Is Ting-Lu Ruining Competitive Pokemon?
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- Опубліковано 8 вер 2024
- Is Ting-Lu Ruining Competitive Pokemon? A Pokemon that can reliably spam Fissure? Ting-Lu received a lot of usage at the latest VGC tournament, and a decent amount of them use Fissure, a 30% Move to OHKO.
Not exactly, but it's really annoying.
Edited by: / tazprods
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Fissure hits as often as Focus Blast misses. So pretty much 100% of the time.
100% of the time when your opponent use it.
lmao you are right
But it stacks with stomping tantrum
And scald burns. That math checks out.
Tell that to the top 4 player who got there by LUCK
Kinda funny that everyone was talking how Fissure Ting-Lu could be viable, and then it was REALLY viable
Hello Xavier
It was funny until it wasn't
Aren't OHKO moves forbidden? Which format is?
@@unknownartist689 VGC, the official, nintendo endorsed format
got jumpscared watching this
Was wondering if you would turn up
Yooo smant VGC arc when?
I got jumpscared by this comment
Smallant competing in VGC would be interesting. Speed runner takes on a strategy game
Yoooo what's up tinyant
Legend says he lost to double Fissure and made this video
Seriously tho, production quality is sick, well done
The latter half definitely feels like "stop using fissure guys this is unhealthy for competitive" propaganda 😂
"omg what a garbage play so garbage" 🤣🤣
@@Vassilinia more like “stop complaining it’s not that good”
@@unwweyrich4661 At which I answer: It does not need to be good to be unfair.
The subtitles are an excellent addition
Between this and Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu in singles I'd say the Treasures of Ruin are truly living up to their name at least.
Fr, they def the treasures of ruining competitive
they be ruining the treasures of competitive Pokemon
Except for Wo-Chien.
@@gameboy3d943 live wo-chien reaction
Built to be a menace and lives like villain. Truly the pokemon of all time.
"It removes agency"
Blunder fans in shambles
😭
lmao wanted to comment this
The existence of sturdy and ground immunities give you agency
@@owenblount7334 While the usefulness of sturdy mons and lack of power of flying types removes agency to that strategy.
@@owenblount7334 Name me good Sturdy mons that are seeing use right now, or mons with Sturdy as an ability that would rather use it if they have a better ability. I'm legitimately curious, because I can't think of any.
For me as an outstander it seems quite obvious: Nintendo has created so much defensive power creep over the years, that the playerbase has now reached a point at which using a 1 hit K.O. move is the preferrable option to bashing a mon with regular attacks for 8 turns
So Landorus is coming to save VGC as a flying type...who would have thought?
“We’re saved!”
“I wouldn’t say that, more like ‘under new management’”
Lando always makes the meta healthier
@@sptflcrw8583 watch it getting fissure xD
Landoros is probably the best pokemon ever made competitive wise
Both forms are really strong but landoros t just dominates
Kid named iron bundle
I think Big Yellow put it pretty well. Pokémon is always going to have elements of luck, but it becomes a problem when your strategies rely on luck.
That's why people despise toxapex. It oftentimes relies on scald burns and if you're burned you will not break through the great wall.
@@N12015 Even then, that’s just a part of Toxapex’s playstyle, not its entire kit. Gen 9 Toxapex is still doing well and no longer has Scald, most of its current options are 100% accurate moves so it comes down to the skill of using it
@@N12015 But only because Scald was so freaking good. 30% for anything is too high.
@@09f9 ohko moves hit through protect? also is fissure not a ground type move which many pokemon are immune to?
@@N12015 The real problem is that that didn't really require much in the way of "luck". Sure, sometimes you took 70% from an Earthquake and needed to get a burn in one, and that was annoying, but Pex is so bulky that you usually get plenty of free chances to click Scald. The more chances you get to hit Scald, the closer the odds of getting a burn get to 100%.
That recycle Slowbro people used in Ubers back in the day is a solid example of a strat that isn't GOOD per say but is extremely toxic to play against
Aah, the "Funbro" set... That Slowbro set is the reason why on pretty much all Showdown formats there's an endless battle clause. The combination of Recycle + Leppa Berry, is just not allowed, and too toxic.
@@ScaredEz Well, that and the 1300 match.
With a funbro, the fun never ends.
atleast its funny. spdef pivot lando on the other hand...
@@N12015 Showdown actually has a built in clause, in which if it detects that you're trying to use FunBro, or a similar strategy, it automatically gives you a L. It's effectively the only thing that is banned in Anything Goes formats.
I'm kinda shocked that in this entire video, the existence of Dondozo wasn't mentioned once. Dondozo is *the* reason to run fissure because the mon is comically unbreakable otherwise with its titanic, double omniboosted bulk and unaware. Without fissure, Dondozo can kinda just ignore Ting-Lu because nothing Ting does is a serious threat to it. With the threat of Fissure, Dozo *has* to respect the threat Ting-Lu represents because otherwise there's a good chance Dozo just dies.
You know, when I first watched Moxie Boosted talk about the strat and doing the math I sort of concluded: “There’s no skill in luck, but it takes skill to know when to use luck.”
