Are bands that use click/tracks even real musicians?
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- Опубліковано 27 тра 2024
- Recently, Polyphia's drummer, Clay Aeschliman, had every musician's nightmare scenario in which his in-ear monitors stopped working during a live performance, and he could no longer hear the click or backing tracks. And in typical internet fashion, everyone seems to have an opinion on how the situation was handled, and are even questioning his, and other musicians' skills for even using a click and tracks during a performance.
In this video, we discuss what click and tracks actually are, talk about how they handled the situation, I give my opinion and experience with tracks from a touring standpoint, and even give you the opinion of another professional drummer.
00:00 Intro
01:22 What Are Tracks
06:14 The Polyphia Situation
10:02 Everyone's A Critic
14:54 Another Professional Drummer's Opinion
17:26 My Thoughts On Tracks
18:47 Outro
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As someone who has played drums, self taught for more than half of my life now (25) and never played to a click and am having to realize that I was absolutely hindering my performance and tempo control for almost 2 decades. It is a skill, a tool, and a enhancement to your music. It was from a place of ego and ignorance that I had forgone using in-ears and a metronome and now I realize how bad I am at keeping a tempo. I thought it added a uniqueness to the songs I recorded, to prove it wasn't made on a computer but looking back it just sounded like a bunch of amateurs making a song. Don't be me.
Thank you for sharing! Really wish more people would have this insight
Yeah,Agree.I never used metronomes.While living in Nashville,one of the main things bands were looking for in a drummer,was one who had"Good Meter'.Good sense of time.I can follow a click well,but I hate it.I'm blown away by drummers that can keep an awesome groove,throw in advanced licks,right on the click!(ex;Girlfriend/A.Lavigne).J.Freese is a good example.
Nailed it.
well, the best thing still is to learn to play with a metro so much that you can play without one. still can't beat the feeling of a good drummer that can push/drag when he wants deliberately and not because he didn't play enough. if everybody plays to a click like these days, it can sound pretty sterile and "griddy"
But as you improve your skill level you should not need one. Being able to "feel" the tempo inside you. And always starting off slowly learning new music, and then increasing the time signature until you get to the actual tempo of the song. See above, I wrote a pretty good (I think) note about click tracks. Johann. (I'm 50 now, been playing drums since 16, but also played trumpet and french horn in band in school, plus keyboards, and several years of guitars lessons. To be a well rounded musician it is important to be able to read and understand the music, even if you are just playing the drums. Which means learning another instrument. All the other instruments I took lessons, but on drums, like you I am self taught. Which will help you develop a unique individual sound (and not one like your drum teacher). But I had played the other instruments for a number of years before playing drums, so when I started on drums I was already ahead of the game with my musical understanding and skill. And I'm lucky, that even when I played the other instruments, I didn't have to "count" out the music. Same with drums. I have some kinda internal "metronome" that allows me to be rock solid with my time signature, without really thinking about it. That said, I went to college and chose a life of an accountant instead of a drummer/sound engineer. My greatest regret in life. But it's okay cause I still play drums (have a 7 piece Pearl Vision all Birch drumset. various Zildjian and Sabian cymbals - all 80/20 Bronze though). So I say to you, if you have the passion in you for music, follow it. You only get one life, so DO WHAT YOU LOVE ! (and then it isn't "work") :) Something I learned late in life, so I pass that along whenever I can. Remember one thing, to be a "good" drummer, it is important first to SOUND good! Pleasing to the ears. Well tuned, and miked drums. Then through time, as long as you continue to practice, the technical side of things will fall into place. But sounding good is KEY! (not how big a drum set you have or technical you are. trust me on this). check out above, hope you get this, and Peace my friend! Keep on Rockin'!!! Johann
In a previous band, we were set to play a show and, literally, 4 hours before we were supposed to take the stage opening for David Ellefson, our bassist's wife went into labor. Needless to say, he wasn't at the show. Because we had a click and backing tracks for every member, we were able to play that show as if he was with us on stage and it went flawlessly. I've been a die-hard fan of clicks and tracks since. Also, try playing drums, running tracks, orchestrating the show, acting as the band's MC, and singing lead and backup vocals while following a click. Welcome to the life of a modern drummer.
Damn that's really cool to hear! (I'd have printed out a picture of their face and stuck it on a mic stand too lmao)
Just so everyone knows.
Clay Aeschliman confirmed that they tried switching body packs, but it was an RF issue.
So on the drum throne he heard nothing but static, hence why they did the slap-metronome
Ah, thanks for that information! Totally makes sense.
i think drummers should not use RF IEM ... do not see a sense in it. but hey, everyone can use what is available to someone 👍
@@drumaddict89 Same. I’ve tried it. I probably had garbage quality RF IEMs, but still, I got so much interference. It’s wired IEMs or nothing for me right now.
I’d just like to add from a classical musician’s perspective: sure, there are great ensembles out there who could perform some pieces without a conductor. However, the best performances will always have a conductor leading the group. That is to say, even great classical musicians benefit greatly from being led by a conductor; the best classical musicians are no less real musicians if they are led by conductors.
…and for Film scoring the conductor is mostly wearing some headphones with a click as well.
Otherwise, he couldn’t keep up with the scenes….
Great comparison!
@@M.Holland I actually didn't know that!
Well said!
Yeah but conductors can vary the tempo on the go according to the piece. Machines generally don't. Varying tempo livens up the music
That drum tech deserves some type of award what an absolute G. Also anyone who whines about drum tracks/tracks knows nothing about music/live music
I Agree.Thank God I'm old,and I never had to mess with in ears or click,or tracks,y'all can take it from here...and WE had Instrumental solo's during songs!!(Old man rant.."back in my day...haha!)
