A Transformation of Compassion - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Baby Arc Part 17
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Dragon Ball Dissection December returns with Super Saiyan 4! Need any more be said than that? It's the transformation even people who hate GT love. But there's still a lot to discuss in regards to its meaning, its design, and whether or not it's the so-called "Super Saiyan of Legend." Ooh, fun stuff.
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Herms's Legend of the Legendary Super Saiyan of Legend Thread:
www.kanzenshuu...
You forgot the link from the description. Though I do like the form I like to call "Condensed Monkey", aka Super Saiyan 4. Now let's see if people will wonder that my comment is incorrect once the link is added to the description.
*C O N D E N S E D*
*M O N K E*
Hmmm monkee
Haha, I’m part of the process.
Hahaha silly monke
I'm helping!
Sudden new interpretation I’m down for. The Golden Oozaru is “the true Super Saiyan of Legend”, but by embracing his humanity and turning back to a humanoid form with the attributes of a beastly monkey, Goku’s Super Saiyan 4 is an evolved form of the legend, one that fights for something besides its own love for destruction. Yet another way to highlight the great hybrid Goku is: a Saiyan raised on Earth.
So basically SSJ4 is actual Super Saiyan 2.
And we'll call it "Super Saiyan 4 Super Saiyan"
@@kindlingkingI think ssj4 is the true super saiyan form and the others are mutations.
@@justinarzola4584 I'd say others are just incomplete versions of it, since they performed by saiyans without tails.
I was initially thinking of SSJ4 as true super saiyan as well, but if you think about it, Golden Oozaru would be more appropriate since it's the form we see in Vegeta's vision scene in Z, it's primal uncontrollable state that can devour it's user and turn them into wild beast. SSJ4 on the other hand is only achieved once a saiyan conquers and incorporates (think Jungian psychology) their inner beast, which lets them keep the power (or maybe even become stronger), but be completely in control. Which fits the bill for "ascended" super saiyan - a super saiyan, who triumphed over their beastial nature and uncontrollable rage through compassion and kindness.
i wish the GT Writers included SSJ4 Lore more outside of its Power Lore
.... Okay I admit, Baby slowly devolving into what he hates and only barely realizing it is one of the most interesting developments I have ever seen in a Dragon Ball villain.
There's some thematic merit to this, but I never liked how Baby's entire character degraded into nothing but another cackling bad guy whose sole purpose in life is to kill Goku, for whatever reason. Even going as far as killing his own followers, even though the latter should probably be more important to him. They're laying it on really thick and it's making it hard to care about the conflict at this point.
@@olserknamthis is why Frieza is the best Villan he feels the most Concistent
@@StevenJones851eh, consistent when he just feels villain el generico in terms of motives, not for me
@@aokyoutsuki7744 he had his Flaws but he's the only DB Villan to keep the Tension alive
@@StevenJones851 while others may not hold this against him, i will... Sometimes.
Freeza never had to deal with shenanigans like room of spirit n time training, fusion, instant transmission getaways and dealing with people comparable to his power if not higher.
For me at least, freeza just lacks a certain motive that pulls me in, hes just el generico evil, neither cell nor buu have a proper end goals, baby is the only one where his end goal isnt... Destruction of all things nor be stronkest in da uniberse
Wow i never realized that Even GT contradicted the whole Goku and Bulma haven't seen each other in 5 years. Both Goku and Bulma is in the beach picture
Dragon Ball as a whole is one big walking contradiction.
Ooh, nice catch!
Outside of the childish face in Trunks, which should just be seen as an art inconsistency, they all seem to be the outfits/ages at the End of Z. Meaning the picture takes at some weird zone between after Bulma arriving to Goku's place and the tournament.
Being a man knowing the instant transmission, it sounds weird that Goku wouln't go to see his friends.
I’m just gonna go out on a limb and assume that that was during the years with training Oob, because no way Goku just left his family when he can literally teleport.
He also says he hasn’t been home for dinner in a “few” years, not 5 or 10.
I heard once, either from a fan theory or some kind of databook, that the reason Super Sayian 4 turns Goku back into an adult, is because SS4 is simply so *powerful* it actually cancels out the wish made on Goku.
That is in equal parts stupid as it is awseome.
There is something of precedent there. They can't simply use Shenron to kill threats in the series because Shenron can't use his magic on beings more powerful than he is (this is later reasserted when Shenron can't teleport Goku back to Earth without Goku's consent). Presumably, being able to deage Goku in the first place, the red Shenron from the Black Star Dragonballs is more powerful than Goku. So when Goku goes Super Sayian 4 he outscales this red Shenron and gets his adult form back.
I've heard that and it never made any sense to me. If the form is so powerful it cancels out wishes... wouldn't that make it powerful enough to cancel the wish bringing Goku back to life?
@@someoneelse2384 Well SS3 apparently uses up the time limit that Fortuneteller Baba gave Goku somehow. Not that this is a problem for Freeza later on....
Like I said, as stupid as it is awesome
@@someoneelse2384 Well, the wishes only don't work if it's against the recipient's will, right? So if the wishes being cancelled is a possibility, then only a wish Goku didn't like would be reverted, like being a kid potentially (if it's making him any weaker, for instance).
