Sig got these contracts because they hired Daniel Horner away from the army marksmanship unit (AMU). The AMU tests and evaluates every weapon for the army, so now you have a guy that knows the language needed in these contracts and he was their golden child and now he’s sending products to his buddies. Them getting Lena miculek helped too but having Horner was like Nike having Michael Jordan
Also, Colt and FN sends seconds (in theory FUNCTIONAL seconds) of parts to DD BCM... PA,,, etc etc for their builds .. like your lower parts kit right now in your DD may be out of spec but not enough to effect function.,,, crazy huh
Sig Sauer undercut Glock by like 100 million dollars on the bid, THAT is why they got the contract. These days, "Military Grade" means it was built by the low bidder... I should know... I've been building shit for the military for 35 years. They used to throw out the high and low bid and select based on "best value" and each bidder's experience, resume, and reputation. On some contracts you had to meet strict qualification criteria. Now, it's all low bidder driven. They put out a spec and whoever can meet that spec for the lowest price gets the contract. Contractors will submit bids for cost plus 2% and then beat up their suppliers and shippers to squeeze profits out of the contract. In turn, everyone is trying to buy the cheapest components and use the cheapest manufacturing methods. They will get as much done by the cheapest labor force they can... everybody is cutting corners.
@@navyman8903gen scott miller is the reason why sig keeps getting military contracts. Also American companies getting huge contracts is a good thing for America,increases our GDP which is required in a growing economy. The definition of “Military Grade” is still the same. Hence the poo poo m18.
I'm sure the video is still processing, strap in, it's going to be a bumpy ride. Not sure if you will see ads or not, but I did use other UA-camr's content, which is in the resource section. Please watch their stuff as well for full context.
While I would love a P229, I'd NEVER bet my life on ANY SIG SAUER product. Especially, their polymer guns. They have failed and do not inspire confidence. Thanks for ALL your great input and videos!!! HK and Beretta forever!!!
I have a 227 tacops that has optimized trigger. Grey guns ELH trigger, SIG armorer's improved hammer strut, Amory craft smooth action kit. Had the slide milled for an RDS. With obsidian 45 can. The thing is a laser beam. If your ever in Michigan it is a treat to shoot.
Freaking FINNALLY someone speaks the truth... It's like guys in the gun community are afraid to tell the truth about modern SIG. Super innovative but their engineering isn't complete and their QC is so unbelievably abhorrent. You hit so many points, this video is perfect.
when I was the RSO for my MP unit and we were Qualifying with the M17, I had a solider raise his had because his empty casing wouldn't extract. When looking at it closer it turns out the entire extractor ripped off. It was a brand new hand gun.
Since the 320 came out and got that contract, all of these "Sig" people fell out of the ether. Working at a gunstore, people come in and say "I'm a Sig guy" all the time. "I love my 320." When I tell them I'm not a fan of polymer Sigs, they ask why I'm not a Sig guy. I constantly have to point out to them that I'm a huge fan of the metal P series. They look lost when I say that, and THAT lets me know a few things. Thank you for calling it out as a fellow Navy man and ACTUAL shooter of his guns!
100% I've been saying for a while now that their long guns are grossly overpriced. There's literally no reason to buy a 3k-5k spear because there is nothing it's capable of that a well built AR15 isn't.
Well, what does a Geissele Super Duty cost? An LMT Monolithic CQB piston cost? HK223/556? LWRCi’s equivalent? Barrett’s piston AR? None cost only $1500.
Sig innovates at such a rate that their qc can’t keep up. The anti Glock strategy basically. Sig actually reminds me a lot of keltec in the sense that keltec is also known for innovation and foregoing qc in favor of treating customers like beta testers.
229, M11-a1, and SP2022. Don't care for anything else from them if it isn't hammer fired. Thanks for the content homie, hope your summer is going well.
Navyman covered a lot of ground but even still this was only concerning service pistols. The model 250, 2022, Cross, P238 and P938 all have horrendous crippling issues as well.
I feel that SIG now that they have Govt contracts, is like how Colt used to be in the early 2000's. Not talking about the QC and the refinement part, more so on the Air headedness and lack of customer service/satisfaction.
My dads p220 SAS shot its magazine release through the metal frame into the snow one day and they sent him a light-railed replacement frame since, as you pointed out, they discontinue everything w the parts overnight. They even made him pay for shipping.
I am in the process of RMAing a Romeo4T and an experience that started off great has nosedived off a cliff. I picked up a 4T secondhand and needed to switch to a low mount. Tale as old as time, last screw stripped, but Sig CS said that it was covered under warranty, which is great! Packed it up and sent it off, forgot about it. Red dot came back, the gunsmith note said: "Mounting screw not stripped, just missing 3. Replaced screws and returned to customer." Well, at least I'm getting it back in the condition I received it in.
Our tremendous business / financial "news" sector would have us believe that corporate raiding and junk finance scams died with Milken, Boesky and Icahn being show-trialed and "punished." The truth is that vampires are everywhere, and our "news" never focuses on their predations.
They went from a small 500 person company to a 1billion dollar, 2,000 person company in just 5 years under cohen. They have added .5million dollar contracts with the us army now and the ngsw contract etc etc. How is that down hill?
A fitting world with Raytheon's man in Austin, just like Bechtel's man G Schultz in other admins, Hallburton/KBR via Wyoming Dick, hey if you can't work the revolving door why even take a job in/with fedgov? Perky Johnson's Econ Sicario book was supposed to be fringe whacko stuff!
Of all the sigs I own, the only one I ever had an issue with was my P229R when I first acquired it in 2012. There was deformity with the barrel that wouldn’t allow me to put the gun back together after field stripping. Sent it back to Sig and got it back in 10 days with the issue fixed.
I just stay away from anything SIG USA. Edit: For the 5000 rounds recoil spring thing I'm sure that's a "mechanism" they created to avoid performing warranty work.
Being an assembler for SIG, most metallic framed guns, 210, 226 legion, 1911, etc. There is some form of pride when building a gun, then come the PR staff who only look for numbers built within a certain period of time, and say "move quicker" basically. It's really quantity over quality at this point.
I’ve had a ~2019 p365 and a 2023 p320. I’ve ran bout 6-700 rounds on the p365 and about 1000 on the p320. I know, not extreme round counts, range trips are roughly monthly. The only reason I got a 320 was for a certain chassis from Utah with a built in manual safety. I’m happy with both for a few reasons. That said, your criticisms are absolutely 100% valid. I’m even somewhat iffy modern 226’s at this point, having shot a West German 226 a buddy of mine owns. And don’t get me started on the outrageous long gun prices. I agree with the optics points as well. I trust primary arms and vortex more for us poors. Thanks for sharing again dude.
I admit trading in my CZ75-BD for the p320 - for training familiarity, when our branch adopted the M18. I even further drank the coolaid and replaced my carry pistol with a 365XL. I had heard rumors of all the points you’ve made - but in my market research there must have been an overwhelming majority of counter propaganda. I feel as if I’ve been had. Thank you for your honesty; it’s giving me a lot to consider in my sidearms choices
It’s good to see you back. You absolutely nailed it with this video. I was a Gen 1 MCX Beta tester in 2016; recoil assembly disassembled itself during my first shots. Never again. Send In Gun
Your timing on this video yesterday, in light of the P320 video circulating today of the officer’s pistol having an un-commanded discharge while in the duty holster, was epically clairvoyant. Well done bro. That said, see Yankee Marshal’s analysis of the video footage.
I have a triple serial 229 in 357, it's awesome. I bought it a few years ago to add another 229 to inventory, and the guy asked me why i drove 3 hours to get it. For one, he only asked me for $400. Two, it was pristine. I bought the "Pro-Cut" slide to try a pistol optic and to have a 9mm option. Don't care for optics, but it runs great.
