The combat phase was a MASTERPIECE in 2nd edition 40k

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  • Опубліковано 30 вер 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 186

  • @petsdinner
    @petsdinner 10 місяців тому +123

    It is a vivid memory of mine that when two squads charged each other me and my friends would collectively sigh, roll our eyes and reach for the Fantasy rulebook because the combat resolution was much easier. We would generally only bother with the 40k close combat for single combats between characters.

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin 10 місяців тому +13

      I think that was the weakness of 2e close combat, it was hard to track when full-size units made contact. It was written for duels with 1-2 characters and 5 infantry models and maybe a single monster on each side.

    • @IndianaSmallmouth
      @IndianaSmallmouth 9 місяців тому +3

      Booo! Boo

    • @7isAnOddNumber
      @7isAnOddNumber 9 місяців тому

      That’s how I’ve been playing 2e recently. It works great

    • @magicalawnmower4764
      @magicalawnmower4764 3 місяці тому

      which edition of fantasy would you recommend for combat rules?

    • @magicalawnmower4764
      @magicalawnmower4764 3 місяці тому

      ignore my question, found the 4e rulebook and that is way better for mass combat, super similar to combat in just about every edition

  • @stujm84
    @stujm84 10 місяців тому +76

    Looking at the pics from the 2nd minutes onwards, there was a lot GW staff members sporting pony tails. Like, all of them, the exception being ofcourse, Andy Chambers and his fearsome Mane (which i have no doubt had its own rules set and always won regardless).
    This is how 90s 40k should be remembered. Big tables. Big armies. Big Hair.

    • @garyburke6156
      @garyburke6156 9 місяців тому +6

      there was a little known law that required all tabletop gamers to wear ponytails that was strictly enforced at tournaments and only repealed in 2002

    • @Flamethrower1942
      @Flamethrower1942 3 місяці тому +1

      Heavy metal was the rage back then for nerds 😂

  • @Bluecho4
    @Bluecho4 10 місяців тому +13

    That bit about old rules being balanced around small game sizes really makes sense. 40K in its early years was very much a low model count game. The kind of thing you'd probably call a "Combat Patrol" by today's standards, was just a normal engagement. Back when Snipe & Wib were doing their 2nd ed retrospective, I was amazed that a "500 pt game" was literally one box of space marines each.
    So a set of combat rules with lots of modifiers and comparing stats was more reasonable under those conditions. You might only have one or two sets of combat per battle round. You could afford to get into the weeds a bit. As armies grew larger, this became an albatross around the game's neck, badly in need of simplification.

  • @DarkLordFoamy
    @DarkLordFoamy 10 місяців тому +27

    I still remember the good old Ork strategy of dealing with a big model in combat of "right have the gretchin attack one after another and then Runtherd with Power Klaw go with all the bonuses!" Was quite effective.

    • @7isAnOddNumber
      @7isAnOddNumber 9 місяців тому

      Exactly how Orks should treat Gretchin!

    • @hanng1242
      @hanng1242 3 місяці тому

      I'm still bitter that my Avatar of Khaine got killed by having a snotling teleported into it by the Shokk Attack Gun.
      Screw 2nd Ed Orks.

  • @olly123451
    @olly123451 10 місяців тому +30

    Considering this is episode 3 of a ~4704 part series, I gotta say that your editing style and overall general video flow is amazing. I really appreciate you moving forward with the things that work and dropping some of the things that didn’t in the earlier videos. Awesome work as always.

    • @reallyidrathernot.134
      @reallyidrathernot.134 10 місяців тому +2

      I really did not imagine this was an itch I needed scratching.

    • @OldenDemon
      @OldenDemon  10 місяців тому +5

      Thanks you, I have learnt a lot since I started

  • @richtheunstable3359
    @richtheunstable3359 10 місяців тому +13

    Chaos dreadnought. "Only a powerfist you say, hold my Mk 1 plasma cannon".
    I miss when thunder hammers were not just to heavy for normal marines but the force unleashed on striking would have sent the marine and hammer flying.
    The line in the chaos codex about how it is only thanks to the march of Imperial technology that they have got them down to terminator size from dreadnought size was rather amusing to.

  • @captainweekend5276
    @captainweekend5276 10 місяців тому +69

    On the topic of Primaris veterans, they come from two places, the first being formerly firstborn veterans that have drank the Cawl brand Kool Aid and crossed the rubicon primaris, the second being primaris that have been in stasis and basically trained on combat sims. Especially for the ultima founding (primaris only) chapters, veteran is much more a combat role than necessarily a reflection of a length of service. Also going off of the new rules it seems the jump pack intercessors don't need power swords since they're more than fine dealing damage by just body-checking whatever they get into combat with, reflected by them doing mortal wounds on the charge, zoomer marines are built different fr fr no cap.
    Also the combat system for 2nd edition is very cool, and it gets me excited for legions imperialis since they use a very similar system.

