the problem with the "best" sandpaper (& how to fix it cheap)
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- Опубліковано 17 лис 2022
- Most rave about the 3M Xtract sandpaper, but I've had a problem with it and was frustrated. It took me a while to find this information and the fix, so here you go! So if you want to really love this sandpaper, this is the video for you.
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I am also an affiliate of Taylor Toolworks.
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
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If you're having trouble getting the Xtract to stick, this is what you need: Festool 150 (6") Padsaver: amzn.to/3EGSaWH
Festool 125 (5") Padsaver: amzn.to/3EHZl0S, 3m HookIt: lddy.no/1dc4t
Always use protection
@@rednecktech9485 I knew someone would go for it. I tee'd it up for you. that's actually a great thumbnail or title!
Commented on my experience directly with this protection pad…any help would be appreciated!
This video almost makes me want to cry. My wife got me the ETS125 as a present last April and we went thru 2 sanders and she felt so bad and I felt so bad telling her the fancy ass awesome sander she got me isn't even holding sandpaper when my crap Ridgid has no problem. This has been an ongoing issue with Festool and Amazon forever. It's been sitting in its fancy case in the corner of my garage for four months. I CAN'T WAIT for this pad to get here. I can't properly describe the amount of time and energy we both have put into this stupid stupid problem and it's amazing to hear my exact words said back to me in this video as far as "OMFG if you're not going to include it at least TELL me this is an issue!" net paper is extremely popular so this should be a very common problem. Thank you so much for this video!!!
The ets 125 comes with a normal piece of granat sandpaper. I understand you wanted to use net paper but did you not think to put on the piece they included to make sure there wasn't a problem with the sander pad or do you only use net paper? Did you let it sit there for 4 months just because it couldn't use net paper? I have so many questions. Did your sander not come with the one very generous sheet of 120 paper festool bestows on there 249 dollar sander kit? What the hell happened for you to not figure this out?
Am I the only person in the world that enjoys sanding? Sanding and applying finishes are truly the most enjoyable part of most projects for me. Not only makes a huge difference in final result, but it's also almost impossible to screw up.
Probably very few of you yeah. I switched to hand planes and card scrapers just because I hate sanding so much
definitely not. i find it therapeutic, same with hand planing a large piece of wood. i put on some music or an audiobook and take my time.
I like it a lot too but sometimes it can drag on tbh. But I always feel good afterwards (except my neck from looking down all day)
It takes a long time to go through all the grits. It requires a respirator or you’re compromising your health. It’s loud. It requires no skill. It’s not satisfying to go from not sanded to sanded. So yeah the community is pretty vocal about it and it seems like you’re definitely in the minority.
Finishing, on the other hand, is enjoyable. At least the first coat, when the wood goes from raw to what it will look like finished. Multiple coats doesn’t really change anything so that’s not as rewarding.
I find it therapeutic too, and I like how fine sanded wood feels so smooth and looks amazing : )
I love that you employed a freelance artist. Spreading your good fortune supports our gig economy.
The gummy bear gig economy is under rated!
I really enjoy the way your channel focuses on solutions to real world woodworking issues. You have saved me a lot of time and money.
I purchased a used one as the piece is a bit pricey, but the machine ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxG6fbm3cHBd7CNTjk5D-dwYe9c9tCB9ZN has surpassed my expectations. We sand small parts by hand often, sized around 1"x1/2," and specifically look for a piece that's designed to be vertical. The motor has plenty of torque and great speed settings. The only inconvenience I had is that the disk measures 5" where we trim 6" stick-and-sand disks down easily by mounting it then cutting with a box cutter.
Thank god for this video! I bought 4 boxes of 50 packs in different grits on the recommendation of everyone on UA-cam. Today I was sanding my first project and within 20 minutes I was back to my old paper frustrated.
THANK YOU for making this video. I can’t believe nobody is talking about these flying off of sanders more on UA-cam. Talking about common sense issues like this has just earned you another follower, my friend!
Aw shucks! Thank you! I’m surprised too. Had to make it. Have you had that experience? Which sander do you have?
@@wittworks Yeah I have experienced it with my bosch sander. At first I just noticed that it wasn’t a very secure connection, but it woudn’t fly off. But after just a couple of discs, they all started shooting across my garage after a couple seconds of sanding. Great info about how the hooks stick through the mesh. I had never thought about that, but it makes so much sense.
This vid turned the light on and helped me understand why my discs were not "sticking" to my sander! I wore the hooks out using net discs. Thanks so much!
I literally ordered this mid way through your video! Thank you! I didn't give up on 3M's extract but it was frustrating when it would come off or partially shift off. Someone said recently in one of their videos that the extract sandpaper was one of the best advances recently in woodworking and I wanted to agree and if this works as well as it looks like it will, then I whole heartedly agree.
