Are Bands REALLY Being TRUTHFULL About Merch Fees?
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- Опубліковано 29 тра 2024
- Bands paying Merchandise Fees to venues is a HUGE topic right now, with tons of different people weighing in on the subject. But are bands being entirely truthful about it? In this video I take a few recent situations and break them down and try and explain what is actually going on from the viewpoint of a former touring merch manager.
00:00 Intro
02:06 My Merchandise Background
04:02 Monuments' 47% "Merch Fee"
06:32 Tax Is Not A Merch Fee
09:39 Monuments Settled Their Merch Wrong
14:53 Bands Saying Merch Fees Are Theft...
16:19 ...But It's In Their Contract
19:13 My Opinion/Experience
24:52 How Do We Fix This For Everyone?
26:40 Outro
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My limited experience with merch fees:
My band was added to a show opening for Blacktop Mojo. We were a late addition and had to sell tickets-$30 each, and we kept $3 of each ticket we sold (which is bullshit already). The person who put us on the show explicitly told us there was NOT a merch cut. We get to the venue, have a great time, and at the end of the night, here comes the stage manager to collect on merch. We explained our side, showed him the texts, everything. He didn’t care. He wanted 15%. Problem was, because we weren’t expecting a merch cut, we didn’t track our inventory in as much detail as we would have had we known. We ended up giving the dude 15% of our entire cash drawer because we had no record of our starting cash.
We keep much more detailed information now, for sure. But at the same time, this venue did absolutely NOTHING for us in terms of selling the merch, etc. It wasn’t right, in my opinion, for them to take a cut at all.
I’ve considered putting in our booking contract that if there is a merch cut, we take an equal percentage of the bar sales, but that’s just a quick way to never get booked again 😂
First of all, screw the person that gave you $3 for every $30 ticket you had to sell to do the show. That's insane.
And that venue was definitely trying to strong arm you. If there isn't a fee in your contract (e-mails and texts can be legally binding as well, by the way), you do NOT have to pay one. In your situation, I would have just made up a random ass number of sales and been like here ya go. If they didn't count you in or out, they have no way of questioning whether you're actually giving them an accurate percentage.
@@TankTheTech Yeah, it was TOTAL bullshit. The worst part is we were added so late that we missed out on like 20 sales because those people we knew who would want to go already had their tickets. Plus we’re just a local opener. We’re actually using your inventory template now, and refuse to play at that venue (unless it’s MUCH more reasonable on the ticket split) or work with that promoter anymore.
There is a smaller venue next door that not only pays better… but also doesn’t take a merch cut. We’ll play there anytime.
Choice and consequence
@@danielabilez3619ez for you to say, prick
Man on behalf of all us in bands out here still trying to do the damn thing, no matter the odds stacked against us, THANK YOU for all the valuable "life lesson" information you share with us! it definitely helps us navigate the hardships !
There should be tiers of venue cuts on contracts like:
5% dark corner somewhere inside
10% lights and tables set by venue
15% above plus food&drinks on house for merch crew
20% above plus venue brings x number of staff for merch sales
25% above plus venue owner is on vacation
Hahahaha. No joke, I think you may be on to something.
I love how you pointed out that 38 Euros is a big deal for touring musicians (gas, meals, convience stuff on the road) You can tell you're really professional with your work and that shit wouldn't fly if it was your band being taken care of.
I saw muse and evanescence this past weekend and every time I walked by the merch tables I couldn’t stop thinking about this kind of stuff with the merch company running it. Thank you for the education 🤘
My question is "Do the venues depend on Merch fees to make ends meet?" If suddenly all the bands revolt and stop selling merch on-site, will the venues be forced to raise their fees in other places in order to survive?
Good question. I don’t know the answer with 100% accuracy, so I can’t comment.
Speaking just from my own experience working bars for 15 years, there are plenty of times where the venue (especially smaller ones) don't even keep the merch cut. It goes straight to the promoter. It's kind of a way for the venue to subsidize paying promoters. Though now with LiveNation/Ticketmaster owning pretty much everything, all the money ultimately gets put into the same pot, so it doesn't really matter.
I was one of those fans and musician in a band spazzing out over this. I have a better understanding of how this works now and will be showing this to the others. Thank you ever so much for all this information Tank 🤘🏻
Bottom line is, if it’s in your contract you owe the venue Merch fees.instead of crying to your audience about how unfair it is, you should be asking your representative that signed the contract, agreeing to the terms WTF! Seriously if you don’t want to pay the fees you agreed to don’t sell Merch.
Great video. I worked at the AT&T in San Antonio and worked many concerts and late nights. I worked in the cash room, so handled the merch and concessions. The artists in these arena shows make tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars. We would have merch tables on multiple levels and even outside the arena and had them fully staffed. The artists definitely need to pay for that service. No one person can do it. Been going to concerts since the 80's and been to many club shows and if the bands are personally selling their merch, they should keep the money and just pay the taxes. Keep up the great work, Tank. Love your channel.
I've probably done shows there while you've been there, depending on the timing. Hahaha. I love the merch crew there, and have had awesome nights working there.
The only way I can see out of this, like in any other negotiations with large corporation/factories/governments/any large powerful group in the history, is...through union/organized actions. If the venue say "well fine find another venue" when a band refuse the cut, but 90% of all bands refuses the cut, the venues also stand to loose A LOT. The one at the bottom of the chain, the band, are the one actually producing, bringing in the people in, to generate that money. That's called a strike, and if it have became a dirty words in many countries, history just show that it work and is the only way to break monopoly hold and established predatory habit...