And then Ting Lu Fissure meta developed and it’s like “okay, now that everyone is doing it the cleverness is gone.”
Like, there are many smart tactical reasons why Fissure is viable and I respected that because, like, it’s still an inaccurate move and you’re still taking a huge risk bringing it in the first place.
But when it’s become the price of entry for anyone who hasn’t come up with an anti-meta strat it’s not really that smart anymore, is it? I really thought it was just going to be a niche thing, not the actual optimal way Ting Lu is run.
Man, I remember when giving Dondozo an OHKO move was considered a good idea in the case of a Dozo mirror match.
I haven’t had a chance to pay attention to pre-Gen 8 competitive metas but… has OHKO moves only just recently started to be considered viable meta picks or have there been past metas where they were in serious conversation to have use?
Is because there's no more megas, Z-moves or brokenmax. The meta is relatively slow.
@@N12015 it's not just that. like, OHKO moves aren't meta in Gen 2 OU despite Gen 2 having a really slow metagame (and OHKO moves existing in Gen 2). So seeing it be meta in any metagame is quite odd.
@@snolls105 I mean, you just... Aren't allowed to use OHKO moves in gen 2 OU. No tier on smogon outside AG has ever let you use OHKO moves, as far as I know.
@@snolls105 People would absolutely use OHKO moves against curselax if they were legal
@@lydia9822 Because they care about competitive integrity and they are banned that asap. Also gen 1 is almost as slow as gen 2 and still doesn't allow OHKO moves.
I always wondered when it will happen that certain strategies will become so centralizing or uncompetitive in VGC that banning things would be the only solution to saving the meta. Up until now Gamefreak were not that great at balancing things but the meta was never downright horrible.
Prankster thunder Wave swagger thundurus was never banned, i doubt that wil happen
@@RockHoward256 Yeah GF did make changes to prankser and confusion the next few gens but the fix was super late.
@@RockHoward256 they nerfed it into the ground tho- thunder wave and swagger got accuracy nerfs, confusion and thunder wave triggered less (thunder wave's speed reduction was also changed from 1/4 to 1/2), and prankster was nerfed to not effect dark types
literally completely nerfed to the point where swagger is not worth running
@@gephicka good
@@AshenDust_ No, it's cringe. Mirror Herb + Swagger finally gives Honchkrow a way to use an ersatz Swords Dance, but it doesn't work 15% of the time. A cool little tech like SwagHerb just doesn't work because of Game Freak's terrible balance.
So I see from the video description that you got a new editor. Congratulations! It turned great! I hope that this jump in quality brings you even more succes in this platform cause you deserve it man.
I've always wondered why they've never done competitive Pokemon like Stadium, where you have the option to implement Sleep and Freeze Clause (yes, this is where Smogon got the idea). Bring those clauses back as options for PvP, put an OHKO move or Evasion clause there too, everyone is happier
Tbf they removed evasion from moody and chansey the only evasion abuser lost minimize so its not really much of a problem at this point
Would be kinda a cringe idea
As a strategy against friends or even playing through the main story it would definitely be fun. As a competitive strategy I wouldn't want to go up against it more than once or twice. I feel that it's just one of those sets where it's gimmicky and works, but over time will be over shadowed by better more consistent sets. I'd say give it time, but if it goes on for too long then have a vote.
What makes this interesting is that no one can vote; VGC is entirely up to TPC and how they handle it. While I agree that Ruination is much better than Fissure, it would be interesting to see if Fissure survives in the format or if it falls out of favor
Luck reliant strategies aren't fun in a casual playthrough because there is no one to laugh with/at.
I was playing Pokémon Xenoverse with only Fighting type Pokémon and the first gym has a Ghost type ace, which meant I could only use Infestation fired from a 50 all across the board Base Stat Pokémon called Masgot, so I was forced to Sans Attack it. Next, came Sharpedo X, also a Ghost type. I had to do the same thing. Next came the fighting gym. A break, right? Wrong, he has a Hawlucha, and I only had a Bug/Fighting type and a Normal/Fighting type. I had to Sand Attack his lead Passimian and Bulk Up to survive a Wing Attack from Hawlucha (hoping for no crit) and retaliate with a (hopefully) crit Horn Attack. If I didnt get a Crit, the fight was over because Kungfur couldnt 1v1 the Pyukumuku X. Next up, a neutral Bug/Ice Galvantula, pretty easy. And then comes the FAIRY TYPE GYM. My startegy involves getting Lucky with the foe's moves. I Struggle Bug the Mimikyu, let Masgot die, switch to Punchbug to lower its speed with Rock Tomb and hope I don't miss and that I get some damage to (once again, hopefully) take a Super Potion from the leader. I let it die and Heracross should be able to clean up both Mimikyu and Smeargle X. Then comes Slurpuff and I try to get some damage with Rock Tomb, let it die and switch to Kungfur for a Fake Out, switch to Buneary (Mega Lopunny isn't even in the game, but I just had to get a 5th encounter) to tank a Dazzling Gleam, use a Quick Attack for damage and hope it ISN'T a Crit as to not activate Unburden and then let Buneary die so Kungfur gets in for another Fake Out chip and hope for a Dazzling Gleam low roll and an Acrobatics crit.
