People who cant think outside the box are skeptics until it works, I used to have a machinist that did my racing engines that loved pushing the envelope and doing thinks that people said wouldn't work, he enjoyed proving them wrong.
You are spot on.. I wish I could get that set up for my 1978 Volare. The stock rocker arms and shafts are junk!! Push rods bore through the rocker arms.. Spent 16 years in a wrecking yard.. Seen it all the time..
Steeping out of the box is always good trying new things! If if works it’s awesome! I am a Chef if we don’t try new things we would still be eating food from long ago!
There are a lot of "company men" out there and some of the Mopar or no car crowd are the epitome of this. They are not upset you changed the rocker system, they are upset it is using non Morpar parts. They stand by the system as proof that Mopar was/is always better, and you threaten that thought process with innovation. Thank you for making these videos and for going out and innovating.
I've found over the years of me doing custom work that the more people hate, the closer you are to success. I really found this out when I started my UA-cam channel. Great job on this one!
I think the LS rocker conversion is brilliant, and I'm a die hard mopar guy. One thing most folks hatin are not considering, is the original intent for the build was a burn out car. With the stock shaft rockers, if you held the engine at 6krpm for 2-3minutes, all the oil would get pumped into the valve covers and spit out the bottom end. There are a couple of ways to prevent that, and this is a cool one. I dig it!
I love this type of thing. How boring would the world be if no one did anything different and tried new things. You inspired me to go out and buy an ls rocker stand and rockers to see how they look on magnum heads. May be a waste of time and money but only one way to find out..
Valiant effort, pun intended. The harmonics of your pedestal is likely what caused the issues. The Jesel pedestals are beefier AND they use a shaft. It makes me wonder if you can maintain your pedestals and install that Comp shaft to stiffen everything back up and stop the harmonics.
Advancement never happens unless you try. Most trolls cant do, so they hide behind a keyboard and pretend they know what there talking about. F them, move forward!
It's so much simpler to be a critic than it is to be......... pretty much anything else. I never understood the whole trolling thing. Maybe people find it enjoyable? There's so many positive things to enjoy and compliment out there, that's what I'm into.
I was so excited when i first heard of this engine build from vvg the advantage of running a readily available part that could be cheaper than the expensive aftermarket stock set up plus running a longer valve better springs. i say keep the ideas coming.
I've loved this build since I saw it in your shop. You sir approach issues with an open mind and as a machinist you find out what can be done not just what has been done. Like i said in your shop, I have another engine coming that is going to need some of your engineering as I try some different things. I intend to push boundaries within my pocketbook limits and with my wife not divorcing me. She's very forgiving, but I've pushed my luck a lot and intend to keep on pushing. Keep up the awesome work!
You said it yourself, you were out to do something different and show your skills and capabilities. You've done that no question 👏 you succeeded to adapt an individual shaft type rocker to an LA Chrysler head. The problem is you didn't need to. Sbc rockers are available in 1.7 and they bolt straight onto Chrysler magnum heads, no modification required. Magnum heads bolt straight onto an LA block, no modification required. All high quality off the shelf parts, no milling or clearancing. So people are telling you it's a waste of time because they have different goals.
You are correct the Magnum heads have a similar rocker set up as the L S but weren’t used due to their limited airflow - they could have been used if ported but even then, cost aside, they would not have met the targets of flow desired.
@@smokeysghost4759 Nah, Edelbrocks magnum head has the same port as their LA head, intake bolt pattern and rocker stands are the only difference. Oh and sbc rockers fit magnum heads not Ls.
I think this goes back to trying something different. Maybe I didn't need to, but if no one tried anything different, then how would the magnums end up with different rocker arms if the stock 318 system was so great? Improvement and innovation come with new ideas, and if you're always waiting for someone else to come up with the ideas, you might be disappointed!
I remember reading articles in hotrod magazine and carcraft where guys filled holes in heads and re drilled them to use on engines that they weren't ment for , and I believe Steve D , from MotorTrend don't remember how to spell his last name , but he has done some things like that. What you did was cool and it works .
Okay, the lightweight LS rockers cure the symptom. Valve float. Guess what fellers, the underlying issue is cam lobes that are too aggressive for high rpm
@@paragonengines1924download comp cams lobe catalog. You will learn there are different lobe designs for different applications. And no, you don't use a "smaller" cam. Thanks for playing though
I haven't read any of the comments on this video or the other one, I hope you are just putting content out and not actually concerned about what the trolls say, my opinion is, those trolls knocking your design are just most likely 20 year olds who have at one time stood next to someone who put a hot air intake on their Honda and now it makes them pro's. if no one tried anything we would still be rolling a square block with a stick.
To me the biggest drawback with playing with the LA based engines is no one stopped to develop an Aluminum race poly head for them. The flow on them would have to be far superior to any LA head even the famed W2 head. I've played with a lot of small block Mopars. Never had a problem getting them to go past 5500 RPM or even 7000 RPM using the shaft mount rocker setup. Over 7000 rpm they were 1.6 ratio rollers. I've also worked on switching a poly block to run LA J heads. It was a total off the wall experiment and the Poly motor won't fit into a pre-1966 A body. Not even sure if it would fit into a 1967 up one. The old poly block can be taken 120 over from stock without needing to sonic test. My thing against pedestal mounted rockers is the deflection. Even with shaft mounted rockers you can run into that issue. With the shaft mounted rockers though you can shim them. Over all the shaft mounted rockers also tend to be stronger and less likely to break. In my lifetime I've only seen one shaft broken. It was in a 318 that jumped time. It still ran with that broken shaft on the passenger side. I am far from against using other manufacturer style parts in an engine build. The poly block to LA head build was at 90 over and Chevy Pistons wouldn't work due to dome height. Custom made JE pistons went into it.
