Understanding The Triumph ECU Starting Issue
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2020
- With some Triumph motorcycles, including the early modern classic bikes (Bonneville, Thruxton, Scarmbler), there is a known issue with the computer preventing the starter from working. The ECU or ECM monitors battery voltage when you turn the key and if that voltage is below a certain threshold, the ECU will not allow the starting circuit to engage the starter, even though the battery might be capable of turning over the starter! The result is a "click" of the starter relay and nothing else. So, if your bike has been sitting awhile or the battery is just slightly undercharged, it may not start.
The solution could be a good charge on the existing battery or it could mean you need a new battery. In this video I'll show some testing you can do and I'll try to narrow down the voltage range that should give you concern.
UPDATE: A sharp eyed viewer noticed that I traced the wrong path on the wiring diagram with my finger when I was discussing the control of the ground by the ECU. The conclusion is the same, but look at the diagram not my finger! - Авто та транспорт
Thank you for making it plain and simple. Very, very informative. Needed this.
We can easily squeeze extra life from the battery by installing an external switch to the headlight. Procedure would be to turn off the headlight via the external switch, turn on the key (now the battery won't go below 12, then start the vehicle, turn on the headlight switch. In NA, the headlight should always be ON. But this is only while starting. I faced this problem sometimes, and I carry a T5 screwdriver with me when I go for overnight trips. When I get clicking sounds, I turn off the key, remove the two screws for the headlight and disconnect the headlight, then it starts normally. Connect back, put back the screw and ride back home making sure to charge the battery via a battery tender. Anyways, good video and nice explanation.
Excellent video! My nephew has a Thruxton with this problem so I sent him your video and told him to keep a battery maintainer on it always. I have a 2014 T100 and three other bikes and five tenders (lawn mower). Well worth the cost!
Thank you for the tips. Have been struggling with the issue on Tiger 800XC SE for a couple of months. Tried recharging the battery to 100%, and it was spot on. It was not noticed earlier because the battery is new - less than 6 months, but it was leaking....so, will get a new one. Have a good day.
This is EXACTLY my problem with a new to me 2009 Rocket 3. I've had a couple of older Triumphs but this behavior is new to me. My biggest battery drain is the dual headlights and I see people have made modifications to manually switch the headlights to avoid this issue. Great description - THANKS!
There was a period when Triumph simply programmed the voltage threshold too high. You may find that Triumph has an updated patch for your ECU--they did for my 2010 Bonneville. In later years this problem seemed to go away, so they probably changed the threshold in the programming.
I am dealing with this exact issue with my Rocket III 2011, and I thought of some voltage threshold, because it is pretty random, but the service manual doesn't mention anything about this. So this video is the proof that I needed, and I will do what you did but with some hidden timer, to turn on lights only after the bike is running.
Brilliantly helpful video - Thanks so much for sharing - Just came back from being away 6 weeks with a Triumph Bonneville in a garage but connected to an Oxford Oximiser trickle charger but I think the cold damp British winter has attacked it's battery. Felt despair then Googled the problem - Found your video and we're all fixed again :-)
Glad it was helpful!
Did you change out the battery?
@@tinderboxarts 2007 triumph America ECU location
@joani I'm not familiar with that bike, but the ECU is typically hidden under the seat or deep in the frame for protection.
Yup! Similar problems with my 1050 tiger. I’ve learned that the ECU is very fussy about the voltage it’s getting. The battery has to be in tip top condition. Long story short…. If the bike doesn’t start when you know the battery should be fully charged, get a new battery. Can even be necessary if the battery’s only 2 or 3 years old.
EXACTLY what I was looking for today. THANK YOU for your instructive video!
Glad it was helpful!
@@tinderboxarts hello sir, looking to pick up a 2006 speed triple but it seems to have a problem starting recently and the only way to start it is by jumping it. I’ve been told it’s the relay sensor or something like that, when you try to start it, it just clicks. Do you happen to know anything or have suggestions on what to do? Thank you brotha good vid👍🏽
@Almighty Sosa If a starting relay is bad, it's bad no matter if you jump the bike or not. It sounds more like you have an issue with the battery or the cables/connections at the battery. You need to check the battery by confirming the resting voltage, voltage under load and charging voltage. This video shows you how: ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html
Turning the headlamp(s) via a aux. switch will work if the battery’s not too bad but the problem will return as the battery deteriorates. Worked on my 2007 tiger for a while. Just replaced it with a tiger sport. On this the headlamps stay off till it’s running. Very good videos. Great teaching voice. Nice one sir.
Great video, thanks! 17 street scrambler giving all the symptoms of this
Thanks very much for this! Tested my battery, 12.3 - So eliminated it as a problem. Then watched this video, boosted the bike... Vrrooom! Took it for a drive... Perfect!
I watched this video, and it makes sense. Now I know thanks to you is a voltage sensing issue. My 2013 Thrux has the issue, and it does that clicking try even after charging the battery, and it starts when it wants, but the other day I was taking off from a traffic light and stalled, and the bike will not start and got the hateful click. Had to push the bike on a heavy traffic road and once at the edge, the SOB started like new. I have a Carbed Bonneville without the stupid voltage monitor, and has NEVER, in 15 years of daily use, let me down. I watched your video after bypassing the solenoid with a screwdriver shorting old trick and the bike started perfect after not starting like supposed to. I am eliminating this crappy design and wire the solenoid coil directly to the switch, just like all the other bikes I had in 50+ years of riding daily. This little thing makes me not love this bike, although I love my 01 Bonneville. It is a super stupid design, some one some where for some NOT motorcyclist reason, had the idea of fixing something that has worked on all kinds of machines for years. I know that bad batteries burn alternators, maybe that was the idea behind this design, but it does not work, is intermittent, not safe not reliable, is, in simple words, garbage designed so people take their bikes ti the dealers so they can squeeze money from them. I commend you for showing the actual cause, a voltage monitor, which they have admited, is crap. I rather have a bike that blows the battery along with me, than being run over by a car because the computer thought it was safe for the Company profit to prevent a possible start. Triumph failed on this, it is garbage, I will not buy another EFI bike from them. Thanks for sharing your finds, you are a gentleman. So to get even, if you are planning on getting a newer Triumph, think about it twice, get a Jap, bikes that work, every time.