    • @epickingedward7378
      @epickingedward7378 10 місяців тому +1

      Was about to say, I thought the vets were just coverted first born

    • @Yurt_enthusiast7
      @Yurt_enthusiast7 10 місяців тому +4

      And here I was assuming that GW just made Primaris more like the earlier marines because they just want rehash stuff they already sold🙄

    • @Bluecho4
      @Bluecho4 10 місяців тому +4

      @@Yurt_enthusiast7 That's the Doylist explanation, yes. The video was presumably asking about the Watsonian one.

    • @Bluecho4
      @Bluecho4 10 місяців тому +3

      I'm also vaguely aware that some Primaris marines were sent on limited, secret engagements throughout the 10,000 years. So some of those officers could have seen actual combat action before Primaris were formally introduced.

    • @Khasidon
      @Khasidon 10 місяців тому

      hahajahahahaha

  • @anotherzingbo
    @anotherzingbo 10 місяців тому +11

    When Thunder Hammers were added to 1st edition they could be overloaded, inflicting a hit that did d6xd6 damage before exploding, was that still in an option in 2nd edition?
    The 2nd edition melee rules were a weird period, 1st edition started with traditional Warhammer Fantasy-like melee rules that late on got changed in White Dwarf and the Battle Manual, with the new system carried on into 2nd edition before it was all undone in 3rd. My main memory of them was the weird way GW forgot in the examples that tactical marines carried bolt pistols and knives so they should have rolled two attack dice, not one.

    • @mwnciboo
      @mwnciboo 10 місяців тому +2

      Overloaded Thunder hammers and huge pie plate explosion of a full launch cyclone terminator missile launcher. 2 amazing things in old school 40k also hop-splat-gun.

    • @VeritasAbsoluta
      @VeritasAbsoluta 9 місяців тому +1

      @@mwnciboo Oh yes, the cyclone missile launchers. They held 12 krak missiles and not many people seemed to remember about the barrage fire function. Uses a blast marker with 0.5" radius for each missile in the barrage, so 4 missiles = 2" radius, all 12 missiles = 6" radius = 12" diameter = half the normal deployment zone. Strength 8, -6 save, D10 wounds, armour penetration D10+D6+8 (between 10 and 24). Can easily wipe out a quarter of whatever army you're facing in the first turn.

  • @SlocumJoe7740
    @SlocumJoe7740 10 місяців тому +24

    Is it just me or does the 2nd Edition pictures of the game are just so much more dopamine inducing then the new stuff?

    • @ElGreco15
      @ElGreco15 10 місяців тому +2

      I love how the Nids are nightmare fuel

  • @cavemanbum
    @cavemanbum 10 місяців тому +7

    1:32 - This means that any model with an Attack characteristic of 1 can never get a critical hit because the +1 is added only for every '6' after the first. I house-ruled it for the games I run that ANY '6' rolled equals a Critical Hit. Thus, even a modest model with an A1 can still manage a critical hit.

  • @AnotherMC
    @AnotherMC 10 місяців тому +7

    Bro, just seeing your new video in my feed made me smile so hard. Keep up the good work 👍🏻 🇦🇺

  • @LRGCarter
    @LRGCarter 10 місяців тому +9

    Re the Evesor assassin bit:
    We always played it that while the stats were assigned on a scale between 1 to 10, modifiers could take them above and below. Given that the page displayed at 11:42 ends with a section on zero level characteristics, we assumed the quoted sentence was open to exceptions.

  • @albertobarriales474
    @albertobarriales474 10 місяців тому +9

    Amazing video, as always. Chaos Dreads in 2nd edition could have a thunder hammer, which combined with the double-auto cannon with re-roll ability ( reaper cannon rip off ) and also the havoc missile launcher, made them far superior to their loyal ex-friendos in many encounters.

    • @michaelryan6947
      @michaelryan6947 10 місяців тому +1

      That was a nasty cool looking unit! Painted in Night Lords for WD?

  • @bigchichi1176
    @bigchichi1176 10 місяців тому +9

    Thank god this is only part 3 of 47, so much great content to watch for years to come!