That said, under that logic, I do think it'd only really makes sense if it were a wish that's continuously affecting him, and turning him into a kid doesn't really sound like that, however with normal Shenron apparently being completely unable to turn him back, it does come across as though it's some sort of curse, forcing him to stay a child, even in the face of alternative wishing magic, so under that lens, I could definitely see it. Usually, you'd think such a wish would just be a one time thing, reverting the state of his body to an earlier one, but that's clearly not what happened, since doing that would've super messed with his ki, and instead he's like a kid current Goku instead, so it's a bit strange from the get go.
Then again, if the wish is actively keeping him young, how would he have grown into an adult one hundred years later? Oh, well, I guess, if he just got strong enough in his base form, the same thing would happen? Or maybe it's not even that complicated, and it's just that the sole, like, extra gimmick the Black Star Dragon Balls have is that their wishes can't be forcibly undone, and he will grow up like normal after all, however it works such that it _has_ to happen naturally, unless, maybe, growing past their power lets you overcome it.
...But wait, would that make sense, since Piccolo dies and he stays a kid anyway? Like, what's powering the wish keeping him a child then, anyway? ...But on the other hand, the normal Dragon Balls are still supposed to keep you eternally young, immortal and the like, once they're gone, right? So maybe that really wouldn't matter.
...So uh, having said all that, the naked Goku party visions showing both main versions of him before he goes from one to another, reeally just makes it seem like it's something unique to the transformation. Hell, I wonder if a kid character transforming would grant them the same result, even.
@@someoneelse2384Going by this theory, SSJ4 clearly only cancels out the particular wish preventing it from emerging.
8:55 Oh boy the Dragon Ball wiki, my favorite hive of Dragon Ball conjecture and misinformation.
It's gotten a *bit* better in recent years, but it'll be a great day when the Kanzenshuu Wiki is fully functional.
The weirdest thing about it is when I gets something 100% wrong. Not "This was said in the dub" or "we assumed based on..." But when it says things like the "Double Demon Burst" attack isn't in the anime. When it is in the exact same story moment (Episode 25 of DBZ)
So this is the aclaimed first appearence of "furious Goerge".
wonderful
Super Saiyan 4 is my favorite Super Saiyan transformation without a doubt.
agreed its actually unique and feels like goku has reached his peek
I like that it's callback to the Sayain's legacy and Goku embracing it after years of rejecting it.
Agreed.
@@justinarzola4584it's basically Another Tie Back and Character Progression moment like Super Saiyan 1
6:55 Fun fact, according to Nakatsuru, the design of Super Saiyan 4 was partially inspired by Kabuki theater. The red eye markings came from Kabuki stage makeup and the shaggy hair came from the wigs worn by Kabuki actors during the Renjishi (Two Lions) dance.
Edit: I'm starting to think that some of you guys didn't click on "read more" before replying.
Man, the moment when Giant Ape Goku remembers when he explained to Pan that the ocean tastes salty because people pee on it, and this memory somehow makes him turn into Super Saiyan 4. What a really, really stupid moment.
I cry every time I watch it.
Idk. Sounds like something kid Goku would say
didn't goku say that fish pee in the sea and that's why it's salty?
I found the position very fitting and beautiful. It showed some of the naivety that Goku always had and that defined him and explained it very well to Pan, so that she understood it too.
I think they also wanted to show that Goku had a special connection with Pan. With Gohan, Goku was more or less a child himself and didn't have such feelings. at goten he wasn't alive.
With Pan he actually really started to act like a father/grandfather and have feelings like that.
Pan also loved Goku the most at the time, more than her own parents and that was the reason why she was so mad at him that he just ran away with Uub.
It's a heartfelt moment
18:45 goku gt fashion is pretty different but fun to get something new with him. I do agree with super that they gave up on his new outfit to fast. Even dragonball heroes gave him a variation of that suit that looks like a mix between his new outfit and z outfit. i feel the heroes outfit is the perfect middle ground for his outfit.
was always a big fan of his GT outfit. That radiated his own style and that he is now a master of the fighting himself and is no longer a student of anyone..
But it's now my second favorite outfit.
The one from Heroes is perfect. By far the best. especially since he also has his staff, it makes it particularly good.
Why Vegeta Baby Monkey's mouth doesn't move when he talks: It's too expensive. Mouth flaps on a flat face are cheap and easy to animate and don't deform the face. Longer animal snouts are a whole other thing. There's defined teeth and tongue and the whole works (think Moro from Princess Mononoke). Even crocodile style up and down mouth movements are too much work/time in a production like this. You'll see it a lot in other anime if you're looking for it; animals becoming telepathic for no reason.
Holy shit this makes so much sense
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU for pointing out Baby's utter hypocrisy as a villain. Wish you would've brought up his blasting away Trunks and the rest for the "terrible crime" of "having no faith in him" i.e. showing great concern for him while he was faking his having trouble battling Uub/Oob. Side note: that photograph is the only time Bee the Dog appears in GT outside Buu's reminiscing. Guess he passed of old age…
Just one obscure bit of trivia that has nothing to do with the episode but still. You mentioned in your Cell arc video that there’s no evidence of Piccolo murdering anybody in the manga, and since that series followed the manga, you wouldn’t have felt the need to bring it up. But the anime version depicting Piccolo as a newly hatched kid (the last time we see him like that before he grows up) shows him standing on the water while eating fish and soon sinking a boat with two hapless sailors still onboard. It’s never explicitly shown that the two died before the scene cuts away, but unless there was an islet nearby (and no there’s no indication of that at all), it’s safe to assume they’re boned. Hence Piccolo in the anime did have a couple of victims that his manga counterpart did not. Just thought I’d bring it up before you get to Piccolo's "departure" from the series in this GT review.
