only dream of! lol. All jokes aside Steve, thanks for sharing at least some of your knowledge, I've heard of folks using hoops but surely never understood it as well as I do now thanks to you. Take care
in my country most of people use a 2 litr L4 straigh engine which has removable wet liners and aluminium head and block 😅 ..the problem is that because the head gasket is allways exposed to water directly it does not take long for the gasket to become weak and after couple of months water finally finds its way through into the cylinders which most of the time happens between cyl N. 2&3 ... what do you proffesionals suggest .. the way outa this can save thousands of people milions of dollars .
Steve what your describing is the difference between orings and firering in the diesel world. But we do orings in the head I use 062 with a boring head on a mill. The reason thees isnt a receiver groove is we still use the stock head gasket with a oring. The fire ring gets the receiver in the block. and is an actual machined square ring thats .105 x .200
Is it faster/better finish to run the groove in the head with an end mill rather than a boring head? I'd have expected a boring head to be much quicker once you have it set to diameter.
The diameter of the groove has to be dead nuts for the ring to fit into. Setting a boring head to cut an exact face cut diameter is problematic. How would you accurately measure what you are cutting? A caliper isn't accurate enough. Circular interpolation using the CNC is the correct way to do this. I do this exactly the way Steve describes at my shop.
@@stevedemirjian8236 I thought about that when I made the comment. I'd make a test cut on scrap, check fitment of the ring, adjust, and once I got the boring head dialed in I'd never adjust it. I have minimal engine building experience though, and not a whole lot of machining experience (can run a mill, lathe, surface grinder, cnc machining center - just saying it isn't what I'm doing on a daily basis)
Has there ever been a block/head with a "step" built into the mating surface. I realize it would make it nearly Impossible to surface, but I was just curious.
Anyone ever tell you you're fukin amazing!!!? I just subscribed and love all the info on high horse engine building. I want to thank you on taking time to make these videos!!
I get the ring setting in the cylinder sleeve because its a lot stronger than the aluminum, but on the head its within like 2mm of the water jacket and you have to fit two of them in there, that can't be that good.
@@FadetoBlack1463 that answer would be better suited with the engine builder per the application. If you are attempting this yourself on a budget build you will go the cheap route.
Old Old Old tech Wills rings . Nothing new at all rings are actually steel tubes filled with nitrogen gas into a grove with a ROUNDED bottom to suit the tube ran them 30 plus years ago with NO modification the the block also only used a gasket for oil and water no head gasket over the WILLS RING
I was under the impression that cutting a square bottom groove was for a copper wire to deform and "lock" into each of the mating surfaces. Also the split in the copper wire would "flow" into each other becoming one piece once torqued.
Stainless is about Grade 2 hardness, I'd presume soft enough under the applied clamping forces per its mass compressed in this mechanical application. Would be nice to see a used ring removed after it has been compressed an ran a couple of times, that would tell us a lot more. Maybe it's part 1 or he's just showing off some machinery. I'd buy an engine out of his shop, they're obviously build quality oriented.
It's worth it. I just payed my machine shop $700 to port match my heads an intake. Picked up 5hp. That $140 per 1hp!!!! Gonna win my next race now baby!!!!! Yeah!!!!
![50HP To 5000HP | Choosing Your Head Gasket | SCE Gaskets [TECH TALK]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tcMF7DuugEI/mqdefault.jpg)
I o-ring and receiver groove every GMC 6 block I use in LSR competition. As long as the split is not near a water passage or between cylinders there had never been a failure at 14-1 compression. Granted this is for very high HP engines but the old way (if you can find someone to do it) will work just fine. Every thing I do is done on a Bridgeport mill and an Isky groove tool for the block.
Steve’s skills and knowledge is far above mine and I thank him for sharing what is done with these high HP competition engines.
There are Diesel engine builders here on YT which show the older technology way.
Which diesel engine builders show it here on UA-cam? I'd be interested in watching that.
Makes complete sense. Watch someone else do it with a plate and cutter by hand and wondered how accurate that was. Now I know.
About 15 years ago I did something similar with 6, 540 BBC Offshore TT motors. I came in to the project after the blocks were purchased. They had 7/16 studs and even new ones made from the same material as ARP's baddest rod bolts it would still leak between some cylinders at 2200 hp so I made similar rings (called them flame rings) except they went into the block and heads about .05" (.105'ish tall ring if I recall or maybe .04-.04/.085"). The copper head gasket was not part of the sealing and was cut slightly larger than the ring OD. The dowels were removed and the rings positioned the heads. The theory was if the head lifted a little it wouldn't compromise the combustion seal. It was a band aide but it worked and I heard some time ago atleast a couple of the engines are still running.
