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Is Goku a Hero? - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 3!
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- Опубліковано 4 бер 2018
- Upon receiving knowledge from the future that Dr. Gero's Artificial Humans will destroy everything they hold dear, our heroes decide... to basically just let him do it. Is this the dumbest decision ever made, or is it completely in line with their established characters and motivations? Is Goku a hero or a martial artist? Or an idiot?
Another way to make the team look less like assholes is for them to ask Shenlong where Dr. Gero is only to get told that he doesn't exist anymore (since he turned himself into the Artificial Human no.20).
Damn, that's actually a really cool idea. That'd be a neat mystery/reveal.
How to make DB 10x better!
People would still find a way to complain
Damn, that would actually be a little creepy. I love it.
Also the dragon can't work on anyone more powerful than the creator so he already could have been android 20 when Trunks arrived thus making him vastly more powerful than Kami.
How much do you want to bet that Toriyama doesn't even remember Roshi's speech
You know he doesn't
May he rest in peace, but I bet he didn't remember anything he had written a month ago
It’s crazy seeing how much hatred this guy gets from westerns yet is actually respected as he should be by Japanese fans
@@LegendXD00 Where did you get hatred from? It's just criticism, the man is an idol in the west just as much as he is in Japan.
@@axllow3914 Maybe because of the so called “criticism” being nothing more than a thinly veiled attempt to hate his work any chance westerners get?? If you go to any form of social media dragon ball is wildly hated for simply existing by a majority of anime fans in the west and treat toriyama as if he’s an idiot that accidentally “struck gold”. The only reason he’s considered an “idol” in the west is because of his passing but before then, people didn’t hesitate to belittle his capabilities as a writer. I’m not saying every anime fan in the west hates him but I am saying fans can’t even say dragon ball is their favorite anime or toriyama is their favorite mangaka in the west without being treated as if you don’t know any better or be told you should watch “real anime”
FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS!!!!!!! Every time, I hear all these sophisticated youtubers quoting Toriyama and saying Goku was always meant to be a selfish jerk. I never bought it, as I remembered everything noble that Goku has done. As a normal fan though, I had no way of arguing with these youtubers (no offense to Geekdom101, MasakoX, etc.) and I knew I'd be immediately criticized. Thank you so much MistareFusion for taking the words out of my mouth and making a professional video to spread the word in a way I never could!!!!!
But, just blaming Super for this is wrong as this started during the Z-portion.
@alwaysanewinterest
I'd say Goku is more reckless than selfish. The problem in part of this misunderstanding seems to stem from how Americans are taught to equate recklessness with selfishness.
@@DemonicRemption Goku says he’s selfish multiple times tho
MistareFusion clearly misrepresents Goku's actions in Early DB in order to make Goku look more heroic when in reality it was actually clear in the OG manga that his intentions during those scenes weren't heroic lmao.
@@lukejones7164 he has heroic moments. But he also had moments where he is just neutral.
One problem I have is that fighting for the selfish reason of becoming stronger is VEGETA'S flaw. He's the one who doesn't care about the world and only wants to be stronger than Carrot. Goku is supposed to have had that Saiyan heritage tempered by his time on Earth, not having been indoctrinated. His Saiyan desire is there, but he channels it into fighting bad guys, not being stronger for its own sake.
Without that, Vegeta's character is redundant.
It is in compete contrast to Goku's behavior in the Sayian arc. Back then he refused to acknowledge himself as a Sayian. When he does so later on he is the complete antithesis to the other Sayians. Now suddenly he agrees with a genocidal monster that was tangentially responsible for his friends death. When the hero of the series agrees with one of their worst enemies something is seriously wrong. Even if they see one another as rivals only it is still nonsensical. Especially since the rest of the arc they are proactive contradicting this scene.
Actually no, Vegeta is now more human than Goku himself, he still tells everyone about his pride and his saiyan might but at the end he was softened by Earth and humanity.
Is GOKU the one that episode through episode did become more and more saiyan, when Raditz came to Earth he didn't accept the truth, and even he knew it, he stated *I am a saiyan raised on Earth, and my name is Son Goku*
But now? He aknowledges his saiyan heritage, he is fine about being part of a race of murderous warriors, he is Goku AND Kakarot, as he said.
Darth Pancake Studios to be fair, it was Whis who brought Freeza back to life. Even then, it was stupid on Goku’s side.
Wants to become stronger because that's how they feel ≠ wants to become stronger just to surpass someone else
Vegeta just started training so hard to surpass Goku.
@@Dexuz the sad thing is that could have been interesting to explore and see goku and friends react to just how much he's changed, but they don't
I always thought Super's interpretation of Goku as some guy who "just wants to get stronger" is just shallow, boring and gets really repetitive. The universe is about to get erased and Goku is just over there smiling like a complete idiot just repeating the same thing over and over. "Oh boy i sure do wanna get stronger!!! :)"
Oh, definitely. I hate that about him in Super. And it makes me even more frustrated when I see people lift him up as an example of getting Goku right because I could't disagree more vehemently. This is a caricature of Goku. Goku has dimensions. He isn't just the guy who goes crazy over a good fight, and he has more emotions than just "squeeeee!" And the sad thing is, I love Goku's happy-go-lucky, childlike nature, but it's just intolerable the way it's handled in this series. Of all of Super's multitude of sins, causing me to dislike that side of Goku's personality is its second-worst sin. Its worst is being so painfully boring.
@@MistareFusion I couldn't agree more. It's made me hate Goku (as he is now, not the character I knew growing up).
You addressed a very good point that always bothers me; Goku isn't Funimation's Superman.
But, even Toriyama got him wrong in hindsight. Bullshit, he doesn't care about protecting others. That's openly contradicted throughout Dragon Ball.
He makes poor decisions off of his carefree behavior and battlelust; that's fine. A main character needs flaws.
But, they should be just that. Decisions made in error. Not an open disregard for any decency.
I openly loathed Super's Goku and enjoyed seeing him being taken down a peg; not for the sake of an interesting story, because it wouldn't lead anywhere, but just out of pettiness.
I think the low, for me, wasn't the ToP, but the Future Trunks arc. At the beginning. Trunks comes back, terribly traumatized, attacks Goku in a terror, and describes that his life is in shambles and that this new threat killed Bulma, one of his best friends.
He doesn't come in with a serious reassurance, or his classic Goku 'everything's going to be alright' aura. He doesn't even mask his excitement to fight with any indignation.
He starts getting GIDDY about fighting Black, openly, in front of Trunks. What a slap in the fucking face.
It's essentially what Trunks would've been exposed to in this arc, but worse.
He doesn't show any anger even on a personal level, or treat Black with disdain when he appears. He treats him like sparring buddy.
Even against Frieza and Vegeta, who he admits he's excited to fight, he still treats them as threats and bastards. Openly.
There's a reason people started seeing Goku as a villain. It was an extremely clumsy and ugly portrayal.
The ToP arc could've fully adressed this. Heck, the anime version perfectly set it up with his fights against Bergamo and Toppo in the Zen Exhibition Match ("So I'm evil, huh? Interesting" is one of my favorite Goku lines)...................and then nothing is done about it
Yep. You hit the nail on the head, my friend. Super is such a pile of ass in how it presents Son Goku.
And yet, Goku has shown signs of this since the Cell Saga. Purerly blaming Super for this seems wrong. It's more that his character degraded over time, which started in the Freeza Saga. So if anything blame the so called Z-portion for making Goku what he is today.
I'm so tired of people using that Toriyama quote to justify Goku's selfish turn. Toriyama freely admits to not planning ahead, being forgetful and changing his mind decades later ie. #16 being Gero's son, Buu not being created by Bibbidi, Bobbidi not being Bibbidi's son, etc. I'm going full death of the author on this one.
I feel the same way with kuwabara and yyh.
1. 16 was just modeled after his son, he isn't the exact person.
2. It's Bibidi and Babidi, not Bibbidi and Bobbidi.
I think a good way to fix the whole plot is if Trunks and Bulma never knew who built the androids.
It would fix so much without making the characters look like selfish idiots.
Where does Trunks even learn about doctor Gero? Neither episode of Trunks nor any of the flashbacks explain that, which must mean Androids told the heroes about it. Why? There is no narrative reason for the characters to know where they came from before Bulma recognized Android 20, so why even have them know?
17 & 18’s clothes
@@newtruths7786 That would just mean they know they're at minimum Red Ribbon related but that in itself isn't the biggest clue specially after so many years.
@@genyakozlov1316 since toriyama's original draft had 19 and 20 as the villains, toryiama might have intended that future bulma would recognise android 20 and tell that to trunks
Even though I have a softspot for the Cell arc, there's no defending this moment.