While it's great that the photo in 4:42 is faithful to the color design of DBZ's epilogue rather than GT's, what's most unique is that the photo shows the first and apparently still only time N18 has ever officially worn a crop top / exposed her midriff. Considering how so many of her fanarts (even the non overly sexualized ones) feature her in midriff-baring styles despite her wardrobe being almost always very modest / unrevealing compared to other female DB characters, it's interesting that it has actually happened this one time.
I’ve never minded SSJ4’s magic pants. After the Metamoran Fusion creating pants and, going even further back, Piccolo’s patented ‘Clothes Beam’, the magic monkey pants just fit in.
Yeah, no one wants to see SS4 Goku fight with no pants on.
@@mechajay3358 I mean, there are probably some people who want that, but we don’t talk about them
We learned about Goku & Chi chi's kink in last episode, now Blooma & Vegeta's. I expect we get insight into Kuririn & 18's in the next DBD.
Probably into BDSM, with 18 as the dominant.
"I hate Mondays"
~Great Ape Baby, probably~
"Big, fat, hairy deal."
It's kind of interesting how two of the most popular villains from Dragon Ball continuations, Baby and Goku Black, both have this internal struggle with hypocrisy at their core. I'd say Baby does it better, though, since becoming more of a violent warlord like the Saiyans is more easily appreciable while Goku Black reveling in his mortality doesn't really offer as noticeable of a progression for his character beyond him becoming more of a masochist.
I don't know about that. They both degraded as they went on, but I like that Zamasu at least stayed consistently arrogant and self-righteous in his personality up until the end, while Baby just sort of petered out into a big dumb monster to fight. And it fits thematically, but it quickly gets boring as there's not much you can do with that.
Baby died like a bitch. Zamasu took an entire time-line with him and was laughing up until the very end. Zamasu/Goku Black is superior and you can't really argue that.
I mean, perhaps the chemicals that catalyze the Ōzaru transformation came back when Goku’s tail got pulled back out, and that’s why he grew to the size of an adult as a Kozaru. (Yeah, I’ve taken to calling Super Saiyan 4 “Kozaru”; anyone disagree?)
13:18 you know Goku was loving each and every single second of the ass beating he delivered to Baby after hearing Bulma say that to him. He saw what Baby's influence had made his first friend become and that hurt him more than any physical blow in the entire arc. I think that's another reason why Baby is an amazing villain since he managed to hurt Goku in a way very few people in the series can: IN THE FEELS, WITHOUT KILLING SOMEONE. If only they put more focus on that, but the scenes we get are still nice.
I love the Baby Vs Goku fighting. Unlike a lot of DB nowadays I like how the fight has stopping points to allow for stories.
Totally Not Mark and MF were right about how modern DB struggle to integrate story into a fight so it's not just constant action that could mostly be skipped.
The Granolah Arc in Super was sooooo bad about that. Not to mention the Tournament of Power just being a bunch of no story fights until Universe 11 stepped up and they threw out some half-assed sob story for Jiren.
I'd argue while better GT has a similar problem
At its best OG DB just had the story be told through the fights AND through the breaks equally
I'll take fight THEN story for break, but all of DB is a story after all, so ideally, all of it should be treated that way
They spent an entire YEAR on a tournament with no stakes with characters with no personalities, backgrounds, and goals fighting.
Eh... I wouldn't mind if the story kept flowing naturally, but I feel the fight still gets really dragged out and repetitive. The x10 Kamehameha is a good example of dragging out the fight with pointless filler. This is what I mean when I say GT took on some of the worst traits of Z, though it's admittedly not as bad here as it would get in the next two arcs.
Something I just realized, literally just now: Super Saiyan 4 Goku looks quite a bit like the mysterious unknown "Saiyan Knife Lady" seen in DBZ episode 20
Pure coincidence, I'm sure, because IIRC Nakatsuru said that Super Saiyan 4 is inspired by kabuki theatre of all things. In fact, it's kabuki actors you can credit/blame for the eyeliner look.
To be honest, I think I would like the eyeliner more if they went FULL kubuki with it, giving him full facial makeup. With just the eyeliner, he looks super edgy.
I’ll be honest, I never thought of the SSJ4 eyes as having eyeliner. I just thought the red, being the same as his body fur, implied that his eyelids were hairy now
Now that we're here I can finally say that, this should've been an excuse to make Goku an Adult again, him being a kid became pointless after this so why not just make him an adult and move on
I like to think Goku getting his adult body back in this state is a subtle implication that this form has manually surpassed the power of Black Star Shenron. Since Shenron can’t grant wishes to affect beings stronger than it, then the logic is that this form, conditionally arrived, has power greater than Shenron, so the wish Pilaf made is canceled out for the time being, so Goku becomes an adult again in this state.
