This video references my Winnower video, and the one I made about the Pyramid Race's Golden Age. If you want the full context, here are the links to them. The Winnower Video: ua-cam.com/video/PurnxHBO6DQ/v-deo.html The Pyramid Race's Golden Age Video: ua-cam.com/video/qEJTGEKBI5o/v-deo.html
Crackpot theory: The final shape isn’t the winnower or the gardener winning. It’s the veiled statues. The veil or winnower(?) covering the gardener, essentially becoming one and ending the transformation to the game that the gardener started. The gardener obviously doesn’t want this and flees with/in the traveler, until arriving to Sol where there isn’t anywhere left to run.
so I think the veiled statues are a metaphor for the veiled traveler, not the gardener. The fusion of light and dark, the raw force of nature under the veil of intent, of consciousness. That is what I believe the actual final shape is as the winnower sees it: the greatest power of the physical and the immaterial realm in the hands of a conscious being, wielding it to become invincible, immortal. The strongest being in the universe, the actualization of the sword logic. Prismatic also brought the term transcendent to Destiny, and to me, transcendence in this context is literally going beyond light and dark, rising above to fuse both to reach limitless power. Philosophically this is reflected in the game as a temporary boost to the recharge rate of all abilities, in us becoming more resistant to damage, and in transcendence as a state extending its duration with the destruction of enemies. We are still in the very early stages of reaching transcendence, very far from what the final shape would be, which I believe is expressed in the short duration of the state, the recharge rate not being instantaneous, no unlimited supers and the fact that even though we become more resilient we are still very much killable. To finish off, if the gardener and the witness both became a part of the game, it may be that the traveler and the veil are the physical manifestations of their diminished self. So the traveler makes sense in this context as almost mute, lacking memory, but with the power to seed life and somehow pushes any civilization it comes into contact with to quickly develop into a more complex and advance form of itself. The way I see it, this all lines up with the gardener's philosophy.
I like your theory about the pyramid being ancient humans. Its my preferred theory, but Bungie already did that in older games in variations. On the veiled statue... My theory before this expansion was that the veil is some kind of device that can kind of mute the traveller. Wasnt it in unveiling were they said the gardener and winnower cant kill each other? So I always thought the veiled woman statue is a depiction of what the witness planned. They want to kind of mute the traveler. They xan kill each other, but why try if you can take out the gardener from the game by veiling them. But no clue where they are going with Final Shape.
29:28 I think the deathless one was eris addressing to us but who knows I hope not and instead is hinting at the winnower’s existence. Also I want to add that ikora mentioned of eris hearing whispers, and what did maya sundaresh experienced during her link with the veil, fucking WHISPERS.
I've seen others say that, but we do die a lot as Guardians, and on top of that we died before we were resurrected. The Eternal Sword that's mentioned in my opinion must be related to the Sword Logic, and imo we've seen that sword a lot (it's in Pyramid architecture and in some Nine stuff). As for it being the Winnower, considering there aren't any other characters who are deathless and are depicted with a sword, I feel like the Winnower is the only option. Now as to why Eris is hailing them, I'd say it is a result of her tapping into the Sword Logic to gain strength this season.
always enjoyed your videos over the years venex. I have a bit of raw conceptual take on the veiled statue but I see it as a form of imagery used to show something thats not physically there until given presence. possibly linking to the idea of the gardener being manifested in final shape. I best see it as how in old movies ghost would be shown invisible until you threw a blanket over them. I still have a lot of questions on if the winnower and gardener are even separate entities though.
Thanks for the comment, and for watching my videos! The ghost analogy is really interesting and isn't something I had heard of before. What makes you wonder if the two aren't separate?
BRO. What better argument to make, than to uplift the same species twice, and have them make two different choices. The first became the witness, and the second became the last city in a ring of spears. There is no inevitable final shape, because there is choice. The final shape could always choose not to be, if given the option, or given the opportunity to choose. You wouldn't see it if the opportunity only arose once.
I’m not forcing it! I’m goofy with my friends and I enjoy doing it in videos too. If I feel like it’s overbearing I’ll turn it down, but atm I’m just having fun :). Makes the videos less stressful to create as well tbh.
At 33:00, you mention the Books of Sorrow having been retconned insofar as the post-Collapse actions of the Hive and I am curious as to what you mean by this.
Good question! Also love the profile pic :D. In the Books of Sorrow the three siblings separated, in order for each of them to become stronger on their own. After the Gift Mast incident Savvie straight up goes into a black hole to get as far away as possible. At the same time, Oryx said that he would follow the Deep and record its actions. So Crota being at the Collapse makes perfect sense, and if Oryx was there that too. So the idea that Savvie was at the Collapse breaks the BoS, because the siblings being together hurt their ability to become stronger, with Oryx being the main culprit of this. Xivu says he takes up too much space, and bars her throne world shut. A small point, and a bit petty, but on the Moon and Earth there are no Hive from Savvie, only from Oryx and Crota. I'd also argue that Savvie set up shop on Titan after Oryx's death. So really what we're looking at is very strong evidence if not certainty that Oryx and Crota were the only Hive that should have been at the Collapse, and so like the Witness being the one to deceive the Hive, I believe this is a retcon on Bungie's end to suit their new story, which in this case is the turning of Savvathun into a sympathetic character and possibly a hero eventually.