  • @JohnDoe-b4h
    @JohnDoe-b4h 10 місяців тому +5

    Please make more videos about tyranids😊

  • @ismael9914
    @ismael9914 10 місяців тому +34

    For the Primaris bit, you have to remember that quite a lot of firstborn hwere made into Primaris via the rubricon process (or some silly name like that). So Primaris Veterans are just Veterans who got a new set of fancy super steroids.

    • @giraton1
      @giraton1 10 місяців тому +6

      Well that and the fact that a lot of the Primaris Veterans exist late into or after the Indomitus crusade, which was if I recall correctly, 100 years long.

    • @Bluecho4
      @Bluecho4 10 місяців тому +2

      @@giraton1 From what I've heard, the relative "now" of 40K is currently something like 200 years or something after the Fall of Cadia. GW had to give the galaxy enough time for folks trapped on the far edge of the galaxy to get their Primaris marines. So folks near the core have had theirs for far longer.
      Not counting that since the Cicatrix Maledictim, the flow of time has apparently been extra wonky and inconsistent. For all we know, some places might have seen Primaris marines fighting for many centuries compared to others, even if they supposedly got the technology at the "same time". (All of this being a separate issue from the Imperial calendar being a hot mess.)

  • @Balls_Mahony
    @Balls_Mahony 10 місяців тому +4

    I guess veterans are just upgraded firstborn... God I hate this whole lore mess they've created

  • @SusCalvin
    @SusCalvin 10 місяців тому +2

    Like many other rules, the combat rules would survive into the skirmish games of Necromunda and Gorkamorka.
    Fighting a single model with high Weapon Skill was gnarly, even for a large group of lesser opponents. Winner takes all in this combat system, and a high WS is very hard to beat. It took some sacrifices to even start to even things out. In Necromunda, you didn't have large units of mobs to do this with, the duels were short and intense fights between about three or four models at most. Exactly the sort of small duels WS monsters like. A high-WS ork that managed to jump on top of an enemy vehicle in Gorkamorka would count as duelling every passenger of that vehicle, and the defenders would have to decide who went up first.
    A unit of elite close combat lads would have simlar advantages. It's hard to strike back on a group of assault marines barreling down with their jet packs and chainswords. They're not as individually gnarly as a champion but still nasty enough that they destroy or break the target unit with few losses. Of course the risk is aways that the neighbouring enemy unit with a heayv bolter or two starts to open up on them the next turn now that this assault squad has made itself the nearest target.
    I think the weak point of this system was larger scale assaults. Dividing a fight between four marines and six orks into four little duels (including two 1v2 duels) is easier to keep track of than ten assault marines slamming into a full-strength unit of 10-20 orks and using their jump packs to make sure every marine connects with someone.

  • @spoonsrattling
    @spoonsrattling 10 місяців тому +1

    I do enjoy the second edition combat rules but i dont want to think about my ten nobz with warboss charging a 28 strong guardsmen squad. Ill leave this more gritty melee to killteam and necromunda

  • @BittermanAndy
    @BittermanAndy 10 місяців тому +1

    Response to title only: no, it wasn't. Play 20 Gretchin charging 5 Space Marines and come back to me.

  • @stats1981
    @stats1981 10 місяців тому +2

    One of your stills was a Blood Angel army with a Thud Gun, what happened to the Thud Gun? I’ve got a Blood Angel Thud Gun, probably inspired by that very picture! It came with a little Squat gunner! I’ve just bought a “made to order” servitor to stand next to it!

  • @m704kt733
    @m704kt733 10 місяців тому +1

    Conversely Necromunda suffers these because of the modern rule set, it worked a lot better with the second ed rules.

  • @gunslinger1911a1
    @gunslinger1911a1 10 місяців тому +1

    I miss these rules, though I understand they weren't good for bigger engagements. But, it's a far sight better than now... Where it's just fucking shooting in melee.

  • @xyonblade
    @xyonblade 10 місяців тому +4

    primaris marines? they don't exist in my world hehe. But back on topic. I think 3rd edition swung too far away from the rich complexity of 2nd. AP either negating armor completely or not having an effect at all. Basic power weapons negating all armor saves, special characters like marneus calgar becoming chumps because of having no invulnerable save. Squads like assault squads losing access to all those special combat weapons. Veterans losing WS/BS bonuses. They could have done a much better job of simplifying/streamlining 2nd instead of just... doing whatever 3rd edition did.