Thank you for the content as always. I was issued a sig229 for the last 3 years being attached to ncis (just switched over to the Glock 19) and it ran flawless with thousands of rounds through it. Throughout the last three years I still had to qual with the m18 and go to courses using the m17. I’ve had issues with both and seen problems on the fire line with other shooters. I’m not surprised the military chose it but just disappointed…
The M18s are garbage for sure. The metal framed SIGs I haven't had issues with, even the clapped out M11s we were running before were better. A 226 or 229 is fine with my, I'm obviously biased toward the 226. But anything else right now, especially their new generation guns are an absolute mess.
The German stuff was solid. After the US factory started running more and more and German less, quality control dropped drastically. They started trying to push out too many offerings too quickly and subsequently the end user suffers. After I retired from LE, I managed a gun shop and we had Romeo optics not work out of the box, most of the rental Sig’s would frequently have broken parts, mags rusting, etc. The 320 issues came and they offered a “voluntary upgrade” which should have been mandatory. I spoke with Rick at Lazy Wolf about this topic and he was saying a bunch of new reports of firing out of battery, along with other problems. Ultimately they have their fans who swear by them, but HK, Glock etc have not had anywhere near the amount of problems that Sig does. I tried to like my 320 but just didn’t trust it. Felt cheap. I loved my old 220, 229. Those were great! I think Sig needs to slow it down and not try to be the first out, rather strive to be the best out.
The 22x guns are great right now. But any of the new guns are cheap, unsafe and break with boring reliability. Every time I chamber an M18 for duty, I'm nervous it's going to go off.
The sig factory in NH opened in 1990, the first gun they produced was the P229 and then it was only the slide assemblies….the frames were still imported from Germany…..those guns were and are awesome…easily as good as their (west) German products……the Sigarms era (1985-2007) was the best era for sig quality and reputation-wise. They didn’t cut corners, just made and delivered quality product…..then ron cohen got hired to “save” the company and the era of the p226 with 200 slide colors began…..as did the slowly accelerating deterioration of the company’s QC when cohen decided his company needed to stick its fingers in too many pies…..while we can thank sig for the proliferation of the micro nine and the modular handgun among others, we can also condemn them for their halfassed designs and pisspoor QC
Great video! Just goes to show how powerful marketing is. People still buying their polymer pistols as CCW defensive pistols is slightly terrifying to me after all the problems they've had. It'll probably take a fatal accident before they do anything serious about their design problems.
Was at the range last weekend. Some guys 229 had a misfire. It was his duty gun. If that was me I would throw the gun in the safe and never carry it for duty or ccw again. I knew their striker fired guns were problems. Had no idea about their hammer fired guns which used to be legendary.
Can confirm as a former shop worker and armorer. We had 3 p226 over 3 years as our rental guns completely warp their frames due to the recoil spring failing. This was well under 10k rounds, same failure on each gun. It was to the point where you couldn't cock the pistol. Note that we had CZ 75, Beretta M9, and numerous 1911s all metal frame that did not have the same failures. Although we had Beretta barrels break. Anyway, every year our SIG p938, and P238 never survived the year as a rental gun either. Never had a single stock Glock fail. Never an HK fail. Never a CZ fail. But always SIG and Rugers failed. They refused to honor our warranty and were a pain in the ass when we had to recall our P320s and SIG rifles.
I've got pics of the Sig barrel retention mechanism for the Spear cracking. The metal pieces with the screws going into them, breaking on the section they hold the barrel on. AS far as I can tell it is the barrel moving relative to the receiver, not hte handguard moving relative to the barrel with the bendy Sigs. This is because one of the testers put a laser on the RECEIVER and the barrel shifted relative to it with one of those boresight lasers. The handguard would be irrelevant to that, the barrel had to mvoe relative to the receiver. So it's the barrel retention mechanism that is too weak in the horizontal plane to keep the barrel centered.
Completely agree. There are some with rail issues as well. I'm more concerned with the barrel like you're getting at. But there are some with rails having problems.
SIG’s “investment castings” are actually metal-injection molded parts done by INDO-MIM in India. SIG outsourced critical parts of their firearms to save money. Trigger parts, firing pins, strikers, extractors, basically all the parts that we see breaking all over the place.
It's truly a sad state of affairs. I love mine and it always performs. I have over 4k through it. I might be over 5k at this point. It's been nothing but amazing.
At the time, I didn't feel Sig winning MHS was a big deal, but looking back now that we've seen the M17/M18/P320, Glock losing was a big deal. They really should've won, and even the M9 variant would've been ok since it addressed the largest problems.
@@HaydenHKDA military M9 that has been beat to death and not maintained in decades is indeed less reliable than the Sig or Glock, but a properly maintained one is just as reliable.
@joshuabracke5775 even that military M9 comes right back to life the moment you put new springs and locking block into it. Can't say the same for the Sig.
The 19x was bullet proof for me and I bought it when they first released when everyone was ragging on them for a stupid design and a year later everyone changed their mind ,
I have a sig p320 axg pro metal frame have around 2000 plus no issues with the gun shots fantastic I was pretty bummed to see what their charging for the spear
I miss my old 226 TacOps; I had a lemon in my legion 226, I didn’t have it for long. I wish I bought a 227 TacOps. Glad to see you back, I was really getting bored watching MK12 videos lol
Lol. I'll send you an email here later today to tell you what in up to. I also wish I bought a P227 and some older 226s. Also another Legion when I did, because apparently they changed those up too.....
You're on fire in this video. I agree with 99% of what you said. I disagree that Sig doesn't have any decent optics to offer, though. The Romeo 5 I bought for my first AR has survived bumps, drops and falls and stayed zero. Although, I did swap the janky mount it came with for an ADM mount. Also, their Romeo 4XT-PRO and Romeo 8T are very solid optics. I have a P365XL that I've put over 1K rounds through (mostly 124gr S&B and 124gr Speer Gold Dots) and haven't had any problems with it. However, I did have one instance where it spit a casing back directly into my face. None of my other pistols have ever done that. I'm in the 603, and I wish I could be proud of local gun makers, but the truth is I'm never buying a Sig gun ever again.
I got a P229 Elite recently and that's been great so far. I'm generally more interested in DA/SA pistols and DA revolvers than striker fired these days so I'll probably skip over the 320.
Thanks for the conversation. I'm an admitted Sig fan but I am not stubborn enough to ignore problems. I own a few P320's. They've been good guns so far. But, believe me when I say that I have my concerns. I will keep looking for more information regarding their apparent qc issues. I do appreciate your insight.
Thanks for watching and keeping an open mind. I genuinely appreciate it, believe me, this take on SIG in this video is not what I wanted to have. I genuinely love my experience with my Legion, other 226s and 229s I've shot. My Legion is my favorite 9mm.
@navyman8903 yea I have a gen 1 1/2 MCX that runs like a champ. But only after the initial improvements. I wish I didn't have to have any second thoughts.
Purchased 2 sig 365's. The spectre comp and the Tacops XMacro. No problems with either gun after hundreds of rounds through each. I do have to admit that I also purchased 2 Icarus Lowers for these guns which for those that are unaware are aluminum and extremely well made. They actually give these pistols the feel of the original metal series of sig handguns which I was looking for.
Where i live (CT) we had two local PDs in the past year running P320s in safariland level 3 holsters go off randomly without any outside manipulation. One just happened a few days ago in Montville. But of course, the people swingin from Sigs 🥜 say the gun is perfectly fine and its “user error.” Funny my Glocks or 1911s or CZs or H&Ks never decided to randomly send one while holstered.
I absolutely can not believe some of the excuses I've heard about why they went off. How it was the holster or some debris in the holster. Absolute nonsense.
@@navyman8903 you and me both brother. If you watch the absolute garbage video yankee marshal put out today it will make you want to appendix carry a P320, chambered. Dozens of lawsuits….LEOs, civilians, all having the pistol go off in different types of holsters….but nope, gun is fine, Sig is amazing.
This series is great and you definitely put companies in their place when needed. Would love for you to do a video like this on primary arms and their optics.