I never saw that for the polyblock. I know they made a kit though to mount 426 Hemi heads on the RB block. The only difference between the Polyblock and LA heads was water port locations. The machine shop threaded the stock ports and plugged them with pipe plugs and then milled them flat to the head. Then just redrilled the water ports to line up with the polyblock. I imagine it would just be the reverse of it to put a polyhead onto an LA block. Then you have to run the respective Intake and exhaust manifolds/headers, cam and rocker setup for the head you are using. Cylinder bore spacing and head bolt pattern is the same. The big difference between Hemi heads and non-hemi heads I believe is the number of head bolts per cylinder. Non-hemis are four head bolts per cylinder and hemis are 5. @@peteloomis8456
J, X and I believe its the 508 casting if I remember right with the closed chamber heart shaped combustion chamber are all good factory heads for a high performance application. Just not up to what a good race purpose built head is. Still with the Poly to LA head we built it ran against and either came close to or beat a lot of cars and engines people wouldn't have thought it would. They weren't stock either. The engine had a real nice flat torque curve and pulled the whole 1/4. It wasn't just an engine build. It was the whole drive train matched to run. 3000 stall converter, manual reverse valve body, and 4:30 gears. Add to that a well designed exhaust. Then tire dimension even factors into it. @@paragonengines1924
it's a great idea. Period Very innovative. If it keeps a stock 318 pushrod from typically going through its rocker arm, it's well worth it. LS arms are obviously way better than the ones designed for a 318 over at half century ago. Serviceability, reliability and performance have been met. paragon engines already said that they will support this engine! Who knows! It may very likely become a replacement production part for the 318. Great ingenuity on your part and lots of guts to put something out there that is different and works well. Long live the LS 318! Peter de Pilgrim :-)
Considering the factory 318 rockers are a sloppy setup its easy to see having a stable rocker arm like the LS is a improvement. The stock is really only in the low 1.4 range. But now this is just talking for a mild HYD lifter engines. The extra ratio with a mild cam can and would be beneficial. But on the other hand with a more agressive cam say .570 lift with even mildly ported heads that may still stall under. 600 then go turbulent that extra ratio may and aren't always a benefit. The ls does have much better heads so can use all the extra lift. It takes a properly fully worked stock head or basic non offset rocker worked aftermarket LA head to be stable to over .650 lift. Let's talk about what would actually be the more cost effective and a improvement for a stock LA engine. Having a stable rocker is better but having stable and adjustability is another big gain. I dont think people are noticing the fact that the LS rocker have "no adjustment" which can be another huge benefit that is needed over a stock 318 rocker. Even a stock SBC you can set preload on each lifter. Just being able to adjust the rockers to have perfect lifter preload set on a hyd lifter deal can be worth 20hp. The most cost effective is just using a set of 100$ 273 rockers for a big gain over stock 318/360. For the amature to just bolt this LS setup on without getting the proper length pushrods and checking everything throughly for the specific application may be a bit more involved vs effectiveness that can be comfortably handled. It would be cool to see a back to back test to 6500rpm to see the gains between the 3 setups and add a aftermarket one shaft 1.6 adjustable rocker as well.. Also need to point out the misconception that factory rockers can't really handle over 4800rpm is false. The factory can handle 6200rpm no problem. It's when having worn rocker arms with over around 340lbs spring pressures that can pop the them through. I did on a 6800rpm engine. And a client's Big block that regularly spun 6000rpm. I'm all for ingenuity and trying different things since that's what hot rodding is about! But we also need to be fair and point out the specific draws backs as well as the applications they won't work for (any mechanical lifter application) for those that may not fully understand engines.
Gm racing has spin trons with lasers that measure deflection on the rockers. The factory LS rockers had the least amount of deflection over all other aftermarket ones and were the lightest over the fulcrom by far.
The Mopar community has a hard core Mopar think happening. I wonder how well LS rockers would work on Magnum heads that are pedestal mounted? There are a ton of LS engines out there so 1.7:1 ratio should be an inexpensive lift upgrade.
So funny how there is always someone that can find something wrong with anything you do. I thought it was cool just because you were able to do it whether that was any advantage or not. I have a '68 B Body with a 383 in it and I run a 400 intake with a Quadrajet on it because I had one and it runs just fine. If I told MOPAR people I might get shot. I'm planning ot remove the MOPAR Electronic Ignition and put on a HEI module also. But you know what? My car always starts and it starts easily.
Guessing this video was made bc of the utg video, nothing he does works properly, his 318 runs 10's,... in the 1/8th,.... nothings ever an improvement over what was 60 years ago,... don't worry about it, do you/be you
That was one reason, and also the endless comments. I have seen his builds at the drag strip in person (when he still built stuff) and they were less than impressive.
Brother, the social media couch potatos know it all. This is badd azz!!! They don't think, just because they wouldn't do it. Does it make it wrong?. I would. Bad azz!!!
Yes shaft rockers are ultimately better, but they can also be a major PITA when you start having to move shafts around to try and correct valve tip to rocker misalignment. I personally liked the idea and engineering you put into it and it does give another option to the factory style system.
