We Ranked 12 Gaming Chairs (Best Office Chair Tier List)
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
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We ranked 12 of the most popular gaming chairs. Were any worthy of the ultimate S Tier rank?
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Chairs in List:
Herman Miller Embody Gaming 0:15
Razer Iskur 1:22 - amzn.to/3GOS7rQ (Amazon)
Mavix M9 2:27 - amzn.to/3H5xR6x (Amazon)
S-Racer Homall Gaming 4:23 - amzn.to/3kcymTf (Amazon)
Secret Lab Omega 5:14 - amzn.to/3GHmYGz (Amazon)
Herman Miller Sayl Gaming 6:56
Haworth Halo Fern 7:54 - haworth.pxf.io... (Amazon)
Secret Lab Neuechair 9:19
Herman Miller Aeron Gaming 10:55
Secret Lab Titan 12:12 - amzn.to/3iDhHYy (Amazon)
GTRacing 13:37 - amzn.to/3GOS7rQ (Amazon)
Herman MIller Vantum 14:29
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Watch Next: Best Office Chair Tier List (30 Ranked For Comfort in 2023) ua-cam.com/video/YOd125qi8Og/v-deo.html
Have you guys tried the Kaiser 3? Apparently it has a much softer seat than the Secretlabs
Two years later, I still love my Herman Miller Embody gaming chair! Love it! It is worth every penny! An S-tier chair can't wait to game for hours sitting in this chair for Street Fighter 6!!! 😃
he mentioned gaming chairs hed rather have in the price range of the secret lab.. Id like to know what because I am looking in the 500-800 cad range and cannot find anything..
Since I am 198 cm (6.5 feet) tall it seems like i can not find any chairs except the gaming ones. Maybe you could do a video for really tall people? There are almost no videos online for us :)
I’m in the same boat. 6’3” 180lbs and I can’t find a good fit. Today I tried a gesture, leap v2, embody, aeron, amia, fern, and zody and none of them felt like a great fit and I had to compromise on something with every single one. Funny enough I went to an Office Depot and the best chair I sat in today was some high back gaming chair simply because it actually fits a tall persons frame. Therefore I ended up ordering the Andaseat Kaiser 3 XL today as it sounds to solve most the problems with the Titan. Sure hope so. The Vertagear PL6800 looks very good too, but you cant adjust the height of the lumbar and most lumbar support hits me too low as is. Guess people over 6’2 will never know the comfort of a high end ergonomic chair lol
The Herman Miller Vantun is currently on sale for $636 (20%) off. At 6ft 200 lbs, is this a good deal?
Any opinion on Interstuhl or Backforce or did ya ever heard of them?
Logitech Embody may be one of the best things I ever bought
I falled for their marketing campaigns and bought a secret lab titan. It’s terrible. Too firm and the back is like leaning on a rock with the lumbar support poking my back that it hurts.
Should have looked up your channel first 😭 Thanks!
I would have ended up in the exact same spot as you, but thankfully I found this channel before making a purchase with Secretcrap.
You guys should review the Haworth XBox Very Gaming Chair, there’s absolutely no reviews on it and it looks very promising
You guys should check out the Andaseat Kaiser 3. Basically a Titan clone, but supposedly more comfortable seat.
Will take a look -GK
I love how the "gaming" chairs are changing, in the begining it was literally car seats with the down part of a cheap office chair. But the new proposals are kinda interesting, also vertagear did some improvements with their new 800 series, maybe in a few years there could be more good "gaming" chairs and less clonic car seats.
Good video 👍
They'll either stop making gaming chairs altogether, or they'll end up looking a lot more like proper office chairs.
@@WolfOfJustice I hope they don't just start looking like office chairs. there is 3 good things about the racing gaming chairs and that is its accommodating for taller people, the recline feature, and the foot rest. I can do without the recline and the foot rest but I cant stand when a chair is so small my head has no where to rest and in some cases my shoulders are even above the back rest.
@@WolfOfJustice imo it would be best if they started to make a hybrid of both. its got to be tall or have a head rest that is very adjustable, it can have the shitty bucket chair style, leather and that cheap fake leather is a no go cause if ur paying 1k+ for a gaming chair then ur def sitting in it a lot, the arm rests need to be highly adjustable just like the headrest and it needs to be soft, good lumbar that isnt cheap plastic(the vantum). as for the tilt mechanism idk cause i don't have much experience using good tilt mechanisms but i assume it should at least be middle of the road.