I think it's more plausible to believe that since SS4 is a transformation linked to the Great Ape, which makes the person grow a lot, it makes perfect sense for little Goku to grow too.
My interpretation is that SSJ4 brings its user to their apex, which is why Gokuh grew older and Vegeta became younger.
The implication of SS4 is that Goku is *the* legendary Super Saiyan, because Vegeta managed to achieve this form by "cheating", only Goku by the "random" circunstances of becoming a kid again, growing his tail back, and going super saiyan managed to do it, adults saiyans cant grow their tails back, and pure saiyan cant go super saiyan when they are kids, the implication, again, is that Goku is the one and only saiyan who could achieve this form.
@@Jose-se9pu Adult Saiya-jins tails do grow back, Vegeta confirmed it soon after his was cut off by Yajirobe.
@@leonardoalvarenga7572then why didn't Vegeta's Tail Grow Back after he Healed from his Ass beatings from the Z Fighters Jumping Him???
You forgot to put the thread in the description btw.
The pants aren't new, they're just the pants Goku had on before the Dragon Balls shrunk them down, and SSJ4 seems to revert his body to before it got shrunken down. Guess that goes for the pants, too.
The thing that I've always liked the most about Super Saiyan 4 is that it makes Goku grow up. It's such a cool concept for a transformation.
It's the Fierce Deity Mask!
The interesting thing is that the first super Saiyan and super Saiyan 4 are quite similar, both transformations are the opposite of what we've been told. Super Saiyan was told to us that the Saiyan has to be a ruthless warrior to be able to achieve the transformation and super Saiyan 4 is also the opposite of "hatred", "love", the opposite of what we witness to actually achieve a form beyond their limits or evolve.
Dang I was hoping for a GT super Saiyan 4 TFS and MistareFusion collab like Totally Not Mark got for the Buu Bits. Maybe before GT dissection concludes? :)
We made it boys.
Magic pants are one thing, but when vegeta achieves the form it changes his fingerless gloves to just gloves and back to fingerless gloves when he loses the form against omega shenron
Man, the anime staff really wanted to make Piccolo more and more irrelevant, huh? ...Actually, later when he gets a role again, they do literally send him to hell permanently, don't they? World's greatest Piccolo haters, apparently. /j
It probably would've been less weird if there wasn't a straight up on-screen reversion that shows his outfit morphing.
@@petruciosxd1374 piccolo is the new chao zu! ^^
I mean the fusion dance nonsencially comes packaged with a new outfit so why not this 5th Saiyajin transformation too.
@@rynobehnke8289 that's a magic dance, comes with magic clothes compared to a supposedly natural transformation
I'm doing my part by being the comment that's reminding you to put the Herms Super Saiyan of Legend thread in the description! I have not checked if anyone else has commented this, because I am lazy.
Gonna be honest, I never understood why people hated "magic pants SSJ4" when fusion literally gives you a magic vest, pants and belt (yes, I know the in-universe reason why, Metamoran) and characters like Piccolo and Kaioshin have literal clothes beams.
Same to be honest, magic pans and transform into adult, it's like "It's transformation magic, don't question it, just accept it".
I mean, these are all literally magic. In universe, I mean. These are magical people doing magical things (even Piccolo, he is a demon). Sayans never did such a thing, in fact, their non-tearing clothes were always explicitly technological (and they consistently end up naked otherwise).
To be clear, I don't hate magic pants SSJ4. I honestly don't care. But that is largely because I don't take the show very seriously. If I did I probably would be annoyed it made random changes for no reason.
@heatth1474 its a random change that doesn't change the show in any way. Complaining about it whether you take the show seriously or not is just silly.
Itd be like complaining Goku gets his eyebrows back after turning back from ssj3 or his face structure turns back to normal after ssj3. Both of these are just as ridiculous as the pants but don't matter at all (and in case of ssj4 I'll take magic pants over adult goku being naked cause he destroys his kid pants)
Yeah, same here.
@@youare5907Yeah and there are people that call Super Sayian 4 bad because of "magic " pants, like what do you want see him naked) Last time I no one but the Kai"?'s and Piccolo can clothes beam. Even then making a little a scene of Goku getting a bigger pair of pants would just break the tension of how its trying to tell a story.
Good to hear that your voice is mostly back. But I can hear your voice is not even using it's full power. I am looking forward to hearing your voices true power in the next video.
I remember after the recent Broly movie came out, there was a line in there along the lines of "he's using the power of the Great Ape, but remains in human form", or something. Almost immediately i started seeing people claiming that it was "Super reinventing SSj4."
Well they're right
Welcome back to "Dragon Ball Dissection December" now with less liquid sex!!
I wish the series did more with the implications of Baby literally becoming everything he hates
20:05 Is that the Resurrection F Goku look? Or am I still alone in liking that look...
It is. After the Tournament of Destroyers Goku just swaps back to an old outfit for no reason (minus nostalgia bait). Same for Vegeta. It’s such a shame too, those looks were great.
@@ningenslayer6306 So happy knowing I'm not alone in liking that Goku. It just feels more "light and free". Goku doesn't need his weighted clothes anymore.
So, that's why they call it the Skeleton Dome! I get it now!
16:37 Honestly when I first watched this scene as a kid I thought Baby had infected Goku. Goku even mentioned his mouth wasn't moving. This was 1 for 1 when Baby had infected Vegeta.