The first handgun I ever fired was SIG P226 that I rented at the range. Fell in love with it immediately. The old SIGs are amazing, the new ones not so much. I wouldn't buy a P320 or P365 if my life depended on it. I'm still wondering why the Army adopted the SIG Spear, feels like they just went backwards. Even the SIG Spear LT has had issues. I feel like the company is more hype now than anything else.
Completely agree man. I think once the plants closed in Europe and the US took over everything, they started to ruin good things. The P22x series guns they couldn't mess up if they tried, and they won't redesign it, which is what makes it safe. If they do a "redesign" run the opposite direction.
@@navyman8903 Yeah I think they were forced to close down their plants in Europe because they got tired of dealing with the EU and their firearms export laws. I just don't understand where the quality went and why the military keeps awarding them contracts. It's sad to see what SIG has become.
You are spot on. The 226 is the only decent gun. I have said it for about five years or so. Sig is a trash company ever since they closed shop in Europe. For a semi auto duty level pistol only Glock, HK and Beretta are good. For rifles stick to HK, FN, DD, KAC, LMT, LWRCI and Geissele. What makes a company great isn’t if something breaks or not, because with enough use everything breaks/wears out, it is the customer service and support afterwards.
NH New Englander here. Not new to firearms but new to concealed carry. Is Berretta GTG? I have a Glock 34 and like it enough but was thinking something double action for carry
Sig is a perfect example of what to do, and what NOT to do as a gun company. They’re dipping their toes in a lot of areas like optics, ammo, silencers, etc. Which is all well and good. But as you said, multiple iterations of products get discontinued because there’s an “update”, which inevitably leads to more issues, and another update. And inevitably leads to another discontinued product. That isn’t a company that I’d want to rely on in any capacity, be it civilian, law enforcement, or military. Which is truly a shame, because the company made some truly great firearm. The whole P22X series obvious being their flagship.
I have shot the classic SIGs for really long time, and I have used a ton of the double braid spring. The 9mms NEVER needed a change. The .40s and .45 will unwind in short order. They now use flat springs, and those do seem to be better. I also exclusively use the Grayguns "Fat Rod", and that's been pretty nice. I call it the fart rod, but thats because it's funny to say.
The classic SIG pistols are really an entirely different animal from the newer P320 and such. Even the ones with Exeter slides. There were some early chokes with the long extractor design on them, but I have one of 2021 vintage and it's stone cold reliable.
I have two Sigs, a P320 XTEN 10mm and a P322 that I won as a prize for a raffle drawing. I got the XTEN because I really like the trigger feel on it and I was able to shoot it the best out of all the 10mms I tried (I also shot a Glock 20 and a Springfield XDM Elite). It also tames a lot of the recoil of the 10mm cartridge. I've put 480 rounds through it so far and it has been excellent. It had two magazine feeding issues in the first 50 or so rounds, but I've heard the magazines can be finicky until they get broken in. The slide was also difficult to rack in the beginning with the full 15 rounds, but has eased up since. The P322 on the other hand has an issue with leading the barrel if you use unjacketed .22LR ammo. Especially the cheap stuff like Winchester plinking ammo. My leading issues weren't as bad as some of the others I've seen as only the distal most half inch of the barrel had lead on it after 150 rounds of Remington Thunderbolt. That is still pretty unacceptable. It took 30 minutes of a solvent soaked patch and at least 50 passes with a brass barrel brush to clean it off. I've only run copper plated ammo from CCI since and that seems to work well. The double stack 20 round mags also have fed pretty reliably and I haven't had any issues with the slide release like some other people had with early models.
This is the one I've been waiting for. Thanks for bringing up Sog dropping products at the drop of a hat. Say what you may about Glock, but they stand by their product and actually support older models still. Sig should have called the vOlUnTaRy UpGrAdE program for the 320 should have been a recall. They would see alot less vitriol if they owned up to their mistakes.
Completely agree and Glock is getting much more attention and business from me. Which is sad to say considering how much I love my P226 and how well I shoot it. But I can't support how they're doing business either.
@@navyman8903 That is a major disappointment. Especially since Sig supplies the branches with the 320 and the new M5 (which I doubt will be standard issue long term, but I digress) the fact that service members are getting subpar, shit tier products made by the lowest bidder is par for the course. I just wish that the government had its priorities in check with how it spends our money
@@navyman8903 It seems to be a 21st Century, UK+US-led, attitude shift toward customers. "Beta testing suckers at best" or "a fool and his money are soon parted," take your pick. It's not limited to firearms and I bet you have noticed, it's not limited to business spheres either. As Billy Spear-shaker once said in a different era, "something is rotten in Denmark."
Oh hell yeah I love ripping on SiG. Their handling of the P320 drop safety was so bad. Voluntary upgrade? They should’ve recalled it immediately. The fact that there’s still 320s in circulation that haven’t had the “upgrade” is why I’ll never trust those guns
I really love these “As a brand” videos. I would love to see you touch on Colt someday, what with them just being absolutely brain dead when it comes to business decisions.
After seeing the damage from the pics and videos, I will be on the lookout for any issues with my P320s. I personally own the original P320 X-Carry and a Gen 2 P320 X-VTAC, with about 250 rounds run through both. No issues thus far, but I will be vigilant and send any updates to you if something happens. As a side note, I'll be getting a MK25 in the near future
For me the constant changes they made to the P320 and the tolerance differences that made parts compatibility not a thing cannot be ignored. I have had every single polymer SIG over the years. The P320 has been the worst of the bunch, unfortunately. How do you sell slides and barrels for the same gun that are incompatible?
@@navyman8903 I’m one of those guys who’s had generally positive experiences with my SIG products. But, that doesn’t mean I’m going to excuse their failures. The brand loyalty cultists are hilarious. We should never constantly have to be concerned that if we deploy a SIG in self-defense, or if it’s just chilling in a holster that it’s going to malfunction catastrophically. I have been tempted to thin out my SIGs in recent years in favor of something else.
Ron Cohen is what happened to Sig. He rolled in to Kimber in the early 2000s and just absolutely trashed their product and cut corners on building those guns. The company never recovered from that. Tell someone you own and Kimber and they'll laugh at you. Those were good 1911s for the money before he got there. My 320 just dumped itself at 3200 rnds. My M&P2.0 9c is still going strong on 7800 rnds. My gen 5 19 didn't start dumping itself until 9100 rnds.
You’re right on the money, as usual. The only Sig I care to own anymore is a P226 Legion. I just wish I could find an SAO with the original crappy PVD finish. Hate the newer green colored cerakoted Legions. Never did like their striker fired guns. If I want a polymer gun I’ll take a Glock or HK. Almost bought one of their 1911s on a couple of different occasions but reviews I’ve seen caused me to hold off. Loved the cat cameo with the tail seemingly pointing at your P226 as if to say “This is the only Sig worth owning!” Haha! Good stuff!
Question: You guys think these issues are primarily faced by the civilian and LE market? Or do you think the military has been affected by this as well? I'm pretty concerned by the fact that SIG is now the preeminent small arms contractor for the US military (XM7 rifle and M17/18 pistols) given the QC and reliability issues we're seeing. I never had any issues with any of the M16s I had from my time in the service, not even the crusty, old A2 I had in basic (which I swear was still caked in sand from Desert Storm).
Oh it's a systemic failure of quality and manufacturing at the company. It will effect all sales divisions and product lines. When the failure is at the source, all things will suffer.
Great video . Own a P320 ,without any issues so far... However it was the "upgraded version ". Their new Sig Romeo 4T and XT PRO seems to put lots of pressure on the T2 market, even though they can only be submerged to 1.5m and only 5years of warranty... after all I just don't feel backed up by their cuestionable claims.
That is bullshit, read on the website it can be submerged to 20 meters which is double eotechs water rating. I own a t2 and a 4T-Pro and the 4t pro is a better optic
Bought a post upgrade P320. Frame felt cheap. Sold it once i heard about them diacharging in holsters. Bought a P322 and the barrel leaded up terribly. Sold that too.