Tl;dr Luck reliant strategies are only fun when there is someone to laugh with because if you are alone then it is just misserable back and forth
Edit: Sans Attack lol
@@JJSSBU So then, uh... why did you do that? Because you're right; it sounds stupidly boring and miserable.
@@Latias38 And TPC has never made any mid-gen balance changes before beyond just trying different formats which have only ever changed pokemon that are or are not allowed
@@Emma-rw8yo Crit got nerfed mid gen... Don't know why but it got nerfed to 1/24 from 1/16 in Ultra sun/moon.
It's really quite sad. Bulky teams have historically been pretty garbage in vgc, due to you having to weather an assault from two mons at the same time, much shorter games, and moves like protect and follow me that turn a frail Mon into something with good survivability. But now that we have an excellent bulky Mon that can really act as a defensive backbone, it has a controversial, uncompetitive, and unfortunately viable set that makes everyone hate it. I just want bulky teams to be good in doubles!
Edit: apparently people think I mean stall when I say bulky, that is not the case. I'm looking at teams that have many mons that can take a hit, with the goal not being to outlast the opponent, but to chip away until you can get a sweep going for a frailer teammate. Or alternatively, something that can safely throw out lots of attacks without having to worry about being breathed on, which is what ting lu falls into. I think that far too many vgc games already practically come down to a coin flip, where if you either have the right lead or make a good predict turn one you basically have won the game. Bulky teams create a foil to this, where mistakes on both sides can more easily be clawed back. Games don't have to last 50 turns, they shouldn't, but you can have a dynamic and interesting game that lasts for double digit turns.
Notice: The fun police will confiscating this take within 24 hours
I think it all comes down to how the damage formula and type interactions can just run through bulk way too easily
Bro trying to bring Stall in VGC 💀
@@senny- That's Freezai's job with Glimmora, not ours.
@@senny- not even stall necessarily, more just doing a lot of positioning while chipping away and spreading status so that a specific Mon can go ham. The end goal is not to outlast but to wear down specific checks to open up a sweeper. Which is why I love bulky mons, they can take all the hits the opponent throws at me to keep the frail mons safe.
I like the fissure stomping tantrum combo in concept I like it creatively but in practice it’s frustrating
"The only counterplay is"
My man forgot the Sturdy ability RIP
And are there any Rock types that have Sturdy that aren’t Garganacl, who would rather use Purifying Salt, that are usable in VGC? As in not just a useless Pokémon or an inferior version of some other Pokémon? Garganacl is a good Pokemon that happens to be a Rock type simply because they were creative with salt theming.
That guy at 2:49 hit 2 fissures and still lost. Truly player diff.
un-world champ difference babeeeeee
Landorus Therian must be laughing seeing the new broken ground type legendary remembering the good times when he broke vgc.
Stuff like this makes vgc exciting to me I mainly play singles and we don't get to use cheese strats and we have a lot of things banned that don't need to be. so to see this goofy set thriving brings a lot of joy
The only formats that have bans are Smogon formats, any cart. formats only have the box legends ban.
you clearly don't play competitively if cheese strats give you joy
@@NickoStall2 👌 idrc what you think but I'll explain, when cheese strats end up competitively successful its fun. Regardless of how viable it is its fun to watch, its very similar to when pachirisu won worlds it was a great moment
@@NickoStall2 considering Smogon is glorified playground rules for part of the US fandom, where as VGC is the official competitive for the entire world, gatekeeping doesn’t really work when you’re outside the gated community. This is why people hate Smogon, Trying to act elitist and imposing your minority voice on the entire fandom, insulting or condescending to anyone who disagrees.
@@devonstrom6558 sejun's pachirisu isn't cheering though, it's a skillful teambuilding that fulfill it roles perfectly, pachirisu is the second bulkiest redirector in the format after amoonguss btw. The same can't be said to evasions or ohko moves in singles, where it's pure cheese. Honestly I didnt hate wacky stuff, I used mean look trapping wo chien just when it dropped to uu for the lolz. But sometime when game management skills got thrown out of the window maybe it's a little bit too far.
Ruination doesn’t take 50% of the kill though. The move has diminishing returns as it does 50% of the Pokemon current hp, not max hp. Not to mention it has 90% accuracy, so it’s 45% of the kill at best.
And Ting Lu is a worse ruination user than Wo-Chien because you are almost never slower than a 45 speed uninvested Moose. Those kind of moves are better on fast mons.
I definitely find Ting-Lu to be much less of a problem in singles, tbh.
That’s because fissure is banned in singles but not in VGC
@Jonathan Bernardino fissure would also probably be worse in singles if it wasn't banned
Singles is a longer format for a reason. It's far easier to reposition with less of an opportunity cost.
Or for a simple example, in singles I can switch a Corvinight into a Ting-lu all day, it can't beat that especially not with Fissure. In VGC though the Ting-lu can attack the other Mon just as easily, or it's partner can attack the switch in, switching in a counter doesn't work the same way in a doubles format.