I had this exact argument a month ago on Instagram on the butt pat video. Some random dude was saying that this world class conga player that is in his 80's he knows personally never uses a click track, that actual drummers and percussionists never use one because they are supposed to be the metronome themselves and using one means you can't keep time. The drummer in the video tried to explain how they use it to keep in sync with the light show and effects they use live so that the show is consistent and the guy basically was like "real musicians don't use light shows and effects either" so I have no idea what the hell this guy listens to or what bands he goes and sees play live but it can't be much of anything more than someone banging on something around a campfire near a cave somewhere
For me its quite easy: Are the tracks used to support and grade up / fill up the actual live perfomances of the musicians to somewhat near the album version - good. If tracks are used to mimic perfomances like some pop artists did hillariously funny in the past - not good.^^
Although there's a picky little Dosenknüppel inside me who thinks "why can't they just bring more musicians and a real orchestra on stage, it would be epic as hell", it should be clear that this would'nt be possible and affordable for the biggest part of bands/artists.
I think people don't want to loose their (selfmade?) magic illusions of perfect and unfailable musicians and try to defend it by any means.
I'm thinking of an interesting way to teach people about the benefit of tracks and playback could be to record a live show/song with and without those in comparison. Or even show people how a song from a album would sound without multi tracking and stuff, just the main tracks.
That's actually a cool idea. I may be able to reach out to a band I know that uses tracks and see if I can get the files for that, because I think the difference would really blow a lot of people's minds in terms of the "fullness" of the sound. All the bands I've ever toured with can play, absolutely no problem. But the tracks that are there are to beef up the sound, and if they were gone I think people would be surprised by how much of that full sound might be gone.
"why can't they just bring more musicians and a real orchestra on stage, it would be epic as hell"
a few bands have done that a few times at least, like epica, galneryus and dream theater but generally they use a backing track of only the orchestral part because an orchestra is a bit expensive to bring on tour.
most metal bands with synths uses programmed synth backing track instead of having someone play the synth live but, iron maiden even though they arent that heavy on synth use, they dont use any backing track at all, just floor wedges for monitoring their own sound and a touring session musician on synth for the songs needing it (such as seventh son of a seventh son)
@@Deilwynna "why can't they just bring more musicians and a real orchestra on stage, it would be epic as hell"
It would be hilarious* trying to fit a whole orchestra onto a stage in the clubs and places many bands really play in. Many bands play on small venues while on tour and the festivals that happen a few times are the only places where they could fit a larger orchestra with them. And then there's the costs involved..
Edit: *hilarious as in it would be physically impossible to fit that many musicians at same time on the stage.
and even IF bands do performances with a symphonic orchestra on stage - who do you see waving a baton at them? A conductor.
@@Deilwynna imagine being the one who has to justify paying two or three people (like a horn section) on a full tour for two or three songs.
4:00 aaaah that sound brings back some nostalgic feelings haha. As for the polyphia thing, that seems like an absolutely genius, clutch move. Like you I don't know the deep specifics, but it looks like a solid way to adapt in the moment and keep the show going. Its crazy that something as simple as click tracks can be controversial.
I have been a fan of The Warning for several years, and I can tell you that they make absolutely no secret of their use of click and backing tracks -- Pau, the drummer, even put out a video back in 2020 of what they use, Ableton Live 10 running on a laptop mounted next to her drums.
Pau is one of the best up-and-coming drummers of recent years IMO. Singing, songwriting, and drumming are all top class
They can however do a fine job without the computer if they have to, as they did with Kool Aid Kids the other night in Mexico City, when Ableton had “a mind of its own”.
@@markjames8664 Oh no question. It's just that throwing computer skills on top of everything else makes her a polymath in my book.
As a teen I couldn't play to a click or a backing track, so I would argue that clicks and tracks "kill the feel" of the music. I was posturing because I couldn't do it, which is the case with most people who complain about bands using backing tracks. Later, I learned to play to a metronome to record better albums. It was damn hard at first, but I learned. In my early twenties, the band I was in started using backing tracks to play live because it allowed us to sound fuller. Playing to a backing track was even more challenging to learn because I had to temper all that energy and adrenaline to stay on time , not speed up, and keep things tight. Point is, playing to a click, or a backing track is not easy. It's a skill that takes time and effort to develop, and I'd argue now that if you can't play to a click or a backing track, you're not a real musician.
People that say Bands that are using click/tracks are no musicians must be people that have no professional experience with music at all. As a Musician myself i can tell you a few facts about this:
1. If you dont have your own recording studio (which mosts bands dont have) you have to pay a Studio, often by hour or day. Using a Click Track to record makes it so much easier for everyone involved and you gain tons of time which saves you a tooooon of money.
2. Im a Drummer and so it's my job to keep time, which doesnt sound thaaat hard for someone who doesnt know but as Tank said, most other musicians in the band follow me for timing, and i want to add something: It's not just taking a lot of concentration to stay on the click in a live setting, it gets even harder when one of your bandmates gets a little off time cause if you just stay on the click in that case you will loose tons of dynamic, so my job becomes "reeling" that bandmate back into the timing. Which is like: I gotta Speed up / slow down slightly to get him back on my time and then slowly guide him back to the click and thats insanely difficult cause you have to know what time he went to and how to get back to the click. If you have Tracks running in the background, synths, backing vocals etc. You have just a few seconds to do that or it will sound off. You need so much focus for that but it's a cool feeling if you nail that.