I noticed that on videos when people would rack the slide the plastic sounded very cheap . I saw a video a guy bought a new 365 and said when he really gripped it he could fell the grip moving after a couple thousand rounds he said he couldn't get a mag to stay in it .
First sig product SRD22X Suppressor. Sig sent a plastic tool to interface with end caps. Wrench broke first time attempting to disassemble and clean suppressor. Refused to send a replacement, purchased a new one from sig online, had trouble tightening end cap with correct torque (the plastic stripped on end caps). Later the suppressor loosened up and had a baffle strike. Sig accepted to replace baffle. I received the suppressor back a month later with the struck baffle center drilled out into a large uneven hole instead of replacing it to match the other baffles, that was their fix. Super disappointing. All done with sig, get anything else.
Oooooof no. Their investment casting is worse than SIGs. Remember how many Prodigy pistols they sent to reviewers that worked, then when people bought them they were all jacked up or breaking. It will be the same thing.
Bought a new P322. It had to go back to the factory three times. And it still didn't work until I replaced both magazines. Brand new magazines that didn't work.
Post recall it's perfectly fine. I have one for work and two others on my own. Check out the sig mechanics videos he explains what has to happen before the pistol discharges
Seen Brandon Herrera Akguy reviewed the Sig Spear 308 and caught a pmag malfunction, same thing happened with Morgan on Classic Firearms when they reviewed it against a Scar 17s lol
Seen more than a few P226 with double rolled logos on the slide. Seen a couple of Mk.25's with crookedly applied UID stickers. Very careless. What else is lurking inside the tool?
i had a 320 with an issue with the mag not being able to be inserted because of something with the disassembly lever?? i had it all built out too, comp and red dot and everything. even considered getting a flux raider. ended up selling it even if it was nice to shoot, but even after all that i still got the occasional stovepipe. the mag issue was enough for me to get rid of it. now my buddy has a 320 and the slide release is impossible to drop even with no mag. he is in denial and says he uses the sling shot method but i have seen him fumble the slide release when we shoot. sigh... its just more disappointing than anything. I will say that i have a gen 2 mpx, and its been pretty good so far.. but i did fuk up the bolt by reassembling it wrong and it sheered something important. something that got in the path of the ejector. I fixed the orientation and got parts for when it brakes but not exactly a fool proof reassembly if you ask me. also suppressor deviation is crazy, not recommended to switch often.
This dude exposed Trex arms and is now exposing sig. GOOD this conversation that needs to happen. People love the premium sig experience. The sig academy premium instructors and training, the going to a manufacturer and having the ability to try and buy. Just a streamlined experience that makes it easy as possible to get started. They do this well and other manufacturers need to do this as well. This is good because this helps make shooting more prevalent so people fall in love and vote for pro 2a policy.
7:54 - 8:02 *WHOA!!!!* LMAO I have the same feeling about Taurus firearms. Also I feel bad for the LE departments that adopted the P227 just to have it discontinued. They'll still get spare parts, but man that's a kick in the nuts....I wish SIG would have worked through some of the issues with the mags. Also, ETA: The SIG 2022 pistols in 9mm are also good to go. Nowhere near as popular as the P-Series, and probably we'll never get any upgrades like short reset triggers for it...but those guns are tough with a positive track record, and arguably are better DA/SA pistols for the money out of the box than something like a P2000 or a non-LTT PX4 Storm.
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Sig got these contracts because they hired Daniel Horner away from the army marksmanship unit (AMU). The AMU tests and evaluates every weapon for the army, so now you have a guy that knows the language needed in these contracts and he was their golden child and now he’s sending products to his buddies. Them getting Lena miculek helped too but having Horner was like Nike having Michael Jordan
Thanks for the information and it makes complete sense.
Also, Colt and FN sends seconds (in theory FUNCTIONAL seconds) of parts to DD BCM... PA,,, etc etc for their builds .. like your lower parts kit right now in your DD may be out of spec but not enough to effect function.,,, crazy huh
Sig Sauer undercut Glock by like 100 million dollars on the bid, THAT is why they got the contract.
These days, "Military Grade" means it was built by the low bidder... I should know... I've been building shit for the military for 35 years.
They used to throw out the high and low bid and select based on "best value" and each bidder's experience, resume, and reputation. On some contracts you had to meet strict qualification criteria. Now, it's all low bidder driven. They put out a spec and whoever can meet that spec for the lowest price gets the contract.
Contractors will submit bids for cost plus 2% and then beat up their suppliers and shippers to squeeze profits out of the contract. In turn, everyone is trying to buy the cheapest components and use the cheapest manufacturing methods. They will get as much done by the cheapest labor force they can... everybody is cutting corners.
That’s a lot for to put on a competition shooter lol
@@navyman8903gen scott miller is the reason why sig keeps getting military contracts. Also American companies getting huge contracts is a good thing for America,increases our GDP which is required in a growing economy. The definition of “Military Grade” is still the same. Hence the poo poo m18.
I'm sure the video is still processing, strap in, it's going to be a bumpy ride. Not sure if you will see ads or not, but I did use other UA-camr's content, which is in the resource section. Please watch their stuff as well for full context.
Bcm soon?
@@ringneck7500 Hopefully that and Daniel Defense would love a comparison video on The Ris 3 Vs. MK16
While I would love a P229, I'd NEVER bet my life on ANY SIG SAUER product. Especially, their polymer guns. They have failed and do not inspire confidence. Thanks for ALL your great input and videos!!! HK and Beretta forever!!!
I have a 227 tacops that has optimized trigger. Grey guns ELH trigger, SIG armorer's improved hammer strut, Amory craft smooth action kit. Had the slide milled for an RDS. With obsidian 45 can. The thing is a laser beam. If your ever in Michigan it is a treat to shoot.
@@user-jv4ic8rh4d I would absolutely love to shoot it if I'm there.
It's so refreshing to hear honesty and no shilling. Thank you dude.
Thanks for watching man, I appreciate it. Always nice to see you in the comments.
Freaking FINNALLY someone speaks the truth... It's like guys in the gun community are afraid to tell the truth about modern SIG. Super innovative but their engineering isn't complete and their QC is so unbelievably abhorrent. You hit so many points, this video is perfect.
I don't even think its innovative, their new rifles are basically AR-18 clones if you look at them.
Sig is still top dog. The most innovative company on the market. Yes they have a few bugs here and there, their customer service is great
@@12monkey57 lmao
@@12monkey57 Dude, did you even watch the video? SIG is awful.
@@12monkey57Good luck with that 365, mine was nothing but problems
Sig 1990s: "To Hell and Back."
Sig 2010s: "When it counts."
Sig 2020s: "May the odds be ever in your favor. "
Those are all 3 separate and distinct companies
when I was the RSO for my MP unit and we were Qualifying with the M17, I had a solider raise his had because his empty casing wouldn't extract. When looking at it closer it turns out the entire extractor ripped off. It was a brand new hand gun.
When my reserve unit first got them and we qualified, had I believe 2 , deadline on the range. First time being fired by the unit.
Since the 320 came out and got that contract, all of these "Sig" people fell out of the ether. Working at a gunstore, people come in and say "I'm a Sig guy" all the time. "I love my 320." When I tell them I'm not a fan of polymer Sigs, they ask why I'm not a Sig guy. I constantly have to point out to them that I'm a huge fan of the metal P series. They look lost when I say that, and THAT lets me know a few things.
Thank you for calling it out as a fellow Navy man and ACTUAL shooter of his guns!
That story rings true for me too. The deer in the headlights look I get every time is hilarious. Thanks for watching man, I appreciate it!
Even if there weren't any problems, the Spear should be like a $1500 rifle tops
Completely agree with you there.
100% I've been saying for a while now that their long guns are grossly overpriced. There's literally no reason to buy a 3k-5k spear because there is nothing it's capable of that a well built AR15 isn't.