You can buy shim kits to align the rocker tips with the valve stem tips which is always recommended when going roller rockers on the bar system by raising them if needed plus they make shims that go between the rocker arms to align the rocker arms so they stay where they are supposed to. Rocker alignment is crucial because if not done correctly you will get what's called rocker arm tip scrubbing where the tip is pushing up or down on the valve stem tips instead of straight down on it which causes more friction and also will eventually wear out the valve guides if not corrected . Most times when using the roller rockers on the bar system you also will have to check for the correct push rod lengths and order custom push rods so your getting full lift of the cam . Had to do this on a 451 big block stroker engine I built a few years ago with a friend of mine who didn't want to go with a more modern grind flat tappet hydraulic cam and I told him then go full roller rockers but use a 1.6 ratio rather than the standard 1.5 to try and get a little more lift which he did but just by going to the 1.6 ratio the lift is only about 30 thousands more which the heads were done up for this so the old Direct connection Mopar 509 purple shaft that he had the first design which was designed more for the stick cars that took the lift to 539 lift on both intake and exhaust with 290 duration at .050 which has a fast ramp speed . Ratio doesn't effect duration or LSA but does change the lift of the valve and as long as the heads are done up to flow better the lift helps with making more power . The Chrysler engines from those years small and big block that use the bar system where the power is made is from using good aftermarket roller rockers where each rocker arm is lets say exactly at 1.5 or1.6 ratio so as long as the cam lobes aren't worn out each valve will open the same lift unless it's a split pattern cam where as with the stock rockers those ratios can be all over the place so you have some that are lets say 1.5 but others are 1.4 1.6 all over the place which causes a power loss over 16 valves. The bar system also has less friction than the old ball and stud system that was used mainly on the old SBC and BBC because even though the HP version balls had grooves cut into them to help lubricate the balls better so they wouldn't gall up from the heat and spring pressures at high RPMs this system causes a lot more heat and friction and that why on these engines when converting to a full roller rocker they make more power because it gets rid of a lot of heat and friction besides all 16 rocker arms being exactly at 1.5 or 1.6 ratio and on a Mopar bar system you don't see as much of a HP increase because of less heat and friction because the pressure is spread out more than in just 1 small area like the Chevrolet ball and stud system uses . I have a buddy that does truck pulling in the super modified class and he runs a all aluminum BBC and he uses those jesel bar rocker mounted shafts on his 50,000 race engine and has everything locked down so it can turn 7,500-8,000 RPMs and he's had really good luck with using them and would never been able to make the power he does using even the HP version of the old ball and stud system that those engines used for many years . I do know that the small block Chrysler engine the push rod angles aren't the best and that always used to cause issues with valve train instability and the lack of high rpm especially when using a factory stock iron head but Chrysler did do some improvements on the 340 race heads but often times on those the larger push rods needed because of the high spring pressures some guys had to actually clearance the push rod holes so they wouldn't touch and that often times caused the hole to go right I to the intake ports and would have to be epoxied closed then blended in which isn't ideal so from what I see here using the LS roller rockers this is not only adding more lift but it also helps alleviate this push rod angle that these engines are known to have stock from the factory so it can RPM better plus cost wise it's much cheaper. There is a guy on UA-cam here that took 2 5.3 LS heads and cut them off and welded them together to make basically a all aluminum LS head to bolt on and work for a Ford 300 6 cylinder engine with fuel Injection and a turbo on it that I watched probably a year or more ago but haven't looked lately to see if he's got it up and running or not but I thought that's pretty cool seeing someone who is trying this to see what kind of power can be made using this head he built because often times with building a HP 6 cylinder engine the power limit is often the cylinder head just doesn't flow very good . I've always wanted to build a HP 6 cylinder engine but the prices for speed parts are expensive and for the money your better off building a V-8 for less money and making more power after looking on Clifford 6=8 web site and seeing how expensive 6 cylinder engines are to build .
@@peteloomis8456 all I have to say is 🤯. I probably couldn’t teach you 1/100 of what you could teach me but here’s a fun fact you might not know. A 6.2 hemi head as cast will outflow a bbc head with a 2.25”intake valve on a 4.310 bore. I do have a sweet spot for my 4.0 jeeps though 🤷♂️ I’m a mopar nut even if 6 in a row might not really be “good to go”. Would love to hurricane swap a wj Jeep.
What you did with this engine is exactly what hot rodders have been doing for 70+ years. This engine is unique and I hope it performs well and is durable.
The ls rocker idea and your ingenuity is awesome! I dont have much repsect for uncle tony these days, enjoyed him when he started but hes just a stubborn boomer that figured out how to make a living on youtube preaching to other stubborn old boomers
I loved your engineering for the rockers. Having to swap an older Mopar shaft rocker on the side of the road took 3 times longer than any Ford or Chevy. Also finding those parts readily available in some little town parts store is slim to none. I for one would swap in your design every time.
@@paragonengines1924 Sorry, I mean springs for the valves. Should they be strong enough for certain RPM range? I thought I've heard that they can float and not perform the way they should.
I wonder if the base could be machined to improve the push rod angle created by the high lift so you don't have to drill out the push rod hole which can be daunting in some 318 heads.
I think the only way to fix that issue would be to straighten out the lifter angle. I wish there was enough material in the block to move them to a 45*, that would be a big help!
Does anyone make shaft roller rockers for the SBChrysler Magnum heads? That would be something I'd like to have. Simply for the longevity and friction reduction. Perhaps I'm wrong and the factory Magnum setup is just fine but, I don't like those "saddle straps" that keep the rockers aligned with the valve tip. I've seen too many of those break.
I'm surprised my factory rockers are still good in my 300,000 mile stump pulling rev limit bouncing 37" tire mud slinger. I'm going to have to do something special for the old girl, maybe some crome valve covers and a summit sticker.
I'm a Buick guy. The Edelbrock heads get hate for using Chevy rockers instead of the shaft mount rockers. I like it. Yes with a huge can you will need a stud girdle but it is adjustable and affordable. P.S. the Edelbrock heads don't flow well either but different topic😂
Not sure where youre getting info on LA's punching rocker arms. My original 318 rockers (not the later heavier ones) would, and did run routinely to 5800rpm shifts. Never punched one. In fact, the only ones I've ever seen punched were involved in a timing gear failure with one of those crappy nylon-toothed gears. I still think your LS adaptation is a great innovation.
@@paragonengines1924 I gotcha, and agree. I mean, just look at the cams of today. The lift is considerably more than the past. The rockers have to be stronger and more precise than they were then. So, anyway, anything you can do to make things better, I'm all for it. This brand loyalty biz is for the birds. If there was some quick and easy swap for some BB Chevy head for my 440, you can bet I'd do it. Low buck and instantly pick up the kind of flow increase they offer over the typical BB Mopar wedge head? In a hot second!
Mopar LA engines with stock shaft mount rockers will handle any rpm that the heads will support the flow for.... Later LA heads have individual rockers and need guide slots for stability so are not as stable as shaft mount but they can flow better than the early heads, however to do all the work required for your system will only complicate the system with expensive machine work with very little return on investment....So, why don't you just put a Chevy engine in your Mopar.....
