@@antondeak9580 No way man, that's Duel Zone! (I'm not being serious, but I remember being so confused when I saw the name Duel Zone before realizing that's what it was)
forgot one stage, and it has every problem you mentioned: walls everywhere, water, sloped floor, a ceiling, and ledge for soap and shampoo... It's no wonder that the shower is banned from competitive play, and most smashers don't even play is casually.
great delivery but stale material like, come on, i'm not trying to be defensive here, but the whole smash players don't take shower joke is getting really old
@@palpatinerocks3260 No Its not Great cave offensive. I was thinking it was the one with Palutena's guidence and then i realized it's literally a shower. He was making a joke.
yoshi’s melee is 100% different than battlefield, having a place to tech jump and wall jump off of completely changes the offstage encounters of the stage, and deserves to be in the counterpick category of a competitive ruleset
not only that but it also has the lowest ceiling for a tri plat, and the bottom platforms are higher than battlefield completely changing combo games for some characters. i would take bowser and palu to battlefield but i would NOT take them to Yoshis thats for sure.
Balents I also think its important to note that the platforms cover way more of the main stage (I think its because the main stage is smaller, but I’m not certain) I’m not certain how it effects most of the fighters but it can be a big difference.
Esam, best and most knowledgeable pika player in the world, has said before that battlefield is Pikachu's least preferable stage, but you look at pika on yoshi's and his offstage game is entirely different and way better than it already is.
@@zeno1099 yeah you definitely know what clone means. "Guys this stage is just like battlefield but with major differences, it's a clone." You're not just a clown, you're the entire circus
@@zeno1099 I haven't I apologise, I'm too used to people not having the sense to know what good legal stages are. (Also I like just woke up lol) again sorry lmao
Pretty much yeah Honestly competitive players should embrace the new gameplay opportunities, combo routes, and options that are made possible by slants and small walls Also SOME walk offs are perfectly fine to play on, the only reason they're banned is because they're walk offs and if you're opponent FUCKS UP AND GETS TOO CLOSE TO THE THING THAT KILLS YOU AT THE EDGE they could die for it Y'know, that thing that's common sense to most players that are skilled enough to not need to cheese their opponents? That every other stage has since getting too close to the blast zone is always a threat?
@@temporalCasterthe “problem” is that some characters don’t have projectiles that deal damage so they have to approach you, meaning you can just stand next to the blast zone, grab them and use back throw. Except that’s not even true because attacks beat grabs so you can just use a moving attack like most dash attacks or Warios bike to counter that strategy.
@@algotkristoffersson15 Isn't that the point of a counter pick stage though? To give people stages that are less balanced so they can adjust their matchups
"...I really can't see much justification for why this stage should be legal" Uh, Yoshi's Story IS pretty widely legal. It's occasionally not but of the stages that aren't consistently legal, Yoshi's is the least banned stage.
@@TheUltimateRare Exactly. That's why i don't see why that's a valid reason to ban wario ware. Isn't having quicker matches a good thing? And if you actually look at the stage measurements it's really not much shorter than some legal stages
@@BlueBoboDoo100 i guess they just don't like close blast zones or something. They'll have to think about it among themselves, my opinion won't really matter, I only play smash to mess around and destroy players, but not for 1v1 vs humans or serious events.
@@BlueBoboDoo100 I think they ban WarioWare because of it's close blast zones. Characters like Ganondorf would be stupidly overpowered on those stages and they would always be picked or counter picked, so having them banned allows for equal fights.
@@shizustrian that's precisely why we ban stages with close blast zones. And the Ganon example was spot-on. Also, Mac and Falcon can do really stupid shit on WarioWare. Like....REALLY stupid shit.
-Makes stage restrictions so incredibly restrictive that basically only Battlefield clones or flat platforms are legal. -Complains about all the legal stages being Battlefield clones or flat platforms.
It's easy to argue against a strawman. But there are many ways to arrange the platforms to make it interesting; without adding walls, ceilings, walk-offs and slants.
the thing is for competitive specifically. theirs only so many ways to make a stage fair without adding in any cheese strats like camping and running away. this locks a stage into not being too big or too small. flat and with 0-4 or so platforms. anymore platforms and you get too big see"big battlefield" any unique features add walls ceilings and cheese. so in a video discussing competitive fights from a competitive player. your going to exclude just about everything. and if you make a state a little unsymmetrical you gotta be careful not to just make a stage where 1 side is better than the other else its jsut an advantage fest. ok so we run out of ways to move platforms around lets add a second ground area but symmetrically. sure but that again either makes the stage too big or makes the second areas too small. just because he lists a stage as not good or banned doesnt mean its a bad stage or that any of us are wrong for lking it. the problem is just if it can go wrong and ruin a match...it will because competitive players dont play to have fun they play to win. sure fun is important but if something unfun makes it into a match and that wins thats what people are going to do. this leads to a lot of banning and controlling of the rules.
In fact only Yoshi's Story is a bit similar to battlefield in all the legal stages. And even tho it has some differences like a wall on his sides, different blastzones and curved ledges which changes everything. All other BF-likes are banned. All other legal stages are not BF-like.
When did he say that? 2:28 "Also keep in mind this is just my opinion, but i will try to argue in a *mostly* objective way". He never tried to be as objective as possible.
@@dramotarker1352 It was a hyperbolic quote. But also, right there, he said it right there. In _your_ quote. Ta da. We're on the same page. Don't worry.
@@notswush Yeah of course. But here I was hoping he was gonna explain why _tournaments_ ban it, not why he hates a stage. Like idgaf if this guy hates walkoffs and mentions it 20 times, and when he explained why walkoff stages were banned in tournatments, that's what I wanted to hear! Everything else? Nah. Because he's not a tournament.
Can we talk about how we should be able to turn hazards on and off from the stage selection screen so that FoD can be legal and smashville can have the cool moving platform?
Well, FoD would still be banned. Even aside from being a battlefield clone, the framedrops are why it's banned. It was banned for the same reason in Melee doubles. I feel like Smashville wouldn't become legal with hazards necessarily either, since the platform did promote camping and really fucking degenerate early kills.
Better idea. Make a ruleset where the stage selection is random. Make the only stage that can be chosen at random the desired stage. Create a ruleset for each stage.
While i dont think haz on/off combos will happen, i still like to argue that haz on restricted stage tourneys could happen if FoD gets patched... albeit with a small stage list by comparison.
gamrage my only small problem with the stage is that quite a few characters can’t hit the platform the center with attacks that would normally reach it. Oh yeah and occasionally Lucario’s up b just yeets you into the blast zone if you land on the stage.
gamrage yeah it’s just something you have to remember with certain characters. Like Joker almost reaches and it looks like he could reach but it falls just short so, you just have to keep it in mind. I still think it’s fine as a stage.
(3:50) Final Destination has the issue with being all flat, that it gives projective players the benefit. They can cover the ground with projectiles, and don't give the opponent multiple paths to take. It's a stage with very minimal flanking posiblities.
@@charKT-7461 it also gives the advantage to specific characters, which I thought was the whole reason multiple stages got banned in multiple games (like most Brawl stages, for example)
@@temporalCaster it gives advantages to characters who doesn't rely on platforms if their opponent does. For example, platforms aren't a big part in Bowser's gameplay, but they are a HUGE factor in Mario's.
It's definitely more advantageous for projectile characters. But, Battlefield is better for ladder-combo characters, so I think having the option is warranted.
@@RacingSnails64except- it isn't. While platforms help get in, they're not necessary for most characters to get in if they know how, plus it's harder to get in on zoners on other stages. Take smashville, one center platform over the stage. If the zoner stands under that, you can no longer approach from above while they cover the ground, giving you even less options than FD. FD is not as good for zoners as it is for characters with strong advantage states with good juggling and ledgetrapping. No plats makes it harder to land, normally forcing you back to ledge where you can't get off since every option can be reacted to except jump, but jump puts you right back in a position to be juggled. Someone like Chrom gets much more of a boost from FD than a character like Young Link would, despite Chrom losing some combo routes
“Yoshi’s story is pretty much just a battlefield clone” “FoD is a battlefield clone with different blastzones” Uhhh so yoshi’s doesn’t? YS has a ton of differences with battlefield, the blastzones are smaller, it has walls and slants, and the platforms are longer and are positioned differently. Some matchups are way different on YS than on BF, which can’t be said about DL or hazardless FoD.
I'd say this is mostly a good way to explain stage legality to someone out of the loop, but I do see a couple of problems with this video that would keep me from recommending it. For example, certain aspects being dismissed as simply bad without much or any elaboration, such as small stage size (we have legal stages that are a bit on the big side, so is that really such a terrible flaw for Castle Siege to be slightly on the small side, for instance?) or sharking and why that would be a problem. Anyone who doesn't see the "obviousness" of why sharking would be bad will just be left confused, so it's probably worth touching on that. I also can't help but feel that about halfway into the video, there is a bit of a tonal shift from analysis and logical explanations as to why certain stages are or aren't widely banned, to you simply summarising how you personally feel about these stages. It strays a bit from the intended topic of the video as I can't imagine this is entirely intentional. It also sometimes takes away from the actual analysis, like Lylat Cruise apparently being too similar to other tri-platform stages. Maybe it's just me, but it really doesn't look that samey to me.
Plus the low-effort vibe from the bad grammar in the transition images combined with the parts where he just complains about the stage make this vid feel more whiny than informative.
Yeah, the video is titled as an analysis but it definitely comes off more like an opinion piece to me. I don’t mind hearing opinions, but I’d have preferred to watch what I came for.
"There are too many pieces of unconnected land here" regarding Saffron City. I'm not saying Saffron City should be a legal stage, but why is it bad to have too many pieces of unconnected land? How many is too many?
Not to mention, for the majority as you said, he stopped stating which ones were legal and not legal, and just started ranting about the stages that weren't ideal, and what worked.
@Adam Thompson They don't win tourneys because they are bad, but that does not be they cannot kill extremely early, especially against a more casual player who doesn't know how to properly avoid a lot of Hero's jank moves.
@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote true, they could have also gone with something like the museum (have the four sections be random or morphing) or maybe inside Tom Nooks store
Most stages have slants. Slants "changing how the gameplay fundamentally works" is PART of how the gameplay fundamentally works. Same with blast zones being closer in some stages than others -- it's a thing that you play around. Having to play differently on different stages is a feature, not a bug.
"Bishops can attack from further than one square away, which really messes with how the game works. And the knight's diagonal move is janky. Queens and rooks have similar problems to the bishop, and can ruin a good en-passant strategy. Distance attacks in general tend to interfere with the core of chess, which is pawns and kings."
@@Ditocoaf Pfffft, yeah, a competitive Smash player's ideal version of chess would literally be checkers lmao. Every piece just constantly moves the same way every time. Different mechanics to keep track of fundamentally changes how you have to think in the middle of a match, so every piece should just jump diagonally one square. The rook can just move to the other end of the board in one move? How op! And don't get me started on castling! Like could you not just camp in the corner of the board behind a bunch of pieces?? What an unbalanced gimmick! Speaking of unbalanced gimmicks, uhg the knight! Up two and over one? Such a gimmicky way to move that's just unfun and unfair to fight verse, ban the knight! And the queen is way too op!! Ban the queen!!
@@pinkie723Smash players don't bother to learn matchups or how to play against characters, evident by how they tried to ban Hero, Min Min and now Steve.
Calling Yoshi's Story a battlefield clone is like calling Luigi a Mario clone. It plays completely different, smaller base platform, different tri plat placements, much smaller blast zones, and a wall on the edge. There is no justification for potentially banning it
@@algotkristoffersson15with how many stages there are that would be actually insane. Have you ever been to a tournament? They need to stay on schedule lol
I mean to be fair, "sharking" isn't even a valid reason anymore. Either Wuhu Island or Skyloft has no reason not to be a counterpick. This isn't Brawl where Meta Knight can camp under the stage indefinitely anymore and abuse ledge invincibility to negate punishes.
I disagree. Characters that can shark under the stage with no punishment force the other player (who isn’t camping) to either approach them from underneath (which is either an easy gimp, or free stage control) or avoid them altogether. The greatest example I can give is meta knight/jigglypuff vs any character with poor air mobility or bad recoveries on Skyloft. It means that the meta is now centralized around ONE strategy (that being sharking on Skyloft for easy kills), which invalidates any other strategy. MySmashCorner made a good video a couple (years?) back on this, and it still holds today. If you would like to see someone explain it better than me, you should watch it. EDIT: Although ledge invincibility is no longer abusable, there are still far too many problems that shift the meta too far towards one specific strat.
ledge regrab mechanics in this game make it so that sharking really isnt a viable option when compared to brawl. also, meta knight isnt a problem in this game. that was the #1 reason for sharking being so annoying in brawl.
@@Robbie_Haruna sharking isn't the only reason why wuhu is banned. The platforms get way too close to the blast zones, not as much as walk-offs, but enough to get it banned. also slants for both of them but I really don't care about that.
@@Robbie_Haruna Actually, it kinda does. Stages that you can pass through completely invalidate characters who rely on the wall or slant to get back up, such as Ness and Lucas, who bounce upwards towards ledge on solid stages, but not on stages like Wuhu or Skyloft. That's kinda why a lot of stages should have a solid board, so they have something to guide their up-B. With Lucina for example, if you are anywhere below ledge, you will grip, but you have to be much more specific with where you up B less you just straight up miss the ledge.
