I like both, but ever since Hardcore released It's by far my favorite. The stakes are way higher so people actually feel the need to work together and coordinate and pay attention to the game. People dying means that the early-game always has players to group with and populate low lvl dungeons, making the world somehow feel much more alive and less stressful as you won't worry about being behind the wave of initial players. People also cooperate a a lot more naturally, sometimes without anything in return and frequently kill eachother's tagged mobs. Healers also feel way more rewarding and impactful, Healing someone from near death is literally saving their life, and passing a fortitude buff is a literal blessing to the other person to stay alive.
@@shieldsftwVanilla WoW about the Exploration and adventure Journey of leveling , Retail more about fast leveling and end game, what makes old school classic better , even the classic gameplay more methodical and takes more strategy , retail fast high number bashing gameplay
Vanilla vet here, from a pserver. I get the hardcore appeal I really do but most of us like to afk and smoke or eat so we just aren't compatible for that high stakes lifestyle I get it tho
For me retail even feels like a beat em up game tbh, you pull 20 mobs and aoe with tons of visual effects, it just feels random compared to 1v1 classic
Except you don't. Most of the players are heavy min-max and thus skipping the adventure part and getting straight into the meta. The "adventure" is just an illusion.
@3:34 this isn't just a retail problem. classic players are just as bad at trying to just clear things as efficiently as possible. if you're not bis/meta slaving, there's a good chance you aren't making the raid. even with sod, people were gear checking in phase 1 for the bfd raid. so its not really a retail vs classic thing, its just on the community as a whole.
I mean yeah, you're right but I feel like classic endgame content CAN be cleared without being meta. Where as in retail the gear actually matters alot in progress.
@@shieldsftw But then it already starts with classes and specs. Not just in raids but also Mythic+. Lower tier specs are almost always ignored, when there is a better performing spec. That itself is not the worst thing, but the fact that people try to min-max every little detail, have no patience and also try to depict the top 1% of player in m+ or raid to the casual. Like, a lower end spec can still perform for most casuals, but is still viewed as incredibly bad from the start.
@shieldsftw they both can be. Normal for sure and possibly heroic level raids in retail can be cleared without playing meta builds and not having bis gear. The only real spot you need that is if you're doing mythic, and that's where the issue comes in. Most expect a mythic level of players for any type of difficulty. Everyone always sets the bar of expectations to the higher limits of the game. It's not as rampant in classic since you only have the one difficulty of raid. But a good majority of people want to min max it so much that if you do something in 5 minutes instead of 3, you're just going to be overlooked. Or there's "why have you not been running xyz to get xyz gear" "where's your world buffs?" "omg why are you playing that spec? Don't you know the other one is more dps?" Granted that last bit is more of a game balancing fault, but the point still remains.
I was too young to play WoW when it first came out and I'd always felt like I missed on something, so I gave WoW a go this year. I tried the first 20 levels free trial on retail WoW and I hated how just hitting level 10 they give you mounts, specially flying mounts, and how you've barely played the game and they throw gold at your face. I got a subscription and I gave classic a WoW, and it feels like a total different game. Currently playing the new fresh anniversary classic PvP server and I had so much fun. I'm excited that I'll get to experience TBC next year and maybe WoTLK in the future. Retail would need to undo so many "QoL" features for me to consider playing it...
Spending an entire season grinding conquest gear, getting so close to finishing my gladiator set, only to have the green honor gear replace it turned me off from retail wow endgame completely
I actually feel the opposite and when I finish my PvP gear grind I get a bit bored. The PvP gear system in retail fixes a lot of the problems I have with feeling left behind in classic PvP where it is clearly an uphill battle against those who get to endgame first. In a casual dungeon/raiding and BattleGrounds: if I am under geared in PvE content; Sure people might get annoyed, but it isn't end of the world. But being under geared in PvP content is much more disheartening as you die over and over.
@@Obliviell cause PvP is a side quest on the main game. always has been. when a new axpansion comes out, do see the battlegrounds/arenas? no. you see the new zone/raid to do.
I like classic more but prefer dungeon finder over spamming chat and waiting hours to do a fkn dungeon. It is an unpopular opinion within classic players but I just love the convenience of the finder.
Yes as most of it players,i for example already adult and with child,so i dont have so much time for lvling etc,so i prefer more session type games,retail is more session like game.
@@Scuuurbs the Classic world isnt small at all, it just likely feels small when you dragonride over the entire map in 5 minutes. But thats because the game wasn't originally designed to be perceived this way, you were supposed to see the world from the ground
@@Teegetraenktrinker The perception of the world around is down to YOUR perception. in Retail the world IS bigger than classic. You just don't perceive it that way because of flight. but if you choose to go at it like its classic. Trust me done it from time to time. Expansion areas like in Dragonflight are massive. If you want to explore, and find things off the beaten path, there is drastically more like that in the new zones, caves, toys to be found, rares, and so on. But yet again. in retail getting to all of this is faster, because flight. For instance. if you fly to Valdrakken, from the waking shores. 1 mint to 1min and a half flight. If you want to walk it/ground mount it. you looking at a classic like expedition, because, you will have to traverse through all 4 zones just to reach the Hub city. Unless there is a path I never found, even though waking shores and Thaldraszus are neighbors, unless you flight there is no path to walk between them.
I simply don’t enjoy games nowadays that revolve around low attention spans and fast rewards. I love the concept of grinding for an armor or weapon upgrade or the lore behind most classic quests in general are worthy of full length movies or Netflix series. Retail is my like hanging out with my ADHD 7 year old niece, Classic is having a beer with my brother while fishing.
@maxpowers4436 retail is way grindier / designed worse for actual casual players. You do get daily and weekly boosts yes. But you do not have permanent upgrades. Missing out on the weeklies and dailies slows you down extremely Once you decked yourself out, the srason is over already and the gear becomes worth less than avg. Questing greens. You have to grind considerably more for indivdual rep etc in classic. But once you did, youre done and due to basically no daily / weekly supports, you get the full rewards when you manage to play. Maybe you got a whole weekend and then 2 weeks no time for wow, in this situation vanilla actually does become casual friendlier Oh and you can do every content with friends, even if theyre not top players. I rather have fun with good guys instead of pushing keys with idiots who think they invented the world while constantly griefing
I believe all the instanced environments play a crucial role in the world's feeling, perhaps if they removed most realms and made a couple mega realms with less instanced areas, etc, it would make the world feel like one.
I tried playing classic again during the pandemic. I much prefer the feel of classic as I started off in TBC. However the leveling time from 1-60 is so absurdly slow I just don’t have the time to commit to that anymore . Retail has its downsides but it’s a lot easier to spend an hour in game and actually do some activity that you like. Classic grind I just don’t think matches with a lot of peoples lifestyles now with families and responsibilities
@@laoch5658 Well, he did join in TBC, and the way the expansions are set up does mean that everything before TBC is useless/ almost no interaction. That is the biggest mistake Blizzard made: with every Xpack all previous content was pointless.
@ here is my problem, I enjoy the leveling process of classic and not rushing but when I spend a few hours getting a half of a level I’m not satisfied signing off. Whereas retail I can hit a dungeon or do BGs for an hour or 2 and feel like I accomplished something and got my fix . It may just be me and how I approach the game nowadays but I think the classic design of no group finder , and just the amount of time it takes to do things just doesn’t really work for me anymore.
Lowkey been loving the skinning and leatherworking professions in the war within, its very fun and has quite alot of depth to immerse in, wish they brought that into classic expansions too.
in regard to the social interactions side of it, I feel the opposite. Classic is way more toxic when trying to engage with unknown content compared to retail, and I have found loads of chill people just by standing around in org talking in /say or /1 chat, or using group finder to join raids and being invited to discords. Classic felt like everyone had some sort of hidden agenda anytime you tried to group up with others and it's no longer about having fun, it's about downing a raid asap so that you can get to this week's loot drama.
You're not exactly wrong. I levelled a character in retail and I was surprised that the players, while normally silent, were very friendly when they did start talking and were more then willing to dungeon spam with noobs. World chat was also cordial. There's just less of a need to talk in retail than classic and for someone who doesn't like to make first contact it can come across as cold. In Classic RDF many people will straight up ignore you.
@@anacronrealz There is still a lot of guilds in the game that are accepting new people. Especially RP realms have some nice community guilds that can help you get started and through the content, the major problem with retail is it's seasonal structure. Because it's so seasonal, at a certain point all of the casuals get their stuff done or they hit their milestone mark and go to play other games because there really isn't much else to do if you are already satisfied with your gear/rating/raid progression. At a certain point you are left with 80/20 split between Min/maxxers and the few casuals left playing because it's the only game they play which makes finding groups even more awful.
@@anacronrealz LFG in retail is so much easier and friendlier than classic if you don't have parse or any records/connections, all you have to do is literally ask. If you don't have a guild or standing in a server's discord in classic you may as well just spin up a classic private server and play with bots as it will be a better experience.
Awesome video. Its very strange how they have the two divided. As someone whos played both and have friends who are still trying to learn the ropes of retail. 1. Retail has all of your spells assigned by your class while classic you get all of your class spells with few spec specific. 2. Levelling is so much faster in retail being more easily engaged with as a new player, while classic has a more delayed gratification and the real thrill is the journey not just hitting cap. I've actually had friends say that they were levelling fast enough since they weren't levelling every dungeon lol. 3. The mechanics are easier but also harder. All of your spells are just given to you on level up but rotations and kits are full of WAY more buttons then ever before rather then the utility or situational spells from classic. Most efficient damage rotations often have 2-3 buffs you're trying to keep active at all times. They highlight everything for you but its still a lot going on to a fresh wow player. Whereas a classic player might have to pay for each one of their skills but are more likely to learn the right circumstances to use them and they aren't expected to keep several effects active to make their class effective. Classic might be larger time investment but I'll forever hold that its the premier way to experience WoW for new players and old due to its ease of entry.
I don't completely agree with this statement. I know a lot of people that play retail that absolutely despise classic because it is too slow and doesn't have enough going on. (Their words.) I think the choice of what version to play wow needs to be on a case to case bases because not everyone trying wow is going to enjoy super slow progression and 2 button rotations while watching swing timers, and not everyone will enjoy 10 button rotations while dodging 20 ground effects. Heck two of my friends refuse to play classic because they don't like leveling.
@@cloud132456 And theres nothing wrong with this. If I'm going for an MMO experience my PERSONAL opinion is that classic is the way to go. Retail has broke into a new genre of its own that I'm not sure is RPG anymore where gear at higher level is just better since every possible stat is pasted onto it and gearing decisions are simpler. Higher ilvl means better gear, whereas classic you have to ask whether or not this piece is better FOR ME. Its a more complicated RPG but I find it really engaging. Edit: I'd almost classify retail as a more session based RPG like a COD-Multiplayer lobby style MMORPG then its roots as a classical rpg.
@@xuulis6165 I personally agree with classic being a better RPG, my thing is more that I can't say that Classic is the best way to experience WoW for every new player. If I'm talking to someone that enjoys fast pace games, but doesn't like playing games that are slower, I'm not going to suggest classic wow to them, I'd point to retail first, and if then they don't like retail I'll point to classic. That's all I really disagree with.
Both retail and classic are enjoyable, as you said, for their own reasons, I couldn't agree more. 🎉 Super cool video concept, structure, presentation and I definitely will be subbing to support another small WoW creator who has really solid and reasonable takes. 🙏🔥 Keep up the good work, may the winds always be at your back. 🌬💨🍃
It sucks that for so many people this is an extremely hot take. I'm a faithful retail player who has basically enjoyed all the recent expansions, but many classic fans act as though the modern game is an actual plague on humanity. I find classic too slow and unengaging to enjoy long term after reaching max on two characters, and its modern community is extremely unwelcoming unless you also want to keep doing the humor of the early 2000s, which i very much do not.
I dont mind leveling, I like the questing and running around but I also like getting to end game as quick as possible cuz its fun having my spells and synergies and talents. Leveling only feels like an annoying hurdle to me in retail cuz i mainly spam dungeons and the level scaling is abysmal. They NEED to make it cross faction and set in level ranges again. None of this lv 68 tank and lv13 healer and trash mobs just either being fodder or 1 shotting for no reason
Yeah, I don't really see a reason to keep random ques faction restricted in retail anymore since everything else is starting to be cross-faction already.
Personally, I love that retail has become more antisocial. I used to play back in WotLK and I agree that there was something magical to the whole social aspect, but as I grow older and have less and less time to spend in-game, I prefer to not play Facebook simulator 2004 and instead be able to jump in and out of content whenever I want - do a quick dungeon or raid, log out, and do something else. What I'd hate the most is having to spend 30 minutes of my 2 free hours after work having to talk to people and assemble a group. I talk to people all day long. I just want to kill some bosses and get loot.
For me there is no fun without the social system and old grinding, but this is because i have six months every year without work where i can do whatever i want
I agree with your points 1, 3, 4, and 5. Retail is definitely endgame focused and is more complex. The MMO and Warcraft feelings are something that vary from person to person, but I agree with what you found. The point I (almost) completely disagree with though is the power progression. People in classic like to act like season are a problem but will refuse to acknowledge the difference in power from lvl 60 dungeon gear, BoEs, MC, BWL, AQ, and Nax. In retail going from one season to the next is no different than if you progress through the phases of level 60 at the rate they were released (unless you are pushing high keys but that is an extreme minority of players). Also all of the problems with power scaling while leveling are there in both versions of the game they just vary slightly. While in retail the average enemies are scaling with you, and you arguably feel yourself getting slightly weaker, the largest example of this is people CHOOSING to not replace a previous expansions gear while leveling either because of set bonuses or optimized stats. In Classic sure, when you gain 5 levels those elites that you had problems with 5 levels ago might be easier but you aren't any better at dealing with the new elites at your current level, and in many cases much much worse because it's hard to find adequate upgrades. Lastly, I don't think Classic actually respects your time more than retail, that's almost laughable. If you put in the time into retail you WILL get upgrades and WILL get stronger, there are no protections in place in Classic and no guarantee of reward for time spent, which is an argument I have seen in favor of Classic from Classic players "retail just hands out too much loot".
Classic fans seem to equate time to effort 1:1, but like...its just SLOW. Classic is objectively easy you just can't go at the same pace as in retail because you heal slowly, and dying means a very long walk to your corpse and a large repair bill. I levelled a warrior and druid to 60 when classic first launched, and rarely died because you learn your limits quickly. It actually sucks later on as well because all the "challenging world content" like elite quests in sub 50 zones is just unsoloable and few people level alts so outside of the launch window, that stuff is dead content. In retail, especially now, you are not locked out of anything, which i appreciate a lot more, and i can push things to my personal skill limit whenever i wish, or just lay back and farm mats and quests if i want a relaxing experience. Classic is just the relaxing experience the entire time which eventually gets old. I also think the classic fanbase is a toxic cesspit but thats personal taste.
I play both versions but mostly retail. To understand retail, people must look from very different perspective. Game has evolved around changing mindset of people and lifestyles through years. Most classic enjoyers such as me are above 30 years old while most retail players are between 16-25ish as much as I could observe. The new generation is more isolated, self-interested and result oriented while back in our time we used to enjoy the sharing and the journey. When we were kids, we used to make tires and cars out of the woods, we used to enjoy the progress and the brainstorm we had together with friends not thinking about outcome. Most of the classic enjoyers are after the nostalgic feeling that they tasted many years ago, the bliss of enjoying the progress and journey not caring about outcome yet doing their best to reach it. New generation people gets what they want, get rids of it when they don't want anymore and gets new stuff when they feel like just like seasons. To understand the differences we must approach from socilogical aspect that shaped the game. Both are very different games from each other made for absolutely different audiences. The reason I play retail more than classic nowadays is that through the years I lost my interest in social interactions and became more self oriented and I don't want to deal with anyone else to get what I want, which also shaped my perspective about what to expect in a game.
I like and play both, but my skill and experience is 100% in retail. When retail gets boring or there is something I don't like about it, I go have an adventure on classic. I've raided mythic and got CE's and pushed rating in the past, but nowdays I like getting aotc, hitting 2k in M+ and then chilling on alts. War Within pugging has made alt gearing feel terrible, so I'm done for now until next patch. What helps is that I never played classic back in the day, and I've never reached level 60 before on classic period. So like right now, I'm enjoying the classic ride while everyone is a part of it. When another patch comes out for retail, I'll go play it until I become disappointed or bored enough, and then I hop back on classic. Rinse and repeat. For me, the thing I don't like about retail is that every bit of content outside of the current xpac's end game is completely irrelevant and ignored. Like, if I wanted to replay Legion for the cool artifact weapons and story, I can't because most of the legendaries and effects are inactive. The completely bonkers scaling system breaks doing anything less than max level content as well. Even if I wanted to level some characters, the experience is dead if I wanted to quest. It's too easy, period. Leveling has only become a gateway inconvenience to the only content blizzard really wants you participating in. It's why they sell level boosts and constantly give us EXP boosts, because the leveling system intentionally sucks. So to get that feeling again, you pretty much have to play vanilla.
Gearing is not bad in TWW. You can hit 80 in two days and have a full set of Veteran gear waiting on you then go straight into delves and low keys. It’s very easy.
I've played wow for 15 years and leveled a druid in the re release of classic and tbc to see what all the hype was about. And really its just hype. All of the material differences are personal preference and subjective. I literally grew up playing this game and modern WoW feels like it has grown with me. Not perfectly, but overall. So just to take it point by point. 1. the MMO feeling. I have been in several guilds over the years and my current one is a pretty good community of around 30 people with different reasons for playing. I spent 2 years~ each in those other zones and don't really want to go sit in WoTLK Dalaran, been there done that. I played those stories when they were relevent. 2. Power Progression. I don't push for more than KSM and AOTC each patch, and the gear required to get their is relatively low to the min max needed for mythic raid and KSH, So by doing the content I like I naturally get the gear I want, the down sides of power progression in WoW have always been overdramatized. 3. So end game has always been the focus of the game. Having leveled in classic now, it really is nothing special. Ya some of the stores are good. But I also have lore master for every zone and expansion. TBH the good quest stories are everywhere. 4. Complexity. Ya I can see how complexity would be an issue. I grew up with all the changes and added systems. However, there is a huge delta between spamming frost bolt and modern systems and rotations. On the subject of system complexity. In classic nothing is explained either. that has been problem of MMO design for ever. No NPC in classic explains professions, enchanting, resistances, MP5, armor reduction, threat, quest objectives. So on the whole classic and wow are barley explained by the game and require tons of outside research to be played at any meaningful competency. 5. feeling is subjective. yep nothing can really be done about that. There are everyone from classic to TWW enjoyers. the vibes bounce off everyone differently.
From a crafters PoV, I like the new crafting system. But as someone who needs to get an item crafted and then having to spam trade and look for crafters, yeah it feels kinda bad. Also very confusing for many ppl.
I really like the crafting system in retail and how its made, especially with improvements implemented in TWW. I find it intuitive and rewarding for crafter to skill up and gain knowledge. But from the product consumer perspective i think crafting orders could be explained better in game, as a lot of players i craft for just dont know (like 25% of players).