@@Charlie28330fissure is worse in singles because you don't have a teammate to pressure while you try for an ohko. Missing a fissure means a 100% free turn for the opponent. Also, corviknight, dragonite, rotom, and orthworm are everywhere and swap in for free and threaten body press, dragon dance, hydro pump/wisp, or shed tailing out to a setup sweeper.
Imagine this in OU:
You pivot in your specs dragapult and click draco meteor
The opponent switches in to Ting Lu, which takes 30% max and then heals with leftovers.
You withdraw your dragapult and switch in your loaded dice Breloom to threaten the Ting Lu. The opposing Ting Lu used fissure, hits it, and suddenly your entire team is walled by Ting Lu because a 30% chance to land fissure eliminated your Ting Lu check.
People keep saying Ting Lu isn't bad in singles. Yeah. Yeah. No fissure. That's literally it
I don’t understand why people didn’t flip over Scald. Scald was also a 30% chance to, a lot of the time, decide the game. A Gastrodon fishing for a burn would VERY OFTEN decide a game.
A burned physical attacker is not just effectively useless, it is dead weight. In VGC you can intentionally avoid KO’ing a burned physical Pokémon so they have to take a turn to switch it out. Burning a Pokémon with a 30% chance could literally be worse than instantly KO’ing the Pokémon.
Two things:
1) gastrodon is not nearly as bulky as ting lu and can get worn down much easier
2) your statement about burned pokemon is correct but its much easier to play around scald and a possible burn than an ohko move
@@alexs5368 3) People also despised scald, and was soft removed in gen 9 because it was kinda overcentralizing.
People did flip over Scald - there was often a dedicated contingent of players who wanted to ban it, & outside of them were a lot of people who hated it but didn't go that far.
Scald is basically the most brain-free move to use, there are way too many "idk ill just Scald, don't have to think, will still get rewarded" moments with it.
@@hppern3971 And it didn't help that Toxapex exists, which is basically like current Ting Lu but for singles.
@@N12015 Toxapex doesn't change how bad Scald is in any unique way. There's a reason it got a suspect test in Gen 6 UU, with no Toxapex in sight. It's awful on all bulky waters, & even offensive waters.
Toxapex does have regen, which means it can try to spam it more often, but the same is true of the SlowTwins.
I saw a ting lu hit a fissure on a bright powder sand veil chomp for the win. That was heartbreaking
I thought OHKO moves were unaffected by accuracy and always a 30% (at the same level)
Bright Powder and Sand Veil don’t affect Fissure’s accuracy.
In fact, accuracy and evasion boosts/drops don’t either.
It’s always a flat 30% chance.
The only way to adjust OHKO move accuracy is by adjusting levels; the OHKO moves become 1% more accurate for each level the user has over its target (example: a level 100 Kyogre has 31% accurate Sheer Cold vs level 99 Groudon). Unfortunately, this does mean OHKO moves will pretty much always have 30% accuracy minimum since the user will always be max leveled.
Oh wow thank y’all I didn’t know about this 😁
@@spacerace1448 np :)
Love the new editing style. Tazprods effort is noticed and appreciated!
I don’t remember a time when OHKO moves were this good in any competitive format. Don’t forget that Dondozo and Garganacl can learn fissure as well.
Great video! I honestly hate fissure. Ting Lu is incredibly hard to remove and it can click fissure all day. Besides the 30% accuracy seems much higher because that thing connects so many times. GF shouldn't have given fissure to Ting Lu
On the other hand, if we want to prevent having to ban too many things in VGC, OHKO moves will have to be nerfed. I think the best solution would have to be preventing consecutive use. Basically, give it the same property as Gigaton Hammer. Protect and Detect are already common moves on VGC teams, so that is probably the best solution.
How about of it misses you can keep using it, and it gets slightly more accurate after every miss, but once it hits you can't use it the rest of the match.
@@cortster12 that will honestly make the move garbage
@@muk_is_superior Good, that's the point
People winning with fissure be like : *you don't get to decide what is fun to me.*
An important aspect of any competitive game is both you and your opponent should get hyped when either of your do something impressive. It might suck losing to someones perish trap team but it's still fun seeing them pull it off. And it's not fun to play a game about taking careful calculated risks against someone who's just flipping coins. It's like playing Yugioh in an Exodia viable meta
When has there been a format where exodia has been viable?
@@Gich101 20 years ago and the unrestricted formats. Exodia is limited to this day for a reason.