    • @radiospace7071
      @radiospace7071 10 місяців тому

      They do exist

    • @VeritasAbsoluta
      @VeritasAbsoluta 9 місяців тому

      3rd edition was the reason I stopped playing.
      They reduced points values to encourage people to buy more models and created rules that made little sense. Everyone had the same movement rate, if you move you can only shoot at half range, and certain races got way more stat boosts that others including making Mephiston, a S7 Vampire Lord in 2nd ed, into a S4 chump "because he's a space marine and space marines are S4". Genestealer claws also negated armour like power weapons did, which kind of wrecked the lore about terminators clearing out space hulks if their heaviest of heavy armour is going to be bypassed entirely by the man-sized creatures they encounter.
      They also stated some nonsense about making the rules quicker to learn and faster to play, whilst publishing a rulebook that was twice as thick as the previous one.

  • @thresholdau
    @thresholdau 8 місяців тому +1

    I"m really convinced interpretations of 2e rules was a regional thing or we just didn't read the rules close enough.
    I really forgot all the oddities and exploit-ability of it, maybe because we didn't power game it that much back then.
    Almost like we wanted to have fun or something

  • @JamesWhoMakesGames
    @JamesWhoMakesGames 10 місяців тому +1

    Pffft, I really don't think most players want battles to be realistic! 😅
    But I've now become the person who nitpicks the punchy opening of a very well made video, so who's winning really?

  • @SlabBulkhead
    @SlabBulkhead 10 місяців тому +3

    I was thinking it probably worked pretty well in necromunda before you mentioned it. The system in the current edition of Kill Team is a good fit for that size of game as well.

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin 10 місяців тому

      The scale in Necromunda and Gorkamorka was much easier to overlook. As a side effect it was also harder to overwhelm close combat WS monsters. You did not have a large mob yourself. And if you managed to sacrifice three models to give the last two models a good shot at the close combat monster, those three sacrifices was all it took to bring you close to a bottle check.
      The best option was usually to disengage any surviving models and start blasting. The other strategy of not giving the WS monster the fight they wanted. Try charging when you're constantly pinned. Guns hurt when Necromunda gangers in light imperial armour and barely T4 take hits.
      Boarding was a situational but viable tactic in Gorkamorka. Ork models could try to use their laughably low Initiative to jump over and assault another moving vehicle, or rig theirs with boarding planks to make it automatic. One boss making his way into the passengers could be a gnarly fight. Everyone was in automatic contact, and the defenders decided who got to face the boarder first. More fun if the boarders managed to knock out the driver eventually, and the whole vehicle started skidding into a crash with the vehicle the came from.

  • @johnsnow5968
    @johnsnow5968 10 місяців тому +5

    6:40 - GW did a several century time jump after primaris were dumped out.
    Personally I really like the primaris from an "outside the letter of the lore" perspective because historically this kind of doubling down on a hideously inefficient waste of resources was exactly what flailing dying empires have done.
    "Mein Gott, ve are crucially low on ze steel and gasoline! And ze allies have total air superiority and massive amounts of Artillery with accurate air and radio spotting!!"
    "Nein to vorry Hans, ve have just ze thing! Ve have melted down all ze remaining steel and made a hundred or so extremely slow, gigantic heavy tanks! Ve should have just enough fuel to run zem for 10 minutes!"
    "Ve are saved! Hurrah!"

  • @mrwri
    @mrwri 10 місяців тому +2

    I seem to have spilled a bit of Skull White on my lap after listening to this bit. 2:30

  • @DrakonPhD
    @DrakonPhD 10 місяців тому +1

    ... they have veterans because theyve been around for hundreds of uears at this point. Not every space marine verteran has been fighting for 500 years, most probably have been around 50 or 70. More then enough time for certain primaris to get enough renown and experience.

  • @doguipreacher
    @doguipreacher 10 місяців тому +1

    Modern Kill Team with its genius modern game design is basically a simplified version of this combat (and a lot of Lord of the Rings rules, Rick Prestley for the win)

  • @reallyidrathernot.134
    @reallyidrathernot.134 10 місяців тому +3

    Also it was never clear to me if a spacemarines combat knife, which they all had, could be used with a bolt pistol (which they all had - I think?) to give the extra dice.

    • @1985slipstream
      @1985slipstream 10 місяців тому +1

      hmm yeah always seem weird a marine against a goff with a an axe and bolt pistol usually losing the combat due to the average of 2d6 vs 1ds. likewise for terminantors (bar lightning claws)

    • @LRGCarter
      @LRGCarter 10 місяців тому +3

      This bought back memories of having the same questions myself. So, I just checked Codex Ultramarines and found they only had the bolt pistols. Weird. So I checked the Black Codex and found even at that stage they didn't have the knives, only bolt pistols! Was it that little blue summary card that both armies had in the box set? Checked and was surprised I still had that; nope, no knives there either! Where did we get this memory from?! Is it really just the fact that the models had little knife scabbards on??? This will now bug me for the rest of the day.