At the end of the day, though, you'd be just as well off with an A4 😂
If it didn’t have the issues it has I think $2K would be fair.
Well, what does a Geissele Super Duty cost?
An LMT Monolithic CQB piston cost?
HK223/556?
LWRCi’s equivalent?
Barrett’s piston AR?
None cost only $1500.
oh my god my condolences on being forced to carry a bar of soap
👍🏻✝️
Sig innovates at such a rate that their qc can’t keep up. The anti Glock strategy basically. Sig actually reminds me a lot of keltec in the sense that keltec is also known for innovation and foregoing qc in favor of treating customers like beta testers.
The Keltec p32 tho
I wept when the German plant closed. Cohen ruined Kimber, and now SIG. Great video, good sir.
That’s what Cohen’s do to products, businesses, and nations.
Right on the money. They lost the quality and got someone who only knows how to crash companies.
Cohen...well it tracks now
229, M11-a1, and SP2022. Don't care for anything else from them if it isn't hammer fired. Thanks for the content homie, hope your summer is going well.
Love my sp2022
I can feel the anger. Thank you for the passionate and concise review. I hope more people will hold them accountable.
CEO "Ron Cohen"
And.. there it is.
The underminers, the plotters, the elite clan of little goblin people.
Grew up with Sigs being top tier. Sad to see what’s become of the brand. You are spot-on.
It truly is a sad state of affairs. Their leadership needs to change.
Sig hired a diverse engineering team, just like OceanGate.
source
It’s their CEO. Same guy who neutered Kimber. Chasing metrics that have little to do with what WE demand: profits
@@WDLC1911 Is Kimber not shit now then?
@kyrozudesoya1829 Personally I find Kimber guns lacking.
A diverse engineering team - great!
I had no idea there were so many problems with sig outside of the early 365 issues and the 320. Thanks for the heads up!
Milwaukee Police Department completely ditched their 320s for Glocks. They weren't the first the 320 is trash.
Navyman covered a lot of ground but even still this was only concerning service pistols. The model 250, 2022, Cross, P238 and P938 all have horrendous crippling issues as well.
He’s back from getting cigarettes 😢
I'll always come back, no matter how long it takes.
Can you still buy cigarettes?
*YES*
Where can you smoke them?
*NOWHERE*
😂
P230 and a P226. Those are the only two SIG's I own. I'd never waste 6K+ for a SIG Spear. Absurd. 🙄
AWW SHIT HERE WE GO AGAIN (smash that like button for the video. I'm genuinely so happy whenever navyman delivers the milk)
I feel that SIG now that they have Govt contracts, is like how Colt used to be in the early 2000's.
Not talking about the QC and the refinement part, more so on the Air headedness and lack of customer service/satisfaction.
I sure hope the Govt invalidates SIG's patent exclusivity so the Spear and 320 go public domain
Then we will see real improvements to the designs
@@morgonfr33m4n1337zI pray for that everyday.
My dads p220 SAS shot its magazine release through the metal frame into the snow one day and they sent him a light-railed replacement frame since, as you pointed out, they discontinue everything w the parts overnight. They even made him pay for shipping.
That's crazy, and also sounds just like them.
Yet Glock will just hook you up, no questions.
I am in the process of RMAing a Romeo4T and an experience that started off great has nosedived off a cliff.
I picked up a 4T secondhand and needed to switch to a low mount. Tale as old as time, last screw stripped, but Sig CS said that it was covered under warranty, which is great! Packed it up and sent it off, forgot about it. Red dot came back, the gunsmith note said:
"Mounting screw not stripped, just missing 3. Replaced screws and returned to customer."
Well, at least I'm getting it back in the condition I received it in.
I was finished with Sig Sauer around 2014 when their quality went into toilet.
Same
Look into Cohen's past companies, and you'll easily discover why Sig is going downhill.
Our tremendous business / financial "news" sector would have us believe that corporate raiding and junk finance scams died with Milken, Boesky and Icahn being show-trialed and "punished." The truth is that vampires are everywhere, and our "news" never focuses on their predations.
Early Life section missing....
Shut it down!!
Look up that sir name too lol
They went from a small 500 person company to a 1billion dollar, 2,000 person company in just 5 years under cohen. They have added .5million dollar contracts with the us army now and the ngsw contract etc etc. How is that down hill?
I’m heard that a Marine Corps general that had some involvement with Sig weapons being adopted is now on the Sig U.S. board of directors.
A fitting world with Raytheon's man in Austin, just like Bechtel's man G Schultz in other admins, Hallburton/KBR via Wyoming Dick, hey if you can't work the revolving door why even take a job in/with fedgov? Perky Johnson's Econ Sicario book was supposed to be fringe whacko stuff!
I've heard that too, but need to dig into that more.
Of all the sigs I own, the only one I ever had an issue with was my P229R when I first acquired it in 2012. There was deformity with the barrel that wouldn’t allow me to put the gun back together after field stripping. Sent it back to Sig and got it back in 10 days with the issue fixed.
I'm glad they fixed it for you and the metal framed hammer guns are still good to go, as of now.
I just stay away from anything SIG USA.
Edit: For the 5000 rounds recoil spring thing I'm sure that's a "mechanism" they created to avoid performing warranty work.
Oh 100%. Maximum excuses as always.
Being an assembler for SIG, most metallic framed guns, 210, 226 legion, 1911, etc. There is some form of pride when building a gun, then come the PR staff who only look for numbers built within a certain period of time, and say "move quicker" basically. It's really quantity over quality at this point.
Sig basically read the quote, “I fear the man who practices 1 kick 10,000 times,” and said nah - we’ll do the opposite.
Inb4 Siggers come out in force
SIGGER'S could be here.
@@Guesswhat87 kek
This vid is so off the chain… no SIG fanbois would dare step in to defend the crap that is now SIGARMS.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I’ve had a ~2019 p365 and a 2023 p320. I’ve ran bout 6-700 rounds on the p365 and about 1000 on the p320. I know, not extreme round counts, range trips are roughly monthly. The only reason I got a 320 was for a certain chassis from Utah with a built in manual safety. I’m happy with both for a few reasons. That said, your criticisms are absolutely 100% valid. I’m even somewhat iffy modern 226’s at this point, having shot a West German 226 a buddy of mine owns. And don’t get me started on the outrageous long gun prices. I agree with the optics points as well. I trust primary arms and vortex more for us poors. Thanks for sharing again dude.
I admit trading in my CZ75-BD for the p320 - for training familiarity, when our branch adopted the M18. I even further drank the coolaid and replaced my carry pistol with a 365XL. I had heard rumors of all the points you’ve made - but in my market research there must have been an overwhelming majority of counter propaganda. I feel as if I’ve been had. Thank you for your honesty; it’s giving me a lot to consider in my sidearms choices
Aw man, should have just kept the cz
It’s good to see you back. You absolutely nailed it with this video. I was a Gen 1 MCX Beta tester in 2016; recoil assembly disassembled itself during my first shots. Never again.
Send
In
Gun
That sounds like a super fun experience
I totally agree with you.I think the military made a big mistake. When they whent with the Sig p320 and the Spear Rifles.
Glock should’ve won that contract. It was all about money in the end. As with everything.
@@seanvine39nah, the Beretta M9A4
@@vrilcel well, there’s that too. No real reason to ditch Beretta.
Your timing on this video yesterday, in light of the P320 video circulating today of the officer’s pistol having an un-commanded discharge while in the duty holster, was epically clairvoyant. Well done bro. That said, see Yankee Marshal’s analysis of the video footage.
ua-cam.com/video/hCWyFH0P2LA/v-deo.html
YM is WAAAAYYYY too much of a Fudd for me, which is especially infuriating because the man knows his firearms.
I have a triple serial 229 in 357, it's awesome. I bought it a few years ago to add another 229 to inventory, and the guy asked me why i drove 3 hours to get it. For one, he only asked me for $400. Two, it was pristine.