My take, from someone who plays Wrath, Cata, and MoP: anything before LFR (or p servers that don't have it) feels like there is much more interaction with players and you make friends easier. I don't mind LFD as much, because it is not the end game you will spend most of your time on, and the difficulty of the content isn't too hard for random players. It makes it easier to level, and get alts ready for raids and PvP; so LFD but no LFR is the balance I prefer. It's about finding that sweet spot. I agree 100% with the power progression argument. I like the linear progression and DETERMINISTIC gear that doesn't feel like an endless treadmill. I actually don't mind scaling systems when done properly, but the feeling of getting LESS powerful when you level that you see in Retail is a HUGE turn off. A game like Warhammer Online: Return of Reckoning does it properly, where you still care about gear upgrades but can compete in PvP with people a higher level than you. Feels good. As for the focus on end game, I find it most appealing on p servers with 2x rates. It's a portion of the game, and fun to go through, but not a complete slog. Part of this is due to how often I've leveled something up in a given expansion. It seems like every time I do it, I want it a bit faster than the last, until it reaches a threshold. I enjoy the XP gains on heirloom gear for this reason, but NOT the increase in stats!!!! Part of what makes the leveling fun is CHALLENGE. If there is no danger, it isn't an adventure. This leads to the leveling process not feeling like "the real game" TM that starts at max level. It contributes to the "go go go" rush of people trying to get to cap instead of enjoying the journey. The Wrath - MoP era leaned too far into making the leveling too easy (player power increased but the content did not get the same boost in difficulty). I don't want the leveling to take AS LONG as Vanilla, but I respect the fact that you can easily die. I also can't stand the fact that when the leveling gets too fast, you barely stay in a zone for long. This is one benefit scaling systems have... but if done wrong it ruins the game and you still need to be able to FEEL a gain in power. The best ones still emulate the feeling of the slow, linear progression of Vanilla. Frankly the leveling of Vanilla is king for a reason, and they should take notes. Complexity is an interesting topic. The best way I can describe Retail is NEEDLESS complexity; it lacks any elegance. Sure, if you want to add depth you have to increase complexity by at least a little bit, but you want the lowest complexity to the highest depth ratio possible. Everything in Retail seems to pile on complexity while not increasing the depth. EVERYTHING from leveling, talents, gearing, systems, on and on. You know what I liked about Cata? The best emblem and gearing system in the game's history. It was the last expansion with 100% deterministic loot, but plenty of vendors for bad RNG protection and catch up mechanics for alts. You had honor and conquest for PvP, and justice and valor for PvE; THAT'S IT. Simple and to the point. The rolling valor cap on Cata Classic is chef's kiss on top (even if we are taking a step backwards to Wrath with another dungeon queue and new currency). I can't go back to Vanilla and BC because classes have ZERO rotation. FFS you just cast Frostbolt or Shadowbolt. Retail has rotations that are needlessly complex. Once you sift through the noise, most of them aren't THAT bad, but it is getting through the needless complexity of it all. Wrath, Cata, and MoP had the best rotations out of any point in the game... and if the combat feels good, the game is fun to play. There is enough depth to have you learning little tricks and tips to min max damage for years, but not so complex you need a master's degree for a new player to figure it out and reach the skill floor green parses. Talent trees are related to this as well. Some of the older versions of the games lacked options, but the current trees add a ton of complexity without adding much depth, and the way they are laid out means the resulting rotations don't have the same feel as the Wrath - MoP meticulously crafted rotations where everything lines up perfectly and every spell is a small part of the same vision for the spec. Furthermore, single target vs AoE build is NOT a play style choice, just that you chose the "right" or "wrong" one for the content. We could also talk about the amount of buttons... something between Wrath, Cata, and MoP just feels right; most of my favorite iterations of specs land in one of those expansions. Again, all of it just feels like finding the sweet spot, and we DON'T have to add a million buttons or huge talent trees to give new options. Imagine if there are toggles for play style choices at the top of the tree? So maybe one version of Enhance is built around 2h weapons, and another one is a tanking tree, etc. where certain abilities replace others like Gladiator stance warrior on crack. If the options are kept separate from one another they can be balanced separately... instead of the current trees throwing it all together and good luck to whoever has to balance that. At least this would be an additive system as opposed to redesigning the wheel every few years. We could also talk about raid difficulty and boss mechanics. In Vanilla there aren't really many real mechanics (meaning I find raiding boring), Wrath starts to add some in, and by the time we hit Cata even the dungeon bosses have legit mechanics that, pre nerf, could one shot you or wipe your group. Cata feels like we finally have REAL boss mechanics. By the time we get to Legion some of the mechanics are needlessly convoluted, and on Retail they are making browser games to explain the mechanics to people. Like everything else so far there is a sweet spot. it will vary from person to person (I prefer Cata/MoP heroic difficulty) but there is a reason why Wrath had and kept the largest player population: it was the closest to finding the sweet spot for your average player. As for "Warcraft feeling" I agree 100%. It used to be about brutal war instead of larping as furries and dragons while we talk about our feelings. We can laugh at how Warlords turned out, but the trailer and shorts got people hyped for a reason. Keep in mind, originally Warcraft RTS was being designed as a Warhammer Fantasy game.. and the visuals used to be MUCH closer to the dark world of Warhammer. I miss that. WoW has just lost its edge over time, being dulled down into something safe and generic. When I play Warhammer Online I feel like this is what WoW SHOULD have felt like; the vibe of that janky old game has modern WoW beat HANDS DOWN.
@@shieldsftw Well... some races are ok like Zandalaris, Nightfallen or Dark Iron feel ok. But then you have Vulpera and Dracthyrs which feel so off from what Warcraft is ☠
@@Orgrimmar21 Yea, I myself like Alliance Races like Worgen, which existed in Literature before Vanilla WoW to my Knowledge. as well as some Humans, Elves, and such, for Horde...Tauren (Minotaurs in a way), Some Orcs, but there are also races I am not fond of. but Retail....yea Retail...definitely went in a Direction. for me personally. Vanilla-MoP feels like home, more so the WoTLK-MoP Section as that's the one I had the most interaction with, but you Can also tell that even MoP Followed a bit of Classic's Philosophy (No Level Scaling, Progression feels Permanent, you earn a Upgrade. it's a Upgrade, your Power won't feel like it's fallen off if you come back a bit later)
@@Orgrimmar21 I agree with you, it’s far off from what Warcraft is….or was. The modern players like the more goofy, Disney-esque stuff clearly. Personally, I think it’s part of what drives me away from Retail. But they like those races, just like they think Factions should be done away with
I'm 30 now but when I was a teen going from middle school to high school and university it was all about vanilla/tbc/wrath levelling experience, bonds with people on whatever private server I played as well as the journey towards the endgame, instead of it just being a destination to get to asap. I've been playing Wrath Classic since Naxxramas and as much fun as I had with it again making some great bonds while guild-hopping, the game's tone definitely shifted to be more endgame centric starting with Cataclysm. I tried levelling a completely fresh toon and the levelling experience no longer felt enjoyable, everyone was encouraged to just spam random dungeon finder over and and over until they ding 80+. The questing itself became braindead easy and doesn't help you learn the game whatsoever because you can mow down multiple targets at once with ease. You no longer need to group with others, you just hop in, hop out of the dungeon roulette. Because of that professions are completely disjointed too, when I used to play pre-cata private servers I would have no issue having a gathering + crafting profession up to date with each expansion because the game gave a fuck and so did I, starting with cata, the game stops giving a fuck because levelling your toon is blazing fast and you REALLY need to get out of your way to also not fall behind on your professions zone-wise. It's just bad game design introduced each expansion cycle. It made the CORE gameplay which is levelling and the journey more braindead, single player, and ultimately boring, unattractive, while making endgame even more engaging and harder, even if that basically means more people will quit the game before even reaching there. I played some Dragonflight too, levelling is fucking abysmal but endgame is pretty great if you don't mind the gacha/mobile game tier daily/weekly grinds and similar fomo shit. I personally don't love it, but mythic+ progs are fun as hell.
especially relevant right now, retail feels like waiting in line at disney land, classic feels like im in an rpg world. everything in retail right now feels like im waiting in line for my turn at a 5 minute ride, the rollercoaster is old and wooden, shakes like crazy and doesnt go very fast, and feels like it may not be worth the wait. in classic even if im playing solo i feel like im planning where i want to go and when, whether or not a quest is worth it, planning out my professions, always able to sell extra materials, i feel like im planning a journey not waiting for a ride.
I really enjoy both. Classic wow is that perfect chill version of wow that allows me to put on my rose tinted goggles, relax, and bring back memories of my first time on Azeroth. I enjoy retail for the difficult aspect, when I really want to lock in and see how far I can push my toons.
@@ICee712 Just as many bots in classic as there is in retail (supply demand -> bots go where players are, they dont care what the game mode is.. You even see bots in Hardcore wow)
I feel so disconnected from a lot of the former Retail players when it comes to this whole subject. The thing that would bring me back to retail is ultimately the thing that most people quit over already. My core issue is I don't feel Retail wow has changed enough to ever make coming back feel worth it. I play FFXIV now, and I'm enjoying getting to explore and experience a bunch of new systems, and challenges and rotations that ask me to learn a new MMO from the ground up. When it comes to Retail, my issue is there isn't enough systems, there isn't enough innovation or change to make me excited about coming back to retry the game. While there has been changes, the core issue I always point out is that, even having not played the game from BFA, I can explain how every spec in the game is going to play with about 80% accuracy, because it just never changes. There's no new ideas or wild changes to wow me or make me want to come back for a new, exciting experience, if I come back, I'll still be getting Lava surge procs from my fire shock to give me free lava bursts, I'll still be spending my meter to use Earth shock, and I'll still use Stormkeeper for juiced up lightning spells on a CD. I'm not saying that's the only issue I have with Retail, but to me, I'm just bored of playing the same specs and rotations that've been in the game for so long with only minor changes between each Xpac. Especially given the fact you're so heavily locked to one class to invest into. The biggest thing I love about FFXIV is the fact just today doing content, I played Sage, warrior, gunbreaker, Red mage, Pictomancer, Machinist, black mage, ninja and dragoon over the day just because I was like "Well, I feel like playing this right now", and when you're trying to learn and remember all the quirks and rules for 24 specs instead of 3, it really helps keep things feeling fresh, and I never have that moment of class envy where I wish I picked X or Y because my class enforces limitations on how I can experience the game. Ultimately, Classic WoW has a vary different design direction and intention with it, and that's okay. I really wish they'd just pull the trigger and make Classic+ at this point as that's something I'd actually come back to the game to try out, I felt SoD missed the mark for me, because it was just grabbing abilities that existed in later Xpacs and shoveling them into Classic wow and calling it a new, fresh experience, but if you've played the later versions of the class, the novelty felt extremely short lived to me. Just accepting that the core design pillars of Retail and Classic are not the same, and that you should build off of them to provide two unique experiences that appeals to two different audiences feels like such a better approach. Classic WoW should focus on casual, optional content to flush out the world, to make the adventure from 1-60 feel incredible and to make the world feel alive and dynamic, not trying to fixate on the end game raiding or grind that people moved away from Retail wow from. I personally love degenerate Cutting edge raiding, but I think to walk into Molten core in 2024 and try and pretend like the game should be fully designed around it as if its the ultimate pillar of the classic experience is pretty ridiculous. Personally, to look at FFXIV, or PoE, something these games do extremely well that I wish WoW would take notes on is how there's so many stand alone branches of content that you're never forced to interact with, that provide some reason to do them, but its 100% optional, and while you might choose to ignore the system because its not your preference, or you're busy with something else, there's communities of players interacting and having a totally different experience then you in the game. I think that at its core is what makes the game feel alive to me. In WoW Retail, the world is dead because the core, single vision of the game is End game, RBG's, Arena, M+, Raiding, etc. You have no reason to go to Hillsbrad or the Crossroads, but when I look at something like FF14, people still run a roguelike 200 floor dungeon called Palace of the dead, and the enterance for it is in a town in a level 20 area. Same with the boat to get to Island Expeditions, or people running around doing Treasure maps, Fate bosses, S Ranks, Hunt Trains, Bozja or Eureka, just having players out in the world participating in content that has nothing to do with you I feel is so important for the feeling of the world.
Decided to try retail this year. Ive played a ton of pvp and tried out raiding as well. My biggest issue is that I never felt attached to my character the way I do in classic to wrath expansions. The game feels extremely soulles in comparison to older expansions.
Yeah, I feel you. Somehow the slow process of building your character in classic WoW does make you much more emotionally attached to the character when compared to retail.
You don’t feel attached because you haven’t spent enough time with them. I’m way more attached to my retail characters. I’ve played them for almost a decade, whereas Classic makes me restart every year.
I prefer the fact that Vanilla WoW does NOT have a main storyline. Without singular main storylines, or even zone stories, you can go any direction you want and explore and not feel like some nun with a ruler is standing behind you to rap your knuckles to get with the program. Once main storylines were added, the focus of the player when interacting with NPCs became how awesome you are, rather than being just a nobody trying to make their way in the world. I do have to wonder what the breakdown of faction for "Warcraft Feel" was, whether it was mostly a Horde opinion, Alliance opinion, or evenly split. I have my suspicions, but I'd rather not jump to conclusions.
I don't get retail leveling. Either remove it completely, or make it good and actually taking time. You can even keep both options: just make good leveling AND add a free character boost. But the current system? It's just a way to sell paid character boosts, nothing else.
I quite enjoy retail leveling. It’s extremely fast and I look forward to getting a talent every level and learning my class. Skipping this phase is why players are so bad at max level.
@@erejnion retail leveling is meant to be expedient. But not too fast that you are firehosed with abilities and talents. Returning or veteran players not doesn’t matter. But place yourself in the shoes of an absolutely brand new player, It’s meant to give you a little time to learn the spells, tooltips, rotations etc before you go into end game.
@@Spookycasual Yeah, every single feedback I see is that it fails to do so, being too fast for new players and too slow for veterans. So I am not sure what your argument is. Again, it's either-or: either make it slow enough that people actually learn their classes and have a good time leveling, or just skip it entirely.
Yeah, honestly they could have it both ways in retail. Leveling a character for the first time should take a long time. Perhaps not 200+ hours long like classic, but maybe like 60-80 hours. And then, like they currently have, you could get a progressive XP boost each time you get an alt to max level, because I do see the value in vastly accelerating the leveling process for people who have already done it 12 times.
Answer to "What you think": I have dropped retail completely and only play Classic (mostly SOD or hardcore). The reasons for this are primarily: 1. The aspect of the game I enjoy the most (faction conflict) is being watered down with every expansion (except for BFA). 2. PvP seems to be more and more of a side-project, alongside pet battles, which sucks, as I pay the same price every month as every PvE player, but get much less. I am aware that WoW has never been a PvP game primarily. But the amount of ressources they spend on PvE (raiding) and PvP (battlegrounds, arenas, world PvP) is barely even comparible. Making a new arena would require less effort than making 1 boss in a raid, and we should be happy if we even get that much in an entire expansion. A new battleground? My assumption is the same amount of effort as a quarter of raid and we barely even get that every second expansion. 3. The graphics. As mentioned in the video, a lot of the style has become incredibly soft. 4. The class accessibility. The whole "everyone can play anything. Damn the lore and fantasy of the world." is becoming way too much. Sure the sacrifices already started in TBC, where blood elves were joining the Horde, because too many people joined the Alliance. So Blizzard wanted to give Horde a "pretty race", despite the fact that it made no sense lore-wise. But today, we are at a whole different level. Tauren and troll paladins be damned, we now have night elf warlocks. At this point, it wouldn't be out of the question to give orcs priests or goblin druids. The 4 points I mentioned are my primary reasons for quitting retail. In short, it just doesn't seem like Blizzard takes the game serious anymore. But of course, there are other things I dislike about it as well. So in conclusion, if I was to consider coming back to retail, the game would have to change to the point, where the people who enjoy it for what it is today, probably would not like it. Blizzard aimed to design the game for a new or different audience, and in the process, they lost some of the old audience, myself included.
there are very few things I prefer in retail over classic: - transmog - mount ui - pet ui - bigger bags - class design (no soul shards, no ammo buy for hunters) if these aspects were implemented to classic and on top housing then classic would be perfect to me.
So basically most of the stuff you like on retail are just cosmetic or QOL based stuff. Didn't see you mention any of the actual gameplay/content aspects of the game which are like the core part of any mmo
@@Core1138 can you explain to me why? from a roleplay/rpg perspective i like having options how i want to dress and i prefer not everybody looking the same.
Blizzard should release a wow server with a much longer phase cadence. Vanilla was released at the end of 2004 and TBC was released at the start of 2007. So a more true experience would be a two year “season”. Which would also allow people to level alts etc. all things that people actually did when wow was originally released. Maybe some additional incentives for players to do that as well. Since it also helps new players who pick up the game after release since the starting zones aren’t totally empty. People might say there is time for alts with the current timeline, and there is, but not really for the gamer moms and dads, who may lose a week here or there for life things that arise. And this would help with the feeling of being behind and no way to catch up.
I totally agree. The shortened lifespans of classic patches and expansions is one of the reasons I don't play as much classic as I'd like to. I like classic, but leveling takes so long that after like two months in classic 2019 I was level 45 or so and got burnt out, when I was finally ready to come back to it and get to level 60 I had already missed a few phases. And there was no way I could keep up with TBC and WotLK with those only lasting a year. I know that you don't truly have to "keep up" and you can go at your own pace, but not if you want to experience the raids (before they become from the gear from the following raids) or if you want to be leveling in the same zones as everyone else or being able to actually be competitive with professions or pvp. This is a large reason I really like the hardcore format, because it keeps most people in the low level ranges.
its the community why i quit retail. Everything needs to be fast and quick, you cant even enjoy the dungeons in 5 mans, because if you're a bit slow you`ll getting kicked straight away.
Bro, I once tried playing WoW with a controller using an addon just for fun. I was the tank, I was going at a decent clip but still learning how to do everything with a controller. My toon was low level, even. Because I didn't chain pull the entire instance in 5 minutes I was kicked midway through. Nobody was dying, we weren't stopping for more than maybe 5 seconds at a time as I figured out where to put new abilities as I leveled up. The content would have been trivial enough for them all to pull the instance as DPS. But no, instead they... kick the tank. Be sweaty or be kicked - that's the retail way. No fun, just grind.
Really great video! I agree with everything said. I hadn't played the game in about 6 years but then came back for classic. Now I'm switching between HC and Retail. They are very different but both are really fun in their own way.
Good video. I've levelled a character to max in retail (well, without buying the dragonflight game) and have played Classic since TBCC. One of the things I'd like to point out is the decline in quality of the writing between even two expansions past Cata. I levelled a character in WOD/Legion through time walking and in BFA and even that felt different. I could kind of get into the story in WOD and in the Nightborne zone in Legion, I was pretty invested. Kul Tiras? Oh man was it dull and all over the place. It felt directionless. The story was, I guess, to rescue Jaina but I was pretty much hopping from town to town in each zone to do a checklist of quests before I could move on again. It felt like a guided tour of sets you'd see at a tour of an old medieval castle. I didn't even get to save Jaina at the end and still had one whole zone to clear (like when does it fucking end!?). The WOD and Nighthold zones felt like yo were actually trying to hold an area for your side. The landscapes were interesting and there felt like there was stakes and purpose for what you were doing. I felt like some of the other zones for Legion were dull, but both Nighthold and High Mountain were great. To try to get a Classic player back into even BFA let alone beyond? Blizzard would have to pay us $15 a month!
Thanks! Yeah I too feel like the retail story has declined and gone in a wrong direction. It used to be very cool but feels kinda dull now. Still, I am a wow lore nerd and will follow it all the same xd.
@@maruraba1478 I did not, I knew KT from WC2/3 whereas Zandalar were the trolls you turn in ZG stuff for iirc? I'll have to take your word it was better but after levelling two characters to 70 I wasn't in the mood to level a 3rd on Horde to test it out. I just kind of wanted it to be over at that point.
One thing I'd like to note... More Dice doesn't necessarily mean (More Fun)... Retails Itemization and over the top damage Is all just a bit too much... In classic I like that all I got to do is make sure I'm well fed and sharpen my blade ... That's it
Got my names reserved the minute classic 2 opened yesterday. Wife and I logged on did a couple quests, killed some quilboars, got extremely bored 🥱 logged off, uninstalled. The nostalgia goggles are nice but it still doesn't make up for the fact that vanilla was a boring slog, And you'll never get that feeling of doing it the first time again.
The best feeling about Classic as an example: Enter Redridge Mountains, do some quests alone. You find someone doing the same quests, invite him to group and you continue to quest together. You progress and have to kill Gath'llzogg, now you need to make a full group. It becomes a 2 hour ordeal because of a 19 rogue ganker. You kill him together and finally finish the quest. When the quest group splits, you end up putting 2 of them in the friends list and most likely continue playing with them. This has never happened in retail and it's one of the reasons I don't play it.
Yeah... the power scaling of retail is quite nonsensical. At the end of one expansion you're wearing gear with world-shattering potential. And in the next expansion, an item given to you by some random fisherman is better than your legendary item :D If all of the plebs had given you their items an expansion sooner, and everything would've been so much easier. I do enjoy ESO's horizontal progression much more. It's far from perfect itself, as there are some "optimal" sets, which you don't need to change after acquiring them. But it does make more sense, and you can play new expansions, without feeling weaker. It's a lot more RPG orientated. For WoW, I think that gear in expansions can have the same stats as those of previous ones, but have glyph-like effects. Like specific gear changes how your abilities work. I also think that a more.... coherent... design of all of the systems is in order. I remember when I was playing Mists of Pandaria, my character was being trained in Kung Fu or something like that. And was defeating some giant monsters with it. But that was just as part of a quest, and had no consequences on my character itself. It would've been cool if my character could get some unique abilities from completing the questline. And yes, when you start a new character in retail, you are sent to the latest expansion immediately. Would've been nice if a player were allowed to experience the game in its logical order. Yes, there is Chromie, who can send you back to a previous expansion, but there is no initiative for you to do so.
just to further support your point, I'd point out that's actually how diablo 3 did it's seasonal gear equipment and while D3 is not popular the fact they made new and distinct gear to grind for each season that usually focused on intensifying some aspect of the class fantasy or ability-set in particular was considered a really good part of the game by most players. not only can it be done, but blizzard has done it themselves!
One of the things I enjoyed about vanilla, and to an extent in TBC, was the relevancy of raids throughout the expansion. Due to the way gear was built, you'd have items such as 'Onslaught Girdle' off Rag which people would seek out throughout the expansion. The only plate belt better than it dropping off a boss in the final raid of Naxxramas. There are many pieces of gear like this that people will continue running old raids. It provided a form of natural 'catch up' because often times you'd fill out raids and all the spare gear could go to newer characters while the few elite pieces were reserved for those carrying the raid. By the time WotLK rolled around, older raids completely lost their relevancy. The next raid tier had gear that was by all measure superior to the last and now no one ever ran the old content anymore.
Modern gaming seems to have arrived at this strange conclusion that QoL is always good. * Remove needing to organize your inventory and find space to fit things in your bags? Good. * Remove needing to identify items before you can use them? Good. * Remove needing to return to your class trainer to train your skills? Good. * Remove needing to clear old content to get to newer content? Good. * Remove needing to make permanent or even semi-permanent choices for your character? Good. * Remove needing to socialize and be cooperative with other players? Good. * Remove risk when running about the world? Good. * Remove the need to manually run from place to place? Good. * Remove inventory limits? Good. * Remove needing to go to the vendor to sell things? Good. * Remove falling damage? Good. Different MMOs go down this hole to different degrees, but most of the players, in general, seem to be under the impression that these types of changes can never be bad. This, to me, is absolutely nuts. The bottom of that hole is removing the need to play the game at all - idle games, or those mobile MMOs that play the game for you. Whenever you remove the tedium, the grind, the amount of time and knowledge and skill it takes to do something, you also remove the value and impact of that thing. Providing an LFG tool means removing the social element. Providing duel spec or free respecs removes the element of choice and customization. Removing attunements and providing catch up gear removes the the element of progression. Adding selectable difficulty levels to content removes the thrill of achievement and the shared experience of knowing everyone has gone through the same challenge. Some of those trade offs might be the right ones for one game or another, but it's silly to pretend that they aren't trade offs at all. To me, WoW lost its appeal when they added duel spec, and lost its last shreds of dignity when they added automated lfg. As long as any version of WoW has either of those two things, it can't be truly enjoyable for me.