4:50 another reason it’s banned is the way the stage interacts with the player, the stage itself is semi-solid, meaning you can jump through it, now this doesn’t sound bad on paper, but because of this a large part of the cast just doesn’t grab the ledge even when they should have. The game just can’t tell between you trying to jump through, or trying to grab ledge, and it often defaults to trying to jump through
Let me save 26 minutes of your time: Small stages are small: Banned. Asymmetrical stages are asymmetrical: Banned. All tri-plats are just battlefield clones: Banned. Any stage that slightly allows sharking is banned. Why? No idea, it's not explained. And don't forget: If the stage has any slant, it's banned. Explain this to me: In what world is it better to have such a small stage list when you can just add more stages and allow more bans? We need smaller stages on the stage list, the current common lists include a lot of big stages that encourage more defensive play, and while there is nothing wrong with that, some variety wouldn't hurt either. Lylat is good. The Yoshi stages are good too. Warioware may be a bit too much but I personally think it's fine. Siege is good too, asymmetrical layouts aren't inherently bad, the ones seriously discussed for competitive play don't give a huge advantage to either player, so what's the problem? Are we just banning stages because they're different and people don't want to learn new things, or maybe because we want our characters to do better? Your hatred of slants definitely seems like it. Yes, these stages make certain characters stronger than others. That's the literal point of a counterpick. Should Melee players remove Dreamland from the stage list bc Jigglypuff has an advantage in it? While on the topic of Melee, if people can handle the PS1 hazards and small blastzones on Yoshi's, you can handle the stage in Ultimate, they increased the blastzones to the point where they're almost identical to Town and City's. I guess what I'm trying to say is: This community needs to stop acting like babies. I know how fragile Smash is as a competitive game, but the overly conservative stage list is taking it too far. We have a hazard toggle option and suddenly stages that used to be perfectly fine that made people go "if only we could turn hazards off the stage would be legal" are "too similar to battlefield" or "allow sharking so they're bad"?
As an aside, "if you don't like the stage ban it" is a fine argument, you used fallacies to try to make it seem worse than it is. Everyone knows that Pirate Ship is a horrible competitive stage, but Warioware is debatable because of how much more reasonable it is. And again, this argument wouldn't be a thing if we simply allowed more stages and gave players more bans. There's literally no downside other than the set taking slightly longer, and the community having to adapt to something slightly different.
Dude I can't understand why the fuck they would be ok with Lylat but not with Halberd. Like wtf. I can understand why Siege is not ok, the slant is too much in my opinion and it gives an advantage, alright. But Halberd ????? Come on ffs. People can handle Pokemon Stadium in Melee but NOT HALBERD "BECAUSE IT IS NOT THAT OPTIMAL", in this video he didn't give any clue about what it was banned. Well, yes maybe the platform is a bit low, but they are banning it for that ? There are no walls, no camping, it's symmetrical, no platforms to the sides, blastzones are ok, but it's still banned ? I mean, if there are no reasons to ban it, then to me people deciding to ban this kind of stages are just litteral babies who just don't want to play the fucking game.
Fr fr. We now pick stages before characters, so pick your characters around the stages. Too bad no tournament organizers want to change anything about the ruleset
So we are accepting stages like Kalos despite being very big but banning WarioWare because of size !? I've seen a lot of Pichus surviving at 120% on this stage and only allowing medium-big stages promote camping and slow matches (something that people don't like)
So many Ult players don't want fast paced games and prefer to just stay on huge ass stages like Kalos where they can live for longer and make more mistakes, dragging the games out to insufferable times. Warioware too small and unfun, right? Nothing more fun than seeing an Olimar or Sonic pick Kalos and camp the shit out of their enemy, right? Real fun! Legalize Warioware as a counterpick. It opens up the game to more diverse character choice, and promotes faster paced gameplay. "You can die from minor mistakes because of the blast zones" is *not* a valid reason to ban a stage. If you want Smash to be considered a fighting game, stop accepting mediocrity. The entire point of a fighting game is to play as close to perfection as you possibly can. If you fuck up and get punished and killed, that is on *you.* It is *not* a result of the stage. You *know* what stage you are playing on, *know* how easy it is to die on Warioware, and should be *on top of your game.*
@@ApexGale There's a difference between "counterpick" and "a specific archetype just can't play". Warioware is just a little bit too small, if it was just slightly bigger it would be perfectly fine. The problem right now is that it's so small that any passive/spacing play is incredibly hard to pull off at all, while aggressive in-your-face characters are unstoppable. Plus, kill percent drops by like 30%, which means that characters with good low percent combos but poor kill power get buffed to the moon.
This man's explanation against slants bewilders me, cause it's only the word "jank" and that's it. The jank slants even offers is so dissmisable that my mind boggles about people's complaints against them.
@@Halcypian to me it just gives the impression of "i hate it because of how different it is". can you really call yourself a pro player if everything has to cater to your tastes? i might be a bit harsh here, but it annoys me how the competitive scene hates everything that is different
@@Underworlder5 I wouldn't put Rekzius as the face of competitive Smash, he's far from it really. If you want to talk about prop player opinions, you should seek those who truly master the game, and most of those who do, such as Mew2King, Esam, ZeRo, people who's voices are backed up by some form of credence, tend to not complain and talk much about such supposive "controversial" topics because they're not.
"here is a criteria of stage elements that would make a stage invalid for comp play" "these other stages do not contain illegal elements but are not different enough to justify being an option" love comp smash lmao
The stages need to be different in order to prevent redundancy. My local ruleset is currently having this problem, with basically three types of final destination. In competitive play, theres a striking system, in which you ban two stages you dont want to play on. If there are too many similar stages, then banning two stages would be useless as the opponent can just use the next best stage.
@@powerowl2120 too many bans and it becomes a time concern. Easiest solution is to remove redundancy. Why add more bans when you can just have one of each stage.
@@fullgirlsemiboy no I agree I was just making a joke on what the common response is to that. I do think we need more stages to choose from tho, like the smaller stages because they benefit the characters that dont get any advantage or even disadvantaged from the bigger stages which are the norm. And in that scenario we may actually need more bans if say wario ware and other smaller stages were unbanned, but at least those stages would have variety and purpose
Warioware should really be a counterpick. It being small balances the stagelist more, current stagelist include like only Smashville as a small stage which really nerfs characters that fight up close.
Problem with WarioWare is that not only is it a small stage platform wise, but it's an extremely small stage blastzone wise. Ultimate has a lot of high base knockback moves that can straight up kill at 0 on that stage. It was only legal in Project M after they increased the size of the blastzones. I agree that most stagelists favor larger stages and that it hurts some characters, but Wario Ware is not the first stage you should look to.
no stage should be legal where certain high tiers have consistent setups to kill a good chunk of the cast at 0. warioware should never be legal, it makes the tier list even more lopsided.
Boring is often a much better choice than frustrating. And 'fun' stages like Temple can often lead to way more boring fights when people are playing to win because all they'll do is just run the timer out after getting a percent lead.
Unpopular opinion: I like slants. I feel like they add more importance in positioning in the game and I love all the weird interactions that it creates so it can reward players for their knowledge and reduces the amount of set-play with flat stages. Do I think they are janky and make things a little less consistent? Yes. Do I still love the hilarious, funny, and unorthodox interactions it creates? Yes!
there already is inconsistency in the competitive scene. if stitch face turnips, judge and misfires are fine, then so should slants. your unpopular opinion is probably more popular than you think
“Slants change how things like jab locks work” Yeah that’s why they’re there. Got jab locked 30 times last game? Go to Lylat. Also lylat is nothing like other tri plats not even counting the slants
@Some Idiot's Dota Those ledges are fucking crazy man. You can like hang onto them and stuff. Why can't we just have stages where the players are falling through an endless void with no ground? That would be so much easier and I wouldn't have to learn anything other than my character move list.
"I'll try to argue in a mostly objective way." "Big Blue: There's basically nothing wrong with this stage." "This stage is fun and all, but not something for competitive events."
11:45 what makes the slants “purely a bad thing”? in yoshi’s story, i feel like the slants in this case are a good thing because it creates more variety, allowing for some moves to autocancel when they normally wouldnt be able to. it also deters players from camping because some projectiles can’t be used from the ledge
@@aqualacerta3961 it's that, but also it just stops D3's gordo's which isnt fair, if you suck in your own gordo and fire it to kill, and then it hits a slant instantly and stops, that's not fair
I think most people don’t mind symmetrical slants on both sides like on Yoshis island brawl or Lylat, but ones in the middle of the stage like castle siege or mementos are kind of annoying.
Seriously, the fear of smaller stages is just agonizing. What's even the point of having counter pick stages if they are all just about equal? Also the dismissal of the "Just ban it" argument was way off base. Wario Ware is without a doubt a 100% perfectly legal stage. It's small size is why it would be a counter pick stage. I'm of the opinion that there should be no bans, why are we giving the winner so much power to make sure they get the fight they want. If you want to be the best then learn to fight in a smaller and larger than normal stage. Wario Ware and PS1 (It's bigger than PS2) should be counter pick. No bans.
Yea, pretty much. "If it's anything besides floor and slightly different floor then it's banned. Oh, btw, we don't allow floor when it's interesting, only flat floors for us."
@@kwestionablplus yes, ofc I'm complaining. Imagine having a competition that is based on how good you are at a video game, and more than half of the content in the video game isn't even allowed. Imagine how awesome it would be to see insane slope tricks and wall shenanigans on the screen! It would be so cool! And, it would create a lot of insanely hype moments. But no, they decided that they were just not good enough for main components of the game and just decided to remove it.
@@lilyofluck371 some of these maps are fun to play and not fun to watch, or are fun to watch but not fun to play, I think pro players have just been playing with the standard battlefield or final destination - type stages because its simple and doesnt provide any distractions from the main fighting of the game, and of course you are free to play on those flashy stages with unique layouts in your own time if its what you find fun 😇👍
I feel as though Castle Siege is a viable counterpick, the small size makes for some really intense fights and minimizes the chances of camping while giving zoning characters less of an advantage in a lot of instances. There's still ample room to fight on the stage, and platforms to avoid incoming threats, I think the stage is much better than some of the legal options we currently have.
THANK YOU. People don't understand that heavyweights are at a disadvantage with our current ruleset. Incenaroar especially and the smallest you can get is lylat which is lylat. And unlike other asymmetrical stages both sides have advantages and disadvantages so being slightly lower doesn't put you in disadvantage.
DesHex if palu just didnt have explosive flame, itd be a great legal stage, but she’s already top tier in the current ruleset and legalizing CS would buff her more
As a more casual player, stages with traveling walk offs are removed from the random selection because nobody wants to be fighting to keep up with the stage.
Those stages that are banned only because of slants and is smaller is just an excuse to not adapt at all. Small stages are amazing for heavyweights. Small enough for them to recover easily, and can still kill at modest percentage. That's the thing about it, most top and high tier characters are mid and light weight. So that'll force them to change their play style and how they should approach. Having counters is good, makes competition more intense and everyone gets a fair chance. Slants puts projectile users a at a huge disadvantage since most projectiles go in a straight line. That'll force them to approach the opponent differently and use their tools differently as well. Also prevents campy projectile users and gives characters without projectiles a chance to approach them and actually fight back. Sharking could benefit many characters and forces everyone how they should recover. Adds new depth, new strategy, and new ways to play the game. Stages too similar to either Battlefield or Final Destination should still be legal just for visual variety. It gets boring looking at the same stages for a long time. Gives it more personality to the game since it's a Nintendo crossover fighting game. It's a recurring theme about the banned stages. Any stage that forces you to completely change your play style and puts top/high tiers at a legitimate disadvantage is automatically banned. It shows that the Smash community refuses to change and adapt.
Small stages are great for heavy-weights, but there's a difference between being small and good for aggressive play and being so small that you consistently die at 70% playing more passively being completely unviable. For slants, it's a bit of a mixed bag. It can add to diversity (as you said with projectiles mostly going straight, as well as allowing distinct ledge options and the like), but you also run into some problems due to the height change. A person at the bottom of a slope has a major advantage because they are simply that much smaller, so certain moves will drastically change in spacing, some will downright whiff constantly, some will have odd kb angles, etc. It entirely depends on how they are set up, and how large they actually are. Sharking is another mixed bag, because it creates some interesting variety while also introducing some severe problems. For instance, ledge trapping is severely hampered due to how much easier it is to go below the stage to get a hit when trying to get off of ledge. Certain characters can abuse the lack of solid floor to cheese or stall for extremely long periods of time, and it completely reworks how disadvantage works, which isn't ideal. Depends what you mean for this one. If they're all stacked on top of battlefield as one pick/ban, then honestly, omega or battlefield stages just work better. If you want them to all be separate stages, then banning battlefield is legitimately pointless. No, not all stages are designed to buff top/high tiers. However, any stage that forces you to completely change the way the game is played is definitely a problem, because it forces you to learn a completely new set of habits and reactions specifically for that stage. This means that you are now forced to spend much, much more time learning to play the stage rather than just refining your normal play skillset. This wasn't always the case in previous games, but now that we do have these options, we can afford to be more choosy with our stages simply because comp players are focused around who is the best overall player.
Ben Passlow uh oh here comes the casual player here to say why a scene they know nothing about it terrible. Smash isn’t a shooter or a MOBA, it’s a fighting game. You act like these things weren’t tried out before, it’s like, the first Smash tournaments had items on and every stage legal, but they were eventually banned for being, well, trash
@@CCuppy29 He has a point. The Smash community hates changes and don't like playing outside of their comfort zone. Literally new possibilities for new play styles, new strategies, and more, but y'all are stuck in Smash 4.
Ben Passlow damn it’s almost as if, as if someone who’s spent more time on the game has a better understanding of it. Most competitive players including me started off playing casually, it’s not that we hate it, but a lot of stages aren’t fit for competitive play, I still enjoy them with my friends, but for serious practice I turn them off. Even with this, it isn’t hard to at least have the most basic semblance of respect for the competitive community, one of the best parts of Smash is being able to play it however you want, we respect casual play, respect us. Personally, my girlfriend plays casually, but still understands what I like to do and watches my sets on stream for support, it isn’t that hard
@Ben Passlow Smash hasn't exploded because it's a fighting game, which are almost always niche. Within the FGC, Smash is currently the biggest overall community. The problem with stages forcing players to learn is that smash in itself is already an extremely complex game to learn, especially in Ultimate. Most character vs. character interactions have dozens to hundreds of iterations that as a player, you have to recognize and adapt to. Rinse and repeat for every other type of interaction, and then add a mix of 70 characters. If the stage forces the player to learn specific habits and reactions for only that stage, you end up creating huge stage meta-games, which is not what you want for a stage.