It is very frustrating. Of course, you should always check to make sure you don't have a different problem such as a loose ground or poor battery connections. Unfortunately this sort of problem is more and more common in vehicles of all types. They are all computer controlled now, and often there is not enough debugging or forethought in the SOFTWARE design, which then causes trouble in the real world. The hardware can be a brilliant design, but if the software is making stupid decisions or the logic is faulty, then it will never work well.
This was very helpful, had my baby sitting without any rides for few month and have same problem now. Getting charger tomorrow and hope it would solve the issue!
While I know it's not always realistic (because of time constraints) the best thing you can do for your "baby" is to ride her. Letting her sit for a few months does her a disservice. Riding her often will also recharge the battery. Best of luck.
Thanks, very useful information.
excellent stuff man, thank you
Great video mate - I have an old Triumph with a brand new battery that began showing the same issues. I'll have to do a symptom check and see if it's not leaking voltage or another issue, but great insight to see why the bike refuses to start despite the other signs of life.
It can be frustrating for sure. Now, remember that this is only going to be on bikes with an ECU. Much older bikes without a computer might have different starting issues.
AWESOME VIDEO! THANK YOU! Saved me a tow to the shop.
Wow, that's great to hear! Hope you got it all sorted.
@@tinderboxarts I did. THANK YOU!
Did you get your ECU flashed?
Thanks again for the video. I have the same issue with my T100 2009...
Great video, thank you!
Thanks , You saved me hours of looking to "fix" something that wasn't broken . My 2012 Tiger eats batteries , I can't get one to last more than 2 years , But my problem was not the Switch like the mechanic thought or my starter components . just the battery
Yeah, a marginal battery can cause all sorts of issues. However, you should be able to get more than two years from a battery. I routinely get 5-8 years. My son has the same bike as you, and I've coached him on getting battery life too. Check out this video and see if it helps: ua-cam.com/video/Ah2jcRzupgM/v-deo.html
I’ve just got this problem on my 2013 tiger. However my fuel pump doesn’t engage. Do you have any tips or advice? Thanks
@jared Arlett If your fuel pump doesn't spin up with the key in the on position, it either isn't getting power or it has failed. Test the battery condition first, then check the supply to the fuel pump if the battery looks good. ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html
great video! thank you!
If you replace standard with a Lithium motorcycle battery of similar dimensions, you get the benefits of less voltage drop, more cranking power and a bonus weight reduction. This is especially useful in a Triumph with their crappy sprag clutches that cost a fortune to replace and are sometimes still failing on modern models. Been there, done that with my '95 900 Sprint that had to have the engine removed, cases split and gear cluster removed to replace the sprag clutch. A winning move from Triumph would have been to fit an automotive type starter with the solenoid sliding the cog along the shaft to engage the flywheel or whatever ala Moto Guzzi starter motor. Of course the other Triumph ignition issue is intermittent failure of the ignition pickup coil that can breakdown when hot but operate again when cooled down and a real bugger to troubleshoot.
Of course, there are drawbacks to lithium batteries too. You need a compatible charger, they are more expensive, and they don't handle cold weather very well.
Thanks for this vid it has helped me.
Glad it helped!
Hi there!
i have a problem with my bonny t120 2016, i posted 2 videos on my channel, there is some issues with the electronic, today the service from my village just call me that he wasn’t able to find what is the problem with the fuse for the indicators clock alarm etc…. Actually the fuse was blown and obviously the indicators wasn’t working so i put a new fuse then the ignition went on with out the key inside (funny miracle) the indicators start working but then i try to start the motor but it couldn’t start.
Then i removed the fuse and i start the motor without the fuse and i put the fuse back, everything went fine but when i try to turn off the motor with the key i couldn’t, he keep working without the key inside…. I have posted 2 videos on YT i you can take a look and share any tips i would be thankful. Btw i already made appointment in triumph service but i need to wait 2-3 weeks.
Btw the service in my village think that the problem could be in the ignition that’s why i would like to know if there is option to put single gauge!
Sorry for the long comment.
So, in order to stay in the "classic scene", Triumph could/should have added a kick starter like in the old days?
Hihi... Ed.
There were some advantages!
YES!!!!!!!!!
This kind of stuff is why I prefer owning vintage motorcycles. I've only had a couple modern bikes, and they were always the ones giving me problems. When my old bikes give me a problem I can usually diagnose it and figure it out. With new ECU bikes, it's not always easy.
It's true, it can be frustrating. The irony is that in many ways the newer bikes (and cars) are actually simpler to diagnose and repair--except for one problem. The manufacturers do not release the information we need to do the work. There are some efforts in state and federal legislatures in the USA to force manufacturers of many things to provide repair data needed to do the work. But, the potential laws usually get shot down by manufacturer lobbyists working the congresses.
Hi tinderbox that’s just happened to me ☹️ that’s really helpful many thanks 👍
Thank you. Put me on the right track with my speed triple.
Ótimo vídeo
This issue has been driving me nuts. I have a stack of starter solenoids and have to buy a new battery every year or two.
You may have something else going on. You should be able to get 5-8 years out of a battery and if you have experience repeated failures then you may want to look at your charging system or the possibility of a parasitic draw. If your battery is always in a marginal condition you could have starting issues, but the problem isn't the starting circuit it's something keeping your battery from staying charged. I have a number of videos relating to battery life and also diagnosing parasitic draw.
From my experience if a battery reads 12.5 Volts or less it is starting to fail. When I first heard this advice I thought it was ridiculous but six 1.2 V cells should make 12.6 Volts. Once a battery gets below this it is only a matter of time. That 12.5 Volt battery may last you the rest of the season but it is not "healthy". Thanks for the video!
Well, you need to put those readings in perspective. First, your meter may lack accuracy. A couple-few tenths of a volt difference can easily be found among meters. Second, the state of charge of a the battery needs to be considered. Was it sitting for a few days, for a few weeks? Third, the state of the bike charging system needs to be checked. A battery with a lower voltage may just be undercharged at that moment due to a poorly functioning charging system. The best way to test a battery is to charge it completely with a good "smart" charger, then test the resting voltage, test for a surface charge, and then test the voltage under load. See this: ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html
@@tinderboxarts Agreed! And after all that recharging and load testing if your resting battery voltage reads 12.5 Volts then it won't be long!