3. When you write a Song you have a Vision how it sounds, how it feels. And sometimes you simply dont have enough musicians or isntruments in your band to completly achieve that, so adding synths or some additional vocals in backing-tracks for Live Performance is not "cheeping out" or making it "easy" for yourself, it actually makes it much harder to play live cause your margin of error slims down , and i can't stress that enough, MASSIVELY. If you dont use any of that and you for some reason slip of time... you just find a new time a few bpm faster or slower and 99% of the audience wont even notice. But also... it is something we musicians add for YOU guys, so we get the Feeling / Message, dynamics to you the listener in a more enjoyable way.
4. My exception would be: Songs that are patched together which sound super crazily skilled but you never can play it live cause you lack the skills to do so. Im not a big fan of that and that does definetly exist, but even that.. i wont really judge or say: thats not music! As long as it makes someone happy who cares?
So for me, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with using backing tracks or clicks. Especially clicks are soo important. Played a lot live without but i wouldnt want to miss clicks in studio scenarios. Thanks Tank for talking about this :)
100% they are if they use click tracks and pre record. I do performances as an actor in musicals, and I also perform as a haunted house actor in speaking roles. In musicals while singing you need to stay on not only key but on beat and one of the tricks I use is to listen to the orchestra to keep myself on track. You sing along with the beat that helps you keep time. If you start getting off beat it ruins the song, throws off the orchestra and can hurt the show.
In a haunted house, when you are in a speaking role you often have a preprogrammed room. You hit the timer when the group walks in and you have anywhere between 30 seconds to 2 minutes to fill with talking and acting while you wait for the preprogrammed items to go off, for instance a door slamming shut which keys you that you have 10 more seconds until the smoke blasts into the room which signals to start the end dialogue. If im off from ANY of those ques my dialogue, which is crafted around those ques to provide the best performance I can, falls apart and ruins the show.
TLDR; In the end being able to perform with a click track or backing tracks, and especially what these two dudes did here are commendable in my position and it 100% kept the show going.
Think about this, Electric Callboy has all those synth parts in their songs but no live synth player so they use those synth tracks live or else the songs fall flat without them while on top of that the drummer has a click in his ear to keep himself and the rest of the band on time.
Powerwolf has no Bassist.
One of their guitarists plays the bass in studio. This recording is then used un the album and also live as backing track.
Why didn't the hire a live bassist? Because the like the band and the chemistry within the band and don't want to change it.
As a software developer I learned that customers don't care about your code, they care about the product and the problems it solves. In the same way, people don't care about how fancy of a drummer you are, they care about the music. The haters don't understand that, that's why their stuff doesn't sell.
popular music has never been about how well you play an instrument, and the same sort of people have been whining about that for decades.
On the production side of things (the sound system and lighting) many higher end tours have the lighting changes controlled by a time code. This ensures that lighting cues happen at the exact right spot every night. Guitar effects changes can now be controlled by time code as well as pyro and video effects. It all has to sync up night after night. How does that happen? Every system on the same click, that AMAZING show you see and remember forever does not just accidentally happen. It takes many many talented and hard working people to make it happen. Not just the band.
Brings to mind a quote by Mickey in one of the Rocky movies;"For a 45 minute fight,you have to train 45 thousand minutes!!That goes for ALL of us;For a 2-4 hour show,we've trained for YEARS!
I kind of thought that I knew what in-ears were used for but wasn't really sure, so this was fascinating. I've been watching live bands since 1982 and don't see why anyone would have an issue with musicians using the latest technology, whatever that happens to be. Live music evolves.
It's not just for tracks actually. It may facilitate that but they also save your hearing. It used to be that volume wars would erupt on stage between guitar players and the other band members because the guitar players would make the case that they had to be loud to get the sounds they used but everyone else couldn't hear themselves and would also turn up. It got to be ridiculous where stage volumes would cause hearing loss. Guitar players would sometimes try guitar speakers put in isolation boxes with microphones inside but they don't sound very good. It did make it so they could have them as loud as they wanted to. Technology marches along however and now we have in-ear monitors and guitar gear that sounds good without the volume and the loudest thing on stage is the drums. Everyone gets to hear just what they want to hear at the vol;ume they want it.
Click tracks (and backing) have improved live shows by leaps and bounds! It’s always awesome to see a crew that can keep the wheels rolling in an instant and sometimes even step in seamlessly for a member if needed.
Love the behind the scenes man. Great show
How is this even a discussion? I thought every drummer plays on click, it's a very natural enhancement of your live performance. If anyone can't handle their parts, the click wouldn't make any difference, so calling it cheating is beyond me. As for Polyphia - precise groove is essential to their music, so I can understand if the drummer relies on click more.
Most do. Some really talented individuals do not. I am not dissing any on those that do. Do what you need to make the performance great. Danny Carrey of Tool is famous for not using a click track while maintaining odd tempos and shifting tempos exceedingly well, live
same discussion with using pedal triggers. as if they make you play 200bpm 16th without years of practice.
Pantera never used click. Slipknot w/ Joey never used clock either. You can tell because they modulate the tempo based on different parts of the song
Drummers are not really musicians. 😅
@@Tuck7326 Danny Carey has entered the chat lol
These talk videos where you can share your knowledge about all those behind the scenes / tech stuff of concerts are really interesting to listen to and I hope you're continuing to make videos like these :)
This is insane to hear, I’m not even a musician and I know that the syncopation needed to pull off album comparable performances has to be next level, especially for fucking Polyphia who are INSANELY talented and have a lot of bonkers difficult parts. How anyone can try to diminish the finesse this situation took to fix is beyond me, but that’s the world we’re living in lol.