@@unluckytoby buwu slants forces me to play differently and adapt , and they could make a good conterpick for the other player i don't want it * sad emoji face *
Ah yes, because you can adapt to a matchup but not a stage? Like jesus, the people who do competitive stage lists are trying to be professional right? Well isn't being professional, especially in a work environment, being able to deal with unexpected issues or unexpected results? Being *professional* about it?
@@unluckytoby I agree. Randomness isn't okay (unless it's Hero, come on guys, he's midtier. don't BAN a MIDTIER!) Thats why stage hazards should be off. And some where there's still technically stage hazards can be banned. But a wall or a slant? Really? Cutting down the stage list to purely flat stages isn't fun, its boring. Slants and Walls add more combo potential to EVERYONE if you use them correctly. Will it be hard to get used to? Yes, but is how the characters bounce off a wall RANDOM? No!
Your entire video is just "If it's not like battlefield with minimal ledges, no slants, and just a few platforms, then it's banned. If it is just like battlefield, then it's banned."
This is why the DLC stages are built like that. That's a shame, they feel incredibly boring except for spiral mountain so far _because there's only so much you can do with "platform, a few smaller platforms, and some kind of gimmick that can easily be toggled off."_ And I'm a fan of all three series. Fuckin' sucks.
Nedoxu Still, it’s necessary for competitive play. A lot of stages are super fun with friends and casual play, but of course the more complex the easier it is to exploit a stage for an unfair advantage. Nintendo knows the competitive scene has always been a big thing for smash, they’ve learned since Brawl. So of course new DLC stages will be made fit for competitive play.
@@derelictgbdavidlovo107 What makes exploiting stage design for an advantage "unfair"? I think it's more interesting if different strategies work on different stages. Why rule out any differences that you have to actually play around?
Ditocoaf a lot of “strategies” are cheap and don’t actually require any skill. It makes things really boring to watch and diminishes the experience entirely. Is it really that surprising that people want to watch skilled players PLAY the game rather than run around in circles and have a guaranteed win within the first 20 seconds?
One time I was playing casually with people who do tournaments and they wouldn't let us use banned stages. Which sucks because I love the Isle Delfino one so much. They rendered it so beautifully and i feel so nostalgic seeing it. I also love the Wario Ware Inc one because of the mini games, Part of the reason stages are like this are to give variety and challenge, but I can see why in a competitive setting this wouldn't work.
A thing you forgot about Castle Siege is the wall in the foreground on the right side, which can block the view of offstage interactions. I believe that is the main reason why it's usually banned.
@@frosslad26 ps2 is most often banned for being too similar to ps1 , so i guess , maybe , idn. But that doesn't change or invalidetthe argument presented , ps1 is legal castle siege sould be legal too. Wario ware too imo , all the stage on our current stage list heavily favors campers and if heavys or rushed down character are mostly bad it's because of that , a stage list shouldn't favor a playstyle over another , and should have stage that advantage/disadvantage everyone , smaller stage and stage with slants are good to counter camper or character that rellies too much on tech chase this is why it makes a good COUNTERpick , even walls i could argue aren't bad , walltech is basically the same as groundtech , if you don't you're punished if you do you can still get punished or be saved , it allows rushed down character and heavys to have more combo potential , it also advantage the camper that this comunity seems to like so much so why isn't it legal ?
I like slants. Slants make things a little less boring. There's nothing wrong with stages affecting gameplay as long as they affect it in a good way, in a way that's the same for both players and in a way that isn't random.
If Kalos is legal, warioware, yoshi's island and/or castle siege should be legal too. If projectile characters get their good stage, heavies should get a counterpick that gives them an advantage too, especially in their shittier matchups which tend to be campers. For balancing reasons, warioware should be legal. While stage bans seem to exist to save camping from being worse, our current list still favours campers and no playstyle should be praised over another. A stage list should do whatever it can to give everyone in the game a bit of fun.
@@PhaxtolgiaLegacy that's the least of your worries as it only does it on the right side at predictable timings and spacing. The worst thing about Castle Siege is the height differential.
the problem is that seige is INCREDIBLY tiny (and complety invalidates some characters like bjr) and the blastzones on warioware make it a walkoff. they wouldnt help heavies and would just make the game more boring
We need more slants. It helps add some dynamic to certain matchups, particularly for characters with projectiles. Why are we trying to only play on stages that are all so very similar? The lack of variety in stage lists is one of the biggest contributors to the character tiers in this game. As it is now, it nearly always benefits characters who excel at flat stages and larger stages/far blast zones. Warioware would definitely be a welcome addition for a smaller stage. Kongo Jungle 64, Halberd or Lylat would be nice to break the mold of flat-bottom stages.
Slants mess up things like tech chases, jab locks, projectiles, moves that will hit or not, landing aerials etc. It's much harder to have full control of what will happen when slants are on the line
I'd love to see more slant stages become legal like Castle Siege and Mementos. I don't see the issue with slants at all. I mean, they're an issue, but that's the point. They're for counterpicks. Battlefield is good for ladder combos, FD is good for projectiles, Kalos is good for ledge-trapping, etc. The only competively-viable slanted stage I don't like is Yoshi's Island Brawl. It's just lumpy Smashville to me and feels really awkward, but maybe that's what gives it merit as an option.
@@Mattroid99 then get good at it? Like, there will always be obstacles making things harder, so why are you stopping at slants? Remove platforms too because it makes some combos harder, remove the floor aswell because it makes dying harder, y'know what, just remove the whole game because you can't lose if you've never played. It's all so dumb
@@lilyofluck371 It doesn't make things harder, it makes them inconsistent. And fun fact most high level/top players were the ones pushing for Lylat to be banned the most Plus by that logic, why even banning stages? Let's fucking play competitively on Temple and make every match a 1v1 Sonic ditto because no one else can catch him up once he gets a small lead, if you think that's stupid get good with it. Do you see how silly your argument is?
@@zoramarslink5788 for big blue he says the ground tilts and the floor drags you a minor slant is enough of a reason too ban a stage in the competitive smash community eyes
Dreamcast Soup congrats you’re a normal person, don’t try to understand it, it’ll honestly just make you go “and what use does this information grant me?”
True, except the 2d stages are still banned. There are a couple unfixed glitches that have to do with 2d mode, and I believe the Z axis is basically removed which can cause some issues.
Same goes for small stages. Like yes, Wario Ware and Castle Siege are small, but at least people who play non-campy characters want to add stage diversity instead of just calling to ban Kalos and Stadium 2.
That's funny how the super happy tree stage is actually MORE viable with hazzards on since the clouds will dissapear after a while plus those rando platform saves are hilariously hype
i might just not understand all the specifics, but a lot of these sound like "these things alter how the game plays and i don't want to deal with that", like i get the camping and time out friendly stages being banned, but can't you just learn which moves work better on slants? rather than just banning them because the moves you know don't work as well on them.
Better yet, in organized tournaments set up some kind of actual penalty for using time-outs. If your 'strategy' involves not playing and keeping others from playing that just sounds like Traveling in Basketball.
honestly the minor ones arnt too much of an issue. having to work your spacing slightly different. okay. sure but i think some of the more sever slants should stay out simply because shorter characters could abuse the hell out of em.
@@nunote2362 not exactly. but thinks like the slant on yoshi island basically makes it were everything hsort from up tilt just cant work. and vice versa for the high ground. those just arnt fun and to much work ((look at Venom. that map is probly THE least fun to play and its 95% slants and a single wall)) like slants like on lylate cruise ((specialy since it no longer rocks back and forth)) and even the ones on DK and even the hyule castle map arnt that bad ((disregarding the other issues that ruin it))
Who are you referring to with "we"? You know there's not something like a global stagelist and some of the stages like Yoshi's Island you considered banned are still used a lot?
The comments section being lit ablaze with “why ban the battlefield clones” provides a pretty valid argument for you just not putting in enough effort to explain this shit.
The crazy thing is that he's wrong about a lot of them too, because the blast zone distance plays a huge part in things like Yoshi's Island vs Battlefield or PS1 vs PS2. It's fucking stupid.
I dont get it, why are Huge Stages that give campy characters an advantage like Kalos fine but small stages that give slow characters an advangate (Warioware, Castle siege) bad? Slants already exist in competitive so that cant possibly be it
@@aqualacerta3961 Exactly. Why else would timescamming be a legitimate strategy? If a match ever uses the full 7-8 minutes then there is a serious issue. It just boggles my mind that it is considered okay to just not punish such toxic deliberately evasive for the sake of being evasive behavior.
"Yoshi melee is just another clone with battlefield. Too similar." really? Small slants, Wall stage, slightly bigger than battlefield with smaller blast zones. All of those sound similar enough to be the same thing? No. That's like saying every stage is too similar to FD, ban every stage.
Competitive stage selection: do you want 0, 1, 2 or 3 platforms on your final destination. I get that it is to do with shenanigans in the game, but the lack of diversity is a big turn off for me.
I personally think the stages various hazards and walls and edges add a layer of excitement to the game. It’s more fun to watch someone jump and duck and flee while fighting than just watching two people run forward and punch each other.
@@YaBoiBrendo The issue with that is that it detracts from the pure skill environment that competitive Smash tries to create. These stages are a lot of fun casually but in competitive play, they mitigate a lot of the technicality and are a bit janky to play on. They’re fun but playing them competitively would be missing the point of competitive smash.
A big part of the problem is that for some reason stages like Dreamland, Yohsis, and Fountain are banned, even though they are actually pretty different from battlefield.
@@mccookies3664 adapting is a skill in an of itself, if a slant throws your enemy in an unexpected angle how you react is a part of how skilled you are
9:30 "Nobody should be able to retreat to a position and be in a more advantageous position than before" wut Isn't that the whole damn point of a tactical retreat? Except for Melee? Why?
Slants can break mechanics and increases disadvantages of characters. Moving platforms increases cheesiness and advantages of characters. I'd say both would work in the category of Countrpicks. *Rainbow is good:* With both sides being different but carrying advantages on each side: -One with a slant and an advantage for projectile users, as well as a small portion of the stage allowing sharking to give an opportunity for some characters (Ex. Zelda) with weaker options on ledge. -One with a wall and an advantage towards infighters, increases combo potential, and in time and a strong enough move, untechables will come into play as the stage is small enough for people to kill. Also includes a way of approaching platform camping. *Warioware is good:* Man imagine dying super early, haHaa. Hey who's that character? *Fountain of Dreams is good:* I would say the only way it could end up working out as a choice in time if it were to be considered as a Hazards On choice. (In Mexico theyve included T&C and Smashville as Hazards On). The sinking/rising platforms then go from a Projectile/Aeriel/Tilt heaven, to a Grounded/Smash Attack dream. *Lylat is good:* this is more biased based, with the reasons given, it would fall under the concept of CP moreso than a ban. While I can understand some jank, most of these have been settled as more than just a Lylat only issue. Recoveries can still be a bit bad, I can agree with that. *Yoshi's is Good:* Another stage that would be more appropriate with a Hazards On. The advantage would be Randall. However the disadvantage is the food that spawns with the FlyGuys. I always felt that this was an under -addressed issue and more of a mistake made when making hazardless stages (Similar to how FoD platforms don't move, or Smashville plat doesn't move, Randall disappearing, but T&C platforms move). I'm sure if the community is vocal enough about these types of things as a whole. Im sure in a future patch we could see a change being made.
Seiko G. 200% agree. Smash ultimate is easily the most conservative game yet with rule set. Ultimate players complain way too much about junky disadvantage. It's not even remotely that bad. Even melee today is getting experimental so I don't want to say that it has to do with living in a whiny ass society, but ultimate, ..... It's honestly a whiny ass fucking society. Like, the majority that agreed on our current rule set banning lylat, ww and yoshi's are such crybabys. Y'all make lyrics on a bad nu metal song sound like Sugar by brockhampton.
There is more nuance to WarioWare being banned than just ‘you die early’. If you can die _so_ early that it becomes grossly disproportionately favourable for characters that have high base knockback and efficient mid-percent kill moves then it’s difficult to justify even as a counterpick. Also, Randall is not remotely a universal positive. It’s impossible for players to realistically track his position through a match and plan for it, so he’s functionally a random stage element. For the impact he can have in a match that’s wholly unacceptable.
@@ShawFujikawa yeah randall is fun , sometimes he save you and most of the time he doesn't , there's nothing wrong with it ,+ he's legal in melee , next
@Adam Thompson You're accusing me of being irrelevent when this conversation isn't even about Melee? If you want to talk about legality, consider this - the Japanese Smash Ult scene will go through the trouble of reenabling hazards if they want to pick Smashville or Town and City because they agree the moving platforms add something to gameplay. They DON'T do this for Yoshi's Story.
Its really more about not wanting to go on the same stage because if your character is shit on battle field and u ban 2 battlefield like stages then you are still stuck playing on battlefield. I think the stages should not be banned but should be lumped into category called battlefield. Also if a stage is different enough where it can completely invalidate some characters or make others broken then it should be banned
@Ben Passlow i will always choose character variety over stage variety if my character sucks on triplats and big stages and i only have enough bans for triplats im being forced to pick up a secondary legalising more stages makes low tiers much worse and top tiers much better
@Ben Passlow also are you talkinv about fox mirrors in ultimate where there is only 1 good fox player you clearly dont watch competitive ultimate. How can you judge an entire competitive scene based on a meme that doesnt even aply too this game
Huh, it's almost like there's this thing called a middle ground where there's enough differences to increase variety, but those differences aren't so extreme that it creates extreme imbalances.
the just ban it argument is wrong though. if you are forced to use a ban because a stage is unplayable or shouldnt be legal in the first place you then cant ban a legal, but unfavourable stage
@@gazzzzaaa But Wario Ware and Castle Siege aren't unplayable, unlike Pirate Ship. He never comes up with any reason to ban them other than personally disliking them, in which case yes, you can just ban it.
