The link between Osiris and the separation of the pieces of Sets body is sooo interesting, wish this was the actual story and Osiris touched a artifact like Savuthuun and got his memories back.... Instead we have trash final shape story with the vanguard leaders crying around a fire the whole time.
Its amazing to come back to this video after the final shape and see how close your original predictions were to the actual ending. Just goes to show how well you reseached this topic well done bravo. My thoughts on this video is we are still unsure if other disciples were directly givin with light besides for nezarec in lightfall, and you were completely correct about the ancient race being the witness as we would come to know.
I'm coming almost at the launch at Lightfall, on Ocrober of 2022, for future reference But, with the knowledge we gather on Witch Queen, I think the numerous voices are the Witness "heads" at the same time, so that's why he uses "we" for every sentence he uses. I don't think the Witness is The Winnower since Rhulk said, "he's not the darkness itself, but wears it like a cloak". Also, the Disciples work as tenants of the Witness, not only like Rhulk and Nezarec, even Oryx to an extension, as beings who "comune with the Darkness" and lived to tell the story and keep their way of massacre and bloodshed. Obs: I'm not fluent nor skilled in english, in any way, so I apologize for any misspelled words
You were right when you said that the winnover and the pyramids separated. Now with Witch Queen we have The Witness who controls the pyramids but just like savathun said.. He is not the darkness but wields it like a cloak
I like this theory a lot. It doesn’t make sense for the darkness to have ships with walkways, corridors, and STAIRS if they are just “energy” and don’t have a physical form. However I wouldn’t put it passed bungie to overlook that fact and just put these physical walkways to create an environment for us to interact with in a video game lol.
The Darkness is powerful enough to warp reality and create nightmare visions of enemies we've killed, terraform planets and control gravity. I wouldn't put it past them to be able to generate walkways inside for us as they please.
With the recent revelations of Banshee 44 being Clovis Bray, i was considering that many of the characters we have at this time could be one's that have been previously mentioned from the past. Saint-14 is a exo, but could he also be a version of Rasputin? Osiris has his name and is very much a mystic.. loner... he does things at times unconventionally.. the same as the drifter with his snake symbols (motes in gambit to.. little pyramids of death).... could it be that the light has chosen people from the ''other side of the board' and claimed them for herself? Could it be that most of these players are from this ancient time?
Genius idea. Because you also have Uldren being a Guardian as well. Thing is all these characters became Guardians at different times, and the Ghosts were all made at once, with their Guardians all being assigned to them. So unless Bungie is screwing around with continuity, that means The Gardener knew about Uldren, which means they somewhat know the future. That’s such a good idea though I’ll have to think about it :).
@@Venextron Yea, feel free to use this and just drop me a mention. I am doing my Degree in English literature and i can see soo many almost poetic symmetry being used within Destiny lore. I would also look at a couple different theologies too.. the symbol of the snake reminds me of lucifer or the snake from the book of genesis. This in particular reminds me of the drifter, as he is a light barer who does not follow the dogma of the light which is similar to Lucifer who was an angel who rebelled against god or in the Drifters case he refuses to follow blindly and seeks what is outside the the light. He always goes the opposite direction of everyone else. Philosophical and psychological influences such as Carl Jung seem to be within the lore aswell (Anima and Animus). Uberboyo has good content on Jung. I also wonder if the Exo, Vex and The traveller are all related somehow. Is the vex liquid a sort of soul pool, that each vex used too be a person. Is the traveller collecting souls too? for what reason? consolidation of power and back up? It must have a reason for wanting CB to make the exo's or influence him into doing so because he has like the drifter.. other methods. This is me just brain storming but something to consider. My twitter is @Kitttallica should you want to DM with any questions or ideas you may want some extra advice on. My own youtube channel is mostly literature based. Writing in Destiny is really really good and i am fascinated by it so i am here to help should you need it. :)
A lot of the info in the video still stands today, but in terms of making videos, it was one of if not the first one I ever did. It's definitely outdated and needs a redo.