Missed you a bunch while I was in Canada buddy, glad to be back to your content ❤️
When playing live, it's imperative that you are able to hear what you're playing. You lose the ability to hear, you lose the ability to play. It's just like any singer you've ever seen that goes wildly off pitch when their monitors aren't loud enough or their in-ear goes out or whatever. A click track is just another way for you to hear what you're doing, it doesn't make what you're doing easier. You still have to be able to play it.
Great topic! Looking forward to it!
This is why I love your channel. Thank you Master Tank for another lovely education time. Loved it and want to learn more.
Imagine telling Tuomas Holopainen that all his orchestral arrangements makes him a less musician because it's playback
I mean I tend to arrange a lot in the music I make as well so this topic is actually quite fun to follow
At least he plays all the keyboard synths himself hehe
Nightwish couldn't exactly take an orchestra and choir out on tour with them.
@Chris Wilkinson not every tour no. But I'm sure they could arrange a special tour for it. Other have done it, I don't see why it would be impossible
@@jarl_tormund Yes they could do it as a one off special show, I think Within Temptation did something like that a couple of years ago, but taking a full orchestra on tour would be very difficult and expensive.
@Chris Wilkinson I belive dimmu borgir did a mini tour with an orchestra, and played on Wacken as well
As a drummer myself, I 100% agree with you on the the click track! I mean you have the beat/groove already going on in your head, and then to follow along with a click, it is intense. It's like your trying to get both sides of your brain to go at the same time. Awesome info and video as usual Tank!! Hope to see you at Ft Wayne IN on Halloween with electric callboy. 🤘🤘
Storytime:
In the early 2000s i was assistent sound engineer at a decently large convention. As main act, we had Blood, a japanese visual metal band. Friday morning, time for their rehearsal and my sound engineer is gone to fix some shit. The Manager, their soundengineer and a translator pop up next to me at the FOH and ask me, if we have some space for their drummer. There was no drummer in my plans, there was no backline for a drummer, there was no mantion of a drummer anywhere, and so, i pannicked. The translator relayed my ramble to the manager and a short laugh later, i was handed their drummer, a mini disk player....
Well, the whole show was half playback and it was more about the show than about the music. They destroyed a few wedges and a base amp, ripped a sink out of the wall, and threw a Sennheiser cordless mic off the stage. The cleaners had fun with a gallon of theatre-blood on the old stage and security had to block off the gallery for suicide reasons.
The whole thing wasn't worth it in the end...
Aunt Edith cought a typo.
My Band and I are using clicktracks and our show kinda relies on them. Being only four people in the band, we cannot play synths, strings, third guitar tracks, FX like risers, bassdrops etc on our own. Clicktracks/Backingtracks are a natural enhancement of liveshows and everyone shitting on them clearly has not used them before.
The conductor analogy was amazing. Ended the whole argument for me. Well done, as always man!
Very informative video. Thanks, Tank
Another excellent and informative video again Tank. Would definitely like to see some of those people saying "he shouldn't need a click" to try to play a Polyphia drum part perfectly without any assistance.
So can we expect an Interview with a Roadie with Chris or Clay in the future?
I've had this discussion with some non-musician friends lately. We were talking about a band like Metallica, who back in the '90s when we all first saw them, they were playing at whatever tempo they feel like, but now because of the production elements of the show - lights, video wall, etc. - they HAVE to play everything in time to keep that show from, as you put it here, falling apart. That said, even being in a local band, the topic of using midi to automate my pedals has come up in conversation at band practice. We're already on IEMs, so it's not at all out of the realm of possibility for us, it's just a matter of if we want to do it or not.
You hit the nail so hard on the head. Every thought I had while watching this (timecode, cues, "what is a conductor") was all brought up. It's for the sake of consistency. I think another point that should be made is if you watch Studio vlogs...they're all recording to click tracks!
You should try to interview this legendary Chris!!! This content with the inside view of the music business is so tasty man!! Cheers from Chile!
Context is key. If you play a style that is more technical and want to be as precise as possible, click tracks/metronome/cues are a great way to keep yourself and the band on time. Some other styles lend themselves to being more open to sudden shifts/tempo changes/starts and stops so it’s better to play without them!
You already addressed the member thing with some studio parts 😂 Can’t all be Slipknot with 9 dudes!
I remember that Dave Grohl telling a story about Kurt and the producers of Nevermind made him record with a click because he kept wasting time and tape because he was all over the place. Now he’s one of the greatest drummers of all time.
Even Lars Ulrich is a better drummer than Dave Grohl.
As with almost every video I watch from you, I learned something.
Artists in Polyphia are at the top of the musician's food chain. Critics of their abilities cannot be taken seriously.
Appreciate your giving props to the tech. That was incredible.
I didn’t want to comment as you successfully covert all and explained it well. But when you mentioned ‚what is a conductor do?‘ … well done! Most people don’t even know or realize that.
Keep on the good work!
Fantastic explanation, Tank. I knew a lot of this stuff, but I had not thought about how much a live show would fall apart without the tracks. Talk about an "Oh shit" moment. If anyone thinks that it's easy playing to a click, they obviously have never tried to play with a metronome. No matter how skilled, that can be a major challenge. In Polyphia's case their music is so complex, with each part have minute spaces where another part fits, would just fall apart if the tempo fluctuates much at all. I was going to make the conductor comment, glad you said it.