19:20 Viz Mr. Popo.
So I’m learning Japanese and am not fluent yet, but what I‘ve found peculiar about Goku’s 10x kamehameha is that he pronounces the “10x” as “juubei” rather than the more correct pronunciation “juubai” (pronounced like jew-bye), which would be written as 十倍. I’ve always been confused because no other sources I know of has “bei” be an alternate reading of 倍 and the Dragon Ball Wikia writes down the kana as the “juubai” reading, so I thought I kept mishearing the pronunciation until you too read out Goku’s move as “juubei.”
I would only assume this is an aspect of Goku’s “hillbilly” dialect and that the Wikia is again providing incorrect information.
Yeah, you're absolutely correct. Part of Goku's dialect means he often pronounces "ai" sounds as "ei" sounds. If memory serves, it's more common in the anime than the manga.
Ah, that's an interesting detail then!@@MistareFusion
I don't know about you but Goku's screams under the Oozaru roars can be seen as him trapped in the mind of his beastly nature.
He only transformed twice before thst point when he was 12, he is now in his 50's (mentally anyway) with a more developed, experienced life.
Similar to how Gohan's half saiyan half human blood helped him listen to reason when he transformed against Vegeta, Goku is now in a more powerful version of the Oozaru form, which he struggles to hold true to himself.
Only after gaining a reminder of his life on earth and his family does his earthling mind take over his Saiyan nature.
Even Vegeta who had complete control of his old ape form, struggled to control himself in this one, and the reward for controlling yourself in this form is SSJ4.
So Goku's screams while in Golden Oozaru seem more sad and painful to me under that interpretation.
What do you think of my theroy, Lance?
Happy DBCember part 3
The most shocking thing about this installment was "he becomes like Garfield but everyone can hear him." Dragon Ball Garufirudo Tsufurujin
re toei getting false ssj’s aura right: ssj aura was always white in toriyama’s colored pages. i’m under the impression ssj’s gold aura was astroturfed by toei to keep things somewhat visually consistent with their lord slug depiction.
Everyone always be talking 'bout the magic pants, but really Goku's whole outfit is nagic. Like, it's seems to almost sort be based on his standard GT outfit, but the colors all change. Blue wristbands instead of pink. Blue anklebabds instead of white anklewraps. Even the pants themselves are a different shade of yellow. Maybe just l8ke Goku always does he learned to mimic someone else's technique, specifically Piccolo's "clothes beam!"
As for the form itself, I used to loath and despise SS4. In particular I hated how it looked nothing like the previous forms, not even a standard Oozaru. The red/pink fur seems to come out of nowhere.
While all of those facts remain somewhat true, my overall opinion has pulled a 180 in this post DBS world where, yes, it is so refreshing to have a form that is totally unique and not just another pallet swap. It's an opinion that even carries over to Xenoverse, where my saiyan character actual regards the use of god ki as a apathetic cruch for tailless chumps, while considering SS4 to be instead the true pinnacle of evolution for a proper saiyan warrior.
I'm surprised we've never seen a form of Super Saiyan 4 with god ki in promotional material, I mean they even gave Black a Rosé form kind of after 3 that's not 4.
Weird bit of trivia: the Super Famicom game Dragon Ball Z: Super Saiya Densetsu contains unused portraits of Great Ape Gohan and Vegeta colored gold like a Super Saiyan, nearly 5 years before the transformation first officially appeared in GT.
When it comes to goku becoming an adult in ssj4, head cannon is that while in the form, it puts you in your prime age wise. At least in my opinion, vegeta looks a bit more like his z self when ssj4 (thoigh that could be the writers just wanting to undo his initial design even more)
I dont know why the fans took everything vegeta says to heart when he was only a little brat when his daddy got smacked around by frieza and his species was mostly wipe out, he doesnt know anything about the past or biology of the saiyans yet the fans and TOEI wants treat him as the in-universe wikipedia of dragon ball.
Not to mention all the times he is being wrong about everything....
tbh I like the concept, that Babi become the very thing, he despises. He hates Sayai-Jins and their Oozaru transformation, but in the end ending as an Oozaru, to compete with Goku. How ironic. This is one of the reason, I like Zamasu in DBS. Even he becomes the very thing, he despises. This time only ugly and disfigured.
Lance likes Goku's Resurrection F outfit?
Honestly is a nice look for him. I can't fathom why Toei ever bothered to revert back to the older Kame outfit
Super Saiyan 4... frustrates me. The situation with it for me is that it is really damn cool in everything BUT the main series. I remember catching glimpses of this form way back in the day when random clips of GT were my first exposure to Dragon Ball. It was... odd seeing a teeny blonde kid grow his hair out and then turn into a monkey man but there was always something about SS4 that stood out to me. Then my first time being exposed to GT fully would be through the game Budokai Tenkaichi 2 where the story is streamlined to accommodate the lack of certain characters and in many ways it cuts out the fluff of GT for a much more blazing and satisfying affair and Super Saiyan 4 was always portrayed very well. Then I get to the series and to be fair, the Japanese version's transformation works beautifully, especially with the music where it's one of the few times the GT score really elevates a moment. I also think the design is certainly striking though I'm personally not super fond of it.