All of the Things you listed are things that are nice for the first 20 hours of playtime and then become a nuisance and a waste of time. A lot of these constraints make a lot of sense in Singeplayer games. But not Multiplayer games. When you waste one players time you waste the the entire groups time because you needs groups to get meaningful progress. "Whenever you remove the tedium, the grind, the amount of time and knowledge and skill it takes to do something, you also remove the value and impact of that thing." Absolutely wrong. Retail has removed a lot of tediousness and meaningless grinding from the game. And yet it is still among the most skill expresssive MMOs we currently have. Being Able to sink a lot of time into the game doesn't equal skill.
@@tremendoshd2356 Well, clearly this is the line between which retain and classic fans are divided, yeah? The reason - or one of the reasons - why both groups think the other group's version of the game completely sucks :P
Well done video. Personally I wish for a TBC-era game engine/design with new worlds/zones to quest through, non-seasonally. Rushing to max level and then repeating daily quests is not experiencing the game world, its just doing chores.
I don't play any WoW anymore. If I was, I'd probably be playing Classic. TLDR: Many of Vanilla's problems were perfectly solvable, but just weren't until TBC (which rendered vanilla content irrelevant), new problems were introduced in TBC and Wrath, which ultimately directly or indirectly led to "old" WoW being destroyed by bad game design (and, reputedly, developer hubris). One of WoW Classic's problems, at least in Vanilla, is that a server requires a thriving and active population going through the leveling process to function correctly as a living world. Given enough time, the majority of any server's population is capped and the leveling zones become largely deserted. Finding groups to complete content that requires a group to complete becomes frustratingly difficult---on a server that is actively going through the initial "growth" process, you can stumble across a group doing quests in any given zone or 5 man dungeon, but once the bell curve of level distribution is firmly pegged on the far right, you can hang around the base of Jintha'Alor for hours on end and never find anyone going up to Save Sharpbeak or whatever. Endgame design was also an issue. Everything was a progression---you had to have MC gear to do BWL, BWL to do AQ, AQ to do Naxx---so every time they added a new raid tier, they were investing heavily in content that only an increasingly tiny percentage of the paying player base would ever see. Then you had the two strange outliers of ZG and AQ20...ostensibly, these were entry-level raids to help players who had completed gearing up at the dungeon-level instances (Dire Maul, UBRS, Strat, etc) to access MC. But the gear that dropped was only marginally better than 5-man dungeon items and were in no way particularly suited for use in MC, which was designed with Fire Resist gear foremost in mind. The fights were also FAR harder than anything to be found in MC. Even the trash was more difficult than many of the early MC bosses. Many of the issues were addressed in TBC. They largely fixed class design so that all class specs were potentially suited for raid content, something that REALLY should have been done in Vanilla. Also, the addition of badge gear helped people gear up for Tier 5 raids without having to run through them. This was contentious among hardcore players, but it really solved the issues that raid leaders had faced in vanilla post Tier 2---if you needed someone to fill your ranks, you either had to pinch people from other raids who were already geared (which is inviting drama), pick up already geared players who had quit other Tier 2 raids (which is REALLY inviting drama), or find promising players in Dungeon Set gear and run them through MC and BWL multiple times and pray the drops cooperate (which is a grind for everyone else and also causes drama). The introduction of Arenas in TBC is probably the worst thing to come from that Xpac, arguably one of the worst things in WoW ever, but those chickens didn't start really coming home to roost until Wrath. Wrath, where WoW inarguably peaked, introduced problematic changes late in the development cycle that were expanded upon in bad ways during future expansions. LFG, while hugely convenient (and insanely profitable for Tanks and Healers), singlehandedly destroyed server communities. This was even before introducing Battlegroups and other cross-server matchmaking. It was comical to see Dalaraan essentially deserted, except for huge crowds of people standing still on the steps of either bank. Late in Wrath, I had to put together an old school PuG at one point to run an Utgarde Keep dungeon, and half the group didn't even know how to get there. Another issue that really started to become prevalent in Wrath were Arenas that I mentioned earlier. They were starting to drive design; whatever flavor-of-the-month class/spec combo was dominating during the previous patch cycle would get the shit nerfed out of them. Even if their arena performance was in no way carrying over to their performance in PVE content, these nerfs inevitable very negatively affected classes in PvE content. Blizzard seemed to go from course-correcting to doubling down on bad decisions starting in Cataclysm, and that's where they lost me. The talent streamlining was overdone, and then instead of fixing that, they streamlined to the point of being unrecognizable in MoP. I quit WoW for the first time a month before MoP released, and I've only dabbled in anything WoW-related since then. I have been largely clueless to the events of most expansions since because I just don't care for retail anymore. I know a lot of people don't care, and some are left leaning, but the obvious political ideaologies filtering in to the overall stories (not to mention the infamous waifuing of Sylvanas) really repulses me. All that being said, if they found a way to implement Classic Plus in such a way that 1) Fixed class design as was done in TBC/Wrath 2) Repaired broken quests without radically redesigning and over-streamlining (looking at you again, Cataclysm) 3) Added more new 5-man content of varying difficulties (and appropriate gear level drops) 4) Redesigned itemization in the positive ways done in TBC and Wrath 5) Added in the positive Quality of Life changes (more races/classes, functional meeting stones, UI changes, etc). I would not even be against Horde/Alliance cooperative grouping---call it 'white flagging' ...I might go back. But this will never happen because it isn't low hanging fruit, and therefore isn't worth the investment from Blizz.
Back in the day I started playing retail TBC, and played through to the end of WotLK. I was able to play WotLK classic this time around. Personally, I found that leveling in classic is way more fun than it is in retail. However, the PVE end game in classic was extremely disappointing for me. Everything has been figured out and optimized to death. The meta is king. Talent point allocation and the gearing path are clearly laid out for optimization and you are expected to follow them if you raid in any capacity. Upon getting to level 80, I had a couple of weeks of rep grinding. Afterwards, outside of raid nights, I found myself mostly sitting in Dalaran waiting for a BG queue to pop or a daily dungeon group to join. This was my personal experience, and I know many of my guild members experienced the same thing.
WoW is special because it’s WoW. Other games can be fun and come close but it will never be WoW because so many people consider Azeroth to be a 2nd home. Classic gives you the chance to be a member of that society, to play a role in it to be a part of the nostalgia to come in 10 years when we think back on this. Retail is an arcade game but classic is something else
Wow has been in my heart for 20 years. i've seen the rise and fall of everything in it so far. what matters is how you choose to keep it in your heart, and bounce back while retaining what you hold dear.
@@MikeyJ232 Games referred to as arcade games are characterized by being easy to learn but hard to master. The controls are often not very complex, individual levels are usually short, and the difficulty starts off easy but typically culminates in a challenging level. These types of games require no prior knowledge and are designed to appeal to anyone who encounters them.
I don’t like taking a million years to level up and make it to end game. I enjoy the journey to an extent. But making an alt feels like climbing a mountain. I am a real adult and a dad and like to get laid. Which requires me to spend actual time with my woman. I don’t want to spend all my free time in a game. Retail I can get my RPG feels without being married to the game.
criss cross in the dump your opinion I toss. triss trass your opinion is trash. im sorry I just wanted to leave this obviously inflammatory comment because I think its funny. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it
one thing to note about the changes topic: Classic today is a solved game based on the very last patch Drums of War, when the game came out 20 years ago, it went through just as many, if not more changes than the current retail expansion (some changes back then even impacted how classes fundamentally played) during it's various patches.
It's missing one big point: skill issue. Most classic players aren't even good enough to play classic well, and retail is way more difficult. The average classic player can't even execute a 4 button rotation right while dodging fire.
@@HallyVee Retail pre-endgame doesn't matter, it's just a few hours of grind to get to the real game, just like leveling in Diablo, PoE, FFXIV, etc. The game starts when you finish the base content.
I've played WoW since 2005. I enjoy multiple versions and expansions of the game. Retail class design is so much more fun than the 1 button rotations of classic. Retail pvp is a blast (arenas, solo shuffle, battleground blitz)! Classic leveling is the only thing that's better.
I feel like retail definitely has some sick class design for some specs, but some specs i feel like are more fun in classic. And yes, nothing can beat retail PvP, its so fun.
Classic is a smooth car with 3 pedals a speed box and a wheel. Retail is an automated tram. Sure there might be lots of choices for where you want to sit or what you want to stare at... but it doesn't matter, you're going where it is, and the only thing you can control is whether you pull the cord at the right time.
@ imagine a man starting to play retail at this moment … he would be so confused and so lost either so much content that he eventually would feel confused and quit, classic is simple short and have savage world pvp where the strongest apex dominates, no fly mounts just gangs in world pvp, and your Guildies get involved much more
I play both. Actually, sometimes a little bit of each version. About retail, I would say that sometimes it feels like some kind of unfinished, wierd private server.
problem I have with retail is every class/spec feels and plays the same you are a tank? this is the buff that gives you armor, have to keep it up 100% of the times, these are your generators , these are your spenders, and you got a bunch of defensives, don't forget to use them you are a dps? these are your single target buttons and these are your aoe buttons, just press them and wait for procs for bigger damage, dont forget cds and defensives, or maybe do in classic every single class/spec has its own identity/way to play you are a hunter? your playstyle revolves around your pet , traps and kiting you are a mage? you got tons of utility and aoe and you can cc enemies effectively you are a rogue? your playstyle revolves around being sneaky and picking targets out one by one this is specially visible during leveling, if you dont use your kit like you should, you will have trouble getting further so you have to actually learn thats it for every new class you try , there was not a single time in classic I would just roll my hands on the keyboard and things just work , in retail tho thats viable for the most part cause everything is the same and you just spend like 99% of leveling in dungeon finder zooming through a dungeon just for that fast level cap run
As a player who plays a lot of retail. I feel like I have to disagree. The identities and playstyles of classes are still there. It's just that they aren't used in PvE alot. But in PvP you still do all of those things you described and every class has a very different playstyle.
Wow I feel the opposite. Warlock? Hit 1 bolt button over and over. Mage? Hit one DIFFERENT COLOR button over and over. I am not saying classic doesn’t have charm or class differences, but pretending rotation variety is anything but abysmal kind of shows that you’re not being very analytical
Lmao come on, this is definitely cope. I like classic for what it is, but the combat is the absolute weakest part of the game. Warlock? Press shadowbolt till OOM then spam wand or Lifetap into more SBs. Mage? Frostbolt till OOM then wand. Priest? Heal or Smite until OOM and wand. PvP is effectively the same thing. Warr/Sham, melee and proc windfury to 1 shot something. All of these things are repeat and kite until you cheese something to death. Each class in retail on the surface has builder spender concepts, but there is so much nuance in their kits that make the combat actually fun and engaging. You don't want to compare the classes from Classic to Retail because Retail objectively destroys classic class design. You don't roll your hands on your keyboard in classic because you almost always press 1 button, maybe 2 if you're fighting an orange mob and have to kite. And if you're rolling your hands on your keyboard in retail, you're not playing correctly and won't be performing what the class is capable of. The leveling experience in retail is definitely the weakest aspect, but that's because the game revolves around endgame and you only really start to utilize your kit once you hit max level. Sure, this shouldn't be the case and is a design flaw, but it doesn't change the fact that the depth of classes in retail is leagues and away better than classic.
@@PapaProne You make a very good point. The amount of gimmicks has increased over the years, making a paladin feel more like a paladin and a priest more like a priest in retail. But it seems like the majority of people miss one crucial point. In Retail, I can hit my head against the keyboard and never worry about death and even if I do fail, there is no feeling of a treat as I haven't spent any effort into being able to perform the challenge. All the gear and rotations are figured out for me and even if I do absolutely everything wrong, the person next to me doing everything right won't have a major difference in impact. This differs on the high end of content each season, but the majority of players are on equal ground. Classic suffers from the same problem nowadays, but for different reasons. The game is too old and everything has been figured out. But the possibility of failing, is still very present, as in 2004. For this reason hardcore is so popular, as we humans tend to feel more gratification, after suffering. The same way, a bottle of water tastes much better after completing a hike.
Eh, a new season in retail doesn't make your previous gear useless. If you are a competent raider and are raiding regularly, you can expect to be able to jump in the next season's raid immediately upon release...but at a lower difficultly. For example, if you are set up in all heroic level gear, you should start raiding at normal for the next season. This actually has a positive effect on the community because it reduces the chance of a guild becoming a farm for other guilds. Classic is great! I play it too....but if you want to challenge yourself and feel a sense of actual end-game accomplishment then you should stick to retail.
Well, you're right it doesn't make your gear completely useless, but it does make it not that relevant and it will be very quickly replaced. And yeah retail endgame is definitely more interesting and challenging in my opinion too.
The only thing I want to add is this, when I played classic 20 years ago, when you saw a player wear purples, even one of them, you knew that they had achieved something, a good player. Now everyone expects purples, high rewards. I played for many levels in greens only, jumped for joy at a blue, and if I remember correctly managed my first purple near the end of the burning crusade. I was a casual, social player. I appreciated the effort others must put in to get to end game, to see final boss fights and win. Now, as in society everyone must be winner, get a medal and be catered for. IMHO that’s not real life, we should celebrate the success of others. (I miss Thot-Bot) 😂
What makes a good player? What is "achieved something"?. In classic when i see a player in all purps 9/10 times they're an officer or a GM in their respective guild. In Retail, depending on their Title or ItL or IO score, i know that person is mechanically blessed at the game.
I switch between classic and retail - sometimes I just get an itch for one. Retail I pvp somewhat competetively and exclusively, then do some of the other content (checking out new features such as delves, even trying timewalking dungeons and the current anniversary event). In Classic wrath and cata I played somewhat similarly: blast through the gearing process and queue pvp. Probably prefer the gameplay of Wotlk slightly over Cataclysm and Retail, but the systems of retail make it so easy. I also love the questing experiences of Classic-Wotlk. The non-linear story-telling, needing multiple characters or discussing wtf is going on with others to get the full scope of the story is awesome. I think the story of the gnolls and kobols, developing into the Defias, eventually leading to Blackrock Mountain, Onyxia, and Nefarian, is amazingly well done. Similarly, more on the Horde side, the rise of the Silithid, how you are uncovering a threat of life-forms that are so different than the Azerothians we know, a slowly evolving and ominous unfolding of a threat that renders the Alliance vs Horde struggle futile and inane, eventually facing off with a God. Finding some new quests with serious implications or some nice contained stories of loss and triumph somehow touch emotional strings the modern-day story-telling, even when directly trying to move an audience and using tech such as rendered cinematics, just doesn't reach. Some of my favorite quests to this day exist in the category of Clarice Foster's ''Until Death Do Us Part''. That shit did more to me than Anduin finding back his light. Duskwood and Stranglethorn Vale alone are full of tragic touching stories that still have a redeeming beat of hope and redemption... and that's not even touching the lands ravaged by the plague. The world had a certain weight that made me care about characters and their fate. That said, I appreciate how WoW, since WotLK, has been made crazy accessible. I can gear up a character to be endgame-ready within a few in-game hours, rendering WoW a mix between an MMORPG and a MOBA. That convenience is antithetical to a classic MMO, where growth and development is integral, and requires real time to breathe and have the gravitas that make you excited about upgrades, and weirdly, have you bond with your character and the world they reside in.
Retail is really really awful. Also Flying Mounts completely fucked WoW, it stopped feeling like a big world, you dont lose yourself in it anymore. it turned it into an ADHD speedrun everything game. I dont see a lot of people talking about this point, but Flying Mounts played a HUGE role in WoW downfall.
The best thing with classic was no doubt impact of certain items and how you would see a character rocking certain items you knew that character would absolutely hurt fighting.
Retail is very disneyified - Childish cringe story lines, unappealing childish characters, overthemed overbloomed environments almost like youre playing Hello Kitty etc etc You ask what would need to change for me to pay up - A complete redesign but seeing how D4 did not hook me I doubt Blizzard has the talent for such a thing.
PVP Retail: becuase classes compare to classic is more balanced but i do wish it was WOTLK still since kinda alot of other issues in retail pvp PVE: im picking classic but again vanilla classic alot of the class designs is somewhat not finished: look at boomkins or arcane mages and i hope SOD would fix that so i can be both PVP/PVE there but PVP there is such a joke there and ofc my main class: mage is so bad now in season of discovery we are a PVE class purely now and somehow on PVP part we are a even more unfinished class and what it feels like then in Vanilla kinda why i am somewhat inbetween Retail/classic
Yeah! I kind of feel the same way. In retail I mostly enjoy PvP and only really do PvE for the cosmetic rewards. Then in classic I really like the chill PvE/levelling side.
@@shieldsftw i still wish for a vanilla + where class balancing on PVP is more focused : so no class(or even specs) is left behind and is "unplayable" in PVP but also PVE too but the reason i want balancing focused on PVP: if a broken class(underpowered OR overpowered) for PVE you are still "able" to play the game no matter if you play set overpowered or underpowered class or not BUT if a broken class for PVP you are unable to play the game unless you playing set powerful class yourself just see SOD with shamans 1v3-4 people in BGs and mages be a full PVE class now so its just worth it to die as fast as possible not even try to get a kill and not play the game Classeses become more Finished heck even balance classes around PVP BUT then balance the PVE content around the PVP balanced classes(since it will be easier than balance PVP around PVE balanced classes as they should have done at the first: look at rogue with unlimited Stealth timer: fine balance in PVE but in PVP all PVP games has a limit on stealth like time limit making it possible to make PVP servers 1 sided basically over longterm and why alot of people picking PVE server now and this is sololy becuase of 1x Class and people who 0 life griefing like this world PVP would be insane more healthy and a good concept if it was not for the Rogue´s Stealth being unlimited time and no need to be forced out of stealth for some time aswell as a higher level cant gank or help in any way to gank lower levels also need a fix for that not much else i feel like they need for a vanilla plus other then finish classes spells+talent trees to make them feel more "complete" ofc the dream would be like if they somehow merge vanilla/TBC/WOTLK content into like 1 big "expansion" and just call that for vanilla plus and scale down TBC/WOTLK stuff to lvl 60 and rework classes to be more completed heck even take a look on retail/modern wow class designs and put it in classic+ but not overdo it either too much ofc but some of the concepts is still nice like x2 crits on fire mage = making pyroblast usefull in middle of a boss fight instead of only as starter spell(even highest DPS caster class+spec feels abit unfinished in vanilla why is pyroblast even a thing in the talent tree if not even gonna use it?) also add Haste stat to vanilla plus please some specs can use it to become NOT useless this way i dont think we "need" a era server for TBC/WOTLK as much and slipting the wow playerbase even more since this can be a good alternative: make TBC/WOTLK content the "current" content at same time as vanilla on a server and i kinda just want to play 1x version for both my PVE/PVP needs instead of 2x versions of WoW Currently i just use Retail WoW as my "equal" to login on a Moba Pick the "Character" i wanna play(aka a Class+spec) and just join battlegrounds(not much arenas i prefer objective base pvp) so i can kinda ignore alot of Retail wow´s issues in this video basically and for WoW Lore: didnt read any text on anything in vanilla and still dont in Retail or skip cutscenes (and can confirm alot of people do this) ofc still important but that part can be very much ignored compare to the others
@@DoctorFlux Interesting ideas! Lets hope they make a classic +. I feel like SoD was a beta mode for testing what players would like in a classic +, so maybe its coming!
@@shieldsftw PVE in SOD is fine even for a "beta" but man PVP is such a pain it became so bad with balancing they made x2 mark of honor if losing AB battleground and the ONLY core BIG difference on AB battleground is the paladin/Shaman so instead of "playing" the game for honor and rewards (and im one who play PVP for Fun aswell as is a Gnome Mage main) the meta became: alliance Dont play the game at all and lose as fast as possible becuase cant do much against Shamans anyway Horde wins as fast as possible This case here show why PVP balancing is more important then PVE balancing for a game that has both things beside you can anyway only raid 1 time a week per char. thats like afew hours(if not mins.) and yet too focused on balancing that over a thing you can do 24/7: PVPing becuase what to do if you dont feel like leveling a new char.? and after you are so much geared you only need stuff from current raid you can only join 1x times per week : why PVP is the real end game even more in vanilla yet 0 balancing for it Retail also still have the same issue : so many AOEs it kinda made my polymorph kinda useless but classes needs that many AOEs becuase of m+ now and PVE content so rip using my poly smart now in PVP but atleast in retail ALOT more PVE content you can do per char. so PVP is not the true real end game and the only thing
@@DoctorFlux Yeah I've always felt like PvP is the real endgame for both classic and retail. Having a balanced PvP while still having meaningful class benefits is really important. I hope they focus on that.
My one issue with Classic is unless the server is highly populated and fairly new it makes leveling really suck because eventually no one runs the leveling dungeons, and there’s not enough quests without the dungeons so you have to grind mobs. On the flip side, if there’s too many people you end up sitting around half the time for mobs to spawn and trying to not get ganked. There almost never seems to be a happy medium where there’s a perfect balance of people and if there isn’t the experience suffers so much.
Most (not all) classic players contradict themselves. They say they hate the quick leveling in retail and want to enjoy the world and storylines in classic, but then they end up spamming scarlet monastery and zf all day. They say the hate M+ with its focus on execution and efficiency, but on classic they attempt to gather every single world buff before the raid to blitz through it. The last answer really says it all. For most classic players, classic being better than retail is not an opinion based on careful consideration of both games. It's a religion.
That's because he asked "redditors". They have no idea what they're talking about and they're all exist in their tiny echo chamber, saying whatever they want to say.