This is funny as hell man. As someone who went to school for audio and learned even more on the job, I have learned that a lot of people who play without the click leave the room while the engineer fixes their timing in editing😅😅. In this case - I would view this as a testament of exactly how good these guys are at knowing time and how to keep it. Depending on the setup - audio latency can have a massive impact on the performance when playing with tracks. Not to mention the speed at which different people process information - i.e. reaction time.
Of course they are - in my experience, drummers who struggle playing on click are not the ones their respective band can rely on.
Totally agree.
I played drums in a band in college and we played very syncopated funky music. We made a studio recording of a couple of songs on one occasion and I had to play with a click track on a very funky song and let me tell you, it wasn’t easy for me to stay on time with the click when other instruments are playing on the off beats. We had to do several takes because I kept getting off the click. Anyone who says playing to a click track is easy doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Enjoyed your video, very informative! Thanks! 😎
Same dude - first time recording - and youre like: yeah this should be easy, i can do that with a click tra... woahwtfas a ad ad a
@@jackfromthejungle7538 Right, NOT easy! 🤣
Yep, I always had a hard time recording to a click too.
And in 12 years playing drums I never managed to actually use it live, although it also was because due to the lack of necessity. We luckily always played all of our instruments live, so when I was a bit off (and trust me, that always happens when you're playing live) the others could adjust on the spot.
I could always hear that on recordings afterwards, but if you don't have to rely on programmed parts at least it doesn't matter too much in the moment.
@@Gringomaniac And it's not necessarily a bad thing either. It can make the music more... live. As long as it's not too much of course 😂
But bands like Nightwish etc... the sound without backing tracks would be SO small.
I read that Def Leppard records along with a drum machine,then Rick goes in and lays down the drums tracks last.I would imagine there's a click track going on as well,but they didn't mention THAT.I wish I woulda heard about THAT technique,cuz I recorded a CD by myself,and it would've been a lot better laying down my drums tracks AFTER I recorded all the other tracks.Good Ole Hindsight!It still came out pretty badass though.😜.
Switched to backing tracks a few months ago. Our drummer always played with a clicktrack. I have to say for me personally (and I was really not a fan of the idea of backing tracks) my playing has improved playing with backing tracks and in ear monitoring. And really, the guys from Polyphia deserve a lot of credit for pulling this off.
I don’t know man, I’ve got this opinion I formed from thin air with no prior experience and I’m 100% sure it’s fool proof. *rolls eyes into oblivion*
😂😂😂
It's cool to hear an explanation of how the tracks actually work. I absolutely cannot help writing orchestral arrangements into the music I write, and if I ever have the opportunity to perform it live I would absolutely need tracks.
But I know that I can't follow a click. Never could. Not when I played trumpet in highschool symphonic band and jazz band, not now on any of my instruments. I CAN follow a drummer. I figured that the drummer alone could have the click to keep the band in time with the tracks, but it's cool to have some confirmation from someone who knows what he's talking about.
Tank 2:35: "I could sit here and explain that forever..." Please do, that sounds awesome.
I'm usually here for the reactions, but I love this knowledge! Thank you.
Thanks for watching!
Great video and in depth explanation. Not only help IMs with the tracks but they also removed the need for stage speakers/monitors blasting the sound back to the musicians and singers so that they can hear the song that is being played. I absolutely agree that playing to a click track and having backing tracks doesn’t take anything away from the band itself if used carefully to fill gaps. (I am not talking about some artists that use full tracks and just mimic on stage). There are some recording of IMs available on YT btw (sorry, I only know the Babymetal ones xd) that you can check out!
The in-ears are also important for avoiding the hearing loss that used to be almost inevitable for live rock bands.
Once upon a time, there was a little band from England called Queen. They wrote a song, that is considered a masterpiece of rock music: Bohemian Rhapsody. They used backing tracks for this song on live shows. And nobody accused them of being not real musicians.
Multi-layered vocals need that stuff to be performed live. Same goes for instrumental and atmospheric tidbits like e.g. waves, cannon fire etc.
I liked your throwback to the conductors, should put things in perspective for some.
Love stuff like this on your channel. Not just music reactions, but also informative content.
You're the man, man!
Great explanation Tank!
Many thx for your opinion and point of professional view... unfortunately internet has given the possibility to anyone to express themselves, and this is not always a good, because ignorance reigns supreme.
there is so much that goes into a big show more then most will ever know. this is a great explanation of how the click tracks actually work. Me personally I do not use them nor does anyone I have been playing with over the years. I think the problem is that some musicians rely to much on the backing tracks for there music and that is were people start getting there negative opinions from.
Wow, you can tell that all these people who talk trash about that Polyphia incident or Clay for that matter dont know shit about playing drums or more specifically actually PERFORMING LIVE.
From my experience time works different when youre on stage - youre in an extreme rush, for me at least, everything is super slowed down because im so excited and on high alert. So in the past when i didnt play with a click track i was always wayyy too fast, and crucial moments where timing matters always got messed up.