I bought the "Pro-Cut" slide to try a pistol optic and to have a 9mm option.
Don't care for optics, but it runs great.
Thank you for the content as always. I was issued a sig229 for the last 3 years being attached to ncis (just switched over to the Glock 19) and it ran flawless with thousands of rounds through it. Throughout the last three years I still had to qual with the m18 and go to courses using the m17. I’ve had issues with both and seen problems on the fire line with other shooters. I’m not surprised the military chose it but just disappointed…
The M18s are garbage for sure. The metal framed SIGs I haven't had issues with, even the clapped out M11s we were running before were better. A 226 or 229 is fine with my, I'm obviously biased toward the 226. But anything else right now, especially their new generation guns are an absolute mess.
Got the 365 with 365xl Wilson combat grip used to have the sp2022. That being said my go to is G19 gen5
Now you have to do a Glock as a Brand video.
Going to replace my p365 when the new HK micro compact comes out
The German stuff was solid. After the US factory started running more and more and German less, quality control dropped drastically. They started trying to push out too many offerings too quickly and subsequently the end user suffers. After I retired from LE, I managed a gun shop and we had Romeo optics not work out of the box, most of the rental Sig’s would frequently have broken parts, mags rusting, etc. The 320 issues came and they offered a “voluntary upgrade” which should have been mandatory. I spoke with Rick at Lazy Wolf about this topic and he was saying a bunch of new reports of firing out of battery, along with other problems. Ultimately they have their fans who swear by them, but HK, Glock etc have not had anywhere near the amount of problems that Sig does. I tried to like my 320 but just didn’t trust it. Felt cheap. I loved my old 220, 229. Those were great! I think Sig needs to slow it down and not try to be the first out, rather strive to be the best out.
The 22x guns are great right now. But any of the new guns are cheap, unsafe and break with boring reliability. Every time I chamber an M18 for duty, I'm nervous it's going to go off.
@@navyman8903 Not a happy scene when that's the duty pistol you're talking about. Sorry man.
The sig factory in NH opened in 1990, the first gun they produced was the P229 and then it was only the slide assemblies….the frames were still imported from Germany…..those guns were and are awesome…easily as good as their (west) German products……the Sigarms era (1985-2007) was the best era for sig quality and reputation-wise. They didn’t cut corners, just made and delivered quality product…..then ron cohen got hired to “save” the company and the era of the p226 with 200 slide colors began…..as did the slowly accelerating deterioration of the company’s QC when cohen decided his company needed to stick its fingers in too many pies…..while we can thank sig for the proliferation of the micro nine and the modular handgun among others, we can also condemn them for their halfassed designs and pisspoor QC
Great video! Just goes to show how powerful marketing is. People still buying their polymer pistols as CCW defensive pistols is slightly terrifying to me after all the problems they've had. It'll probably take a fatal accident before they do anything serious about their design problems.
Was at the range last weekend. Some guys 229 had a misfire. It was his duty gun. If that was me I would throw the gun in the safe and never carry it for duty or ccw again. I knew their striker fired guns were problems. Had no idea about their hammer fired guns which used to be legendary.
Can confirm as a former shop worker and armorer. We had 3 p226 over 3 years as our rental guns completely warp their frames due to the recoil spring failing. This was well under 10k rounds, same failure on each gun. It was to the point where you couldn't cock the pistol. Note that we had CZ 75, Beretta M9, and numerous 1911s all metal frame that did not have the same failures. Although we had Beretta barrels break. Anyway, every year our SIG p938, and P238 never survived the year as a rental gun either. Never had a single stock Glock fail. Never an HK fail. Never a CZ fail. But always SIG and Rugers failed. They refused to honor our warranty and were a pain in the ass when we had to recall our P320s and SIG rifles.
Thanks for the info and confirmation. I appreciate you as always.
“Good thing we brought the Glock”
Navyman sig roasting is my favorite AMSR.
I've got pics of the Sig barrel retention mechanism for the Spear cracking. The metal pieces with the screws going into them, breaking on the section they hold the barrel on. AS far as I can tell it is the barrel moving relative to the receiver, not hte handguard moving relative to the barrel with the bendy Sigs. This is because one of the testers put a laser on the RECEIVER and the barrel shifted relative to it with one of those boresight lasers. The handguard would be irrelevant to that, the barrel had to mvoe relative to the receiver.
So it's the barrel retention mechanism that is too weak in the horizontal plane to keep the barrel centered.
Completely agree. There are some with rail issues as well. I'm more concerned with the barrel like you're getting at. But there are some with rails having problems.
@navyman8903 I believe it, the big meme is the barrel retention but good lord it's got mo problems
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 oh absolutely. I'm sure the "fix" will cause another problem somewhere else.
One thing too about their sig 320 line up is their crazy high bore axis that I don’t like. The pistol feels like a brick in your hand
because instead of making a new gun they just modded p250s
SIG’s “investment castings” are actually metal-injection molded parts done by INDO-MIM in India. SIG outsourced critical parts of their firearms to save money. Trigger parts, firing pins, strikers, extractors, basically all the parts that we see breaking all over the place.
Makes a lot of sense now.
As a 226 legion fanboi, I completely agree with you on all the cons, and the pros.
It's truly a sad state of affairs. I love mine and it always performs. I have over 4k through it. I might be over 5k at this point. It's been nothing but amazing.
Yoo. I know this is a serious matter, but my man had me crying laughing
At the time, I didn't feel Sig winning MHS was a big deal, but looking back now that we've seen the M17/M18/P320, Glock losing was a big deal. They really should've won, and even the M9 variant would've been ok since it addressed the largest problems.
I would have much preferred the M9A3 or Glock.
The M9 is nowhere near as accurate or reliable as the P320 or the glock 19
@@HaydenHKDA military M9 that has been beat to death and not maintained in decades is indeed less reliable than the Sig or Glock, but a properly maintained one is just as reliable.
@joshuabracke5775 even that military M9 comes right back to life the moment you put new springs and locking block into it. Can't say the same for the Sig.
The 19x was bullet proof for me and I bought it when they first released when everyone was ragging on them for a stupid design and a year later everyone changed their mind ,
I have a sig p320 axg pro metal frame have around 2000 plus no issues with the gun shots fantastic I was pretty bummed to see what their charging for the spear
Keep an eye on it, though the frame might be forged those internals are cast. I hope it continues to run well for you.
I miss my old 226 TacOps; I had a lemon in my legion 226, I didn’t have it for long. I wish I bought a 227 TacOps. Glad to see you back, I was really getting bored watching MK12 videos lol
Lol. I'll send you an email here later today to tell you what in up to. I also wish I bought a P227 and some older 226s. Also another Legion when I did, because apparently they changed those up too.....
Thanks God we live in a free country, everybody should be able to voice there opinin
This is the best video on UA-cam. Damn man, you brightened my day!
I don't know about the best, but thank you for the kind words and watching.
You're on fire in this video. I agree with 99% of what you said. I disagree that Sig doesn't have any decent optics to offer, though. The Romeo 5 I bought for my first AR has survived bumps, drops and falls and stayed zero. Although, I did swap the janky mount it came with for an ADM mount. Also, their Romeo 4XT-PRO and Romeo 8T are very solid optics.
I have a P365XL that I've put over 1K rounds through (mostly 124gr S&B and 124gr Speer Gold Dots) and haven't had any problems with it. However, I did have one instance where it spit a casing back directly into my face. None of my other pistols have ever done that. I'm in the 603, and I wish I could be proud of local gun makers, but the truth is I'm never buying a Sig gun ever again.
I got a P229 Elite recently and that's been great so far. I'm generally more interested in DA/SA pistols and DA revolvers than striker fired these days so I'll probably skip over the 320.
Their metal framed hammer guns are still good to go as of now. Hopefully that stays the case.