I've seen your more recent witch queen videos on this theory and mystery but can't remember after rewatching this if you went into much detail about the witness other than him being a pawn so to speak and not the Winnower. But with the Witness's appearance even though I'm aware it could be explained by simply having the ability to appear however he chooses or what not. Do you think it's a coincidence or a major hint to even more evidence of this theory given the fact that he appears to be identical in design to humans. Other than some very obvious exaggerations and changes as someone like the witness would go through I imagine since he looks human just a little goofier.
Also something to note I went and checked kolobaev's work on art station just the other day and unless I'm navigating the site incorrectly or something I no longer see released, but blocked or blurred art. Was wondering if you knew about this and if he did take them down maybe and was wondering why? Could be far fetched but and we will see one day if this turns out to be true but maybe it's because of the series you made putting a spotlight on it? Edit: nevermind found out the other images that were blurred were on his own website.
you said the k1 artifact was left by the pyramid race but clovis used that artifact to track down the location of clarity on europa, which is a darkness artifact right?
So i am half way through and basically what you are saying is... We have the light barers.... the awoken ....and the people of the Darkness..... interesting...
It wouldn't be the first time that an enemy faction in a Bungie games lore used singular and plural nouns to refer to themselves or were described as such by others. The Precursors/ Flood from Halo, and the W'rkncacnter both have that in common. In the case of the Precursors/ Flood this is because they ultimately form a compound intelligence called the Gravemind/ Primordial - which has been called "the darkness" in at least three instances in Halo lore. So the Precursors are plural because that is their form when they are described as individuals, but their compound intelligence is referred to as the Primordial or Gravemind. Interestingly the nicknames given to the Gravemind in the Forerunner Halo novels: " Primordial" and "timeless one", are probably references to the opening sentence of the following Marathon quote: "In primordial space, timeless creatures made waves. These waves created us and the others. Waves were the battles, and the battles were waves. Fleeing all W'rkncacnter, Yrro and Pthia settled upon Lh'owon. " And of course the last part of the sentence appears in the book of sorrows in reference to the Darkness. If you get the sense that this is just a tip of the iceberg of similarities between the Darkness, and the Precursors/ Flood from Halo or the W'rkncacnter, you're not wrong. But then again even if there was something behind this door, things could change.
The Nezarec's Sin ornament Afraid of the Dark is designed to look like a snake. The head is between the horns, and the horns almost from a hood like a cobra. This leads me and a friend of mine to believe that this ornament is what Nezarec's helmet actually looked like in his time. And the default appearance is just a repaired version by whoever discovered it. Edit: I now believe it was restored by Drifter, when he visited Nezarec's tomb and found either a drawing or statue of Nezarec wearing this helmet. Otherwise, how would anyone know what it looked like? The ornament was released in Forsaken.
I don’t know. But the more I dig into the Nine, the more suspicious I’m beginning to get. I plan on making a theory video similar to this called Project Needle, and that will be exclusively based on the Nine. Love the theory man!
Yeah when he said that his Egyptian friend "must've been illiterate" I was like, "Uhhhhh, you know that people don't use hieroglyphs anymore, right?" lmao
Hello Venextron. I would reply to your post, but for some reason I'm not able to. My question is: Are you saying that the Ancient Egyptians were the "guardians" of the Winower, and that the ancient pyramids were really the pyramids we see in each planet? And were the "gods" they were worshipping more likely humans who were turned into guardians, and were only regarded as such because they could die and come back to life, like guardians can? Or that theres a different race only inspired by the ancient egyptians to build the architectures that we see now?
That’s a really good question! I think that the Ancient Egyptians were the civilisation given a Golden Age thousands of years ago by the Gardener. Their leaders were a handful of individuals that were the first “Guardians”. So they didn’t have Ghosts, were always alive and were each their own class. The Pyramid Ships are a combination of their Ancient Egyptian Architecture and the technological knowledge given during their Golden Age. The race now is split into two categories I believe. Gods and followers. I don’t know how many of the pantheon are left, but they are worshiped by the others. The followers are like cultists. That’s all I really know. Hope it helped!