Great to see you making tierlists about this! There isn't much info available, so I appreciate your effort a lot.
A small suggestion if I may: if you're going to test chairs, you may want to find some guests with a background in gaming to try them out as well and/or give you their side of the story, and hopefully some people that do >12 hours/day like many of us do, bonus points if they are slim build because you guys are all tall and strong, and I know for a fact these racing bucket chairs will be painful if you're too big for them (as you noted when you said your shoulders were pushed forward by the embody) but it will be a completely different story if you are shorter and slimmer, i.e. you are a good fit for the chair. It probably also affects other chairs for the same purpose, but I only have Aeron, Let's B, and a cheap DXRacer from 2013, and I can tell you all 3 of them have similar issues.
I have a few discrepancies here, like putting a chair without a headrest on S tier, when the lack of it automatically puts the chair at B tier or lower for me. It is extremely valuable in many situations, when you can lay back and rest your neck mostly, such as watching a movie/show, attending a 2-hour-long meeting, lectures, or even when you want to relax between matches if you're playing games... it really helps extend your endurance during long sessions, I swear. Also S tier should be flawless so it shouldn't be missing any features.
Anyway, thank you very much for all the reviews, it is really helpful.
The embody gaming is designed to support your neck without needing it to have a headrest at all. Also, atlas headrest has build a headrest (who would have guessed) that is officially authorized by HM which is considered to be the best headrest out there. They start shipping in a few months so it's a brand new thing.
S tier is a lot less about features, and a lot more about quality.
How would you rate the steelcase leap for gaming purposes?
I like your placements, for my gaming setup I got a Fern Digital Knit in black and chrome, no headrest, w lumbar. Since it's from the Haworth outlet it doesn't have a warranty so I'm getting the seat reupholstered in black nubuck leather and changing the cylinder to be all shiny chrome, so my chair will be 100% black and chrome. Matches my black and metallic white setup perfectly.
How long does the fern last before it starts breaks down? I've owned a nber og chairs and they all sink after a couple of years
Ouch no warranty. How much did it cost you?
@Nebuchadnezzar I've only had it for a few months, it seems quite solid though.
I’m going to buy the Razer Enki. What do you guys think of it in comparison to the iskur??
I’m interested to hear your thoughts because I might change my mind otherwise.
Review the Vertegear PL6800
WOOOO BTOD AT 3 IN THE MORNING! MUCH LOVE FROM CALIFORNIA!
Please review the fibo office chair geavity chair! Its very unique mix between gaming and office!
I don’t know if I trust the numbers on the S-Racer. Ok maybe they sold 10k units this month, but how many of those are returned?
Guys thought on Vantum vs Logitech Gaming Embody?
Not really a gaming chair by definition but the Steelcase Gesture with headrest is a great option if you are going the high end route. Got one myself recently and those ridiculous armrests are great both for controller and mouse/ keyboard gaming.
Great choice. 👍
Eventually, ppl will end up realising that office chairs are literally better for work and gaming than so called "gaming chairs".
I'm tempted to try the Gesture. I have a HM Embody right now which I love, but the armrests don't allow me to sit close enough to my desk. The armrests on the Gesture look amazing.
Good to hear that the Vantum has gone down in price, it was never worth $1000+.
Although I'm not a fan of racing style gaming chairs at all, I've heard good things about Interstuhl.
They seem to care about quality and customer service, since all their chairs are made in Germany and come with a 10 year warranty.
Would be interesting to see if you guys can get a hold of them and do a review.
they dont even have a gaming chair
I started watching your channel because I had been using "that" gaming chair that is everywhere. Had to replace it because a screw somehow started poking through the seat.
You guys recommended the Haworth Fern a lot, and I'm a gamer that works from home all the time. So I got the Fern x Halo, super comfortable chair and I don't mind the headrest too much.
Hate to say it but due to our baby, I have the entire back portion of the chair covered up and I think I need to cover the seat and armrests as well just go protect this investment lol.
I wish you would review the Hinomi chairs.
Do you guys sell the Steelcase Lamia?
Can you test one of the MonterTech gaming chairs?