Very nice. You explain things very well and I appreciate all the reasoning behind the things you do. Keep it up!
Great video. Much appreciated. I couldn’t get the type of head gaskets which could be used with the hoop systems.
This is what separates the Steve Morris building from the rest. Maybe one day I can get you guys to build me a procharged sbf 9.2 for me!
Very interesting, appreciate the videos Steve
Loved it imagine if it was like E seals we use on aircraft they stay kinda springy to deal with temps.
funny in the sixties the square hole was filled with square piano wire fitted perfectly and sealed 100% for super charged v8 motors = if the machined surface in the recieving sealing area is rounded upon machining then a round wire would be used !
Mmmmmmmm Brodix.Very cool, this looks like it would help the problem with Porsche and Subaru heads walking around and ripping the gaskets up.
Could use that machine to make o-ring groves for the coolant ports massage the tolerances on the hoops and go gasket-less just run viton o rings and hoops
Like the Boss 429 Ford was back in the 60's. (other than no receiver in the block)
Like Detroit diesels are factory
Great video! Steve can you talk about or make a follow up video explaining how you seal the copper gasket if running water jacketed block and how you would resurface the head with the hoops in it when it comes in for a freshen up and valve job? Thank you.
Just curious why in the first example you didn’t have the wire bottomed out in the block groove. Wouldn’t a seal there increase seal contact by 50%? Very informative nonetheless.
Today on Steve tech I'm going to draw a sharpie diagram on heads most folks only dream of! lol. All jokes aside Steve, thanks for sharing at least some of your knowledge, I've heard of folks using hoops but surely never understood it as well as I do now thanks to you. Take care
Love it, Steve.
Some just can’t fathom what your doing is how you make regular go real big,...and keep going.
I have a 331 hemi that was done to in the late 60's or early 70's it was cut into the heads cool stuff thanks for your video
in my country most of people use a 2 litr L4 straigh engine which has removable wet liners and aluminium head and block 😅 ..the problem is that because the head gasket is allways exposed to water directly it does not take long for the gasket to become weak and after couple of months water finally finds its way through into the cylinders which most of the time happens between cyl N. 2&3 ... what do you proffesionals suggest .. the way outa this can save thousands of people milions of dollars .
the engine is PSA XU7jp
we call that "Fire ring" on diesels
our fire rings are a little fancier I think, but I was just gonna comment the same thing
You should put your website or company info in the description for people who want to pay you for your service. Thanks for the info...
We are www.enginebuildermag.com and Steve Morris Engines is www.stevemorrisengines.com
Steve what your describing is the difference between orings and firering in the diesel world. But we do orings in the head I use 062 with a boring head on a mill. The reason thees isnt a receiver groove is we still use the stock head gasket with a oring. The fire ring gets the receiver in the block. and is an actual machined square ring thats .105 x .200
Does this help quench to be better Steve ?
Thanks for doing this the right American way.
Thanks for sharing!
I hope one day I can afford one of your engines that would be a dream come true my friend look up to your work Steve have a great day!
Maybe using the block with the hoop installed to mark the area where the hoops go on the heads. No room for error here.
I like that much better than the basic o ring setups.
Is it faster/better finish to run the groove in the head with an end mill rather than a boring head? I'd have expected a boring head to be much quicker once you have it set to diameter.
The diameter of the groove has to be dead nuts for the ring to fit into. Setting a boring head to cut an exact face cut diameter is problematic. How would you accurately measure what you are cutting? A caliper isn't accurate enough. Circular interpolation using the CNC is the correct way to do this. I do this exactly the way Steve describes at my shop.
@@stevedemirjian8236 I thought about that when I made the comment. I'd make a test cut on scrap, check fitment of the ring, adjust, and once I got the boring head dialed in I'd never adjust it.
I have minimal engine building experience though, and not a whole lot of machining experience (can run a mill, lathe, surface grinder, cnc machining center - just saying it isn't what I'm doing on a daily basis)
What's up with that wagon in the background? I was thinking about it when Steve was talking lol
Why dont you do the rings full square ? Top and bottom grooves square too ?
