Personally I am still of the opinion that the Gardener and Winnower are not actual beings, just personified forces of the universe from a story that is mentioned many times to be metaphorical. Neither of them have a will or ideology, and saying otherwise is like saying it is the will of Gravity that things move closer together. Technically it makes sense, but it's not a conscious action of an actual being, just a way the universe works.
I think about this a lot and I completely agree. The winnower seems to be the force that reduces possibilities, like how an atom will collapse its’ wave functions upon observation until there is only one space in the universe that atom could be and that’s the atom we see. The gardener seems to increase possibilities. But they’re two sides of the same coin in this sense, if only the gardener existed every micrometer of space everywhere in the universe would be occupied by all possible things that could be there at once, everything everywhere all at once, which really means there is nothing because there is no difference between anything. If only the winnower existed there would only be the ‘final shape’, the only thing that can exist because it inherently decreases the possibility of anything else existing. When they interact in a balanced way the universe truly becomes beautiful, evolution is essentially these two forces interacting. The gardener creating mutations and new variations on existing forms, while the winnower causes those that can not sustain there own existence to die, leaving enough resources for those left behind to flourish and continue to diversify into new, more complex and interesting organisms. Life itself is the balance of light and dark in the universe of destiny. In my opinion anyway.
Also the glaives are intrinsically linked to the darkness in particular nezerecs whisper seems like it was a gift to commemorate his upgrade to disciple. But when you read the Lore tab of the glaive he left it abandoned. Why would he do that. That's his sin. The witness wants no more life no more death which would equal no more pain. I believe nezerec is like us. As a guardian we are capable of using both light and dark. Nezerec is both the brightest light and the darkest hour. The wording is key. Light is a physical construct while hour is a measurement of time. Time is not a physical construct it is ... Formless. Sorry I'm being edgy but I'm hyped about this and have been thinking about it a lot. I only wish Nezerecs whisper was void so I could truly use it with the helmet
Also consider the possibility that nezerec is an ancient human. You said before yourself that the pyramid contains some semblance of humanity in regards to the tablets on the pyramid what if Nezerec was an ancient light bearer. One that every time the witness comes to Bear to fight he is resurrected by his ghost to fight. I know it's a long shot but consider this his glaive fits human hands and it has since Eris was the first to find it.
We know from Savvie that they were gifted the Light, and Nezarec's exotic is Void. I wouldn't surprised if he had both the Light and the Darkness at his disposal.
@@Venextron Even with a Glaive your theory over all is a long reach. There already is a formless "Race" that exists in Desiny Lore, what ever "The Nine" are. Frankly, I think you like many others are taking thingsblike the story of the Gardener and the Winnower too literally. You need to remember that these stories often come from unreliable narrators or are tales of entities older than the Universe itself. To think that any tale from that long ago would be so literal as to depict two individual beings of opposed absolutes is beyond far fetched. So we need to consider what is plausibly litral and what is more likely metaphor or symbolism for something else. The conflict between Light and Dark is fairly evident, however have you considered the conflict wasn't originally about a literal war between the two? Or what the Final Shape would even be removed from the simplistic defnitions of the sword logic, like what if you applied Sword Logic to a different scale? Given the Formless nature of the race whom supposedly built and operate the Dorito Ships, what race built/operates the Traveler? More importantly, if they are of a different race then how would such a conflict have occured?? Or could it be that they are of the same formless race as one another. Perhaps they each had fundamentally different views on how to interact with our material universe of form and that conflict spilled out into our universe, like the Gardener and Winnower wrestling one another in their garden allegedly did. The Traveller's side wanting this universe to continue expanding the void between it's planets and masses. To allow the endless possibilities of new Solar life to bloom and to not be prematurely snuffed out Where the positive Arc charge of active life thriving and striving to continue onward. Where as the Witness's side is consigned to the decline of life from Corruption, Poisons & Decay. The inevitable heat death of the universe where all is frozen in Stasis. Only to become a memory, Resonant within the once active total mass crushing in on itself. A memory of when it were once vastly seperated. This Final Shape of all things, before the Universe born anew in spectacular a Solar blaze. Only to end up here again, and again, and again.