But sadly I don't see it happening any time soon because :
1) band/touring isn't an "organized" profession, it's still, for 90% of bands out there, done in a "amateurish"/"hobbyist" mentality, not recognized, handle or managed like a "job", so it make it very hard to have any kind of global, cross-band organization
2) on the short term, it's more risky and there is a lot more to loose for bands than venues. In countries without social security net, not touring mean no money, no food, no rent. And without the organization talked in 1), there is no "common pot" to support those "strike" effort.
3) it would require a lot of support by a fan, as that may mean no tour for quite a while, and venues (especially big corp like live nation) will leverage that to rile up fan as "this is the band fault if you can't have live show, blame them" through dozen of advertorial content and more.
Yeah, I totally think a full on strike is the way to go, like Architects called for. The problem, which goes along with your points, is that you'll NEVER get every single band to boycott venues because some of them absolutely need to play a live show, and would rather take the merch fee than not play at all.
@@TankTheTech While it's true that you'll never get *all* Bands to join a union & support a strike, you don't have to. A good portion of the bigger names would be enough to put some pressure on the venues.
There is a solution in my opinion. Bands have to stop selling merchandise on their tours and only sell tour merchandise on their website. It will require them to make merchandise available on their website as soon as possible before the start of their tours. The bands will have to post on their social media accounts that they will not sell anything at the venues during their tour.
They will have to make sure that people know that they can only get their merchandise from their website via social media and shows they do to promote the tour. I even believe that they should mention the merchandise website a few times during their set. They won’t have to pay a fee because they aren’t selling anything at the venue. If I’m wrong please feel free to let me know. Thanks.
that seems pretty easy actually. i know sometimes ppl go to shows and like walking away with something but given the situation, fans would understand
Sadly not a great idea, at least not seen from the fan side of things. Just ordered a hoodie the other day at a merch site, and on top of the €55 for the hoodie, came another €10 for the P&P. My choice of course, but still a substantial raise in price that the band does not get a share of either. And I was lucky that I'm an Electric Callboy fan, that they ship from EU otherwise it could have been even more expensive if I wanted something sent from US to EU.
That said, I think that venues should consider moderation. Some venues are small and may need the extra income. Some venues, as @TankTheTech mentions, are big and provide a service. Some are money-grabbing asswipes. Some bands are in dire need of the money, some are not. There is no one-size-fits-all solution to this, IMHO.
Wouldn't work. Postage costs are so high at the moment that the band would lose even more trying to keep prices reasonable plus there is a big difference between someone enjoying a live show with a few beers in them and deciding to buy a shirt at that moment compared to people the next day at home going to the effort of ordering a shirt online. Anything that involves effort, most people simply won't do, from my experience.
besides the feeling of talking to a band member when you just bought their T-shirt - I am not sure that the shipping costs are always less than merch fees. It's probably worse for the environment, too
@@Evy-1988 if a person wants to support their favorite bands it shouldn’t be a problem paying for shipping. Buy more at once to make the shipping cost not as much of a problem.
I COULD understand the high percentage of merch cuts, IF and only IF, they provide the workforce to sell the merchandise and provide all tents tables chairs etc, to sell the merchandise.
This is a very, very important video that is going to piss a lot of people off. Things won't change unless being talked about and you make great points that are absolutely valid. I hope that the contracts can change in the future in a way that either the merch cuts become fairer or the bands get a cut from the bar.
You making and posting this video is highly respectable and I hope people can learn from it and take it as the valuable advice that it is.
Yeah, like with anything, there will be people that agree with some of my points, and others that get upset because they are so far on one side of the argument. But hey, if only a few people can watch this and maybe understand it better, mission accomplished.
@@TankTheTech That will definitely happen. The discussion is shining a light on this very important issue - wether the contracts change or not, I feel like fans (myself included) are buying more merch. I went to see Entheos and Archspire in Essen last week and there was not a minute without people buying merch for all bands that night. I was so happy to see this.
Just catching up with your channel. As an avid millennial concert-goer I love the informative content. My personal experience: I've basically stopped buying merch at shows now. In a given year, I go to about a dozen shows, and I might buy 2 things the entire year whereas previously, I was buying a shirt at every other show.
While I sympathize with the bands, it's also not fair for us attendees to be paying $40-50 for a tshirt. I think the most egregious price I saw recently was in seeing Shinedown in Syracuse in Sept 2022; they wanted $120 for a purple/black zip-up hoodie! I loved the piece, but could nowhere near justify that kind of cost. Half that price? Absolutely. But $120? No effing WAY. & I think that's part of the problem: by passing the jacked up prices to attendees, bands are literally pricing them out of being able to buy anything. It's very sad to see.
What they could do is either no merch cut or if a merch cut is in the contract they could in turn agree on a cut from the bar that is capped by the merch fee. So venues wouldn't "lose out" through this. That way bands would be given money for providing customers to the bar, which would only be fair as they are the reason for people drinking at that venue in the first place, but through the cap, venues wouldn't be able to say that they'd be paying extra because of that.
The bands are already getting a cut of the tickets though (aka the door), and that’s better because it doesn’t matter if the person drinks or not. There are some bands that have really young audiences and they’re not even old enough to drink, so offering them a cut of the bar is almost meaningless because there isn’t going to be a lot of bar sales. In reality though, venues won’t give that up because they don’t have to, these small bands just don’t have the leverage to demand it. To get a piece of the bar you would have to come to them with a very compelling door deal where the venue is committing to pay very little to the band and it’s all contingent on the bar being big, otherwise the venues just won’t do it. You would have to make it really attractive to them, otherwise there’s no reason for them to agree to it. Here’s the other thing that anyone who has worked at a venue or promoter will know - they aren’t usually taking in tons of money from a show themselves. Putting on a show costs money, there’s security, venue production staff, advertising etc. They take some of the merch money because otherwise it’s not really worth it to them to do the show, so if bands want to start cutting into their already tight margins, they’ll find there’s just less venues out there or they won’t be interested in booking them.