My question is y not just make factory style 1.7 rockers for the 318 and if this set up works what's the availability? U can't even get parts that are mass produced like from comp and is the advantage out way the cost? LS's don't impress me I see sbc's beating them every day
It seems like the focus of the video was comparing the LS conversions against each other and not against the factory or aftermarket factory Dodge LA style replacements. - a design Dodge themselves changed to individual rockers in the early 90's with the Magnum series heads. Both generations of Mopar heads have upgraded aftermarket direct replacement style rockers that work well up to the flow limits of the heads, at which point the aftermarket heads have their own valvetrain anyways. Much like the Viper rod conversion, it seems like an over complicated way to fix something that wasn't really broken or something that had already been fixed using an easier method before. I'm not saying that there is no merit to these changes - just that both the rockers and the Viper rods are better suited to a shop using up existing inventory and can control their labor costs for the machine work for these conversions than for someone paying full price for new parts and labor.
All valid points. It was easier for us than it would be for someone in their garage, with no equipment or parts. But, on the same hand, being that we are fortunate enough to have the resources, why not make something that is outside of the box and spark people's interest in thinking further than "what's already been done."
I understand what you did and why you did it for serviceability, but what if one of the custom machines pedestals gets damaged? Then it wouldn't be easily available to replace. Trying new and different things is what started hot rodding, so keep it up. I do think there are some suitable off the shelf shaft mounted systems with roller tips out there that would have worked very well in the application, but may have been 1.6 to 1 ratio only, but changing cam profile to match the full system could have given similar performance results.
Same haters whined when someone came out with a way to mount sbc rockers on a small block Buick. The haters that criticized your setup are either mad because they spent the big bucks on the T&D rockers or they're just ignorant purists. You guys did a great job with this conversion don't let the nay sayers get you down, odds are seeing how they can't beat you they'll become customers.😁👍
thanks for woiking outside the box
Always!
Thanks for video!
You're welcome!
People who cant think outside the box are skeptics until it works, I used to have a machinist that did my racing engines that loved pushing the envelope and doing thinks that people said wouldn't work, he enjoyed proving them wrong.
Tell me I can't do something and I'll find a way!
Stay you. Period. Don't give haters any of your time.
You have a great product!!
Thank you, I appreciate that!
Innovation The Basic Foundation of Hot Rodding.....
One of the main principles...
You are spot on.. I wish I could get that set up for my 1978 Volare. The stock rocker arms and shafts are junk!! Push rods bore through the rocker arms.. Spent 16 years in a wrecking yard.. Seen it all the time..
Yep!
This is the core of hotrodding innovation that is honestly the coolest part of hot ridding and building cars. Great job very smart
Couldn't agree more!
its still really cool IMO
In my opinion too!
Steeping out of the box is always good trying new things! If if works it’s awesome! I am a Chef if we don’t try new things we would still be eating food from long ago!
So true!
Look , stuff the haters , you do what you do . Great job
I appreciate that!
You do you! I was super impressed you figured this system out something Old school guys Did with everything.
Just trying to bring back the old idea of thinking outside the box!
They took what they had and figured out a way to make it better. Smart men.
i thought what you guys did was sick! nice job
Thank you!
I think it is a great thing all around. Cheaper readily available parts that will work better and make more powah. Muy bueno. Good day all God bless
Thank you for the support!
Im a die hard MOPAR MAN, and I think this is AWESOME, great ingenuity.
I appreciate seeing the thought behind it!
Fine work, keep up the innovation.
Thank you!
Usually the one who say negative things lack the ability to try different things, either physically or mentally
Yeah 95% missed the point of the whole thing.
You're absolutely right.
Wise words!
Well said!
apparently you haven't heard of Uncle Tony's Garage. He criticized, and he tries a lot of things.
Very cool system 😎
Thank you!
There are a lot of "company men" out there and some of the Mopar or no car crowd are the epitome of this. They are not upset you changed the rocker system, they are upset it is using non Morpar parts. They stand by the system as proof that Mopar was/is always better, and you threaten that thought process with innovation. Thank you for making these videos and for going out and innovating.
You're welcome! I'm glad your enjoying them!
I love when someone reaches out side of the box to do something different and I love it even more when it works
I like the part where it worked!
Keep knocking it out of the park! Internet trolls=adults living with their mom full of ENVY.
Well said!
You are "the man in the arena" mate. Well done👍
Thanks 👍
Very impressive results and thinking outside the box!
Thank you! Cheers!
I was Impressed with what you did, don’t stop trying new things, you did a hell of a job.
I appreciate that kind sir!
Agreed - nice innovation!
The winner of that car will enjoy it for years! Enjoyed your shared knowledge too, thank you
Awesome idea!!!
Thank you!
keep up the good work ! research and development is fun !!
Will do! Thank you!
Good job regardless of the outcome it's a great chance to learn, I've had more mechanical failures than successes and the experience is priceless.
You are so right!
YOU ARE ABSOLUTE WIZARDS! ROCK ON!
Thank you!
I thought it was a great idea. For all the reasons you stated.
Well done.
Glad you think so!
Keep on keepin on man!
That's the plan!
This whole series has been great! I’m very impressed!
Thank you!
I've found over the years of me doing custom work that the more people hate, the closer you are to success. I really found this out when I started my UA-cam channel.
Great job on this one!
I can agree with that!
You did an awesome job, keep breaking the mold and doing cool stuff!
Thank you, I'll keep trying!
I think the LS rocker conversion is brilliant, and I'm a die hard mopar guy. One thing most folks hatin are not considering, is the original intent for the build was a burn out car. With the stock shaft rockers, if you held the engine at 6krpm for 2-3minutes, all the oil would get pumped into the valve covers and spit out the bottom end. There are a couple of ways to prevent that, and this is a cool one. I dig it!
You're right! One of the may concerns addressed.
Very nice nothing wrong with improvement on something to make classic engines run better when old parts are getting harder to find
Yes indeed!
please keep designing new stuff .I'm always ready to learn and listen to new ideas.Great job and great channel!
More to come! Thanks!
So I'm getting ready to build a 318 LA for my work truck. I'd love to try those out. Roller rockers are always a great upgrade.
trying to get demand together to start mass production.
I love this type of thing. How boring would the world be if no one did anything different and tried new things. You inspired me to go out and buy an ls rocker stand and rockers to see how they look on magnum heads. May be a waste of time and money but only one way to find out..