god I hope that part of what the witness chose to forget was that nezarec was their king or at least one of them. They did Nezarec so dirty in RoN- he HAS to come back
lmao I can't stop thinking about how nezarec might be sekhmet. Maybe it was Nezarec's choice (as king of the precursors) to unite the light and dark above their homeworld but the consensus exiled nezarec after his actions caused the traveler to abandon them
my theory is that nezarec might have been witness disciple , he rebeld , that was his sin , and thats why his glave was abandonned, he used to be the owner of the lunar pyramid , and he created the nightmares , it would be fitting for him since thier puropse is to cause pain and he was propably killed by witness beacuse in some drifter lore we can read that drifter said he was in a tomb of nezarec
Only thing is the Witness has been stated to be the Voice in the Dark, which was said to be the same one that spoke to us in the Black Garden, which was the same one that wrote Unveiling and explicitly stated that the Winnower/Gardener names and concept were analogies about their purposes before they entered the "game" themselves and became more than just math (Traveler and Witness apparently). Light and Dark are neutral physics of the universe created by the two, but they've become personal agents that wield them as far as we know now. The Witness is just the one that controls Darkness and makes it "Dark", raising Disciples like Rhulk, who in turn groomed Savathun and apparently Nezarec to become Disciples, though Savathun denied them. Another thing is that we now know Egregore can act as, in a way, a nervous system for the Witness. A way to spread and feel out the universe. The Pyramids as well all connect to one point, sharing the same frequency, seemingly to the place the Witness is chilling at or the Witness itself. I do like the video tho, actually pretty cool if you turn out to be right
@@Venextron It's heavily implied by the Europa Pyramid mission in TWQ campaign. Eris states: "In her journeys beyond the heliopause, Queen Mara Sov encountered the entity that commands the Pyramids. She said its mind spoke louder than any other she has ever heard. A cacophony of thought. Perhaps those voices steer these ships. One of those voices invited you to this Pyramid once before." This same voice spoke to us in the Moon Pyramid when it took over our Ghost and subsequently made its appearance as a reflection of us, something it stated it wouldn't be able to do in Unveiling unless it emulated our minds first, meaning whatever has been speaking to us had to do so, and that being has now been named as the Witness. So yeah, Unveiling was a whole lot of metaphor, but the Voice in the Dark, the Entity, the Winnower, etc etc are all just the many voices of the Witness, the being that controls its "knives" the Pyramids, raises Disciples and created the Sword Logic. Now Bungie could throw a curve ball and make the Winnower a real thing instead of metaphor if they wanted to, and retcon what Mara, Eris and others said, but I don't think they will when Lightfall and the Final Shape are right around the corner.
Like you said, the witness isn't the darkness, the witness is the equivalent of the pilot of the traveler imo. We don't know who controls the Traveler. Nezarec is a disciple, like Calus, Rhulk, etc. He will control a pyramid at some point. Your take is definitely interesting though.
id rather think used to be a disciple but he rebeled against the witness thats his sin thats, why his glaive is abandoned in the lunar piramid . I also think lunar piramid used to be his since the nightmares are created to cause pain so it would be fitting for him create them as defense system for the pyramid.
Nezerec was written about by pre-Golden Age humanity, not the pyramid race. The description Nezerec’s Whisper is “‘Rise, Disciple, and bear this gift with pride.’ -Rhulk, Disciple of The Witness”. The lore tab then says that Eris finds that glaive in the Lunar pyramid, insinuating that Nezerec was in fact a disciple of the Witness.
We actually don't know where Eris found the glaive, as she was teleported from the Pyramid to another location. It could be another chamber in the same ship, but we just don't know. As for Nezarec being a Disciple, the information that we do have about Nezarec just doesn't make sense if you put it in the context of him being a Disciple. It will probably be clarified later on, but at the moment I just can't understand it at all.
According to two of Savathuns lines, the Witness was either the creator of the Darkness, or was created by it to serve it. These lines contradict one another, making us believe that only one is a lie and the other is a truth. However, I think Savathun might be lying to us about both. It’s actually really likely that the Witness is both not the creator of the Darkness, nor it’s creation/servant. To understand why and how, we must understand the idea behind the Darkness and the Light. In order for someone to receive the light, the Traveler must give it to you, whilst the power of the dark must be taken from the Pyramids. Therefore, if the Witness is neither creator or creation of the Darkness, then it’s very likely that the Witness is just a being that took most of the power of the Darkness for themselves. The Darkness serves the Witness, not as the Witnesses creation, but rather as a power that is controlled by them. And, the Witness serves the Darkness back by using its power to hunt down the light and fulfill its final design. What we are likely up against is a entity possessing the power of the Darkness, not simply the creator or servant of it. As possible as it would be for the Witness to be the Pyramids creator, or for the Witness to simply be a mouthpiece created by the Darkness itself, it’s also very likely that due to the laws and rules of the Darkness that the Witness is neither.