@@mutedmutiny9542venues are taking cuts of the merch because they can.
Because they have artists bent over a barrel.
Being in a smaller band, I've luckily only encountered this once. Toured Europe in 2019 and finished our dates at a large metal festival in the Netherlands. Venue (013 Poppodium - amazing place) handled merch for us - they counted us in, manned the table, and counted us out and we were only charged 10%. So basically a small fee that freed us up to play and then enjoy the fest. I think we did like $1600 in sales so the $160 to the venue I was happy to pay. We also tour without a merch person anyway so it was a great helping hand.
Really intersting! I went to a Bad Omens show recently here in Belgium an they sold tons of nice merch. When I looked at the prices, a hoodie for example was sold for €75, I thought "Damn, back in the days a hoodie for such a band used to be something like €55 tops at a venue, Covid is such a b*****".
Now I understand that it's not only because of Covid but also the laws of each country and the venues asking for a certain percentage of the sales.
I'm more like an album guy so I'm glad I bought their first album at the show, especially knowing it's important for the bands!
Tank, you make far too much sense, nice breakdown of how it works behind the scenes. I have worked in many live venues over the years, mostly 300 to 1,200 capacity venues in the UK, and none of those venues took a cut, we had an area set out with tables for bands at the back of the room to sell their merch, we provided nothing but the tables and space, bands were expected to bring everything else, and they took 100% of the proceeds, paying tax is the band's problem, if they didn't pay their tax, that's on them. Just one last note, 38 euros is nowhere near a full tank of gas, fuel prices in Europe are averaging about €5.50/gallon right now.
Good point on the gas, but you get my point. Hahaha. To be fair, $38 is a full tank in my car in the US and that’s where way head was most likely at.
@@TankTheTech Yes, I got the point, and yes, in the US we are spoiled when it comes to gas prices. I now live in the US and when my US friends and family complain about gas prices, I remind them how good they have it compared to Europe, where if you get any change from €100 for a full tank, you're doing good.
The thing that I have been dealing with is reselling tickets at huge mark ups. I went to purchase KISS tickets this morning and the only tickets left we resale tickets and a few non sold seats. One non sold seat on the floor was just over $1,900. A resell seat at the 200 level that was a bar stool seat was just under $1,900. That is crazy! It seems like if you want to see an artist you have to be first in line, because I am not buying a resell ticket.
Thanks for the thoughtful breakdown for how this stuff should actually be working. I hope some bands will check this out as well as your video where you included the free document download to help with merch sales. It could be an improvement to some of the things they might currently be doing. :D
Thank you Tank for setting things straight
👍👍
I love these insights into the music industry videos like this. So happy to have Tank the Tech on the iRacing car. Glad to promote such a great channel.
🤘🤘🤘 Love it, dude! Thank you!
I agree with you on stadiums. The problem is that smaller venues also operate by that logic. A band we work with (I own an indie label as well) tours with a merch manager. They play club shows where their merch manager can perfectly handle it by himself. Yet, he’s been put out of a job, because the venue wants to handle it themselves. So the band not only has to pay the merch cut, they also have to pay their own merch manager’s salary for the day. Not selling any merch on the day is a disappointment to the fans, so they don’t want to do that as well. But at the end of the day the band is royally screwed.
Thanks for a nuanced and informed video.
Can't say I see a one-size-fits-all solution here, other than agents and bands being aware how to negotiate, do their taxes and manage their accounts as not to let venues run away with their money. There is probably little hope that venues will attempt moderation and a case-to-case approach to fees.
Definitely going to be curious to hear your thoughts on this.
I've been seeing a lot of bands talking about it lately - I think the first time I heard about it was from Architects.
It's been a long time since I played live and we were never big enough to have venues care about our merch sales.
but I've definitely seen venues try to pull some shady shit to get out of paying what they promise, so it absolutely wouldn't surprise me to find out that this is super common now.
Excellent video! One topic I'd like to hear you discuss is the existence of multiple album versions and why they're a thing (if you haven't already). I always try to get the most comprehensive album I possibly can, and often that just means getting the "Deluxe" version as most bands have a normal, then a "Deluxe" with extra tracks. However you can often get country exclusive releases (thinking Dragonforce Japanese albums) and other types of special releases and I'm wondering what the reason for all of these is. Would you be able to do a video explaining the reasoning behind this, as I feel like it has to have more to it than just "more money".
I can understand deluxe albums that say, add acoustic versions or live versions to the back of the album. This makes sense as it's an "extra" version. However some albums (the example that prompted this is Bullet For My Valentine's 2021 self-titled) just seem to have brand new songs on there that just don't exist on the main album, but are for all intents and purposes new music. That makes less sense to me.
Just like Bart Simpson said...Your damned if you do and your damned if you don't. lol Crazy. Love you Tank! Thumbs Up and shared as always. A+++
That makes sense now. My son and I saw Gojira in Orlando with Silent Planet, Alien Weaponry and Knocked Loose. T-Shirts were $30-35. We saw Fit For a King in Atl, again, shirts were $35. August Burns Red in Pensacola…$35. I think $35 is completely worth it and supports the band. I took my husband to see the Doobie Brothers at Oak Mountain Amphitheater and tshirts were $55 or 60! I was shocked. It was already a sacrifice to get there and he decided he didn’t want a shirt that night but I couldn’t believe the difference. Now I totally get it. Thanks.
crazy insights from you man, keep up the work, high value content!