However, I will say that I wasn't as infuriated by this moment as I was by Gotenks continuously screwing around with Buu when he knew his form had a time limit AND both boys knew that Buu had killed their loved ones (with Goten watching his own mother die). I can believe kids making bad decisions, but I can't believe a kid shrugging off his own mother's death just so he has a chance to show off in front of Piccolo.
+vgfmak Maybe the problem with that is the timing. If Buu killed everyone after the boys were getting too cocky and screwing around then that would have been a consequence for it. Or if they didn't know their form had a limit due to Goku either not assuming they would use up the time or that they didn't know their power fluctuations would affect it. Its like the scenarios are backwards. I could have bought everything if they went in without that information and had to work around that. I'm more pissed that when they found this out, they made SS3 seem like that was when Gotenks would get serious enough to beat Super Buu but even after that they were just messing around.
Also you'd think goten would have at least gotten a version of that anger power boost like gohan did but no.
Well they are just kids so they will not always be thinking things logically, and even Vegeto was cocky in his fight with Buu not taking the fight completely seriously.
I can forgive any retarded things Gotenks does because it's subtly implied that fusion wasn't all it was cracked up to be.
In addition to being a stronger version of the two boys, Gotenks seems to have all of the pair's immature and stupid tendencies cranked up to 11. Just look at the way he treats Piccolo compared to how Trunks and Goten do. They both normally respect and listen to him to some degree, but whenever they fuse they ignore his advice and just go off do their own thing. Same thing with the deaths of their family, Goten and Trunks care and want to do avenge them, but *Gotenks* just wants to fuck around.
I think it works quite well, you just need to treat Gotenks as a completely separate character.
Yep, I always saw it as the fusion combining all of their traits, and though some might balance each other, others just add up, and immaturity seems to be the worst of them all. Plus, Gotenks seems to be both Goten and Trunks and also neither Goten nor Trunks at the same time. It's kinda weird, but in an interesting way.
I love how we go from “a storyline that shouldn’t happen due to in-universe circumstances” to enourmous dissections on the community, series tone and adaptions.
I’m not being sarcastic, that’s legitimitely why I love your show, Mistare
Funny how this is "supposedly" the sequel to that arc in question. Although that is a nitpick in the grand scheme of things. This snafu is a infuriating as hell plot hole. The Boo arc however is chalk full of stupid character moments like this. At least this and the Vegeta being accepted thing that boters me perhaps even more are the only really big problems.
Why do you only have 11k subscribers?! Seriously, this video is what I've been waiting for!!! You nailed every point! Great job!
Tyler Perry's The Haves and the Have Nots Review Damn 11k!! He's grown a bit since I last checked.
+dstebbin
The guy has a life.
I don't mind waiting since I've got a life myself.
I'm subscribed and have notifications on, when he uploads I'm happy about it, when not, I'm occupied with other stuff.
It's not like we are paying him.
+dstebbin We aren't in a place to demand too much for him though.
I agree that UA-cam's system is the cause, he is free to ignore that though.
dstebbin, this is precisely why I don't reply to you anymore. You have this odd entitlement complex and insistence on distorting facts. But in this case, I want to make sure these misperceptions don't spread to other people.
For the record, with the exception of the beginning of year break I take (which I announce ahead of time), I have consistently put out a new video every other Monday for two years now. And that is excluding December where I put out five Dragon Ball Dissection videos in a single month. That is as consistently as I can get quality videos out. I make no excuses for why my channel may not be as popular as someone else's, or whether or not I'm able to meet the same output quantity as my peers. I'm proud of the work I've done, and I'm extremely proud of grateful for the fanbase I've been able to cultivate. While I would love to be bigger, I don't think 11,000+ people is anything to sneeze at. So thank you to everybody.
But to say that I have a lack of dedication to this channel when I've maintained it for nine years is, quite frankly, insulting. There is not a single other thing in my life that I have dedicated that much uninterrupted time to, and I find it unlikely there are many other early-30-somethings who can say the same. And to say that I put out videos "whenever I feel like it" is demonstrably false.
Thank you, everyone, for your patience and support.
+MistareFusion You're doing great work man.
And regardless of opinions, you have to be happy with it yourself, which it seems you are.
And that's what happens when you write/draw a complicated story on a weekly basis
That's what happens when you give as little fucks as Toriyama did and still does.
Then Toriyama was an idiot for trying to write a complicated story week to week with no plan for where it was going until well into the middle of the arc.
Well, the story wasn't exactly "complicated"... Toriyama just isn't the best story writer. His strength comes in poop jokes and Bruce Lee-esque fight scenes.
Other manga artists like Eichiro Oda can do it just fine. It's just that Toriyama isn't very strong when he has a lot of factors to take in. He's a better writer than most give him credit for but he has very clear limitations.
109 To imply that Toriyama didn't care is insanely disrespectful. He had a lot of flaws as a writer, but when you look at the artwork itself (ESPECIALLY the art, actually) and the cool things he did in the stories (even the fundamentally flawed ones) you see a high level of expertise and care in what he did. The issue is that he started caring about completely different things than the fanbase does and got less consistent with the characters.
I think it would be funny if Trunks never mentioned Dr. Gero's name and when they go ask the dragon to find him one of them says "wait what is the dudes name?" and they wouldn't be able to find him for that reason.
Exactly that is what should of happened. Hell why would Trunks even know Dr. Gero was the culprit anyway? Toriyama should have kept that a mystery at this point.
@@spartanq7781 Damn you're right, i really like the idea of Dr. Gero being a mystery that gets unraveled when the Androids talk about the spy robot that has been following Goku.
It would have made sense to not even know that the AHs were from the RRA. 17 and 18 would have shed their clothes with the insignia before meeting him, and would have little reason to exposite to Trunks/Gohan about it.
When Roshi, the guy who should be in jail, is more responsible than the heroes there's a problem.
You're pretty much on point on the case of Goku being more in the middle line and although not a Superman type hero, he is definitely a hero in some capacity. Regardless of what the anime or the dub did, or the divisive nature of the series, Goku is seen in a certain light by people who grew up with Dragon Ball and Toriyama is just sort of a buttmad old man. That's why Toyotaro writes Goku more sensibly in the Super manga, that's why Horikoshi says in interviews All Might is inspired by Goku despite literally being a Superman equivalent. Cause to them, the people who shape the future of manga and the series, do it based on what they believe, and not out of spite like Toriyama does. Toriyama doesn't get to decide how his characters are seen, no mangaka does, they can just influence how they think they should be seen through story...and people clearly thought otherwise.
Also, Toriyama and people who say it's all about martial arts and morals are sidelined don't understand Wuxia for shit, cause I've seen enough Wuxia theatre and Kung Fu movies to know there are DEFINED lines between heroes and villains. People who use their powers to better themselves- and when necessary help others- against people who use their powers for evil and selfish gain. That's a Hero vs Villain story, good vs evil. War Dramas or Tournament based stories where everyone thinks they're in the right is probably more along the lines of things like "Martial Arts Moral Ambiguity" but when you have defined villains, then the people who fight them are heroes, even if they aren't out stopping normal crime actively.
Is that Kamen Rider Skull?
Well shit. I agree 100% with your points, AND you just provided a solution to all the main problems I have with this Arc (the characters' stupidity and the ridiculously strong Artificial Humans, created by a mere human).
DAMN, you're good.
+Bruno Bessa
The problem is that Toriyama is LAZY! But as a writer who tries to carefully plan the plot of every story he writes, I get it. Planning every scenario and how the characters tackle an obstacle is hard, a lot harder than you'd think given the premise of some story arcs.
It's a lot easier to wing it like Toriyama despite the flaws that occur...-_-
Oh, I definitely agree. I tried comming up with solutions or even a better arc than this one before and I failed lol
It's definitely not easy and, considering Toriyama made most of this stuff up as he went along, what he managed to come up with is actually impressive. But I can't help it, I'm still frustrated haha
+Bruno Bessa
I understand your frustration, especially Toriyama was an influence on me. It is impressive that he did manage to turn out good arcs overall, but it's only after dissecting them like Mistare Fusion has, and I've done so in my spare time, that the flaws start to show... And then it gets frustrating... Buuuut, I started watching DragonBall Dissection to further learn from Toriyama's mistakes. I just didn't expect it to be THIS bad...
That happened to some of the other arcs for me (like the King Piccolo Arc... I used to like it much more before DBD lol), but the Cell Arc has always bothered me. It never made sense, even though I never stopped to analyse the details. DBD is only confirming all the problems I had with it.
I think one piece does a really good job of balancing the hero who loves to fight but still does still cares about protecting his friends and the countries they live in.
Huh, I never really had a problem at this point of the Arc. All my gripes with Cell Arc appear much later.