I seen a theory saying we are nezarec 😭🔥 Destiny started and we thought it was about fallen, hive, hive gods right? Since the newest edition, we can say the entire time, since we been resurrected, we been on a tear to thwart the evil of the world. Right? So In the timeline of things, we been resurrected to fight for the traveler since the start and stop the darkness, we just didn’t know it. then We unlock stasis, which is darkness, we acquire it before the end right? ( Final shape is soon and light fall have been announced) so Nez is a wielder of dark and light, we wield the same. Somehow, eventually we have to join the darkness as a disciple or something ( pyramid ship on Europa might be ours ) , we turn our backs on the witness and save the day… but what I think is this, Nez been there and done that 4 times right? It says 4 Tombs of Nez in the lore. Here’s where MY theory with time travel plays a part. We end up failing to save the world, it goes exactly how it’s suppose to, but the darkness wins this time. Vex time travel for the gardener, Osiris made that sun dial a while back, we’re waitin on Osiris to wake up. All that to say, time travel is a thing and maybe all of our guardians are Nez from different timelines, unlimited parallel universes. But we know for sure lightfall comes, we know we might lose, and then what? You pull a vex move lol you time travel back, and try to right wrongs, but who knows how far they can take this and stretch the story even more. Personally I wouldn’t wanna find out we are Nez until the actual end, I rather lose in light fall and have to time travel back, then you learn more about yourself and the past. Still think Exo stranger and Eris and Us are going to join the darkness, Zavala might not approve of the darkness because it’s a power chase, he chased the traveler and left his family behind and that eats him inside, so he might tell us no to the next darkness sun class, we take it anyway, Zavala doesn’t like us, we help the witness for a while and then switch on him and thus, the routine of Nezarac’s Sin, to abandon the darkness after you been accepted, and save the world when you needed to destroy it.
The biggest problem is that we know Nezarec is a dude, while the player character's gender is unspecified. That alone goes against the theory. That being said I think it's very creative, and would certainly be a cool twist on Bungie's part.
The Witnes is as you have said just another lakey with delusions of grandure like all those who have come before him, his ego will likley be the key to his downfall in Lightfall. I can see him being similar to alot of the Inqusitors from the current Star Wars canon just henchmen seeking the attention and aproval of Vader and Palpatine, in this case its the Witnes trying to gain the Winovers aproval but you get the idea. The trope of a main antagonist being a servent to a bigger threat is nothing new in stories. For example the main villan in the tv show Tron Uprising, General Tessler is just a general to Clu the dictator of the grid and main villan of the movie Tron Legacy. I quite like this trope because it makes the audience think, if this is how bad this guy is then his boss will likley be even worse. Since the Winover will likely be the main villan in the final shape expansion he will defentley be far powerfull than the Witnes can ever hope to be. I can see the post credit scene for Lightfall being the Winover introducing himself with a menacing villan speech
Honestly it's all very interesting even whilst I disagree with your opinion of the witness being not very interesting etc (since I think it's a damn cool characrer and could be very very important and having no interest in him is a bit dissmissive) I do think you're right with nezarec. After watching all the new videos and doing my own research, I realised savathun may have told us about nezarec even before now. During season of the lost savathun had said "The traveller and the light near one foot, your old enemies and the darkness near the other Let me tell you a secret. If you ever want to see wjats been watching you since tje very begning, stand on that line. And look... up." What I find interesting is that it has been watching us this whole time, not interviewing but simply watching kinda like what eris felt in the nezarecs whisper, a presence in the lunar pyramid/some room in it but no one was there. For all we know the one who has been watching us is Nezarec, waiting for the prophecy of his resurrection to play out which I'm assuming will follow with the fall of the traveller as in the Nezarecs sin lore tab it says (and I'm paraphrasing here)" when all seems lost he will call to you" It also claims he will offer us some dark power of some sort Not to mention in the initial reveals for the 3(at the time before final shape) expansions the dialogue over each reveal had significance to the expansion Beyond light: the line between light and dark is so very thin Using Stasis Witch queen: do you know which side you're on? The traveller or humanity? Lightfall: a side should always be taken,even if it's the wrong side Perhaps we side with the man himself Who knows! I truely think that he is either balance or a power outside both as he his the purest light AND the darkest hour
How can we confirm that the Winnower and gardener are not physical beings. I'm feeling a 50/50 in whether they are metaphorical for the evolution of the universe or stand ins for much larger forces at play
What if Nezarec is revived and comes back if the traveller abandons us, then he’ll be our new speaker, in a sense, in the war against the witness. Teaching us about Light and Dark, more so the Dark, and finding a way to get back to the Traveler/Bring back the Traveler.
Murder Inc. is that you? I really wanted Nezarec to be his own entity, independent of the Witness, or The Winnower. A few years back when I first heard he was a “dark god” I thought that was so cool. Now I’m actually very disappointed he’s just a Disciple… but I’m looking forward to seeing if he challenges the Witness, either as our ally or an “enemy of my enemy” type situation
Savathûn also has an Altar of Reflection line claiming that the Witness created the Darkness. It might very well be a total lie, but I think it’s also true that you may be seriously discounting this dude’s importance
It's a completely subjective opinion on my end. The main reason I don't care about him is because the final cutscene of Shadowkeep and the lore book Unveiling prove that there's another character beyond the Witness. Also it seems like the Witness's goal is the exact same as his boss the Winnower's, which isn't that interesting for me. Long story short it just seems like he's a lackey, and with the end of the story only like 2 years away, I don't want to be dealing with lackeys.