@@Venextron I appreciate the reply, and the compliment! I love this picture, so I figured I would slap it on. As for the retcon, I can see where you are coming from but I have a somewhat different take: Savathûn could have been at the Collapse a number of ways without breaking the Books of Sorrow, primarily in my view as an observer that the Witness might not have known about or perhaps invited. The Hive easily could have separated as in the Books and still combined their forces to enact Humanity’s Collapse on orders of the Witness. Or perhaps Savathûn wasn’t supposed to be there and showed up to steal the Veil from Nezarec as she did. Savathûn not having any Hive on the Moon could make sense if only she herself was there, especially if it was meant to be an asset denial-type thing where she simply went along herself and kept her brood occupied elsewhere. I am, however, curious for your thoughts on the way Nezarec was introduced in a supporting role to the Witness. Frankly it bothers me almost as much as Xivu’s intro and portrayal.
Doesn’t the upended create gravity anomalies? It literally pulled and squeezed planets. Therefore does that remove evidence of the darkness being at earth?
Did some research and the upended is Lubraen tech converted to serve Ruhlk’s purposes. It’s also powered by the Worm Xita. In my opinion there’s nothing Darkness or even inherently Pyramid about it. I don’t believe the presence of this weapon was what the Exodus Green encountered, and I don’t think the Light would have had a hard time beating it, let alone the fact that the clash of the two forces created the Awoken, and that Savvie was able to contain it in her realm.
This just popped in my head but I think there may be some merit to it. When you mentioned the Gardener slipping away, do you think Taox could be the gardener? Could there be any truth to that?
This video references my Winnower video, and the one I made about the Pyramid Race's Golden Age. If you want the full context, here are the links to them.
The Winnower Video: ua-cam.com/video/PurnxHBO6DQ/v-deo.html
The Pyramid Race's Golden Age Video: ua-cam.com/video/qEJTGEKBI5o/v-deo.html
Alternative: mommy of light.
Crackpot theory:
The final shape isn’t the winnower or the gardener winning. It’s the veiled statues. The veil or winnower(?) covering the gardener, essentially becoming one and ending the transformation to the game that the gardener started. The gardener obviously doesn’t want this and flees with/in the traveler, until arriving to Sol where there isn’t anywhere left to run.
so I think the veiled statues are a metaphor for the veiled traveler, not the gardener. The fusion of light and dark, the raw force of nature under the veil of intent, of consciousness. That is what I believe the actual final shape is as the winnower sees it: the greatest power of the physical and the immaterial realm in the hands of a conscious being, wielding it to become invincible, immortal. The strongest being in the universe, the actualization of the sword logic.
Prismatic also brought the term transcendent to Destiny, and to me, transcendence in this context is literally going beyond light and dark, rising above to fuse both to reach limitless power. Philosophically this is reflected in the game as a temporary boost to the recharge rate of all abilities, in us becoming more resistant to damage, and in transcendence as a state extending its duration with the destruction of enemies.
We are still in the very early stages of reaching transcendence, very far from what the final shape would be, which I believe is expressed in the short duration of the state, the recharge rate not being instantaneous, no unlimited supers and the fact that even though we become more resilient we are still very much killable.
To finish off, if the gardener and the witness both became a part of the game, it may be that the traveler and the veil are the physical manifestations of their diminished self.
So the traveler makes sense in this context as almost mute, lacking memory, but with the power to seed life and somehow pushes any civilization it comes into contact with to quickly develop into a more complex and advance form of itself. The way I see it, this all lines up with the gardener's philosophy.
I like your theory about the pyramid being ancient humans. Its my preferred theory, but Bungie already did that in older games in variations.
On the veiled statue... My theory before this expansion was that the veil is some kind of device that can kind of mute the traveller. Wasnt it in unveiling were they said the gardener and winnower cant kill each other? So I always thought the veiled woman statue is a depiction of what the witness planned. They want to kind of mute the traveler. They xan kill each other, but why try if you can take out the gardener from the game by veiling them.
But no clue where they are going with Final Shape.
This works so well with the Winnower video. I'm really glad you did it.
:0D
“I am all that was, and is, and shall be, and no mortal hath ever Me unveiled.”
29:28 I think the deathless one was eris addressing to us but who knows I hope not and instead is hinting at the winnower’s existence. Also I want to add that ikora mentioned of eris hearing whispers, and what did maya sundaresh experienced during her link with the veil, fucking WHISPERS.