Besides replacing batteries prematurely, have any other simple solutions appeared over the years to bring the voltage threshold down a bit? I remember reading somewhere that you could take it in to a TRIUMPH dealership and they could hijack the ECU into accepting lower amounts but I can't seem to find it again.
There was at least one official update from Triumph to lower the voltage threshold, which I know because it was done on my 2010 Bonneville. I'm sure it was part of an overall update, though, not a specific thing. Since they don't publish the programmed thresholds for various models and model years we can only guess. My suspicion is that somewhere around 2012 or 2013 it ceased to be an issue on the modern classics, and it may never have been an issue on other models. And, I don't want to make too big of a deal about this particular issue, because there are plenty of other reasons why a bike might not start.
As I understand it, the click sound is the noise the solenoid makes when the when the two heavy terminals are connected completing the circuit to the starter motor. Why then doesn’t the starter motor turn? When does the ÉCU interfere?(I was thinking that you may be able to get going by connecting the two heavy’s externally providing the battery’s got enough juice of course).
Yes, internal to the relay is an electro-mechanical device which closes contacts when a relatively low amperage circuit is used to control a higher amperage circuit. If there isn't enough current to completely close the contacts, or if there are dirty or broken contacts, or if the high amperage circuit isn't powered, then you can get a clicking or other noise without any result. The ECU in this case appears to control the ground to a number of circuits, which is how it can prevent normal starting. You could probably find a way to bypass that starting circuit and apply power directly to the starter. I've done that many times on old vehicles with the screwdriver trick across two terminals. But, you run the risk of melting the tip of the screwdriver and causing more damage.
Same story goes with the Tiger 800's too but bringing the ECU in the equation, super.
Confused I am !
If the ECU prevents the starter relay ground in a Low Battery voltage situation then how does the Relay get power to click like you said it would at time stamp 2.08 ?
The ECU supplies the only ground to the Solenoid if it cuts that circuit it would be impossible for the Relay to click surely ?
Well, two things. I should have been more clear in my explanation and I should also make clear that this is all still speculation. As far as I know nobody has reverse engineered the ECU programing, so we are just guessing. Anyway, the starter relay itself does appear to have it's own ground, according to the diagram. So, the click can happen. But the headlight cutout relay does not, and if memory serves it has a wire going to B6 on the ECU connector which is a needed ground. That is one of the suspicious grounds. However, the wiring diagrams are only good to a point, since the ECU is a black box and we don't really know what it's doing with the grounds. Some people have attempted some modifications and claim success. I have not tried this, but this forum post is the only one I'm aware of on the subject:
www.triumphrat.net/threads/strange-starting-issue.209534/page-19#post-6158521
Thanks a lot 🙏 just wanting to know if I don't get the stock battery of 12 volt and 10 Amp then will it be ok to use a battery rated 12volt 9amp or 12 volt 8.6 amp
Well, all batteries are going to be 12 volts. Batteries are further rated by Amp-hours and by Cold Cranking Amps. The amp-hour rating is mostly related to size. A larger battery will have a higher amp-hour rating because it can store more energy. The cold cranking amps is a measure of how strong a voltage a battery can maintain while cranking during cold temperatures. So, your bike will have a specification which is partially related to what can physically fit in the space given. If you use an undersized battery you may find that the battery cannot maintain minimum voltage while cranking, and therefore you would have hard starts.
Thank you.
6 years isn’t too bad for a battery and as you say it was shot so for piece of mind best to replace 👍🏻
anyone know where the odb2 hookup on this bike is? I am considering buying a connector to tune but want to verify the plug first. I see the ecu but shouldn't there be an empty obd2 connector somewhere?
Which bike? Typically it is located under the seat in a dry spot.
Hello sir. I had a question regarding the fuse on my triumph storm .whenever I try to start my bike it would crank and the number 10 fuse would pop.
The bike rode fine my husband deployed. I kept battery charged. When he got back I put fresh gas and tried to start it ne this was when I began having this issue. Any advise?
I believe that fuse is the starter circuit. There could be lots of things wrong, but if the fuse is popping then you have a short somewhere. One possibility is in the starter switch itself. Another is that you have a wire which has rubbed through which is hitting ground. If the bike has been sitting for a long period a mouse could have chewed through wire insulation or you could have moisture in the switch. The first thing I would do is a close visual inspection. Get up a few inches from the wires coming from the start switch and the fuse box and look for anything unusual. Try a hairdryer on the switch if you suspect moisture. Beyond that you need to get out a meter and trace the circuit to find the short.
Great video. Have an O7 triumph tiger 1050. Should there be any parasitic draw on any of the fuses? Have .51 ma on fuse 4. No matter what I unplug the draw is there. Blinkers, horn, alarm, etc.
That is a fuel-injected bike, which means it has a computer to control the fueling and timing, as well as other things. The computer, and possibly the instrument cluster, needs a very small amount of power so it can store in memory the data it collects during use. There is some non-volatile memory in these computers, too, but it is normal for there to be a very small draw when the bike is off. The amount of draw you describe may very well just be the normal draw the computer and/or cluster needs for it's function. It shouldn't be enough to drain the battery quickly, so if you are having that issue you may need to look elsewhere. I have a video on this subject for a different bike, but it may help put your mind at ease: ua-cam.com/video/AhqZwLnD9Jk/v-deo.htmlsi=9civH9jU8e_kfYjA
Shared this with our triumph 1050 Facebook forum! Thanks again!
I may be wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me if I am, but I believe the inability to try to start when the voltage is low is to protect the sprag clutch, I have seen an upgrade for the sprag clutch on a Triumph spares site but can't remember which one.
I have heard that explanation as well. Whatever the reason, Triumph set the voltage bar a little high!
Amigo seria tan amable de emviarme la imagen completo del diagrama por favor
There is no way to do that here, but you could look for the Haynes manual, which is where that diagram came from.
Mine has started doing this again. All night on a battery tender and then the click. Battery is 9mths old. I just bridge the terminals on the starter relay with a screwdriver and it starts.
Well, use a meter to see what your voltage is and if it looks a little low that could be your issue. On the other hand, don't overlook the possibility that you have a poor connection or damaged cable somewhere either.