Two things work against this theory: In the lore book where the Darkness speaks to us, it outright SAYS "I had to simulate your minds to communicate with you", heavily implying that it would otherwise be incapable of doing so, and secondly that these entities, Darkness included, began their story as we know it on Fundament, long before humanity even evolved.
First of all, if the lore book you're referring to is "Unveiling", there is no mention of the Darkness saying that it simulated our minds to communicate with us. If you're talking about a different one please let me know. At the same time, Fundament is a location within our universe, and the lore clearly states that the Winnower and the Gardener created all universes, not that they came from one. Am I saying this proves me right? Absolutely not, but I either unfortunately don't understand what you mean (it's possible), or the mentioned examples are incorrect.
@@Venextron I don't quite remember where it was, but there was lore where the darkness essentially said something along the lines of "I have simulated your minds to speak to you, and have understood your morals. By your morals, We are the purest evil" or something like that and goes on to explain how it sees itself like the Winter. I may be misremembering but I'm fairly certain that's the case And we know the Darkness was at least *present* on Fundament over 13 billion years ago thanks to the Books of Sorrow. Point was that they massively predate the Earth and Humanity. Edit: Fairly certain it was the dialogue from Eris in the Intervention missions
@@noabsolutelynot3660 one minute fact that I find interesting that could pertain to this (albeit, rarely) is that a certain hive god blatantly stated that the BoS are full of lies and not to be trusted. Now whether this is a classic Savathun blunder, or what would be more interesting and equally unlikely is that she’s telling the truth. Now this would turn the entire hive dynamic on its head.
@@casualbowloframen77 Even if they're full of lies, we can be sure of two things: 1. The Hive originated on a planet 2. That planet had the Worm Gods, and hence the Darkness. Otherwise they had no way of actually leaving their planet unless they have some lost technology, which frankly just doesn't sit right with the theme and makes the story unnecessarily complex. They had to have darkness to exist as long as they have, and they couldn't travel about to grow so powerful with the sword Logic without it. Remember, leaving one solar system is a Herculean task for even the most advanced Golden age ships. They've travelled across several.
i don’t get how your theory of them being human at one point is solely based off of something that hasn’t even been put in the game. concept art made long before D2 ever released should not be counted as something that’s canon. great video but i truly do not understand how you can base your theory off of that when there hasn’t been a single sign of it in the game.
I actually disagree that there have been no signs of it in game, as I have a video up and and video I'm working on now that shows the Pyramids saying the name Sekhmet. At the same time, the core of it stands. How could a race, that is so heavily inspired by Ancient Greece and Egypt, to the point where there's Hieroglyphics in the concept art, human gods in the sentences they speak, forges for human weapons in their ships, humanoid figures in their concept art, and who take on the appearance of humans in the written lore (Shadowkeep final cutscene, Kentarch 3 lore, and the last time we saw Brother Vance in the lore) be on the Moon potentially thousands of years ago if they were not Human? If they weren't human at least at some stage, they why have give them so many ties to humanity? Btw I'm not saying this proves they were human, I'm just explaining why it makes sense.
This is extremely loose and far fetched and ignores the majority of the darkness’ lore in favore of this cherry-picked narrative. While it is certainly interesting, the game without a doubt is NOT employing this narrative.
Finding this collection of videos is like knowing the final shape
Not all of it is relevant now but some of it still holds up.
The link between Osiris and the separation of the pieces of Sets body is sooo interesting, wish this was the actual story and Osiris touched a artifact like Savuthuun and got his memories back.... Instead we have trash final shape story with the vanguard leaders crying around a fire the whole time.
Even though this video is a couple years old...it explains so many things me and my nephew were literally just questioning. Thanks so much for this.
Its amazing to come back to this video after the final shape and see how close your original predictions were to the actual ending. Just goes to show how well you reseached this topic well done bravo. My thoughts on this video is we are still unsure if other disciples were directly givin with light besides for nezarec in lightfall, and you were completely correct about the ancient race being the witness as we would come to know.