Then... it peeters out so quickly. There's something about how GT engages with Dragon Ball's typical structure that often results in it feeling simultaneously rushed and painfully slow and this fight really emphasizes that. Thinking back to Dragon Ball's best, what made Goku's utter teardown of Freeza so satisfying was how up until that point, Freeza was the aggressor with there never really being a moment the heroes had the full upper hand. Super Saiyan was a shock to the system but for the moment one can feel good about it seeing as how Goku is utterly pummeling Freeza and clearly putting the fear into him that he was putting into others. With Baby? Like a lot of GT fights, they feel like bad wrestling matches. The kind where the result is so blatantly telegraphed and no one is trying to sell that it's not going to be that it leaves me with a lack of investment. Goku's pummeling of Baby feels so limp and when coupled with Baby just getting an Oozaru form? We get the start of what I truly don't like about SS4 that will come up time and time again.
This form is the most jobbed Super Saiyan form of all time for me. Every time Goku chooses to bring it out, it suffers what is to me an embarrassing defeat and it gets to the point where I seriously question why he even bothers. Then again, a lot of it isn't even the case of people being more powerful but rather he keeps making stupid decisions that I'm not get into because we're not at those points yet so all I'll say is it involves a buff android and Goku deciding to feed into an advantage rather than avoiding it. If Baby's transformations and even him to a degree are emblematic of GT's poor designs? SS4 is emblematic of its wasted potential because everything going into it is great. Watching this fully for the first time left me so pumped, thinking this would be when GT would turn itself around... and then the crippling disappointment settled in when it was clear how fleeting that feeling would be.
What does "Ten times Kame Hame Ha" even mean? The power of a Kame Hame Ha wave isn't set at a certain amount but it has always depended on the user. I'm pretty sure that a Buu Saga Kame Hame Ha is many many times stronger than a Pilaf Saga Kame Hame Ha, so what's the point? It's just a Kame Hame Ha made by a stronger Goku.
Sounds like a Kamehameha from his current level but multiplied by ten after that, which... Definitely can't be what it actually is, that'd be far too powerful. Some people take it to mean it's either just as strong as or not that much stronger than a regular Kamehameha, and is really just cool name that indicates he's 10x stronger than Super Saiyan 3 or the Golden Great Ape, which... Uh, well, he might be? I dunno. Regular Great Ape is 10x, not sure if that'd be a coincidence, but...
I assumed it was a stronger version of it like the Super Kame Hame Ha before it
I presume its the same deal as with the Super Kamehameha were its only quality is that Goku put propotionally more power into it than he usually does for a Kamehameha so a Kamehameha times 10 would be 10 times the proportional energy input of Goku's normal usage of the move (meaning Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha that releaes all of ones power at ones is still the strongest varient)
I really like Super Saiyan 4 but it always bugged me that it was a consequence of gaining sanity as a Golden Oozaru, which should really be its own thing. Actually it's weird that for Baby Vegeta, he can just control it and he doesn't automatically become a SS4 because of being able to control it. Did I miss something?
I think they throw out something about Baby's tsufurian cells mucking up the biology and preventing the transformation.
Honestly can't recall if justification that's in the show, in the English dub, or just fan logic applied after the fact.
@@Hydrogue I recall reading something about it being due to the fact that Baby was only controlling Vegeta's body (which follows the same reasoning for why Baby kept his consciousness), which therefore meant Vegeta never actually gained control of the form, as he was just dormant. That said, I have no memory of what the actual given explanation is. Of course, at this point, at least _one_ of these must be either a dub thing or made up.
Edit: another comment attributes your explanation to Bulma in episode 55, so, definitely that one.
Lol hilariously, the dub included a line from goku and vegeta baby, explaining why vegeta baby can talk without moving his mouth,
Yeah. Something about Baby using telepathy.
@@adama.7735 yeah he explains that it’s vegetas body that turned giant ape, not baby, so vegetas body isn’t actually talking so baby is speaking telepathicly to goku
I'm surprised you didn't bring up the biggest flaw of SS4, the one thing that totally ruins the look, the singular detail that indicates its lack of quality:
It has no nipples. Not a single depiction of Super Saiyan 4 in official media has nipples, even today in Dragon Ball Heroes.
In the same way that Super Saiyan 3 burns up the eyebrows, Super Saiyan 4 burns off the nipples.
HOT TAKES
SSJ4 has the best transformation hair.
The scene where Goku looks in the mirror and it breaks is amazing.
The pink sky and Baby's name both work because they show the irony of someone having an innocent idea of wanting to help a deceased race but there goal is corrupted by there need to survive and win.
The anime staff love the idea that Sayajin primordial force is linked to the Ozaruu, the did the same with the Ssj3 transformation after all, a relink to the ozaruu primal power. Its logical they go all the way out once they are in charge.
Okay, so the thing about oozaru talking without his mouth moving is simply to make it easier for the animators. If you have ever watched Naruto, all the tailed beasts talk like this too, and it is super jarring. Japanese animators cut corners by not animating the mouths of giant talking animals.
While that's probably the real reason, it does feel a little weird in *this* context, considering Great Ape Vegeta still had mouth movements when he talked.