But now that I seen this video, I must agree with your viewpoint. This would have fixed so many problems early on in this Arc, such as Androids purposely wasting time, driving around in a van and not being genocidal maniacs for no reason. The heroes and villains do a lot of nothing in this Arc, it would be nice if they had more interactions.
It would be hilarious if the next chapter was Goku and the team knocking on Gero's massive metal door with the text box saying _"So our heroes used the dragon balls ..."_
*I can see it now:* Gero is confused and sweating bullets. The last person he expects to see, Goku, is knocking his metal door down. Bulma, being a bossy bitch, gets in Gero's face, _"We know what you're doing, destroy your creations or my friends are going to blast you!"_ Trying to rationalize what's going on, having some back-and-forth conversation, but realizing how powerless he is, Gero complies. Then Krillin sees Android 18 for the first time, a beautiful blonde sleeping peacefully in a pod and asks, _"Wait, are these humans?"_ Gero replies, _"Uh, yes. Kind of."_ Krillin says to Goku, _"We can't kill them Goku, it's not right."_ Goku agrees, which makes Bulma angry but realizing nothing would change Goku's mind, Bulma storms off outside. And just before she exits the room, Bulma says to Gero, _"By the way, your Androids are going to betray and kill you anyways."_ Then Gero's face becomes more serious, finally realizing what's going on. *END SCENE* Not sure what would happen after but it's a good start.
I think it would be great to delve into Gero's character. Doctor Gero is a human with motivations, not some Godly space monster like Freeza. Maybe even learn more about the Red Ribbon Army as well. Also, when Lance said the Z-Fighters would keep a close eye on Gero, I immediately thought of Kami. Of course Kami would never go to the lower realm, staying at The Lookout but I think it would be great if Piccolo was Kami's "man on the ground". I could imagine Kami calling on Piccolo while he's training with Goku: Kami's voice enters Piccolo's mind, _"Piccolo, I cannot see where Gero is. Check out his base."_ Piccolo replies, _"Sure thing._ *_sigh_* _Why must the Devil do God's work?"_
Now that I would like to see.
Good stuff as usual. Really well laid out arguments, and ESPECIALLY relevant with Goku's actions during the latest Super arc, from what I understand.
But one thing I found particularly interesting was Toriyama's quote, saying "What I wanted to depict the most was the sense that he might not be a good guy at all, although he does do good things as a result." I agree with you that this wasn't the case for Goku earlier in the series, and the muddying of waters as it went on hurt the chances of it being any sort of character arc. But what I found interesting was the timing of these feelings, and why Toriyama might think this way now. The closet later moments of Goku from the manga I can think of are Cell and Buu. You've yet to go into his actions with setting up Gohan to fight, or toying around with Buu so Goten and Trunks can get the spotlight, but I will say both of those are in service of Goku trying to pass the torch, so while he COULD do better, he's also getting older and needs someone younger to surpass him. Though while I understand Toriyama wanted this to happen, Goku was too popular and he wasn't able to go through with it. I haven't seen the actual source for these claims (I'm sure you know about it), but it is interesting. The manga even ends with him training Uub, which follows the same train of thought.
It's really telling that the manga really doesn't line up with the quote, even looking ahead. Wanting someone else to surpass him so that they could protect the world when he's gone is very much pragmatic on not in line with someone who only wants to get stronger. Note that I don't think Goku would, say, throw a fight. He wants to be as strong as he can be, but he does need someone as strong as him or stronger to protect the world. But that begs the question of when did Toriyama's feelings change on how he wants Goku to act? And frankly, I think a part of the answer has nothing to do with Dragon Ball itself, because something else that happened in between Dragon Ball ending and Toriyama's return, was the debut and massive success of a series so heavily inspired by Dragon Ball, One Piece. And that quote is more accurate to Monkey D. Luffy than it has EVER been to Goku until Super.
Luffy stops Krieg from invading Baratie because it would clear his debt to Zeff. He sees the tyrant Arlong terrorizing a whole archipelago, but only steps in once he's asked to by Nami. Much later, he even says "I don't want to be a hero. A hero has to share the meat, but I want to eat the meat myself!" He doesn't do good things because he wants to, but because they are in service of his selfish desires to help those he cares about. He does easily connect to people, but if there are moments of him helping innocents who've done nothing for him, they aren't springing to mind.
Considering that I highly doubt Toriyama hasn't read One Piece, maybe he saw the influence Luffy so clearly took from Goku, and that in turn influenced Goku in the likes of Battle of the Gods and Super. He's known for forgetting things, so Luffy's character might have filled in blanks he'd lost regarding Goku, and informed his decisions for writing him. Or maybe he was always trying to write Goku that way (which perhaps Oda noticed and executed more effectively), and just happened to start writing Goku that way after his manga ended and it's a big coincidence, but I do think the possibility is worth considering, since I agree with you in that Toriyama is wrong about his own character (at least in this instance), and anyone who memes about him forgetting things can't also use this quote of evidence for Goku being the way he is, especially when it is just not in line with the material. Toriyama's so forgetful that I can't really hold that much weight in what he thinks about his work now, which is sad, but I can't really help thinking that.
Actually, the Aokiji thing with the random people was anime only. In the original manga, he froze the water so Tonjit could get back to his nomadic tribe on Long Ring Long Land, so they were helping someone who they had met and got food and hospitality from after helping him down from his stilts (well, accidentally). But yeah, I agree that Luffy is ultimately a good person, and definitely not a bad one, I just thought he made an interesting comparison next to the differences between manga and Dragon Ball Super Goku, especially if the anime made him more heroic than he is in canon.
yeah, i've noticed that too :)
You might might want to work wording. From the looking at the paragraph it seems like you trying that luffy doesn't do good things because of some moral obligation but because he wants to for his own reasons; what you wound up saying was "luffy doesn't do good things because he wants to for his own reasons, he does them because he wanted to at the moment. Speaking of luffy, not has he done something good based soley on his principals, but as you said before, it is not that hard to make friends with him meaning he might as well be saving ordinary citizens. The problem with goku and most of toriyama's characters is that he comes up with initial premise for a character, realize it conflicts with a story he wants to tell, changes that characters personality ever so slightly, and then repeats the process.
good comment
I've never understood why people get angry at him sending Gohan in. Considering how much Cell was holding back against Goku, it was the only option.
im glad i found out about your channel, your videos are great ^^
Based on this video and how you pointed out the dumb decisions made by the characters, I cannot wait until you give your thoughts on Bulma bringing her child into the line of fire just to see what the Androids look like...
Ugh that was so damn stupid. She's supposed to the smart one. Then she suddenly knows Dr. Gero by looking him up. In that case why even bring up the dragon balls if she could just do that? Why does everyone besides Vegeta suddenly want to stop Gero from activating the Artificial humans? Not only is everyone a idiot they're also inconsistent besides Vegeta and Trunks.
@@spartanq7781 nope, earlier they were just mentioned about two threats and they thought that it will be easy but later on after knowing that :
1) there are more than two androids
2) history is changing,
it makes sense why they want to stop them
@@ripper3052 Ugh that rationalization annoys me. The only reason their actions differ is because the plot doesn't need them to be idiots. Hell they even say that it might not matter after seeing how strong Vegeta has gotten. So you'd think their actions would be in reverse order. Which would make so much more sense. This is bad writing no justification can explain it away.
@@spartanq7781 It's a martial arts story; there's nothing wrong with characters largely being motivated to push and test their limits. It's nice when such a story gives more than that, but I don't think it's a necessity. You're free to watch Avengers if you love idealistic heroic stories. Super Eyepatch Wolf perfectly summed up their actions in his dbz video.
I don't think their hesitance to do anything at the start, and their eagerness to do things later on is as inconsistent as is being argued. They still have three whole years to train and prepare for this threat. They know when and where the initial attack is supposed to take place. Goku isn't going to die from a crazy virus. They're not entirely unjustified in thinking that they'll be able to stop things this time, now that they know and will be stronger and will have their ace in the hole this time around.
Later on, they're already in the thick of it. They don't have more time to train and prepare after shit starts getting dicey. Trunks shows up and says that the two Androids they'd been fighting aren't the ones he warned them about, so their stellar performance there isn't yet indicative of anything. And now Goku's out of commission. I think it's a bit more reasonable for them to err on the side of caution now that their get out of jail free card is gone, and now that the guy who went through the trouble to warn them is there staring them in the face.
In the Tenshinhan example, I think he actually painted his action in both arcs rather consistently: He's not keen on preemptively using the Dragon Balls to defeat Piccolo, but after his plan falls through, he's more than fine with it. He's not keen on preemptively taking the easy way out with Gero, but when shit hits the fan with Goku, Cell, and the like, all gloves are off.