That's a pretty bad take as far as I'm concerned. First of all , MOST classic plays absolutely do not level through dungeon spamming. That is just an absurd statement which is blatantly false, and I don't even know where you'd get this idea. A good amount of players do, especially on a Fresh launch, because they're sweaty, and want to get ahead of the pack, but even then it's a minority, and the further into the server progression you get, the fewer people you see doing that. Second, and I've never actually played M+, since I quit retail before it was even introduced, but from what I can tell, you do at least have some point here, but the players who have this min-max mentality you describe, is still in the minority, and MOST people do not fall into this category. But even if you do compare M+ to the few guilds who actually do push their raids to do fast clears, there's a pretty significant difference between the two, as with M+ you have to adopt that mentality or you can't participate in the content, and reap the rewards, while in classic raids speedrunning is completely optional. You can do the exact same raids and get the exact same rewards for doing MC in four hours as you do from clearing in in thirty minutes. There is literally no in-game reward from speedrunning raids in classic, it's completely optional, and people do it just to push themselves, and not to get the best gear available. And if you chose to take a more casual approach, which MOST people do, then they still get the same exact gear. So as you can see, there is a pretty clear and inherent difference between M+ and classic raiding, and even speedrunning the raids. Also, world buffs are 100% optional, and not only that, but getting them benefits not only the speed runners but also casual players. All you need to do is log on a few minutes before the raid and you can get the free Ony buff, and now your raid is even easier to clear and more casual friendly, and again, I don't know if MOST people even bother doing that. Those stats are probably available on Warcraftlogs, but I can't be bothered to look it up. And last, but not least, the religion take is just brain dead, and I don't even know what sort of arguments you could possibly come up with to support it. I log on to retail, and I get bored with the leveling, and dungeon rushing, and sense of character progression (or lack there of) and get confused and overwhelmed by the two decades of mechanics and systems that have been stacked on top of each other, and all he dozens and dozens of other issues the game had. In fact, I log in, and I already don't feel like playing it, because I know exactly what's waiting for me, and I don't want any part of it. Meanwhile, I log in to Classic, and I just love playing the game, and can play for hours every day for years on end. The retail experience is just not for me, and that's how so many other people feel as well, but it had nothing to do with being religious about it. I play other games as well, because they''re fun to me, but Retail is not fun to me, so I don't play it. If they made it fun again (which is probably nearly impossible at this point) then I would have no issue playing it again, after all, why would I? I even pay for the subscription already, so that would make no sense at all.
Not all classic players spam dungeons and some of them would quest if the leveling zones weren't so packed with players. Also M+ is a very different type of gameplay than popping buffs to see big numbers. Only a small subset of the classic community focuses on speedrunning, even most guilds that are more hardcore than semi-hardcore don't do speedruns at all. Even then, speedruns are a very different vibe from high end M+. Just like retail, there are players at every level doing very different things, it wouldn't be very accurate to say otherwise.
My main problem with retail is the mindset of the players. Dungeons are just go go with no talking and if you fall behind or make a mistake they kick you. In classic dungeons are a two hour experience where everyone will make sure you get to finish your quests then ask if you need help with something else after.
the difficulty in classic specifically without modern tools icy veins etc ( you had thottbot but thottbot sucked and most computers couldn't run wow AND the internet in a seperate tab) was in preparation and knowledge. today classic seems overly easy because you have access to all the info.
I love both games. In retail I love the mythic grind and doing wow arena and trying to grind grind high end game content however I would go a step further for retail. In my opinion they should get rid of levelling all together in retail since its just an annoying little chore for my alts to get through. Where as in classic I love the more slow and chill approach to the game and especially in hardcore classic with the high stakes play style. Classic wow is hard in some cases but it is not complex like retail is so the little bit of difficulty combined with the MMO aspects makes it a great game.
The most significant difference is that in retail you can have quite hard challenges (mythic+ dungeons, raids). In classic the level of dedication necessary (guild, with regular raid appointments) is higher, and the level of challenge isn't particularly high. I believe retail goes too far in terms of complexity and providing simplification... actually a lot is badly designed... but a lot is good too. I enjoyed classic WoW a lot (multiple times) in the past. Currently I stick to retail because I need interesting (challenging) gameplay.
I'm an only retail player. There's a lot I miss from earlier expansions. Weapon training, having to pay your trainer to use more weapons, Hunters having to level their pets. Mounts were only available in later levels. But I stick to retail because I like a progressing story and it's exciting and a thrill to enter a new expac. I do dislike the lore have become soft and too emotional and I can't help but link it together with current times with people having to be shielded to protect their feeble emotions from negativity. On the note of players who dislike this and that system and gearing, I often think if those players really DO want to play an MMO. They speed through the content and gear as fast as possible, to be the best PVPer/PVEer because they like to see big numbers, and I wonder if playing LoL or Counter Strike would be a better option for them.
2:24 I feel like saying "retail is moving further and further away from the MMO part and leaning more towards an RPG" isn't really true. It may be leaning away from an MMO, but it's also leaning away from an RPG. Honestly, it's leaning into being an online lobby game. This is coming from someone who still likes retail (and classic), but I definitely think classic is more RPG-like than retail is.
as someone who primarily plays tanks I got tired of the toxicity on day 1 of new content releases - if I dont already know a dungeon because I played the beta or PTR I'm a giant piece of shit according to most people I end up in dungeon finder with. At least in classic I already played it so I know the instances and am less likely to get shit on for not knowing exactly what I'm doing my first time through.
My opinion, as someone who started playing WoW in Cata, I am unfortunately used to the antisocial group finder of Retail. I was only in a raiding guild for a year in BFA before it fell apart when the game started dying. Before that, I’d play by myself, mostly LFR and occasionally Normal raid / M+ but only really to gear up to the threshold I needed to do basic things. I had a few friends throughout the years, they come and go, my current friends that I’ve known for years don’t play WoW but I’m trying to convince them to try - they say the graphics are the problem for WoW as a whole. With that said, I think my only issue with Classic is just that I started playing too late, Classic is simply a different game to me, I prefer the faster paced leveling for the endgame. I’m glad people who grew up with Vanilla were able to get what they wanted, though. I still watch clips of Classic to experience it through others, but it’s not for me at all. And that’s okay :)
To me, they just need to shorten the quests in retail to make them quicker to do and give players an express route to experience a storyline through each expansion so within let’s say 10 quests you could do the whole storyline for a single expansion if it’s older if it’s a new expansion, of course you have a more played out version with longer quest more things to do, etc. but older expansions you just need Crib notes.
I always find people's perspective on this can be so wildly different. People online, in the forums and in videos always claim that classic is all about community but when I play it I get a lot more "kill your own mob" or spend hours looking for a group to do anything. There are communities in classic but they are more clickish than they are inclusive. No one will help unless there is something in it for them. When it comes to retail there are also a lot of communities for a lot of different things. They just aren't in the world as much for leveling purposes. When it comes down to it the community is the same. Retail just has more content to do.
Classic will always be better in my mind, but when I start a new character, I go nah I’m good. Playing classic just isn’t feasible with current lifestyle, speaking for myself ofc
ok i want to weigh in on this I personally play both, I love TWW and for the most part unironically enjoyed DF. But, I also played in 2004 vanilla and got scarab lord in 2019 classic. I hope that makes it clear i really REALLY love classic. hell im playing SoD/hardcore as i type this out. with all of that intro out of the way let me cut right to it. Classic is THE WoW experience if you play it correctly. This game is that good show of old school mmo play. as you said in the video Exp, Leveling, and progression looping that made it so addicting. BUT, only when you make a decision in this crossroad. Are you gonna play meta or are you gonna go for the slow "meaningful journey"? do you want parses or do you want to experience the game for what it should be: a social, old dnd 2/3.5 edition game with a "Living world"? BOTH are valid but you have to make that decision because some people are for that and some just want parses and i have learned over the years they just don't play well together. over the course of classic 2019 my raid managed to make both work until we hit the wall that was AQ after grinding scarab lord and naxx did us in. this was partially due to people wanting to change from a casual clearing team into something a bit more competitive. my raid team at the start had about in Its 40 man comp 12 warriors but we also had 2 deep prots and 2 impale prots off the cuff and no one did the meta fury/prot till much later ( I wanted to do it) but the kicker for bosses like majordomo we had a Prot paladin who became one of my closest friends of all time. we using this tactic got us so much flak from our server because its not meta. but for a solid few months we had the fastest kill on majordomo with this on our server and we never had issue with the boss outside of a few unlucky teleports. as time went on we even went as far as to let my prot paladin friend tank bosses using 3000 symbols and spamming greater blessing of kings on all 12 warriors at once the buff aggro was so large, we broke our threat meters it was hilarious. we would never have had that experience if we never played outside meta decisions. now the other side we had a few raid teams in our guild. we had one that were meta hard pumper players going for big parses. did they have as much fun? i would argue even more some times but, its because they all signed up to do so and love the rush of speed running raids. now for Retail i feel the game has better controls, better features, and better options for play. Dynamic is a word I would also throw in its very much with recent expansions even starting to feel like a 5th edition DnD game. in blizzards run for getting more people to play they made a super diverse game with plenty of options for every type of player.... except the full on slow social mmo player who wants what classic offers but with these features as options and again this, like classic is partially on the players. let me explain. I was also once in the camp of most retail hating classic players around WoD sunk my love for retail. i still played until BFA dropped my love for the game in to the depths. it then became my opinion that the social aspects of the game were destroyed by LFG and LFR. They were the key culprits of ruining social feeling and ruin MMOs....and then i played FF14. no joke i saw they had SEVERAL LFG queues and i was gonna quit on the spot. im glad i did not the game is great has social feeling even with random dungeons. Because that community still did and do their best to make the most out of meeting each other even for a single run. with a simple o/ in the chat to break the ice I felt "damn this is pretty good" once the dungeon was over i even got to add people to friends list because we hit it off in conversation because people were willing to just say hi and shoot the shit. it proved to me you can still have random queues and still have a social game the players just have to be willing. honestly lately i been seeing that more and more in wow retail but it still needs time to naturalize I think. I say this in mind with the fact that you are definitely pressing more buttons in retail than classic or FF14 so time to stop and chat breaks flow a little too much. this can still happen in those games but waiting on mana for example helps with that too it gives time for that reprieve and time to talk. I might update this later if I feel I have more to talk about
I feel the need to remind people of the power progression between Vanilla and Burning Crusade where first zone greens outperformed old end game content and how having reputation with any of the older factions meant nothing in the new content. - That's how you kill player enthusiam
@@Teegetraenktrinker You must be a blizzard employee to see no issue that your last end game content that required 40 man raids are all useless in launch day.
Retail is overstimulating, there's too much crap going on, we like wow classic because it's relaxing and you get to enjoy the open world, the ambience sound and everything you do matters.
I recently created a hunter in reailt, and decided to chromie to boralus. Well, no people to do the dungeons that are required by the story. No problem, i can come back after 5 levels and solo the dungeon, right? Right? Big Nope! The dungeons scales. I can't solo it. Can't find people to do it. If i dont use chromie, then the dungeon stops scaling to max level .... but it keeps scaling to the expansion level (60), so i'am obliged to outlevel the expansion to solo the dungeons. Instead of a fun storyline, now i have a story that cant be completed until i rush outside, levelup, come back waaay overleveled, and solo it.
@iamjustkiwi i usually play sessions of one hour. One hour in group finder and no group found. When i say "no people to do the dungeons", lfg is included.
I agree with you 100%. They're just two different games that I enjoy for different reasons. I like the competitive style of retail but once I reach my goals for the season, I like to chill and play Classic
If you feel like you are levelling too fast in retail and don't have the time to experience the bigger stories their is a NPC in most major cities that You can go to that will stop your character from levelling until you are ready to move onto the next expansion or zone of the one you are currently playing in.
I may be wrong but it feels wrong to compare the progression of classic leveling to the progression in retail of new raid tiers and xpacs dropping. As a classic player, I’d argue that while my MC gear had me feeling like I was on top of the world it was still a challenge to do BWL. Basically a new raid dropped and my power needed to increase to play that new content. Which is how retail works when a new season or xpac drops
As someone who left the MMO community after EverQuest, because I got married and started a family, I have often wanted to enjoy WoW. There is clearly a tone of solid content that I have only scratched the surface of, by playing solo for a few months every two to three years. Thus, my take may be wildly different than most. What I want most is something like a time locked progression server. With classic style fixed zone levels, but the more polished retail engine. I would get of any group finding tools that automatically transport you to the group. Tools that help people find groups are great, but everyone should have to travel to the dungeon/raid, so that the scale of the world is always felt and portals are relevant. Or to say it another way, I want to experience the full scope of the content that is WoW, but the classic presentation seems dated when compared to retail. Though the Disney like story telling aspect of retail is definitely a downgrade.
Outside of systems: wow classic is popular because ppl are generally comfortable playing an old nostalgia version of the game & themselves, where they do not feel forced to min/max and even if they do the barriers to entry are small towards min/maxing, more about gear. For ex:they can use an auto rotation addon like Hekilii without someone telling them that it is using an old APL, the APL is practically mold on the wall. They do not want to be dragged out of their familiar comfort zone, they do not like conflicts and that is it. It is a bunch of smurfs running around in a circle.
I took a long break from WOW retail. So I tried the custom WOW game Project Ascension which shares a lot of the same things as retail and found a lot of what the classic players found as annoying. The side systems were just confusing and half the time i had no idea how to make them work. The level scaling made it impossible to farm for ore and made leveling my character feel pointless. What i hated about retail was at some point flying in the new zones required you to increase your reputation with factions and that was just a grind of ridiculous proportions! I maxed out my level before questing all of the new zones making the other zones feel kind of pointless. The seasons changing your gear was stupid. The Garrison building in Draenor at first felt like old Warcraft but then became just boring and limited. However I like the group finder for raids and dungeons. I like collecting mounts.
I think the main thing that classic has going for it is the leveling curve. Like, sure, getting to experience endgame is fun, but after not playing for years I wanted to run back through some expansions. I ran through Legion recently and was forced to lock my level if I didn’t want to instantly one shot everything, and I hadn’t even completed half the expansion before hitting 69. I locked my level and enjoyed the story, but all sense of progression halted. Characters level too fast imho, I want to experience the parts I missed how they were intended, which realistically I guess is too much to ask, but if we leveled at a slower rate, I think a lot of that “mmo feeling” would be restored.
Good overall video, ive been playing since 05 and i still enjoy leveling. Retail is just...lonely. Hard to describe the feeling, but whenever i made new connections on retail i inevitably run into a problem of not being able to push past a wall and it kinda fizzles the relationships. Getting hardstuck on a +12 jade temple for something simple just kinda made things wierd as i would regularly play +18 etc. Additionally i would like to mention that classic is not finished. There is still so much room to fit in new quests, areas, dungeons, raids, and most importantly just cool loot. I dont mind going to MC a million times even if naxx is open, but the loot has gotten stagnant and fighting over it also has burnt out many friends. I personally seriously burnt out during legion because the the legendary that was 30% of my dps was one of the last ones i got despite being ret pretty much the whole time. No matter how hard i pushed myself i let my team down because i couldnt mathematically put out an extra 15-20% more not due to my lack of skill but RNG. There is alot of loot we could add to classic throughout the 1-60 range, and finally break the edgemasters curse. Green quality ranged weapons with hit chance existed since vanilla in the database but never implemented leading to an impending doom of efficiency. There is little option to fill those gaps and the big pieces people really want just dont drop. I dont have a good answer for a healthy RNG system for raid loot but what we have in classic is not the best as we disnt know better in the early 2000s.
A lot of the classic fanbase wants to be able to have the best of the best, problem being its quite easy, so its jam packed with identical characters geared to the gills who all look the same. At least in retail there's new stuff to aim for in fairly frequent chunks. Some people view that as having their effort to get their previous gear rendered meaningless but i genuinely don't get that. If you got to enjoy being strong for a while you still got your enjoyment eithout being forever done either
I love WoW classic, especially TBC and WotLK. Personally, if there are some things I appreciate from retail, they are the graphics, the attack and spell casting animations, and transmog. I believe these two features from retail don´t break the feeling of playing in a living, classic world; they just make it more graphically updated according to the modern days.
My least fave thing about retail is that everything becomes worthless a patch later. In classic there is 5-man loot that’s an option till essentially naxx. Diamond flask, HoJ, some hit stuff, etc. same with raids DFT from BWL will take most melee to BiS. There’s a reason to do more than current content for gear and helping people get gear.
I've played both, enjoyed both. But I prefer Retail for the gameplay. And more fast paced combat. The graphics. and dragon flying are huge win. I'm a PvP main i enjoy that as my end game. I actually enjoy leveling new toons through questing/dungeon griding. But it is WAY more relaxful and fun to world quest in classic by FAR. As what killed most and PvE for me in retail was the level scaling with monsters as you feel that you don't get stronger getting more gear till your max level.
The issue is mentality. I'm raid leading a guild that is casual PvE since BFA. We're clearing HC every tier and we're avoiding the hell out of mythic. We could do some mythic. Over the years I could probably make CE group. But it brings so much potential drama that it's not even worth it. And every single time someone asks me "what spec should I play" I always tell them "whatever You like". And when people are telling me only meta can do HC or only meta can do "highest rewarded m+" that are +10 at this point on time I know it's just a skill issue. +10 and HC raid can be done in every single spec in this game. Not super fast, it has to be progressed. But I can easily say it's doable. I played classic a little, but endgame without guild was just hellish. With guild You just go, clear everything easy AF and get bored. But with pug? Those ppl will bitch out after single wipe and wouldn't like to progress. And while on retail it is also common, there is just so many realms to get new ppl to pug that it's way less problematic. And while I agree that lvling in retail sucks, story is really nice, but one have to actually read it, not only watch those flashy cinematics. Most of the points talked about in this video are spot on. Yeah You can't expect to leave retail for even a single season and come back knowing what to do. And yeah older zones are "dead" so I can't blame anyone for choosing classic. And yet some people just love to paint retail as the worst thing. It's paced differently, and it is harder to keep up, but in the end YOU as a player decide what is Your endgame, and that's it.
This if you have some sort of an organized group you can do Heroic Raid and +10 till +13 Key without a Meta specc. Its more often bring the player not the class but the mentality and every streamers tier list tell them to reroll to a meta specc to suck badly at it because they don't know how to play it.
I like both, but ever since Hardcore released It's by far my favorite. The stakes are way higher so people actually feel the need to work together and coordinate and pay attention to the game. People dying means that the early-game always has players to group with and populate low lvl dungeons, making the world somehow feel much more alive and less stressful as you won't worry about being behind the wave of initial players. People also cooperate a a lot more naturally, sometimes without anything in return and frequently kill eachother's tagged mobs.
Healers also feel way more rewarding and impactful, Healing someone from near death is literally saving their life, and passing a fortitude buff is a literal blessing to the other person to stay alive.
Yeah the constant flow of new characters in hardcore does make the game feel even more alive.
@@shieldsftwVanilla WoW about the Exploration and adventure Journey of leveling , Retail more about fast leveling and end game, what makes old school classic better , even the classic gameplay more methodical and takes more strategy , retail fast high number bashing gameplay
Hardcore? Do you mean permanently dead?
Vanilla vet here, from a pserver. I get the hardcore appeal I really do but most of us like to afk and smoke or eat so we just aren't compatible for that high stakes lifestyle
I get it tho
@FunkiestChickenlawl Hardcore is very damn stupid...and a BIG WASTE OF TIME! You die you delete your character...such a stupid concept
Retail feels like single player action RPG with very large lobby, classic feels like world to explore and have adventures with other players
True!
For me retail even feels like a beat em up game tbh, you pull 20 mobs and aoe with tons of visual effects, it just feels random compared to 1v1 classic
@@Fff-tz5ik Retail is a bit more chaotic and more AoE focused, true.
I only play single player games and even I prefer classic. (Thankfully, repacks are a thing) :P
Except you don't. Most of the players are heavy min-max and thus skipping the adventure part and getting straight into the meta. The "adventure" is just an illusion.
@3:34 this isn't just a retail problem. classic players are just as bad at trying to just clear things as efficiently as possible. if you're not bis/meta slaving, there's a good chance you aren't making the raid. even with sod, people were gear checking in phase 1 for the bfd raid. so its not really a retail vs classic thing, its just on the community as a whole.
I mean yeah, you're right but I feel like classic endgame content CAN be cleared without being meta. Where as in retail the gear actually matters alot in progress.
@@shieldsftw But then it already starts with classes and specs. Not just in raids but also Mythic+. Lower tier specs are almost always ignored, when there is a better performing spec. That itself is not the worst thing, but the fact that people try to min-max every little detail, have no patience and also try to depict the top 1% of player in m+ or raid to the casual. Like, a lower end spec can still perform for most casuals, but is still viewed as incredibly bad from the start.
@@shieldsftwyeah it’s about perception. People think they want classic…
@shieldsftw they both can be. Normal for sure and possibly heroic level raids in retail can be cleared without playing meta builds and not having bis gear. The only real spot you need that is if you're doing mythic, and that's where the issue comes in. Most expect a mythic level of players for any type of difficulty. Everyone always sets the bar of expectations to the higher limits of the game. It's not as rampant in classic since you only have the one difficulty of raid. But a good majority of people want to min max it so much that if you do something in 5 minutes instead of 3, you're just going to be overlooked. Or there's "why have you not been running xyz to get xyz gear" "where's your world buffs?" "omg why are you playing that spec? Don't you know the other one is more dps?" Granted that last bit is more of a game balancing fault, but the point still remains.
just create a guild and bring all the greens to your raids as much as you want, lets see how that goes
I was too young to play WoW when it first came out and I'd always felt like I missed on something, so I gave WoW a go this year. I tried the first 20 levels free trial on retail WoW and I hated how just hitting level 10 they give you mounts, specially flying mounts, and how you've barely played the game and they throw gold at your face. I got a subscription and I gave classic a WoW, and it feels like a total different game. Currently playing the new fresh anniversary classic PvP server and I had so much fun. I'm excited that I'll get to experience TBC next year and maybe WoTLK in the future. Retail would need to undo so many "QoL" features for me to consider playing it...