In the end, I bet it’s the champions of the darkness and light. It will be us (the guardian) vs. Nezarec (or the witness). Because so far without us, the tower and others would’ve been doomed a long time ago, according at least to the Dark Future lore book. But recalling the Corridors of Time, we saw our grave. And their is still the missing symbol in the end for the Witness’s story wall.
That was intentional though! I mean if we were truly dead why wasn't our body shown? Personally feel at that point the traveller sent us somewhere important that will be an integral part of us finally using the full powers of the light to fight the darkness.
There's a lot to unpack here but your videos are insightful and have great presentation, in short they're great and I'm looking forward to more! Edit: The Winnower was described by Mara to be a neutral force so I wonder if the Witness isn't just a fanatic. Infact I recall Mara saying the Witness was a being who wears Darkness like a cloak giving it a wicked shape. Whoever this Witness is his ideals don't seem to line up with the Winnower. I'm curious about Nezarac's relationship with the Gardener and the Winnower.
@@bengamin24xx3 they're really not, the way they address the player and speak in different pronouns "we" and "i" show there is a difference, English language student here. Not to mention even savathun says they're different!
Spoiler: Nezarec was a once the witness disciple and his tomb lies in the lunar pyramid. It was discovered by the Fallen a long time ago and they took his power and somehow it was past down to Mithrax who we learned became evil for a bit due to the corruption. All this came from info from Eramis herself.
I viewed him like an oryx in a way, before we knew anything about them, just another vessel of the darkness that we will cast aside. What shape the gardener or winnower will take us up for imagining.
I have been following your vid’s on and off for about 6 months now, and I have to say that I always look out for your theories in game. Do you think this line of dialogue I found could relate to this theory? ua-cam.com/video/2nE0qBdbEjM/v-deo.html
100%. Even something like the artifact we used to make the glaive would count as Pyramid technology being used against the Witness. As for the actual ships, I think that would depend on who really controls them. If the Witness remote controls them all, then I don't think we can use them. If the race controls them, then we have a chance.
Now I will tell you my personal subjective opinion, I believe that Nezarec will in any case kill the entire gang of the Witness and himself, Nezarek, older than the Witness, this time, secondly, he is closer to darkness, his power to death had no limits, no , and from the Witness there is no danger of unlimited power, he has a limit, a limit established by the Reaper, Darkness, at least I don’t see or feel it.
I know who the witness is. Spoiler. As Savathun in her last store in Reflections she shows 2 people. Ikora Ray, and Osiris. Wich one do you think it is?
I don’t think we understand the witness. I think he wants to destroy both light and darkness. That is the final shape. No gardener no winnower. Just the universe
I think about this video a lot. I think the core of it was based in fact: all evidence pointed to Nez not being a compatible disciple of the Witness, and at the same time it was revealed that there were dissenters within the Pyramid Race. That being said. A year or so after this video I'd find out about D3 being cancelled, and most likely Nez's original story going with it. The reality I've come to accept is that Destiny as a world was really rebooted with Shadowkeep, and as much as the story has been decent, there's definitely been some casualties imo.
Personally I am still of the opinion that the Gardener and Winnower are not actual beings, just personified forces of the universe from a story that is mentioned many times to be metaphorical. Neither of them have a will or ideology, and saying otherwise is like saying it is the will of Gravity that things move closer together. Technically it makes sense, but it's not a conscious action of an actual being, just a way the universe works.
We'll see :0)
Absolutely the case
I think about this a lot and I completely agree. The winnower seems to be the force that reduces possibilities, like how an atom will collapse its’ wave functions upon observation until there is only one space in the universe that atom could be and that’s the atom we see. The gardener seems to increase possibilities. But they’re two sides of the same coin in this sense, if only the gardener existed every micrometer of space everywhere in the universe would be occupied by all possible things that could be there at once, everything everywhere all at once, which really means there is nothing because there is no difference between anything. If only the winnower existed there would only be the ‘final shape’, the only thing that can exist because it inherently decreases the possibility of anything else existing.
When they interact in a balanced way the universe truly becomes beautiful, evolution is essentially these two forces interacting. The gardener creating mutations and new variations on existing forms, while the winnower causes those that can not sustain there own existence to die, leaving enough resources for those left behind to flourish and continue to diversify into new, more complex and interesting organisms. Life itself is the balance of light and dark in the universe of destiny. In my opinion anyway.