And it was actually a challenge to learn to guide my band through the songs with a metronome on my in-ears while still listening to what my mates where playing. So no, playing with a click track definitely isnt Easy Road... its not cheating, its a skill set imo
And that thing with polyphia is actually unbelieveable to me, like - having a literal second hand metronome on your LEG? what? I really wanna see all these "online drum masters" perform a polyphia song under those circumstances
Thank You! Thank you! Sorry I'm late to the game with the comment. It is great to see the explanation of what tracks are out in the open, even if it is still controversial in some circles for reasons unknown. I didn't know about Polyphia before, so to see how they recovered when the monitor mix dropped out was awesome. I have heard of something similar happening before, though I can't recall who, when, or exactly how they recovered. I'll admit, I was naive about tracks when I was younger and started playing metal in the mid 80s, and I grew up in Connecticut, US, where Milli Vanilli was outed, so the general opinion on tracks was a bit harsher then, and I only had clicks in the studio. I can vaguely recall a time when having a triggered drum kit wasn't always accepted. Of course now it's not even a second though, especially as I play Industrial, where it's practically a necessity as the bands in the genre often don't have a full line-up, and so much is layered on top. Just from my own perspective, I'm in a two person project, where the vocalist, who writes some of the keyboard and percussion tracks, doesn't play an instrument onstage, and I go straight to the board switching between guitar, bass, and keys live. No monitors is a nightmare, since relying on the slapback from the house can be difficult in small venues, never mind larger ones or outdoor (no monitors outdoors suuuuuuks). There are a couple keyboard parts I just can't play live at the moment because we haven't transitioned to in-ears yet, and there's no way I'd be able to hit the mark to start a song without a click to count me in. Other times it plays in to the writing process if I know that it will be played live, such as bass and guitar parts. Even with the Southern Goth project I'm currently writing material to start (in the vein of Fields of the Nephilim) and hope to have a full line-up with, I wouldn't think of playing without at least a click even if there are no synth tracks so that patch changes and eventually lighting can be pre-programmed and I don't have to think about the pedal dance. Not to say playing without one can't be done if you have no pre-recorded tracks, nothing programmed, and a full line-up (did it with a 9-piece Mr. Bungle style band years ago), but if given the option, I'll take the click.
This seems to be an aspect of live performances little people know about, surprisingly enough. Of all my friends only 1 or 2 I talked to about performing live were aware that click tracks even exist. So with that in mind, it's to be expected that it's unclear to a lot of people what those tracks do exactly. It's important that people know that click tracks are actually just there to keep everyone, including all backing tracks, in sync. Especially in larger venues it's easy to go out of sync because of delay/echo/reverb. If you want a 100% solid performance, it's practically a must. If people realized this, there wouldn't be a discussion.
wait until they learn about MIDI key spikes 💀
Thank you very much for this video. When I discovered my gods of metal (Orbit Culture), I was wondering how it was possible to play live with all this tracks. I suspected it was very hard. Also I remember, my music teacher from primary school saying, that playing with tracks is more demanding. Because people always can slow down for example, but tracks can't (at least for now;)).
So thanks for all the details, explanation. Great video as usual.
Great video! I think it would be awesome to get the actual drum tech's POV. Maybe he would be interested to explain what happened in an episode of "Interview with a roadie" oder "The Back Lounge Podcast"? I bet he'd be a great conversation partner.
Another educational video. I knew some bits about backing tracks and clicks. I however didnt know they used them as much as they did
Good rant, Tank! Well explained. The example of a symphonic metal band was a good one. If the band (and fans) want the orchestral parts in the live shows, tracks are the only way to go. It would be financially and logistically impossible to tour otherwise.
I appreciate it when bands don’t try to hide the fact that they use tracks. During one of Band-Maid’s online shows, the backing vocal track at the beginning of “Choose Me” got de-synced from the click track somehow, and the band just chatted with each other and interacted with comments from the audience feed for like 10 minutes until it was fixed. Afterward, they uploaded a clip of the incident to their website.
They said it might be the only time they've stopped in the middle of a song in a live performance, which is remarkable if correct. I initially wondered why they didn't just do the song without the backing vocals straight away, but it ended up being a great moment in the show, so they definitely got the decision right.
@@kicorse I know that when some of their gear, including the sample deck, got sent to the wrong airport, the other members who don’t normally sing stepped up and did backing vocals.
Im a drummer myself and I think click tracks are completely fine. Our whole entire job is to keep time, and this just helps us to make sure we're doing our job correctly. I'd much rather have a fellow drummer using a click track live than have them off-beat and messing up everyone else + ruining the song
I seem to remember that drummers that could actually do an entire show without support of something like a click were rare even when the technology wasn't there. So, to all who want "real musicians only", they will be very short on options.
And as Tank says, it's not about "real" it's about show. If a show becomes better by using some support, I think that is fine.
But if it means I am paying for live music and I am listening to a studio recording, that is not fine. I can listen to studio recordings at home.
It's a matter of finding the balance. And I can totally see how the balance has to be heavily towards the live side. But still, if you want it all "real", you are likely to end up with very little choices, or shows that totally suck. Pick your poison.
Great video, the Roadie reacted awesomely, huge respect. Also one of my go to quotes is " There is nothing so dangerous as an opinion born from ignorance".
Great video and explanation as always Tank. Still find it odd that Till Lindemann rarely seems to wear monitors. See him wearing them when they are on the small stage in the crowd but rarely on the main stage. Do you know why that’d be? Cheers 🙂 B
A long time ago my band played in a setting where the drummer couldn't hear us at all and his monitors went out, so he just played from memory and we struggled to keep up with his tempo because it was all over the place. We sure would have loved in-ear monitors and a click.
Just binge watching all the tank videos today lol. Thanks tank for all the entertainment bro.
Hell I use a click and tracks for busking in the subway.
Playing Mother and watching people look around and wonder where the hell that organ is coming from as it starts fading in is priceless.