I'm coming almost at the launch at Lightfall, on Ocrober of 2022, for future reference
But, with the knowledge we gather on Witch Queen, I think the numerous voices are the Witness "heads" at the same time, so that's why he uses "we" for every sentence he uses.
I don't think the Witness is The Winnower since Rhulk said, "he's not the darkness itself, but wears it like a cloak". Also, the Disciples work as tenants of the Witness, not only like Rhulk and Nezarec, even Oryx to an extension, as beings who "comune with the Darkness" and lived to tell the story and keep their way of massacre and bloodshed.
Obs: I'm not fluent nor skilled in english, in any way, so I apologize for any misspelled words
You were right when you said that the winnover and the pyramids separated. Now with Witch Queen we have The Witness who controls the pyramids but just like savathun said.. He is not the darkness but wields it like a cloak
I will!
I like this theory a lot. It doesn’t make sense for the darkness to have ships with walkways, corridors, and STAIRS if they are just “energy” and don’t have a physical form.
However I wouldn’t put it passed bungie to overlook that fact and just put these physical walkways to create an environment for us to interact with in a video game lol.
The Darkness is powerful enough to warp reality and create nightmare visions of enemies we've killed, terraform planets and control gravity.
I wouldn't put it past them to be able to generate walkways inside for us as they please.
I NEVER KNEW THAT GUY HAD 3 EXTRA CONCEPT ARTS FOR DESTINY 2 LOCKED, THEY MUST'VE BEEN FOR THESE DARKNESS CREATURES OR WHATEVER AHHH
Who knows what he has hidden away!
I dig how much work you put into this and I'm loving your conclusions. Looking forward to see what happens in the coming seasons!
With the recent revelations of Banshee 44 being Clovis Bray, i was considering that many of the characters we have at this time could be one's that have been previously mentioned from the past. Saint-14 is a exo, but could he also be a version of Rasputin? Osiris has his name and is very much a mystic.. loner... he does things at times unconventionally.. the same as the drifter with his snake symbols (motes in gambit to.. little pyramids of death).... could it be that the light has chosen people from the ''other side of the board' and claimed them for herself? Could it be that most of these players are from this ancient time?
Genius idea. Because you also have Uldren being a Guardian as well. Thing is all these characters became Guardians at different times, and the Ghosts were all made at once, with their Guardians all being assigned to them. So unless Bungie is screwing around with continuity, that means The Gardener knew about Uldren, which means they somewhat know the future.
That’s such a good idea though I’ll have to think about it :).
@@Venextron Yea, feel free to use this and just drop me a mention. I am doing my Degree in English literature and i can see soo many almost poetic symmetry being used within Destiny lore. I would also look at a couple different theologies too.. the symbol of the snake reminds me of lucifer or the snake from the book of genesis. This in particular reminds me of the drifter, as he is a light barer who does not follow the dogma of the light which is similar to Lucifer who was an angel who rebelled against god or in the Drifters case he refuses to follow blindly and seeks what is outside the the light. He always goes the opposite direction of everyone else. Philosophical and psychological influences such as Carl Jung seem to be within the lore aswell (Anima and Animus). Uberboyo has good content on Jung.
I also wonder if the Exo, Vex and The traveller are all related somehow. Is the vex liquid a sort of soul pool, that each vex used too be a person. Is the traveller collecting souls too? for what reason? consolidation of power and back up? It must have a reason for wanting CB to make the exo's or influence him into doing so because he has like the drifter.. other methods. This is me just brain storming but something to consider.
My twitter is @Kitttallica should you want to DM with any questions or ideas you may want some extra advice on. My own youtube channel is mostly literature based. Writing in Destiny is really really good and i am fascinated by it so i am here to help should you need it. :)
So I have a question why water it down?
A lot of the info in the video still stands today, but in terms of making videos, it was one of if not the first one I ever did. It's definitely outdated and needs a redo.
I find it interesting that the Darkness race theorized here is much younger than the hive.
I think it makes sense in the long run although there are still a lot of questions that need to be answered as a result.