Only QoL classic would benefit imho is the transmogs, since it's just the visual :)
I played WoW from 2005 till 2011, stopped at mid Cataclysm. Wish I was in your shoes. Vanilla and the first two expansions were a great time.
That’s awesome to hear a new player finding favor in the classic version. There’s a huge community for a reason. Glad you made it
Spending an entire season grinding conquest gear, getting so close to finishing my gladiator set, only to have the green honor gear replace it turned me off from retail wow endgame completely
Haha, thats the retail seasonal resets for you! xd
I actually feel the opposite and when I finish my PvP gear grind I get a bit bored. The PvP gear system in retail fixes a lot of the problems I have with feeling left behind in classic PvP where it is clearly an uphill battle against those who get to endgame first.
In a casual dungeon/raiding and BattleGrounds: if I am under geared in PvE content; Sure people might get annoyed, but it isn't end of the world. But being under geared in PvP content is much more disheartening as you die over and over.
Wow isn't really a pvp game tho
Do explain why it’s not please.
@@Obliviell cause PvP is a side quest on the main game. always has been. when a new axpansion comes out, do see the battlegrounds/arenas? no. you see the new zone/raid to do.
I like classic more but prefer dungeon finder over spamming chat and waiting hours to do a fkn dungeon. It is an unpopular opinion within classic players but I just love the convenience of the finder.
I agree. Retail has lost that something that classic has. Classic feels like a world. Retail does not.
Yes as most of it players,i for example already adult and with child,so i dont have so much time for lvling etc,so i prefer more session type games,retail is more session like game.
Classic feels like a small world :x
@@Scuuurbs the Classic world isnt small at all, it just likely feels small when you dragonride over the entire map in 5 minutes. But thats because the game wasn't originally designed to be perceived this way, you were supposed to see the world from the ground
@@Teegetraenktrinker The perception of the world around is down to YOUR perception. in Retail the world IS bigger than classic. You just don't perceive it that way because of flight. but if you choose to go at it like its classic. Trust me done it from time to time. Expansion areas like in Dragonflight are massive. If you want to explore, and find things off the beaten path, there is drastically more like that in the new zones, caves, toys to be found, rares, and so on.
But yet again. in retail getting to all of this is faster, because flight. For instance. if you fly to Valdrakken, from the waking shores. 1 mint to 1min and a half flight. If you want to walk it/ground mount it. you looking at a classic like expedition, because, you will have to traverse through all 4 zones just to reach the Hub city. Unless there is a path I never found, even though waking shores and Thaldraszus are neighbors, unless you flight there is no path to walk between them.
Plus 1 to 60 makes it so ever content is relevant
I simply don’t enjoy games nowadays that revolve around low attention spans and fast rewards. I love the concept of grinding for an armor or weapon upgrade or the lore behind most classic quests in general are worthy of full length movies or Netflix series. Retail is my like hanging out with my ADHD 7 year old niece, Classic is having a beer with my brother while fishing.
I also want that gear that I worked for to stick with me. Nothing breats having Hand of Justice drop.
Lmao sure bud, not only is grinding BORING. Its a huge tome sink, a sink that I dont have anymore. On top of that ive done it already.
@ when you pay for my subscription I’ll take your opinion into consideration. Piss off
@maxpowers4436 retail is way grindier / designed worse for actual casual players.
You do get daily and weekly boosts yes. But you do not have permanent upgrades.
Missing out on the weeklies and dailies slows you down extremely
Once you decked yourself out, the srason is over already and the gear becomes worth less than avg. Questing greens.
You have to grind considerably more for indivdual rep etc in classic. But once you did, youre done and due to basically no daily / weekly supports, you get the full rewards when you manage to play. Maybe you got a whole weekend and then 2 weeks no time for wow, in this situation vanilla actually does become casual friendlier
Oh and you can do every content with friends, even if theyre not top players.
I rather have fun with good guys instead of pushing keys with idiots who think they invented the world while constantly griefing
@@maxpowers4436you have the time. You just choose to “sink” it into retail and convince yourself that what you’re doing is somehow not a time sink
Didn’t play wow for 2 years. Lasted 2 weeks on retail before going back to classic era. Just started again on fresh classic today
Fresh hyype!
Fresh got me back to play wow again
I believe all the instanced environments play a crucial role in the world's feeling, perhaps if they removed most realms and made a couple mega realms with less instanced areas, etc, it would make the world feel like one.
Yes! Bigger realms and less shards/layers would be awesome if they can make it not laggy (which i don't think they can unfortunately).
I tried playing classic again during the pandemic. I much prefer the feel of classic as I started off in TBC. However the leveling time from 1-60 is so absurdly slow I just don’t have the time to commit to that anymore . Retail has its downsides but it’s a lot easier to spend an hour in game and actually do some activity that you like. Classic grind I just don’t think matches with a lot of peoples lifestyles now with families and responsibilities
I don't think there's anything wrong with not hitting 60 though. And the incremental experience of 30-40 is better than retail at cap still.
You're missing the point. There's no rush to get to 60
@@laoch5658 Well, he did join in TBC, and the way the expansions are set up does mean that everything before TBC is useless/ almost no interaction. That is the biggest mistake Blizzard made: with every Xpack all previous content was pointless.
@@laoch5658 you might be missing his point. An activity he likes could be raiding, something locked behind 100 hours of leveling in classic.
@ here is my problem, I enjoy the leveling process of classic and not rushing but when I spend a few hours getting a half of a level I’m not satisfied signing off. Whereas retail I can hit a dungeon or do BGs for an hour or 2 and feel like I accomplished something and got my fix . It may just be me and how I approach the game nowadays but I think the classic design of no group finder , and just the amount of time it takes to do things just doesn’t really work for me anymore.
Lowkey been loving the skinning and leatherworking professions in the war within, its very fun and has quite alot of depth to immerse in, wish they brought that into classic expansions too.
Skinning/leather working is definitely great
in regard to the social interactions side of it, I feel the opposite. Classic is way more toxic when trying to engage with unknown content compared to retail, and I have found loads of chill people just by standing around in org talking in /say or /1 chat, or using group finder to join raids and being invited to discords. Classic felt like everyone had some sort of hidden agenda anytime you tried to group up with others and it's no longer about having fun, it's about downing a raid asap so that you can get to this week's loot drama.
You're not exactly wrong. I levelled a character in retail and I was surprised that the players, while normally silent, were very friendly when they did start talking and were more then willing to dungeon spam with noobs. World chat was also cordial. There's just less of a need to talk in retail than classic and for someone who doesn't like to make first contact it can come across as cold. In Classic RDF many people will straight up ignore you.
yup classic always felt off putting to me, everyone mix/maxxed everything
Have you tried LFG in retail? Imagine new player try to find a group to do m+ or PvP arena with no exp
@@anacronrealz There is still a lot of guilds in the game that are accepting new people. Especially RP realms have some nice community guilds that can help you get started and through the content, the major problem with retail is it's seasonal structure. Because it's so seasonal, at a certain point all of the casuals get their stuff done or they hit their milestone mark and go to play other games because there really isn't much else to do if you are already satisfied with your gear/rating/raid progression. At a certain point you are left with 80/20 split between Min/maxxers and the few casuals left playing because it's the only game they play which makes finding groups even more awful.
@@anacronrealz LFG in retail is so much easier and friendlier than classic if you don't have parse or any records/connections, all you have to do is literally ask. If you don't have a guild or standing in a server's discord in classic you may as well just spin up a classic private server and play with bots as it will be a better experience.
Awesome video. Its very strange how they have the two divided. As someone whos played both and have friends who are still trying to learn the ropes of retail.
1. Retail has all of your spells assigned by your class while classic you get all of your class spells with few spec specific.
2. Levelling is so much faster in retail being more easily engaged with as a new player, while classic has a more delayed gratification and the real thrill is the journey not just hitting cap. I've actually had friends say that they were levelling fast enough since they weren't levelling every dungeon lol.
3. The mechanics are easier but also harder. All of your spells are just given to you on level up but rotations and kits are full of WAY more buttons then ever before rather then the utility or situational spells from classic. Most efficient damage rotations often have 2-3 buffs you're trying to keep active at all times. They highlight everything for you but its still a lot going on to a fresh wow player. Whereas a classic player might have to pay for each one of their skills but are more likely to learn the right circumstances to use them and they aren't expected to keep several effects active to make their class effective.
Classic might be larger time investment but I'll forever hold that its the premier way to experience WoW for new players and old due to its ease of entry.
Thanks! And well said, I agree!
I don't completely agree with this statement. I know a lot of people that play retail that absolutely despise classic because it is too slow and doesn't have enough going on. (Their words.) I think the choice of what version to play wow needs to be on a case to case bases because not everyone trying wow is going to enjoy super slow progression and 2 button rotations while watching swing timers, and not everyone will enjoy 10 button rotations while dodging 20 ground effects. Heck two of my friends refuse to play classic because they don't like leveling.
@@cloud132456 And theres nothing wrong with this. If I'm going for an MMO experience my PERSONAL opinion is that classic is the way to go. Retail has broke into a new genre of its own that I'm not sure is RPG anymore where gear at higher level is just better since every possible stat is pasted onto it and gearing decisions are simpler. Higher ilvl means better gear, whereas classic you have to ask whether or not this piece is better FOR ME. Its a more complicated RPG but I find it really engaging.
Edit: I'd almost classify retail as a more session based RPG like a COD-Multiplayer lobby style MMORPG then its roots as a classical rpg.
@@xuulis6165 I personally agree with classic being a better RPG, my thing is more that I can't say that Classic is the best way to experience WoW for every new player. If I'm talking to someone that enjoys fast pace games, but doesn't like playing games that are slower, I'm not going to suggest classic wow to them, I'd point to retail first, and if then they don't like retail I'll point to classic. That's all I really disagree with.
Both retail and classic are enjoyable, as you said, for their own reasons, I couldn't agree more. 🎉
Super cool video concept, structure, presentation and I definitely will be subbing to support another small WoW creator who has really solid and reasonable takes. 🙏🔥
Keep up the good work, may the winds always be at your back.
🌬💨🍃
Thank you! Means a lot to me!
It sucks that for so many people this is an extremely hot take. I'm a faithful retail player who has basically enjoyed all the recent expansions, but many classic fans act as though the modern game is an actual plague on humanity. I find classic too slow and unengaging to enjoy long term after reaching max on two characters, and its modern community is extremely unwelcoming unless you also want to keep doing the humor of the early 2000s, which i very much do not.
I dont mind leveling, I like the questing and running around but I also like getting to end game as quick as possible cuz its fun having my spells and synergies and talents. Leveling only feels like an annoying hurdle to me in retail cuz i mainly spam dungeons and the level scaling is abysmal. They NEED to make it cross faction and set in level ranges again. None of this lv 68 tank and lv13 healer and trash mobs just either being fodder or 1 shotting for no reason
Yeah, I don't really see a reason to keep random ques faction restricted in retail anymore since everything else is starting to be cross-faction already.
Personally, I love that retail has become more antisocial. I used to play back in WotLK and I agree that there was something magical to the whole social aspect, but as I grow older and have less and less time to spend in-game, I prefer to not play Facebook simulator 2004 and instead be able to jump in and out of content whenever I want - do a quick dungeon or raid, log out, and do something else. What I'd hate the most is having to spend 30 minutes of my 2 free hours after work having to talk to people and assemble a group. I talk to people all day long. I just want to kill some bosses and get loot.
For me there is no fun without the social system and old grinding, but this is because i have six months every year without work where i can do whatever i want
There are other games for you, this is an MMO.
@@gandalfdengra5580 lmao found the 50 year old classic player that ruins every m+ key in retail
Retail isn’t anti-social. It’s just a certain group of casual players that are.
Then you should play other games. This game was designed to be social.
This was a very good vid ngl :D It hits the mark quite well! Great job :D
Thanks!
I agree with your points 1, 3, 4, and 5. Retail is definitely endgame focused and is more complex. The MMO and Warcraft feelings are something that vary from person to person, but I agree with what you found. The point I (almost) completely disagree with though is the power progression. People in classic like to act like season are a problem but will refuse to acknowledge the difference in power from lvl 60 dungeon gear, BoEs, MC, BWL, AQ, and Nax. In retail going from one season to the next is no different than if you progress through the phases of level 60 at the rate they were released (unless you are pushing high keys but that is an extreme minority of players). Also all of the problems with power scaling while leveling are there in both versions of the game they just vary slightly. While in retail the average enemies are scaling with you, and you arguably feel yourself getting slightly weaker, the largest example of this is people CHOOSING to not replace a previous expansions gear while leveling either because of set bonuses or optimized stats. In Classic sure, when you gain 5 levels those elites that you had problems with 5 levels ago might be easier but you aren't any better at dealing with the new elites at your current level, and in many cases much much worse because it's hard to find adequate upgrades. Lastly, I don't think Classic actually respects your time more than retail, that's almost laughable. If you put in the time into retail you WILL get upgrades and WILL get stronger, there are no protections in place in Classic and no guarantee of reward for time spent, which is an argument I have seen in favor of Classic from Classic players "retail just hands out too much loot".
Classic fans seem to equate time to effort 1:1, but like...its just SLOW. Classic is objectively easy you just can't go at the same pace as in retail because you heal slowly, and dying means a very long walk to your corpse and a large repair bill. I levelled a warrior and druid to 60 when classic first launched, and rarely died because you learn your limits quickly. It actually sucks later on as well because all the "challenging world content" like elite quests in sub 50 zones is just unsoloable and few people level alts so outside of the launch window, that stuff is dead content. In retail, especially now, you are not locked out of anything, which i appreciate a lot more, and i can push things to my personal skill limit whenever i wish, or just lay back and farm mats and quests if i want a relaxing experience. Classic is just the relaxing experience the entire time which eventually gets old.
I also think the classic fanbase is a toxic cesspit but thats personal taste.
I play both versions but mostly retail. To understand retail, people must look from very different perspective. Game has evolved around changing mindset of people and lifestyles through years. Most classic enjoyers such as me are above 30 years old while most retail players are between 16-25ish as much as I could observe. The new generation is more isolated, self-interested and result oriented while back in our time we used to enjoy the sharing and the journey. When we were kids, we used to make tires and cars out of the woods, we used to enjoy the progress and the brainstorm we had together with friends not thinking about outcome. Most of the classic enjoyers are after the nostalgic feeling that they tasted many years ago, the bliss of enjoying the progress and journey not caring about outcome yet doing their best to reach it. New generation people gets what they want, get rids of it when they don't want anymore and gets new stuff when they feel like just like seasons. To understand the differences we must approach from socilogical aspect that shaped the game. Both are very different games from each other made for absolutely different audiences. The reason I play retail more than classic nowadays is that through the years I lost my interest in social interactions and became more self oriented and I don't want to deal with anyone else to get what I want, which also shaped my perspective about what to expect in a game.
I like and play both, but my skill and experience is 100% in retail. When retail gets boring or there is something I don't like about it, I go have an adventure on classic. I've raided mythic and got CE's and pushed rating in the past, but nowdays I like getting aotc, hitting 2k in M+ and then chilling on alts. War Within pugging has made alt gearing feel terrible, so I'm done for now until next patch. What helps is that I never played classic back in the day, and I've never reached level 60 before on classic period. So like right now, I'm enjoying the classic ride while everyone is a part of it. When another patch comes out for retail, I'll go play it until I become disappointed or bored enough, and then I hop back on classic. Rinse and repeat.
For me, the thing I don't like about retail is that every bit of content outside of the current xpac's end game is completely irrelevant and ignored. Like, if I wanted to replay Legion for the cool artifact weapons and story, I can't because most of the legendaries and effects are inactive. The completely bonkers scaling system breaks doing anything less than max level content as well. Even if I wanted to level some characters, the experience is dead if I wanted to quest. It's too easy, period. Leveling has only become a gateway inconvenience to the only content blizzard really wants you participating in. It's why they sell level boosts and constantly give us EXP boosts, because the leveling system intentionally sucks. So to get that feeling again, you pretty much have to play vanilla.
There is no skill in classic lol
@@godlygamer911 doesn't need to be. The leveling is an adventure in itself. Especially if you try hardcore.
Thats exactly what i do too. When I reach my goals in retail and get bored I often go chill in classic wow. Also very true what you said.
@@Chilluminati_ yeah but those of us that did it 20 years ago and remember it... It just feels tedious now
Gearing is not bad in TWW. You can hit 80 in two days and have a full set of Veteran gear waiting on you then go straight into delves and low keys. It’s very easy.
I've played wow for 15 years and leveled a druid in the re release of classic and tbc to see what all the hype was about. And really its just hype. All of the material differences are personal preference and subjective. I literally grew up playing this game and modern WoW feels like it has grown with me. Not perfectly, but overall. So just to take it point by point. 1. the MMO feeling. I have been in several guilds over the years and my current one is a pretty good community of around 30 people with different reasons for playing. I spent 2 years~ each in those other zones and don't really want to go sit in WoTLK Dalaran, been there done that. I played those stories when they were relevent. 2. Power Progression. I don't push for more than KSM and AOTC each patch, and the gear required to get their is relatively low to the min max needed for mythic raid and KSH, So by doing the content I like I naturally get the gear I want, the down sides of power progression in WoW have always been overdramatized. 3. So end game has always been the focus of the game. Having leveled in classic now, it really is nothing special. Ya some of the stores are good. But I also have lore master for every zone and expansion. TBH the good quest stories are everywhere. 4. Complexity. Ya I can see how complexity would be an issue. I grew up with all the changes and added systems. However, there is a huge delta between spamming frost bolt and modern systems and rotations. On the subject of system complexity. In classic nothing is explained either. that has been problem of MMO design for ever. No NPC in classic explains professions, enchanting, resistances, MP5, armor reduction, threat, quest objectives. So on the whole classic and wow are barley explained by the game and require tons of outside research to be played at any meaningful competency. 5. feeling is subjective. yep nothing can really be done about that. There are everyone from classic to TWW enjoyers. the vibes bounce off everyone differently.
Crafting in current retail just sucks, too complicated and confusing.
From a crafters PoV, I like the new crafting system. But as someone who needs to get an item crafted and then having to spam trade and look for crafters, yeah it feels kinda bad. Also very confusing for many ppl.
Its definitely not for the simple minded
I really like the crafting system in retail and how its made, especially with improvements implemented in TWW. I find it intuitive and rewarding for crafter to skill up and gain knowledge. But from the product consumer perspective i think crafting orders could be explained better in game, as a lot of players i craft for just dont know (like 25% of players).
@@Wellinger-zp4js Yeah, I feel the same way.
So you just like other players are just plain fucking bad and need things dumbed down to classic levels lmfao
My take, from someone who plays Wrath, Cata, and MoP: anything before LFR (or p servers that don't have it) feels like there is much more interaction with players and you make friends easier. I don't mind LFD as much, because it is not the end game you will spend most of your time on, and the difficulty of the content isn't too hard for random players. It makes it easier to level, and get alts ready for raids and PvP; so LFD but no LFR is the balance I prefer. It's about finding that sweet spot.
I agree 100% with the power progression argument. I like the linear progression and DETERMINISTIC gear that doesn't feel like an endless treadmill. I actually don't mind scaling systems when done properly, but the feeling of getting LESS powerful when you level that you see in Retail is a HUGE turn off. A game like Warhammer Online: Return of Reckoning does it properly, where you still care about gear upgrades but can compete in PvP with people a higher level than you. Feels good.
As for the focus on end game, I find it most appealing on p servers with 2x rates. It's a portion of the game, and fun to go through, but not a complete slog. Part of this is due to how often I've leveled something up in a given expansion. It seems like every time I do it, I want it a bit faster than the last, until it reaches a threshold. I enjoy the XP gains on heirloom gear for this reason, but NOT the increase in stats!!!! Part of what makes the leveling fun is CHALLENGE. If there is no danger, it isn't an adventure. This leads to the leveling process not feeling like "the real game" TM that starts at max level. It contributes to the "go go go" rush of people trying to get to cap instead of enjoying the journey.
The Wrath - MoP era leaned too far into making the leveling too easy (player power increased but the content did not get the same boost in difficulty). I don't want the leveling to take AS LONG as Vanilla, but I respect the fact that you can easily die. I also can't stand the fact that when the leveling gets too fast, you barely stay in a zone for long. This is one benefit scaling systems have... but if done wrong it ruins the game and you still need to be able to FEEL a gain in power. The best ones still emulate the feeling of the slow, linear progression of Vanilla. Frankly the leveling of Vanilla is king for a reason, and they should take notes.
Complexity is an interesting topic. The best way I can describe Retail is NEEDLESS complexity; it lacks any elegance. Sure, if you want to add depth you have to increase complexity by at least a little bit, but you want the lowest complexity to the highest depth ratio possible. Everything in Retail seems to pile on complexity while not increasing the depth. EVERYTHING from leveling, talents, gearing, systems, on and on.
You know what I liked about Cata? The best emblem and gearing system in the game's history. It was the last expansion with 100% deterministic loot, but plenty of vendors for bad RNG protection and catch up mechanics for alts. You had honor and conquest for PvP, and justice and valor for PvE; THAT'S IT. Simple and to the point. The rolling valor cap on Cata Classic is chef's kiss on top (even if we are taking a step backwards to Wrath with another dungeon queue and new currency).