@@tinderboxarts I will do that. It only happens on cold mornings
If it is temperature dependent that does typically point to the battery. Do your voltage tests when it is cold, then. The age of a battery doesn't always indicate it's condition. Make sure you test the charging voltage with the bike running, too, because you could have a charging system issue. A parasitic draw from an alarm or GPS or other device can also be an issue. I have videos on how to test for all of that.
Gread vid 👍 08 t100r black-mines doing the same with a new battery. I changed the starter relay too..
Your '08 version is carbureted, correct? In your case a starting problem would not be related to the computer, but something else. If you are getting a click from the starter, you should examine the starter circuit for poor grounds or connections, check the starter relay, and double-check your battery as well. Just because it is new doesn't mean it can't be faulty or be undercharged.
@@tinderboxarts it's weird, it's always bn registered as and on paperwork 08 but it's fuel injected. It's a new relay, but I do think it's the battery too. Thank you for the help and I will be checking the wiring too.
E.C.U' are programed not to send start below a certain volt. Headlight drains a bit of voltage on ignition too.
That is weird. I'm pretty sure Triumph started making the EFI models in 2009, with many registered as 2010. Well, whatever the registration says, if it is fuel injected then the problem shown in the video could very well be your problem too. Below a certain voltage it is programmed to prevent starting. I do think that some EFI models had a firmware update which made the voltage threshold less severe, so you should ask your local dealer if there is an update available.
@@tinderboxarts thank you for sharing your knowledge 👍 I will speak to the local dealer and go from there. Thank you again .
Can anyone help i got a thunderbird 1600 2011 and im driving down rd after few miles bike cuts out but re starts and does same i taken it to dealer who done test cant find probem replaced fuel line ect i thought ignition sensor ? Any help be great
If your bike is acting normally but then randomly just shuts down, it's almost certainly an electrical issue and probably one of the safety sensors, such as a kickstand sensor or even the kill switch. To find the problem, pay attention to when EXACTLY the problem occurs. Is there a bump on the road just before? Did you just finish shifting? Did your foot brush the sidestand? Look for a pattern.
Beyond that, take a meter and check the various switches for function. Check continuity in the wiring harness between the sensor and computer with an ohmmeter, and wiggle each wire with the meter connected. Look for a drop out on the meter when you wiggle a particular place. You can even do it without a meter--start the bike and let it idle. Then wiggle the wiring harness and switches inch by inch to see if you can cause the engine to shut down like it does on the road.
My 2009 scramble has a good battery and starter relay. Fuel pump and everything primes. When I hit the start button i hear no click and no crank at all. The button seems to do nothing. Any ideas what it could be?
Are you certain about the battery? MANY people make assumptions without actually testing. I'll put a link below. That aside, it could well be that the starter button or wiring to it could be bad. You can test this with an ohmmeter on the wiring as you press the button. You can use piercing probes if you can't find somewhere on the harness to disconnect. The issue could also be the starter itself or wires/cables having poor connections. Start with the battery, and then test each circuit from there. If you don't measure voltage to the starter at all when you press the start button, though, then the issue lies in the switch or that primary starting circuit.
ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html
@@tinderboxarts Yes the battery is reading a little above 13V. And the starter solenoid is receiving above 12v of power. I'll test the switch and hope it is that.
My speed Triple starts from cold, but after a run when hot will turn over but not fire up. Battery good voltage and fuses all good.
Anytime you have a no-start issue, you have to methodically consider three things required for an engine to run. You need: an air/fuel mix, you need spark and you need compression. In your case the bike will run when started from cold, so a compression problem is unlikely. That leaves fuel and spark as potential issues. It's not uncommon for an engine to show issues only when warmed up or only when cold. Sometimes that fact points to areas of concern, actually.
You need to do some basic troubleshooting now. With the bike warmed up, shut it down confirm that it will not start. Checking for spark is not difficult. There are several ways of doing this, you can pull a spark plug coil and a plug and hold the spark plug electrode to a ground while you crank the starter. Do you see a spark jump? Then you just eliminated that potential problem. There are also spark checkers you can buy which sit between the coil and plug and show you in a clear tube any spark going through. It doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you can confirm there is some spark.
With that eliminated, it leaves fuel. There are many potential problems with the fuel system and heat or time from a warmed up engine. You can check that the fuel pump is coming on at all by listening for a whine when you turn the key to the on position. If you don't hear that whine, you many have an electrical problem leading to the pump, or the pump itself may be faulty. You can also check the harness with a meter to see if the pump is being supplied a voltage. If you do hear the whine, then the next question is if the fuel is getting to the cylinders. One potential issue is a fuel tank which develops a vacuum as the engine runs because of faulty venting. You can temporarily remove the gas cap to check for that problem while to try the starter. Another potential is that the pump is feeding the fuel injectors but they are not getting a signal or they are faulty. You can spray a little starting fluid from a can into the intake while you attempt starting and if the engine sputters to life, that tells you fuel is not getting to the cylinders. So start with some of these procedures and see if you can narrow down the problem to either spark or fuel.
Hey Tinderbox..., I have a 2006 Triumph scrambler that starts just fine but shuts off about a half hour into a ride. The bike will generally shut off mid ride and need to sit for about a half hour in order for it to be able to start again. The bike's ignition will turn over but the bike will not start when it's in dead mode. Curious if you have any experience with this issue.
You'll need to do some testing to figure out the issue. Either you are losing spark or losing fuel and there are lots of potential reasons for each. If the spark is shutting down it could be a marginal component or connection which fails when it gets hot. If it's fuel related it could be a plugged vent line to the fuel tank or an electrical issue with the pump. When you get to a failed condition you can spray some starting fluid into the intake while you are cranking. If you get a sputter out of the engine then you have a fuel problem. If you do not get a sputter you should check for spark by pulling a plug, grounding the electrode, and looking for spark while you crank. Of course, it could also be a general problem, such as a loose battery or ground connection.