Very true! always a great idea to get out there and try something new!
I am also interested in how this would work on a magnum engine
Hope I'm the new owner of that system
Fingers crossed!
Haters gonna hate! I watched the build, I thought it was cool, and an improvement!
Awesome! Thank you!
Man if you could make them work on big block mopar id be interested.
It has peaked my intrest!
Well said. This is what car building is all about! Keep on truckin’😃
Will do!
Well done, great explanation. Know I really want to win this car...lol
You and me both!
Oh come on! Geo metros were awesome! Its more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Also 35+ mpg! Granted they were kinda ugly
But it does reach a point where the slow car is too slow...
Well said....
Thank you!
Valiant effort, pun intended.
The harmonics of your pedestal is likely what caused the issues. The Jesel pedestals are beefier AND they use a shaft. It makes me wonder if you can maintain your pedestals and install that Comp shaft to stiffen everything back up and stop the harmonics.
I don't have any harmonic issues that I know about. The valve spacing isn't the same, so I would have to make a custom shaft.
@@paragonengines1924 would it be easier to make a custom shaft or to get offset rocker arms?
I think it would compound over the length of the head, so a custom shaft would be easier.
Advancement never happens unless you try. Most trolls cant do, so they hide behind a keyboard and pretend they know what there talking about. F them, move forward!
Yep, just try. When it doesn't work, try something different. Improve until you achieve your goals!
Excellent use of your talents. Do a big block version!
Might be in the future!
It's so much simpler to be a critic than it is to be......... pretty much anything else.
I never understood the whole trolling thing. Maybe people find it enjoyable?
There's so many positive things to enjoy and compliment out there, that's what I'm into.
Let's just get out there and make cool stuff! That's what I'm about!
Now get a 4in stroke crank and a set of 5.7 Hemi rods and then pair that with a set of 5.7L LS1 pistons to make a 388in stroker.
A little too much stroke to bore in my opinion!
I was so excited when i first heard of this engine build from vvg the advantage of running a readily available part that could be cheaper than the expensive aftermarket stock set up plus running a longer valve better springs. i say keep the ideas coming.
That is the plan!
I've loved this build since I saw it in your shop. You sir approach issues with an open mind and as a machinist you find out what can be done not just what has been done. Like i said in your shop, I have another engine coming that is going to need some of your engineering as I try some different things. I intend to push boundaries within my pocketbook limits and with my wife not divorcing me. She's very forgiving, but I've pushed my luck a lot and intend to keep on pushing. Keep up the awesome work!
I too, like to push boundaries, but not with the Mrs. lol
Would love to see this solution on the retail market!!!
It is a possibility!
@@paragonengines1924 outstanding!!!!
You said it yourself, you were out to do something different and show your skills and capabilities.
You've done that no question 👏 you succeeded to adapt an individual shaft type rocker to an LA Chrysler head.
The problem is you didn't need to.
Sbc rockers are available in 1.7 and they bolt straight onto Chrysler magnum heads, no modification required.
Magnum heads bolt straight onto an LA block, no modification required.
All high quality off the shelf parts, no milling or clearancing.
So people are telling you it's a waste of time because they have different goals.
You are correct the Magnum heads have a similar rocker set up as the L S but weren’t used due to their limited airflow - they could have been used if ported but even then, cost aside, they would not have met the targets of flow desired.
@@smokeysghost4759 Nah, Edelbrocks magnum head has the same port as their LA head, intake bolt pattern and rocker stands are the only difference.
Oh and sbc rockers fit magnum heads not Ls.
Actually Ls rockers may fit magnum heads 🤷🏻♂️ not sure.
Either way different goals.
I think this goes back to trying something different. Maybe I didn't need to, but if no one tried anything different, then how would the magnums end up with different rocker arms if the stock 318 system was so great? Improvement and innovation come with new ideas, and if you're always waiting for someone else to come up with the ideas, you might be disappointed!
@@paragonengines1924 I'm not criticising man don't get me wrong.
I'm just coming from a different perspective 😏
I love when someone comes up with an adapter, rather than make a brand new set of expensive bolt on parts. LS1 rockers work great.
Couldn't agree more!
I remember reading articles in hotrod magazine and carcraft where guys filled holes in heads and re drilled them to use on engines that they weren't ment for , and I believe Steve D , from MotorTrend don't remember how to spell his last name , but he has done some things like that. What you did was cool and it works .
Thank you!
Okay, the lightweight LS rockers cure the symptom. Valve float. Guess what fellers, the underlying issue is cam lobes that are too aggressive for high rpm
So we are supposed to run a smaller cam for higher RPM?
@@paragonengines1924download comp cams lobe catalog. You will learn there are different lobe designs for different applications. And no, you don't use a "smaller" cam. Thanks for playing though
Like to see you make Ls rockers work on a Jeep 4.0l
With enough demand, it could be possible!
I haven't read any of the comments on this video or the other one, I hope you are just putting content out and not actually concerned about what the trolls say, my opinion is, those trolls knocking your design are just most likely 20 year olds who have at one time stood next to someone who put a hot air intake on their Honda and now it makes them pro's. if no one tried anything we would still be rolling a square block with a stick.
Just wanted to educate some people so they don't believe wrong information out there.
To me the biggest drawback with playing with the LA based engines is no one stopped to develop an Aluminum race poly head for them. The flow on them would have to be far superior to any LA head even the famed W2 head.
I've played with a lot of small block Mopars. Never had a problem getting them to go past 5500 RPM or even 7000 RPM using the shaft mount rocker setup. Over 7000 rpm they were 1.6 ratio rollers.
I've also worked on switching a poly block to run LA J heads. It was a total off the wall experiment and the Poly motor won't fit into a pre-1966 A body. Not even sure if it would fit into a 1967 up one.
The old poly block can be taken 120 over from stock without needing to sonic test.
My thing against pedestal mounted rockers is the deflection. Even with shaft mounted rockers you can run into that issue. With the shaft mounted rockers though you can shim them. Over all the shaft mounted rockers also tend to be stronger and less likely to break. In my lifetime I've only seen one shaft broken. It was in a 318 that jumped time. It still ran with that broken shaft on the passenger side.