I've seen your more recent witch queen videos on this theory and mystery but can't remember after rewatching this if you went into much detail about the witness other than him being a pawn so to speak and not the Winnower. But with the Witness's appearance even though I'm aware it could be explained by simply having the ability to appear however he chooses or what not. Do you think it's a coincidence or a major hint to even more evidence of this theory given the fact that he appears to be identical in design to humans. Other than some very obvious exaggerations and changes as someone like the witness would go through I imagine since he looks human just a little goofier.
Also something to note I went and checked kolobaev's work on art station just the other day and unless I'm navigating the site incorrectly or something I no longer see released, but blocked or blurred art. Was wondering if you knew about this and if he did take them down maybe and was wondering why? Could be far fetched but and we will see one day if this turns out to be true but maybe it's because of the series you made putting a spotlight on it?
Edit: nevermind found out the other images that were blurred were on his own website.
you said the k1 artifact was left by the pyramid race but clovis used that artifact to track down the location of clarity on europa, which is a darkness artifact right?
Exactly, and he got the relic by taking it from the Moon for “safety reasons”.
All of this is from the BL Collector's Edition right?
@@habibizbaydar Yes sir indeed.
@@Venextron Keep it up man, stuff's interesting. Shaxxposting says hello
So i am half way through and basically what you are saying is... We have the light barers.... the awoken ....and the people of the Darkness..... interesting...
It wouldn't be the first time that an enemy faction in a Bungie games lore used singular and plural nouns to refer to themselves or were described as such by others. The Precursors/ Flood from Halo, and the W'rkncacnter both have that in common. In the case of the Precursors/ Flood this is because they ultimately form a compound intelligence called the Gravemind/ Primordial - which has been called "the darkness" in at least three instances in Halo lore. So the Precursors are plural because that is their form when they are described as individuals, but their compound intelligence is referred to as the Primordial or Gravemind. Interestingly the nicknames given to the Gravemind in the Forerunner Halo novels: " Primordial" and "timeless one", are probably references to the opening sentence of the following Marathon quote:
"In primordial space, timeless creatures made waves. These waves created us and the others. Waves were the battles, and the battles were waves.
Fleeing all W'rkncacnter, Yrro and Pthia settled upon Lh'owon. "
And of course the last part of the sentence appears in the book of sorrows in reference to the Darkness.
If you get the sense that this is just a tip of the iceberg of similarities between the Darkness, and the Precursors/ Flood from Halo or the W'rkncacnter, you're not wrong. But then again even if there was something behind this door, things could change.
The Nezarec's Sin ornament Afraid of the Dark is designed to look like a snake. The head is between the horns, and the horns almost from a hood like a cobra. This leads me and a friend of mine to believe that this ornament is what Nezarec's helmet actually looked like in his time. And the default appearance is just a repaired version by whoever discovered it.
Edit: I now believe it was restored by Drifter, when he visited Nezarec's tomb and found either a drawing or statue of Nezarec wearing this helmet. Otherwise, how would anyone know what it looked like? The ornament was released in Forsaken.
could the original number of risen have been.... nine?
I don’t know. But the more I dig into the Nine, the more suspicious I’m beginning to get. I plan on making a theory video similar to this called Project Needle, and that will be exclusively based on the Nine. Love the theory man!
You're Egyptian friend not knowing hieroglyphs was a joke right? lol
Yeah when he said that his Egyptian friend "must've been illiterate" I was like, "Uhhhhh, you know that people don't use hieroglyphs anymore, right?" lmao
Hello Venextron. I would reply to your post, but for some reason I'm not able to. My question is: Are you saying that the Ancient Egyptians were the "guardians" of the Winower, and that the ancient pyramids were really the pyramids we see in each planet? And were the "gods" they were worshipping more likely humans who were turned into guardians, and were only regarded as such because they could die and come back to life, like guardians can? Or that theres a different race only inspired by the ancient egyptians to build the architectures that we see now?
That’s a really good question!
I think that the Ancient Egyptians were the civilisation given a Golden Age thousands of years ago by the Gardener. Their leaders were a handful of individuals that were the first “Guardians”. So they didn’t have Ghosts, were always alive and were each their own class.