I can't go back to Vanilla and BC because classes have ZERO rotation. FFS you just cast Frostbolt or Shadowbolt. Retail has rotations that are needlessly complex. Once you sift through the noise, most of them aren't THAT bad, but it is getting through the needless complexity of it all. Wrath, Cata, and MoP had the best rotations out of any point in the game... and if the combat feels good, the game is fun to play. There is enough depth to have you learning little tricks and tips to min max damage for years, but not so complex you need a master's degree for a new player to figure it out and reach the skill floor green parses.
Talent trees are related to this as well. Some of the older versions of the games lacked options, but the current trees add a ton of complexity without adding much depth, and the way they are laid out means the resulting rotations don't have the same feel as the Wrath - MoP meticulously crafted rotations where everything lines up perfectly and every spell is a small part of the same vision for the spec. Furthermore, single target vs AoE build is NOT a play style choice, just that you chose the "right" or "wrong" one for the content. We could also talk about the amount of buttons... something between Wrath, Cata, and MoP just feels right; most of my favorite iterations of specs land in one of those expansions. Again, all of it just feels like finding the sweet spot, and we DON'T have to add a million buttons or huge talent trees to give new options. Imagine if there are toggles for play style choices at the top of the tree? So maybe one version of Enhance is built around 2h weapons, and another one is a tanking tree, etc. where certain abilities replace others like Gladiator stance warrior on crack. If the options are kept separate from one another they can be balanced separately... instead of the current trees throwing it all together and good luck to whoever has to balance that. At least this would be an additive system as opposed to redesigning the wheel every few years.
We could also talk about raid difficulty and boss mechanics. In Vanilla there aren't really many real mechanics (meaning I find raiding boring), Wrath starts to add some in, and by the time we hit Cata even the dungeon bosses have legit mechanics that, pre nerf, could one shot you or wipe your group. Cata feels like we finally have REAL boss mechanics. By the time we get to Legion some of the mechanics are needlessly convoluted, and on Retail they are making browser games to explain the mechanics to people. Like everything else so far there is a sweet spot. it will vary from person to person (I prefer Cata/MoP heroic difficulty) but there is a reason why Wrath had and kept the largest player population: it was the closest to finding the sweet spot for your average player.
As for "Warcraft feeling" I agree 100%. It used to be about brutal war instead of larping as furries and dragons while we talk about our feelings. We can laugh at how Warlords turned out, but the trailer and shorts got people hyped for a reason. Keep in mind, originally Warcraft RTS was being designed as a Warhammer Fantasy game.. and the visuals used to be MUCH closer to the dark world of Warhammer. I miss that. WoW has just lost its edge over time, being dulled down into something safe and generic. When I play Warhammer Online I feel like this is what WoW SHOULD have felt like; the vibe of that janky old game has modern WoW beat HANDS DOWN.
Best thing about retail is more races and classes.
Yeah, its nice to have more to choose from.
@@shieldsftw Well... some races are ok like Zandalaris, Nightfallen or Dark Iron feel ok. But then you have Vulpera and Dracthyrs which feel so off from what Warcraft is ☠
@@Orgrimmar21 Yea, I myself like Alliance Races like Worgen, which existed in Literature before Vanilla WoW to my Knowledge. as well as some Humans, Elves, and such, for Horde...Tauren (Minotaurs in a way), Some Orcs, but there are also races I am not fond of. but Retail....yea Retail...definitely went in a Direction. for me personally. Vanilla-MoP feels like home, more so the WoTLK-MoP Section as that's the one I had the most interaction with, but you Can also tell that even MoP Followed a bit of Classic's Philosophy (No Level Scaling, Progression feels Permanent, you earn a Upgrade. it's a Upgrade, your Power won't feel like it's fallen off if you come back a bit later)
@@Orgrimmar21 I mean, you're not wrong, they do feel kind of out of place xd
@@Orgrimmar21 I agree with you, it’s far off from what Warcraft is….or was. The modern players like the more goofy, Disney-esque stuff clearly. Personally, I think it’s part of what drives me away from Retail. But they like those races, just like they think Factions should be done away with
I'm 30 now but when I was a teen going from middle school to high school and university it was all about vanilla/tbc/wrath levelling experience, bonds with people on whatever private server I played as well as the journey towards the endgame, instead of it just being a destination to get to asap. I've been playing Wrath Classic since Naxxramas and as much fun as I had with it again making some great bonds while guild-hopping, the game's tone definitely shifted to be more endgame centric starting with Cataclysm. I tried levelling a completely fresh toon and the levelling experience no longer felt enjoyable, everyone was encouraged to just spam random dungeon finder over and and over until they ding 80+. The questing itself became braindead easy and doesn't help you learn the game whatsoever because you can mow down multiple targets at once with ease. You no longer need to group with others, you just hop in, hop out of the dungeon roulette. Because of that professions are completely disjointed too, when I used to play pre-cata private servers I would have no issue having a gathering + crafting profession up to date with each expansion because the game gave a fuck and so did I, starting with cata, the game stops giving a fuck because levelling your toon is blazing fast and you REALLY need to get out of your way to also not fall behind on your professions zone-wise. It's just bad game design introduced each expansion cycle. It made the CORE gameplay which is levelling and the journey more braindead, single player, and ultimately boring, unattractive, while making endgame even more engaging and harder, even if that basically means more people will quit the game before even reaching there.
I played some Dragonflight too, levelling is fucking abysmal but endgame is pretty great if you don't mind the gacha/mobile game tier daily/weekly grinds and similar fomo shit. I personally don't love it, but mythic+ progs are fun as hell.
especially relevant right now, retail feels like waiting in line at disney land, classic feels like im in an rpg world.
everything in retail right now feels like im waiting in line for my turn at a 5 minute ride, the rollercoaster is old and wooden, shakes like crazy and doesnt go very fast, and feels like it may not be worth the wait.
in classic even if im playing solo i feel like im planning where i want to go and when, whether or not a quest is worth it, planning out my professions, always able to sell extra materials, i feel like im planning a journey not waiting for a ride.
I really enjoy both. Classic wow is that perfect chill version of wow that allows me to put on my rose tinted goggles, relax, and bring back memories of my first time on Azeroth. I enjoy retail for the difficult aspect, when I really want to lock in and see how far I can push my toons.
id be a lot more social in retail if i would not be banned fir saying anything
You would be social with a bunch of bot players that do not communicate outside of vote kicking
@@ICee712 Just as many bots in classic as there is in retail (supply demand -> bots go where players are, they dont care what the game mode is.. You even see bots in Hardcore wow)
I feel so disconnected from a lot of the former Retail players when it comes to this whole subject.
The thing that would bring me back to retail is ultimately the thing that most people quit over already. My core issue is I don't feel Retail wow has changed enough to ever make coming back feel worth it. I play FFXIV now, and I'm enjoying getting to explore and experience a bunch of new systems, and challenges and rotations that ask me to learn a new MMO from the ground up. When it comes to Retail, my issue is there isn't enough systems, there isn't enough innovation or change to make me excited about coming back to retry the game.
While there has been changes, the core issue I always point out is that, even having not played the game from BFA, I can explain how every spec in the game is going to play with about 80% accuracy, because it just never changes. There's no new ideas or wild changes to wow me or make me want to come back for a new, exciting experience, if I come back, I'll still be getting Lava surge procs from my fire shock to give me free lava bursts, I'll still be spending my meter to use Earth shock, and I'll still use Stormkeeper for juiced up lightning spells on a CD.
I'm not saying that's the only issue I have with Retail, but to me, I'm just bored of playing the same specs and rotations that've been in the game for so long with only minor changes between each Xpac. Especially given the fact you're so heavily locked to one class to invest into. The biggest thing I love about FFXIV is the fact just today doing content, I played Sage, warrior, gunbreaker, Red mage, Pictomancer, Machinist, black mage, ninja and dragoon over the day just because I was like "Well, I feel like playing this right now", and when you're trying to learn and remember all the quirks and rules for 24 specs instead of 3, it really helps keep things feeling fresh, and I never have that moment of class envy where I wish I picked X or Y because my class enforces limitations on how I can experience the game.
Ultimately, Classic WoW has a vary different design direction and intention with it, and that's okay. I really wish they'd just pull the trigger and make Classic+ at this point as that's something I'd actually come back to the game to try out, I felt SoD missed the mark for me, because it was just grabbing abilities that existed in later Xpacs and shoveling them into Classic wow and calling it a new, fresh experience, but if you've played the later versions of the class, the novelty felt extremely short lived to me. Just accepting that the core design pillars of Retail and Classic are not the same, and that you should build off of them to provide two unique experiences that appeals to two different audiences feels like such a better approach. Classic WoW should focus on casual, optional content to flush out the world, to make the adventure from 1-60 feel incredible and to make the world feel alive and dynamic, not trying to fixate on the end game raiding or grind that people moved away from Retail wow from. I personally love degenerate Cutting edge raiding, but I think to walk into Molten core in 2024 and try and pretend like the game should be fully designed around it as if its the ultimate pillar of the classic experience is pretty ridiculous.
Personally, to look at FFXIV, or PoE, something these games do extremely well that I wish WoW would take notes on is how there's so many stand alone branches of content that you're never forced to interact with, that provide some reason to do them, but its 100% optional, and while you might choose to ignore the system because its not your preference, or you're busy with something else, there's communities of players interacting and having a totally different experience then you in the game. I think that at its core is what makes the game feel alive to me. In WoW Retail, the world is dead because the core, single vision of the game is End game, RBG's, Arena, M+, Raiding, etc. You have no reason to go to Hillsbrad or the Crossroads, but when I look at something like FF14, people still run a roguelike 200 floor dungeon called Palace of the dead, and the enterance for it is in a town in a level 20 area. Same with the boat to get to Island Expeditions, or people running around doing Treasure maps, Fate bosses, S Ranks, Hunt Trains, Bozja or Eureka, just having players out in the world participating in content that has nothing to do with you I feel is so important for the feeling of the world.
Decided to try retail this year. Ive played a ton of pvp and tried out raiding as well. My biggest issue is that I never felt attached to my character the way I do in classic to wrath expansions. The game feels extremely soulles in comparison to older expansions.
Yeah, I feel you. Somehow the slow process of building your character in classic WoW does make you much more emotionally attached to the character when compared to retail.
You don’t feel attached because you haven’t spent enough time with them.
I’m way more attached to my retail characters. I’ve played them for almost a decade, whereas Classic makes me restart every year.
I prefer the fact that Vanilla WoW does NOT have a main storyline. Without singular main storylines, or even zone stories, you can go any direction you want and explore and not feel like some nun with a ruler is standing behind you to rap your knuckles to get with the program. Once main storylines were added, the focus of the player when interacting with NPCs became how awesome you are, rather than being just a nobody trying to make their way in the world.
I do have to wonder what the breakdown of faction for "Warcraft Feel" was, whether it was mostly a Horde opinion, Alliance opinion, or evenly split. I have my suspicions, but I'd rather not jump to conclusions.
I don't get retail leveling. Either remove it completely, or make it good and actually taking time. You can even keep both options: just make good leveling AND add a free character boost.
But the current system? It's just a way to sell paid character boosts, nothing else.
Yeah, retail levelling definitely needs a fix.
I quite enjoy retail leveling. It’s extremely fast and I look forward to getting a talent every level and learning my class.
Skipping this phase is why players are so bad at max level.
@@erejnion retail leveling is meant to be expedient. But not too fast that you are firehosed with abilities and talents. Returning or veteran players not doesn’t matter. But place yourself in the shoes of an absolutely brand new player, It’s meant to give you a little time to learn the spells, tooltips, rotations etc before you go into end game.
@@Spookycasual Yeah, every single feedback I see is that it fails to do so, being too fast for new players and too slow for veterans. So I am not sure what your argument is.
Again, it's either-or: either make it slow enough that people actually learn their classes and have a good time leveling, or just skip it entirely.
Yeah, honestly they could have it both ways in retail. Leveling a character for the first time should take a long time. Perhaps not 200+ hours long like classic, but maybe like 60-80 hours. And then, like they currently have, you could get a progressive XP boost each time you get an alt to max level, because I do see the value in vastly accelerating the leveling process for people who have already done it 12 times.
Answer to "What you think":
I have dropped retail completely and only play Classic (mostly SOD or hardcore). The reasons for this are primarily:
1. The aspect of the game I enjoy the most (faction conflict) is being watered down with every expansion (except for BFA).
2. PvP seems to be more and more of a side-project, alongside pet battles, which sucks, as I pay the same price every month as every PvE player, but get much less. I am aware that WoW has never been a PvP game primarily. But the amount of ressources they spend on PvE (raiding) and PvP (battlegrounds, arenas, world PvP) is barely even comparible. Making a new arena would require less effort than making 1 boss in a raid, and we should be happy if we even get that much in an entire expansion. A new battleground? My assumption is the same amount of effort as a quarter of raid and we barely even get that every second expansion.
3. The graphics. As mentioned in the video, a lot of the style has become incredibly soft.
4. The class accessibility. The whole "everyone can play anything. Damn the lore and fantasy of the world." is becoming way too much. Sure the sacrifices already started in TBC, where blood elves were joining the Horde, because too many people joined the Alliance. So Blizzard wanted to give Horde a "pretty race", despite the fact that it made no sense lore-wise. But today, we are at a whole different level. Tauren and troll paladins be damned, we now have night elf warlocks. At this point, it wouldn't be out of the question to give orcs priests or goblin druids.
The 4 points I mentioned are my primary reasons for quitting retail. In short, it just doesn't seem like Blizzard takes the game serious anymore. But of course, there are other things I dislike about it as well. So in conclusion, if I was to consider coming back to retail, the game would have to change to the point, where the people who enjoy it for what it is today, probably would not like it. Blizzard aimed to design the game for a new or different audience, and in the process, they lost some of the old audience, myself included.
Cool to hear your PoV of this. I also hope retail PvP would get some more love from blizzard devs.
there are very few things I prefer in retail over classic:
- transmog
- mount ui
- pet ui
- bigger bags
- class design (no soul shards, no ammo buy for hunters)
if these aspects were implemented to classic and on top housing then classic would be perfect to me.
Fuck transmog! That is one of the WORST features EVER introduced!!!
Yeah, I wouldn't mind having those in classic (except for transmog maybe).
So basically most of the stuff you like on retail are just cosmetic or QOL based stuff.
Didn't see you mention any of the actual gameplay/content aspects of the game which are like the core part of any mmo
@ correct. i prefer the gameplay of classic.
maybe exept for pvp (more balanced in retail) - but also there i prefer the classic bgs.
@@Core1138 can you explain to me why?
from a roleplay/rpg perspective i like having options how i want to dress and i prefer not everybody looking the same.
Blizzard should release a wow server with a much longer phase cadence. Vanilla was released at the end of 2004 and TBC was released at the start of 2007. So a more true experience would be a two year “season”. Which would also allow people to level alts etc. all things that people actually did when wow was originally released. Maybe some additional incentives for players to do that as well. Since it also helps new players who pick up the game after release since the starting zones aren’t totally empty.
People might say there is time for alts with the current timeline, and there is, but not really for the gamer moms and dads, who may lose a week here or there for life things that arise. And this would help with the feeling of being behind and no way to catch up.
I totally agree. The shortened lifespans of classic patches and expansions is one of the reasons I don't play as much classic as I'd like to. I like classic, but leveling takes so long that after like two months in classic 2019 I was level 45 or so and got burnt out, when I was finally ready to come back to it and get to level 60 I had already missed a few phases. And there was no way I could keep up with TBC and WotLK with those only lasting a year. I know that you don't truly have to "keep up" and you can go at your own pace, but not if you want to experience the raids (before they become from the gear from the following raids) or if you want to be leveling in the same zones as everyone else or being able to actually be competitive with professions or pvp. This is a large reason I really like the hardcore format, because it keeps most people in the low level ranges.
its the community why i quit retail. Everything needs to be fast and quick, you cant even enjoy the dungeons in 5 mans, because if you're a bit slow you`ll getting kicked straight away.
Bro, I once tried playing WoW with a controller using an addon just for fun. I was the tank, I was going at a decent clip but still learning how to do everything with a controller. My toon was low level, even.
Because I didn't chain pull the entire instance in 5 minutes I was kicked midway through. Nobody was dying, we weren't stopping for more than maybe 5 seconds at a time as I figured out where to put new abilities as I leveled up. The content would have been trivial enough for them all to pull the instance as DPS.
But no, instead they... kick the tank. Be sweaty or be kicked - that's the retail way. No fun, just grind.
Really great video! I agree with everything said. I hadn't played the game in about 6 years but then came back for classic. Now I'm switching between HC and Retail. They are very different but both are really fun in their own way.
Thanks a lot!
Good video. I've levelled a character to max in retail (well, without buying the dragonflight game) and have played Classic since TBCC. One of the things I'd like to point out is the decline in quality of the writing between even two expansions past Cata. I levelled a character in WOD/Legion through time walking and in BFA and even that felt different. I could kind of get into the story in WOD and in the Nightborne zone in Legion, I was pretty invested. Kul Tiras? Oh man was it dull and all over the place. It felt directionless. The story was, I guess, to rescue Jaina but I was pretty much hopping from town to town in each zone to do a checklist of quests before I could move on again. It felt like a guided tour of sets you'd see at a tour of an old medieval castle. I didn't even get to save Jaina at the end and still had one whole zone to clear (like when does it fucking end!?).
The WOD and Nighthold zones felt like yo were actually trying to hold an area for your side. The landscapes were interesting and there felt like there was stakes and purpose for what you were doing. I felt like some of the other zones for Legion were dull, but both Nighthold and High Mountain were great. To try to get a Classic player back into even BFA let alone beyond? Blizzard would have to pay us $15 a month!
Kul tiras is not great in my opinion. did you do Zandalar? It’s much better.
Thanks! Yeah I too feel like the retail story has declined and gone in a wrong direction. It used to be very cool but feels kinda dull now. Still, I am a wow lore nerd and will follow it all the same xd.
@@maruraba1478 I did not, I knew KT from WC2/3 whereas Zandalar were the trolls you turn in ZG stuff for iirc? I'll have to take your word it was better but after levelling two characters to 70 I wasn't in the mood to level a 3rd on Horde to test it out. I just kind of wanted it to be over at that point.
@@shieldsftw Hopefully this Metzen arc pays off for you retail players.
One thing I'd like to note... More Dice doesn't necessarily mean (More Fun)... Retails Itemization and over the top damage Is all just a bit too much... In classic I like that all I got to do is make sure I'm well fed and sharpen my blade ... That's it
classic is not a game for the employed.
depends on your goals
Not remotely applicable, no.
100% they are both different experiences. I play both. I love both.
Yes, well said!
Got my names reserved the minute classic 2 opened yesterday. Wife and I logged on did a couple quests, killed some quilboars, got extremely bored 🥱 logged off, uninstalled.
The nostalgia goggles are nice but it still doesn't make up for the fact that vanilla was a boring slog, And you'll never get that feeling of doing it the first time again.
The best feeling about Classic as an example:
Enter Redridge Mountains, do some quests alone. You find someone doing the same quests, invite him to group and you continue to quest together. You progress and have to kill Gath'llzogg, now you need to make a full group. It becomes a 2 hour ordeal because of a 19 rogue ganker. You kill him together and finally finish the quest. When the quest group splits, you end up putting 2 of them in the friends list and most likely continue playing with them.
This has never happened in retail and it's one of the reasons I don't play it.
Yeah... the power scaling of retail is quite nonsensical. At the end of one expansion you're wearing gear with world-shattering potential. And in the next expansion, an item given to you by some random fisherman is better than your legendary item :D If all of the plebs had given you their items an expansion sooner, and everything would've been so much easier.
I do enjoy ESO's horizontal progression much more. It's far from perfect itself, as there are some "optimal" sets, which you don't need to change after acquiring them. But it does make more sense, and you can play new expansions, without feeling weaker. It's a lot more RPG orientated. For WoW, I think that gear in expansions can have the same stats as those of previous ones, but have glyph-like effects. Like specific gear changes how your abilities work.
I also think that a more.... coherent... design of all of the systems is in order. I remember when I was playing Mists of Pandaria, my character was being trained in Kung Fu or something like that. And was defeating some giant monsters with it. But that was just as part of a quest, and had no consequences on my character itself. It would've been cool if my character could get some unique abilities from completing the questline.
And yes, when you start a new character in retail, you are sent to the latest expansion immediately. Would've been nice if a player were allowed to experience the game in its logical order. Yes, there is Chromie, who can send you back to a previous expansion, but there is no initiative for you to do so.
just to further support your point, I'd point out that's actually how diablo 3 did it's seasonal gear equipment and while D3 is not popular the fact they made new and distinct gear to grind for each season that usually focused on intensifying some aspect of the class fantasy or ability-set in particular was considered a really good part of the game by most players. not only can it be done, but blizzard has done it themselves!
One of the things I enjoyed about vanilla, and to an extent in TBC, was the relevancy of raids throughout the expansion. Due to the way gear was built, you'd have items such as 'Onslaught Girdle' off Rag which people would seek out throughout the expansion. The only plate belt better than it dropping off a boss in the final raid of Naxxramas. There are many pieces of gear like this that people will continue running old raids. It provided a form of natural 'catch up' because often times you'd fill out raids and all the spare gear could go to newer characters while the few elite pieces were reserved for those carrying the raid. By the time WotLK rolled around, older raids completely lost their relevancy. The next raid tier had gear that was by all measure superior to the last and now no one ever ran the old content anymore.
Modern gaming seems to have arrived at this strange conclusion that QoL is always good.
* Remove needing to organize your inventory and find space to fit things in your bags? Good.
* Remove needing to identify items before you can use them? Good.
* Remove needing to return to your class trainer to train your skills? Good.
* Remove needing to clear old content to get to newer content? Good.
* Remove needing to make permanent or even semi-permanent choices for your character? Good.
* Remove needing to socialize and be cooperative with other players? Good.
* Remove risk when running about the world? Good.