Thanks for the conversation. I'm an admitted Sig fan but I am not stubborn enough to ignore problems. I own a few P320's. They've been good guns so far. But, believe me when I say that I have my concerns. I will keep looking for more information regarding their apparent qc issues. I do appreciate your insight.
Thanks for watching and keeping an open mind. I genuinely appreciate it, believe me, this take on SIG in this video is not what I wanted to have. I genuinely love my experience with my Legion, other 226s and 229s I've shot. My Legion is my favorite 9mm.
@navyman8903 yea I have a gen 1 1/2 MCX that runs like a champ. But only after the initial improvements. I wish I didn't have to have any second thoughts.
Purchased 2 sig 365's. The spectre comp and the Tacops XMacro. No problems with either gun after hundreds of rounds through each. I do have to admit that I also purchased 2 Icarus Lowers for these guns which for those that are unaware are aluminum and extremely well made. They actually give these pistols the feel of the original metal series of sig handguns which I was looking for.
SIG customer service has stated that they expect the P365s to go about 2k rounds before needing critical internal replacement. So keep an eye on them.
@@navyman8903 Thank you. By the way, even though I am sure that you realized I screwed up, meant to say stainless and not aluminum.
Where i live (CT) we had two local PDs in the past year running P320s in safariland level 3 holsters go off randomly without any outside manipulation. One just happened a few days ago in Montville. But of course, the people swingin from Sigs 🥜 say the gun is perfectly fine and its “user error.” Funny my Glocks or 1911s or CZs or H&Ks never decided to randomly send one while holstered.
I absolutely can not believe some of the excuses I've heard about why they went off. How it was the holster or some debris in the holster. Absolute nonsense.
@@navyman8903 you and me both brother. If you watch the absolute garbage video yankee marshal put out today it will make you want to appendix carry a P320, chambered. Dozens of lawsuits….LEOs, civilians, all having the pistol go off in different types of holsters….but nope, gun is fine, Sig is amazing.
This series is great and you definitely put companies in their place when needed. Would love for you to do a video like this on primary arms and their optics.
YES!!! IVE BEEN HOPING THIS IS WHAY YOU WERE BRINGING!!!
So refreshing to hear somebody speak the truth and not pretend theres not an issue. Been subbed for years and videos like this earn my respect.
Thank you, it means a lot. I appreciate it.
I like sigs designs, but I don't think I'll be buying any of their stuff until they get their act together.
The first handgun I ever fired was SIG P226 that I rented at the range. Fell in love with it immediately. The old SIGs are amazing, the new ones not so much. I wouldn't buy a P320 or P365 if my life depended on it. I'm still wondering why the Army adopted the SIG Spear, feels like they just went backwards. Even the SIG Spear LT has had issues. I feel like the company is more hype now than anything else.
Completely agree man. I think once the plants closed in Europe and the US took over everything, they started to ruin good things. The P22x series guns they couldn't mess up if they tried, and they won't redesign it, which is what makes it safe. If they do a "redesign" run the opposite direction.
@@navyman8903 Yeah I think they were forced to close down their plants in Europe because they got tired of dealing with the EU and their firearms export laws. I just don't understand where the quality went and why the military keeps awarding them contracts. It's sad to see what SIG has become.
Can’t wait to see you do LWRC, Daniel Defense, Radian, and Knights Armaments!
He already did knights
@@2bas1c87 i just finished watching it not too long ago this morning oh well
You are spot on. The 226 is the only decent gun. I have said it for about five years or so. Sig is a trash company ever since they closed shop in Europe. For a semi auto duty level pistol only Glock, HK and Beretta are good. For rifles stick to HK, FN, DD, KAC, LMT, LWRCI and Geissele. What makes a company great isn’t if something breaks or not, because with enough use everything breaks/wears out, it is the customer service and support afterwards.
The SP2022 is also a great Gun!
What about Colt rifles?
Can we get a BCM video?
NH New Englander here. Not new to firearms but new to concealed carry. Is Berretta GTG? I have a Glock 34 and like it enough but was thinking something double action for carry
Yeah berrettas good
Sig is a perfect example of what to do, and what NOT to do as a gun company. They’re dipping their toes in a lot of areas like optics, ammo, silencers, etc. Which is all well and good. But as you said, multiple iterations of products get discontinued because there’s an “update”, which inevitably leads to more issues, and another update. And inevitably leads to another discontinued product. That isn’t a company that I’d want to rely on in any capacity, be it civilian, law enforcement, or military. Which is truly a shame, because the company made some truly great firearm. The whole P22X series obvious being their flagship.
My new and favorite edc and duty weapon. Sig 229 legion. Just a great daily do everything handgun. Corse with a few extras it’s perfection for me.
I have shot the classic SIGs for really long time, and I have used a ton of the double braid spring.
The 9mms NEVER needed a change.
The .40s and .45 will unwind in short order.
They now use flat springs, and those do seem to be better.
I also exclusively use the Grayguns "Fat Rod", and that's been pretty nice. I call it the fart rod, but thats because it's funny to say.
The classic SIG pistols are really an entirely different animal from the newer P320 and such. Even the ones with Exeter slides. There were some early chokes with the long extractor design on them, but I have one of 2021 vintage and it's stone cold reliable.
What about the 716i tread 7.62×51 rifle? I didn't hear it mentioned. Thank you for the video.
I don't have much experience with it, so I left it out. But reports for that are much better than the spear from what I gather.
I have two Sigs, a P320 XTEN 10mm and a P322 that I won as a prize for a raffle drawing. I got the XTEN because I really like the trigger feel on it and I was able to shoot it the best out of all the 10mms I tried (I also shot a Glock 20 and a Springfield XDM Elite). It also tames a lot of the recoil of the 10mm cartridge. I've put 480 rounds through it so far and it has been excellent. It had two magazine feeding issues in the first 50 or so rounds, but I've heard the magazines can be finicky until they get broken in. The slide was also difficult to rack in the beginning with the full 15 rounds, but has eased up since.
The P322 on the other hand has an issue with leading the barrel if you use unjacketed .22LR ammo. Especially the cheap stuff like Winchester plinking ammo. My leading issues weren't as bad as some of the others I've seen as only the distal most half inch of the barrel had lead on it after 150 rounds of Remington Thunderbolt. That is still pretty unacceptable. It took 30 minutes of a solvent soaked patch and at least 50 passes with a brass barrel brush to clean it off. I've only run copper plated ammo from CCI since and that seems to work well. The double stack 20 round mags also have fed pretty reliably and I haven't had any issues with the slide release like some other people had with early models.
Thank you for watching and taking the time to detail your experiences. I genuinely appreciate it.
This is why the only SIGs I use are P226/229s. My rifle is FN, and my micro pistol is a Walther.
Strong choices.
This is the one I've been waiting for.
Thanks for bringing up Sog dropping products at the drop of a hat. Say what you may about Glock, but they stand by their product and actually support older models still.
Sig should have called the vOlUnTaRy UpGrAdE program for the 320 should have been a recall. They would see alot less vitriol if they owned up to their mistakes.
Completely agree and Glock is getting much more attention and business from me. Which is sad to say considering how much I love my P226 and how well I shoot it. But I can't support how they're doing business either.
@@navyman8903 That is a major disappointment. Especially since Sig supplies the branches with the 320 and the new M5 (which I doubt will be standard issue long term, but I digress) the fact that service members are getting subpar, shit tier products made by the lowest bidder is par for the course. I just wish that the government had its priorities in check with how it spends our money
@@navyman8903 It seems to be a 21st Century, UK+US-led, attitude shift toward customers. "Beta testing suckers at best" or "a fool and his money are soon parted," take your pick. It's not limited to firearms and I bet you have noticed, it's not limited to business spheres either. As Billy Spear-shaker once said in a different era, "something is rotten in Denmark."
Hi Kitty!
And yes, I too have had probs with my sig.
Never had a single issue with any of my 6 HK guns over the years.