They're aimed at the flight sim side of gaming but build quality is supposed to be really premium and people report the ergonomics being pretty nice
I don't see how a chair specialised for use at a flight simulator setup is going to be good for anything else.
It's almost like taking a racing seat from a cheap sports car and putting some wheels on it, I can't imagine any company making chairs like that...
@@StardustLegacyFighter I can't tell if sarcasm, as you just described 90% of gaming chairs.
You need a G tier or Garbage tier.
Love this idea - RG
Picked up an embody gaming over the original embody and 20% off code I googled worked as well, lucky day for me!
Hi, I would like to buy a new chair and I am deciding between Knoll Regeneration and HM Sayl, in one video you said sayl its just upgraded Knoll, but in ranking you put Knoll higher then Sayl, i wanna ask which one have better seat and back comfort, thank you so much! your videos is so helpful. :)
Damn, I can only dream of an Embody with better armrests... :D
Great video, thank you. Is it possible to trade in a regular Embody for a gaming Embody?
0:10 - The Logitech Embody :D
SecretLabs Titan is so close to being an insane value, but the seat itself is way too hard for sure. If you have like a purple seat-cushion or something akin to that for 40 bucks or so you get a massively improved experience. But there is still so much competition in that bracket against regular office chairs that it sort of remains within that C+ tier.
Yes. The Secret Lab chairs seat's are almost as hard as a rock.
The Andaseat Kaiser 3 is basically a clone of the Secretlab Titan Evo, but with softer padding.
Personally I love the harder seat. A lot of it comes down to personal preference.
Only get a Racing style chair if you want to have long term back and costocondritis issues. I got a Corsair chair and it was the worst thing I could ever sit in.
Could you add Vertagear gaming chairs review, perhaps?
Would love to see a review of the Gtracing Ergo13. Cannot tell if it is all gimmick or decent for a low priced chair.
Good review gentlemen! Does the HM Embody come with a headrest?
Nope.
there is a company (atlas) that is selling an aftermarket headrest for it, but it aint cheap...
its around 200$
So I got the Fern because on paper it had the deeper seat but when I scoot it all the way forward you can feel the back of the seat which kinda drives me crazy, so does the herman miller feel longer?
You mean the cap right behind the seat? I heard tall people have that issue.
I bought 3 chairs on black Friday, the gesture, fern digital knit and leap v2 plus. I'm 6'6 350, huge football player frame. I was just too big for all of them. Not the leap plus but I just didn't find it very comfortable. I loved the fern, the digital knit backrest was fantastic but the swat was just a little too small for me. Wish they'd make an xl version. The unfortunate thing is the gaming chairs have xl versions that do fit me well. I got the titan xl and had to return it, it was too firm. I have the kaiser 3 on order as I've heard they're a bit softer but I just would like to get away from the gaming style. Hope this one works out though.
There are furniture companies out there that do make chairs for Big + Tall ppl, the only real issue is the price.
If you have a fairly modest budget, I can recommend a few companies that should have the right chairs for you.
How do you like the Kaiser 3? I’m in the same boat. Tried like 8 of the most high end ergo chairs today and none fit well rendering them useless for tall people so I ordered the Kaiser 3 xl today. I will say maybe the Gesture with a headrest is ok for tall people, but the seat wasn’t very comfortable and I’m not paying $1800+ for something that’s not amazing lol
What do you think about the Hinomi H1 PRO ?
where would they rank the haworth fern digital knit version?
Probably S tier.
Have you ever reviewed/have any opinions on any of the high backed leather office chairs from Lazyboy?
Seems like you guys like the Mavix M9 (purely as a chair), but it appears to me to be a very generic style of chair going off of similar chairs from amazon, are the other chairs knockoffs of an older X-Chair model or does X-Chair just make an overpriced version, even if they were the original? Mainly asking if its really worth the 1k
Is there any comfortable chair for a skinny 5'11 guy for sitting 12 hours a day that's around 500$ available in Europe? I'm losing my mind trying to find one.
Kinnarps.
What's the difference between a 'gaming' chair and an 'office' chair? is it just the looks or do you sit different while gaming?
A gaming chair is entirely gimmicky, with completely pointless features like the ability to recline 180°.
An office chair is designed to be ergonomic, the emphasis is more about the range of adjustments and quality, rather than the look.
If you get a good office chair, you can easily use it for work/gaming without any problems.