@Heavy Metal Collector He means within the context of competitive play. And don't be absurd; just because people want to play the game more seriously doesn't at all mean they're killing it. I say this as a more casually-sided player, to boot.
@Heavy Metal Collector You dumbass just like the other guy said it's for competitive play so if you can use "any stage" they can just pick a huge stage and run away once they got one kill till time runs man your a casual.
Yoshi's story has walls going down from the ledges making it different enough from battlefield imo. Characters with wall jumps and clings have more mixups off stage and characters who can normally go under the stage and recover to the other ledge no longer have that option. It might not be good for a starter but maybe a counterpick?
I think Warioland should be used for tiebreaker/draw matches, since the opponents are clearly extremely close in skill and they already played a bit, so the fact the stage is less forgiving then most makes it a good tiebreak.
Old comment, but that makes it an awful tie break (And is a concept that already doesn't exist) Because of how swingy it is anyone can win by just making one correct decision and kill you at 30, is the opposite of consistency. Exactly because their skill level is on par the stage shouldn't be factoring heavily in the outcome
@@annthom5301 yoshi's story the walls go down into the blast zone, which creates interesting tech and deep edge guard possibilities. Generally on battlefield the ability to wall jump isnt practical except in the rare case of saving a recovery that otherwise would have been juuuuust short of making it
A lot of people see slants as a no-go for competetive play. they sometimes do some wonky stuff when you get launched into them, depending on the DI. It rarely happened to me, but I can see why one might see this as a reason to ban it. Unfortunately this shrinks the pool of stages significantly.
I kind of miss how in melee even without those aspects Yoshi's, FoD, and Dreamland were different due to variations in stage size and blast zones. So even if it was a triplatform stage, the stages were actually quite different in how things played out.
That's not his fault though. That is the consensus for all US tournaments for some reason. Japan has hazards on in stages but I guess the US is too lazy. A hazards toggle would really fix everything.
AngryNerds100 how is it not his fault? he’s the one that made the video. he understands that there are 2 different versions of almost every stage. it might be the consensus for TO’s in the US but who’s saying it is for all of the players? i definitely disagree (obviously.) this is just a poorly thought out video and has nothing to do with a hazards toggle.
Reminder to everyone that "banned in tournaments" does not mean "unsuitable for even people who enjoy a competitive playstyle". Quite a few of them you'll still see in "friendlies" very often. That's why you'll still often see stages like Peach's Castle Melee in competitive-focused fan projects, for instance. There has to be a limited legal stage list to speed up the tourney process. Every single stage that is currently legal in every single Smash game is in Ultimate, but if all of them were used, stage striking would take *forever,* not to mention counterpicking would be a spaghetti-tangled mess. Not to mention that there is *money on the line* in tournaments. Tiny differences which wouldn't even be noticeable in most average matches between competitive players can make a world of difference when the combatants are being purely pragmatic. (Don't believe me? Look at the *single match* which got the once-legal Kongo Jungle 64 banned in Melee: ua-cam.com/video/mTNaAUJZz5k/v-deo.html That disaster *would not have happened* if they were playing outside of that actually-high-stakes setting.) If someone *insists* on using the legal stage list only even in friendly matches, chances are they don't actually know what they're doing and are just wearing it like a bear skin thinking it'll give them strength or something. And if you *don't* play competitively, then it makes even *less* difference. Half the purpose of items is to pressure players into moving even on super-camp-heavy stages like Temple. (I personally at least turn Food on Low when playing friendly matches for this reason.) (P.S. The "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" meme is especially false because, even and especially in Melee, Final Destination is *the absolute last stage you'd want to be playing on* if you were Fox, especially if going up against a character who actually does excel on it like Marth or Jigglypuff. FD is the stage you pick when you want to *kill* Fox, not when you want to *be* Fox.)
Baffle Blend thank you, thank you so fucking much. All these comments are just “so if I understand competitive smash stupid and boring >:( they can’t even adapt to anything”. These people are clearly clueless
Add Wario Ware so slow heavies have more of a chance to win, small stages help those who are slow and powerful, (Incineroar), Why do we ban this level? Because you die too fast? But wouldn't that help speed up a tournament? Don't we want all characters to be viable? Why are we ok with large stages that help campers and zoners? Wouldn't Wario Ware also benefit someone facing a character that needs space to zone? Also it could help weak characters that struggle to kill, like Sheik, this stage and Castle Seige can help a lot of characters that struggle on the current stages,
"you die too quickly" sounds like he has never heard of a glass cannon before. it just calls for different tactics, but i guess that is too much to ask for
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but stage bans in tournament are meant to be a tactical thing meant to maximize your character's potential while minimizing your opponent's, right? In melee a Fox would ban FD against a Marth because that stage favors Marth so heavily. Being forced to use a ban on a stage like warioware, which is bad for every character, limits your ability to prevent your opponent from taking you to a stage where you are at much more of a disadvantage. Moreover, if every character wants to ban warioware in every matchup, why not globally ban it to keep competitive play more interesting? One of the most important parts of balancing a competitive game is preventing one decision to be universally the best choice. I fully support the ban on warioware.
But warioware isnt bad for everyone. Someone good at killing off the sides or a slow character would love warioware. It is comparable to a ganon main always having ps2 and kalos banned to prevent getting camped out by projectiles
Technically, Battlefield is a clone of Dreamland
The hell, it actually is
is it tho? battlefield is in smash 64.
@@antondeak9580 True, but it's only accessable in single player
@@gavinkeith4708 but there have been 64 tourneys where fd and dz are hacked in and legal
@@antondeak9580 No way man, that's Duel Zone! (I'm not being serious, but I remember being so confused when I saw the name Duel Zone before realizing that's what it was)
forgot one stage, and it has every problem you mentioned: walls everywhere, water, sloped floor, a ceiling, and ledge for soap and shampoo... It's no wonder that the shower is banned from competitive play, and most smashers don't even play is casually.
This is so underrated. Why doesn’t it have more likes? Here, take mine
great delivery but stale material
like, come on, i'm not trying to be defensive here, but the whole smash players don't take shower joke is getting really old
@@Jackie_burnp it's not a joke though it's actually a problem
Are you talking about great cave, because i hate the stage
@@palpatinerocks3260 No Its not Great cave offensive. I was thinking it was the one with Palutena's guidence and then i realized it's literally a shower. He was making a joke.
Clearly, he missed the best stage: Great Cave Offensive
Ah yes, a fellow enlightened one.
Just turn the timer off or you may never reach each other in time.
I have a game type called Hell which is just Great Cave Offensive on unlimited time.
I think they banned it because of its tiny blast zones
tymandude 1 no thanks
It's part one lol
I think we should just ban all stages that have OSHA violations
I agree!
Oh. asterisk REALIZES ALL STAGES WOULD BE BANNED asterisk. wait noooo.
Too many polygons for that
@@robloxbob4149 Boxing Ring is Super Legal, Let's Go!
@@EngineerLume Cool.
yoshi’s melee is 100% different than battlefield, having a place to tech jump and wall jump off of completely changes the offstage encounters of the stage, and deserves to be in the counterpick category of a competitive ruleset
As far as I'm aware it IS part of most competitive rulesets. It certainly is in the UK!
@@SpeedfreakUK Ive never played a ruleset that had Story as a starter
not only that but it also has the lowest ceiling for a tri plat, and the bottom platforms are higher than battlefield completely changing combo games for some characters. i would take bowser and palu to battlefield but i would NOT take them to Yoshis thats for sure.
Balents I also think its important to note that the platforms cover way more of the main stage (I think its because the main stage is smaller, but I’m not certain) I’m not certain how it effects most of the fighters but it can be a big difference.
Esam, best and most knowledgeable pika player in the world, has said before that battlefield is Pikachu's least preferable stage, but you look at pika on yoshi's and his offstage game is entirely different and way better than it already is.
"complains about battlefield clones, bans any stage that isn't a battlefield clone"
lylat and smashville and fd are definitely all battlefield clones yup 100%
@@mae_lia battlefield without top platform and battlefield without platforms
@@zeno1099 yeah you definitely know what clone means.
"Guys this stage is just like battlefield but with major differences, it's a clone." You're not just a clown, you're the entire circus
@@mae_lia bro it's a joke have you seriously never heard that
@@zeno1099 I haven't I apologise, I'm too used to people not having the sense to know what good legal stages are. (Also I like just woke up lol) again sorry lmao
tl;dr:
it's not a flat floating platform with smaller flat floating platforms on top of it
Pretty much yeah
Honestly competitive players should embrace the new gameplay opportunities, combo routes, and options that are made possible by slants and small walls
Also SOME walk offs are perfectly fine to play on, the only reason they're banned is because they're walk offs and if you're opponent FUCKS UP AND GETS TOO CLOSE TO THE THING THAT KILLS YOU AT THE EDGE they could die for it
Y'know, that thing that's common sense to most players that are skilled enough to not need to cheese their opponents? That every other stage has since getting too close to the blast zone is always a threat?
@@temporalCasterthe “problem” is that some characters don’t have projectiles that deal damage so they have to approach you, meaning you can just stand next to the blast zone, grab them and use back throw.
Except that’s not even true because attacks beat grabs so you can just use a moving attack like most dash attacks or Warios bike to counter that strategy.
@@algotkristoffersson15
Isn't that the point of a counter pick stage though? To give people stages that are less balanced so they can adjust their matchups
"...I really can't see much justification for why this stage should be legal"
Uh, Yoshi's Story IS pretty widely legal. It's occasionally not but of the stages that aren't consistently legal, Yoshi's is the least banned stage.
Yoshi's Island Brawl is too and he talked about it like it wasn't.
"The random factor is the main reason for ban"
Hero: *laugh in the distance*
“You can die at stupidly early percents for minor mistakes”
*he says as hero throws a wack*
to be fair, everyone dies at stupidly early percents for minor mistakes.
@@TheUltimateRare Exactly. That's why i don't see why that's a valid reason to ban wario ware. Isn't having quicker matches a good thing? And if you actually look at the stage measurements it's really not much shorter than some legal stages
@@BlueBoboDoo100 i guess they just don't like close blast zones or something. They'll have to think about it among themselves, my opinion won't really matter, I only play smash to mess around and destroy players, but not for 1v1 vs humans or serious events.
@@BlueBoboDoo100 I think they ban WarioWare because of it's close blast zones. Characters like Ganondorf would be stupidly overpowered on those stages and they would always be picked or counter picked, so having them banned allows for equal fights.
@@shizustrian that's precisely why we ban stages with close blast zones. And the Ganon example was spot-on. Also, Mac and Falcon can do really stupid shit on WarioWare. Like....REALLY stupid shit.
-Makes stage restrictions so incredibly restrictive that basically only Battlefield clones or flat platforms are legal.
-Complains about all the legal stages being Battlefield clones or flat platforms.
Aikko77 Go look at Project M or Rivals of Aether for a great example of what people think a good stage list for competitive play looks like
Hypocrites.
It's easy to argue against a strawman.
But there are many ways to arrange the platforms to make it interesting; without adding walls, ceilings, walk-offs and slants.
the thing is for competitive specifically. theirs only so many ways to make a stage fair without adding in any cheese strats like camping and running away.
this locks a stage into not being too big or too small. flat and with 0-4 or so platforms. anymore platforms and you get too big see"big battlefield" any unique features add walls ceilings and cheese.
so in a video discussing competitive fights from a competitive player. your going to exclude just about everything. and if you make a state a little unsymmetrical you gotta be careful not to just make a stage where 1 side is better than the other else its jsut an advantage fest. ok so we run out of ways to move platforms around lets add a second ground area but symmetrically. sure but that again either makes the stage too big or makes the second areas too small.
just because he lists a stage as not good or banned doesnt mean its a bad stage or that any of us are wrong for lking it. the problem is just if it can go wrong and ruin a match...it will because competitive players dont play to have fun they play to win. sure fun is important but if something unfun makes it into a match and that wins thats what people are going to do. this leads to a lot of banning and controlling of the rules.
In fact only Yoshi's Story is a bit similar to battlefield in all the legal stages. And even tho it has some differences like a wall on his sides, different blastzones and curved ledges which changes everything.
All other BF-likes are banned. All other legal stages are not BF-like.
"I'm going to be as objective as possible"
"Personally for me I think this stage--"
Yeah, very biased
When did he say that?
2:28 "Also keep in mind this is just my opinion, but i will try to argue in a *mostly* objective way". He never tried to be as objective as possible.
Hes trying but of course hes bias and subjective andnthis is based on what he thinks. Video games aren't a science and hes not perfect by any means.
@@dramotarker1352 It was a hyperbolic quote. But also, right there, he said it right there. In _your_ quote. Ta da.
We're on the same page. Don't worry.
@@notswush Yeah of course.
But here I was hoping he was gonna explain why _tournaments_ ban it, not why he hates a stage. Like idgaf if this guy hates walkoffs and mentions it 20 times, and when he explained why walkoff stages were banned in tournatments, that's what I wanted to hear! Everything else? Nah. Because he's not a tournament.
I haven't heard this much dislike for slants since my grandpa's Vietnam stories
underrated comment oh my god
Holy shit! 😂
Dang XD
It's not the hate that is striking, it's the lack of justification. You can tell this guy gets his opinions from reddit circlejerking.
@@sethb1629 SJW alert!! No fun and jokes allowed, this has been quarantined as a safe space!!
7:34 ARE WE JUST GONNA IGNORE THAT BAYONETTA CPU ENDING YOUR LIFE
Nah I saw it
he's little mac what do you expect? It did look cool though.
Nice PFP, Primarina is really overhated
Saxon Eyles Ult kids??? I started playing smash with brawl...
She even taunted him by balancing faboulously in the ledge
16:10
As a professional casual player, I can confirm that sidescrolling stages are a pain in the ass no matter what.
At least it's fun to cheese CPU's in spirit battles and whatnot.