    • @kwest9747
      @kwest9747 10 місяців тому +4

      The Hand to Hand weapons section states it is generally assumed all models carry a dagger, sword or other similar weapon.

    • @1985slipstream
      @1985slipstream 10 місяців тому

      @@LRGCarter So defo a standard marine gets 1 d6 in CC and an ork with an axe and bolt pistol gets 2 ?

    • @colbillington
      @colbillington 10 місяців тому

      ​@@1985slipstreamif your marines (other than space wolf's) didn't manage to gun line the goffs coming towards them, then they deserved everything Gork gave them

  • @SebastianTrower
    @SebastianTrower 10 місяців тому +2

    The Bjorn/Abba reference though 😂😂😂

  • @TheGreaterGrog
    @TheGreaterGrog 10 місяців тому +1

    I kind of miss this system. You could kill some mid-high powered characters with basic orks or guardsmen if you could get a 6 to 1 fight thanks to the outnumbering bonus. 3rd kind of sucked how a single character with a 2+ would solo entire units with no threat aside from wasting its time, unless you had hidden powerfists.

  • @geistincarnate
    @geistincarnate 10 місяців тому +1

    2:35 this description is not helping to convince me that the two men in missionary position was the dealbreaker for you in MMA lol

  • @Zelinkokitsune
    @Zelinkokitsune 10 місяців тому +3

    The Simulations sir. And frankly the rule of "Whoever's not dead gets promoted!" Natural selection in combat once again. It's just like being a Space Marine Scout all over again!
    Pretty much the same way them new Chapters get Veterans even though they're brand new.

    • @SusCalvin
      @SusCalvin 10 місяців тому +3

      I assumed that most of the time when they make a new chapter, they split off a cadre from an existing oversized chapter. So the first generation of the new chapter (in normal 200 year space marine generations) will have officers, specialists and a veteran cadre of marines who were formerly ultramarines or something. They might be gifted a starter pack of minor relics and ships. Depends on how close ties the parent chapter keeps with all their little successor chapters.

    • @ObjectiveMedia
      @ObjectiveMedia 6 місяців тому

      Primaris suck sweaty ass

  • @illegalaryan823
    @illegalaryan823 10 місяців тому +1

    Part 3 of a 47 part series on 2nd ed. Yup sounds about right. Gods the game was strong then.

  • @1985slipstream
    @1985slipstream 10 місяців тому +2

    We used to use the rule that say all 6 gretchen would instanty die against a space marine captain but then add all the extra dice and +1s to the goff or warboss for the combat to happen. sped the combat up alot and was realistic

  • @leecoates3674
    @leecoates3674 10 місяців тому +1

    Reminds me of when I worked in a Hotel. There was a massive table in one of the cellars and my friend and I had a 6500 point game that lasted an entire week around work. Chaos allied with the Orks and were fighting Space Marines allied with lots of Imperial Guard. So many dice.

  • @ForTheJerusalem
    @ForTheJerusalem 10 місяців тому +2

    I loved this system in necromunda, can't imagine using it for squad vs squad combat.

    • @martinjrgensen8234
      @martinjrgensen8234 10 місяців тому

      It was bloody awful. And some characters where ludicrously broken. The harlequin Solitaire especially so

    • @rutgaurxi7314
      @rutgaurxi7314 9 місяців тому

      Based taste, fellow scum sucker.

  • @dantheultimate2497
    @dantheultimate2497 10 місяців тому +1

    Lots of Primaris Marines are old Space Marines who upgraded themselves through the Rubicon Primaris, that's why there are Primaris Veterans.

  • @bjwal6
    @bjwal6 10 місяців тому +1

    can we DISCUSS the fingernails at 4:24 ??

    • @OldenDemon
      @OldenDemon  10 місяців тому

      Oh wow, I hadn't noticed them until now.

  • @danh945
    @danh945 10 місяців тому +1

    I hope you do an episode dedicated to field saves. Nothing more satisfying than your character being mobbed in combat, killing most of the attackers, and then displacing away before being beaten down because you chose to parry a weak opponent's roll of a 1.

  • @8panthermodern2
    @8panthermodern2 10 місяців тому +1

    I saw this come up on my home screen and was ALL IN.

  • @zombieruss
    @zombieruss 26 днів тому

    Amazing video! The pics of bygone battles brought so much nostalgia, that's the warhammer 40k I loved.