Agreed
Also the glaives are intrinsically linked to the darkness in particular nezerecs whisper seems like it was a gift to commemorate his upgrade to disciple. But when you read the Lore tab of the glaive he left it abandoned. Why would he do that. That's his sin. The witness wants no more life no more death which would equal no more pain. I believe nezerec is like us. As a guardian we are capable of using both light and dark. Nezerec is both the brightest light and the darkest hour. The wording is key. Light is a physical construct while hour is a measurement of time. Time is not a physical construct it is ... Formless. Sorry I'm being edgy but I'm hyped about this and have been thinking about it a lot. I only wish Nezerecs whisper was void so I could truly use it with the helmet
Also consider the possibility that nezerec is an ancient human. You said before yourself that the pyramid contains some semblance of humanity in regards to the tablets on the pyramid what if Nezerec was an ancient light bearer. One that every time the witness comes to Bear to fight he is resurrected by his ghost to fight. I know it's a long shot but consider this his glaive fits human hands and it has since Eris was the first to find it.
We know from Savvie that they were gifted the Light, and Nezarec's exotic is Void. I wouldn't surprised if he had both the Light and the Darkness at his disposal.
@@Venextron Even with a Glaive your theory over all is a long reach.
There already is a formless "Race" that exists in Desiny Lore, what ever "The Nine" are.
Frankly, I think you like many others are taking thingsblike the story of the Gardener and the Winnower too literally.
You need to remember that these stories often come from unreliable narrators or are tales of entities older than the Universe itself.
To think that any tale from that long ago would be so literal as to depict two individual beings of opposed absolutes is beyond far fetched.
So we need to consider what is plausibly litral and what is more likely metaphor or symbolism for something else.
The conflict between Light and Dark is fairly evident, however have you considered the conflict wasn't originally about a literal war between the two?
Or what the Final Shape would even be removed from the simplistic defnitions of the sword logic, like what if you applied Sword Logic to a different scale?
Given the Formless nature of the race whom supposedly built and operate the Dorito Ships, what race built/operates the Traveler?
More importantly, if they are of a different race then how would such a conflict have occured??
Or could it be that they are of the same formless race as one another.
Perhaps they each had fundamentally different views on how to interact with our material universe of form and that conflict spilled out into our universe, like the Gardener and Winnower wrestling one another in their garden allegedly did.
The Traveller's side wanting this universe to continue expanding the void between it's planets and masses.
To allow the endless possibilities of new Solar life to bloom and to not be prematurely snuffed out
Where the positive Arc charge of active life thriving and striving to continue onward.
Where as the Witness's side is consigned to the decline of life from Corruption, Poisons & Decay.
The inevitable heat death of the universe where all is frozen in Stasis.
Only to become a memory, Resonant within the once active total mass crushing in on itself. A memory of when it were once vastly seperated.
This Final Shape of all things, before the Universe born anew in spectacular a Solar blaze. Only to end up here again, and again, and again.
@@soulsurvivor8293 we already know what the Nine are
They made the glaive arc for the same reason hollow denial is void, the void glaive/solar (legendary)trace already exists
You made a great point in calling the Witness a dark speaker. I never even considered that! Great video
god I hope that part of what the witness chose to forget was that nezarec was their king or at least one of them. They did Nezarec so dirty in RoN- he HAS to come back
lmao I can't stop thinking about how nezarec might be sekhmet. Maybe it was Nezarec's choice (as king of the precursors) to unite the light and dark above their homeworld but the consensus exiled nezarec after his actions caused the traveler to abandon them
Glad i am not the only one who sees the witness as the darkness version of a speaker and not the actual big bad.
We are few in number Morgoth :0).
my theory is that nezarec might have been witness disciple , he rebeld , that was his sin , and thats why his glave was abandonned, he used to be the owner of the lunar pyramid , and he created the nightmares , it would be fitting for him since thier puropse is to cause pain and he was propably killed by witness beacuse in some drifter lore we can read that drifter said he was in a tomb of nezarec
He was cooking and he didn't even know it 🔥🔥🔥
Only thing is the Witness has been stated to be the Voice in the Dark, which was said to be the same one that spoke to us in the Black Garden, which was the same one that wrote Unveiling and explicitly stated that the Winnower/Gardener names and concept were analogies about their purposes before they entered the "game" themselves and became more than just math (Traveler and Witness apparently). Light and Dark are neutral physics of the universe created by the two, but they've become personal agents that wield them as far as we know now. The Witness is just the one that controls Darkness and makes it "Dark", raising Disciples like Rhulk, who in turn groomed Savathun and apparently Nezarec to become Disciples, though Savathun denied them.
Another thing is that we now know Egregore can act as, in a way, a nervous system for the Witness. A way to spread and feel out the universe. The Pyramids as well all connect to one point, sharing the same frequency, seemingly to the place the Witness is chilling at or the Witness itself.
I do like the video tho, actually pretty cool if you turn out to be right
Thanks!
How do you know the Witness wrote Unveiling?