Perhaps we're heading towards not selling at the venue and have people to go to a "tour" store? It would suck for people wanting to take home merch that day and they may lose overall sales from people who don't want to wait for merch or not buy at all because its not "from the show" (a memory) aka same as buying at home. This would likely work for a large band perspective but small ones may lose more sales than if they paid the fee. On the flip ANY band could lean into cheaper merch price (which may mean more overall sales) and/or saying they aren't paying fees and to support them online. Its an interesting situation that's for sure.
Hello, blind comment in appreciation. I haven't watched the video yet but it's immediately clear that it's one of your current-issue-discussion videos. I've greatly enjoyed them in the past and I'm looking foward to watch this one. Cheers!
This was a good one!
Having been on all sides, at some point or another....... musician, road crew, event management.......
It's like most things in life .... don't be too f##kin greedy!
😂 😂
Stops a lot of animosity & stress!
😂
The more I see your channel makes me happy I chucked it decades ago. God bless anyone who wants to deal. Certainly the prize is not worth it.
Really interesting, thanks! It's an old, old tale - when I was a games programmer in the 80s the first game I worked on was Trivial Pursuit, which sold for £15.99 in the UK. The large chain stores took 55% straight away, and once you took out the license fee, publisher's cut, production, promotion, and distribution costs, we as a company ended up with 72p _(before_ taking out tax). Much of that was perfectly justified, but the initial 55% for shelf space felt way too much to all of us. They had us over a barrel, though, because if you were only selling in smaller outlets you wouldn't get the sales volume. The companies with the power will always get what they can, and the creatives are almost always at the bottom of the heap.
As an Italian to nearly every concert I’ve been the seller of the merchandise all spoke Italian, in one there were 4 people or 5 I don’t remember and one spoke English and tried to sell something but always needed to be replaced by someone else because fans spoke Italian and he couldn’t understand what they needed
Thanks for this very informative video. As someone with a commercial job, I can 100% agree that everything you said about VAT and contracts is totally normal business practice in any industry. And the key to negotiating any contract in your favor is balance of power, which is with the venues at the moment. So a strike as Architects suggest is basically going in the right direction of changing that - maybe just "strike" on the merch sales, not the whole gig. If enough bands did that, it could put pressure on venues. But the bands need their fans to back them up, which is why it's important they talk about this on social media to raise awareness. If a band that I support was asking fans to order online rather than buy at a show because it helps them more, of course I'd do that. The increased coverage of the topic helps to raise that awareness for the reasons behind it. Tbh I did not expect venues getting any cut at all (if they only provide the space) until I saw Sam's tweet, and so thanks again for sharing your experience and insights from behind the scenes to help fans understand this even better.
I absolutely agree that the topic needs to be widespread and talked about. But it also needs to be 100% honest. Lose the misleading headlines, calling tax "merch fees", and EXPLAIN IN FULL to the fans what is going on with this stuff.
Probably most constructive way to fight the fees would be through contract. If a place wants a merch fee, demand to know what it covers. Negotiate and demand details. Floorspace 0%. Table, chair & electricity, small cut. Staff and premium spot, bigger cut. Then you have leg to stand on if the venue doesn't do their part. Venues might not accept just refusing to pay merch fees, but they might be willing to negotiate something they provide in exchange. And it is easy thing for agents to ask. What do we get for that money?
If it's a live nation or AEG venue....a class action lawsuit with as many bands as possible....I understand the larger venues using their own staff and that should remain...any smaller LN or AEG venue that doesn't staff the merch there should be a rental fee(like flea markets and such) not a percentage and you can fight that in court
Came across your channel via Finn's interview.
Mad respect to you mate and hope you get back to Australia soon 😀
Thanks a ton!
Very solid breakdown dude!
Music has been the thing I'm most passionate about my entire life and I've always wanted to be involved in the music scene in some way. What these videos do for me is confirm what I really want to do is open my own venue for the benefit of both fans and bands alike. Cut out the merch fee, more affordable concessions, taking care of touring musicians as if they're a guest in my own house. I know it's not that simple and there's a lot of financing behind the scene to make that happen, but that would be my dream to be a part of live music 3-4 nights a week.
I'd go see shows at your venue if that were the case. 🤘
I worked at a venue like that. We let touring bands sleep at the venue if they needed to and we never took a cut of merch. Every touring band was blown away when they read that part of the contract. The guy I worked for said that it's their merch so it's their money.
@@truckingdrummer it's great and all, but you have to remember that you can't help anyone if you shutdown....
@tank. Thank you for explaining this man in such a neutral and professional manner. Learnt a couple of things I need to watch for in the coming months.
Big up Manorfest in the uk for being the only festival not charging bands a penny and using their own staff to sell bands merch. ✊👏👏👏🤘
With a bit of organisation the small to mid bands could sell their merch through select pubs/bars in the local to the venue. The ones that the fans go to first before the venue. Places in Leeds and Manchester have offered this service free of charge to any bands. Their bar takings would be a lot higher so it’s a win win for all. Sometimes certain bands fans organise after show fan party’s as well so that could be the before and after option. The QR code thing is a good idea or the just plain out of the back of the bus in a pull up 3m square gazebo and card machine option although local councils will prob be onto this especially if the venue dobs them in. 🤷🏼♂️
I can kinda see the argument for that the venue is renting out their space to the band to sell stuff, but also your point that the people there come for the band not the venue per se so it’s like that both need each other no either make money. I also agree that for the venues that basically do nothing but own the building shouldn’t get a cut of the the bands profits but idk how that would really be enforced
Everyone should check out a book called Chokepoint Capitalism. It's not specifically about this issue, but it is about how huge monopolies are screwing over creators. I'm in the process of reading it and I am in the chapter titled, "Why Prince Changed his Name." The author has claimed in interviews that he and his co-author have ideas on how to make things better. I'm not to that part yet, but hopefully he's right.