Oh hell yeah I love ripping on SiG. Their handling of the P320 drop safety was so bad. Voluntary upgrade? They should’ve recalled it immediately. The fact that there’s still 320s in circulation that haven’t had the “upgrade” is why I’ll never trust those guns
I really love these “As a brand” videos. I would love to see you touch on Colt someday, what with them just being absolutely brain dead when it comes to business decisions.
After seeing the damage from the pics and videos, I will be on the lookout for any issues with my P320s. I personally own the original P320 X-Carry and a Gen 2 P320 X-VTAC, with about 250 rounds run through both. No issues thus far, but I will be vigilant and send any updates to you if something happens. As a side note, I'll be getting a MK25 in the near future
Please keep me updated.
For me the constant changes they made to the P320 and the tolerance differences that made parts compatibility not a thing cannot be ignored. I have had every single polymer SIG over the years. The P320 has been the worst of the bunch, unfortunately. How do you sell slides and barrels for the same gun that are incompatible?
Completely agree.
@@navyman8903 I’m one of those guys who’s had generally positive experiences with my SIG products. But, that doesn’t mean I’m going to excuse their failures. The brand loyalty cultists are hilarious. We should never constantly have to be concerned that if we deploy a SIG in self-defense, or if it’s just chilling in a holster that it’s going to malfunction catastrophically. I have been tempted to thin out my SIGs in recent years in favor of something else.
Ron Cohen is what happened to Sig. He rolled in to Kimber in the early 2000s and just absolutely trashed their product and cut corners on building those guns. The company never recovered from that. Tell someone you own and Kimber and they'll laugh at you. Those were good 1911s for the money before he got there. My 320 just dumped itself at 3200 rnds. My M&P2.0 9c is still going strong on 7800 rnds. My gen 5 19 didn't start dumping itself until 9100 rnds.
You're exactly right. If you looked at an old SIS and compared it to what they were making after, you could see a clear drop in quality.
I've got a gen 3 19 still runs great and shoots tight at 30,000 plus rounds.
You’re right on the money, as usual. The only Sig I care to own anymore is a P226 Legion. I just wish I could find an SAO with the original crappy PVD finish. Hate the newer green colored cerakoted Legions. Never did like their striker fired guns. If I want a polymer gun I’ll take a Glock or HK. Almost bought one of their 1911s on a couple of different occasions but reviews I’ve seen caused me to hold off.
Loved the cat cameo with the tail seemingly pointing at your P226 as if to say “This is the only Sig worth owning!” Haha! Good stuff!
Agreed on all counts. I'm once again baffled at why they changed something that was working just fine. But it's SIG USA after all.
Question: You guys think these issues are primarily faced by the civilian and LE market? Or do you think the military has been affected by this as well? I'm pretty concerned by the fact that SIG is now the preeminent small arms contractor for the US military (XM7 rifle and M17/18 pistols) given the QC and reliability issues we're seeing. I never had any issues with any of the M16s I had from my time in the service, not even the crusty, old A2 I had in basic (which I swear was still caked in sand from Desert Storm).
Oh it's a systemic failure of quality and manufacturing at the company. It will effect all sales divisions and product lines. When the failure is at the source, all things will suffer.
Great video . Own a P320 ,without any issues so far... However it was the "upgraded version ". Their new Sig Romeo 4T and XT PRO seems to put lots of pressure on the T2 market, even though they can only be submerged to 1.5m and only 5years of warranty... after all I just don't feel backed up by their cuestionable claims.
That is bullshit, read on the website it can be submerged to 20 meters which is double eotechs water rating. I own a t2 and a 4T-Pro and the 4t pro is a better optic
@hunterwasden7522 They clearly stated in the specification section IPX-8 (1.5m water resistant for 30 mins) I assume you could read it.
I wanted to get their p365 380 but I dont know anymore
Bought a post upgrade P320. Frame felt cheap. Sold it once i heard about them diacharging in holsters. Bought a P322 and the barrel leaded up terribly. Sold that too.
I noticed that on videos when people would rack the slide the plastic sounded very cheap . I saw a video a guy bought a new 365 and said when he really gripped it he could fell the grip moving after a couple thousand rounds he said he couldn't get a mag to stay in it .
First sig product SRD22X Suppressor. Sig sent a plastic tool to interface with end caps. Wrench broke first time attempting to disassemble and clean suppressor. Refused to send a replacement, purchased a new one from sig online, had trouble tightening end cap with correct torque (the plastic stripped on end caps). Later the suppressor loosened up and had a baffle strike. Sig accepted to replace baffle. I received the suppressor back a month later with the struck baffle center drilled out into a large uneven hole instead of replacing it to match the other baffles, that was their fix. Super disappointing. All done with sig, get anything else.
I continue to be happy with my Sig knock-off Arex Rex Zero 1S
Is the new Springfield Echelon the new benchmark for polymer handguns?
Oooooof no. Their investment casting is worse than SIGs. Remember how many Prodigy pistols they sent to reviewers that worked, then when people bought them they were all jacked up or breaking. It will be the same thing.
Bought a new P322. It had to go back to the factory three times. And it still didn't work until I replaced both magazines. Brand new magazines that didn't work.
That's absolutely ridiculous. Sounds like they were just pushing stuff out to meet the demand, but didn't make sure it worked well first.
COKEMAN: MENTIONED
Dude, this rant was gold.
I used to be a SIG guy my P365X macro is a $800 dollar rust bucket. Sig sauer left a SOUR taste for them!
I've heard they're prone to rust because they're not coated well.
@@navyman8903 yeah even my mags are starting to rust and I clean my guns a lot
😳
I bought a p320 carry police trade in around June so I now I'm not sure what to feel lol
Post recall it's perfectly fine. I have one for work and two others on my own. Check out the sig mechanics videos he explains what has to happen before the pistol discharges
@seraph1926 there was a video dropped yesterday of a post recall sig P320 going off in a holster without being touched.
Seen Brandon Herrera Akguy reviewed the Sig Spear 308 and caught a pmag malfunction, same thing happened with Morgan on Classic Firearms when they reviewed it against a Scar 17s lol
Seen more than a few P226 with double rolled logos on the slide. Seen a couple of Mk.25's with crookedly applied UID stickers. Very careless. What else is lurking inside the tool?
i had a 320 with an issue with the mag not being able to be inserted because of something with the disassembly lever?? i had it all built out too, comp and red dot and everything. even considered getting a flux raider. ended up selling it even if it was nice to shoot, but even after all that i still got the occasional stovepipe. the mag issue was enough for me to get rid of it. now my buddy has a 320 and the slide release is impossible to drop even with no mag. he is in denial and says he uses the sling shot method but i have seen him fumble the slide release when we shoot. sigh... its just more disappointing than anything.
I will say that i have a gen 2 mpx, and its been pretty good so far.. but i did fuk up the bolt by reassembling it wrong and it sheered something important. something that got in the path of the ejector. I fixed the orientation and got parts for when it brakes but not exactly a fool proof reassembly if you ask me. also suppressor deviation is crazy, not recommended to switch often.
This dude exposed Trex arms and is now exposing sig. GOOD this conversation that needs to happen.
People love the premium sig experience. The sig academy premium instructors and training, the going to a manufacturer and having the ability to try and buy. Just a streamlined experience that makes it easy as possible to get started. They do this well and other manufacturers need to do this as well. This is good because this helps make shooting more prevalent so people fall in love and vote for pro 2a policy.
7:54 - 8:02 *WHOA!!!!* LMAO I have the same feeling about Taurus firearms.
Also I feel bad for the LE departments that adopted the P227 just to have it discontinued. They'll still get spare parts, but man that's a kick in the nuts....I wish SIG would have worked through some of the issues with the mags.
Also, ETA: The SIG 2022 pistols in 9mm are also good to go. Nowhere near as popular as the P-Series, and probably we'll never get any upgrades like short reset triggers for it...but those guns are tough with a positive track record, and arguably are better DA/SA pistols for the money out of the box than something like a P2000 or a non-LTT PX4 Storm.