@@tinderboxarts This is really helpful... I'll start here and see where it gets me. I was under the impression it might be a pickup pulse sensor but I switched that out and I am still having the same issue with the bike. It shuts off when it heats up and takes about 30 minutes to cool down. Thing starts right back up only to do it all over again. Super frustrating as I thought this bike would be reliable daily driver and it's become a nightmare to deal with. Basically been unrideable for months.
no spark at coiln in triumph motorcycles 2010. The owner he put the battery in wrong position he put the Minos with pulse and plus with Minos and there cranking and there is electrical now but no spark from coil any advise
Well, check all the fuses, obviously, and look for any burned wiring or fusible links. You'll need to go over the whole electrical system to check for issues, and that includes the ECU. It's possible that was cooked when the battery polarity was wrong. You can check the coils with a meter. Here's a video showing how to do it: ua-cam.com/video/M3dEXUiGq90/v-deo.html
I was having same problem. I changed the battery, but now a new problem. The motor is cranking but not firing up. What could be the reason?
Well, the two problems aren't necessarily related. It's possible you had more than one issue and if it wasn't attempting to start before, you would never have known that it couldn't start! It's also possible that you caused a new problem in the process of replacing the battery. In any case, if the bike is turning over easily now, but not starting, you'll need to do basic troubleshooting for fuel and for spark. You didn't mention the bike or model year. If it is a fuel injected bike, is the fuel pump spinning up when you turn the key to the on position? As a quick test for a fuel injected or carbureted bike you can spray some starting fluid into the intake and see if you get a sputter of life out of the engine. If you determine that you are getting fuel and the starting fluid does nothing, then turn your attention to the ignition system. Pull a spark plug, ground the electrode and look for a spark. Or, if that is difficult, pull the spark wire and ground out a spare spark plug to look for the same thing. If you find no spark, then you need to diagnose the ignition system.
My 2010 street triple cranks but doesn't start. Could this be battery related? Didn't have time to take any readings but will after work.
When you say it cranks--do you mean it turns over at normal speed but just doesn't "catch" in order to run? If that's the case, then you have something else going on. The battery just needs to be strong enough to meet the minimum voltage if the ECU demands it and to turn over the engine quickly enough to create engine vacuum and pull the air/fuel mix in. If the cranking speed is too low it can prevent starting, but you can usually tell that by ear.
I have a similar issue, I've read it could be the stator and voltage regulator others say the clutch sensor. As of now the bike is at the dealer. Hopefully it gets fixed. Mine won't start after it gets hot, I'd have to let it cool down
@@R3nat002 A few on the triumphrat forum website list a common problem being the ignition pickup coil that fails (no spark at all) when hot but operates completely normally once cooled down, only to stop working again once warmed up.
My 76 bobber has no battery.new plugs n wires n points...wont fire.any ideas?
Oh, geez, that would be tough to diagnose from afar. Start with checking for spark at the spark plugs--pull a plug, hold the electrode to ground and see if there is a spark when the engine is turned by a helper. If there is, that eliminates the ignition system and you have a fuel or compression issue. If there isn't, then start working your way backwards from the plugs.
if it is sending power to the relay it is trying to start, could the relay contacts be burned
It is possible, of course, to actually have a bad relay. But, the problem I was referencing in the video is when the ECU is preventing starting. So, if you are in doubt you can test the relay by itself and you can check the battery voltage to see if it is low enough that the ECU would intervene.
Does anyone happen to know where the ECU is for the Trident 660? I’m trying to send mine in for a tune but I don’t know where it’s at 😫
I don't know that bike, but the ECU will always be hidden somewhere protected from water, typically under the seat area or under the gas tank.
@@tinderboxarts under the seat area, probably. I’ve checked and I don’t know if I’d have to take the battery off. If it’s under the tank then I’d have to call the dealer then to see
My 2017 Tiger 800XCA is playing the same game, but I'm not convinced it's the battery. The battery is a two year old Shorai and measures 13.3v with no load. I haven't done a load test yet (it's raining as I type this). But when I press start, there is no "click" sound from the solenoid, which btw is under the battery. I was able to start the bike ONCE by jumping battery positive to the starter -- it fired right up and idled. Since then, it will try to start, but won't fire at all. I'm stumped and the dealer won't look at it for a month. Doesn't help that I'm on a trip and had plans for it.
Well, of course, there are plenty of reasons for a no-start issue. Potentials include the ignition switch, the cables and connectors, kill-switch, or a safety switch (kickstand, gear, tip-over). All you can do is methodically go through these possibilities with a meter and test. However, I will say, often a thorough visual inspection up close and personal will reveal a problem. We jump to the hard stuff sometimes without first using our eyes for the obvious.
Believe me. It’ll be the battery. Change it or borrow a friends.
i've had this exact thing happen to me at a gas station on my 2016 Triumph America... rode there, gassed up, key on, click... no start... :(
Yeah, it can be a disheartening event, for sure!
Did you take your bike in to flash the ECU? Will a Triumph dealer charge for that?
Under some circumstances the dealer might update the ECU for free if Triumph has posted a technical bulletin about a problem, or if your bike is in for some other reason they may do it gratis. You could always ask, but the cost wouldn't be much anyway.
Hi can u pls help or comment my ecu has gone as per triumph service center they are saying neutral and fuel pump not working there software gone. Can it be repaired. Pls help..They are saying i sholud buy new ECU pls help..which is very costly..I have Rocket 3 Roadster old model.
It's hard for me to give advice from a distance. But, I will say that actual failures of an ECU are pretty rare. If your mechanic is claiming that the ECU is failed, he should also be able to describe the other troubleshooting he did to eliminate the possibility of other problems. If in doubt, get a second opinion.
The thing is, how much volts ECU reads and that can be a bit diferent then measurment by instrument. If you conect OBD cable and read voltage by softvare, and paralel read voltage by instrument and compare it, it wont be the same. Softvare reading is more corect due to ECU start the bike or not by that value.
It's true that the ECU may sense a different voltage than a meter. In fact, two meters side by side may not read the same. However, a meter is needed to do tests on the battery and to do troubleshooting. Ideally you own a meter that you come to know and trust through experience.
The only doubt that comes to me is, if we all hear the "click" and it is in the starter relay, so why the starter motor does nothing? The ECM should evaluate the battery voltage before the starter relay "clicks", because when the relay is on the starter motor will drop the voltage dramatically even with a new battery. So my question is why it clicks and nothing happens?