@@Venextron It's heavily implied by the Europa Pyramid mission in TWQ campaign. Eris states:
"In her journeys beyond the heliopause, Queen Mara Sov encountered the entity that commands the Pyramids. She said its mind spoke louder than any other she has ever heard. A cacophony of thought.
Perhaps those voices steer these ships. One of those voices invited you to this Pyramid once before."
This same voice spoke to us in the Moon Pyramid when it took over our Ghost and subsequently made its appearance as a reflection of us, something it stated it wouldn't be able to do in Unveiling unless it emulated our minds first, meaning whatever has been speaking to us had to do so, and that being has now been named as the Witness.
So yeah, Unveiling was a whole lot of metaphor, but the Voice in the Dark, the Entity, the Winnower, etc etc are all just the many voices of the Witness, the being that controls its "knives" the Pyramids, raises Disciples and created the Sword Logic.
Now Bungie could throw a curve ball and make the Winnower a real thing instead of metaphor if they wanted to, and retcon what Mara, Eris and others said, but I don't think they will when Lightfall and the Final Shape are right around the corner.
Like you said, the witness isn't the darkness, the witness is the equivalent of the pilot of the traveler imo. We don't know who controls the Traveler. Nezarec is a disciple, like Calus, Rhulk, etc. He will control a pyramid at some point. Your take is definitely interesting though.
id rather think used to be a disciple but he rebeled against the witness thats his sin thats, why his glaive is abandoned in the lunar piramid . I also think lunar piramid used to be his since the nightmares are created to cause pain so it would be fitting for him create them as defense system for the pyramid.
Nezarec and Xivu Arath share a horned design motif.
Well, this guy has a love for Nezarec and a hate for big head with smoke man Witness
It all comes down to what the characters represent.
@@Venextron gigachad Nezarec VS beta male Witness
I dont think that nezarek our next enemy is, i think he give us the next darkness focus.
Nezerec was written about by pre-Golden Age humanity, not the pyramid race. The description Nezerec’s Whisper is “‘Rise, Disciple, and bear this gift with pride.’ -Rhulk, Disciple of The Witness”. The lore tab then says that Eris finds that glaive in the Lunar pyramid, insinuating that Nezerec was in fact a disciple of the Witness.
We actually don't know where Eris found the glaive, as she was teleported from the Pyramid to another location. It could be another chamber in the same ship, but we just don't know.
As for Nezarec being a Disciple, the information that we do have about Nezarec just doesn't make sense if you put it in the context of him being a Disciple. It will probably be clarified later on, but at the moment I just can't understand it at all.
According to two of Savathuns lines, the Witness was either the creator of the Darkness, or was created by it to serve it. These lines contradict one another, making us believe that only one is a lie and the other is a truth.
However, I think Savathun might be lying to us about both. It’s actually really likely that the Witness is both not the creator of the Darkness, nor it’s creation/servant. To understand why and how, we must understand the idea behind the Darkness and the Light.
In order for someone to receive the light, the Traveler must give it to you, whilst the power of the dark must be taken from the Pyramids. Therefore, if the Witness is neither creator or creation of the Darkness, then it’s very likely that the Witness is just a being that took most of the power of the Darkness for themselves.
The Darkness serves the Witness, not as the Witnesses creation, but rather as a power that is controlled by them. And, the Witness serves the Darkness back by using its power to hunt down the light and fulfill its final design. What we are likely up against is a entity possessing the power of the Darkness, not simply the creator or servant of it.
As possible as it would be for the Witness to be the Pyramids creator, or for the Witness to simply be a mouthpiece created by the Darkness itself, it’s also very likely that due to the laws and rules of the Darkness that the Witness is neither.
Whereas we are servants of the traveler and rely on it, the darkness relies on people using it to remain in existence vs the opposite with the light.
@@devinthierault the light strengthens those around them, while the darkness empowers one at the expense of all else.
I seen a theory saying we are nezarec 😭🔥 Destiny started and we thought it was about fallen, hive, hive gods right? Since the newest edition, we can say the entire time, since we been resurrected, we been on a tear to thwart the evil of the world. Right? So In the timeline of things, we been resurrected to fight for the traveler since the start and stop the darkness, we just didn’t know it. then We unlock stasis, which is darkness, we acquire it before the end right? ( Final shape is soon and light fall have been announced) so Nez is a wielder of dark and light, we wield the same. Somehow, eventually we have to join the darkness as a disciple or something ( pyramid ship on Europa might be ours ) , we turn our backs on the witness and save the day… but what I think is this, Nez been there and done that 4 times right? It says 4 Tombs of Nez in the lore. Here’s where MY theory with time travel plays a part. We end up failing to save the world, it goes exactly how it’s suppose to, but the darkness wins this time. Vex time travel for the gardener, Osiris made that sun dial a while back, we’re waitin on Osiris to wake up. All that to say, time travel is a thing and maybe all of our guardians are Nez from different timelines, unlimited parallel universes. But we know for sure lightfall comes, we know we might lose, and then what? You pull a vex move lol you time travel back, and try to right wrongs, but who knows how far they can take this and stretch the story even more. Personally I wouldn’t wanna find out we are Nez until the actual end, I rather lose in light fall and have to time travel back, then you learn more about yourself and the past. Still think Exo stranger and Eris and Us are going to join the darkness, Zavala might not approve of the darkness because it’s a power chase, he chased the traveler and left his family behind and that eats him inside, so he might tell us no to the next darkness sun class, we take it anyway, Zavala doesn’t like us, we help the witness for a while and then switch on him and thus, the routine of Nezarac’s Sin, to abandon the darkness after you been accepted, and save the world when you needed to destroy it.