It'd be funny if they could section off part of the stage for merch before and after the show. They don't wanna rent you out a space out front? Use the stage 😂 I know it's not really possible, but it'd be funny!
Bands would just make the bassist sell the merch
Very good video as usual. One question: who takes the loss for cases of theft? It's probably rare, but it can probably happen (concert goers, employee< etc.).
All depends on who is selling. If I am doing merch for a band, and I'm say, $100 short on money because someone stole a few shirts throughout the night, that's on me. If the venue is selling merch for me, and they're $100 short, they still owe me for the merch that's missing.
The only way to fix this is to get creative with the deals and offer the venue something back in lieu of their merch cut so that they are committing to less money on the show. The thing is that not just any band can do this because if they give up something in exchange for a better merch percentage but they don’t actually sell a lot of merch, then they’re going to lose out on the deal overall, so it will take a band that knows they will sell a lot of merch to do this, they need to KNOW that they would end up better off with all their merch sales than a guarantee for the show or a better cut of the door. So that’s basically it, if you’re getting a $500 guarantee, tell the venue you only want $250 but you want to keep all your merch money. Or if it’s a door deal tell them you’ll take a smaller cut of the door in exchange for the full merch %. That’s the only way they will ever agree to it and again, this won’t work for every band, some would be better off just leaving things as they are and not trying to make more from their merch, only bands that don’t make a lot on tickets but do sell a lot of merch can really do this and make out better off than they were before, but that’s the only way to do it. Or, put on your own show. That’s the real alternative. Do it yourself.
I think more bands are going to do semi-live shows to post on their youtube channels and will get paid through that and any online merch sales. I know it's not the same as seeing a band live but your audience is a hell of a lot bigger on youtube than most venues across an entire tour if you're a smaller band. As much as I love seeing live shows, I would not be upset if all bands pulled together and stopped touring as a big F you to livenation and others so they hopefully stop screwing people. Monopolies are illegal but that's exactly what is happening and if government isn't going to stop it (which I have zero confidence in government so not holding my breathe there), time for bands and fans to take a temporary hit for the long term gain of the industry.
Its a shit thing dude. Great video and i am with you 100%. Shame the bands cant do a pop up stand by the bus each time and sell direct to fans that way. No bands - no venues so i do think the power lies with bands. Issue is, who is going to be the first generation to boycott it and certain venues. It would be a brave move. Surely if a tour deal gets put together, a band can not sign a contract for fees and just choose not to sell merch and ask for a non merch contract. Thing is, with how touring is, any extra income is so needed so i think overall, the ball just keeps rolling.....
Hypothetically.. if a band instead of setting up a merch table just hung up a sign with a QR code that went to a unique tour website to sell exclusive merch for the tour ; would the venue still want a %? of that?
Good question. If they did, it’d be super hard to enforce.
@@TankTheTech You could also just print a unique QR code on the ticket, leading to a webpage that is only active during the show +/- 1 hour.
It should count towards the tax of where the band lives since it's an online purchase. Just with super speedy delivery. Import fees could apply.
Or make special tickets that are more expensive, but where merch t-shirt/hoodie/record/whatever (decided beforehand) is included "free". Then it's technically not sold at all. There are many loopholes here.
The larger issue is what percentage of the revenue for the venue is the merch fee.
Example, I have a lot of experience doing antique shows, etc. when you are a vendor you pay for your table for the weekend. There is a fee for power hookup, and that’s it. Better rates if you get more than X tables. Etc. the venue collects that money from dealers setting up and that’s that. Then they charge people coming in the show. $5-15 a head depending on the show. That’s for people to have the right to come in and buy things.
The show collects money from vendors. And money from people coming in. That’s their revenue. Then they are paying a fee to use the building, the electric fee, usually guards and overnight guards. Advertising. Etc. I can’t paste an excel sheet in here but you get the picture. They have money going out and they have money they collect.
We’d really need a deep dive analysis on music venues sharing their excel sheets. What is every revenue stream in? What is every revenue stream out? And at the end of it, is a merch fee justifiable? I don’t anticipate any of these venues turning out their books to us to see, but that’s really the question. It could very well be the case that merch fees help keep venues open. It could be the case that merch fees are predatory.
I like the hard math approach in the video. Takes the emotion out.
100% agree with you. For this to become truly fair, there needs to be total transparency to know if the venue is relying on that merch split or if they're just getting it because they can. Finn McKenty asked me on his podcast if I thought bands should get percentage of bar sales, and I honestly don't know, because I have no idea what the cost, markups, and revenue coming in is.
I feel it should be a percent up to a max amount (a reasonable cap) or flat fee per hour. Smaller bands could benefit from the former as they'll retain more as they may not sell a lot, and larger bands from the latter as since they'll sell more they can retain more. Give bands the option to make the choice between the two based on how they think things will pan out (Check your numbers in those states, countries, etc to see how popular you are, check previous tour sales to predict future sales, check how similar bands did at a location, basically it'll be a bit more backend work for the band if they want to make the most informed decision).
My thinking is that the best way to avoid venue merch cuts and still get the sales and give the fans a way to support the band with merch, is to direct fans to online shops.
If a band puts a QR code up and uses that to direct fans online to purchase merch, would the venue have any legal standing to take any sort of pay cut from an online sale?
At that point the purchase is happening digitally, thus meaning it's happening outside the venue, correct? I'm sure a lot of people will have a lot to say about this but I'd really love to hear your thoughts on this, Tank: The idea of a band exclusively directing people to their online shop.
sigh, bought an Architects t-shirt at copenhell, just before they cancelled the show (again) because of bad weather (thought the British was used to rain and a bit of lightning?)