Well, sometimes the relay could click just because there isn't enough voltage available to fully engage the relay and the starter. You have a nearly dead battery and it's enough power to make the relay move but not enough to turn over the starter. This was a common occurrence on older vehicles. Is that what you're referring to? In the case of the ECU control, I suppose the relay is clicking because power is momentarily engaged before the ECU cuts it out, but I'd have to test that hypothesis.
Something very odd going on here. I've seen the same problem on the Triumph forum. The guy's bike would turn over and start every time if he manually operated the relay armature by closing the relay contacts using a piece of wood. Yet using the starter switch would just get the click from the relay and you could see the relay armature moving. No starter motor movement and no dimming of instrument lights though. Starter motor is still going to turn over at a lot less than 12V and when at full cranking amps will possibly drop the battery terminal voltage to nearer 10V but bike will still start. Operation of the relay contacts when closed as normal by starter switch energising the relay coil needs close inspection. One of those simple faults that are often far from straightforward.
Can you bridge the solenoid posts or would that upset the ecu ?
You might be able to use the old screwdriver trick across the starter terminals, I never tried it. That method, which I used as a teen on my '75 Chevy, often causes an arcing meltdown if you don't get your timing just right!
@@tinderboxarts fully agree but a high torque starter on a small block will draw a bit more current than a Triumph. If it’s just a case of the earth maybe a second earth on the solenoid ? Just thinking allowed as I’m about to buy my first Triumph and all this talk about electrical issues makes me look towards carbs😂
What if the bike has been sitting for 6months. You turn the key and nothing happens (no lights no fuel pump noise-nothing). Then you replace the battery -TWICE. You hook up the same batteries to a vespa and speed triple. Batteries work fine. When you touch the cables to the battery nodes it sparks so a circuit is being made. But of course turning the key does nothing. Any ideas? I can't bump start it bcos it coincidentally has developed a clutch cable issue I am fixing separately...
Dude. Buy yourself a cheap multimeter. Guessing at the issue is an expensive way to troubleshoot. With these sorts of issues you want to first confirm that the battery is good and fully charged. I have another video showing how to test a battery and what to look for. With that out of the way you can test other components. If you turn the key to the "on" position and get nothing--no headlight or fuel pump-- there are a number of possibilities, including bad cables or connectors, a faulty ignition switch, a blown fuse (if the bike has fuses), or faulty safety switches. You didn't mention which bike you are working on, but these are common to many bikes. With a multimeter to can disconnect and test the switches, you can test cables and grounds, you can test fuses. Finally, a thorough visual inspection can be helpful. You wouldn't be the first rider to have a mouse chew through a wiring harness while the bike has been sitting a long time.
@@tinderboxarts thanks for your reply I appreciate it! it's a bonnie scrambler with a choke like yours. The battery definitely is good, it starts my speed triple and vespa and the wires spark in the scrambler. The fuses and wiring looks immaculate. In the past I lost the keys once and hot-wired the ignition barrel to start it - doing it again the wires sparked the ignition-barrel circuit but no life across the bike. Taken all the bits off and there's no damage on the wire loom. It's just such a head scratcher I wanted to talk about it with anyone who has done work themselves too
@@tinderboxarts oh and I have a trusty multimeter but I don't know what to test it on really. Like I said seems like the circuits are in tact. You know a lot about the circuits and engine computer, I don't think it's the same issue of voltage threshold you mention in the video. Are there any other weird behaviours you know of?
You are making assumptions, though. The battery may start another bike, but that doesn't mean it's in good shape. A battery at 12.2 volts may start a Vespa, but not start a Scrambler. You want to make certain the battery is fully charged, in the 12.5-12.8 range. If the tested good battery is installed and you get no lights or fuel pump noise, then check the battery ground with your meter. Do you get the same voltage across the battery terminals as you do with one lead on the positive battery terminal and the other lead on the frame or a ground somewhere else? If not, then you have a loose or corroded ground. Did you test the fuses with an ohmeter? Looking at a fuse doesn't mean it's good (see ua-cam.com/video/OlRLQvjx8mk/v-deo.html). It can be broken internally. Did you test the ignition switch with an ohmmeter? It may not be functioning. Did you test the safety switches (kickstand, clutch, kill switch) with a ohmmeter? One of them could be bad or the wiring faulty. You're hearing hoof beats and thinking about zebras, but horses are much more common. Like I said, if the battery is good and you are getting no response at all from turning the key, then it's likely something major like a bad ground, faulty switch, or broken wire.
So you could jump start it then in this case ?
If you can get the voltage up over the threshold, it should start, yes. And, you may be able to "bump" start it as well, since the fuel pump will spin up even though the starter won't engage. See this: ua-cam.com/video/pIvB6iI7atU/v-deo.html
2005 speed triple ...low battery caused sprag clutch to faulter causing starter motor spline to sheer. Next starter problem was clutch switch , next starter problem was the press start connector plate , stator , solenoid ....im selling the bloody thing lol
Wow, if you didn't have bad luck you'd have no luck at all!
I’m not even getting a click, I changed the switch new relay, and I’m not getting a click 2009 Tiger 1050 bench tested the starter it works idk what the hell it could be
Always start with the battery--have you tested the battery for resting voltage (should be high 12s) and for voltage under load? It's possible to have a surface charge on the battery which appears in a normal range, but as soon as a load is applied the voltage drops dramatically and is unable to fire the starting circuit. Once the battery is confirmed in good shape, check the cables and connectors visually and with a meter to make sure you don't have a poor connection causing a voltage drop. Then you can look at the starting circuit to see if you have an issue with a safety switch (kickstand, etc.), with the key switch, or with a component like a relay, starter solenoid, or starter. You've got to be methodical about it or you'll miss the problem.
I added a new starter relay to my triumph Thunderbird 2010 model. I can feel the relay click when I try to start it. The horn will not honk. Sometimes I can hear the starter click I think.
If I put it in neutral, can I hook up a battery cable directly to the starter motor without removing it to test? Negative to frame and positive to starter post?
I wouldn't recommend it. Bike starters are expensive and you could melt the post or whatever. I've done my fair shair of screwdriver shorts across starter solenoids, but that was on cheap automotive starters! Better to get a meter out and do some troubleshooting. Make no assumptions. Clearly there is a shortage of voltage. Is the problem the battery itself? Is the problem bad cables or connections? Is the problem in the starter itself? You can also test the relay. Be methodical and I'll bet you narrow it down in 20-30 minutes. The battery should be at mid to high 12 volts and when you turn the key the headlight may bring it down a little. If the battery does not react at all to pressing the start button then move on to cables and connectors.