Amen, man! Click-Tracks and backing tracks are sooo common these days… I don’t get the arguments „against“ them. Big respect for Polyphia and their drum tech!🤘
Great video man.. Did you get a new camera? For some reason your magestic beard looks even CRISPIER
Yeah, got it a few weeks ago.
I had no idea. Fascinating
Queen used to do the middle of Bohemian Rhapsody prerecorded in concert and the band wasn't even playing at the time.Never heard any complaints about that at the time because no one expected them to do it live.
I've been going to metal shows since about 2003/2004, and noticed very early on, the more technically proficient/proggy bands tended to have a drummer with a Mac Book (even then) set up next to their drum kit, for the click track.
Why anyone would have an issue with someone playing to what essentially amounts to a per-song metronome is BEYOND me.
Late to the convo.
I was in a band for a long time. My drummer played with a click basically the whole time. It was an old school set up. Dr beat into a pair of in-ears.
Nothing could ever get to the audience/ main pa.
Then after recording our album we used some tracks. We were a 2 guitar, 1 bass, drums, and dedicated singer heavy rock band. No one played keys on stage so we added keys and some sound effects to the mix. Nothing that would end a show if we pulled the plug.
Our drummer then moved from a dr beat to a hard drive w a remote setup. He had a mix of click and tracks and he had the kill switch. If something ever got janky he could stop all the extra stuff without stopping the performance. He would also get a stage monitor with instruments and vox. Dude was juggling a lot. Benjhe is the shit.
I was doing pro tools pb on a feature film, the click went by by on the first take.
I auditioned the song, got a good idea on tempo,
Put my talk back mic on the console, and with my sharpie tapped out the intro.
No one knew except my boss .
I was with him for one oscar win and one nomination.
All he said was “ cool”, went off to craft service.
Love your show, but get in the IA, and make films.
Better life.
I’m retired in Thailand.
I saw Sound Stream demo in ABC Dunhill 1978.
8 bit 4K
Show was called “ The Help”, greenwood Mississippi.
Shot in a country church where Robert Johnson is buried.☮️
Hey Tank. Awesome vid dude. Say, I don't know if you have or not, but will you ever do a tech video on an electric guitar with a Floyd Rose floating bridge? I'd love to learn about that since that's what I use in my band. I'd sure like to save some money DIY instead of dropping a ton of cash at Guitar Center or something. Keep on rockin dude.
I saw Queensryche Operation Mindcrime. They had lots of clips and other audio from the album. And it added to the show.
I got an idea.....how bout we all just evolve as well!! Great rant right to the point!! Thanks Tank, you're awesome 👌
Anyone who says “real musicians don’t use click tracks” has never played a show bigger than their mom and grandma in the living room.
Wooow! Learned só much from this! Thanks :-)
Heya Tank, glad to see you’re still up and running. Loved this video and it got me thinking… how many people who bitch about these tracks listen to Nightwish 🤔? Naturally they have an orchestra and choir backstage doing their parts 😏
I tell you what is a good discussion to have. I was talking to a friend of mine who is a world class - most metal heads have heard of him producer and he told me that 80% of drums you hear on new records by rock and metal bands are programmed and not live studio takes. Now I know that it happens but I had no idea it was so much percentage wise. I told him he could’ve told me when we worked together 14 years ago and saved me around £2K!!! Although tbf the experience and fond memories of recording at Monnow Valley will stay with me forever 😀🤘🤘🤘
As someone in a band that uses clicks and tracks etc, it brings our live shows to a whole other level. Firstly, we don't have a bassist, so we record that ourselves and put that on tracks, we also have a lot of ambient, synth type sounds which we also put on there. It also helps as our style of music is very technical, so it does help to have a click going in our ears. But we can still play the music without it all, flawlessly, and we have done multiple times, but the addition of the bass and all the other noises just takes the performance up a notch and it really makes us sound better.
I think I'd like to go one step further and say that not only do I know that these musicians can play without a metronome, but I also don't really care if they can. If the drummer is an incredible drummer, sounds amazing but can only do that with a metronome, then guess what, that person is still an amazing drummer. I just really don't think it matters if a musician can or can't play without a track, because they can still play the music correctly and that's what matters in the end. You find the same people that complain about tracks are often the same people that complain that bands don't do "intimate" shows anymore when they move to larger venues as they get more popular. Can you imagine wanting Lorna Shore to play a small intimate club gig, but also bring on a full orchestra to play the interludes for Pain Remains? Bands should absolutely use all the tools available to make the show the best it can possibly be, I'd rather have a great show than a "pure" show.
I play drums as a hobby, and I do not use a click if it is not needed. In the situation you are describing, I completely understand the use of a click and/or backing tracks. You described the situation very well, and you were on point. I will admit, there have been times when my timing has wandered during a song, but that does occur. Best example of someone with almost perfect timing is a friend of mine who is a much more proficient drummer than myself. His band played a live broadcasted show. For the fun of it, I used the video and put the actual song from their recording. To put this in perspective, they did use a click in the studio for recording purposes. Live, they did not. The end results were that he was almost perfectly in time live to the original studio performance. There were a few times were the timing drifted, but in the end, it was played as on their record. Even though I witnessed that, I still believe that certain bands use a click track in the ways and the purposes you so eloquently stated.
I was gonna say as well. Click tracks and programmed changes really equip smaller bands for a bigger production on a budget.
Well spoken Tank !
Blows my mind that people would say anything negative about clay using a track KNOWING how intricate their music is.
One thing im guilty of back in our cover band was having one ear piece playing the track back cause i struggled with remembering lyrics and honestly it helped a lot.