The biggest problem is that we know Nezarec is a dude, while the player character's gender is unspecified. That alone goes against the theory. That being said I think it's very creative, and would certainly be a cool twist on Bungie's part.
The Witnes is as you have said just another lakey with delusions of grandure like all those who have come before him, his ego will likley be the key to his downfall in Lightfall.
I can see him being similar to alot of the Inqusitors from the current Star Wars canon just henchmen seeking the attention and aproval of Vader and Palpatine, in this case its the Witnes trying to gain the Winovers aproval but you get the idea.
The trope of a main antagonist being a servent to a bigger threat is nothing new in stories. For example the main villan in the tv show Tron Uprising, General Tessler is just a general to Clu the dictator of the grid and main villan of the movie Tron Legacy.
I quite like this trope because it makes the audience think, if this is how bad this guy is then his boss will likley be even worse.
Since the Winover will likely be the main villan in the final shape expansion he will defentley be far powerfull than the Witnes can ever hope to be.
I can see the post credit scene for Lightfall being the Winover introducing himself with a menacing villan speech
You connecting the Disciples to the Inquisitors is genius.
First video of yours I've ever watched, 100% subscribing and looking forward to more of your awesome content!
I'm glad to have you man thank you!
Well, U were right after ur last vid about Nezarec. Byf made a vid talking about him too :)
;0)
I think the witness is an incredibly important character in destiny. I care about him 🥹 and he fascinates me.
Also I think he will live past lightfall
I finally found someone in the Lore community that actually knows what he is talking about
Great video btw
Well from datamined voicelines, we now know that nezarec led the first wave during the collapse, and his pyramid is in fact the lunar pyramid
I always thought the Witness was analogous to the Speaker
That intro had me giggling
It made me giggle too :0)
Honestly it's all very interesting even whilst I disagree with your opinion of the witness being not very interesting etc (since I think it's a damn cool characrer and could be very very important and having no interest in him is a bit dissmissive)
I do think you're right with nezarec.
After watching all the new videos and doing my own research, I realised savathun may have told us about nezarec even before now.
During season of the lost savathun had said
"The traveller and the light near one foot, your old enemies and the darkness near the other
Let me tell you a secret.
If you ever want to see wjats been watching you since tje very begning, stand on that line. And look... up."
What I find interesting is that it has been watching us this whole time, not interviewing but simply watching kinda like what eris felt in the nezarecs whisper, a presence in the lunar pyramid/some room in it but no one was there.
For all we know the one who has been watching us is Nezarec, waiting for the prophecy of his resurrection to play out which I'm assuming will follow with the fall of the traveller as in the
Nezarecs sin lore tab it says (and I'm paraphrasing here)" when all seems lost he will call to you"
It also claims he will offer us some dark power of some sort
Not to mention in the initial reveals for the 3(at the time before final shape) expansions the dialogue over each reveal had significance to the expansion
Beyond light: the line between light and dark is so very thin
Using Stasis
Witch queen: do you know which side you're on?
The traveller or humanity?
Lightfall: a side should always be taken,even if it's the wrong side
Perhaps we side with the man himself
Who knows!
I truely think that he is either balance or a power outside both as he his the purest light AND the darkest hour
How can we confirm that the Winnower and gardener are not physical beings. I'm feeling a 50/50 in whether they are metaphorical for the evolution of the universe or stand ins for much larger forces at play
What if Nezarec is revived and comes back if the traveller abandons us, then he’ll be our new speaker, in a sense, in the war against the witness. Teaching us about Light and Dark, more so the Dark, and finding a way to get back to the Traveler/Bring back the Traveler.
Recently I’ve been the first to watch your videos. I’m quite glad for this honor.
I'm honored to have you!
Murder Inc. is that you?
I really wanted Nezarec to be his own entity, independent of the Witness, or The Winnower. A few years back when I first heard he was a “dark god” I thought that was so cool. Now I’m actually very disappointed he’s just a Disciple… but I’m looking forward to seeing if he challenges the Witness, either as our ally or an “enemy of my enemy” type situation
Savathûn also has an Altar of Reflection line claiming that the Witness created the Darkness. It might very well be a total lie, but I think it’s also true that you may be seriously discounting this dude’s importance
If you ask me, The Darkness is rather The Veil.