Doesn't exactly hold up to scrutiny when Bleach's Komamura is a werewolf with a fully moving mouth and lower profile, lower budget anime can still afford to animate animal mouths
I've never understood why Baby didn't also transform into a SS4 analogue, since Goku and Vegeta just need to be in control of their Golden Oozaru to automatically transphorm, and Baby was in control.
The “no tail” explanation made sense, but then he gets one for no reason. GT is its own worst enemy man.
I guess because Baby’s the one piloting Vegeta’s body and it needs to be Vegeta doing it himself?
In episode 55 of GT Bulma theorizes that Baby's cells being a foreign agent in a Saiyan's body was what was inhibiting the transformation into SSJ4 on that occasion.
@@BlasckkThat's certainly an explaination, but i'm not sure why when he seems perfectly capable to turn into an Oozaru.
@@Darkflo23SSJ4 baby would beat up goku, so the plot saved him
You did actually forgot the link 😅
Since we now have arrived at the reveal of Super Saiyan 4 this allows me a chance to share my experience with this transformation.
Back in 2017 which was when I was being introduced to this series, I remembered looking at the different transformations and being befuddled when seeing Super Saiyan 4 for the first time, and my initial reaction was…
“Wait that thing is a Super Saiyan 4??? What the heck? That thing doesn't even look anything like a Super Saiyan transformation! why does it have pink fur over it’s body? Why is it’s hair black? Why does it look like it has eyeliner?” That basically gave me a negative impression when I first saw the design out of context since it was so far removed from what I considered a Super Saiyan transformation to look like, and for a while it was possibly my least favorite transformation in terms of design… but then after I caught up watching Dragon Ball Super and then watching GT for the first time… I then turned around and ended up really liking the design.
Part of this was because I was unsatisfied with a lot of the transformations introduced in Super since most of them where just pallet swaps of the regular Super Saiyan transformation but without any real distinction like with the SS2 and SS3 transformations, and even the way how they got the transformations didn’t felt earned or satisfying. But what really made me came around to liking SS4 was of how Goku got the transformation.
Unlike other transformations, it isn’t earned by getting angry, tapping into a hidden power or through a ritual, instead it all has to do with Saiyan biology such as how they transform into great apes through the use of their tail.
And so when Goku transforms into a great ape but with his Super Saiyan powers he ends up turning into a Super Great Ape and would have remained that way unless if his tail was cut off, but due to his strong connections he has with planet Earth and those closest to him such as his granddaughter Pan he manages to regain his sentience back and manages to regain proper control thus unlocking a new transformation, one that ties in more into his Saiyan Biology and why it has a more primal appearance.
And so once I saw the context and how it tied in more closely to his Saiyan biology I then came around thinking “Hey you know this actually isn’t that bad.” and overtime the more I thought about this transformation the more I ended up liking it. So much so that it eventually became my second favorite transformation behind the look of SS3, since I like how the design has a unique identity of its own that is completely different other transformations both before and after it.
And why it’s also one of the few reasons why I ended up favoring DBGT over DB Super.
Super Saiyan 4, the form that virtually everyone likes. Everyone else has already said why this form works so well so I'll just add that Bandai and later Bandai Namco cashed on this popularity, moreso especially with Dragon Ball Heroes by giving most Saiyans this form...including and unfortunately Broly.
I think SSJ4 is a reference to Son Wukong from Journey to the West. In that story, Wukong is trapped in a furnace or boiling pot. However, he is so tough, that the process turns his fur gold and eyes red. I really like how GT tries to honor both the lore of Dragonball, and the tale that inspired the series.
You really think GT’s writers actually thought of that?
Yes. Journey to the West is a traditional story among Asian cultures, and Dragonball was inspired by it. Goku has the flying cloud and a quarterstaff. In Z, Goku also eats fruit that is supposed to grant immortality, something which Wukong did.
The final episodes of GT refers strongly to events and people throughout the three anime series. Someone on staff was thinking about the history of Goku, and cared. They are not Toriyama, far as memory and affection for Dragonball goes. @@bgvo4373
I like the design of super sayan four, but I wish the fur was a different color. Maybe white, like the fan made ssj5.
To me, it makes sense that he just got the name great ape from vegeta's mind
16:47
I love Goku's line in the funimation dub: "I would _never_ knowingly harm the innocent!"
I love the mohawk of Baby‘s golden ape form.
7:12 there it is. The reason I believe super saiyan 4 exists. So Toei can have it's cake and eat it too
I do really like the 4 episode stretch of GT here. Oozaru Goku's rampage to the Super Saiyan 4 transformation is really well done and emotional. Super Saiyan 4 also is a nice looking trasformation that does a good job of making itself very distinct from other super saiyan forms. I also love Bulma, she has been the show's longest hero with Goku and it's interesting having her be a villain and obstacle against Goku. That scene where Goku looks at Bulma and then at the smug Baby after she tells him off is so good! Also Baby's descent into being just as bad as the saiyans really comes together and I love how he doesn't even become a Great Ape of his own will but because Bulma makes him. This is probably my favorite portion of GT.
What's also interesting is that Bulma takes the position of the Tuffle and uses her intelligence and science to defeat the Saiyan Goku.
Back then they didn't make it. This time they use the science and strength of the Saiyans and Tuffle. So the both ways to finally defeat the last Saiyan and thus fulfill the revenge.