  • @GheyForGames
    @GheyForGames 10 місяців тому +3

    God your scriptwriting is genuinely incredible

  • @hanng1242
    @hanng1242 3 місяці тому

    A big problem with the Talisman-style melee rules of 3nd edition was that the law of averages made having an Attack stat pf10 actually sort of bad. I found that the Avatar or a Bloodthirster rarely got critical hits because they kept getting cancelled out by fumbles. God forbid it was fighting against an IG commissar with a chainsword since that sword somehow could parry an Axe of Khorne larger than the Commissar himself.

  • @christinagrimwade8702
    @christinagrimwade8702 10 місяців тому

    As someone only just into double digits during 2nd edition the rules were... very confusing. They definitely wouldn't work at the scale modern 40k plays at.

  • @Proto1Dude
    @Proto1Dude 2 місяці тому

    "Faster than you can say, I don't think enough youtuber's have their own paint range." I thought murders could only be posted on liveleak.

  • @D3Fanatic
    @D3Fanatic 2 місяці тому

    To my understanding, older Space Marines can be Primaris in lore, they just have to again survive the surgery, which is probably easier for them as thier bodies are less likely to reject new gene-seed compared to a fresh acolyte.
    Titus in the Space Marine game sequel is one such character.

  • @ScottieScottie-uw4xs
    @ScottieScottie-uw4xs 7 місяців тому

    Zodgrod for the Orks was a beast in combat. His Grabba-stikk got to make one attack BEFORE combat that always hit on a 4+. If it hit, the target took a S8 hit that didn’t allow a save AND had their WS reduced to 0 for the ensuing combat. Took down Jain Zar quite a few times with him.

  • @iain-duncan
    @iain-duncan 3 місяці тому

    The question about primaris leadership is actually extremely silly if you think about it. Think about ww2 - how many of those leaders were as fresh as the troops beneath them? Many. And the novels touch on this, with the leaders being inexperienced and often chided and looked down on by the much older and more experienced squatties

  • @andyp2004
    @andyp2004 2 місяці тому

    So what you're telling me is 1000 points is perfect...

  • @rogerstewart5525
    @rogerstewart5525 10 місяців тому +1

    When I was a kid, we just played combat like in fantasy. I'm not sure my friend with the rulebook ever actually read it

  • @dtrainacomin
    @dtrainacomin 9 місяців тому

    Got lured in by the clickbait title so I could rant about how jank this is to play in reality, but... no, you covered it all pretty well. The good, the bad, the "best for small scale"... it's why my eyes cross whenever i see people talking about a big 50+ model game of MESBG.

  • @attemptedunkindness3632
    @attemptedunkindness3632 10 місяців тому +1

    I can understand the Primaris HQ thing from a lore perspective for one it's not like all (though many) Primaris of Mars just crawled out of a vat, some there trained/did operations for a considerable time according to themselves. Secondly, nothing is saying those Primaris Captains weren't firstborn who did the rubiconwhatever and became pasta primavera themselves.

  • @wheelcha1rman2
    @wheelcha1rman2 10 місяців тому

    The Primaris only chapters being the equivalent of combat toddlers has been raised in a BL book or two.
    Personally I think: giant man in tank armour go brrrr. Haha yay!

  • @auretioustaak6579
    @auretioustaak6579 10 місяців тому

    4:23 did me in. That bloke is smug as heck over his tiny little chaos warband and you aren't even drawn to the models but his massively over-lengthed finger nails of which one has snapped off and instead of cutting the bloody things, he's left them all long except for Mr unfortunate nail snappage over here. One has to wonder just why that happy long haired fellow was growing his nails stupidly long in the first place because they aren't exactly glamorous looking, just 100% distractionary.

  • @vlad78th
    @vlad78th 3 місяці тому

    Never liked the 2nd edition hth combat phase, I felt it neutered too much models with a lot of attacks increasing the possibilities of misshaps.

  • @ronwingrove683
    @ronwingrove683 10 місяців тому

    I charged a combat squad of Assault Space Marines into combat with a mob of genestealers once. An hour later they were all dead, but in my next turn the second squad massacred all the genestealers with massed bolt pistol fire.
    I never voluntarily went into combat again.

  • @gavinboyer4634
    @gavinboyer4634 8 місяців тому

    6:34 The answer I was given was that many of the marines Cawl pulled out of suspension had once been heresy and scouring era marines that he uplifted, some of which had achieved veteran status beforehand.
    Make of that what you will.

  • @walterdimmick653
    @walterdimmick653 7 місяців тому

    Having actually played 2nd edition at the time, my opinion from experience was that is was terrible and 3rd edition was a huge advance that was a dramatic change for the better.