Please let me know if I'm wrong for thinking this but the agent should be making sure that it's specified in the contract that the merch cut is taken only from the net gains, not the gross, and that it's specified what the dimensions of the merch space, tables in number and size, chairs, rack, and ample lighting be provided at the venue. If these aren't provided, then use the loophole of "we signed a contract for merch sales, that doesn't necessarily mean we are obligated to sell merch there". If you are obligated, sell one piece and leave it at that. Maybe even check to be sure there isn't an NDA in the contract so the band can say why there isn't merch being sold that day at that venue.
YeH that tax thing. I caught on to that before you pointed it out. I live in St. Louis and touring anyone (bands athletes etc) have to (are supposed to) pay the city a 1% tax on top of whatever other taxes and fees there are.
Yeah since I live in the city they take the tax out of my paycheck (I don’t work in the city). At my salary it’s not a lot but for a touring musician that’s pulling in arena level money it can be thousands
I totally understand the bands point of view. But there is something else that should be considered: Some of the venues may be literally fighting for their own survival... I know of 2 in my country (Switzerland) that are on the verge to be shut down, for various reasons. If that should happen, there is nothing left in the 1000-5000 capacity segment for metal bands...
it's music business.....bands need to learn the music and the business. Get educated. Get creative....you MUST find a way give the fans what they want or fade away.
I wonder if bands could have a "online nerch presale" where you buy online and thenjust pick up at the venue. Youd have to bring proof of purchase (which is pretty easy) butinstead of having a "merch area" just have a friend with the boxes of merch next to the stage and have them organize it. Would be limited in the size of crowds but for those small bands that need that merch money for food and gas it might work. Or for slightly larger bands try to get a temp retail license in the town youre playing in (would have to be done in advance and this is lots more work...) and see if you can just sell merch like you are a food truck or something before the show. Id totallygo to a merch truck to buy my shirt and CD before I go to the show 😂
People NEED to learn to use excel and have templates that auto calculate. NEED tax information sheet for locations. Could easily setup a google doc that allows for others to edit the tax % on a another sheet, also make it public the merch costs for each venue, could have sheets that track that (which will create downward pressure on venues when people realize they're getting screwed out of $ and setup shows elsewhere)
Tried to buy a FIR shirt online, from australia and it was $90 for a shirt including shipping. Its just sad because i want to buy and support merch of many bands especially because they dont usually tour to Australia . But its just the cost of even just a jumper, priced at $120 at a harry styles concert. My friend bought it and it was horrible quality.
Im just frustrated how expensive merch is for horrible quality.
If u see this love ur vids x
Yeah, and that's one big downside to if bands started telling all of their fans to just buy online; some of those shipping costs would be worse on the fans than marking up prices at venues to cover merch fees.
24% in Greece is the standard tax in all products, except food, where is lower at 13%.
We love seeing $150 hoodies at the last A7X tour 😭😭
It's a simple answer. I agree that if the venue sells the merch, they have earned a negotiated fee. If not, they didn't, The assist to bands is to hire a "general manager" experienced in contract negotiation. Not an agent.
The agreement for a band at a club level is that in exchange for you to pedal your wares (music/merch,) you attract patrons for them to sell their wares (drinks/food.) There is no reason for a band at that level, especially without an explicit contract, to give a cut of their merch. There is a lot that goes into making merch at the DIY level, and i would sell my merch in the parking lot if i have to.
Coming late to the video. But a solution is finding a way to track who bought a ticket get an online code that allows you to purchase merch from the tour on a limited timeframe if you went to a show. Since ticket sales are handled by venues I’d imagine this is not an easy solution as well. It could be just an honor system website. Enter in the city name you attended and you then can buy. Because venues will not help this process of giving out “merch codes” with a ticket sale. If enough bands did online sales and boycotted the fees then there is the leverage. But that would require someone to successfully do this and pave a way.
Less the cost of the production of the merch in the first place as well I suspect.. very few bands are going to get rich from selling merch but I suppose the other arguement is the visibility. It gets them when we are all wearing their brand.
A way that bands could take the upper hand is start just doing paid Livestreams. It's happening in the manufacturing industry as to which staff and employees "quiet quit" on their companies and change careers leaving thousands of bottom feeder positions open. Companies now have to increase wages and stepup in order to retain talent.
I don't see the music industry being any different. Say if Metallica boycotted live shows due to Livenation taking too much of their cut, they could perform via payperview style Livestream and divide the earnings amongst themselves without giving any to Livenation. I could see this trickle down to more capital taken off of significantly smaller bands that are barely national as they'll need to take more from the little guys but smaller venues bringing in crowds bands drawing less than 1k in attendance wouldn't be able to keep the corporation afloat the way they are constructed worldwide. They would probably be forced to downsize.
You can always sell online, but the online merchant is going to take a cut too. I'm selling some stuff on eBay and between eBay fees and taxes, I'm making about 80% of what the item sells for (buyer pays shipping). Selling at a club - people are gonna make impulse buys at the show (especially when they've been drinking) - so you don't want to lose out on that revenue stream either.
100%. And even though the merch fee situation sucks, merch still helps bands a TON on the road financially. And on your online statement, it all depends on the seller. A company like EBay will be charging more than say, a band's label shop or something like that.
@@TankTheTech The band's label will likely want their cut too if a band's merch is sold through the label's shop or one of their marketing/e-commerce partners... i.e., Sparkart does the websites and online merch for many bands like Slayer, Megadeth, Linkin Park, Ghost, Carrie Underwood, etc.
As with album and ticket sales, there's multiple hands in the merch sales and everyone's getting their cut.
I go to shows ALL THE TIME! I almost never buy merch. Not just because of the cost, I dont mind supporting a band I love. I hate dragging the shirts or whatever else I bought around the venue all night. I hate the lines, especially at the end of the show with the other fans who hate dragging the merch around the show all night. I dont like having to worry about it or leaving it somewhere. I would much rather have a QR code that I could use to have the tour merch sent to my house. Its so much easier. It would put more money in the bands pockets and not be supporting venues taking enormous fees.