@@N12015 Exodia being limited is a non-issue. The real lasting effect is card draw is very very neutered. Pot of greed for instance never leaving banlist, Draw 1 with downside is limited
huge thanks for including captions in this video, really appreciated it, helped me follow along a lot better
Sure ruination means I can base a plan around it, but with open team sheet my opponent can also plan around it. If I don't know what I'm doing, neither will anyone else
0:50 agency agency 💯💯
I actually really like OHKO moves being legal, I think as a niche option, they are quite interesting. It takes a significant amount of skill to recognize when it is correct to click them, and when it's not (it generally isn't). Sometimes you get a free turn and you win the game if it hits, and don't lose anything if it misses, sometimes you are in a position where you would lose 100% or near 100% of the the time if you click anything else. It creates a lot of tension and high moments like double protects. I, however, am significantly less happy with it being a meta option on the most common pokemon in the format. Doubles is generally such a fast paced format that these moves exist in a very niche spot, and mindlessly clicking them will lose you the match more times than not. This, is not that format, it might be *sub optimal* to click it currently, but mindlessly clicking them isn't punishing enough, which is why it's meta, and a problem.
Halfway through the video and I noticed you had edited in subtitles. Thats awesome! Thank you for that
Good video. Your scripts have great pacing. Not a fan of the embedded subtitles though… I would rather they be toggleable.
yooo big fan
I'll be curious to see if GameFreak nerfs OHKO moves next generation if Fissure spam continues to dominate Gen 9 over the next few years. Usually anytime there's been a polarizing strategy in past VGC formats (like Mega Kanga, Prankster, Dark Void Smeargle, Perma weather, Mimikyu, etc.) they usually do something about it eventually. Especially when something like Fissure spam just looks really unfun from a spectator POV and might deter people from wanting to try out VGC. Ting-Lu and the other ruinous Pokémon are really sick, so I hope they don't all get nerfed or something in the future just because one of them had access to an OHKO move lol.
tbh, I'm okay with fissure, especially with Dondozo stall being a prominent strat in the meta. It only has 30% accuracy for a reason, so it's relatively easy to punish if it misses multiple times
Considering the amount of RNG within a usual competitive game? such as making risky plays, taking chances to K.O or not, or possibly get a chance to status something off of a move like Scald or Poison Jab, the chances to miss certain other moves (such as Fire Blast, Thunder w/out Rain, Hurricane, ect), or moves like Waterfall and Rockslide with their chances to flinch, and a OHKO move is what seems to break the competitive Camels back?
Honestly let it exist, I find it hilarious just because Im watching people loose their minds over these sorts of moves, I am here to not only ignite a fire, but pour gasoline on it and put it in the middle of a forest surrounded by dry trees. I want to see people try things like Guillotine Kingambit and Sheer Cold Glalie or Abomasnow, for no other reason other then to watch this debate spiral out of control and into a raging forest fire.
Also Great content once again!
I do find it very interesting that a move that has existed for a very long time is now being discussed. I like the conversation it brings.
I think that Fissure Ting-Lu will decrease with the return of good flying types. It is rough to fight against it, but not unbearable like Dark Void Smeargle in X/Y VGC.
after losing 2 matches in a row due to fissure landing, I complained about it in the vgc subreddit, and people were genuinely defending it: they even said it took skill to use it and ‘skill issue’
Same when I asked if they could do a non OHKO tournament in those best of 1. Gamers not knowing about game design once more.
“Removes agency” was all I needed to hear, you NEVER REMIVE THE AGENCY
Good analysis! The comparison to hypnosis on Goth was illuminating. Love this kind of content
Reminder that Sturdy also blocks ohko moves, which was its *original* effect before the focus sash effect was added.
Any viable sturdy mons that dont have Purifying Salt as their second ability?
Honestly the only reason I think it's banworthy is that if it gets too popular it might as well be gone because you'll never get the surprise pop of an OHKO hitting out of the blue from a totally unexpected source again, and we need those moments.
Anyone who wants to see a funny Fissure™ game, look up VGC 2023 Fort Wayne Regionals Luka vs. Fiona. Was hinted at in this video btw.
Loving the editing style on this video already, and not even a minute in! Good stuff!
You know a Pokemon is good when its ability sounds like a Yugioh Card Effect.
Something you said at the end resonates with me. “It’s fun to click Fissure”. This is so true. The dopamine rush of hitting Fissure is like nothing else in mons.
Makes sense that Wolfe would hate Timg-lu. He hated Sleep powder Venusaur as well.
Man I remeber when u had like 5k subs what your videos where like and now I'm looking at what your making now especially this video you've really come a long way bro keep it up man we all want u to succeed
When he was still serene grace
The idea that OHKO moves are considered anti-competitive until a few well-respected trainers start running it on a new Pokemon is, quite frankly, silly. OHKO moves are no more anti-competitive than a probabilistic secondary effect on an attack move. Or critical hits. Anyone that goes into a match mindlessly clicking Fissure is going lose more than they win.
Besides, there are plenty of counters against against OHKO moves: Flying/Ice/Ghost types, Tera Flying/Ice/Ghost types, Sturdy ability, Substitute, Focus Sash items, PP depleting moves, Pressure ability, tactful Protects, etc.
Not sure how many more counters people need before they acknowledge it's balanced. OHKO moves are a big part of how I play. It took a lot of time for me to build Pokemon with the right defensive EVs to make it work. But the reason I choose to play this way is because it's nearly impossible to break through common VGC teams without copying what everyone else is doing. Sure I can change a few EVs around and swap a Pokemon around and feel like it's "my" team. But to me, it's more interesting to build a team from complete 100% scratch and see how bad it breaks everything. Lol. Wins feel much more earned that way.