To call it bad writing is beyond reductive and wanting the characters to act like you want them to instead of taking into consideration how refreshed they were after their training along with the presence of goku, vegeta and piccolo giving them more confidence.
According to you everything is a plot device or bad writing.
@@ripper3052 This is bad writing enough arguing enough.
Before i watch the video, I'll just say no. As a kid he only really fought bad guys when they pissed him of. After the video: huh... wow... didn'r realize any of that.
Wow, its so rare that you see a worth-while perspective like this, instead of just shutting up and preaching the Toriyama gospel, Mistare points out the character inconsistencies of Goku and provides a very believable theory as to why Toriyama shook him around so much. Took the words right out of my mouth. I always found it funny that Goku decides to spare Vegeta but is willing to kill Raditz. It gives off the impression that you only register on Goku's radar a person if you can provide him a good physical challenge, otherwise he only merely acknowledges you and just wants to skip straight to the strongest guy in the room, like how he probably didn't take Ginyu seriously because he wasn't much of a threat to him with the help of the Kaioken. Or his eyes on the prize mentality of wanting to go for Jiren despite the fact that he should be worrying about the numerous other fighters that would be gunning for him. A few exceptions are with guy's like Hit, Piccolo, and Tien for a bit. Goku wants that rebound, and once he knows he can beat you and does, you're just another level beaten and its on to the next freak thats even more powerful
21:18 I like the idea of having their attempt to fix the future cause even more trouble for them. I think that it could have been the perfect character opportunity for Vegeta to act against the group for his own interest in fighting the androids, as he is still a threat to most of them and has no obligation in protecting the Earth. And in their clashes, allow Dr Gero access to updated info of their strength to make the androids even stronger.
I get so damn sick of the "he fights JUST to fight". Toriyama to begin with has never been THAT reliable of a source and Goku has quite clearly been a HERO throughout the series until he gets changed with that Saiyan bullshit. He doesn't fight JUST to fight. He always helped people cause it was just RIGHT to do so. When he stops villains it's because his friends have been hurt or they will continue to keep doing it to the rest of the world, NOT just because he wants to be stronger.
I think the manga does explain the power difference. Trunks is knocked out and misses Gohan's final fight, where 17 reveals they haven't even been using half their power, which they only use when Gohan's gotten the fight somewhat close to their held back level. It's possible that due to Trunks being weaker than Gohan was at the time, they went back to holding back their true power.
They probably held back because of having so few good fights left. The androids of the past, however, were just getting their first real fight, so they had no reason to hold back their true power. So that could be why Trunks was confused.
Trunks actually fights the artificial humans after Gohan's death, we never see the fight in the manga, but in the anime they probably held back. That may be why he thinks that but it still kinda comes out of nowhere.
To the power of hindsight and knowing where this story goes, here’s what should have happened:
They make their arguments, but there’s no real agreement by the end. Using the dragon balls to find Gero and kill him is suggested, but that’s shut down. Gohan suggests that they find him and warn him, not wanting anyone to die, but that’s also shut down. The only thing they agree on is to continue the debate tomorrow. But, that night, Gohan sneaks out and finds the Dragon Balls and wish to know where Gero is and goes to warn him. After going through Gero’s defences, Gohan tells Gero what’s going to happened before the rest of the Dragon Team shows up and goes along with Gohan’s plan: Telling Gero that they will keep an eye on him. 6 months before the androids are going to show up, they discover that Gero have escaped their sight and is planning something.
This does fix the moral dilemma while also setting up Gohan’s arc. And this gives a reason why one year in the Time Chamber would do a difference (they’re not gone train as hard if there’s no treat).
So happy to find this in my notifications.
We could have avoided this whole mess by Trunks- being frightened of removing the impetus for Vegeta and Blooma to get together- giving Goku the heart virus medication and telling him "bad guys from space are coming and the dragon balls can't stop them"
Then later, when it emerges that they came from Earth, he admits he lied to safeguard his own existence, but his future didn't change, it just made a different timeline. So, since he feels responsible, he came back to fight with them. There could be dramatic tension, man! DRAMATIC TENSION!
A part of me felt Bulma's idea is what Toriyama wanted to do and the other character's stupid reasons is everyone at Shueisha.
He shows us there is a way out of all this, he knows its there but he can't take it because fightin' and junk. Also yay you're back!
The Dynast Queen That is an interesting theory
@@djmeagaaim17
Agreed. Hell, you could have Team Dragon find Gero's lab and destroy it. But with the catch that it wakes up some of his Androids early. That way the heroes are still proactive *and* you can get fights!
The way I see it, Toriyama failed at making Goku not the good guy, so I wholeheartedly agree, Fusion, especially when he shifted Goku to selfless to selfish.
I still need to read the original Dragon Ball, but I have a hard time getting a read on Goku. He's fighting for the people close to him in the Saiyan Arc, and has a selfish moment at the end to let Vegeta live. That's fine. But then on Namek, he acts like he doesn't like fighting at all. And then in the Cell Arc and Buu Arc, he thinks it's better to let the next generation step up and succeed him. Then in Super, he brushes that aside in favor of searching for new power-up after new power-up. It just makes it hard for me to understand who Goku is supposed to be, especially when Super seems to dumb him down a bit. Not that he wasn't dumb before, but it felt like he was capable of being serious when a situation called for it, whereas his reactions to Black destroying the future and the universal erasure in Super has pretty much been "Woo, strong guys!"
Real people are confused to understand too
BlueMageDanny goku goes through phases. Contrary to popular believe, that isnt inconsistent writing. Goku isnt a brick character.
I wouldnt say the Namek Arc he didnt like fighting. Its just that he beats the Ginyus easily and no longer considered them a threat, while Vegeta goes for the kill.
During the Buu arc, it simply didnt pan out initially. Despite his teachings, the kids werent ready to take care of things yet and he jad to be the one to come back. This was topped off with Uub who Goku would personally train instead since everyone else lacked interest.
In Super, we see the result of Goku being tied to earth instead of otherworld. He's incredibly bored out of his mind.
Back there he could at least fight the strongest in the universe since the begining of time, but Earth had long since been outgrown by him.
Interesting point of view.
+ChaddyFatome No, it is inconsistent because Toriyama just used Goku as a plot device a lot of the time he wrote Goku to fit the situation, not to build his character. Even if Goku only wanting power ups now as his only character goal, its only to set up new things to do with the series. Goku changing was never planned for development, old Toriyama just some how fit them together then. Now he wants to suddenly define Goku in ways that hes never written him before. The BoG movie might be the closet to that as his saving throw to actually establishing his motivation beond just a hard on for strong guys. It like the Freeza fight was the only time he fought someone specifically to humiliate them or that he lost interest because a fight wasn't a challenge for him after awhile. From RoF onward was when Goku's character was just dumbed down with it emphasized that him being selfish now means hes incompetent. Goku isn't written to be situational anymore.
+RHONSA HOWARD Goku in Super is whatever the toys need him to be.
The descent from 'fantastic' to 'Nonsense' is not a cliff...it is a ramp. It begins, and then the incline just gets worse and worse, and before you know it, we're dealing with the Tournament of Power and Dragon Ball Minus and all kinds of oddities and etc.
Some of it begins when you immediately bring Frieza back(with his dad) just to 'put over' the new villain, do the "mysterious cool guy just obliterated the last villain' move, and THEN introduce the time travel plot.
It continues when the main characters all gamble the lives of EVERYONE, a potential future that they KNOW happens in one reality....they all decide to do something totally illogical and stupid and risky just for the sake of a 'challenge' and 'it hasn't happened yet' and etc.
You know what would've been a really interesting way to make this change in Goku play out if the story wasn't written by the seat of Toriyama's pants? Make the Saiyans have a more noticeable impact on Goku.
Start with Raditz piquing his interest in the different outlook Saiyans had compared to martial artists of Earth. Have these feelings stay pretty unresolved until he fights Vegeta, which act as a firsthand demonstration of that combat and outlook there-within without worrying about Gohan, leading Goku to realize a passion for fighting the Saiyan way. This prompts Goku to selfishly pursue this Saiyan desire to battle, which leads to making dumb decisions like wanting to fight really strong opponents and later projecting that on others.
I think this is what they’ve been trying to do ever since Super, essentially making him more Saiyan-like while Vegeta gets the opposite character arc, becoming more Earthling-like.
It’s probably unintentional and more of a “weekly writing” thing to differentiate them, but if done correctly (and with DB it’s not really a possibility) it could be interesting to explore how Vegeta is now a better person (who carries the burden of his past sins and knows he’ll go to Hell anyway, as he said to Moro) and Goku as more and more Saiyan-like, eventually ditching everyone just to have things keep go his way because he always wins, one way or another - until he finally gets humbled in some capacity.
Could be interesting, but that would require someone actually caring about the product in the first place. And that ain’t happening anytime soon, sadly.