Professional calsual
I like to turn on all Mario related items for mushroomy kingdom.
Pro casual here.
Can we talk about how we should be able to turn hazards on and off from the stage selection screen so that FoD can be legal and smashville can have the cool moving platform?
Well, FoD would still be banned.
Even aside from being a battlefield clone, the framedrops are why it's banned.
It was banned for the same reason in Melee doubles.
I feel like Smashville wouldn't become legal with hazards necessarily either, since the platform did promote camping and really fucking degenerate early kills.
I don’t know why but I want ps with hazards
Better idea. Make a ruleset where the stage selection is random. Make the only stage that can be chosen at random the desired stage. Create a ruleset for each stage.
KINGOFDASLIPPYS Is being a battlefield clone a bad thing? Layout’s a clone but the music? and visuals?
While i dont think haz on/off combos will happen, i still like to argue that haz on restricted stage tourneys could happen if FoD gets patched... albeit with a small stage list by comparison.
I liked Yoshi's Island. The slants weren't super unbearable. It was a bright and colorful stage.
It looks great imo, and I love how the seasons change. I’m disappointed that it gets so much hate.
@@SuperFroakie82 It gets hate because "pro" players can't adapt to anything that isn't a flat platform.
gamrage my only small problem with the stage is that quite a few characters can’t hit the platform the center with attacks that would normally reach it.
Oh yeah and occasionally Lucario’s up b just yeets you into the blast zone if you land on the stage.
@@catcherj1080 I see. I main Lucina so I didn't notice. I also secondary Inkling so I would use different options on the platform.
gamrage yeah it’s just something you have to remember with certain characters. Like Joker almost reaches and it looks like he could reach but it falls just short so, you just have to keep it in mind. I still think it’s fine as a stage.
(3:50) Final Destination has the issue with being all flat, that it gives projective players the benefit. They can cover the ground with projectiles, and don't give the opponent multiple paths to take. It's a stage with very minimal flanking posiblities.
Which makes it a good counterpick stage.
@@charKT-7461 it also gives the advantage to specific characters, which I thought was the whole reason multiple stages got banned in multiple games (like most Brawl stages, for example)
@@temporalCaster it gives advantages to characters who doesn't rely on platforms if their opponent does. For example, platforms aren't a big part in Bowser's gameplay, but they are a HUGE factor in Mario's.
It's definitely more advantageous for projectile characters. But, Battlefield is better for ladder-combo characters, so I think having the option is warranted.
@@RacingSnails64except- it isn't. While platforms help get in, they're not necessary for most characters to get in if they know how, plus it's harder to get in on zoners on other stages. Take smashville, one center platform over the stage. If the zoner stands under that, you can no longer approach from above while they cover the ground, giving you even less options than FD. FD is not as good for zoners as it is for characters with strong advantage states with good juggling and ledgetrapping. No plats makes it harder to land, normally forcing you back to ledge where you can't get off since every option can be reacted to except jump, but jump puts you right back in a position to be juggled. Someone like Chrom gets much more of a boost from FD than a character like Young Link would, despite Chrom losing some combo routes
“Yoshi’s story is pretty much just a battlefield clone”
“FoD is a battlefield clone with different blastzones”
Uhhh so yoshi’s doesn’t? YS has a ton of differences with battlefield, the blastzones are smaller, it has walls and slants, and the platforms are longer and are positioned differently. Some matchups are way different on YS than on BF, which can’t be said about DL or hazardless FoD.
Yeah this stage is a nightmare for some characters that like battlefield I dont understand why he thought the stages were similar
also he doesnt talk much about the walls of yoshi's and fountain being much different either
Theres no reason to play on yoshis without randall (sad moment)
“It’s a tri plat” even though the changes make it play very differently
Yeah, this is a bad video tbh
I'd say this is mostly a good way to explain stage legality to someone out of the loop, but I do see a couple of problems with this video that would keep me from recommending it. For example, certain aspects being dismissed as simply bad without much or any elaboration, such as small stage size (we have legal stages that are a bit on the big side, so is that really such a terrible flaw for Castle Siege to be slightly on the small side, for instance?) or sharking and why that would be a problem. Anyone who doesn't see the "obviousness" of why sharking would be bad will just be left confused, so it's probably worth touching on that.
I also can't help but feel that about halfway into the video, there is a bit of a tonal shift from analysis and logical explanations as to why certain stages are or aren't widely banned, to you simply summarising how you personally feel about these stages. It strays a bit from the intended topic of the video as I can't imagine this is entirely intentional. It also sometimes takes away from the actual analysis, like Lylat Cruise apparently being too similar to other tri-platform stages. Maybe it's just me, but it really doesn't look that samey to me.
Plus the low-effort vibe from the bad grammar in the transition images combined with the parts where he just complains about the stage make this vid feel more whiny than informative.
Yeah, the video is titled as an analysis but it definitely comes off more like an opinion piece to me. I don’t mind hearing opinions, but I’d have preferred to watch what I came for.
"There are too many pieces of unconnected land here" regarding Saffron City.
I'm not saying Saffron City should be a legal stage, but why is it bad to have too many pieces of unconnected land? How many is too many?
As someone out of the loop, I don't understand why slants are a problem outside of "I don't like them"
Not to mention, for the majority as you said, he stopped stating which ones were legal and not legal, and just started ranting about the stages that weren't ideal, and what worked.
Slants: *exists*
Rekzius: what an incovenience
Lylat Cruise: *exists*
Rekzius: *NOW THAT'S AN AVENGERS LEVEL THREAT*
“This is list is objective”
“I don’t like slants”
MAKE UP YOUR MIND REKZIUS
Well yes, but actually yes
"You can die stupidly early for making a single mistake"
Is playing hero in the clip
it also perfectly describes wobbling, which has been legal for years
@Adam Thompson They don't win tourneys because they are bad, but that does not be they cannot kill extremely early, especially against a more casual player who doesn't know how to properly avoid a lot of Hero's jank moves.
@@Underworlder5 sure as hell shouldnt be
@@walkerschlott4518 Or magic burst/kaboom which you literally can't avoid sometimes lol
Yeah and at that moment I exited fullscreen put a dislike on this video, read your comment and wrote this.
I wish Smashville went through seasons so it wasn’t so boring to look at. I love the layout though.
Yeah like in Mario Kart's AC stage, it could be a random season
AquamarineDust Because like we have two legal stages with the exact same aesthetic and it sucks
@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote true, they could have also gone with something like the museum (have the four sections be random or morphing) or maybe inside Tom Nooks store
AquamarineDust oh that sounds cool, like a different background each time with non distracting elements
@@HaydenTheEeeeeeeeevilEukaryote yup 😄
Most stages have slants. Slants "changing how the gameplay fundamentally works" is PART of how the gameplay fundamentally works.
Same with blast zones being closer in some stages than others -- it's a thing that you play around. Having to play differently on different stages is a feature, not a bug.
"Bishops can attack from further than one square away, which really messes with how the game works. And the knight's diagonal move is janky. Queens and rooks have similar problems to the bishop, and can ruin a good en-passant strategy. Distance attacks in general tend to interfere with the core of chess, which is pawns and kings."
@@Ditocoaf Pfffft, yeah, a competitive Smash player's ideal version of chess would literally be checkers lmao. Every piece just constantly moves the same way every time. Different mechanics to keep track of fundamentally changes how you have to think in the middle of a match, so every piece should just jump diagonally one square. The rook can just move to the other end of the board in one move? How op! And don't get me started on castling! Like could you not just camp in the corner of the board behind a bunch of pieces?? What an unbalanced gimmick! Speaking of unbalanced gimmicks, uhg the knight! Up two and over one? Such a gimmicky way to move that's just unfun and unfair to fight verse, ban the knight! And the queen is way too op!! Ban the queen!!
@@pinkie723Smash players don't bother to learn matchups or how to play against characters, evident by how they tried to ban Hero, Min Min and now Steve.
@@opadripIn fairness, Steve literally creates platforms in a platform fighting game. He absolutely breaks the game
@@charliekelly735he’s overpowered
Alright first stage here we go!
"Battlefeild"
Uh oh
Metalfield. Oh no.....
Yeah why’d he say metal field
metal field
Yoshi's island is legal, yet you act as if it's not.
that is because it should not be legal
@@bustylesbian Yet it _is_ legal, and viable, across all tournaments
Island has been banned at the last 5 Super majors
And I think Lylat Cruise is legal too, don't understand why he act as it isn't...
@@Ragnasorcerer
Two reasons:
1. Slants
Or
2. Too similar to Battlefield
Calling Yoshi's Story a battlefield clone is like calling Luigi a Mario clone. It plays completely different, smaller base platform, different tri plat placements, much smaller blast zones, and a wall on the edge. There is no justification for potentially banning it
Honestly no stage should be banned by default, with only people taking turns baning stages befor each game
He literally said it's not MUCH different
In ultimate the differences are so miniscule that they are negligible
@@algotkristoffersson15with how many stages there are that would be actually insane. Have you ever been to a tournament? They need to stay on schedule lol
"Battlefeild"
I before e, my dude, i before e
You're right, that's wEIrd.
Damn it, why language have to be hard.
I wish that was actually a viable rule. Way too many damn exceptions
Battle-failed
Except after c
... and “their”
fuck English man
>doesn’t mention the fact that kongo jungle’s main platform is semisolid, meaning recovery is easy and sharking is possible
I mean to be fair, "sharking" isn't even a valid reason anymore.
Either Wuhu Island or Skyloft has no reason not to be a counterpick. This isn't Brawl where Meta Knight can camp under the stage indefinitely anymore and abuse ledge invincibility to negate punishes.
I disagree. Characters that can shark under the stage with no punishment force the other player (who isn’t camping) to either approach them from underneath (which is either an easy gimp, or free stage control) or avoid them altogether.
The greatest example I can give is meta knight/jigglypuff vs any character with poor air mobility or bad recoveries on Skyloft. It means that the meta is now centralized around ONE strategy (that being sharking on Skyloft for easy kills), which invalidates any other strategy.
MySmashCorner made a good video a couple (years?) back on this, and it still holds today. If you would like to see someone explain it better than me, you should watch it.
EDIT: Although ledge invincibility is no longer abusable, there are still far too many problems that shift the meta too far towards one specific strat.
ledge regrab mechanics in this game make it so that sharking really isnt a viable option when compared to brawl. also, meta knight isnt a problem in this game. that was the #1 reason for sharking being so annoying in brawl.
@@Robbie_Haruna sharking isn't the only reason why wuhu is banned. The platforms get way too close to the blast zones, not as much as walk-offs, but enough to get it banned. also slants for both of them but I really don't care about that.
@@Robbie_Haruna Actually, it kinda does. Stages that you can pass through completely invalidate characters who rely on the wall or slant to get back up, such as Ness and Lucas, who bounce upwards towards ledge on solid stages, but not on stages like Wuhu or Skyloft. That's kinda why a lot of stages should have a solid board, so they have something to guide their up-B. With Lucina for example, if you are anywhere below ledge, you will grip, but you have to be much more specific with where you up B less you just straight up miss the ledge.
No one:
Rock in Kongo Falls: *Imma bout to end this stage's whole career*
"Bluh, we need less diverse stages."
"Bluh, we need more diverse stages."
4:50 another reason it’s banned is the way the stage interacts with the player, the stage itself is semi-solid, meaning you can jump through it, now this doesn’t sound bad on paper, but because of this a large part of the cast just doesn’t grab the ledge even when they should have. The game just can’t tell between you trying to jump through, or trying to grab ledge, and it often defaults to trying to jump through
Let me save 26 minutes of your time:
Small stages are small: Banned. Asymmetrical stages are asymmetrical: Banned. All tri-plats are just battlefield clones: Banned. Any stage that slightly allows sharking is banned. Why? No idea, it's not explained. And don't forget: If the stage has any slant, it's banned.
Explain this to me: In what world is it better to have such a small stage list when you can just add more stages and allow more bans? We need smaller stages on the stage list, the current common lists include a lot of big stages that encourage more defensive play, and while there is nothing wrong with that, some variety wouldn't hurt either. Lylat is good. The Yoshi stages are good too. Warioware may be a bit too much but I personally think it's fine. Siege is good too, asymmetrical layouts aren't inherently bad, the ones seriously discussed for competitive play don't give a huge advantage to either player, so what's the problem? Are we just banning stages because they're different and people don't want to learn new things, or maybe because we want our characters to do better? Your hatred of slants definitely seems like it.
Yes, these stages make certain characters stronger than others. That's the literal point of a counterpick. Should Melee players remove Dreamland from the stage list bc Jigglypuff has an advantage in it?
While on the topic of Melee, if people can handle the PS1 hazards and small blastzones on Yoshi's, you can handle the stage in Ultimate, they increased the blastzones to the point where they're almost identical to Town and City's.
I guess what I'm trying to say is: This community needs to stop acting like babies. I know how fragile Smash is as a competitive game, but the overly conservative stage list is taking it too far. We have a hazard toggle option and suddenly stages that used to be perfectly fine that made people go "if only we could turn hazards off the stage would be legal" are "too similar to battlefield" or "allow sharking so they're bad"?
As an aside, "if you don't like the stage ban it" is a fine argument, you used fallacies to try to make it seem worse than it is. Everyone knows that Pirate Ship is a horrible competitive stage, but Warioware is debatable because of how much more reasonable it is. And again, this argument wouldn't be a thing if we simply allowed more stages and gave players more bans. There's literally no downside other than the set taking slightly longer, and the community having to adapt to something slightly different.
Dude I can't understand why the fuck they would be ok with Lylat but not with Halberd. Like wtf. I can understand why Siege is not ok, the slant is too much in my opinion and it gives an advantage, alright.
But Halberd ????? Come on ffs. People can handle Pokemon Stadium in Melee but NOT HALBERD "BECAUSE IT IS NOT THAT OPTIMAL", in this video he didn't give any clue about what it was banned. Well, yes maybe the platform is a bit low, but they are banning it for that ? There are no walls, no camping, it's symmetrical, no platforms to the sides, blastzones are ok, but it's still banned ?