* Remove the need to manually run from place to place? Good.
* Remove inventory limits? Good.
* Remove needing to go to the vendor to sell things? Good.
* Remove falling damage? Good.
Different MMOs go down this hole to different degrees, but most of the players, in general, seem to be under the impression that these types of changes can never be bad. This, to me, is absolutely nuts. The bottom of that hole is removing the need to play the game at all - idle games, or those mobile MMOs that play the game for you. Whenever you remove the tedium, the grind, the amount of time and knowledge and skill it takes to do something, you also remove the value and impact of that thing. Providing an LFG tool means removing the social element. Providing duel spec or free respecs removes the element of choice and customization. Removing attunements and providing catch up gear removes the the element of progression. Adding selectable difficulty levels to content removes the thrill of achievement and the shared experience of knowing everyone has gone through the same challenge. Some of those trade offs might be the right ones for one game or another, but it's silly to pretend that they aren't trade offs at all.
To me, WoW lost its appeal when they added duel spec, and lost its last shreds of dignity when they added automated lfg. As long as any version of WoW has either of those two things, it can't be truly enjoyable for me.
All of the Things you listed are things that are nice for the first 20 hours of playtime and then become a nuisance and a waste of time. A lot of these constraints make a lot of sense in Singeplayer games. But not Multiplayer games. When you waste one players time you waste the the entire groups time because you needs groups to get meaningful progress. "Whenever you remove the tedium, the grind, the amount of time and knowledge and skill it takes to do something, you also remove the value and impact of that thing." Absolutely wrong. Retail has removed a lot of tediousness and meaningless grinding from the game. And yet it is still among the most skill expresssive MMOs we currently have. Being Able to sink a lot of time into the game doesn't equal skill.
@@tremendoshd2356 Well, clearly this is the line between which retain and classic fans are divided, yeah? The reason - or one of the reasons - why both groups think the other group's version of the game completely sucks :P
Well done video. Personally I wish for a TBC-era game engine/design with new worlds/zones to quest through, non-seasonally.
Rushing to max level and then repeating daily quests is not experiencing the game world, its just doing chores.
Thanks! Maybe the classic anniversary servers could do that after progressing to TBC ;)
I don't play any WoW anymore. If I was, I'd probably be playing Classic.
TLDR: Many of Vanilla's problems were perfectly solvable, but just weren't until TBC (which rendered vanilla content irrelevant), new problems were introduced in TBC and Wrath, which ultimately directly or indirectly led to "old" WoW being destroyed by bad game design (and, reputedly, developer hubris).
One of WoW Classic's problems, at least in Vanilla, is that a server requires a thriving and active population going through the leveling process to function correctly as a living world. Given enough time, the majority of any server's population is capped and the leveling zones become largely deserted. Finding groups to complete content that requires a group to complete becomes frustratingly difficult---on a server that is actively going through the initial "growth" process, you can stumble across a group doing quests in any given zone or 5 man dungeon, but once the bell curve of level distribution is firmly pegged on the far right, you can hang around the base of Jintha'Alor for hours on end and never find anyone going up to Save Sharpbeak or whatever.
Endgame design was also an issue. Everything was a progression---you had to have MC gear to do BWL, BWL to do AQ, AQ to do Naxx---so every time they added a new raid tier, they were investing heavily in content that only an increasingly tiny percentage of the paying player base would ever see. Then you had the two strange outliers of ZG and AQ20...ostensibly, these were entry-level raids to help players who had completed gearing up at the dungeon-level instances (Dire Maul, UBRS, Strat, etc) to access MC. But the gear that dropped was only marginally better than 5-man dungeon items and were in no way particularly suited for use in MC, which was designed with Fire Resist gear foremost in mind. The fights were also FAR harder than anything to be found in MC. Even the trash was more difficult than many of the early MC bosses.
Many of the issues were addressed in TBC. They largely fixed class design so that all class specs were potentially suited for raid content, something that REALLY should have been done in Vanilla. Also, the addition of badge gear helped people gear up for Tier 5 raids without having to run through them. This was contentious among hardcore players, but it really solved the issues that raid leaders had faced in vanilla post Tier 2---if you needed someone to fill your ranks, you either had to pinch people from other raids who were already geared (which is inviting drama), pick up already geared players who had quit other Tier 2 raids (which is REALLY inviting drama), or find promising players in Dungeon Set gear and run them through MC and BWL multiple times and pray the drops cooperate (which is a grind for everyone else and also causes drama). The introduction of Arenas in TBC is probably the worst thing to come from that Xpac, arguably one of the worst things in WoW ever, but those chickens didn't start really coming home to roost until Wrath.
Wrath, where WoW inarguably peaked, introduced problematic changes late in the development cycle that were expanded upon in bad ways during future expansions. LFG, while hugely convenient (and insanely profitable for Tanks and Healers), singlehandedly destroyed server communities. This was even before introducing Battlegroups and other cross-server matchmaking. It was comical to see Dalaraan essentially deserted, except for huge crowds of people standing still on the steps of either bank. Late in Wrath, I had to put together an old school PuG at one point to run an Utgarde Keep dungeon, and half the group didn't even know how to get there. Another issue that really started to become prevalent in Wrath were Arenas that I mentioned earlier. They were starting to drive design; whatever flavor-of-the-month class/spec combo was dominating during the previous patch cycle would get the shit nerfed out of them. Even if their arena performance was in no way carrying over to their performance in PVE content, these nerfs inevitable very negatively affected classes in PvE content.
Blizzard seemed to go from course-correcting to doubling down on bad decisions starting in Cataclysm, and that's where they lost me. The talent streamlining was overdone, and then instead of fixing that, they streamlined to the point of being unrecognizable in MoP. I quit WoW for the first time a month before MoP released, and I've only dabbled in anything WoW-related since then. I have been largely clueless to the events of most expansions since because I just don't care for retail anymore. I know a lot of people don't care, and some are left leaning, but the obvious political ideaologies filtering in to the overall stories (not to mention the infamous waifuing of Sylvanas) really repulses me.
All that being said, if they found a way to implement Classic Plus in such a way that
1) Fixed class design as was done in TBC/Wrath
2) Repaired broken quests without radically redesigning and over-streamlining (looking at you again, Cataclysm)
3) Added more new 5-man content of varying difficulties (and appropriate gear level drops)
4) Redesigned itemization in the positive ways done in TBC and Wrath
5) Added in the positive Quality of Life changes (more races/classes, functional meeting stones, UI changes, etc). I would not even be against Horde/Alliance cooperative grouping---call it 'white flagging'
...I might go back. But this will never happen because it isn't low hanging fruit, and therefore isn't worth the investment from Blizz.
Man wrote a book
I do tend to go on. Apologies for that.
It's amazing how one can write so much and say absolutely nothing
Your input is valued and appreciated.
Back in the day I started playing retail TBC, and played through to the end of WotLK. I was able to play WotLK classic this time around.
Personally, I found that leveling in classic is way more fun than it is in retail.
However, the PVE end game in classic was extremely disappointing for me. Everything has been figured out and optimized to death. The meta is king. Talent point allocation and the gearing path are clearly laid out for optimization and you are expected to follow them if you raid in any capacity. Upon getting to level 80, I had a couple of weeks of rep grinding. Afterwards, outside of raid nights, I found myself mostly sitting in Dalaran waiting for a BG queue to pop or a daily dungeon group to join.
This was my personal experience, and I know many of my guild members experienced the same thing.
WoW is special because it’s WoW. Other games can be fun and come close but it will never be WoW because so many people consider Azeroth to be a 2nd home. Classic gives you the chance to be a member of that society, to play a role in it to be a part of the nostalgia to come in 10 years when we think back on this. Retail is an arcade game but classic is something else
True! I don't think WoW can be replaced by any game.
Wow has been in my heart for 20 years. i've seen the rise and fall of everything in it so far. what matters is how you choose to keep it in your heart, and bounce back while retaining what you hold dear.
Eh, retail is the apartmemt you moved into after getting your first well paying job, classis is your childhood home that you don't live in anymore.
Not sure how retail id an arcade game, I don’t see the similarities.
@@MikeyJ232 Games referred to as arcade games are characterized by being easy to learn but hard to master. The controls are often not very complex, individual levels are usually short, and the difficulty starts off easy but typically culminates in a challenging level. These types of games require no prior knowledge and are designed to appeal to anyone who encounters them.
Thought this video was from a channel with a few 100k subs. Keep up the good work
Haha, not there yet. Thanks a lot!
I don’t like taking a million years to level up and make it to end game. I enjoy the journey to an extent. But making an alt feels like climbing a mountain. I am a real adult and a dad and like to get laid. Which requires me to spend actual time with my woman. I don’t want to spend all my free time in a game. Retail I can get my RPG feels without being married to the game.
Good point, I definitely get that pov too. Both games have their benefits.
Assuming hardcore players are not the ones who get mad pussy
@@silentsorrowbane they are really not.
criss cross in the dump your opinion I toss.
triss trass your opinion is trash.
im sorry I just wanted to leave this obviously inflammatory comment because I think its funny. I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it
Exactly same here
one thing to note about the changes topic: Classic today is a solved game based on the very last patch Drums of War, when the game came out 20 years ago, it went through just as many, if not more changes than the current retail expansion (some changes back then even impacted how classes fundamentally played) during it's various patches.
It's missing one big point: skill issue. Most classic players aren't even good enough to play classic well, and retail is way more difficult. The average classic player can't even execute a 4 button rotation right while dodging fire.
you really think so?
Retail is more difficult... in end game. Remember leveling is toddler difficulty.
@@HallyVee Retail pre-endgame doesn't matter, it's just a few hours of grind to get to the real game, just like leveling in Diablo, PoE, FFXIV, etc. The game starts when you finish the base content.
I've played WoW since 2005. I enjoy multiple versions and expansions of the game. Retail class design is so much more fun than the 1 button rotations of classic. Retail pvp is a blast (arenas, solo shuffle, battleground blitz)! Classic leveling is the only thing that's better.
I feel like retail definitely has some sick class design for some specs, but some specs i feel like are more fun in classic. And yes, nothing can beat retail PvP, its so fun.
In simple words retail is like a car with 5900 buttons and actions
Classic is a smooth car with 3 pedals a speed box and a wheel.
Classic is a smooth car with 3 pedals a speed box and a wheel.
Retail is an automated tram. Sure there might be lots of choices for where you want to sit or what you want to stare at... but it doesn't matter, you're going where it is, and the only thing you can control is whether you pull the cord at the right time.
@ imagine a man starting to play retail at this moment … he would be so confused and so lost either so much content that he eventually would feel confused and quit, classic is simple short and have savage world pvp where the strongest apex dominates, no fly mounts just gangs in world pvp, and your Guildies get involved much more
I play both. Actually, sometimes a little bit of each version. About retail, I would say that sometimes it feels like some kind of unfinished, wierd private server.
problem I have with retail is every class/spec feels and plays the same
you are a tank?
this is the buff that gives you armor, have to keep it up 100% of the times, these are your generators , these are your spenders, and you got a bunch of defensives, don't forget to use them
you are a dps?
these are your single target buttons and these are your aoe buttons, just press them and wait for procs for bigger damage, dont forget cds and defensives, or maybe do
in classic every single class/spec has its own identity/way to play
you are a hunter? your playstyle revolves around your pet , traps and kiting
you are a mage?
you got tons of utility and aoe and you can cc enemies effectively
you are a rogue?
your playstyle revolves around being sneaky and picking targets out one by one
this is specially visible during leveling, if you dont use your kit like you should, you will have trouble getting further so you have to actually learn
thats it for every new class you try , there was not a single time in classic I would just roll my hands on the keyboard and things just work , in retail tho thats viable for the most part cause everything is the same and you just spend like 99% of leveling in dungeon finder zooming through a dungeon just for that fast level cap run
As a player who plays a lot of retail. I feel like I have to disagree. The identities and playstyles of classes are still there. It's just that they aren't used in PvE alot. But in PvP you still do all of those things you described and every class has a very different playstyle.
Wow I feel the opposite. Warlock? Hit 1 bolt button over and over. Mage? Hit one DIFFERENT COLOR button over and over.
I am not saying classic doesn’t have charm or class differences, but pretending rotation variety is anything but abysmal kind of shows that you’re not being very analytical
doing lfg and mythic are two seperate things. whats your io?
Lmao come on, this is definitely cope. I like classic for what it is, but the combat is the absolute weakest part of the game. Warlock? Press shadowbolt till OOM then spam wand or Lifetap into more SBs. Mage? Frostbolt till OOM then wand. Priest? Heal or Smite until OOM and wand. PvP is effectively the same thing. Warr/Sham, melee and proc windfury to 1 shot something. All of these things are repeat and kite until you cheese something to death. Each class in retail on the surface has builder spender concepts, but there is so much nuance in their kits that make the combat actually fun and engaging. You don't want to compare the classes from Classic to Retail because Retail objectively destroys classic class design.
You don't roll your hands on your keyboard in classic because you almost always press 1 button, maybe 2 if you're fighting an orange mob and have to kite. And if you're rolling your hands on your keyboard in retail, you're not playing correctly and won't be performing what the class is capable of. The leveling experience in retail is definitely the weakest aspect, but that's because the game revolves around endgame and you only really start to utilize your kit once you hit max level. Sure, this shouldn't be the case and is a design flaw, but it doesn't change the fact that the depth of classes in retail is leagues and away better than classic.
@@PapaProne You make a very good point. The amount of gimmicks has increased over the years, making a paladin feel more like a paladin and a priest more like a priest in retail. But it seems like the majority of people miss one crucial point. In Retail, I can hit my head against the keyboard and never worry about death and even if I do fail, there is no feeling of a treat as I haven't spent any effort into being able to perform the challenge. All the gear and rotations are figured out for me and even if I do absolutely everything wrong, the person next to me doing everything right won't have a major difference in impact. This differs on the high end of content each season, but the majority of players are on equal ground. Classic suffers from the same problem nowadays, but for different reasons. The game is too old and everything has been figured out. But the possibility of failing, is still very present, as in 2004. For this reason hardcore is so popular, as we humans tend to feel more gratification, after suffering. The same way, a bottle of water tastes much better after completing a hike.
Eh, a new season in retail doesn't make your previous gear useless. If you are a competent raider and are raiding regularly, you can expect to be able to jump in the next season's raid immediately upon release...but at a lower difficultly. For example, if you are set up in all heroic level gear, you should start raiding at normal for the next season. This actually has a positive effect on the community because it reduces the chance of a guild becoming a farm for other guilds. Classic is great! I play it too....but if you want to challenge yourself and feel a sense of actual end-game accomplishment then you should stick to retail.
Well, you're right it doesn't make your gear completely useless, but it does make it not that relevant and it will be very quickly replaced. And yeah retail endgame is definitely more interesting and challenging in my opinion too.
The only thing I want to add is this, when I played classic 20 years ago, when you saw a player wear purples, even one of them, you knew that they had achieved something, a good player. Now everyone expects purples, high rewards. I played for many levels in greens only, jumped for joy at a blue, and if I remember correctly managed my first purple near the end of the burning crusade. I was a casual, social player. I appreciated the effort others must put in to get to end game, to see final boss fights and win. Now, as in society everyone must be winner, get a medal and be catered for. IMHO that’s not real life, we should celebrate the success of others. (I miss Thot-Bot) 😂
What makes a good player? What is "achieved something"?. In classic when i see a player in all purps 9/10 times they're an officer or a GM in their respective guild. In Retail, depending on their Title or ItL or IO score, i know that person is mechanically blessed at the game.
Ah yes, the origin of the term "welfare epics!" I feel ya, man!
I switch between classic and retail - sometimes I just get an itch for one.
Retail I pvp somewhat competetively and exclusively, then do some of the other content (checking out new features such as delves, even trying timewalking dungeons and the current anniversary event).
In Classic wrath and cata I played somewhat similarly: blast through the gearing process and queue pvp. Probably prefer the gameplay of Wotlk slightly over Cataclysm and Retail, but the systems of retail make it so easy. I also love the questing experiences of Classic-Wotlk. The non-linear story-telling, needing multiple characters or discussing wtf is going on with others to get the full scope of the story is awesome. I think the story of the gnolls and kobols, developing into the Defias, eventually leading to Blackrock Mountain, Onyxia, and Nefarian, is amazingly well done. Similarly, more on the Horde side, the rise of the Silithid, how you are uncovering a threat of life-forms that are so different than the Azerothians we know, a slowly evolving and ominous unfolding of a threat that renders the Alliance vs Horde struggle futile and inane, eventually facing off with a God. Finding some new quests with serious implications or some nice contained stories of loss and triumph somehow touch emotional strings the modern-day story-telling, even when directly trying to move an audience and using tech such as rendered cinematics, just doesn't reach. Some of my favorite quests to this day exist in the category of Clarice Foster's ''Until Death Do Us Part''. That shit did more to me than Anduin finding back his light. Duskwood and Stranglethorn Vale alone are full of tragic touching stories that still have a redeeming beat of hope and redemption... and that's not even touching the lands ravaged by the plague. The world had a certain weight that made me care about characters and their fate.
That said, I appreciate how WoW, since WotLK, has been made crazy accessible. I can gear up a character to be endgame-ready within a few in-game hours, rendering WoW a mix between an MMORPG and a MOBA. That convenience is antithetical to a classic MMO, where growth and development is integral, and requires real time to breathe and have the gravitas that make you excited about upgrades, and weirdly, have you bond with your character and the world they reside in.
Retail is really really awful.
Also Flying Mounts completely fucked WoW, it stopped feeling like a big world, you dont lose yourself in it anymore. it turned it into an ADHD speedrun everything game.
I dont see a lot of people talking about this point, but Flying Mounts played a HUGE role in WoW downfall.
What downfall are you talking about? Because if you mean Shadowlands then flying mounts definitely weren't the problem.
The best thing with classic was no doubt impact of certain items and how you would see a character rocking certain items you knew that character would absolutely hurt fighting.
Retail is very disneyified - Childish cringe story lines, unappealing childish characters, overthemed overbloomed environments almost like youre playing Hello Kitty etc etc
You ask what would need to change for me to pay up - A complete redesign but seeing how D4 did not hook me I doubt Blizzard has the talent for such a thing.
It definitely needs to move away from DF's My Little Pony style storytelling.
Retail is an action RPG lobby based MMO-lite
Classic wow is an open world MMORPG
PVP Retail: becuase classes compare to classic is more balanced but i do wish it was WOTLK still since kinda alot of other issues in retail pvp
PVE: im picking classic but again vanilla classic alot of the class designs is somewhat not finished: look at boomkins or arcane mages and i hope SOD would fix that so i can be both PVP/PVE there but PVP there is such a joke there and ofc my main class: mage is so bad now in season of discovery we are a PVE class purely now and somehow on PVP part we are a even more unfinished class and what it feels like then in Vanilla kinda why i am somewhat inbetween Retail/classic
Yeah! I kind of feel the same way. In retail I mostly enjoy PvP and only really do PvE for the cosmetic rewards. Then in classic I really like the chill PvE/levelling side.
@@shieldsftw i still wish for a vanilla +
where class balancing on PVP is more focused : so no class(or even specs) is left behind and is "unplayable" in PVP but also PVE too
but the reason i want balancing focused on PVP: if a broken class(underpowered OR overpowered) for PVE you are still "able" to play the game no matter if you play set overpowered or underpowered class or not BUT if a broken class for PVP you are unable to play the game unless you playing set powerful class yourself just see SOD with shamans 1v3-4 people in BGs and mages be a full PVE class now so its just worth it to die as fast as possible not even try to get a kill and not play the game
Classeses become more Finished
heck even balance classes around PVP BUT then balance the PVE content around the PVP balanced classes(since it will be easier than balance PVP around PVE balanced classes as they should have done at the first: look at rogue with unlimited Stealth timer: fine balance in PVE but in PVP all PVP games has a limit on stealth like time limit making it possible to make PVP servers 1 sided basically over longterm and why alot of people picking PVE server now and this is sololy becuase of 1x Class and people who 0 life griefing like this
world PVP would be insane more healthy and a good concept if it was not for the Rogue´s Stealth being unlimited time and no need to be forced out of stealth for some time
aswell as a higher level cant gank or help in any way to gank lower levels also need a fix for that
not much else i feel like they need for a vanilla plus other then finish classes spells+talent trees to make them feel more "complete"
ofc the dream would be like if they somehow merge vanilla/TBC/WOTLK content into like 1 big "expansion" and just call that for vanilla plus and scale down TBC/WOTLK stuff to lvl 60 and rework classes to be more completed
heck even take a look on retail/modern wow class designs and put it in classic+ but not overdo it either too much ofc but some of the concepts is still nice like x2 crits on fire mage = making pyroblast usefull in middle of a boss fight instead of only as starter spell(even highest DPS caster class+spec feels abit unfinished in vanilla why is pyroblast even a thing in the talent tree if not even gonna use it?)
also add Haste stat to vanilla plus please some specs can use it to become NOT useless
this way i dont think we "need" a era server for TBC/WOTLK as much and slipting the wow playerbase even more since this can be a good alternative: make TBC/WOTLK content the "current" content at same time as vanilla on a server
and i kinda just want to play 1x version for both my PVE/PVP needs instead of 2x versions of WoW
Currently i just use Retail WoW as my "equal" to login on a Moba Pick the "Character" i wanna play(aka a Class+spec) and just join battlegrounds(not much arenas i prefer objective base pvp) so i can kinda ignore alot of Retail wow´s issues in this video basically
and for WoW Lore: didnt read any text on anything in vanilla and still dont in Retail or skip cutscenes (and can confirm alot of people do this) ofc still important but that part can be very much ignored compare to the others
@@DoctorFlux Interesting ideas! Lets hope they make a classic +. I feel like SoD was a beta mode for testing what players would like in a classic +, so maybe its coming!