  • @HorusHeresy1982
    @HorusHeresy1982 10 місяців тому

    God I forgot how much of a mess old editions were. Now I remember why I played WFB.

  • @andrewlaidlaw7975
    @andrewlaidlaw7975 8 місяців тому

    That's of course your only last model was a chaos Lord in terminator armour with all 4 marks of chaos with a 2+ save in hand to hand with guardsmen.
    As I was once in this position I only had my chaos lord left and my opponent had nothing strong enough to get through his armour & with the GW stare at the time close to closing it would be safe to say that my only character left would have a slow drawn out massive h2h assuming that my opponent didn't hold back the rest of his army. Although I cant remember what he had left exactly other than a load of guardsmen's

  • @onionhat745
    @onionhat745 9 місяців тому

    Look, Guardsmen that aren't Cadians! 2nd Edition was truly wild.

  • @Coproquim
    @Coproquim 6 місяців тому

    NGL, the 3rd ed style Assault phse was a massive improvement on 2nd, just a shame that they decided to throw the baby out with the bathwater with regard to the rest of the system

  • @westernfreedom5031
    @westernfreedom5031 5 місяців тому

    I remember I had Azrael and his command squad backed into a corner, against a wall and two rounds later the Tyrranid army was all but tabled!

  • @iain-duncan
    @iain-duncan 3 місяці тому

    Jain Zar sounds like the literal worst instance of GW game balance I have ever seen lmao

  • @Yurt_enthusiast7
    @Yurt_enthusiast7 10 місяців тому +1

    MESBGs variant of these rules is probably my favourite. It's a bit streamlined to work with larger battles but instil the same feeling of two warriors clashing, trying to find a opening.

  • @nikp246
    @nikp246 9 місяців тому

    Baywatch was on during the day you faker! :old:

  • @death2all79zx
    @death2all79zx 4 місяці тому

    @13:17, thank you for bringing up this series.

  • @mkaali
    @mkaali 10 місяців тому

    You speak way too fast with all the natural pauses removed.

  • @muixameta
    @muixameta 6 місяців тому

    Close combat probably was the worst part of 2ed 😂

  • @nathankuszewski4579
    @nathankuszewski4579 9 місяців тому

    They used the same system in Shadow war: armageddon

  • @trunkage
    @trunkage 10 місяців тому

    Ill gotten gains? I stole these gains fair and square

  • @Stabbiejoe
    @Stabbiejoe 10 місяців тому

    alright the cramp comment earned you my like

  • @andrewharper1609
    @andrewharper1609 8 місяців тому

    The combat phase was awful in 2nd ed.

  • @RiflemanMoore
    @RiflemanMoore 8 місяців тому

    So glad to have joined the hobby just in time to see the very tail end of 2nd edition. Equally happy to have found this channel. Off to purchase some merch, cheers.

  • @robotic-race
    @robotic-race 18 днів тому

    6:35 converted firstborn

  • @LegsWasHere
    @LegsWasHere 10 місяців тому

    Very funny vid, love it! :)

  • @DaveScurlock
    @DaveScurlock 9 місяців тому

    Your scripts are just so damn good!

  • @ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber
    @ChristianVonCarmian40kVtuber 10 місяців тому

    The lack of vertical engagement range in 8th edition made it possible to ignore enemies if you brought a trusts 1.5 inch box
    Now we have 5" vertical in 10th edition so the ork dreadnought can pull people through the ceiling of the building it is under

  • @theonlyrebel6332
    @theonlyrebel6332 Місяць тому

    primaris veterans were probably old veterans who went through the surgery, just because a person is primaris doesnt mean theyre new

    • @Grymbaldknight
      @Grymbaldknight 4 дні тому

      So, there were precisely zero Primaris Veterans, Dreadnoughts, or even Commanders when they all left Mars?

  • @reallyidrathernot.134
    @reallyidrathernot.134 10 місяців тому +1

    oh no the close combat rules were terrible, because you had to do that with EVERY model! Unit of 40 gretchin? Got half a day?

    • @campbellharris8999
      @campbellharris8999 10 місяців тому +2

      Pffft. A mere 15mins or so to work out grot jenga vs a blood thrister

    • @Medoway
      @Medoway 10 місяців тому

      As a Tyranids/Imperial Guard player from that era, I loved the details tbh :)

  • @akselolsson7576
    @akselolsson7576 9 місяців тому

    Just wonderful👌

  • @quinnswart9669
    @quinnswart9669 10 місяців тому

    oh yeah new vid!