The Pyramid Ships are a combination of their Ancient Egyptian Architecture and the technological knowledge given during their Golden Age. The race now is split into two categories I believe. Gods and followers. I don’t know how many of the pantheon are left, but they are worshiped by the others. The followers are like cultists.
That’s all I really know. Hope it helped!
@@Venextron thanks so much for the response! Great video btw.😁👍🏽
@@obsidianbeau4087 Thank you!
Interesting video but get a pop filter for your microphone! There's too much popping caused by your breathing.
Two things work against this theory:
In the lore book where the Darkness speaks to us, it outright SAYS "I had to simulate your minds to communicate with you", heavily implying that it would otherwise be incapable of doing so, and secondly that these entities, Darkness included, began their story as we know it on Fundament, long before humanity even evolved.
First of all, if the lore book you're referring to is "Unveiling", there is no mention of the Darkness saying that it simulated our minds to communicate with us. If you're talking about a different one please let me know.
At the same time, Fundament is a location within our universe, and the lore clearly states that the Winnower and the Gardener created all universes, not that they came from one.
Am I saying this proves me right? Absolutely not, but I either unfortunately don't understand what you mean (it's possible), or the mentioned examples are incorrect.
@@Venextron I don't quite remember where it was, but there was lore where the darkness essentially said something along the lines of "I have simulated your minds to speak to you, and have understood your morals. By your morals, We are the purest evil" or something like that and goes on to explain how it sees itself like the Winter. I may be misremembering but I'm fairly certain that's the case
And we know the Darkness was at least *present* on Fundament over 13 billion years ago thanks to the Books of Sorrow. Point was that they massively predate the Earth and Humanity.
Edit: Fairly certain it was the dialogue from Eris in the Intervention missions
@@noabsolutelynot3660 one minute fact that I find interesting that could pertain to this (albeit, rarely) is that a certain hive god blatantly stated that the BoS are full of lies and not to be trusted. Now whether this is a classic Savathun blunder, or what would be more interesting and equally unlikely is that she’s telling the truth. Now this would turn the entire hive dynamic on its head.
@@casualbowloframen77 Even if they're full of lies, we can be sure of two things:
1. The Hive originated on a planet
2. That planet had the Worm Gods, and hence the Darkness.
Otherwise they had no way of actually leaving their planet unless they have some lost technology, which frankly just doesn't sit right with the theme and makes the story unnecessarily complex. They had to have darkness to exist as long as they have, and they couldn't travel about to grow so powerful with the sword Logic without it. Remember, leaving one solar system is a Herculean task for even the most advanced Golden age ships. They've travelled across several.
Your theory about them being a race turned out to be right but my points remain valid. Touché.
i don’t get how your theory of them being human at one point is solely based off of something that hasn’t even been put in the game. concept art made long before D2 ever released should not be counted as something that’s canon. great video but i truly do not understand how you can base your theory off of that when there hasn’t been a single sign of it in the game.
I actually disagree that there have been no signs of it in game, as I have a video up and and video I'm working on now that shows the Pyramids saying the name Sekhmet. At the same time, the core of it stands.
How could a race, that is so heavily inspired by Ancient Greece and Egypt, to the point where there's Hieroglyphics in the concept art, human gods in the sentences they speak, forges for human weapons in their ships, humanoid figures in their concept art, and who take on the appearance of humans in the written lore (Shadowkeep final cutscene, Kentarch 3 lore, and the last time we saw Brother Vance in the lore) be on the Moon potentially thousands of years ago if they were not Human?
If they weren't human at least at some stage, they why have give them so many ties to humanity?
Btw I'm not saying this proves they were human, I'm just explaining why it makes sense.
Pareidolia
This is extremely loose and far fetched and ignores the majority of the darkness’ lore in favore of this cherry-picked narrative. While it is certainly interesting, the game without a doubt is NOT employing this narrative.
Parts of it yes, of course not. But I believe the core of it still stands.