4:50 F tier ?XD that was the one i was almost about to go out and get!
Interesting. I love my embody except that I wish it had a head rest. If you sit in your chair for 12+ hours, you kinda want a head rest. I’m in my chair from 4am-like 9pm. So headrest is a must. I think it’s a shame you don’t have an S or A tier with a headrest. It’s like… we make a list for office employees, not really people who sit for HOURS ON end
Well, Atlas are releasing a brand new headrest for the Embody.
You might be able to get a hold of one this year.
Honestly if they cant make a headrest whose height is super super adjustable then I dont want a chair with it. Shorter people just having the back of their heads awkwardly pushed forward constantly because it just doesnt hit right for them sucks.
Still piling up the pennies to get the Halo... bang for the buck, that seems like it's the one that'll work best for my wants and needs... Thanks for the great reviews!
My s-racer only got an F?! It’s fine just kinda loud. Easily fixable with 2 cans of wd40
Saw just now (Jan 19th) that Porsche & Recaro have announced a new gaming chair coming out. List price on it will be $2,499, though! 😮
That is ridiculously expensive!! -GK
Lmao, now that sounds like a gaming chair that's pretty much pricy, because of the brand name only.
I could easily buy any 2 high end office chairs with that money tbh.
Titan evo is the worst chair i have ever owned. It's so uncomfortable that i sold it week after buying it. I can't even imagine how bad the cheaper gaming chairs are..
They are horrible I bought a downx for $230 off Amazon and returned it almost within the week because of how bad it hurt my body I literally was getting bruises on my thighs from sitting cross-legged with how stiff the side bolsters were
@@AustinK95 Bruh, chairs aren't meant to be sat in like that.
@@Frosty_V0Office chairs are, that’s why they have the ability to move the arms
@@adensmith6440 Sure, they might cater to unnatural sitting positions to attract more customers, but at a fundamental level, sitting cross-legged is harmful. According to Autonomous AI, “In general, we can give a simple answer to the question. Is sitting cross-legged bad? Over time, unfortunately, sitting cross-legged isn't good for you. When you sit with your legs crossed, it throws a lot of other elements of your sitting posture out of balance. Your legs can press against one another, cutting off circulation to your lower legs and feet. This allows blood to pool, can cut off nerves, and make your feet fall asleep. You might also be sitting in a way that puts pressure on your ankles at odd angles, leading to ankle pain and overextension. Not only can this hurt in the immediate sense, but it can also lead to a higher risk of twisting or spraining your ankle down the road. Poor posture with your legs also pushes your hips out of alignment. When your hips are tilted, it puts torsion on your spine and twists it from side to side. That has a cascading effect through your back and neck and can lead to a variety of aches and pains, as well as increasing the risk of slipped discs, hernias, and other spinal problems.”
@@Frosty_V0 I couldn’t care less if it’s healthy or not, people are gonna sit in whichever way is comfortable for them.
How about the dx racer air pro
Hey guy whats up, is there any comfortable gaming chair that hold 300 lb +?
its called a sofa.
i'm sorry but you are too overweight for most gaming chairs out there.
Noblechairs claims that their Legend series chairs can support up to 150kg (330lb) but i find it hard to believe that any person that is as obese as that can actually fit that chair comfortably.
Great video. Thank you.
A racing style gaming chair rated as high as a herman miller? Come on. This kind of bucket chairs belong to category F, F and F. Yes, your welcome. Your back will thank me later.
F? No, my friend you are being way too modest.
They don't belong on any tier list, they would be graded as U.
Hey guys I'm looking into the Embody vs Logitech Embody atm, and I was curious how much you think that back padding comes into play on the chair not pushing your shoulders forward. The new regular Embody has the SEAT padding now too so fortunately that's not an issue.
I know Robert said it helps for the shoulders, but didn't get that feedback from Greg.
It definitely didn’t help my shoulders. The only way to eliminate the Shoulder issue for me personally is to tilt the backrest backwards away from me. But that is optimal since you lose the upper back support. Awesome chair otherwise-GK
The only way i'm able to reduce the pushing back issue is to lessen the tilt tension so much that recline is basically unusable, though once i do that the top backrest becomes loose enough that your upper back kind of floats with it. it's nice but sucks that you have to readjust the knob every time you want to recline.