People can have whatever opinions they want on OHKO moves. Until you've spent hours crafting a strategy and manually optimizing EVs to make it work, I wouldn't expect anyone to understand how it's strategic.
when freezai said "agency" i felt that🙏 truly hit me deep in my soul😢 god i love the agency❤
The player who you had talking at the end was mostly correct, but he said that "if you're losing to fissure, you're actually just losing to Ting Lu" and I disagree. If you're winning by using fissure, you're winning because of Ting Lu, but anyone can be on the unlucky side of the game and get screwed by fissure in a game they otherwise would have been able to win. Like what you said, it's an uncompetitive strategy because it doesn't take much skill to get lucky and the only counterplay to it relies on essentially guaranteeing you lose to every other strategy.
Many many years ago the 20th trainer in Battle Factory in Pokémon Emerald had a Dewgong who first used Horn Drill on my Ludicolo and then survived a Sky Uppercut from my Breloom and OHKOed my Breloom with Sheer Cold. So I’m on Wolfy’s side this time
The battle tower uses hax to win
I like the subtitles
Freezai, your videos have become very high quality and very comprehensive. I appreciate the work you've been putting in.
Would be fun to have special attacking water ruination pokemon with Brine and Ruination combo.
But back on topic: You can also use Levitate and Sturdy pokemon to be completly immune to Fissure or Air Balloon/Focus Sash for that extra turn to beat it down.
Alternatively use defensive pokemon who are WEAK to ground moves (yes you read it right). This might make enemy choose to click guaranteed supereffective move twice on you (stomping tantrum) instead of straight up clicking OHKO move and risk missing. Why it's good - because you can play around it with protect, healing up with berries, using berries that decrease dmg from supereffective ground moves or actually using weakness policy and hit back hard as punishment.
Alternatively use pokemon that knows Disable and Protect or Substitute to scout for the move.
Corviknight with Pressure ability might also give it some pain especially if you pair it with some mon that knows Encore or Spite. But of course i would suggest KO'ing it asap instead of toying with it.
Well... actually, g-max lapras runs sheer cold because it can't do damage to opposing water types any other way
Wolfe also likes to uses sub-gimmick Pokémon ... soooo get Fissured
4:55 also this is a very cool tactic + i think Stomping would still be boosted next turn after double protect
Flying type: and i take it seriously instead if i land
hey man. as someone who uses them frequently when watching tv/movies, love the addition of captions. Appreciated!
Fissure on Ting-Lu (and Ting-Lu as a Pokemon in general) is a part of a longer string of shit balancing decisions made worse by what appears to be a lack of playtesting, and in a game that's ceased being the largely-single-player game many of us grew up with. Look at this list:
- MRayquaza (can Mega and hold an Item): 6 years
- Protean pre-SV: 9 years
- Zacian: 3 years
- DV Smeargle: 10 years
- Will-o-Wisp feat. 75% Acc: 7 years
- etc.
In these examples, the years listed are how long they existed before being nerfed or buffed. Keep in mind, I'm not only talking about the health of VGC, but singles as well. In every one of those cases except Ray (who faded out with Gen. 7), it took a lot of collective complaining, or one major occurrence with a player on the big stage (WoW in particular), for GF to finally balance this stuff. *It shouldn't take things like that to see healthy change.* Look, personal take, but after making my own homebrew for TTRPGs, and having to learn how to balance, it's always safest to start underpowered instead of overpowered because in the time it takes you to develop a patch, fewer things are negatively impacted; either people don't use it, or it was used to little effect in the grand scheme. Seeing as how GF has a habit of rushing and/or not playtesting things as much as they should, I wish they'd take that approach.
We aren't playing your grandad's single-player game anymore. This is one of the few competitive games that I know of that doesn't implement mid-season patches. That needs to change at the rate GF goes.
As much as I hate banning stuff, if something had to be banned, it should be Ting-Lu. Banning OHKO moves while allowing a wall like Ting-Lu to run rampant, will make VGC degenerate into a stall meta. General spectator interest in competitive Pokemon is already declining in the U.S. A stall meta taking over VGC will ruin spectator interest beyond repair.
Someone tell this to smogon.
@@N12015 Smogon Loves Stall
@@metawolf987 No they don't... Yet the format oftentimes degenerates into PP stalling, EVEN ON BALANCE.
Whether it's good or not, it definitely feels bad to have fissure hit you. That's my main problem with it. It's just not fun
You're right, it's hilarious
It's ironic because Ting-Lu's bowl(?) actually looks like a fissure
about Tera flying.. * cough * gravity sandy shocks
Idk. It sounds like a strange move found a niche combo it works well in. I’d say that’s healthy game play. People just feel bad because the 30% accurate move “shouldn’t hit”.
The problem to me is that fissure is good on Ting Lu. You have a chance to OHKO or you at least double your next move. Thats so much pressure in the field its kinda ridiculous.
I like this, I’m not a Fissure user, but I don’t mind it. I like how it broke the meta, but now it’s become it. Skill does need to be present, and learn as we go, but not everything has to be a flat chess game.