@@shieldsftw
PVE in SOD is fine even for a "beta"
but man PVP is such a pain it became so bad with balancing they made x2 mark of honor if losing AB battleground
and the ONLY core BIG difference on AB battleground is the paladin/Shaman
so instead of "playing" the game for honor and rewards (and im one who play PVP for Fun aswell as is a Gnome Mage main) the meta became:
alliance Dont play the game at all and lose as fast as possible becuase cant do much against Shamans anyway
Horde wins as fast as possible
This case here show why PVP balancing is more important then PVE balancing for a game that has both things beside you can anyway only raid 1 time a week per char. thats like afew hours(if not mins.) and yet too focused on balancing that over a thing you can do 24/7: PVPing becuase what to do if you dont feel like leveling a new char.? and after you are so much geared you only need stuff from current raid you can only join 1x times per week : why PVP is the real end game even more in vanilla yet 0 balancing for it
Retail also still have the same issue : so many AOEs it kinda made my polymorph kinda useless but classes needs that many AOEs becuase of m+ now and PVE content so rip using my poly smart now in PVP but atleast in retail ALOT more PVE content you can do per char. so PVP is not the true real end game and the only thing
@@DoctorFlux Yeah I've always felt like PvP is the real endgame for both classic and retail. Having a balanced PvP while still having meaningful class benefits is really important. I hope they focus on that.
My one issue with Classic is unless the server is highly populated and fairly new it makes leveling really suck because eventually no one runs the leveling dungeons, and there’s not enough quests without the dungeons so you have to grind mobs. On the flip side, if there’s too many people you end up sitting around half the time for mobs to spawn and trying to not get ganked. There almost never seems to be a happy medium where there’s a perfect balance of people and if there isn’t the experience suffers so much.
Most (not all) classic players contradict themselves. They say they hate the quick leveling in retail and want to enjoy the world and storylines in classic, but then they end up spamming scarlet monastery and zf all day. They say the hate M+ with its focus on execution and efficiency, but on classic they attempt to gather every single world buff before the raid to blitz through it.
The last answer really says it all. For most classic players, classic being better than retail is not an opinion based on careful consideration of both games. It's a religion.
That's because he asked "redditors". They have no idea what they're talking about and they're all exist in their tiny echo chamber, saying whatever they want to say.
That's a pretty bad take as far as I'm concerned. First of all , MOST classic plays absolutely do not level through dungeon spamming. That is just an absurd statement which is blatantly false, and I don't even know where you'd get this idea. A good amount of players do, especially on a Fresh launch, because they're sweaty, and want to get ahead of the pack, but even then it's a minority, and the further into the server progression you get, the fewer people you see doing that.
Second, and I've never actually played M+, since I quit retail before it was even introduced, but from what I can tell, you do at least have some point here, but the players who have this min-max mentality you describe, is still in the minority, and MOST people do not fall into this category. But even if you do compare M+ to the few guilds who actually do push their raids to do fast clears, there's a pretty significant difference between the two, as with M+ you have to adopt that mentality or you can't participate in the content, and reap the rewards, while in classic raids speedrunning is completely optional. You can do the exact same raids and get the exact same rewards for doing MC in four hours as you do from clearing in in thirty minutes.
There is literally no in-game reward from speedrunning raids in classic, it's completely optional, and people do it just to push themselves, and not to get the best gear available. And if you chose to take a more casual approach, which MOST people do, then they still get the same exact gear. So as you can see, there is a pretty clear and inherent difference between M+ and classic raiding, and even speedrunning the raids. Also, world buffs are 100% optional, and not only that, but getting them benefits not only the speed runners but also casual players. All you need to do is log on a few minutes before the raid and you can get the free Ony buff, and now your raid is even easier to clear and more casual friendly, and again, I don't know if MOST people even bother doing that. Those stats are probably available on Warcraftlogs, but I can't be bothered to look it up.
And last, but not least, the religion take is just brain dead, and I don't even know what sort of arguments you could possibly come up with to support it. I log on to retail, and I get bored with the leveling, and dungeon rushing, and sense of character progression (or lack there of) and get confused and overwhelmed by the two decades of mechanics and systems that have been stacked on top of each other, and all he dozens and dozens of other issues the game had. In fact, I log in, and I already don't feel like playing it, because I know exactly what's waiting for me, and I don't want any part of it.
Meanwhile, I log in to Classic, and I just love playing the game, and can play for hours every day for years on end. The retail experience is just not for me, and that's how so many other people feel as well, but it had nothing to do with being religious about it. I play other games as well, because they''re fun to me, but Retail is not fun to me, so I don't play it. If they made it fun again (which is probably nearly impossible at this point) then I would have no issue playing it again, after all, why would I? I even pay for the subscription already, so that would make no sense at all.
Not all classic players spam dungeons and some of them would quest if the leveling zones weren't so packed with players. Also M+ is a very different type of gameplay than popping buffs to see big numbers. Only a small subset of the classic community focuses on speedrunning, even most guilds that are more hardcore than semi-hardcore don't do speedruns at all. Even then, speedruns are a very different vibe from high end M+.
Just like retail, there are players at every level doing very different things, it wouldn't be very accurate to say otherwise.
My main problem with retail is the mindset of the players. Dungeons are just go go with no talking and if you fall behind or make a mistake they kick you. In classic dungeons are a two hour experience where everyone will make sure you get to finish your quests then ask if you need help with something else after.
To hard for button clickers lol
the difficulty in classic specifically without modern tools icy veins etc ( you had thottbot but thottbot sucked and most computers couldn't run wow AND the internet in a seperate tab) was in preparation and knowledge. today classic seems overly easy because you have access to all the info.
Im an end game raider in retail and when classic has a big playerbase i like it 1000x more.
I love both games. In retail I love the mythic grind and doing wow arena and trying to grind grind high end game content however I would go a step further for retail. In my opinion they should get rid of levelling all together in retail since its just an annoying little chore for my alts to get through.
Where as in classic I love the more slow and chill approach to the game and especially in hardcore classic with the high stakes play style.
Classic wow is hard in some cases but it is not complex like retail is so the little bit of difficulty combined with the MMO aspects makes it a great game.
The most significant difference is that in retail you can have quite hard challenges (mythic+ dungeons, raids). In classic the level of dedication necessary (guild, with regular raid appointments) is higher, and the level of challenge isn't particularly high. I believe retail goes too far in terms of complexity and providing simplification... actually a lot is badly designed... but a lot is good too. I enjoyed classic WoW a lot (multiple times) in the past. Currently I stick to retail because I need interesting (challenging) gameplay.
If you really are a competitive player as you describe in your comment, you are definitely playing the wrong genre.
@@greenlemon4402 Wrong genre? I am just a casual who likes challenges.
I'm an only retail player. There's a lot I miss from earlier expansions. Weapon training, having to pay your trainer to use more weapons, Hunters having to level their pets. Mounts were only available in later levels. But I stick to retail because I like a progressing story and it's exciting and a thrill to enter a new expac. I do dislike the lore have become soft and too emotional and I can't help but link it together with current times with people having to be shielded to protect their feeble emotions from negativity.
On the note of players who dislike this and that system and gearing, I often think if those players really DO want to play an MMO. They speed through the content and gear as fast as possible, to be the best PVPer/PVEer because they like to see big numbers, and I wonder if playing LoL or Counter Strike would be a better option for them.
2:24 I feel like saying "retail is moving further and further away from the MMO part and leaning more towards an RPG" isn't really true. It may be leaning away from an MMO, but it's also leaning away from an RPG. Honestly, it's leaning into being an online lobby game. This is coming from someone who still likes retail (and classic), but I definitely think classic is more RPG-like than retail is.
as someone who primarily plays tanks I got tired of the toxicity on day 1 of new content releases - if I dont already know a dungeon because I played the beta or PTR I'm a giant piece of shit according to most people I end up in dungeon finder with. At least in classic I already played it so I know the instances and am less likely to get shit on for not knowing exactly what I'm doing my first time through.
Damn bro, I feel you. Pugging as tank in new content is rough sometimes.
My opinion, as someone who started playing WoW in Cata, I am unfortunately used to the antisocial group finder of Retail. I was only in a raiding guild for a year in BFA before it fell apart when the game started dying. Before that, I’d play by myself, mostly LFR and occasionally Normal raid / M+ but only really to gear up to the threshold I needed to do basic things. I had a few friends throughout the years, they come and go, my current friends that I’ve known for years don’t play WoW but I’m trying to convince them to try - they say the graphics are the problem for WoW as a whole.
With that said, I think my only issue with Classic is just that I started playing too late, Classic is simply a different game to me, I prefer the faster paced leveling for the endgame. I’m glad people who grew up with Vanilla were able to get what they wanted, though. I still watch clips of Classic to experience it through others, but it’s not for me at all. And that’s okay :)
When you log in and there's level 1s riding motorbikes with full gear sets looking like a Max level character, that's blown it for me.
To me, they just need to shorten the quests in retail to make them quicker to do and give players an express route to experience a storyline through each expansion so within let’s say 10 quests you could do the whole storyline for a single expansion if it’s older if it’s a new expansion, of course you have a more played out version with longer quest more things to do, etc. but older expansions you just need Crib notes.
I always find people's perspective on this can be so wildly different. People online, in the forums and in videos always claim that classic is all about community but when I play it I get a lot more "kill your own mob" or spend hours looking for a group to do anything. There are communities in classic but they are more clickish than they are inclusive. No one will help unless there is something in it for them.
When it comes to retail there are also a lot of communities for a lot of different things. They just aren't in the world as much for leveling purposes.
When it comes down to it the community is the same. Retail just has more content to do.
Classic will always be better in my mind, but when I start a new character, I go nah I’m good. Playing classic just isn’t feasible with current lifestyle, speaking for myself ofc
I play and enjoy both . No game should change both have their own fun way to play
Yeah, I Agree.
ok i want to weigh in on this I personally play both, I love TWW and for the most part unironically enjoyed DF. But, I also played in 2004 vanilla and got scarab lord in 2019 classic. I hope that makes it clear i really REALLY love classic. hell im playing SoD/hardcore as i type this out. with all of that intro out of the way let me cut right to it.
Classic is THE WoW experience if you play it correctly. This game is that good show of old school mmo play. as you said in the video Exp, Leveling, and progression looping that made it so addicting. BUT, only when you make a decision in this crossroad. Are you gonna play meta or are you gonna go for the slow "meaningful journey"? do you want parses or do you want to experience the game for what it should be: a social, old dnd 2/3.5 edition game with a "Living world"? BOTH are valid but you have to make that decision because some people are for that and some just want parses and i have learned over the years they just don't play well together. over the course of classic 2019 my raid managed to make both work until we hit the wall that was AQ after grinding scarab lord and naxx did us in. this was partially due to people wanting to change from a casual clearing team into something a bit more competitive.
my raid team at the start had about in Its 40 man comp 12 warriors but we also had 2 deep prots and 2 impale prots off the cuff and no one did the meta fury/prot till much later ( I wanted to do it) but the kicker for bosses like majordomo we had a Prot paladin who became one of my closest friends of all time. we using this tactic got us so much flak from our server because its not meta. but for a solid few months we had the fastest kill on majordomo with this on our server and we never had issue with the boss outside of a few unlucky teleports. as time went on we even went as far as to let my prot paladin friend tank bosses using 3000 symbols and spamming greater blessing of kings on all 12 warriors at once the buff aggro was so large, we broke our threat meters it was hilarious. we would never have had that experience if we never played outside meta decisions.
now the other side we had a few raid teams in our guild. we had one that were meta hard pumper players going for big parses. did they have as much fun? i would argue even more some times but, its because they all signed up to do so and love the rush of speed running raids.
now for Retail i feel the game has better controls, better features, and better options for play. Dynamic is a word I would also throw in its very much with recent expansions even starting to feel like a 5th edition DnD game. in blizzards run for getting more people to play they made a super diverse game with plenty of options for every type of player.... except the full on slow social mmo player who wants what classic offers but with these features as options and again this, like classic is partially on the players. let me explain.
I was also once in the camp of most retail hating classic players around WoD sunk my love for retail. i still played until BFA dropped my love for the game in to the depths. it then became my opinion that the social aspects of the game were destroyed by LFG and LFR. They were the key culprits of ruining social feeling and ruin MMOs....and then i played FF14.
no joke i saw they had SEVERAL LFG queues and i was gonna quit on the spot.
im glad i did not the game is great has social feeling even with random dungeons. Because that community still did and do their best to make the most out of meeting each other even for a single run. with a simple o/ in the chat to break the ice I felt "damn this is pretty good" once the dungeon was over i even got to add people to friends list because we hit it off in conversation because people were willing to just say hi and shoot the shit. it proved to me you can still have random queues and still have a social game the players just have to be willing.
honestly lately i been seeing that more and more in wow retail but it still needs time to naturalize I think. I say this in mind with the fact that you are definitely pressing more buttons in retail than classic or FF14 so time to stop and chat breaks flow a little too much. this can still happen in those games but waiting on mana for example helps with that too it gives time for that reprieve and time to talk.
I might update this later if I feel I have more to talk about
Cool to hear your thoughts on these matters. Thanks for taking the time to type this all out!
I feel the need to remind people of the power progression between Vanilla and Burning Crusade where first zone greens outperformed old end game content and how having reputation with any of the older factions meant nothing in the new content. - That's how you kill player enthusiam
Those are all great things imo. Current content should be important. Why would you want to run 60 content at 70?
i mean do you want the new added items to be worse? what would be the point of adding new items then.. its a new Chapter for the players
@@Teegetraenktrinker You must be a blizzard employee to see no issue that your last end game content that required 40 man raids are all useless in launch day.
Retail is overstimulating, there's too much crap going on, we like wow classic because it's relaxing and you get to enjoy the open world, the ambience sound and everything you do matters.
Yeah retail open world feels super cluttered with world quests and events etc.
I recently created a hunter in reailt, and decided to chromie to boralus.
Well, no people to do the dungeons that are required by the story.
No problem, i can come back after 5 levels and solo the dungeon, right? Right?
Big Nope!
The dungeons scales.
I can't solo it.
Can't find people to do it.
If i dont use chromie, then the dungeon stops scaling to max level .... but it keeps scaling to the expansion level (60), so i'am obliged to outlevel the expansion to solo the dungeons.
Instead of a fun storyline, now i have a story that cant be completed until i rush outside, levelup, come back waaay overleveled, and solo it.
Or use group finder. You can dislike it if you want, but no reason to be disingenuous.
@iamjustkiwi i usually play sessions of one hour. One hour in group finder and no group found.
When i say "no people to do the dungeons", lfg is included.
I would play SOD but just don't have time to play it without rdf tool :/
I agree with you 100%. They're just two different games that I enjoy for different reasons. I like the competitive style of retail but once I reach my goals for the season, I like to chill and play Classic
If you feel like you are levelling too fast in retail and don't have the time to experience the bigger stories their is a NPC in most major cities that You can go to that will stop your character from levelling until you are ready to move onto the next expansion or zone of the one you are currently playing in.
I may be wrong but it feels wrong to compare the progression of classic leveling to the progression in retail of new raid tiers and xpacs dropping. As a classic player, I’d argue that while my MC gear had me feeling like I was on top of the world it was still a challenge to do BWL. Basically a new raid dropped and my power needed to increase to play that new content. Which is how retail works when a new season or xpac drops
As someone who left the MMO community after EverQuest, because I got married and started a family, I have often wanted to enjoy WoW. There is clearly a tone of solid content that I have only scratched the surface of, by playing solo for a few months every two to three years. Thus, my take may be wildly different than most. What I want most is something like a time locked progression server. With classic style fixed zone levels, but the more polished retail engine. I would get of any group finding tools that automatically transport you to the group. Tools that help people find groups are great, but everyone should have to travel to the dungeon/raid, so that the scale of the world is always felt and portals are relevant. Or to say it another way, I want to experience the full scope of the content that is WoW, but the classic presentation seems dated when compared to retail. Though the Disney like story telling aspect of retail is definitely a downgrade.
Outside of systems: wow classic is popular because ppl are generally comfortable playing an old nostalgia version of the game & themselves, where they do not feel forced to min/max and even if they do the barriers to entry are small towards min/maxing, more about gear. For ex:they can use an auto rotation addon like Hekilii without someone telling them that it is using an old APL, the APL is practically mold on the wall. They do not want to be dragged out of their familiar comfort zone, they do not like conflicts and that is it. It is a bunch of smurfs running around in a circle.
I took a long break from WOW retail. So I tried the custom WOW game Project Ascension which shares a lot of the same things as retail and found a lot of what the classic players found as annoying. The side systems were just confusing and half the time i had no idea how to make them work. The level scaling made it impossible to farm for ore and made leveling my character feel pointless. What i hated about retail was at some point flying in the new zones required you to increase your reputation with factions and that was just a grind of ridiculous proportions! I maxed out my level before questing all of the new zones making the other zones feel kind of pointless. The seasons changing your gear was stupid. The Garrison building in Draenor at first felt like old Warcraft but then became just boring and limited. However I like the group finder for raids and dungeons. I like collecting mounts.
I think the main thing that classic has going for it is the leveling curve. Like, sure, getting to experience endgame is fun, but after not playing for years I wanted to run back through some expansions. I ran through Legion recently and was forced to lock my level if I didn’t want to instantly one shot everything, and I hadn’t even completed half the expansion before hitting 69. I locked my level and enjoyed the story, but all sense of progression halted. Characters level too fast imho, I want to experience the parts I missed how they were intended, which realistically I guess is too much to ask, but if we leveled at a slower rate, I think a lot of that “mmo feeling” would be restored.
Good overall video, ive been playing since 05 and i still enjoy leveling. Retail is just...lonely. Hard to describe the feeling, but whenever i made new connections on retail i inevitably run into a problem of not being able to push past a wall and it kinda fizzles the relationships. Getting hardstuck on a +12 jade temple for something simple just kinda made things wierd as i would regularly play +18 etc.
Additionally i would like to mention that classic is not finished. There is still so much room to fit in new quests, areas, dungeons, raids, and most importantly just cool loot. I dont mind going to MC a million times even if naxx is open, but the loot has gotten stagnant and fighting over it also has burnt out many friends. I personally seriously burnt out during legion because the the legendary that was 30% of my dps was one of the last ones i got despite being ret pretty much the whole time. No matter how hard i pushed myself i let my team down because i couldnt mathematically put out an extra 15-20% more not due to my lack of skill but RNG.
There is alot of loot we could add to classic throughout the 1-60 range, and finally break the edgemasters curse. Green quality ranged weapons with hit chance existed since vanilla in the database but never implemented leading to an impending doom of efficiency. There is little option to fill those gaps and the big pieces people really want just dont drop.
I dont have a good answer for a healthy RNG system for raid loot but what we have in classic is not the best as we disnt know better in the early 2000s.
Quite surprised that WoW players dislike vertical progression.
I love it. If I don’t have gear to chase, I’m bored of the game.
A lot of the classic fanbase wants to be able to have the best of the best, problem being its quite easy, so its jam packed with identical characters geared to the gills who all look the same. At least in retail there's new stuff to aim for in fairly frequent chunks. Some people view that as having their effort to get their previous gear rendered meaningless but i genuinely don't get that. If you got to enjoy being strong for a while you still got your enjoyment eithout being forever done either
I love WoW classic, especially TBC and WotLK. Personally, if there are some things I appreciate from retail, they are the graphics, the attack and spell casting animations, and transmog. I believe these two features from retail don´t break the feeling of playing in a living, classic world; they just make it more graphically updated according to the modern days.
My least fave thing about retail is that everything becomes worthless a patch later. In classic there is 5-man loot that’s an option till essentially naxx. Diamond flask, HoJ, some hit stuff, etc. same with raids DFT from BWL will take most melee to BiS. There’s a reason to do more than current content for gear and helping people get gear.
I've played both, enjoyed both. But I prefer Retail for the gameplay. And more fast paced combat. The graphics. and dragon flying are huge win. I'm a PvP main i enjoy that as my end game. I actually enjoy leveling new toons through questing/dungeon griding. But it is WAY more relaxful and fun to world quest in classic by FAR. As what killed most and PvE for me in retail was the level scaling with monsters as you feel that you don't get stronger getting more gear till your max level.
The issue is mentality. I'm raid leading a guild that is casual PvE since BFA. We're clearing HC every tier and we're avoiding the hell out of mythic. We could do some mythic. Over the years I could probably make CE group. But it brings so much potential drama that it's not even worth it. And every single time someone asks me "what spec should I play" I always tell them "whatever You like". And when people are telling me only meta can do HC or only meta can do "highest rewarded m+" that are +10 at this point on time I know it's just a skill issue. +10 and HC raid can be done in every single spec in this game. Not super fast, it has to be progressed. But I can easily say it's doable. I played classic a little, but endgame without guild was just hellish. With guild You just go, clear everything easy AF and get bored. But with pug? Those ppl will bitch out after single wipe and wouldn't like to progress. And while on retail it is also common, there is just so many realms to get new ppl to pug that it's way less problematic.
And while I agree that lvling in retail sucks, story is really nice, but one have to actually read it, not only watch those flashy cinematics. Most of the points talked about in this video are spot on. Yeah You can't expect to leave retail for even a single season and come back knowing what to do. And yeah older zones are "dead" so I can't blame anyone for choosing classic. And yet some people just love to paint retail as the worst thing. It's paced differently, and it is harder to keep up, but in the end YOU as a player decide what is Your endgame, and that's it.
This if you have some sort of an organized group you can do Heroic Raid and +10 till +13 Key without a Meta specc. Its more often bring the player not the class but the mentality and every streamers tier list tell them to reroll to a meta specc to suck badly at it because they don't know how to play it.