@@tinderboxarts Good info. Thank you.
My first battery on my Bonneville lasted less than two years. I was not impressed. I also had to replace all the cables last month (luckily Triumph agreed to pay, despite it not being under guarantee). It would have cost 1,200 euros. Now the mechanic says the starter relay needs replacing, but I'm wondering if it's simply that the battery is low on juice. It's been another two years since the previous change. It shouldn't be that, but considering the previous problem with the battery, it may be. None to happy.
Battery issues cause all sorts of headaches, but they are really pretty simple to troubleshoot. The problem is that riders and mechanics often make assumptions about the battery or charging system rather than actually test it. What are the reasons a battery might only last two years? They include improper initial charging on installation, sitting too long before initial use or between uses, parasitic draw from things like alarms, lights or electronic devices left on, bad cables or poor connections, a marginal or failing charging system, and more. So your really must test to know, starting with the battery itself and working from there. With a simple and inexpensive multimeter you can do these tests yourself. See these videos:
ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/6zcSZ4-oFJc/v-deo.html
Ours won't start in high heat. Why? The antenna which detects a chipset in the key fails.
You didn't mention the bike or the year, but if you are having trouble with key fob recognition, that's a different problem. It's actually not uncommon, either. I don't know why, specifically, your problem only occurs in high ambient temps. However, when temperatures rise, metal components expand and sometimes that can make a difference in electrical or physical connectivity. This could occur in the fob itself with battery connectivity, or in the receiver on the bike, or perhaps somewhere in the wiring harness. You might be able to do some experimenting with a hairdryer. In a garage or otherwise cool environment, try heating up specific items or areas with a hairdryer and see if you can duplicate the problem. Start with the fob itself.
@@tinderboxarts 2016 triumph Street triple r
And sidebar: thank you for responding to my short comments. I'm juggling my research for a solution and am sort of "blasting" my problem wherever I find discussions.
Start with the fob itself, replacing the battery and making certain that the battery contacts are clean and making solid contact with the new battery. As I said earlier, these keyless ignition systems are known to have issues across many manufacturers. The problems generally are fob battery related, or the inability of the bike keyless module to pick up the signal, or a problem with the keyless module communicating with the rest of the bike due to an internal failure or poor wiring harness connection. If you get nowhere with the fob and don't see an obvious issue with the module, you may need to visit a dealer.
@@tinderboxarts it's not a battery operated fob. In fact, it's not a fob at all. The key is mechanical ... but it has an electromagnetic chip in it (non-battery) that reflects a signal back to the immobilizer.
I get the same click on my 2013 T100. Then I put the tender on and it starts. My battery is 3 years old and should last at least 4.
Battery life can vary greatly. I get 5-8 years out of mine, but there are reasons life can be cut short. You should test your battery first (see ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html) and also consider this: ua-cam.com/video/ryUtqYQrWrs/v-deo.html
My 2008 Sprint does this thing where it turns over once then stops. Does this multiple times then all of a sudden will crank 6-7 times and the bike starts. Battery load tested perfect. 🤷
There are a number of possibilities, including the start switch itself, starter relay, wiring and connectors, and the starter itself. Most likely you have a poor contact or loose connection somewhere in the circuit, but I would begin by putting a meter on the start switch to see if it is giving inconsistent performance. The starter relay would be my second examination, and after that you'll have to trace the starter circuit to look for poor connections.
Hi Mr Tinder,,,, My question is kindoff about a starting issue,,, but its not... I was riding when suddenly a warning below the rev counter started flashing ... I went to the forums and it turns out it was the anti theft alarm... It is fitted with Cr123A batteries.... Now I have never heard anything about these batteries and there is very little to read on the subject... Do you know anything about replacing these batteries? Of course I may be barking up the wrong tree,and the so called experts may know as much as me!!!
You didn't mention what bike you're riding. In any case, if you see a dash warning light while riding I highly doubt it has anything to do with an alarm system. Check your manual first for the probable cause of the light, and you may need to scan the computer for deeper meaning. Dealers can do that and some bikes can be accessed using software on a laptop,
@@tinderboxarts yeah I ride a BM R1200RT,,, The manual says that warning light is for the Alarm system,,as I said its just below the rev counter.... Even when I turned the ignition off the light kept flashing,,infact its still flashing two days later,,,maybe I should have disconnected the main battery.... There is very little information regarding the alarm system out there
@@tinderboxarts No it was diffinately the alarm,,, I have since replaced the batteries in the black box that is situated below the back rack ,,I found it a swine of a job to release the box from its home,, but once out very easy todo...replacing the rack and other bits is another matter,,, did you know the rack comes in three pieces!!!! Anyway all good now,,,,and no warning lights,,, (Dealers! yuck wash your mouth out!!!!) I enjoy your channel,, stay safe
I’m having the exact same thing happening with my 2016 America.
If you have tested that the voltage level is the problem, and not something else like a bad relay, then you'll want to examine your battery to make sure it isn't becoming marginal, test your charging system to make sure it is doing it's job, and check the cables and connections for corrosion. I guess the good news is that if you do maintain the voltage above the threshold then everything should work fine.
I have a brand new battery. My horn went out shortly after, so I replaced it with a new horn. It worked upon installation. I rode it that night, had no issues. Went to start it again to ride home, and I had the “click” issue 5-6 times. I took the key out, put it back in, and the bike started right up. Rode it today, 24 hours later, bike is starting normally but the new horn is not working. Any idea what this might be? Is it possible I switched the power and ground cables on the horn which caused a starting issue until a fuse blew? Sry don’t know much about electronics. Thank you for any and all help.
Mine is a 15 T100
It's pretty tough to venture a guess from a distance, but you have to start with the basics. Make no assumptions. Is the new battery even good? Are your connections done right? Is the charging system working? You should do some basic testing on the battery first to make sure it is charging and holds a charge. Then you can check the horn issue. I would first disconnect the horn completely, then do the battery tests. One thing at a time. See this video on how to test your battery: ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html
@@tinderboxarts thanks a bunch for your reply. I’ll start with a battery test and go from there. Being a brand new battery, I didn’t test it before use.