I mean, if there are no reasons to ban it, then to me people deciding to ban this kind of stages are just litteral babies who just don't want to play the fucking game.
Since when has competitive Smash been “fragile” it’s fucking thriving
Fr fr. We now pick stages before characters, so pick your characters around the stages. Too bad no tournament organizers want to change anything about the ruleset
@@CCuppy29 He means that the community is all of a sudden very quick to ban previously legal stages
Yoshi's story has a really small blast zone.
Research, friend, research. We need *more* small blast zones not *less*.
Would that perhaps include Warioware? :3
Warioware too small rip.
Theres mods on gamebanana that give it a project m sized blast zone and its fun playing ww as an actual stage.
So we are accepting stages like Kalos despite being very big but banning WarioWare because of size !? I've seen a lot of Pichus surviving at 120% on this stage and only allowing medium-big stages promote camping and slow matches (something that people don't like)
So many Ult players don't want fast paced games and prefer to just stay on huge ass stages like Kalos where they can live for longer and make more mistakes, dragging the games out to insufferable times. Warioware too small and unfun, right? Nothing more fun than seeing an Olimar or Sonic pick Kalos and camp the shit out of their enemy, right? Real fun!
Legalize Warioware as a counterpick. It opens up the game to more diverse character choice, and promotes faster paced gameplay. "You can die from minor mistakes because of the blast zones" is *not* a valid reason to ban a stage. If you want Smash to be considered a fighting game, stop accepting mediocrity. The entire point of a fighting game is to play as close to perfection as you possibly can. If you fuck up and get punished and killed, that is on *you.* It is *not* a result of the stage. You *know* what stage you are playing on, *know* how easy it is to die on Warioware, and should be *on top of your game.*
@@ApexGale There's a difference between "counterpick" and "a specific archetype just can't play". Warioware is just a little bit too small, if it was just slightly bigger it would be perfectly fine. The problem right now is that it's so small that any passive/spacing play is incredibly hard to pull off at all, while aggressive in-your-face characters are unstoppable. Plus, kill percent drops by like 30%, which means that characters with good low percent combos but poor kill power get buffed to the moon.
TIL: Rekzius hates slants.
And can't decide if he wants more ledges or not.
This man's explanation against slants bewilders me, cause it's only the word "jank" and that's it. The jank slants even offers is so dissmisable that my mind boggles about people's complaints against them.
@@Halcypian to me it just gives the impression of "i hate it because of how different it is". can you really call yourself a pro player if everything has to cater to your tastes? i might be a bit harsh here, but it annoys me how the competitive scene hates everything that is different
@@Underworlder5 I wouldn't put Rekzius as the face of competitive Smash, he's far from it really. If you want to talk about prop player opinions, you should seek those who truly master the game, and most of those who do, such as Mew2King, Esam, ZeRo, people
who's voices are backed up by some form of credence, tend to not complain and talk much about such supposive "controversial" topics because they're not.
@@Halcypian i have seen some videos from esam and zero. they seem like decent people, aside from zero having the "TITLE IN ALL CAPS" habit
"here is a criteria of stage elements that would make a stage invalid for comp play"
"these other stages do not contain illegal elements but are not different enough to justify being an option"
love comp smash lmao
The stages need to be different in order to prevent redundancy. My local ruleset is currently having this problem, with basically three types of final destination. In competitive play, theres a striking system, in which you ban two stages you dont want to play on. If there are too many similar stages, then banning two stages would be useless as the opponent can just use the next best stage.
@@fullgirlsemiboy just add more bans lol
@@powerowl2120 too many bans and it becomes a time concern. Easiest solution is to remove redundancy. Why add more bans when you can just have one of each stage.
@@fullgirlsemiboy no I agree I was just making a joke on what the common response is to that. I do think we need more stages to choose from tho, like the smaller stages because they benefit the characters that dont get any advantage or even disadvantaged from the bigger stages which are the norm. And in that scenario we may actually need more bans if say wario ware and other smaller stages were unbanned, but at least those stages would have variety and purpose
@@powerowl2120 Definitely, and i also think lylatt should be legal as it isnt the stage it was in smash 4.
What if I told you
*takes off sunglasses
*That PS1 has a slant*
Nani?
All my life I have been lied to!
People Will start banning It
Warioware should really be a counterpick. It being small balances the stagelist more, current stagelist include like only Smashville as a small stage which really nerfs characters that fight up close.
Same for castle siege
We should get at LEAST one or two out of warioware, yoshi’s story, or castle siege. I really hate pokémon stadium and how freakin big it is
Right!
Problem with WarioWare is that not only is it a small stage platform wise, but it's an extremely small stage blastzone wise. Ultimate has a lot of high base knockback moves that can straight up kill at 0 on that stage.
It was only legal in Project M after they increased the size of the blastzones. I agree that most stagelists favor larger stages and that it hurts some characters, but Wario Ware is not the first stage you should look to.
no stage should be legal where certain high tiers have consistent setups to kill a good chunk of the cast at 0. warioware should never be legal, it makes the tier list even more lopsided.
What I learned from this video is that competitive stages are extremely boring
Competitive smash players on their way to pick the most boring stages to legalize and forget about the battlefield options for every stage:
Boring is often a much better choice than frustrating. And 'fun' stages like Temple can often lead to way more boring fights when people are playing to win because all they'll do is just run the timer out after getting a percent lead.
Unpopular opinion: I like slants. I feel like they add more importance in positioning in the game and I love all the weird interactions that it creates so it can reward players for their knowledge and reduces the amount of set-play with flat stages. Do I think they are janky and make things a little less consistent? Yes. Do I still love the hilarious, funny, and unorthodox interactions it creates? Yes!
there already is inconsistency in the competitive scene. if stitch face turnips, judge and misfires are fine, then so should slants. your unpopular opinion is probably more popular than you think
Has nobody here played Project M, with their stage list?
Bro i main Ganondorf inconsistency Is my third name
I like slants too xD
okay, that’s great for you, but you should easily be able to see why pros don’t want something janky and inconsistent in the stagelist.
@@allofthelightsbykanyewest Because they can't be bothered to learn another part of the game ?
“Slants change how things like jab locks work”
Yeah that’s why they’re there. Got jab locked 30 times last game? Go to Lylat. Also lylat is nothing like other tri plats not even counting the slants
if you get jab locked 30 times, you fucking suck just tech shit
@@scs44444 i think It was a figure of speech ti Say that losing jab locks would not ruin competive play xD
I agree with Cstick. Saying it should be banned because you can't jab lock on some parts of the stage is idiotic.
@Some Idiot's Dota Those ledges are fucking crazy man. You can like hang onto them and stuff. Why can't we just have stages where the players are falling through an endless void with no ground? That would be so much easier and I wouldn't have to learn anything other than my character move list.
@Some Idiot's Dota you are the entire circus
"I'll try to argue in a mostly objective way."
"Big Blue: There's basically nothing wrong with this stage."
"This stage is fun and all, but not something for competitive events."
:D I know right? No argument against it given.
Sometimes you don’t really need an argument for stages like new pork and big blue big blue literally has a floor
Imagine someone making a tournament with banned stages only
No joke, a Shadow Moses Island tourney would be fun
Alpharad needs to do this
@@mr.potato He already did
Little Mac
But actually we need a tourney where we have spirits
Rishi's jungle jam
11:45 what makes the slants “purely a bad thing”? in yoshi’s story, i feel like the slants in this case are a good thing because it creates more variety, allowing for some moves to autocancel when they normally wouldnt be able to. it also deters players from camping because some projectiles can’t be used from the ledge
i think this guy's main is a zoner so he don't like the idea
@@aqualacerta3961 it's that, but also it just stops D3's gordo's which isnt fair, if you suck in your own gordo and fire it to kill, and then it hits a slant instantly and stops, that's not fair
@@annthom5301 so dont fire off gordos there and adapt to the stage. That's the point of someone counter picking on you
I think most people don’t mind symmetrical slants on both sides like on Yoshis island brawl or Lylat, but ones in the middle of the stage like castle siege or mementos are kind of annoying.
To be honest, slants aren't all that bad.
Also, we need more smaller stages. This will allow more characters to become much more viable.
I'd love to see Wario Ware and Castle Siege in competitive play. Very underrated stages and would help fix the lack of small stages.
I want wario ware so bad it is so fun to play on
#UnovaIsNotPs2
It would make characters like Incineroar, Little Mac, K Rool, Donkey Kong, and a bunch more characters a lot better.
Seriously, the fear of smaller stages is just agonizing. What's even the point of having counter pick stages if they are all just about equal?
Also the dismissal of the "Just ban it" argument was way off base. Wario Ware is without a doubt a 100% perfectly legal stage. It's small size is why it would be a counter pick stage. I'm of the opinion that there should be no bans, why are we giving the winner so much power to make sure they get the fight they want. If you want to be the best then learn to fight in a smaller and larger than normal stage.
Wario Ware and PS1 (It's bigger than PS2) should be counter pick. No bans.
I like the implication in the title that every stage is banned. It's not far from wrong.
Yea, pretty much. "If it's anything besides floor and slightly different floor then it's banned. Oh, btw, we don't allow floor when it's interesting, only flat floors for us."
@@lilyofluck371are you complaining?
@@kwestionablplus yes, ofc I'm complaining. Imagine having a competition that is based on how good you are at a video game, and more than half of the content in the video game isn't even allowed. Imagine how awesome it would be to see insane slope tricks and wall shenanigans on the screen! It would be so cool! And, it would create a lot of insanely hype moments. But no, they decided that they were just not good enough for main components of the game and just decided to remove it.
@@lilyofluck371 some of these maps are fun to play and not fun to watch, or are fun to watch but not fun to play, I think pro players have just been playing with the standard battlefield or final destination - type stages because its simple and doesnt provide any distractions from the main fighting of the game, and of course you are free to play on those flashy stages with unique layouts in your own time if its what you find fun 😇👍
@@lilyofluck371yes, its so hype when your grab completely whiffs because of jank stage design, truly what we should reward players for!
The floor of fountain of dreams actually damages incinaroar inkling and charizard. Damage for existing
Get good.
@@rjante2236 telling someone to get good when they- god ur an idiot
@@sonriku7331
"Ur an idiot"
@@sonriku7331 Isn't the point of competitive to get good?
@@sadlian3190 did you even read for context? :/
I feel as though Castle Siege is a viable counterpick, the small size makes for some really intense fights and minimizes the chances of camping while giving zoning characters less of an advantage in a lot of instances. There's still ample room to fight on the stage, and platforms to avoid incoming threats, I think the stage is much better than some of the legal options we currently have.
THANK YOU. People don't understand that heavyweights are at a disadvantage with our current ruleset. Incenaroar especially and the smallest you can get is lylat which is lylat. And unlike other asymmetrical stages both sides have advantages and disadvantages so being slightly lower doesn't put you in disadvantage.
Palu side b is a problem
DesHex if palu just didnt have explosive flame, itd be a great legal stage, but she’s already top tier in the current ruleset and legalizing CS would buff her more
Same for warioware. It's a small stage but it's an excellent character based counterpick.
Yeah, small stages make slow heavys better and campy characters worse, I'm all for them
I do understand the ideas in the video
But it does come off as a lot "theres too many platforms in my platform fighter"
Primo Antonius slants are apart of the gameplay you cannot just say they make it “fucky” if you don’t know how they work.
Primo Antonius sounds like someone can’t adapt to the environment and shouldn’t be regarded as a “good” player.
@@sizzlingwall716 Slants make it easier for attacks to whiff if you're standing on the higher side
@@KaliTakumi I thought having the high ground was advantageous.
@@kosmosXcannon I don't know but slants have really made me miss tilts and side b's while on the high ground
3:55 "nothing going on here" as there is a shit ton of hyper space stuff happening
"battlefield has been legal in ever smash game ever made"
*laughs in 64*
Duel Zone. It's often hacked in the game.
@@JayCeeCreates duel zone is still not legal
JayCee Creates no it’s not. They just turn off the tree in Dreamland
"Slants killed my parents."
"I'd love Pirate Ship to be legal!"
fucking pick one
As a more casual player, stages with traveling walk offs are removed from the random selection because nobody wants to be fighting to keep up with the stage.
Those stages that are banned only because of slants and is smaller is just an excuse to not adapt at all.
Small stages are amazing for heavyweights. Small enough for them to recover easily, and can still kill at modest percentage. That's the thing about it, most top and high tier characters are mid and light weight. So that'll force them to change their play style and how they should approach. Having counters is good, makes competition more intense and everyone gets a fair chance.
Slants puts projectile users a at a huge disadvantage since most projectiles go in a straight line. That'll force them to approach the opponent differently and use their tools differently as well. Also prevents campy projectile users and gives characters without projectiles a chance to approach them and actually fight back.
Sharking could benefit many characters and forces everyone how they should recover. Adds new depth, new strategy, and new ways to play the game.
Stages too similar to either Battlefield or Final Destination should still be legal just for visual variety. It gets boring looking at the same stages for a long time. Gives it more personality to the game since it's a Nintendo crossover fighting game.
It's a recurring theme about the banned stages. Any stage that forces you to completely change your play style and puts top/high tiers at a legitimate disadvantage is automatically banned. It shows that the Smash community refuses to change and adapt.
Small stages are great for heavy-weights, but there's a difference between being small and good for aggressive play and being so small that you consistently die at 70% playing more passively being completely unviable.
For slants, it's a bit of a mixed bag. It can add to diversity (as you said with projectiles mostly going straight, as well as allowing distinct ledge options and the like), but you also run into some problems due to the height change. A person at the bottom of a slope has a major advantage because they are simply that much smaller, so certain moves will drastically change in spacing, some will downright whiff constantly, some will have odd kb angles, etc. It entirely depends on how they are set up, and how large they actually are.