(This was a couple years ago, it was a local fun thing we did)
But ik a good chunk of people would also call it cheating
I love your videos on topics that you know so much about. I've been a musician for years and years and years, I've even been a roadie for som of the biggest metal bands in finland, and I hear the same old argument from all purists. "we do it old school". Well fuck that, embrace technology and make your life easier with it. Good points my man, respect.
So glad you brought up the conductor thing. "Real musicians don't need a click track"... ok champ, 123 bpm Andante moves into "Presto" but there's no denoted bpm on the sheet. What's the appropriate tempo change? Who decides that? Are all 100+ orchestra players just supposed to know the tempo change from 123 BPM Andante to whatever the composer wants Presto to be but didn't write in any new tempo? Is it a ramp up in tempo or is it a sudden change?
There's a big difference in using a metronome to keep time in a performance versus a track that IS the performance.
And that drum tech doing what he did is an amazing example of on the spot outside the box problem solving. Pretty insane.
Are musicians that "use a conductor" really musicians?
Are adults that rely on alarm clocks to wake up for work really adults?
Are Content Creators that use free platforms with free infinite uploads really Content Creators?
Are guitar players that use electricity really guitar players?
Are singers that use microphones really singers?
Okay, I made my point.
I literally used your first point as an example in this video. 😂
That is a awesome comment. Kudos to you.😁👌
@@TankTheTech Haha, nice. Looking forward to the video. I am kind of shocked the in-ears don't fail more often than they do. The big productions must use Duracell 🤷♂️😂
"Are singers that use microphones really singers?"
Opera singers generally don't use microphones. If you ever stand next to an opera singer when she cuts loose, you will never forget it. Opera singers learn specific techniques (singer's formant, squillo) to let their voice cut through the orchestra and be clearly audible WITHOUT amplification.
ua-cam.com/video/VB7lYoVbiHM/v-deo.html
i like the arlarmclock quote best , must mean that im a child at hart 🤣🤣
I was reading lots of crap on Reddit about danny worsnop from asking Alexandria saying he uses tracks and lip syncs to the screaming parts and only sings the clean parts live. No matter what I think he’s amazing at both but in my opinion I don’t care if it’s true or not in reality it helps save his voice from those harsh vocal parts and they were amazing live no matter what
my band is a singer, guitarist, drummer, and samples for synths, basses, backing vocals, and electronic drums. i control the samples in ableton with an APC and i control the tempo changes in the click tracks. people assume this makes us play perfectly. i’m just glad our drummer and guitarist are so amazing coz i mess up a /LOT/ xD
7:30 Biggest Bro award goes to this guy. What a legend.
Seriously. Haha
I love it when I go to a concert and at some point everyone is standing around the drumkit improvising, smile at each other because it’s great, or having a “what are you doing?”-smile. I know I won’t see that when I go to Nightwish in November, but I will learn to live with that 😉.
I do remember the first time I saw The Black Keys with 2 guest musicians I was a little bit disappointed because one of the things I loved about them was that they knew each other so well, they could take a song in a total different direction after only looking at each other.
Sometimes hearing a totally different live version of a song can be amazing and sometimes a little disappointing.
I think backing tracks don’t leave a lot of room for things like that, and that is ok, no matter how much I like it sometimes. 🙂
I think a click track might leave some room for improvisation?
Hey Tank have a question. Do you think, that backing tracks and so on has an huge effect on the live situation to the audience to interact with themK? Because you can't do some special singalongs longer than planed or how is this? And thanks for your clear english because for me as Swiss guy it's perfect to understand. Thanks for that man
That’s a good question. We have multiple versions of songs depending on set length. The sing-along space for extended versions of songs is absolutely possible with the utilization of tracks. Essentially you leave the click going for the designated number of bars you want the crowd to join in on and then bring the tracks back in for the close. I also like doing an intimate intro with the crowd singing along before starting tracks. Another possibility is having the tracks end after the final chorus and doing an extended outro.
It honestly seems like people just got a glimpse behind the curtain and they don't like the shattered illusion that their idols have flaws. News flash, they are only human like everyone else.
The other problem is a lot of the metal hipsters (yes I will refer to them as that and they are holding the genre back) who have to nitpick everything and will only listen to a band until it becomes mainstream and then they complain that the band sold out and so on, these are the guys complaining trying to act like them being a fan of someone fallable is just the death of the genre, and I agree with you Tank. They need to grow the hell up.
I get so tired of people saying bands sell out just because they get popular or become mainstream. To me sell out means you become a asshole and don't care about the fans anymore.
I wish this video would go viral to help explain all the confusion and to shut tons of people up.
Very informative commentary. I am pretty sure Iron Maiden were not using click tracks back in 1980-1981 era. I have a bootleg on CD from the 1981 US tour (that show was played at midway-type place) where they screwed up the song Iron Maiden at the end of the set. They had to stop and re-start the song. It is extremely rare to see Maiden screw up like this.
It would scare the shit out of me every show to know that everything can go south in a heartbeat if one band or crew member's in ear system takes a dump or one laptop spontaneously reboots. Tying all the cues and lighting and what have you into that one system when there are no do overs... that's courageous. I've even sat and pondered how I would fail safe my Kemper if I ever started gigging again. Another thought that you did not cover was that "back in my day" ( I recently turned 62) not only did this technology not exist but it seems like bands wrote and recorded music that they could pull off live with the live band that they had. Maybe it didn't sound exactly the same but that is what created the "studio version" versus the "live version" of a song.
this was educational . thanks