*Gen 1 Ice Beam shaking in the corner*
It's the same principle as why Gen 1 players unironically use ice beam freeze and crits as a counter to certain meta threats, or why most Gen 2 mons prefer thunder over tbolt, or why sing is unironically a staple in gen 1. When you have bulky pokemon that get many free turns, positioning yourself to pull the slot machine more than your opponent genuinely becomes a skillful strategy, albeit a decidedly silly one in a competitive game. But I really don't mind these things existing since, though the luck reliant strategies are highly splashable in these bulky metas, more consistent options for the same roles do exist
I mean we are forgetting that lando t is making a return while also a annoying mon can still effectively answer this whole escapade around fissure
To anyone saying Sturdy is a counter:
Okay so, naturally your opponent is never going to Fissure into a Pokemon that runs Sturdy, but let's say you baited out a Fissure and made an awesome predictive switch into your Sturdy mon.
Sturdy mons in Paldea dex: Avalugg, Sudowoodo, Donphan, Forretress, Garganacl, Magnezone.
How do any of these then win you the position off your prediction?
Of these, only Garganacl has a current usage rate above 1% in VGC (at an astounding 3.75%). But Garganacl is 2-3 shot by Ting-Lu's Stomping Tantrum (or 1-2 shot if double damage effect active), which will most likely be before Salt Cure can whittle it down. Also you'd have to pick Sturdy over Purifying Salt, by far its more common ability to help it contend with Flutter Mane and Gholdengo and provides a lot of utility with status immunity.
Also, a stalling battle is not the game plan against a Fissure spamming mon because they'll just target the Sturdy mon's ally (who is more likely to be the offensive threat). Ting-Lu needs to go down ASAP so it has fewer chances to do that.
The others are massive opportunity costs to take on the team and of them, only Avalugg has a shot of beating Ting-Lu quickly. Avalugg does not match up well against current popular mons like Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu, special attacking power houses that can one-shot the iceberg fairly consistently.
meanwhile Flutter Mane is on 90% of all competetive teams...
Laughs in OHKO Clause
The editing in this video is 🔥
Freezai getting all fancy with sound effects and high quality animations
Just got back into the competitive format and my goodness you're editing it was just perfect and I never knew ting lu can tank like those
I really love Ting-Lu's design and Im glad its having its glory day
The subtitles are good! Love to see them in future vids!!!
I know a mon that will counter this, my favorite...
Am gonna try it out to see if it works!
The thumbnail made me think this was a Wolfey wideo
Really interesting video. I didn't realize any competitive formats allowed OHKO moves. Super cool to see the used effectively at high level play. Also, the editing on this video was glorious. I loved the pokemon sounds synced with your graphics
Here’s the math for using all 8 fissures;
Hitting none: ~6%
Hitting one: ~20%
Hitting two: ~30%
Hitting three: ~25%
Hitting four: ~14%
Hitting 5+: ~15%
Now those are some RIDICULOUS odds. Having a 1 in 2.2 chance of hitting three or more fissures in a meta where you can only bring 4 Pokémon is a criminal offense.
"is ting lu ruining competitive pokemon?"
meanwhile palafin, maushold, and miraidon trying to avoid eye contact
Suddenly that Tera Electric Earth Eater Orthworm with 252 HP and Sp. Def (to potentially cover Ting-Lu's partner) + Leftovers + Iron Defense and Bodypress is looking a lot better now, right? I know Fissure on Ting-Lu looks bad, but this is just because pretty much no one is used to battle against it, but it is not inherently that broken as some people seem to make it out to be. Aside from what I just mentioned in Orthworm, there are some other ways you can beat Ting-Lu using Fissure and the ones I can think of of the top of my head are: Gengar/Iron Valiant/Houndstone in the sand spamming Destiny Bond and Protect every other turn to cheese them back on the 1 hit KO Fissure (that can potentially be picked up even if Ting-Lu's teammate knock outs either of these); you can lead with one Pokemon with Disable and other with Encore, then double Protect to see what move Ting-Lu chooses first and Disable or Encore depending on which move Ting-Lu used; and there's also Cryogonal, an Ice type with Levitate, so immune to Ting-Lu's Fissure and Stomping Tantrum, that can use Acid Armor + Recover to cover for its pretty low physical Def against potential Heavy Slam/Body Press and has a 1 hit KO of its own in Sheer Cold to make Ting-Lu taste a bit of its own medicine.