I am far from against using other manufacturer style parts in an engine build. The poly block to LA head build was at 90 over and Chevy Pistons wouldn't work due to dome height. Custom made JE pistons went into it.
There used to be a kit you could buy to mount the older Chrysler Hemi heads on those poly blocks I remember seeing many years ago.
I never saw that for the polyblock. I know they made a kit though to mount 426 Hemi heads on the RB block. The only difference between the Polyblock and LA heads was water port locations. The machine shop threaded the stock ports and plugged them with pipe plugs and then milled them flat to the head. Then just redrilled the water ports to line up with the polyblock. I imagine it would just be the reverse of it to put a polyhead onto an LA block. Then you have to run the respective Intake and exhaust manifolds/headers, cam and rocker setup for the head you are using. Cylinder bore spacing and head bolt pattern is the same. The big difference between Hemi heads and non-hemi heads I believe is the number of head bolts per cylinder. Non-hemis are four head bolts per cylinder and hemis are 5. @@peteloomis8456
The heads we got were decent, but a race head would have been nice!
J, X and I believe its the 508 casting if I remember right with the closed chamber heart shaped combustion chamber are all good factory heads for a high performance application. Just not up to what a good race purpose built head is. Still with the Poly to LA head we built it ran against and either came close to or beat a lot of cars and engines people wouldn't have thought it would. They weren't stock either. The engine had a real nice flat torque curve and pulled the whole 1/4. It wasn't just an engine build. It was the whole drive train matched to run. 3000 stall converter, manual reverse valve body, and 4:30 gears. Add to that a well designed exhaust. Then tire dimension even factors into it. @@paragonengines1924
Would work on a magnum?
I have heard it might but haven't looked into it.
it's a great idea. Period
Very innovative.
If it keeps a stock 318 pushrod from typically going through its rocker arm, it's well worth it.
LS arms are obviously way better than the ones designed for a 318 over at half century ago. Serviceability, reliability and performance have been met.
paragon engines already said that they will support this engine!
Who knows! It may very likely become a replacement production part for the 318.
Great ingenuity on your part and lots of guts to put something out there that is different and works well. Long live the LS 318!
Peter de Pilgrim :-)
Thank you! I appreciate the support!
U did good u just need the full shaft for stability above 5k ram keep up with the mods
Will do!
Considering the factory 318 rockers are a sloppy setup its easy to see having a stable rocker arm like the LS is a improvement. The stock is really only in the low 1.4 range. But now this is just talking for a mild HYD lifter engines. The extra ratio with a mild cam can and would be beneficial. But on the other hand with a more agressive cam say .570 lift with even mildly ported heads that may still stall under. 600 then go turbulent that extra ratio may and aren't always a benefit. The ls does have much better heads so can use all the extra lift. It takes a properly fully worked stock head or basic non offset rocker worked aftermarket LA head to be stable to over .650 lift. Let's talk about what would actually be the more cost effective and a improvement for a stock LA engine. Having a stable rocker is better but having stable and adjustability is another big gain. I dont think people are noticing the fact that the LS rocker have "no adjustment" which can be another huge benefit that is needed over a stock 318 rocker. Even a stock SBC you can set preload on each lifter. Just being able to adjust the rockers to have perfect lifter preload set on a hyd lifter deal can be worth 20hp. The most cost effective is just using a set of 100$ 273 rockers for a big gain over stock 318/360. For the amature to just bolt this LS setup on without getting the proper length pushrods and checking everything throughly for the specific application may be a bit more involved vs effectiveness that can be comfortably handled. It would be cool to see a back to back test to 6500rpm to see the gains between the 3 setups and add a aftermarket one shaft 1.6 adjustable rocker as well.. Also need to point out the misconception that factory rockers can't really handle over 4800rpm is false. The factory can handle 6200rpm no problem. It's when having worn rocker arms with over around 340lbs spring pressures that can pop the them through. I did on a 6800rpm engine. And a client's Big block that regularly spun 6000rpm. I'm all for ingenuity and trying different things since that's what hot rodding is about! But we also need to be fair and point out the specific draws backs as well as the applications they won't work for (any mechanical lifter application) for those that may not fully understand engines.
To fully address everything would end up with a few hour long video. There is more to it than what I talked about, and you as well have valid points.
Gm racing has spin trons with lasers that measure deflection on the rockers. The factory LS rockers had the least amount of deflection over all other aftermarket ones and were the lightest over the fulcrom by far.
People don't realize the amount of time and money that goes into stuff at that level.
The Mopar community has a hard core Mopar think happening. I wonder how well LS rockers would work on Magnum heads that are pedestal mounted? There are a ton of LS engines out there so 1.7:1 ratio should be an inexpensive lift upgrade.
I have heard it might work, maybe need to find a magnum motor and see if it would work!
That would be more sensible.
You can run a Chevy rocker on Edelbrock magnum heads.
So funny how there is always someone that can find something wrong with anything you do. I thought it was cool just because you were able to do it whether that was any advantage or not. I have a '68 B Body with a 383 in it and I run a 400 intake with a Quadrajet on it because I had one and it runs just fine. If I told MOPAR people I might get shot. I'm planning ot remove the MOPAR Electronic Ignition and put on a HEI module also. But you know what? My car always starts and it starts easily.
All I want is a car that runs right, no matter the parts on it. Sounds like you nailed it!
Guessing this video was made bc of the utg video, nothing he does works properly, his 318 runs 10's,... in the 1/8th,.... nothings ever an improvement over what was 60 years ago,... don't worry about it, do you/be you
That was one reason, and also the endless comments. I have seen his builds at the drag strip in person (when he still built stuff) and they were less than impressive.
Will it be commercially available?
Possibly, trying to gather up enough demand!
Brother, the social media couch potatos know it all. This is badd azz!!! They don't think, just because they wouldn't do it. Does it make it wrong?. I would. Bad azz!!!
Thank you!