3m's abrasive tech is what is advanced, but the hook and loop tech is the issue. I hear that mirka doesnt have the issue because they've always used net disc. Mirka patent expired, 3M entered the net market, but everyone else has hook and loop backing...now I understand. Glad this helped!
So glad to have found this. The net discs were slipping off my festool as I was sanding . It caused all these marks … not the usual squiggles that I sometimes get but like a slight 1/3 moon. No matter what I did I kept getting them and this was a recent issue as I just started using these discs last month. Now I know why I kept getting those marks! I’ll be ordering these today!
Hi, good vid. I agree that mesh abrasives don't do backing pads any favours generally, but just FYI with Festool this is exaggerated as they make their own hook & loop (it's not regular velcro) which is supposedly better, and also - shocker - happens to make Festool sanders incompatible with other abrasives. It's been a known issue for a while - I did a video way back (~2018?) about the need for an 'interface pad' when using Abranet ('the Mirka Abranet Test, video 157, and follow-up video 159 'cos I was sent the wrong interface pad...) back when Abranet was the only mesh abrasive you could buy. The Festool 'protection pads' are definitely better than the Mirka ones, which I felt were too soft and affected the sanding action too much. Nice graphics too btw. 👍 Hope you didn't blow all the gummy bear budget...😉 Cheers from London. Peter
Great info Peter! Thank you for watching. You made my week. I’ve been a big fan of yours for several years. 🤜💥🤛
P.s: I’m gummy bear poor now.
Bro dude thanks so much for the video, I had problem #2, the video helped me so much!
This is great info for me. I use the extract but due to my health, my wife let me empty my 401(lol) on the Festool ct15 and etc125 and the edge guide. This is my first ever Festool purchase and am truly amazed. I never wanted to spend this type of money but it is absolutely worth it even though I got the cheapest sander and cheapest extractor. I’m a 63 year old hobbyist and I’ll never need another extractor. I also just watched your video on your visit to Festool. This was an amazing video. It’s so good to know that their are companies like Festool who treat and care for there employees more than just a number.
One good (cool) thing about Festool vacuums is they all have the same power. The difference is just in dust capacity before emptying
Thank you so much! I have had this problem for the past 2 years and just ordered a new soft pad for my festool 125 ets. Great find!
Great video Drew. This is good information for people to have. I can’t tell you how many times I have been asked this question.
Thank you sir!
Man, first you got the ford voice over guy and now this fancy Pixar animator, mind blown.
The animator was so much more expensive. Required a truck load of gold fish.
This is the most important video for years for me. I have an ETS125 that I returned and got a replacement that did the same thing.
Been using Festool sanders for year and had no idea. Thanks a bunch for info on the protection pad.
Thank You! I always enjoy your content, and really appreciate this info as I'm experiencing the same issues. Keep it up.
You’ve just made my weekend. Thank you!
I should’ve listened a long time ago. I don’t get excited about many things as far as tools and accessories. That being said, after sanding 4 serving trays with one disc, I am blown away. I really think I can sand 2 or three more. It sticks really good to my worn out backing pad for the Bosch Get65-5(Their Version of the Rotex). This truly is a game changer for me. I always bought cheap assortments because they have all the grits. It is totally worth getting the full line of grits. It will last way longer than all those assorted packs
Thank you! Just got most of the grits of Xtrack for my Festool sander and just happened to already have the protection pads so I’m all set!
I'm surprised people are just now finding out about this. I've been using Diablo Sandnet discs for years and each pack comes with a backer pad. I learned this lesson the hard way when the backer pad wore out and I tried using the discs directly on the sander and it melted my hooks/loops. Had to buy a new sanding pad.
Thing is- I found a great deal on Sandnet last year and ended up buying what will probably be a lifetime supply of every grit, so I'm never going to get to try out the new 3M hotness. There's always something better!
Nicely done. Yep. Always a better thing.
Love the sandpaper - hate the hook and loop. Thank you so much for publishing this tip. I agree, there should at least be a notice in the box about these things.
I had no idea net paper wore out the backing pad. I just got into woodworking this Spring and bought boxes of Xtract after seeing Jonathan Katz-Moses' test of it but I never saw any UA-cam mention even the existence of protection pads. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, I'm going to add that to my winter shopping list.
SAME.
thank you for catching the spirit of the video!
Was just about to run out and buy a pack of Xtract paper. Adding a protector pad to the list. Thanks man 👍🏼
Always good stuff. Two videos in one day. Thanks again.
Thank you!
My first experience with the 3M Cubitron was using the version before the Extract. I also found the backing wore out long before the sanding surface. I stumbled across the protection pad while placing an order for more paper at Taylor Toolworks. I came to the conclusion that it would be the cheaper route to go as well. Thanks for the video and for throwing out an issue that has definitely not been talked about.
Thank you. You were ahead of the curve!
Thank you for this video. I have always wanted to use the mesh sanding disks but didn't know how to interface them to my Dewalt RO sander. Saved me a lot of hassle!