I see some argue that Super Saiyan 4 NEEDS "magic pants", that we "can't have Goku fight while naked", but...there would be no problem with it if the lower lower half of his body is at least as furry as the upper half.
As long as it's not drawn in a way that makes it look like red bodypaint, we wouldn't register him as naked.
So Nozawa inspired Justin Cook to do his weird Goku Oozaru yells in the Dragon Ball dub.
Yeaaaah
Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube
Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good
Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube
Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
The dub omitted the voice actor from the Oozaru altogether, keeping the sounds like the classic version.
hey, mate, you didn't put that link in the description???
2:42 "Running for my life sure does help with my cholesterol."
I swear that one guy with the derpy smile juxtaposed to everyone else 😂.
No, no magic pants aside, let's talk about them!
This transformation was the only reason to play Dragonball Final Bout on PS1.
Wow December does fly fast indeed! Now for the Big...Kinda Dumbish....Ending of the battle with a rampaging Baby who at this point is another Diet Freeza villain...said it again and I still stand it.
Wow MistareFusion your voice doesn’t sound like a radio salesmen
I still hated SSJ4 tbh
Maybe Oozaru Baby is a Pokémon from the Pokéani movies and speaks telepathically
Garfield is the most powerful telepath
Garfield is the most powerful telepath
Yeaaaah
Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube
Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good
Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube
Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
God, GT really feels like fanfiction, dosn't it? For all it's faults, I am glad that Super has taken it's place as the DB sequel anime
Meh both have their strengths and faults.
Both play it to safe.
Truthfully GT is still canon just as a alternate timelines.
Super literally has a pink Super Sayian 😂
@@mrboerger1620 When it comes to Dragon Ball, there is no "true canon"
Pants magic pants
Jump magic jump
SSJ4 is better than every form in modern dragon ball with maybe UI being its only competition.
Really? Two base forms recolours with a "cool" aura? The concept was already used in the first season during Goku's training with Popo. "Emptying the mind thing" has always been a thing. DBS just took that (although Goku already knows it but sadly DBSku is not the Goku we know so he forgot everything about martial arts) and made it into a vague "more deeper than instinct" state, and despite all the "foreshadowing" Goku had to absorb a freaking Genki Dama to use it... It is nowhere near SS4.
@@mistre_apheraWell said. UI entirely gets by on cool choreography, and I say this as someone who likes the form.
Even UI doesn't come close tbh
A few months ago I saw episode 34 on TV and I didn't remember how emotional it was, like... damn.
The little moment where Bulma tells Goku to go to hell and then he tells Baby that he'll pay for it is so cool.
As I said in the last video, until episode 35 the story was going... "fine", when the big ape Baby appears, the episodes drag a little bit.
Good video!
Did mistarfusion say he liked ssj 4?!?! Christmas came early this year
For real though I love ssj4 and always have. I still don't like the name. Kinda wish it was called primal or something. Either way your justification makes sense. It's just what Goku calls the forms. Love this form🎉
I remember having and AMV on my phone of the SS4 transformation with a metal song and it was sick AF
eaaaah
Let's get this video to a lot of views in the first hour so that it gets love from youtube
Algorithm bless this video which i liked even before watching it because it's that good
Seriously, sometimes i end up pissed off because i can't like it again after watching it, fix that youtube
Lots of words lots of engagement, yadda yadda
There is a notion i heard somewhere that SS4 is an adult because goku had become stronger then the black star shenron, so it couldn't change him anymore like how our shenron couldn't nake the artificial humans, human
I disagree with the notion that Goku just got aged up because that contradicts the wish. As far as I am aware, the change in clothes were just a design choice by GT staff, not magical cloth beam so it makes little to no sense that Super Saiyan 4 can magically negate it. What is more likely is that like with EVERY Super Saiyan form, Super Saiyan 4 is a genetic mutation that combines the already mutated Super Saiyan with Primitive Ozaru (A combination of evolutionary traits & devolutionary). Goku is not an adult, it's just that his body is physically mature and has the adult features but he is still a child. In technicality, he is and I don't even remember if any of the characters who knows Goku says he is but even then, it'd only be by technicality and not in the literal sense.
Dragon Ball GT premiered here in Canada in the autumn of 2003. During the preceding summer, I saw a magazine with a feature hyping up GT. It spoiled the Golden Great "Monkey," Super Saiyan 4, and all the bad guys. So dumb.
Super Saiyan 4 looks so good. Although i think it would look better if the fur was golden and the hair black.
The red color is a bit weird and comes out of nowhere, still looks dope though.
I much prefer this over Super endless recolors.
👇 Promo>SM
☃️❄️DBDD🎉
This is the first DB content i remember ever seeing on Nickelodeon about 10 years ago. I thought the Great Ape was Super Saiyan 3. I was very very confused
By the way, i think its one of your most beautiful title for a dragon ball dissection you came up with, a transformation of compassion is accurate AND beautiful ! Great job.
GT writers hate Piccolo so much he is even excluded from the beach party, as far DBS my bet is they change Goku's clothes because Toriyama wanted, after all the arc they change them back is the one with Goku Black, and his original gi looks better in dark colors.
Am I the only one who does not like Super Saiyan 4 and finds it kinda goofy looking?