I've seen others say that, but we do die a lot as Guardians, and on top of that we died before we were resurrected. The Eternal Sword that's mentioned in my opinion must be related to the Sword Logic, and imo we've seen that sword a lot (it's in Pyramid architecture and in some Nine stuff). As for it being the Winnower, considering there aren't any other characters who are deathless and are depicted with a sword, I feel like the Winnower is the only option. Now as to why Eris is hailing them, I'd say it is a result of her tapping into the Sword Logic to gain strength this season.
@@Venextron i see now well I hope thats the case
always enjoyed your videos over the years venex. I have a bit of raw conceptual take on the veiled statue but I see it as a form of imagery used to show something thats not physically there until given presence. possibly linking to the idea of the gardener being manifested in final shape. I best see it as how in old movies ghost would be shown invisible until you threw a blanket over them. I still have a lot of questions on if the winnower and gardener are even separate entities though.
Thanks for the comment, and for watching my videos! The ghost analogy is really interesting and isn't something I had heard of before. What makes you wonder if the two aren't separate?
Haven't watched it yet but I can already tell this is spicy, I'll go get my snacks
What snacks? {:0)
BRO. What better argument to make, than to uplift the same species twice, and have them make two different choices. The first became the witness, and the second became the last city in a ring of spears. There is no inevitable final shape, because there is choice. The final shape could always choose not to be, if given the option, or given the opportunity to choose. You wouldn't see it if the opportunity only arose once.
Hard agree with that.
Your voice is perfect bro. No need to accentuate with cartoonish voices. Your jokes are funny as they are! Otherwise, excellent content, as always.
I’m not forcing it! I’m goofy with my friends and I enjoy doing it in videos too. If I feel like it’s overbearing I’ll turn it down, but atm I’m just having fun :). Makes the videos less stressful to create as well tbh.
Haha thats cool man, I thought you were going for a trademark Myelin "peace" with the cracking voice. You stay your awesome self.
26:00 i keep geeting called out 😔😅
but honestly, I always thought the veiled woman statue was the gardener. But i’d be interested if it was not
CLOSE THOSE TABS }:0)
let's goooo a new video
;0)
At 33:00, you mention the Books of Sorrow having been retconned insofar as the post-Collapse actions of the Hive and I am curious as to what you mean by this.
Good question! Also love the profile pic :D.
In the Books of Sorrow the three siblings separated, in order for each of them to become stronger on their own. After the Gift Mast incident Savvie straight up goes into a black hole to get as far away as possible.
At the same time, Oryx said that he would follow the Deep and record its actions. So Crota being at the Collapse makes perfect sense, and if Oryx was there that too.
So the idea that Savvie was at the Collapse breaks the BoS, because the siblings being together hurt their ability to become stronger, with Oryx being the main culprit of this. Xivu says he takes up too much space, and bars her throne world shut.
A small point, and a bit petty, but on the Moon and Earth there are no Hive from Savvie, only from Oryx and Crota. I'd also argue that Savvie set up shop on Titan after Oryx's death.
So really what we're looking at is very strong evidence if not certainty that Oryx and Crota were the only Hive that should have been at the Collapse, and so like the Witness being the one to deceive the Hive, I believe this is a retcon on Bungie's end to suit their new story, which in this case is the turning of Savvathun into a sympathetic character and possibly a hero eventually.
@@Venextron I appreciate the reply, and the compliment! I love this picture, so I figured I would slap it on.
As for the retcon, I can see where you are coming from but I have a somewhat different take: Savathûn could have been at the Collapse a number of ways without breaking the Books of Sorrow, primarily in my view as an observer that the Witness might not have known about or perhaps invited. The Hive easily could have separated as in the Books and still combined their forces to enact Humanity’s Collapse on orders of the Witness. Or perhaps Savathûn wasn’t supposed to be there and showed up to steal the Veil from Nezarec as she did.
Savathûn not having any Hive on the Moon could make sense if only she herself was there, especially if it was meant to be an asset denial-type thing where she simply went along herself and kept her brood occupied elsewhere.
I am, however, curious for your thoughts on the way Nezarec was introduced in a supporting role to the Witness. Frankly it bothers me almost as much as Xivu’s intro and portrayal.
Doesn’t the upended create gravity anomalies? It literally pulled and squeezed planets. Therefore does that remove evidence of the darkness being at earth?
Did some research and the upended is Lubraen tech converted to serve Ruhlk’s purposes. It’s also powered by the Worm Xita. In my opinion there’s nothing Darkness or even inherently Pyramid about it. I don’t believe the presence of this weapon was what the Exodus Green encountered, and I don’t think the Light would have had a hard time beating it, let alone the fact that the clash of the two forces created the Awoken, and that Savvie was able to contain it in her realm.
This just popped in my head but I think there may be some merit to it. When you mentioned the Gardener slipping away, do you think Taox could be the gardener? Could there be any truth to that?
Nope!
@@Venextron fair lol
Who makes up the darkness trinity?
I’d say the Winnower, the Witness, and the Veil
When I said that, I was referring to the Winnower, Black Fleet and the Hive.