Can u also hoop the coolant passages?
How much do it cost to do block in cylinder heads on a big chief head Donovan aluminum block
Okay, that's interesting and all, but I need more details on that wagon in the background!
back in late 70´s toyota ofered something similar in the diesel L engine. Toyota´s first rubber timebelt engine.
What really concerns me is the structural integrity of he lifter valley in the block@ 13.20... hope it has the strength to handle the load. :D
Thanks for the video😊
Can you use an MLS head gasket still? And do you need a special head gasket to do this?
Great videos wish you worked on Lycoming experimental aircraft engines
How much to get such work done on a Nissan v 6 for a turbo build
When is the wagon coming out? Been along time
Great tech info!! Thank you.
Has there ever been a block/head with a "step" built into the mating surface. I realize it would make it nearly Impossible to surface, but I was just curious.
who did it first, tkm or SM
Can you get hoops for small bore stuff? Like 3.810" bore?
Anyone ever tell you you're fukin amazing!!!? I just subscribed and love all the info on high horse engine building. I want to thank you on taking time to make these videos!!
another great vid . Thanks for taking the time . u found a parts guy yet ?
Where to get the hoops
Steve I have a question. At how many lbs. would you say someone would need these O rings?
Next episode BOOST! Dawn on a blower! 😎
Any chance you are able to do this for a 4g63 engine and block
You should be able to.
Why not just mill grooves into the head and block so they mate with each other like a labyrinth seal?
Thx Steve
Seems like it would be more reliable than a normal headgasket as well, never have to worry about blowing one kinda situation lol
Should make the hoop hollow and then use copper inside or other material to hold up under squish.
Porsche uses a coil spring inside.
I'd think that the stainless would be much tougher than copper.
Therefore surface finish of cylinderheads should be good: writing on that goes way back better.....
Dig the shit out of these videos.
Dog photobomb at 1:38
I get the ring setting in the cylinder sleeve because its a lot stronger than the aluminum, but on the head its within like 2mm of the water jacket and you have to fit two of them in there, that can't be that good.
Most setups with this done are not water jacketed heads block. If its water jacketed conventional setup its still mostly purposed for drag racing.
@@scr454 Conventional meaning wire O-ring and receiver groove?
@@FadetoBlack1463 as in stock style blocks and heads meaning as well aftermarket parts design to factory spec
@@scr454 What I meant to ask was do you use a wire O-ring copper gasket in a conventional water jacketed engine over a hoop style set up? Thanks.
@@FadetoBlack1463 that answer would be better suited with the engine builder per the application. If you are attempting this yourself on a budget build you will go the cheap route.
Old Old Old tech Wills rings . Nothing new at all rings are actually steel tubes filled with nitrogen gas into a grove with a ROUNDED bottom to suit the tube ran them 30 plus years ago with NO modification the the block also only used a gasket for oil and water no head gasket over the WILLS RING
Better using wills rings
Your voice reminds me of the America's Most Wanted guy 😂
Ol' John Walsh?? 🤣👌
SM=🐐
I see a long top in the back that needs a ls7.
I was under the impression that cutting a square bottom groove was for a copper wire to deform and "lock" into each of the mating surfaces. Also the split in the copper wire would "flow" into each other becoming one piece once torqued.
Stainless is about Grade 2 hardness, I'd presume soft enough under the applied clamping forces per its mass compressed in this mechanical application. Would be nice to see a used ring removed after it has been compressed an ran a couple of times, that would tell us a lot more. Maybe it's part 1 or he's just showing off some machinery. I'd buy an engine out of his shop, they're obviously build quality oriented.
We don't have any paper to write on so we just use cylinder heads
I have that donr on my diesel engine, same thing. In the head.
It's worth it. I just payed my machine shop $700 to port match my heads an intake. Picked up 5hp. That $140 per 1hp!!!! Gonna win my next race now baby!!!!! Yeah!!!!
I mean you could port matched yourself for $50
@@jacobhoke581 I was being sarcastic. I was saying the machine shops charge why to much to give you little increments of power.
Like Like
BS dude
VW motors DONT have head gaskets. They figured it out 70+ yrs ago.
And they make like 30 hp!lmao
I still remember watching Bubba Jojangles win the top fuel nationals with his VW motor. Was an amazing time!
@@ryangulley2051 The VW makes more like 1400 HP from 120 cubic inches!
Awful explanations!