As a followup, since I posted my original comment, the bike is starting normally and replacement horn is working properly with no adjustments except pressing the connections in on the horn to make sure they were secure (which might be what fixed it).
If there were a bad connection on the horn when I was experiencing the issue, could that have caused the starting issue?
No, that's just coincidence. However, it is possible you have a loose connection at the battery or a cable that is faulty and in the process of moving things around you are temporarily fixing the problem. Take a hard look at the wiring to see if anything looks amiss.
I've had an old Audi that was the same way. It was reading 11.7 volts but said "no way Jose", I'm not engaging the starter lol
I just replaced the battery in a '11 Speed Triple and it started right up and about 4hr later would turn over and sounded strong, but for whatever reason, wouldn't fire the bike up. We bump started it and it felt fine, turned it off and back on with no problem. A little while later, would again turn over but not start. Again, this is a new battery, followed directions and charged the battery before install, not sure what's going on. Any help would be appreciated.
When you say the bike will still turn over but not start, do you mean that you press the start button and you get the starter spinning the engine at a healthy speed but it just won't catch? If so, you may have a health battery but a second problem, such as a fuel pump or ignition issue. But, start with the battery and confirm that it is healthy first. You need to know the resting voltage, the voltage under load and the charging voltage. See this video-- ua-cam.com/video/d-5xA31nBd8/v-deo.html. Once you've confirmed the battery is good, you can look for other issues. Do you hear or feel the fuel pump spin up when you turn the key to the on position? Have you confirmed spark? Without an air/fuel mix or ignition your bike isn't going to start no matter the battery. But, confirm the battery first and work out from there.
@@tinderboxarts Thank you very much for the reply. It's not often these days you get some good info. Yes, I mean the engine will spin/turn over but will barely cough, so I was thinking it was a fuel issue. After watching this video I'm thinking maybe the battery just doesn't have enough to get the ECU going to fire the injectors. The battery is a middle-of-the-road brand and shows a good 12.4-12.5V after a charge but under load it is closer to 10.2-10.4V. Again, this is a brand new battery that may just not have enough CCA to get the ECU going? When we first installed the battery, the bike started right up and sounded great. A few hours later it would spin but no fire. We managed to bump start it and again, sounded great and idled fine so I'm ruling out fuel issue. Thanks again.
When you say the battery is 10.2 volts under load, do you mean during the moment that the starter is engaged and turning over the engine, that's what your meter reads? If so, then your battery is fine. But, if you mean you just turn the key with the lights on and the voltage drops to that number then the battery is a problem. The ECU, ignition and even the fuel pump draw very little power relative to the starter. So if you can bump start the bike then it would appear that there is enough power for the fuel pump and the ignition. If your battery is weak, it may not be turning the engine over fast enough to create compression/vacuum. That's why it's important to understand exactly when you get that voltage reading.
@@tinderboxarts Yes, 10.2V under a load test or while trying to start the engine. We even swapped with a brand new battery I had on hand and still had the same problem, so you're right, not a battery issue in my mind. All lights/dash come on as usual, the bike turns over, but no fire. I'm going to check spark plugs and injector(s) today unless you know a better place to start.
Okay, if you have 10.2 volts with the starter engaged, that's all you can ask. And, the ECU is allowing the bike to attempt to start, so that's not the issue nor is a failed safety switch. The bike will run and it will bump-start, so you must have compression in the cylinders. That leaves spark and fuel. It could be that you have a loose wire or corroded connector which is preventing the ignition or fuel system from working under certain conditions. Perhaps bump-starting also jiggles the right wire. So you need to test for spark. Pull a spark plug and coil from one cylinder and hold the spark plug electrode to a good ground. Have a helper try the starter switch for a few seconds. If you see a blue spark jump the spark plug gap, then you have enough spark to start the bike. If you don;t see a blue spark, you have an ignition problem. To test the fuel system, do you hear the fuel pump spin up with the key turned to the on position? If you squirt some starting fluid into the air intake while a helper attempts to start the bike, do you get the engine at least sputter? That would point to a fuel system problem.
I have a 2022 Street Triple RS GUESS WHAT? Triumph still have not resolved this issue. I took my bike into the shop Friday it’s sat in my garage on a charger since then. I went to start it yesterday as it was a gorgeous day out. Dead. The running lights work. Nothing else. Triumph make beautiful garbage. DON’T buy Triumph unless you would rather not ride.
Before you give up, take a closer look. There could be other reasons why your bike isn't starting. First, check the resting voltage of the battery and see if it is at least in the low to mid 12 volt range. if it isn't, then really your problem is an undercharged or faulty battery. Don't rely on your charger display, use a proper multimeter. Second, if the battery checks out, take a look at your starter circuit for loose connections or damaged cables. I realize your bike is brand new, but I've heard and seen quite a number of new bikes in the last couple of years which were poorly prepped by the dealers who sold them, resulting in unnecessary problems. It seems like lately the dealers are not going over the new bikes in any detail before they sell them.
I have 2015 rocket 3. Fuel pump will not prime. Took it to dealer they charged $350 to clean 3 fuel injectors it ran for a couple days and will not start now. 1240miles spent more time sitting than riding. What a piece of garbage!
I think your anger and frustration may be misdirected. Rather than the bike, your problem is likely the dealer and the mechanics there. The level of expertise at dealerships of all brands has declined markedly over the years. Very often I see problems which shouldn't be difficult to fix that drag on because the mechanics just aren't doing basic troubleshooting. If your own skills are not up to the task I would suggest trying to find an independent mechanic or another dealer. There's no reason you can't have that bike running like a top other than the expertise of those working on it.
Found it. There was a bad O ring between the fuel pump and FPR. So there was no pressure to the injectors. Thx.
That's good to hear. Did you find it yourself, or did one of the mechanics finally figure it out?
I did, took the fuel assembly out put the end in water and plugged in the harness and saw where it was leaking. Then replaced pump, regulator, fuel filter.
Well, that warms my bitter, shriveled heart! I do think working on your own bike is part of the riding experience, and you have just shown that with a little persistence and thoughtfulness you can solve tricky problems yourself. Well done.