Sturdy garganacl: I HAVE NO SUCH WEAKNESS
imagine playing chess but 30% each turn, your opponent can make a move that has a chance to teleport their queen and capture your king, thats fissure. fissure is not good for competitive games, i dont want it removed from the games, just from competitive play
I'd argue at it's core pokemon isn't a competitive game. It's just a game that some happen to play competitively. The reality is that the actual vgc and smogon side of the community is incredibly small compared to the casual side it's really not even close. I'm also seeing a good chunk of people who play smogon now who don't play the vanilla games at all. We kinda have to ask ourselves at what point will these games/groups start to diverge. It seems to me like the only real solution is a separate either fanmade or official game for battling. We just got our first pokemon game without online battles and it solid bonkers. I'm pretty sure they would be willing to do it again lol
@@Nerevarine420 yeah, Pokémon aren’t competitive games at their core, but people play them competitively… which is why I said they should be removed just from competitive play, because they’re inherently not competitive. If you want to use them in the campaign, go right ahead. If you want to use them against your friends online or locally, go right ahead. If you want to use it on ladder or in a tournament, you shouldn’t be able to. It’s just not competitive to play against. I also think they should remove damage rolls and make things always do a set amount based on power, attack and defense stats. I hate it when there’s a 73% chance I kill and I don’t because I got unlucky and got a bad roll. But that’s way less realistic then the Pokémon company banning OHKO moves from their tournaments
@@jenkohr Pokémon has never banned a move unless it had a gamebreaking bug ((sky drop)). You could argue dark void was pseudo banned maybe but that was it.
@@jenkohr I'm saying they shouldn't at all because putting the competitive community over the casual has ruined many other games experiences and there's no way you could feasibly do that without changing the current make up of the games.
Your saying pokemon should change the fundamental way a game works for the competitive side
I'ma disagree and say they should just make a separate game in general to avoid this problem.
The base game shouldn't be neutered for a small section of the community. Pokemon needs to make a second game for competitive and just add on to it over the years.
Then the rest of the time should be focused on the actual game that drives the franchise. Things have come too far tbh there's no real synchronization between the current meta everyone plays smogon and the way its actually played on cartridge.
Is it possible that some teams might run spite to make it so your opponent has much fewer fissure uses? I'm guessing it's not worth taking up a move slot for it
Feel like disable would just be the better option
Thats the key here. All the countermeasures for it are kinda… not worth it because it actually hurts your team if you aren’t facing a Fissure Ting Lu. Forcing tera flying is often unoptimal, substitute is easily broken in doubles, disable and spite suck… even Sturdy doesn’t really do much as most Sturdy pokemon are either weak to ground or aren’t good in VGC…
If Ting-Lu learned Imprison we would have potential for the funniest VGC set of all time
The ruin snail already started running it.
I like the captions, theyre very useful
Feels a bit weird not to mention Dondozo in this video right?
When Dondozo start running Tera Flying because the strategy is that broken
@@iantaakalla8180 When people started running fissure Ting-Lu because Dondozo is that broken
Hey, I love the inclusion of subtitles! Unfortunately when baked into the video, they break the built in subtitles system that UA-cam uses. People who need subtitles often have custom transparency and colour settings and having another set of subtitles can at the very least be distracting and at the worst make the tools that people use to view subtitles unusable.
Your implementation here isn’t too intrusive, and I understand that it can be useful to stop people just reuploading your background gameplay for their own videos, but it’s something I thought I should mention!
Just turn off the built in subtitles when watching videos with them, what an absolute non-issue.
@@diearschmeister I personally don't use subtitles at all, but for someone who is legally blind and unable to read that text then "just turn off the subtitles" isn't a solution unfortunately :(
Also Donbozo and Garganaci get Fissue, Kinggambit gets Guillotine.
Chien-Pao gets Sheer Cold, just in case vs Donbozo lol.
That's pretty much why I don't play 3v3 anymore this gen.
I wonder if the dex expansion will push fissure out
My fissures always high roll. Always OHKOs for me when it hits.
I think regardless of the stochastics behind whether or not fissure is a "good move", some players will still use it as a win condition in sticky situations. Ting Lu is very bulky especially with its ability and an assault vest and landing two fissures, the situation can become dire for your opponent. To think that an ice beam freeze win condition, a win condition players often play out for, is a little more likely than two consecutive fissure hits tells me that some may see it as a reasonable gamble for dire situations especially when the first fissure goes into the Ting Lu counter.
Ruination might be more consistent overall, but ruination will not win the 1v4s that Ting Lu finds very easily. I would also think ruination has less value on Ting Lu because it's really slow, so it loses value on pokemon that have already been hit.
I think if worlds uses regulation C, fissure Ting Lu will be rare. Present, but rare, because you would have to be a madman to gamble your worlds run on hitting fissures, but those madmen almost certainly exist and I might be underestimating the number of madmen that make it to worlds.
I guess the only thing people that (understandably) hate fissure Ting Lu can do is to pray it's a meta fad that will die before the next major tournament. People might look into things like levitate, magnet rise, evasion boosting, etc to counter fissure and hopefully that dissuades most usage instead of just influencing usage of gravity, lock on, smack down, etc. People will eventually understand that fissure will not win championships (unless you're dream)
The only reason that fissure is viable is that with stomping tantrum being your best STAB option there is literally zero downside. Using fissure then using stomping tantrum does exactly the same amount of damage as using stomping tantrum twice assuming you miss the fissure. It is literally a 30% chance to OHKO with no real major downside. If Ting Lu had access to high horsepower I don’t think it would be running fissure, because the 30 extra power on each hit would likely be better than the 30% chance.
Happy birthday Freezai!