Lance laying down the law.
Blackenfist what’s up man! 😎
Hey
The only reason why there's a 3 year gap is so that Trunks can be born.
I knew you were gonna rip apart Goku’s decision not to wish the Androids away! But I didn’t realize you’d do so for 20 minutes. Leave it to MistareFusion 🙂
Didgeridude agreed xD, not that im complaining tho. Guy just never ceases to surprise is all! :P
"I am the hope of the universe."
Oh God, we're actually doing this?! Please, tell my family I loved them, and to remember me as I was.
What makes this stupider is the fact that they think 3 years of training would fare better than their future counterparts whom do the same. It becomes even stupider when the room of spirt and time is introduced later in the arc. Which begs the question where the hell did it come from and why is suddenly used instead of earlier? Toriyama tries to write around this by ham fisting dialogue between Goku and Piccolo pretending like it always existed. Which still begs that question. Goku also tells Muten Roshi about it like he would know. Despite the fact he's never been to the heavenly realm. So he wouldn't know about it.
Dude wtf? You are making up a headcanon yourself. No one warned the future warriors of the threat, it's obvious that they were more relaxed than they were in modified timeline
Also roshi knows about heavenly realm, he climbed Karin tower.
@@ripper3052 That was Korrin tower the heavenly realm is much further up. Like I said he was never there.
@@spartanq7781 he just told Roshi about training for an year in a place which will be only one day long and then leaves, nitpicking at its finest but considering you are a Mistarefusion fan who likes to overly nitpick DB after Namek, it makes sense.
What? Their future counterparts were nowhere near as prepared as our timeline's. They didn't have an imminent threat looming, so I'd imagine guys Krillin, Piccolo and Tien were just kinda going at their own pace while Yamcha might not have been training at all. Who knows if Vegeta is even Super Saiyan in that timeline (and I know anime flashbacks depict him as such, but we don't really know. Maybe Goku's death saps his motivation like it did after Cell).
To add to your suggestion about warning Gero, after he gets away and the dragonballs can't be used to track him down have Bulma use her resources to look for him. Maybe she finds Colonel Violet and learns about his lab. That way she's not just randomly endangering her son but is flying to tell them this information.
20:05 I love your idea by improving the story narrative by having the characters actions be their own undoing, since it does fit with what happens later in the story. But I think everyone misses a key detail when arguing this chapter/episode. Toriyama was working nonstop week to week, so he may have had the idea for the arc, but couldn't think of a good way to start it so he went the easiest and laziest way. That's my opinion on it lol
I mean, that's how a lot of decisions in comic books get made lol "When's my deadline? Tomorrow?! Fuck..." Probably didn't help that Toriyama insisted on doing everything himself so there was never a chance to storyboard or crowdsource a solution.
@@Humorless_Wokescold That`s why you should plan ahead your stories and not write on the run.
@@portul566 like togashi
Ultimately the characters in this arc do suffer so I don't get his point here. Goku even sacrifices his life And points out that villains wouldn't be a threat of Goku took things more seriously.
@@portul566 in his defense, he wasn't planning on writing a story anywhere near this long or complex he was pushed to it by his superiors due to the story's popularity. It is actually impressive we got anything cohesive out of it in the first place.
As a fellow youtube critic, I'm always enviuous of the way your analyses hit the nail on the head in such an eloquent and yet entirely comprehensible fashion. People sometimes tend to forget that these characters and stories were written in the span of ten years and while having a critical and analytical look at the content is an essential part of interpreting a work, one must not neglect the CONTEXT of such work. Sometimes, creators are bound to have certain inconsistencies in their work, especially in a series in such a long publication span as DB. And to analyse all of a work's content as diegetic (I don't know if this expression is the right one, maybe "at face value" is better, English is not my first language) , while not accounting for meta/ contextual elements such as the media the work is being presented in and how that media effects the creative process and ultimately shapes the way in which the creator tells their story, for better or for worse. Stories are not created in a vacuum, and trying to find in-story answers to every question inevitably leads to the mental gymnastics of finding the one explanation, however absurd, that unifies everything in a neat little bow. Because sometimes, the easiest answer is that the author simply made a bad call. It happens. The way Goku's personality evolves is not a neat and precise thing, it was all over the place during the manga's run, and sometimes the author prioritized moving the plot from point A to B over keeping a consistent characterization. So while one can compare the different actions Goku takes in different points int he story, ultimately they simply won't come together into something consistent, because that was not always the intention. But it's the kind of thing you don't pick up on if you're in so deep in the story that you don't see the big picture.
I don't mean to say that, because DB and any other series have so many inconsistencies, it can't be criticized for its content alone. Rather, I try to encourage more people to look beyond just the words and pictures for answers and try to look at how the stories are created, layed out, presented and structured. Knowing the process leads to insight that can expand your understanding of the text, and gives you another angle to look through.
Anyway, enough of my rambling, congratulations on the awesome video.
I think that Trunks defeating Frieza, as good as an introduction for the arc as it is, shouldn't have happened as it did, because it makes this scene a lot more stupid. Trunks just killed the villain from the previous arc with ease and is warning them of an even stronger threat, like you said in the Yamcha episode, it makes no sense that they would even question it, let alone ignore it.
If Trunks was actually some mysterious kid we knew nothing about, how strong he is or even his parentage, it would be understandable for Goku and the gang to not trust him or for them to be nonchalant enough to think they can take on whatever threat he's warning them about.
Another interesting idea would have been that Dr. Gero collected one of the dragon balls and kept it in a radar proof box like the one Pilaf had. He could even be credited as the one who made the Red Ribbon radar. That way the heroes couldn’t find all 7 and the story now has a new way to get the dragon balls out of the picture. It could even be reasoned by #20 as a simple precaution or a guarantee that they can’t undo his damage so as to not ruin the surprise of the heroes knowing about the artificial humans
Applaud this person. 👏
Uranai Baba negs tho
Best way to write this: TRUNKS DOESN’T KNOW WHO BUILT THE ANDROIDS! This prevents them from acting due to their lack of knowledge of who’s responsible.
dragonballs. there's no valid excuses when they have magic wish balls
@@Snowjob109 Except that it’s hard to make a wish to prevent some thing if you don’t know who is responsible for allowing it to happen. Say they gather the Dragon balls and they just tried making a wish that the Annedroids wouldn’t attack in three years. Well the dragon would either not have the power to stop the androids from attacking, future events would be beyond his control, or he might be able to just simply change when the androids arrive but not prevent them from attacking. We already know that the androids abilities are so much greater than the abilities of Kami that the dragon does not possess the means to defeat them with a wish. How this rule has always been pretty vague the basic understanding is that it cannot defeat enemies that are more powerful than the creator of the Dragon balls and the extraordinary powers of what things they can grant are limited based on white powers the individual who created them is able to handle them with. For example, Kami is a magnificent fighter but he is weaker than any of the fighters NZ and thus the dragon is unable to defeat any of the villains in that portion of the story because their strength is greater than the fighting capability of commie which limits white types of photos can be defeated by the dragon. However his role as Guardian of earth gives him godly key as well as several missed call abilities and the ability to travel back-and-forth through the other world. As such this gives him the ability to grant the dragon with the Dragon balls the power to bring back to the Dad and bestow certain gifts such as immortality and the lake even though he himself is not able to grant those things directly. It’s vague and nebulous sure but it does make it clear that the power of the dragon is limited based on what powers the creator of the Dragon balls is able to give it. And given less we also see that the dragon can’t prevent the android if they don’t know who the creator of the androids are. Without knowing who the creator of the androids are the dragon can’t locate the creator to prevent him from creating the androids. Additionally the dragon can’t destroy the android because the android exceed the fighting power of his creator just exceeding the power that the dragon has to get rid of them. You could try wishing that he changes when they arrive or how much damage they do but he wouldn’t be able to do much in that regard especially since he doesn’t know who the androids are who created them or where they are at the moment. The only reason that they wish to know The location of the creator of the Annedroids woodwork is because you know who the creator is and that it’s much easier to find a known individual rather than trying to find an unknown individual. If you don’t know who created them in other words then you can’t wish to prevent the events from taking place because you don’t have enough information to act. It’s all a game of limits.
@@mysticalarchives7821 The dragonballs lets them find out who is responsible and where he is
@@mysticalarchives7821 you can agonize all you want but there's no way around it, dude. its just bad writing
Why use the Dragon Balls to track Gero? Why not just use Uranai Baba's psychic abilities to tell them his exact location whenever needed?
Or ask Kami. Who watches over the earth at all times.
Because they didn't want to.