Sharking is another mixed bag, because it creates some interesting variety while also introducing some severe problems. For instance, ledge trapping is severely hampered due to how much easier it is to go below the stage to get a hit when trying to get off of ledge. Certain characters can abuse the lack of solid floor to cheese or stall for extremely long periods of time, and it completely reworks how disadvantage works, which isn't ideal.
Depends what you mean for this one. If they're all stacked on top of battlefield as one pick/ban, then honestly, omega or battlefield stages just work better. If you want them to all be separate stages, then banning battlefield is legitimately pointless.
No, not all stages are designed to buff top/high tiers. However, any stage that forces you to completely change the way the game is played is definitely a problem, because it forces you to learn a completely new set of habits and reactions specifically for that stage. This means that you are now forced to spend much, much more time learning to play the stage rather than just refining your normal play skillset. This wasn't always the case in previous games, but now that we do have these options, we can afford to be more choosy with our stages simply because comp players are focused around who is the best overall player.
Ben Passlow uh oh here comes the casual player here to say why a scene they know nothing about it terrible. Smash isn’t a shooter or a MOBA, it’s a fighting game. You act like these things weren’t tried out before, it’s like, the first Smash tournaments had items on and every stage legal, but they were eventually banned for being, well, trash
@@CCuppy29
He has a point. The Smash community hates changes and don't like playing outside of their comfort zone. Literally new possibilities for new play styles, new strategies, and more, but y'all are stuck in Smash 4.
Ben Passlow damn it’s almost as if, as if someone who’s spent more time on the game has a better understanding of it. Most competitive players including me started off playing casually, it’s not that we hate it, but a lot of stages aren’t fit for competitive play, I still enjoy them with my friends, but for serious practice I turn them off. Even with this, it isn’t hard to at least have the most basic semblance of respect for the competitive community, one of the best parts of Smash is being able to play it however you want, we respect casual play, respect us. Personally, my girlfriend plays casually, but still understands what I like to do and watches my sets on stream for support, it isn’t that hard
@Ben Passlow Smash hasn't exploded because it's a fighting game, which are almost always niche. Within the FGC, Smash is currently the biggest overall community. The problem with stages forcing players to learn is that smash in itself is already an extremely complex game to learn, especially in Ultimate. Most character vs. character interactions have dozens to hundreds of iterations that as a player, you have to recognize and adapt to. Rinse and repeat for every other type of interaction, and then add a mix of 70 characters. If the stage forces the player to learn specific habits and reactions for only that stage, you end up creating huge stage meta-games, which is not what you want for a stage.
If your argument against a stage is "because it has a slant", and nothing else, that stage should be legal.
@@unluckytoby buwu slants forces me to play differently and adapt , and they could make a good conterpick for the other player i don't want it * sad emoji face *
Ah yes, because you can adapt to a matchup but not a stage? Like jesus, the people who do competitive stage lists are trying to be professional right? Well isn't being professional, especially in a work environment, being able to deal with unexpected issues or unexpected results? Being *professional* about it?
@@TheKing-uh7zn yeah that was i was saying , that was irony as a response to toby
@@aqualacerta3961 yeh, i was also responding to Toby. sorry for not specifying that. My bad!
@@unluckytoby I agree. Randomness isn't okay (unless it's Hero, come on guys, he's midtier. don't BAN a MIDTIER!) Thats why stage hazards should be off. And some where there's still technically stage hazards can be banned. But a wall or a slant? Really? Cutting down the stage list to purely flat stages isn't fun, its boring. Slants and Walls add more combo potential to EVERYONE if you use them correctly. Will it be hard to get used to? Yes, but is how the characters bounce off a wall RANDOM? No!
Me: *choose new pork city*
*God has left the server*
*Satan has joined the server*
*satan has left the server*
Your entire video is just "If it's not like battlefield with minimal ledges, no slants, and just a few platforms, then it's banned. If it is just like battlefield, then it's banned."
This is why the DLC stages are built like that. That's a shame, they feel incredibly boring except for spiral mountain so far _because there's only so much you can do with "platform, a few smaller platforms, and some kind of gimmick that can easily be toggled off."_
And I'm a fan of all three series. Fuckin' sucks.
Nedoxu Still, it’s necessary for competitive play. A lot of stages are super fun with friends and casual play, but of course the more complex the easier it is to exploit a stage for an unfair advantage. Nintendo knows the competitive scene has always been a big thing for smash, they’ve learned since Brawl. So of course new DLC stages will be made fit for competitive play.
That's how competitive play is lol
@@derelictgbdavidlovo107 What makes exploiting stage design for an advantage "unfair"? I think it's more interesting if different strategies work on different stages. Why rule out any differences that you have to actually play around?
Ditocoaf a lot of “strategies” are cheap and don’t actually require any skill. It makes things really boring to watch and diminishes the experience entirely. Is it really that surprising that people want to watch skilled players PLAY the game rather than run around in circles and have a guaranteed win within the first 20 seconds?
"do people even enjoy mushroomy kingdom casually" yes, in a 'so bad it's good' sense
It’s even more fun with 8 players.
*So good its good
Same happens to pacland (I love pacland just because of how bullshit it is)
One time I was playing casually with people who do tournaments and they wouldn't let us use banned stages. Which sucks because I love the Isle Delfino one so much. They rendered it so beautifully and i feel so nostalgic seeing it. I also love the Wario Ware Inc one because of the mini games, Part of the reason stages are like this are to give variety and challenge, but I can see why in a competitive setting this wouldn't work.
You should find someone else to play with.
A thing you forgot about Castle Siege is the wall in the foreground on the right side, which can block the view of offstage interactions. I believe that is the main reason why it's usually banned.
But pokemon stadium has it as well...
If Pokemon Stadium can have that problem and be legal, then that should not be a reason to ban Castle Siege.
@@curiosityman3704 Does PS2 have the issue as well?
@@frosslad26 ps2 is most often banned for being too similar to ps1 , so i guess , maybe , idn. But that doesn't change or invalidetthe argument presented , ps1 is legal castle siege sould be legal too. Wario ware too imo , all the stage on our current stage list heavily favors campers and if heavys or rushed down character are mostly bad it's because of that , a stage list shouldn't favor a playstyle over another , and should have stage that advantage/disadvantage everyone , smaller stage and stage with slants are good to counter camper or character that rellies too much on tech chase this is why it makes a good COUNTERpick , even walls i could argue aren't bad , walltech is basically the same as groundtech , if you don't you're punished if you do you can still get punished or be saved , it allows rushed down character and heavys to have more combo potential , it also advantage the camper that this comunity seems to like so much so why isn't it legal ?
Why does it sound like you're doing an impression of your own voice.
I was forced to read this cursed sentence with my own eyes and now I can't unhear it.
I like slants. Slants make things a little less boring. There's nothing wrong with stages affecting gameplay as long as they affect it in a good way, in a way that's the same for both players and in a way that isn't random.
If Kalos is legal, warioware, yoshi's island and/or castle siege should be legal too. If projectile characters get their good stage, heavies should get a counterpick that gives them an advantage too, especially in their shittier matchups which tend to be campers. For balancing reasons, warioware should be legal. While stage bans seem to exist to save camping from being worse, our current list still favours campers and no playstyle should be praised over another. A stage list should do whatever it can to give everyone in the game a bit of fun.
thank you , this video is pretty bad tbh and the majority of comments i see are people complaining about it too
I'd keep Castle Siege banned simply because of the foreground. It annoys me so much.
Not to mention the forground obstructs vision at a certain angle, sadly.
@@PhaxtolgiaLegacy that's the least of your worries as it only does it on the right side at predictable timings and spacing. The worst thing about Castle Siege is the height differential.
the problem is that seige is INCREDIBLY tiny (and complety invalidates some characters like bjr) and the blastzones on warioware make it a walkoff. they wouldnt help heavies and would just make the game more boring
We need more slants. It helps add some dynamic to certain matchups, particularly for characters with projectiles. Why are we trying to only play on stages that are all so very similar?
The lack of variety in stage lists is one of the biggest contributors to the character tiers in this game. As it is now, it nearly always benefits characters who excel at flat stages and larger stages/far blast zones. Warioware would definitely be a welcome addition for a smaller stage. Kongo Jungle 64, Halberd or Lylat would be nice to break the mold of flat-bottom stages.
Slants mess up things like tech chases, jab locks, projectiles, moves that will hit or not, landing aerials etc.
It's much harder to have full control of what will happen when slants are on the line
I'd love to see more slant stages become legal like Castle Siege and Mementos. I don't see the issue with slants at all. I mean, they're an issue, but that's the point. They're for counterpicks. Battlefield is good for ladder combos, FD is good for projectiles, Kalos is good for ledge-trapping, etc.
The only competively-viable slanted stage I don't like is Yoshi's Island Brawl. It's just lumpy Smashville to me and feels really awkward, but maybe that's what gives it merit as an option.
Lylat is legal
@@Mattroid99 then get good at it? Like, there will always be obstacles making things harder, so why are you stopping at slants? Remove platforms too because it makes some combos harder, remove the floor aswell because it makes dying harder, y'know what, just remove the whole game because you can't lose if you've never played. It's all so dumb
@@lilyofluck371 It doesn't make things harder, it makes them inconsistent.
And fun fact most high level/top players were the ones pushing for Lylat to be banned the most
Plus by that logic, why even banning stages? Let's fucking play competitively on Temple and make every match a 1v1 Sonic ditto because no one else can catch him up once he gets a small lead, if you think that's stupid get good with it.
Do you see how silly your argument is?
This feels like all opinion rather than why a stage is/is not banned
He gives a reason always like it has slants or walkoffs then he says if he likes the stage
Tell me a stage that is opinion only
@@legoat3517 Big Blue, any stage that has the only issue of minor slants
@@zoramarslink5788 for big blue he says the ground tilts and the floor drags you a minor slant is enough of a reason too ban a stage in the competitive smash community eyes
Zora Marslink the slants part was not opinions. Some projectiles like the spacies lazers get messed up due to slants
How to make every stage legal:
Turn on battlefield mode in the stage selector
Lemons _ Still doesn't make all stages legal, because the Smash community can't handle the minor hitbox differences in 2D stages like Flat Zone.
@@stjanscrabeck7423 really? Didn't even notice that that's dumb
Dreamcast Soup congrats you’re a normal person, don’t try to understand it, it’ll honestly just make you go “and what use does this information grant me?”
True, except the 2d stages are still banned. There are a couple unfixed glitches that have to do with 2d mode, and I believe the Z axis is basically removed which can cause some issues.
That makes them too similar to battlefield. Banned.
If you dont like slants, you just want to push the meta of your main character. Which is exactly why some stages should have slants, diversity
Slants definitely add diversity, I think they're pretty clever myself.
@@WetDogSquad Exactly, But you know the smash community....
@1998SIMOMEGA I wouldnt have a problem with top tier characters if their moves were balanced properly... ya lol
But mah Jigglypuff singlocks
Same goes for small stages.
Like yes, Wario Ware and Castle Siege are small, but at least people who play non-campy characters want to add stage diversity instead of just calling to ban Kalos and Stadium 2.
That's funny how the super happy tree stage is actually MORE viable with hazzards on since the clouds will dissapear after a while plus those rando platform saves are hilariously hype
No it’s not
You can just keep jumping and hold while they attempt to get to you so it disappears and you move to the other cloud until it reappears
i might just not understand all the specifics, but a lot of these sound like "these things alter how the game plays and i don't want to deal with that", like i get the camping and time out friendly stages being banned, but can't you just learn which moves work better on slants? rather than just banning them because the moves you know don't work as well on them.
Better yet, in organized tournaments set up some kind of actual penalty for using time-outs. If your 'strategy' involves not playing and keeping others from playing that just sounds like Traveling in Basketball.
honestly the minor ones arnt too much of an issue. having to work your spacing slightly different. okay. sure
but i think some of the more sever slants should stay out simply because shorter characters could abuse the hell out of em.
@@MrOrdosan can you not developed a new way to play to counter that?
@@nunote2362 not exactly. but thinks like the slant on yoshi island basically makes it were everything hsort from up tilt just cant work. and vice versa for the high ground. those just arnt fun and to much work ((look at Venom. that map is probly THE least fun to play and its 95% slants and a single wall))
like slants like on lylate cruise ((specialy since it no longer rocks back and forth))
and even the ones on DK and even the hyule castle map arnt that bad ((disregarding the other issues that ruin it))
@@MrOrdosan I doubt uptilt is you only option, what about short hop aerials? Or characters with moving specials that could ride the slant?
Who are you referring to with "we"? You know there's not something like a global stagelist and some of the stages like Yoshi's Island you considered banned are still used a lot?
It’s a clubhouse
I hate slants personally, just because I main D3, and slants just fuck up my gordo's which isnt fair
@@annthom5301 I love slants because I main d3 >.
I was gonna say the same thing when he acted like Rainbow Cruise was always banned, despite it being allowed in some tournaments
The comments section being lit ablaze with “why ban the battlefield clones” provides a pretty valid argument for you just not putting in enough effort to explain this shit.
he said it was because it is not too different from battlefield the maps would be redundant and playing battlefield with different skins is redundant
The crazy thing is that he's wrong about a lot of them too, because the blast zone distance plays a huge part in things like Yoshi's Island vs Battlefield or PS1 vs PS2. It's fucking stupid.
Yoshi’s Island has slightly slanted ledges!
@@kwisowofer9872 yes big difference!
@@mayolover23 it also has higher platforms and the platforms go to the ledge, also the ceiling on Yoshi's story is really low
I dont get it, why are Huge Stages that give campy characters an advantage like Kalos fine but small stages that give slow characters an advangate (Warioware, Castle siege) bad? Slants already exist in competitive so that cant possibly be it
it's because the competitive seen love campers , even if they say that they don't , think of it as a tsundere
I hate slants, as a D3 main I think all slants should be banned
@@aqualacerta3961 Exactly. Why else would timescamming be a legitimate strategy? If a match ever uses the full 7-8 minutes then there is a serious issue. It just boggles my mind that it is considered okay to just not punish such toxic deliberately evasive for the sake of being evasive behavior.