Thanks for the feedback guys. I think I'm leaning toward the regular version, but I also fully intend to get the headrest from Atlas. That may or may not alleviate some of the shoulder issues depending on how I set it up to support me.
Por menos de 300 euros creo que poco puedo ver si acaso la markus supongo o alguna oferta puntual de Herman (?)
"Value" and "$1,000" for a gaming / office chair shouldn't be in the same sentence.
I have a cheap dps chair from Costco. I find it very comfortable. But never seen it in your reviews
They generally don't review options under $200, because they don't expect them to be any good.
A shame that most of these chairs are hard to find in Europe.
Hey @BTODtv, I'm thinking to buy a chair from you guys. I spend most of time on the chair every day for both working and gaming. I don't really care about arm rest. I just need a chair that can ease my back and neck because I recline all the time when I'm gaming, and working too sometimes. So can you guys recommend me a chair with good back support and headrest. It would be nice to have decent seat comfort as well. I'm 6 feet tall btw. I'd much appreciate your response!
Do you like to rock back and forth, or just stay in the reclined position? If you stay upright or reclined, the Neutral Posture 8000 with the headrest is a really solid option. Excellent support when reclined, the headrest is super comfortable in a ton of different positions -GK
@@btodtv I like staying in the reclined position. Neutral Posture 8000 looks solid but the problem is it doesn't seem to be able to tilt a lot. When I'm reclining, I like to put my feet on top of something so I kinda need the chair to be able to tilt by a fair large angle. Do you think if OM Yes is going to be a fit for me?
I just don’t want to spend over $1000. Why are even the “bad” chairs so incredibly expensive?
Oh wow I didn't know u guys have the NeueChair coz u guys never made a video on it b4.
The Okamura Contessa is far better tbh, it's the OG one.
@@StardustLegacyFighter Yea ik the NeueChair wasn't designed by SecretLab. They just copied the design and rebranded it as their chair.
It's a newer addition to our collection. We will post more content on the Neue Chair in the next month or so. - RG
Aeron is S-tier
have you checked out ikeas new gaming chair "styrspel"?
It's a very mediocre chair, the only review I found about it on UA-cam, was extremely biased.
The guy reviewing it claimed it was on par with an Aeron lol. 🤦♀️
Problem for me was I LOVED the Herman Miller embody, then I see the price of 1800 dollars and realize my shitty office chair hand-me-down is just fine 😂
Have to say though, it almost seems a bit biased in some of these videos when I hear a certain chair is literally as bad as the wooden kitchen chair (different video reference). I mean… really? Really?? No way lol
But I appreciate the reviews of all these. But there are definitely elements to these videos that make me a little uncomfortable trusting your opinions. Namely that you get money based on *some* of these chairs and not all.. so the ones that are reviewed, do they have a bias if they are pens you’ll make money from?
Hmmm. I’d have to go through and look what rations were given to some of the ones you won’t get paid for showing off for 🧐
i've tried these american brands here in Europe, none of them sit as good as the Kinnarps plus 6 series. a Swedish brand
Kinnarps do great chairs but think they are somewhat exclusive to Europe. I have a Kinnarps +8 synchron at work.
I've heard great things about them, but I'm not that impressed with the warranty.
Ugh, that horrible neon green is so fugly. Reminds me of the cheap plastic kids toys at dollarama
The essence of a gaming chair haha -GK
Damn I need something around 500$ that I can buy in EU and has a head rest (really used to it on my DxRacer, poor guy has lasted like 7 years now).
Aeron that has opened box is like 1900$ in our country, that is maaaad
Check out Löffler. German Brand 30 year warranty
@@Moritz.Langen Just researched them and wow they are an incredible company.
Over 300 years experience of making furniture and a 30 year warranty for their office chairs.
This company has the potential to give Herman Miller, Steelcase and Haworth a run for their money.
@@StardustLegacyFighter I have bought the Figo Air and it is simply amazing. Very comfortable and ergonomic for 700 Dollar price tag.
What about the dxracer air series gaming chair?
Pretty terrible, considering it's cheap mesh and it has hard edges.
"Gaming chairs" the trailer park of the chair industry. 😂
I could never take anyone seriously if I walked in their house and saw a gaming chair, shouldn't even let kids have that trash. I don't consider the fake gaming chairs like the Embody or Fern to be in my criticism, rebranding a normal chair and calling it a gaming chair doesn't make it a gaming chair. At least the Embody looks normal, the Fern looks ghetto.