This video was just..... fantastic and nothing less you have really gotten better at making these. I absolutely love this one a the part few ones, you have been hitting the (Dragon) Ball out of the park with the artificial human arc. I would say you started this streak of quality with the final Freezer arc video. I have been needing someone to dissect the "intelligence" of the characters at this point in the story and just how dumb it all is. The Goku portion of the video was something special going into how inconsistent Goku's character can be for the story. It makes me really see how Goku in Super does not feel like Goku from DB part of the story or Z part of the story. I would say now Goku in Super feels more like a caricature of Goku.
I'm sure you've seen this a lot, but finally I can fully agree with you on something. For most of the series, I've kind of just been like "eh, maybe he has a point, but I'm not really seeing it like that". But this is the first time I've seen someone point out that Goku has moments throughout the series where he does stuff not for the hope of a good fight, but to save people or because he feels its the right thing to do. With Vegeta, I could understand him wanting to fight Vegeta again and I also appreciates that he cops to it being selfish. I also like how when he finds out Vegeta is at Namek with his friends, his immediate thoughts are his regret that he spared Vegeta and not excitement that he can fight him again. The whole Raditz fight, as well as the fact he spent about four years raising Gohan with Chi Chi kind of just proves that not everything Goku does is for a good fight.
I think Akira Toriyama forgets that he wrote those aspects of Goku, maybe because he was dissatisfied with how the anime were making him more heroic than he planned to make him. But kind of forgot that he kind of already set the stage for it by giving Goku heroic moments that are driven purely by unselfish motivations.
~*Claps my hands*~ Bravo. You explained all your points beautifully and gave me things to think about in terms of this story and these characters I never thought of before.
I've always seen ma junior following the tournament rules as a shift in the character to a more honorable person. I mean he's not even wearing the demon symbol anymore
He's also clearly more interested in defeating goku than taking over the world.
*This is part of the Arc where the IDIOT PLOT IS TURNED UP TO THE MAX.* it really shows the characters at the absolute dumbest. I can understand Goku and Vegeta not wanting to interfere with the Android creation for fight but for everyone else there's NO Excuse.
Especially Kami the Garudian of the Earth not doing anything. He prepared for piccolo Jr. He prepared for the sayians. Why wouldn't he have a plan for Gero Especially if Kami can find him instantly and take him out.
Damn. This was a really good episode.
Although I was kinda hoping you’d bring up another shortcoming of the writing here. It’s not really character focused, so maybe you will later, but the fact that Trunks’ apocalyptic future is kinda... impossible? I mean, there was no way for them to get to Namek to use those Dragon Balls? Bulma has the resources to make a time machine, but not a space ship? And what’s everyone doing in the afterlife? Apparently nobody talks to the people left on Earth or anything? They don’t try to formulate a plan on how to fight back, they just... give? I don’t get it. With how the world of Dragon Ball is set up, this type of “end of the world” setting just doesn’t make sense, especially with how long it’s supposedly lasted (17 years I think?)
They have no idea where the new planet Namek is, apparently, because the Namekians just immediately cut off all communication. For some reason. IDK, it's weird. But yes, it IS weird that King Kai doesn't get involved in Future Trunks' world and the characters in the afterlife are less proactive than when they die in the main timeline.
I find it a little amusing that you bring up the “they don’t know where New Namek is” excuse in the exact same post where you mention King Kai. Because... you know, he could very easily tell them where it is? That’s how they knew where the original Namek was. But yeah, there’s just loads of issues here that really don’t make any sense.
being the devil advocate here: maybe Kaio can't tell where the new Namke planet is. Maybe he knew where the original was is because it was at the same location for hundred of years. The new Namek planet is maybe not even in the North galaxy anymore(?)
I mean, apparently the original Namek was already “outside his jurisdiction”, but he found it fine. He can also telepathically talk to people anywhere so, you know, is it that hard just to call Muuri up and ask where he is?
Wasn't King Kai the one who showed Goku where New Namek was?
Always liked the way Tien confronted Piccolo, Cell and Buu despite knowing he was outmatched. What he lacks in strength, he makes up for in guts.
Nappa too!
Tien is awesome
I always thought it was weird when goku said stuff like "I am the hope of the universe"
This can't be the same character who gave nappa mercy, despite being the cause of 3 of your friends deaths, if piccolo counts at the time
And allowing vegeta to live, just to have a worthy adversary, a bit of a burn to piccolo his life long enemy/rival.
Yea they always tried to sanitize these characters to whatever extent they could, granted the seeds were sort of planted already for some of it even though others like "Hope of the Universe" had no reason to exist.
aw cool new episode after i binged a bunch of old ones last night
I'm also pretty bewildered that Toriyama thought the Japanese dub of the anime was changing Goku to make him "too heroic".
I know I've said that before, but considering that the Japanese dub anime is nearly identical to the manga in terms of dialogue and action, I can't understand how Toriyama thought the anime Goku was more heroic than his manga counterpart. If he really thought Goku was "too heroic" then it's the original source's (read: Toriyama) fault.
Maybe he thought the third Z movie went too far in making it a point of pride that Goku didn't grow up on his home planet? I dunno
Also, I love the idea of someone making a fanfic where Trunks sticks around a _little_ longer than he should, hearing *ALL* of this, and absolutely fucking _EXPLODING_ at everyone present. Yamcha and Blooma's relationship aside, he is *living proof* that they're all going to die, even Gohan, and they're all still willing to just shrug that off and not even *try* to pre-emptively stop Gero, not even in a way that _might_ fuck everything up down the line. Sure, the Buu Arc would end badly, but _they_ don't know that, do they?
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, it really _would_ have been a problem if Dragon Ball had gone on any further than the somewhat-explainable Buu Arc, wouldn't it? At least all of Dragon Ball Super was basically caused by Beerus, who would be justified in not getting involved in the future timeline, how would you constantly come up with new problems if the future timeline ever became relevant again? How badly could the Android's involvement have buggered up _other_ plots that have yet to be written in due time?
hi lance!
Hi, Geekdom!
Oh hai mark
Geekdom101 you should promote this channel more if you can. It's amazing!!!!!
Right? Geekdom is dropping the ball
I appreciate the concern, but I wouldn't say that at all. Geekdom does promote me. He's a great guy, not to mention a personal friend. We had lunch together today, and he was talking about more ways to promote me. He really cares about content creators in this community.
You make great points! And yeas about Goku's character. Time and time again, I always to people, on every Super related content, about Goku's character. As you said, half believes he's a hero and the other he's just selfish who wants to fight. I say he's smack dab in the middle.
I keep saying this everytime, he does love to fight. Go out to stop the bad guys isn't his top priority. Yet, he is a good guy who would help people.I say that's what makes his character complex and what makes Goku...well Goku.
Now I can't wait for you to discuss to people about Gohan.
ResonantPilot
I have to disagree. People started hating on Goku when Super came in and because of DBZ Abridged.
Americans mostly saw Goku as a hero because of the dubbed version ( that is why it became so popular in the first place) and it all changed,with Super and Abridged.
I particularly like Goku just that in Super they make him a bit annoying.
I believed people started to hype Vegeta at least in the west, because of his development and he basically has no flaws, which obviously make him seen more as a hero than Goku and for some reason he never gets the win and they think he deserves it.
Goku has no character development, and personality-wise it makes Vegeta more likable for some people.
So, it is bad writing from the team. The protagonist should be the one with the most development. I don’t mind that Goku has flaws but at this point he has to many flaws and Vegeta doesn’t which make people hyping him more and wants him as the protagonist.
They should balance the characters.
@@baddestislandgal5744 Goku does have character development, he had it during the Frieza Arc when he accepted his Saiyan heritage. Remember how he was denying it all the time? The death of Vegeta and pushed all that foward.
Supreme Dreams678 Yeah, he he had development mostly in classic DB and some in Z.
But they regressed all his development in Super and make him somewhat more childish and unlikeable for others. That is why so many are up Vegeta’s ass.
I don’t think Goku needs to be like Vegeta who screams every now and then “muh Bulma, muh family” for us to know he had some development and for power ups. His character also has become stagnant during Super.
They should have keep that serious goofy Goku from Z and keep develop him amd not regressed him for pure comedy.
Even if the sub version of DBZ potrays the real Goku and not the heroic one like the dub did, there is still a huge difference between DB/DBZ Goku and Super Goku (sub).
@@baddestislandgal5744 in all honesty, Super is hot garbage and i don't consider it canon (at least in my mind.) It has it's moments, but overall it's bad imo.
It's inconsistent and ruins alot of character development in the characters( like you said with making Goku a childish again) and just feels like a cash grab. I feel like DB should've just stopped at Battle Of The Gods.
Supreme Dreams678 The Goku in the Buu arc is mature and wiser and look like a master putting his faith in the new generation. But in Super it’s like they hit him with a rock after defeating Buu.