24:25 “when the venue has done nothing for the band, they should get nothing”
Well they booked the band and took a chance on a show where if not enough people show up, they could be losing money even if they aren’t paying a guarantee. Doing a show costs money and even if it’s just a door deal for he act based on drop count, the venue may still be in the red for all their costs on the show. Taking a merch cut might not even put them into the black, but it might help them get closer to a break even. It’s just really hard for everyone, but at the end of the day as long as there are more bands than venues then the leverage will be skewed in the venues favor.
Went to Greece last summer, everyone offers a "discount" for cash. They even offered to take dollars at a very favorable rate when we didn't have enough Euros. Nobody there wants to pay taxes. The fee thing in general is a society wide issue, everyone has figured out they can add a tip or fee to every transaction.
Perhaps merch fees aren't the only cause, but I've noticed that the average band shirt price has jumped from 25 or 30 bucks to 40 or more at the shows I've been at. That's a heck of a jump since '19. I still buy the merch, hoping that it helps the bands out, but that's a steep inflation rate.
Hah! I said exactly the same thing when I saw that post. That's not a 47% cut, and it muddies the waters to claim it is. They clarified in the comments, but it still made them look a bit sketchy. In reality, they paid close to 31%, which is still a lot and how they should have framed it.
Watched a couple of your vids with this topic. I'm wondering if this is just a thing concerning "bigger" bands because I never heard of it before. Or if it is just a thing at the states.
It's rampant in the states for sure, but as you can see from the Monuments situation, it happens in Europe, and they're not what I would call a "bigger" band.
@@TankTheTech Heaven Shall Burn "thanked" venues with merch cuts in their end-of-tour posting on social media. And as it was a European tour it clearly happens in Europe too. Sadly, as a fan, we don't know which venues are doing this.
If noise ordinances weren't a thing in most cities or places and we weren't worried about people going out and leaving a place trashed after they leave. I'd say bands should just have "pirate shows" at random locations. The logistics of that would be a nightmare more often than not, but then they wouldn't have to worry about going out to a specific venue and pay all their fees. Then they could pull in all the profits from their merch sales and venues would have to rethink their business strategies if they aren't able to book any shows. The problem with this all idea is as I mentioned. Noise ordinances, People being filthy pigs leaving a place trashed and not cleaning it up and just the sheer logistics of finding a locations. Setting up the show promoting it. An absolute nightmare for any band to try and undertake.
Had the exact same thing with Underpressure in Milano!
One fact that’s not entirely correct: as a support act you don’t know Merch cuts months before the show. Sometimes you just get the info at Show day whether you are selling yourselves and/or if there is a merchandise cut. And that applies to different venue sizes from small to big in Europe. And as a support act you are even more depending on this income to make touring even possible before earning anything.
Last thing: thanks for putting up our vinyl on your wall and supporting us ❤
You could easily get that information from your agent when you get onto a tour. Even as a merch manager, not even a member of the band, I was able to get that info for bands I worked for well before the show days.
And yes, I still maintain merch at shows for any band is super important. I don’t want fans to get the idea that they shouldn’t but merch at shows, because it helps a ton for the bands on the road.
Hope you’re having fun and staying safe out on the road!
@@TankTheTech completely agree for all Headline dates 🤝 sometimes venues/agents are not that keen to answer questions the support or their agent has 😂
Greetings from Greece!
I can see maybe renegotiating the contract clause in regards to merchandise fees with management or convince the venue into taking a smaller cut, otherwise suck it up honestly I myself don't ever seeing something like this ever changing...
One question I do have regarding this video: Does a band whether they are local or big time have to feel required to sell merch at a venue whether or not they are signed via contract and/or a tour/festival while they play at a venue no matter its size? Cause I do understand the viewpoint of venue staff denying attendance for a band if they deny paying a merch fee but at the same time, I personally think it'd be fair for fans that would wanna see them play as long as the band is able to reason with venue staff & see if they were allowed opportunity to manage merch via other methods such as a birthday gift or hell even through a raffle/giveaway of some sort.
It’s basically up to a band whether or not they want to actually sell merch. A venue can’t MAKE them. But if there’s a merch fee in the contract, then unfortunately they’ll need to pay a fee if they sell, regardless of the size of a band.
There would be something, that makes it sort of worth it: Include mandatory venue staff for the merch table in the contracts. That makes it one less bunk occupied, one less person to feed on the bus and so on PER BAND. So yes, the bands on low cap venue tours would have to do count-ins and count-outs themselves, but the savings from not keeping a merch manager around would be worth it.
Obviously a different story for tours in mid-cap venues or arenas, but I guess Manowar or Def Leppard don't really mind the merch fee anyway and one more mouth to feed also doesn't matter on 100K merch gross per night.
You once said that the ticket companies linked up a lot of bands and venues to their service.
Which makes it hard for venues to sell tickets to an artist not connected.
Just like the Pearl Jam case where they struggled to get gigs at the big venues, because the companies had made it near impossible. My guess? Livenation etc. is taking such a big cut of the tickets, which leaves these venues with little anf the bands even less.
These corporations never care much about their artists. Like "nothing personal my friend, but our investors has to get money from the investments". it sadly looks like they got a chokehold on the musicbusiness, which hurts the ones at the bottom.
Nice factual breakdown
In all fairness, Greek taxes are kinda obscene. Greed was not the primary motivator behind tax evasion.
This is why at smaller venues I will be generous with tipping bands because that goes directly into their pockets with no cut.
Just make sure the band is the one selling. If the venue has their staff selling, the tips are going to them.