It's a completely subjective opinion on my end.
The main reason I don't care about him is because the final cutscene of Shadowkeep and the lore book Unveiling prove that there's another character beyond the Witness. Also it seems like the Witness's goal is the exact same as his boss the Winnower's, which isn't that interesting for me.
Long story short it just seems like he's a lackey, and with the end of the story only like 2 years away, I don't want to be dealing with lackeys.
you eatin good after todays cut scene 💀
Love ur vids. what if ur wrong about the witness?
I would be really sad :0(
In the end, I bet it’s the champions of the darkness and light. It will be us (the guardian) vs. Nezarec (or the witness). Because so far without us, the tower and others would’ve been doomed a long time ago, according at least to the Dark Future lore book. But recalling the Corridors of Time, we saw our grave. And their is still the missing symbol in the end for the Witness’s story wall.
That was intentional though! I mean if we were truly dead why wasn't our body shown? Personally feel at that point the traveller sent us somewhere important that will be an integral part of us finally using the full powers of the light to fight the darkness.
Maybe at the end of lightfall the 2 true masters of the witness and the black fleet the winnower and nezarec
It all depends if their goals align.
This is badass 🙏
Thank you!
There's a lot to unpack here but your videos are insightful and have great presentation, in short they're great and I'm looking forward to more!
Edit: The Winnower was described by Mara to be a neutral force so I wonder if the Witness isn't just a fanatic. Infact I recall Mara saying the Witness was a being who wears Darkness like a cloak giving it a wicked shape. Whoever this Witness is his ideals don't seem to line up with the Winnower. I'm curious about Nezarac's relationship with the Gardener and the Winnower.
Savathun had said he wears it like a cloak
@@crashlads2685 Can you show me where Savathûn said this?
@@abdoul5176 TWQ campaign or Altar of Reflection
The winnower and the witness are the same being the one with many names
@@bengamin24xx3 they're really not, the way they address the player and speak in different pronouns "we" and "i" show there is a difference, English language student here.
Not to mention even savathun says they're different!
Spoiler:
Nezarec was a once the witness disciple and his tomb lies in the lunar pyramid. It was discovered by the Fallen a long time ago and they took his power and somehow it was past down to Mithrax who we learned became evil for a bit due to the corruption. All this came from info from Eramis herself.
I viewed him like an oryx in a way, before we knew anything about them, just another vessel of the darkness that we will cast aside. What shape the gardener or winnower will take us up for imagining.
Technically the witness is a hunter because he has a cape
I'm just very sad that Nezaric's Whisper doesn't synergize with Nezarec's Sin
I have been following your vid’s on and off for about 6 months now, and I have to say that I always look out for your theories in game. Do you think this line of dialogue I found could relate to this theory? ua-cam.com/video/2nE0qBdbEjM/v-deo.html
100%. Even something like the artifact we used to make the glaive would count as Pyramid technology being used against the Witness. As for the actual ships, I think that would depend on who really controls them. If the Witness remote controls them all, then I don't think we can use them. If the race controls them, then we have a chance.
Now I will tell you my personal subjective opinion, I believe that Nezarec will in any case kill the entire gang of the Witness and himself, Nezarek, older than the Witness, this time, secondly, he is closer to darkness, his power to death had no limits, no , and from the Witness there is no danger of unlimited power, he has a limit, a limit established by the Reaper, Darkness, at least I don’t see or feel it.
I know who the witness is. Spoiler. As Savathun in her last store in Reflections she shows 2 people. Ikora Ray, and Osiris.
Wich one do you think it is?
The idea that it was either of them honestly never crossed my mind.
Wait... ikora is bald...
The Witness is bald...
@@RoachDoggJR.- don't forget Zavala, both Witness and him also share pale skin.
I don’t think we understand the witness. I think he wants to destroy both light and darkness. That is the final shape. No gardener no winnower. Just the universe
Ill be back 03:)
Why do you think the Winnower will appear? Is it even exist? We know that the Witness was behind the Darkness all along.
Link the vid bruh lol
This aged not so nicely. Wished the story would have actuyally turn out like this
I think about this video a lot. I think the core of it was based in fact: all evidence pointed to Nez not being a compatible disciple of the Witness, and at the same time it was revealed that there were dissenters within the Pyramid Race.
That being said. A year or so after this video I'd find out about D3 being cancelled, and most likely Nez's original story going with it. The reality I've come to accept is that Destiny as a world was really rebooted with Shadowkeep, and as much as the story has been decent, there's definitely been some casualties imo.
Nazarec is the new Osiris
but better