Nothing better to kick off a day than a DBD in the morning,
Speaking of, what about Uranai Baba? Couldn't she divine Dr. Gero's location?
That's another good point. She could have also brought back those who died in Trunk's time for a day. While they train in the other world. Then wallop the artificial humans. Trunk's future makes no sense.
@mariotoast If I didn't I couldn't have made that assessment.
@mariotoast That's why I said they could've trained. They were dead for decades.
Yes which is probably why she wasn't in the manga arc. She was only in the anime and at the end.
Funny enough, this doesn't bug me, what did bug me about this arc is how Piccolo got Cell spilling the beans about himself and it ruins any sense of mystery Toriyama built up.
While I understand that Dragon Ball Super has written Goku fairly inconsistently, I would like to highlight that even then there were moments where Goku's "lust for battle" was quelled by the urgency of the situation.
In the Goku Black arc, yes it's true that Goku initially found some entertainment in Zamasu and Goku Black, but people seem to miss the exact moment where Goku realized just how awful the two of them were and how badly they needed to be put down. If his more grim demeanor when Vegeta was initially downed by Black didn't persuade you, then Goku's pure rage at the knowledge of how petty and evil the two villains were when they went out of their way to kill Goku's family out of sheer spite in an alternate timeline should have been a good indication that even Goku stopped playing around then.
Hell, wasted as it was as a plot-point, Goku was the one who decided that it was time to break out the Mafuba since Zamasu couldn't be beaten conventionally.
Goku isn't a hero per se, but he is a good person. The moments where his selfishness shone through are more examples of lazy writing than anything else, and I think Goku's attitude when faced with villains is more consistent than his supposed battle-crazy tendencies. (Though they are still there.)
Thank you! I'm so tired of this "Goku has always been selfish!" bullshit. It isn't like he is willing to kill someone's family to have a good fight.
Goku is characterized as being whimsical throughout the entire series. He acts in such a way that is true in the moment, and reacts to a situation as it presents itself. He acts according to his emotions. His helping of the turtle was an in the moment decision just because he felt like it not one that speaks to a moral compass. He helps Upa because at that moment Upa is in front of him and he can sympathize. I'm sure the excitement of raiding the Red Ribbon crossed his mind in addition. Let me ask this: does he ever mention anyone else when alone? I'm sure it's happened on occasion, but I can't honestly think of one time. When he is alone he is focused on the task and nothing else, what's in front of him. This is why I find Goku perfectly in character during this moment. All he is thinking about is the excitement of a challenge. There is no one right there, in front of him suffering or in peril and therefore he does not process the warning rationally. Thus I can't see him as anything but in character because it's obvious that Toriyama meant for him to be viewed this way, and it is how I view him.
He is pure of heart because he is always true to himself, he is untainted by the world and self-doubt not because he is selfless. He is innocent so far as never changing or questioning due to circumstance, he is child-like even in adulthood. This is also what Vegeta saw in his epiphany at the end of the Buu arc. Goku knows who he is, always has. He has no doubt within him. *He is true to himself* always. This purity grants him an advantage when it comes to achieving his goals. Nothing gets in the way, even if he must disappoint those around him. He doesn't take pleasure in doing so, neither does he feel guilt. He just rolls with tide. Vegeta is CONSTANTLY at odds with himself, constantly changing because he thinks he has to, constantly fixated on this toxic rivalry.
Some of the others are however out of character. They have much more stringently defined characteristics that they never deviate from. It's difficult for me believe the "every man" Kuririn is fine with it despite enjoying a *controlled* fight, same with Yamcha. Gohan has most definitely shown that the wellbeing of others is above his own. Piccolo... Idk, there's not really been a situation where the story could slow down and really feel out how much he's changed since his sacrifice. So... maybe? Vegeta threw sand in Zarbon's eyes and uses dirty tactics frequently. I mean, come on, he is out of character from the moment he again sets foot on Earth. Even if you want to throw in the wrench that is Goku and Super Saiyan he should only care about Goku and Super Saiyan, not preparing for a afternoon stroll and battle to save the Earth when he shouldn't give two shits.
I think your kinda doing a bit of disservice what about that time he didn’t kill piccolo because kami would die
And he’s willing to stop his fight with vegeta to fight Majin buu
And he uses up his time on earth to stall for buu
@Galvatronover They could've sealed Piccolo with the Mafubba. Goku let him go partly so he could fight him again. He wanted Piccolo to get stronger.
@@Galvatronover Kami is a friend. "I never considered myself a hero of justice, but when someone threatens my friends..." Fighting for friends, a couple dozen at best, doesn't make you a hero. A *true* hero is selfless, a true hero protects the innocent regardless of affiliation. And again, "friends" to him are merely extensions of himself. He is in a sense fighting for himself for that reason.
He is too innocent, too detached from normal adult-centric relationships to appreciate the autonomy of others. This is apparent all throughout, where he goes years at a time being away from them. He doesn't understand that can be traumatizing, especially for a spouse or child. And this is how Toriyama meant for him to come across. The fact he isn't speaks to how the position of "main protagonist" and said protagonist looking like an exceptional person *while onscreen,* which is but a fraction of the man's actual life, skews perceptions. That or people really think abandoning loved ones to train is acceptable. I would hope the former.
Dragon Ball Super has many, many issues, the exaggeration of "innocent" Goku being one. But the *idea* is correct: he is a man-child, regardless of whether or not he is doing or saying goofy things. I absolutely love the "I am not a hero" line near the conclusion of the ToP because, while it's hard to believe Goku would actually be that self aware, it deconstructs his character brilliantly into one concise sentence.
@@jasonone8726 Piccolo demonstrated that he was capable of countering the Mafuba earlier in the tournament. That's how he ended up sealing God during their match, because they attempted to use the Mafuba on him.
They had literally no options. Kill Piccolo, which would end in God's death, or let him go. With him being functionally tied with the strongest man on Earth, they can't exactly feasibly imprison him.
@@themrdoggo I'm talking about before Goku gave him a senzu bean. Piccolo was knocked out and injured. They could've used the Mafuba while he was down.
And i thought we would get to android 20 and 19 this time hahaha
maybe in part 10
Just wanted to say that I really admire your work and appreciate all the effort you put into your videos.
It really motivates me to strive for better writing in my video scripts .
You are the best👍
Definitely one of the best Dragon Ball videos that I have seen on UA-cam, deeply analyzes the characterization and the modus operandi of the characters, really leaving me thinking if the characters really are the garbage people that the modern characterization of them implies.
Seriously one of the only DB channels worth watching, along with Ayjay. You only make incredibly quality content without any of the vapid crap others do. Love you man
I AM THE HOPE OF THE OMNIVERSE
Manu Sic AND I AM A SUPER.....SAIYAN
ALLYYYYYYY TO GOOD
NIGHTMARE TO YOOOOU
I AM THE ALPHA AND THE AMOEBA!
I AM DARKWING DUCK!
Really, I wish all you analysis would end in a book. This type of quality doesn't belong on UA-cam lol.
You deserve so many more subscribers for the great amount of work you do.
One of my new favorite DBD's. Brilliant stuff! Well articulated and researched arguments, especially that Muten Roshi quote.
Good video. I was actually thinking about this the other day. The idea that the anime made Goku out to be a hero as opposed to the manga kind of seemed like bs to me. Even in the manga, Goku had heroic traits and he followed the martial artist 's path as shown by Master Roshi. I also remembered all the times he was selfless without hope of a good fight. Goku is inconsistently written and you can see Toriyama's fatigue in these later sagas.
This is one of your best episodes yet, and I think you've really improved when it comes to analysis.
I think this really shows just how progressively Flanderised Goku became over the course of the series. I mean, to be fair, you DO see a little bit of Toriyama's attempts to correct this by the end of the Cell arc (when he chooses to stay dead because his presence attracts villains to Earth) and in the Boo arc (when he holds off on killing Boo with SS3 because he doesn't belong in the living world anymore and wants the next generation to take responsibility), but then Toriyama RUINS all that again by having Goku and Vegeta break the Potara TWICE and later opt to fight Boo one-on-one instead of teaming up or even later using the Dragon Balls to just wish Gohan and Gotenks to Planet Kaioshin.
Kid Boo was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Goku even recommended "Gohan and Gotenks to FIGHT with them"
Now if Gohan alone was stronger than he would not need to ask for gotenks but the fact that he added gotenks with Gohan already shows that Gohan alone can't do shit especially after the poor show of gotenks, if Goku is asking his help along Gohan that shows how strong kid boo is. Also, why would Toriyama all of a sudden not make the final form of a villain the strongest considering he's the shortest too.
That feeling when Vegeta and Trunks are the only characters who stay in character. It all comes down to the fact they were over confident in them selves, and when they are actually visually confronted with a threat in front of them they change their tune.