Because people love camping (see some old leffen melee match geez).
Also i would love to play my Ganondorf with Warioware platforms lol.
So a game based on skill alows cheating and bans stages because cheaters dont want to play evenly. Why not just ban the people that use exployts?
"Yoshi melee is just another clone with battlefield. Too similar." really? Small slants, Wall stage, slightly bigger than battlefield with smaller blast zones. All of those sound similar enough to be the same thing? No. That's like saying every stage is too similar to FD, ban every stage.
Yoshi's story is actually pretty different than battlefield, in both size, platform positions, blastzones, no underside, and the slants.
Competitive stage selection: do you want 0, 1, 2 or 3 platforms on your final destination.
I get that it is to do with shenanigans in the game, but the lack of diversity is a big turn off for me.
I personally think the stages various hazards and walls and edges add a layer of excitement to the game. It’s more fun to watch someone jump and duck and flee while fighting than just watching two people run forward and punch each other.
@@YaBoiBrendo The issue with that is that it detracts from the pure skill environment that competitive Smash tries to create. These stages are a lot of fun casually but in competitive play, they mitigate a lot of the technicality and are a bit janky to play on. They’re fun but playing them competitively would be missing the point of competitive smash.
A big part of the problem is that for some reason stages like Dreamland, Yohsis, and Fountain are banned, even though they are actually pretty different from battlefield.
@@mccookies3664 adapting is a skill in an of itself, if a slant throws your enemy in an unexpected angle how you react is a part of how skilled you are
@@AuroraAce. yeah for sure but "ducking and fleeing" is really just camping and not very fun to play or watch
What do Rekzius and people from Berlin have in common?
They hate walls
Burger With Fries and Mexico
9:30 "Nobody should be able to retreat to a position and be in a more advantageous position than before"
wut Isn't that the whole damn point of a tactical retreat? Except for Melee? Why?
That’s called camping, not a tactical retreat
Slants can break mechanics and increases disadvantages of characters.
Moving platforms increases cheesiness and advantages of characters.
I'd say both would work in the category of Countrpicks.
*Rainbow is good:*
With both sides being different but carrying advantages on each side:
-One with a slant and an advantage for projectile users, as well as a small portion of the stage allowing sharking to give an opportunity for some characters (Ex. Zelda) with weaker options on ledge.
-One with a wall and an advantage towards infighters, increases combo potential, and in time and a strong enough move, untechables will come into play as the stage is small enough for people to kill.
Also includes a way of approaching platform camping.
*Warioware is good:*
Man imagine dying super early, haHaa. Hey who's that character?
*Fountain of Dreams is good:*
I would say the only way it could end up working out as a choice in time if it were to be considered as a Hazards On choice.
(In Mexico theyve included T&C and Smashville as Hazards On).
The sinking/rising platforms then go from a Projectile/Aeriel/Tilt heaven, to a Grounded/Smash Attack dream.
*Lylat is good:*
this is more biased based, with the reasons given, it would fall under the concept of CP moreso than a ban.
While I can understand some jank, most of these have been settled as more than just a Lylat only issue.
Recoveries can still be a bit bad, I can agree with that.
*Yoshi's is Good:*
Another stage that would be more appropriate with a Hazards On.
The advantage would be Randall.
However the disadvantage is the food that spawns with the FlyGuys.
I always felt that this was an under -addressed issue and more of a mistake made when making hazardless stages (Similar to how FoD platforms don't move, or Smashville plat doesn't move, Randall disappearing, but T&C platforms move).
I'm sure if the community is vocal enough about these types of things as a whole.
Im sure in a future patch we could see a change being made.
Seiko G. 200% agree. Smash ultimate is easily the most conservative game yet with rule set. Ultimate players complain way too much about junky disadvantage. It's not even remotely that bad. Even melee today is getting experimental so I don't want to say that it has to do with living in a whiny ass society, but ultimate, ..... It's honestly a whiny ass fucking society. Like, the majority that agreed on our current rule set banning lylat, ww and yoshi's are such crybabys. Y'all make lyrics on a bad nu metal song sound like Sugar by brockhampton.
There is more nuance to WarioWare being banned than just ‘you die early’. If you can die _so_ early that it becomes grossly disproportionately favourable for characters that have high base knockback and efficient mid-percent kill moves then it’s difficult to justify even as a counterpick.
Also, Randall is not remotely a universal positive. It’s impossible for players to realistically track his position through a match and plan for it, so he’s functionally a random stage element. For the impact he can have in a match that’s wholly unacceptable.
@@ShawFujikawa yeah randall is fun , sometimes he save you and most of the time he doesn't , there's nothing wrong with it ,+ he's legal in melee , next
@Adam Thompson You're accusing me of being irrelevent when this conversation isn't even about Melee?
If you want to talk about legality, consider this - the Japanese Smash Ult scene will go through the trouble of reenabling hazards if they want to pick Smashville or Town and City because they agree the moving platforms add something to gameplay. They DON'T do this for Yoshi's Story.
@@ShawFujikawa? Melee players do track Randal. Absolutely need to get good here.
Take a shot every time he says Slant
Dude, couldn't finish the video, not cool
The competitive community: "No, this is too similar. Banned."
Also the competitive community: "No, this is too different. Banned."
Its really more about not wanting to go on the same stage because if your character is shit on battle field and u ban 2 battlefield like stages then you are still stuck playing on battlefield. I think the stages should not be banned but should be lumped into category called battlefield. Also if a stage is different enough where it can completely invalidate some characters or make others broken then it should be banned
Ben Passlow and then what? Never play your character because the opponent will always pick a stage that invalidates them?
@Ben Passlow i will always choose character variety over stage variety if my character sucks on triplats and big stages and i only have enough bans for triplats im being forced to pick up a secondary legalising more stages makes low tiers much worse and top tiers much better
@Ben Passlow also are you talkinv about fox mirrors in ultimate where there is only 1 good fox player you clearly dont watch competitive ultimate. How can you judge an entire competitive scene based on a meme that doesnt even aply too this game
Huh, it's almost like there's this thing called a middle ground where there's enough differences to increase variety, but those differences aren't so extreme that it creates extreme imbalances.
You know, you ended up dismissing the "just ban it" argument with something very comparable to "just because."
Uh...work on that.
the just ban it argument is wrong though. if you are forced to use a ban because a stage is unplayable or shouldnt be legal in the first place you then cant ban a legal, but unfavourable stage
@@gazzzzaaa But Wario Ware and Castle Siege aren't unplayable, unlike Pirate Ship. He never comes up with any reason to ban them other than personally disliking them, in which case yes, you can just ban it.
Apparently you didn't watch the video
@Heavy Metal Collector He means within the context of competitive play. And don't be absurd; just because people want to play the game more seriously doesn't at all mean they're killing it. I say this as a more casually-sided player, to boot.
@Heavy Metal Collector You dumbass just like the other guy said it's for competitive play so if you can use "any stage" they can just pick a huge stage and run away once they got one kill till time runs man your a casual.
3:30
*mistakes were made*
K a m i
k a z e
Video: "every stage and why they are banned"
Player base: "because we don't like them"
There saved you a half hour.
I miss moving platform smashville too :(
i want a casual/competitive tournament where you play on crazy maps but competitively. that be fun to watch.
Yoshi's story has walls going down from the ledges making it different enough from battlefield imo. Characters with wall jumps and clings have more mixups off stage and characters who can normally go under the stage and recover to the other ledge no longer have that option. It might not be good for a starter but maybe a counterpick?
I think Warioland should be used for tiebreaker/draw matches, since the opponents are clearly extremely close in skill and they already played a bit, so the fact the stage is less forgiving then most makes it a good tiebreak.
Old comment, but that makes it an awful tie break (And is a concept that already doesn't exist)
Because of how swingy it is anyone can win by just making one correct decision and kill you at 30, is the opposite of consistency.
Exactly because their skill level is on par the stage shouldn't be factoring heavily in the outcome
“Walkoffs that move”... sounds like autoscroller with extra steps.
“I have a strange affection for Hanenbow”
You’ve said some shit in this video but this has to be the worst
It's a cool concept for a stage, the execution is just... Not that great
Doesn’t even work as a good green screen because of the bubbles
Yoshi's Story is not a battlefield clone. It has walls you can wall jump off.
You can wall jump off of battlefield under the stage too
@@annthom5301 doesnt work the same in practice
@@michaelcross7665 how not?
@@annthom5301 yoshi's story the walls go down into the blast zone, which creates interesting tech and deep edge guard possibilities. Generally on battlefield the ability to wall jump isnt practical except in the rare case of saving a recovery that otherwise would have been juuuuust short of making it
Yoshi's story was a counterpick at Smash'N'Splash as a counterpick against characters like Link whom it removes legetrap options with the remote bomb.
That is a very interesting counter pick. Slants are not the problem but rather the players who don’t want to adapt to the stage.
3:31 THE HERO KAMIKAZEED FROM A HOCUS POCUS AT ZERO PERCENT OH MY GOD
A lot of people see slants as a no-go for competetive play. they sometimes do some wonky stuff when you get launched into them, depending on the DI.
It rarely happened to me, but I can see why one might see this as a reason to ban it. Unfortunately this shrinks the pool of stages significantly.
Sakurai Should Watch some tournament and make some patch
>complains about stages being too similar
>turns off hazards so stages like dreamland and fountain can’t have unique qualities taken into account
I kind of miss how in melee even without those aspects Yoshi's, FoD, and Dreamland were different due to variations in stage size and blast zones. So even if it was a triplatform stage, the stages were actually quite different in how things played out.
MageKirby yeah but that’s the kind of depth you get with an overall better game that ultimate really needs still.
That's not his fault though. That is the consensus for all US tournaments for some reason. Japan has hazards on in stages but I guess the US is too lazy. A hazards toggle would really fix everything.
AngryNerds100 how is it not his fault? he’s the one that made the video. he understands that there are 2 different versions of almost every stage. it might be the consensus for TO’s in the US but who’s saying it is for all of the players? i definitely disagree (obviously.) this is just a poorly thought out video and has nothing to do with a hazards toggle.
AngryNerds100 also switching between rule sets takes 10 seconds tops. i’m not really sure that a toggle on the SSS would “fix everything”
Reminder to everyone that "banned in tournaments" does not mean "unsuitable for even people who enjoy a competitive playstyle". Quite a few of them you'll still see in "friendlies" very often. That's why you'll still often see stages like Peach's Castle Melee in competitive-focused fan projects, for instance.
There has to be a limited legal stage list to speed up the tourney process. Every single stage that is currently legal in every single Smash game is in Ultimate, but if all of them were used, stage striking would take *forever,* not to mention counterpicking would be a spaghetti-tangled mess.
Not to mention that there is *money on the line* in tournaments. Tiny differences which wouldn't even be noticeable in most average matches between competitive players can make a world of difference when the combatants are being purely pragmatic. (Don't believe me? Look at the *single match* which got the once-legal Kongo Jungle 64 banned in Melee: ua-cam.com/video/mTNaAUJZz5k/v-deo.html That disaster *would not have happened* if they were playing outside of that actually-high-stakes setting.)
If someone *insists* on using the legal stage list only even in friendly matches, chances are they don't actually know what they're doing and are just wearing it like a bear skin thinking it'll give them strength or something.
And if you *don't* play competitively, then it makes even *less* difference. Half the purpose of items is to pressure players into moving even on super-camp-heavy stages like Temple. (I personally at least turn Food on Low when playing friendly matches for this reason.)
(P.S. The "No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination" meme is especially false because, even and especially in Melee, Final Destination is *the absolute last stage you'd want to be playing on* if you were Fox, especially if going up against a character who actually does excel on it like Marth or Jigglypuff. FD is the stage you pick when you want to *kill* Fox, not when you want to *be* Fox.)
Baffle Blend thank you, thank you so fucking much. All these comments are just “so if I understand competitive smash stupid and boring >:( they can’t even adapt to anything”. These people are clearly clueless
Mucho sexo... Digo texto
Reem lmao
just give them a time limit and more bans boom
Add Wario Ware so slow heavies have more of a chance to win, small stages help those who are slow and powerful, (Incineroar),
Why do we ban this level? Because you die too fast?
But wouldn't that help speed up a tournament?
Don't we want all characters to be viable?
Why are we ok with large stages that help campers and zoners?
Wouldn't Wario Ware also benefit someone facing a character that needs space to zone?
Also it could help weak characters that struggle to kill, like Sheik, this stage and Castle Seige can help a lot of characters that struggle on the current stages,
"you die too quickly" sounds like he has never heard of a glass cannon before. it just calls for different tactics, but i guess that is too much to ask for
very mad guy yeah I mean isn’t this the reason why people like Melee? And Rivals? Because you could possibly 4 stock someone in under a min?
it's because the competitive scene love campers and zoners but they don't want to admit it , like a tsundere
We have an anti-fun agenda. I only play Smash while drinking 1981 California Pinot Noir
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but stage bans in tournament are meant to be a tactical thing meant to maximize your character's potential while minimizing your opponent's, right? In melee a Fox would ban FD against a Marth because that stage favors Marth so heavily. Being forced to use a ban on a stage like warioware, which is bad for every character, limits your ability to prevent your opponent from taking you to a stage where you are at much more of a disadvantage. Moreover, if every character wants to ban warioware in every matchup, why not globally ban it to keep competitive play more interesting? One of the most important parts of balancing a competitive game is preventing one decision to be universally the best choice. I fully support the ban on warioware.
But warioware isnt bad for everyone. Someone good at killing off the sides or a slow character would love warioware. It is comparable to a ganon main always having ps2 and kalos banned to prevent getting camped out by projectiles
9:50 "Waters just not a great thing in general."
Ah yes. A common sentiment among Smash players.
“Pokémon Stadium is a great stage and is probably going to be a starter for as long as smash exists”
Laughing in small battlefield