Yes shaft rockers are ultimately better, but they can also be a major PITA when you start having to move shafts around to try and correct valve tip to rocker misalignment. I personally liked the idea and engineering you put into it and it does give another option to the factory style system.
That can be a big problem. I just followed GM recipe for the LS and it actually worked!
This type of system can open up so many options like self aligning rockers. I’ve seen sbf with bbc self aligning roller rockers.
You can buy shim kits to align the rocker tips with the valve stem tips which is always recommended when going roller rockers on the bar system by raising them if needed plus they make shims that go between the rocker arms to align the rocker arms so they stay where they are supposed to. Rocker alignment is crucial because if not done correctly you will get what's called rocker arm tip scrubbing where the tip is pushing up or down on the valve stem tips instead of straight down on it which causes more friction and also will eventually wear out the valve guides if not corrected . Most times when using the roller rockers on the bar system you also will have to check for the correct push rod lengths and order custom push rods so your getting full lift of the cam . Had to do this on a 451 big block stroker engine I built a few years ago with a friend of mine who didn't want to go with a more modern grind flat tappet hydraulic cam and I told him then go full roller rockers but use a 1.6 ratio rather than the standard 1.5 to try and get a little more lift which he did but just by going to the 1.6 ratio the lift is only about 30 thousands more which the heads were done up for this so the old Direct connection Mopar 509 purple shaft that he had the first design which was designed more for the stick cars that took the lift to 539 lift on both intake and exhaust with 290 duration at .050 which has a fast ramp speed . Ratio doesn't effect duration or LSA but does change the lift of the valve and as long as the heads are done up to flow better the lift helps with making more power . The Chrysler engines from those years small and big block that use the bar system where the power is made is from using good aftermarket roller rockers where each rocker arm is lets say exactly at 1.5 or1.6 ratio so as long as the cam lobes aren't worn out each valve will open the same lift unless it's a split pattern cam where as with the stock rockers those ratios can be all over the place so you have some that are lets say 1.5 but others are 1.4 1.6 all over the place which causes a power loss over 16 valves. The bar system also has less friction than the old ball and stud system that was used mainly on the old SBC and BBC because even though the HP version balls had grooves cut into them to help lubricate the balls better so they wouldn't gall up from the heat and spring pressures at high RPMs this system causes a lot more heat and friction and that why on these engines when converting to a full roller rocker they make more power because it gets rid of a lot of heat and friction besides all 16 rocker arms being exactly at 1.5 or 1.6 ratio and on a Mopar bar system you don't see as much of a HP increase because of less heat and friction because the pressure is spread out more than in just 1 small area like the Chevrolet ball and stud system uses . I have a buddy that does truck pulling in the super modified class and he runs a all aluminum BBC and he uses those jesel bar rocker mounted shafts on his 50,000 race engine and has everything locked down so it can turn 7,500-8,000 RPMs and he's had really good luck with using them and would never been able to make the power he does using even the HP version of the old ball and stud system that those engines used for many years . I do know that the small block Chrysler engine the push rod angles aren't the best and that always used to cause issues with valve train instability and the lack of high rpm especially when using a factory stock iron head but Chrysler did do some improvements on the 340 race heads but often times on those the larger push rods needed because of the high spring pressures some guys had to actually clearance the push rod holes so they wouldn't touch and that often times caused the hole to go right I to the intake ports and would have to be epoxied closed then blended in which isn't ideal so from what I see here using the LS roller rockers this is not only adding more lift but it also helps alleviate this push rod angle that these engines are known to have stock from the factory so it can RPM better plus cost wise it's much cheaper. There is a guy on UA-cam here that took 2 5.3 LS heads and cut them off and welded them together to make basically a all aluminum LS head to bolt on and work for a Ford 300 6 cylinder engine with fuel Injection and a turbo on it that I watched probably a year or more ago but haven't looked lately to see if he's got it up and running or not but I thought that's pretty cool seeing someone who is trying this to see what kind of power can be made using this head he built because often times with building a HP 6 cylinder engine the power limit is often the cylinder head just doesn't flow very good . I've always wanted to build a HP 6 cylinder engine but the prices for speed parts are expensive and for the money your better off building a V-8 for less money and making more power after looking on Clifford 6=8 web site and seeing how expensive 6 cylinder engines are to build .
@@peteloomis8456 all I have to say is 🤯. I probably couldn’t teach you 1/100 of what you could teach me but here’s a fun fact you might not know. A 6.2 hemi head as cast will outflow a bbc head with a 2.25”intake valve on a 4.310 bore.
I do have a sweet spot for my 4.0 jeeps though 🤷♂️
I’m a mopar nut even if 6 in a row might not really be “good to go”.
Would love to hurricane swap a wj Jeep.
What you did with this engine is exactly what hot rodders have been doing for 70+ years. This engine is unique and I hope it performs well and is durable.
Same here, I hope it runs for many years!
Stock style rockers work well but not good above .510 lift, hughes makes nice rockers but expensive!
Great point!
The ls rocker idea and your ingenuity is awesome! I dont have much repsect for uncle tony these days, enjoyed him when he started but hes just a stubborn boomer that figured out how to make a living on youtube preaching to other stubborn old boomers
Well said!
Your going to have haters. That's just part of it. You do you and don't worry about the rest.
That's what I'll keep doing!
Screw the haters. As far as I'm concerned, you made a huge improvement in that 318 by doing that.
I would like to think the same thing!
I loved your engineering for the rockers. Having to swap an older Mopar shaft rocker on the side of the road took 3 times longer than any Ford or Chevy. Also finding those parts readily available in some little town parts store is slim to none. I for one would swap in your design every time.
Having lived it, you already know the advantages!
Personally, I would have never made this video. Rule number one, never give trolls the time of day (don't feed them).
Well if they watch the video and comment, I still win.
😊 now let's talk rocker and p springs. How strong do they need to be? Thanks for sharing this information
What's a p spring?
@@paragonengines1924
Sorry, I mean springs for the valves.
Should they be strong enough for certain RPM range? I thought I've heard that they can float and not perform the way they should.
Funny video.
I'm glad you could appreciate it!