Keep up the great work Lance, this series is by far my favorite one on all of UA-cam.
Just found this series and binged it all at work over the last couple of days. Great stuff man keep it up. I also appreciate that you bothered to make organized playlist it really helps
Thank you Fusion for this rebuttal of all these character misrepresentations that have plagued the authors and fans of this series for soooo long. I couldn’t agree more. Ditto your Yamcha analysis from last episode.
I would have loved to see the different Z fighters seeking different solutions to the future android problem that reflected their character, Vegeta and Goku would stick with training because Vegeta's Vegeta and Goku would figure that if he was dead before the androids arrived last time, being alive and STRONGER would be the best way to stop them. Piccolo and Tien would do the find Gero plan and Tien will stop piccolo from killing Gero only to give the ultimatum himself. Yamcha will probably be dealing with Bulma dumping him and be distracted from helping, and Bulma herself will just put some research into android tech before getting distracted by Vegeta. So yeah, I can see your point in how keeping everyone in character would work to fixing the plotholes, it'd even give chracters more to do.
Yeah but then you wouldn't have a 1 page time-skip to get directly into the fighting...
Mistare, you should box up your series and sell it for top dollar! Everytime you release an episode, I marathon the whole thing! Thank you so much for this delightfully insightful series on a franchise that is essentially my first anime/manga to know about. I've also been entertained, humored, and downright educated on all things creative writing because of this show!
Bruh these are so fucking good. I am loving binging these. You’re so thorough, it’s incredible.
Best Birthday present ever
KaitoVerse Happy Birthday
Happy birthday to both of us then
You know as an adolescent, when I first saw that scene I rationalized it as overconfidence in all the fighters abilities creeping in when making the decision to leave Gero alone because in this instance unlike their future selves that failed and died fighting the androids from Trunks’s timeline, they are armed with all the knowledge and time to prepare for this fight unlike Trunks’s timeline where the androids show up three months after Goku dies from a heart virus and pummel the Z fighters who had no idea what expect when facing this new threat. Your analysis though in this instance makes me really rethink how these characters should have reacted.
Thank you. I know you put a lot of time and effort into these videos and it's always the highlight of my month when you upload 👍
this is really good, like you hit the nail on the head, great stuff dude keep it coming! :)
Wow! That was one hell of a breakdown of Toriyama's shift on Goku. You put all that expertly and changed my view of it. Of course, a creator can change how he feels about a character and how he presents them. Funny how obvious that is only when it's pointed out.
Yes he can it can damage his own story but yes an author can destroy his own story
Shouldn't Trunks himself be the one who tells Goku and the rest of the gang to use the dragon balls to find where Dr. Gero is hiding and save the earth? I mean, is not like he isn't aware of the existence of the dragon balls. He seems the first one to be dumb and out of character.
I mean he didn't live constantly relying on them so I could see that slipping his mind.
Stuff like this is why everything after the Freeza arc is a net-negative. Yes...I love seeing Vegeta become SS...but it comes with him being an idiot who lets Cell become Perfect. Yes, Gohan stans, we all love seeing him go SS2....but if it comes at the cost of trivializing "regular" Super Saiyan, and introducing a myriad of insane time travel plots and stupid character decisions....it isn't worth it.
Almost EVERY time I marathon the series, for whatever reason, I blast through the early portions with a huge amount of enthusiasm...and then once we get beyond Freeza the entire thing grinds to a halt creatively as the plot mechanization and characters themselves become complete idiots.
And here is where Toriyama actively made this arc operate on “Idiot Plots”.
I think it’s pretty clear at this point that DB fans care more about the series than the author ever did.
If Toriyama cared about making Goku and the others characters rather than plot devices, he would’ve realized just how out of character the selfish adult Goku is here compared to his nicer kid version in earlier parts of the story.
But since Toriyama forgot everything that came before, he probably retroactively rewrote history in his own head to justify this decision and make it seem like Goku was always this selfish and therefore being selfish in this scene is fine (even though it’s really not fine).
Episode of Bardock makes me question this...
Well, fans generally care more about continuity and character. But it doesn't necessarily make their writing better than Toriyama's. Caring =/= good at writing alternative stories, but it does make it easier to think up better alternatives.
Toriyama worte that about Goku only 3 years after the manga ended. It was all still pretty fresh in his mind.
I don't think that's fair to say. After all how many people can honestly understand being in his shoes
Kid Goku in the manga (less so in the anime version) had plenty of selfish acts too. Fusion was wrong about Kid Goku be selfless. He didn't even take the RR Army seriously for most that arc (even though they were trying to take over the world) he only got serious when he was motivated by revenge against Tao.
I feel that the part that makes Goku's decision not to stop Gero preemptively is his line about how Gero hasn't done anything wrong yet. Sure Goku's a single minded battle junkie, but he's a good person that will help those he meets, and stop bad people when they are doing bad things. He is also trusting, has a huge heart, and is capable of empathy and forgiveness almost to a fault. I think his nature prevents him from taking action against someone who technically hasn't done anything bad yet. (I mean besides assisting the at the time defunct RR Army in the past.) In Goku's mind perhaps it's possible he won't even do the bad thing.
Which is why using the dragon balls to warn Gero makes sense.
I know this is years old but that's how I interpreted it too. It's not Goku that says that he wants a good fight but Tien. I don't think it's the smartest decision and Goku maybe should've emphasized that the future could be different but Toriyama is an improviser and as someone who hates how Super portrays Goku I never saw this scene as out of character.
The whole video is amazing, but your idea of Dragon Team confronting Dr. Gero before so the Androids become even stronger is brilliant!
Ahhh this was so good! I've been waiting for this video!!!
A certain disgraced power scaler recently reacted to this video on stream and had a pretty terrible take on it. He basically said it's actually brilliant for the characters to be stupid here because he thinks it makes more sense for the characters to be inconsistent. He also missed or misunderstood a lot of the points of the video.
I can't wait until we get to Ultimate Gohan lol.
Yeah, considering how the Cell Arc manages to be semi-decent despite its narrative flaws, I look forward to what he has to say about the Buu Arc basically being one long fight with all of the built up moments getting tossed out of the window. (The only chance we have is the fusion techni- Oh, never mind. Gotenks just lost.)
Yeah, Buu is a narrative mess, I think it's partially caused by Toriyama having to make changes in the story on very short notice. I don't think he even thought of Super Saiyan 3 and maybe some editor or someone else came to him like "Hey, Goku's gonna get a new form right? Gotta sell those figures" and Toriyama was like, "Oh crap. How can I have him get a new form when he's supposed to go back to being dead really soon?" and he came up with the irreplaceable Dragon Radar sideplot to introduce it. Later on he realised the Gohan climax wasn't going to really work out that well and he came up with Buu's absorption technique. Then he had to introduce potara, Kais giving their life to someone else, and Vegeta suddenly still having a body to keep the story going. Buu has many flaws, and especially Goku is very inconsistent there, swinging widely from one side to the other for the sake of the plot. But it also does provide a lot of cool moments and introduces a lot of fan-favourite stuff like fusion, Vegeta's sacrifice, Mr. Satan saving the world, and the first villain to actually blow up Earth.
bananatree25 Actually the Buu arc was the only time Toriyama had little-to-no interference from his editor and was just allowed to have fun and do what he wanted. That's why SSJ3 seems like an asspull, because it was. And the concept of fusion actually came from another famous manga author at the time (I forget which one), who was good friends with him and suggested it because they thought it was a cool idea.
Amazing insights and work here, kudos!
I thought I was the only person who remembered that master Roshi quote, and I went insane because I couldn't find it for shit and made me think I was having a mandela effect.
Don't forget that they allowed 17 & 18 to suffer through their lack of action
Truly vegeta is the only one who makes sense
Thing is his presence there doesn't make any sense. That's the only reason why.
Lmao, even
Given how they just let vegeta stay there, no incentive, no consequence for actively posing a threat, i wouldn't be surprised that he's acting weird cause thats just him
I think another angle worth considering for the issue is that three years is too long for the characters to prepare for the androids because that just means more time to *wisely* stop the threat. Why not have it to where Trunks was only limited to travel back to less than a year before the androids start attacking? The three year time period in canon was pointless anyways. Not only that, but have it to where this takes place when the dragon balls are inactive, so even if they wanted to, they can't use the magic wish orbs. That way, the characters have no choice but to train to fight them.
Only issue I can think of at the moment is that the cast has access to the Namekian Dragon Balls, but I think there are ways to write around that (Maybe they only want to use another planet's dragon balls as a last resort or something, idk).
I agree so much, Goku from DBS is a caricature of himself. I feel like TOEI confused him with Luffy.
Also toriyama had something tp do with it.