@@TankTheTech Yes I always do. \m/
Smaller bands should give the clubs and bars the ultimatum: No merch fees, or we can sell merch out of the back of our van after the show.
Even fans of small bands will jump at a guaranteed chance to meet them. Especially if the band was gonna be slinging their own merch anyway.
Totally agree, clearly the VAT shouldn't be included in this discussion.
I recently was at a gig and asked someone involved with the band: if they knew what makes bands more money: online merch sales or merch sales at the venue. He didn't have an answer. I think he honestly didn't know.
I’d say online merch sales.
@@TankTheTech yeah, that's my gut feeling too, but I wonder if they sell it for a lower price online and how shipping, handling, etc. cuts into it.
Every time I hear about the merch fees I'm surprised about the amount of the fees. Normally I would assume that if a venue doesn't do anything beside providing the space it would be a smaller fixed value. I also don't understand why bands are upset that the VAT has to be paid the the venue. To me this sounds like a way more comfortable solution because the band doesn't have to worry about a bigger expense later when the taxes are paid. But I may be a bit biased here, because here the taxes are always included.
38€ A full tank of gas? If you are in a place that uses euros... It's about a quarter tank...
Yeah, fair point. My mind was definitely thinking $$$ and not €€€ when I said that, but still… €38 that could have been used for gas that they gave away for no reason.
Does it their first Europe tour and because of that they didnt know what VAT is and how it work here or what? Did they dont know what is in their contracts?
I mean, Monuments is based in the UK and aren’t a new band. I’d say they were at least familiar. But I can’t say for sure.
Have banners with QR codes that when scanned send the fan directly to the bands merch website? Maybe?
That’s an option, yeah, but tour merchandise is still important in that it puts money directly into the pockets of bands while they’re on tour, and a lot of that money is needed to operate the tour.
It's sad to see a "bands vs venue" conflict... without concert venues, there is no live music. Without bands, there is no live music.
I'd love to be on the bands side... but only to a degree. Yes, 25% seems excessive to me, if the venue is not actively taking part in the sale of merch. I find it hard to come up with any example to compare it to, but at the end of the day, you're selling your stuff inside the venue. If I were to chose between, let's say, "10% merch cut & merch booth inside" or "0% merch cut & sell merch from a flimsy table outside of the venue with no roof, no heating, no light & no security", there's no way I'd go for the second option.
Should there be a cut from the bar for the artist? It doesn't sound too unfair, but if you introduce that, where do you stop? How about a percentage from the energy bill for all the fridges, the ac, the light and pa? For the rent of the property. The pay of the bar stuff, security, etc. It's supposed to be a trade, with all sides winning. The venue gets a crowd of customers, the band gets a crowd of fans, and the fans get a nice place to enjoy their favourite music at. It seems like, as it's often the case, a big part of the problem is big international companies owning hundreds of venues and gaining an enormous amount of power.
Maybe a strike is not that much of a bad idea. Or if those big companies tell the band "well, you're paying or you go find another venue."... maybe do just that? For some reason, I'm still seeing a ton of international bands doing tours in 500-800 capacity venues, about €30 per ticket, and still selling their merch for the same price they did 5 years ago. Just saw Bloodywood (from India) touring with Lake Malice (UK) in Germany the other day... €25 per shirt. And as far as I can tell, I've never seen any of those bands EVER complain. Probably an unpopular opinion, but maybe some bands are just rubbish when it comes to money 🤷♂
The way i see it, if the bands don't like the merch fee, then sell the merch online for a limited time or have one of their own crew members handout QR code for a private Tour Shop online.
Serious conment now. The problem is with getting the fans riled up, in the hope that fans will buy merch directly from the website, is that probably only 25% will do that after not buying at the gig. So overall the band will get less money overall anyway. Most merch purchases at a gig are impulse purchases.
VAT is just evil. My albums are on BandCamp. Sold a digital album to a customer in France last month. On a $12 Digital album, customer had to pay an additional 20% VAT. $2.40 in Tax on a digital music download.
VAT, the local tax, is not a thing once you have imported merch (or had merch made) in the European Union..... You can pay taxes over your sales at the end of the tour as a company.
These bands are idiots, if the merch cut is such a big deal to them most of the venues will probably just tell them to piss off because it’s the same for everyone, and if they don’t like it they can go play somewhere else. If they are willing to negotiate then they’ll just say fine, we will take less of your merch but we are gonna lower your guarantee or your door cut for the show, or they’ll say fine then you’re not getting a rider or something else that they are usually paying for. Like you can play with the numbers like that if they’re willing to negotiate, but one way or another they’re gonna get their money, so if it’s not merch then they’re going to take it out of something else. The small bands that are complaining about this have the least leverage of anyone to try playing hardball. The bands that have merch deals aren’t complaining.
The conversation we should be having is why taxes are so fucking high
So a few years back when Blackie Lawless of W.A.S.P refused to play Bristol O2 Academy citing the grounds of not being prepared to pay the venue such a high percentage cut if merch sales- that's clearly BS from Blackie.
You said they paid too much because they took the percent from gross and not net, but the article says the concession fee was a percent of gross. Their contract was for gross .
For me, the best way for bands to get around the merch fees would be to use print on demand services and they just have a qr code that people scan and buy through an official website. Saves the band from having to lug around the merch, deal with counting the merch every night especially if they're touring around Europe and have to produce accurate numbers for tax reasons as they enter and leave a different country every other day. The band have some merch samples so people can see and touch what they're buying but besides that they don't actually carry physical products with them.
Also, this stops the band from printing like 500 shirts and being stuck with hundreds of shirts if they didn't sell well.
There's are pros and cons to this approach but I feel like this would be really beneficial to a lot of bands and make their lives easier