  • @CDMJDMHHC
    @CDMJDMHHC 10 місяців тому

    power gloves lol

  • @2013Arcturus
    @2013Arcturus 10 місяців тому +2

    I KEEP ASKING HOW PRIMARIS HAVE VETERANS!
    Thanks you!

  • @Ninjat126
    @Ninjat126 6 місяців тому

    Kill Team '21 has a fun implementation that seems a little like this 2e one: both fighters roll attacks at the same time, successful ones cancelling each other out, so it's like they're actually exchanging swings and parries.
    In 8e/9e/10e 40k, weapon skill is just "melee accuracy" in the same way that Ballistic Skill is "ranged accuracy." It's actually really rare for a model to make itself harder to hit in close combat, at least in 10e.

  • @kerel995
    @kerel995 9 місяців тому

    Good video

  • @ssephi
    @ssephi 10 місяців тому +1

    I remember the Chaos Predator at @4:24 - Such a good model!

    • @demonstructie
      @demonstructie 10 місяців тому

      Have you also seen that man's finger nails?

    • @ssephi
      @ssephi 10 місяців тому

      @@demonstructie yes I have - I remembered them from the time too.

    • @VeritasAbsoluta
      @VeritasAbsoluta 9 місяців тому +1

      @@ssephi I believe that issue of White Dwarf described him as "the taloned hand of Chaos"

  • @tabletopsidekick
    @tabletopsidekick 9 місяців тому

    I could only watch for an hour before I got cramp. PAHAHA. That went under the radar! Well done pal. Your tone, pacing, execution and style is much appreciated. Keep up the good work.

  • @impguardwarhamer
    @impguardwarhamer 10 місяців тому

    Its funny watching this after reading the new legions imperialis rulebook, it seems both combat phases work very similarly

  • @jfwduffield1
    @jfwduffield1 7 місяців тому

    My memory of 2nd Edition is that special characters were often not allowed due to the power imbalances in the rules. Most of the 2nd Edition games I played in various shops prohibited them or used the models as proxies for their nearest regular equivalents. Vehicles were also often discouraged unless they were balanced in each side. Even as an Imperial Guard player I rarely got to use either.

  • @ChazTheYouthful
    @ChazTheYouthful 10 місяців тому

    That you only lasted hours watching grappling is why grappling is the most important fighting art. No, it doesn't get better, you just get used to it.

  • @SusCalvin
    @SusCalvin 10 місяців тому

    Sneaking in special rules and abilities on top of other special rules is a GW specialty. Sometimes entering a whole new chart just for one weapon or character. Warmaster did their best to avoid Herohammer. Heroes do not personally stab through a regiment of troops. The role of heroes and generals in Warmaster is to command and control troops, making sure they're moving forward in the right direction.
    Gorkamorka had a fun addition to assaults: Boarding a moving vehicle! When two ork vehicles are close, models can decide to board them on their turn. Either rolling their measly ork Initiative that sends at least half the boarders face down in the sand or cunningly rig their trukk with boarding ramps to make it automatically. The boarders would be in close combat range of all enemy passengers and crew, and the defenders got to decide who stepped up to face the challenger first. All the while, both vehicles were still moving as the brawl raged on in the back seat. The brawl otherwise works like a normal close combat assault duel, the attacking model is probably chosen for the task because it is a WS beast, but each defender adds to the chance to overwhelm them.
    As a side note, orks in Gorkamorka (but not grots and later diggas and muties) do not pin. An ork can be shot at with a shotgun or have a grenade blow next to them and still cheerfully run towards the enemy.

  • @-Markus-
    @-Markus- 4 місяці тому

    2:19
    There is something so soothing about seeing that amazing blood angels paintjob! Its so beautiful!

  • @summonersumnerus4364
    @summonersumnerus4364 10 місяців тому

    One of my fondest game memories is taking out Jain Zar with an Attack bike Multi Melta shot that also wasted a hovering Fire Prism. Her last wound lost when it detonated in her face. Glorious!

  • @RocketHarry865
    @RocketHarry865 10 місяців тому

    I think assault marines should be that they can take any standard space marine melee weapon but they to pay extra for it while Vanguard Veterans or their equivalents can take standard power weapons for free but up to two of them can upgrade to take a chapter specific relic weapon for extra cost

  • @itsallfunandgames723
    @itsallfunandgames723 10 місяців тому

    Ah, I was just thinking this weekend I wanted to relearn the rules to 2nd edition but I didn't want to actually have to read the rulebook. This is brilliant.