I wonder if the base could be machined to improve the push rod angle created by the high lift so you don't have to drill out the push rod hole which can be daunting in some 318 heads.
I think the only way to fix that issue would be to straighten out the lifter angle. I wish there was enough material in the block to move them to a 45*, that would be a big help!
Does anyone make shaft roller rockers for the SBChrysler Magnum heads? That would be something I'd like to have. Simply for the longevity and friction reduction.
Perhaps I'm wrong and the factory Magnum setup is just fine but, I don't like those "saddle straps" that keep the rockers aligned with the valve tip. I've seen too many of those break.
Yes, Harland sharp does, but they are pretty big a clumsy.
I'm surprised my factory rockers are still good in my 300,000 mile stump pulling rev limit bouncing 37" tire mud slinger. I'm going to have to do something special for the old girl, maybe some crome valve covers and a summit sticker.
Sounds good!
I'm a Buick guy. The Edelbrock heads get hate for using Chevy rockers instead of the shaft mount rockers. I like it. Yes with a huge can you will need a stud girdle but it is adjustable and affordable. P.S. the Edelbrock heads don't flow well either but different topic😂
Why not use common parts to make a great running motor?
You did a fantastic job! Roller rockers, higher lift ratio, better springs for higher rpm... Haters gonna hate, but they NEVER learn.
Thank you! I just wish they would for once!
Not sure where youre getting info on LA's punching rocker arms. My original 318 rockers (not the later heavier ones) would, and did run routinely to 5800rpm shifts. Never punched one. In fact, the only ones I've ever seen punched were involved in a timing gear failure with one of those crappy nylon-toothed gears. I still think your LS adaptation is a great innovation.
Its not an uncommon problem. I'm not saying it happens to all of them, but it does happen. It never happens on an LS, hence one reason to adapt them.
@@paragonengines1924 I gotcha, and agree. I mean, just look at the cams of today. The lift is considerably more than the past. The rockers have to be stronger and more precise than they were then. So, anyway, anything you can do to make things better, I'm all for it. This brand loyalty biz is for the birds. If there was some quick and easy swap for some BB Chevy head for my 440, you can bet I'd do it. Low buck and instantly pick up the kind of flow increase they offer over the typical BB Mopar wedge head? In a hot second!
1960s and 1970s Cadillac have a shaft system and that's the weakest link if you try to hype it up or rev it.. its great for stock longevity
Well they weren't really made to run high RPM.
You always have haters ! Why even waste your time addressing them ? I think it was cool in the spirit of Hot Rodding .
I know they will be there, but I would like to educate the people that may not fully understand!
Mopar LA engines with stock shaft mount rockers will handle any rpm that the heads will support the flow for....
Later LA heads have individual rockers and need guide slots for stability so are not as stable as shaft mount but they can flow better than the early heads, however to do all the work required for your system will only complicate the system with expensive machine work with very little return on investment....So, why don't you just put a Chevy engine in your Mopar.....
Working within the confines of a Mopar, this is what we came up with. Sometimes you have to make the best out of what you have!
@@paragonengines1924 Ahh, but you did not work within the confines of Mopar...
I think it's cool, wish there was a cost effective sbc conversion without going offshore junk.
It has crossed my mind, it might be on the list!
My question is y not just make factory style 1.7 rockers for the 318 and if this set up works what's the availability? U can't even get parts that are mass produced like from comp and is the advantage out way the cost? LS's don't impress me I see sbc's beating them every day
The geometry doesn't work out putting a 1.7 in the stock shaft location. I haven't starting producing them yet, but we will see if the demand grows.
It seems like the focus of the video was comparing the LS conversions against each other and not against the factory or aftermarket factory Dodge LA style replacements. - a design Dodge themselves changed to individual rockers in the early 90's with the Magnum series heads. Both generations of Mopar heads have upgraded aftermarket direct replacement style rockers that work well up to the flow limits of the heads, at which point the aftermarket heads have their own valvetrain anyways. Much like the Viper rod conversion, it seems like an over complicated way to fix something that wasn't really broken or something that had already been fixed using an easier method before. I'm not saying that there is no merit to these changes - just that both the rockers and the Viper rods are better suited to a shop using up existing inventory and can control their labor costs for the machine work for these conversions than for someone paying full price for new parts and labor.
All valid points. It was easier for us than it would be for someone in their garage, with no equipment or parts. But, on the same hand, being that we are fortunate enough to have the resources, why not make something that is outside of the box and spark people's interest in thinking further than "what's already been done."
I understand what you did and why you did it for serviceability, but what if one of the custom machines pedestals gets damaged? Then it wouldn't be easily available to replace. Trying new and different things is what started hot rodding, so keep it up. I do think there are some suitable off the shelf shaft mounted systems with roller tips out there that would have worked very well in the application, but may have been 1.6 to 1 ratio only, but changing cam profile to match the full system could have given similar performance results.
That's a good point, lets hope we never have to find out!
Put me down in the “it’s awesome and I want it” category.
Will do!
Same haters whined when someone came out with a way to mount sbc rockers on a small block Buick. The haters that criticized your setup are either mad because they spent the big bucks on the T&D rockers or they're just ignorant purists. You guys did a great job with this conversion don't let the nay sayers get you down, odds are seeing how they can't beat you they'll become customers.😁👍
I know they're out there, but I do it for guys like you that appreciate the hard work!
It looks like, to me, you are substituting one shaft system for another better performing shaft system.
Nailed it!
Looks to me its a great idea! I am curious as to what would it take to use LS rockers on a magnum 5.9.
You are one of many! Including me!
How do they get oil? A 318 oils threw the shaft which is its purpose! Springs are the problem! Put adj. Rockers on it!
Through the lifters and pushrods, like a SBC.
@@paragonengines1924 must be a roller engine! Which i just use roller rockers! I see what your doing now!
I would think just having the choice of ratio arms is enough of an advantage compared to the stock ..looks good to me ...would do if I could afford
Thank you!
Necessary? probably not. Cool as fuck? Indeed.
Thanks!
Those LS rockers just DO THE JOB! No dispute over it! And seriously, this was just a cool build!
That they do! Thank you!