Lol, Venom comes into the room swinging -GK
@@btodtv Hey, at least I didn't trash the Vantum. LOL. They lowered the price which is the right move so it's more acceptable now. They were just trading on the Herman Miller name hoping suckers would buy it at the original price. So with sales it would probably be in the $600 ish range which is not bad.
@@venom5809 Vantum is still utter garbage imo, making it cheaper doesn't change the fact that it came from HM. I wouldn't pay more than £450 for it, considering that I can get a fully loaded Sayl for about the same.
@@WolfOfJustice It is trash but it’s much more palatable the nearer it gets to $500. lol
lol and of course the s tier chairs are all $1800+
Bro ytf a chair cost 1800 dollars bro that stupid af 😂
sracer homal chair..I'm currently sitting in one thats falling apart. After 5 months the arms bent and one broke off. The butt support is a small plank of wood and the rest is empty and your weight is supported by the arms and stitching. It's a horrible chair and over priced
I'm not shocked. Sorry that it feel apart though -GK
@@btodtv thanks! It's all good. Found the Ticova Ergonomic from another one of your videos. It arrives tomorrow. Got it for such a good deal. Looking forward to it 33% off plus -$60 coupon. Thank you for the recommendation!
embody for the win
Wouldn't be one of your reviews if there's no Aeron featured in one way or another, you love plugging that chair a little too much, guys 🤣🤣
I mean, there's technically a "gaming" Aeron chair, but it's all black lol.
Their favourite chair is probably the Leap v2.
I have a Titan and it is dreadful. Just another shitty gaming chair. F tier for me.
ergocentric t centric
I think you guys need the XL Secret Labs...and then the problems would go away.
Yall are nuts or got too much $
Health is much more important than money.
Maybe you don't work 8 hours a day at an office desk to care about what chair you use.
"Affiliate Disclosure: As an Amazon and Herman Miller Associate, BTODtv may earn from qualifying purchases. "
Yeah, you cant take this as a honest review....
You can be honest and still have affiliate links. They are not mutually exclusive. We do not make anything by talking about Herman Miller. That was a typo. If I was trying to maximize affiliate revenue, I would have just done what every other publication does and picked the Secret Lab chair as S tier. It would be the easiest way to maximize revenue on a video like this. But the chair is terrible, so we told you what the actual good chairs are, even if it means that we do not make the same money in affiliate revenue. -Ryan
@@btodtv The issue I have with this is that this company says they won't leak your data, this company says that, etc. so I feel why being transparent is good, at times it needs to be excluded. You aren't lying by NOT putting the disclosure, you just aren't saying the entire truth. BTW, this is just my opinion, nothing else. Another person can view this review as perfect, just and true and it would be perfectly fine.
Chair snobs lol
$1800.00 for a chair? Do you wear $500.00 underwear?
Hmm....not sure that is apples to apples. But your underwear should give you good support, and so should your chair lol -Greg
These dudes are too privileged.
I'm surprised that this video was made by you. Pointless really we already know the rankings this has been done so much already. Most expensive at the top. Anything gaming will always always be at the bottom no matter what. Needs to be a post next time, not a video. Plus the top ones were normal chairs before their manufacturer slapped gaming on them to capitalize on the trend.
It's almost like you didn't watch the video or skipped all the way to the end and just rambled. Also, with ergonomic chairs you tend to get what you pay for so why you are bamboozled the more expensive chairs are towards the top is beyond me.
@Adamant trust me I watched ONLY high-end high label chair they dissed the new chair by hm. You tend to miss the point or haven't watched all their other videos it's the same list literally!!! Just keep off the lower brand gaming chairs. Go to any other ranking videos they have and compare. I dare you
@@carajean206is is the first video I’ve ever seen by these guys because I searched for Herman Miller vantum. So it’s good that they made this video. Don’t be so critical when ppl are putting hours of work to provide us with free informative content.
@@DNYLNY What I am critical of are for people who watch and are subscribed to this channel. We see the same recommendations over and over. We know the speel by now. This comment was in no way directed to people like yourself who stumble upon this channel. They aren't putting more than a couple hours as they have the data already for all the chairs except the very latest.