I'm embarrassed to have found this video so late (and so many backing pads later). thanks so much!
I was getting so frustrated with that paper falling off my Festool Sander. Huge video - appreciate it!!!
You're welcome! Glad it helped you. I was there too!
Man wish I saw this 2 weeks ago before I replaced my backer pad. Great tip. Thanks
Thanks for this! Like you said, NOBODY seems to talk about this.
People have been going nuts over the 3M stuff since the Jonathan Katz Moses video, and probably rightly so. What wasn't discussed in the video(s) is using a protection pad, which 3M recommends in their docs. Festool also recommends doing the same when using Granat Net discs. Mirka has them as well.
No protection pad = wear out the hooks on your pad faster.
I always used a protection pad no matter what sand paper I was using. The first thing I did when I got my festool is put a pad on it. It never occurred to me that people would run expensive sanders without a pad since replacing the pad is cheap and replacing part of your sander is not. That being said, I can see how a net paper would wear it out faster than regular paper.
I think you maybe just saved me from ditching this 3m sandpaper! At first, I was like “how is this stuff so popular? I don’t get it” but this makes perfect sense brother. Good video.
!!!! This is why I made the video! 🙏 THANK YOU
I was about to ditch mine too. Weird since everything 3M makes is perfect
Yeah, they don’t think about consumers or woodworkers. Their main clients are auto and aerospace who put in million dollar purchase orders. Makes since when you think of it like that. Still! Sucks.
Today I picked up a Bosch GEX 40-150 and I bought a pack of pad protectors with it. Looks like I did my future self a huge favor, cause I had no idea Xtract wouldn't stick without them :)
Just found your channel and subscribed. Great video. When it comes to youtubers, Jason is good people.
Thank you Tim! Jason is alright. 😏
Awesome vid, 2 major problems fixed in under 10 minutes for $15 dollars! If only all of life’s problems could be solved this easily life would be great. 😊
Thank you for this very informative UA-cam video!
Well done, Sir!
Finally someone talks about it. I had to replace the pad recently and switched paper but I didn’t know about this. Now I can order a protector and go back to my pile of 3m paper.
Jacob, you are the reason I made this video! I am surprised no one else has addressed it.
@@wittworksthe information is definitely out there as I somehow learned it years ago when I bought my festool. Not sure if it’s widely shown in UA-cam videos but I got it from somewhere. Seems like it would be standard day one procedure to put a pad on your expensive festool or mirka. That’s what I did, but again, I’m not sure where I learned it.
Thank you so much for this video. I found out about the protection pads but it was the spongey ones which does not seem to be effective at all. I am looking forward to the thin protection pads coming to see how they go. Been through two backing pads in a few weeks… thank you!!
I recently bought the exact same festool sander because i blew the fuse on my mirka - i didnt know that! Thanks a lot for saving me some headache with my sander.
Best regards
Wicki
You’re welcome! Glad I could help.
I honestly thought I was the only person having the same issue. Thank you for sharing.
I thought the same thing!
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You, The padsavers work great with the sandpaper now.
Thanks! Just ordered it.
oh wow! Let me know if it works for you like it did for me.
Dude. I was having this exact attachment issue. Thank you!
Thanks for the tip, great solution!
One problem I recently discovered with this sandpaper is that the grit comes off if the edges get damaged at all. I was sanding some cabinet doors (open frames for glass to be mounted) and when sanding near inside corners the paper would occasionally get wrinkled a bit. The tiny little bits of ceramic grit from the damaged edge of the paper got onto my black melamine workbench top and when I flipped the doors over to sand the other side, those little bits of grit got pressed into the wood and left tiny dents. This will necessitate a change in my workflow to make sure I either don't lay anything on the bench when sanding, or I have to find a way to lift pieces up and support them evenly so grit can't get trapped under them.
3rd problem that folks have failed to mention. These discs are great for flat surfaces but fail quickly when sanding corners/edges
I went down this same road a couple of years ago and finally discovered the back pad solution. I think a big part of the problem is due to the lack of information provided by the manufactures of the sandpaper. The Diablo brand provides the backing pad with some of their papers. Seems simple, but if you don't know it can be very frustrating. Thank you for the video!
You sir are a legend! I recently upgraded to the Festool sander and was super disappointed in the fact that I had several hundred dollars wrapped up in the 3M sandpaper that wouldn't stick. I knew youtube would save me though. Liked & subscribed!
Edit: Anyone ever tell you that you look like Giovanni Ribisi?
Awesome!
And yes. All the time.
@@wittworks I was thinking that too! Both hot!
Great pair of videos. Keep it coming.
🫡
Thanks for the info
I put some of the 3M sandpaper discs on my Christmas list !
Definitely going to get some protection discs 👍
Always use protection.
Thank you so much. Someone steered me here after I bought 100 Xtract pads and couldn’t use them.❤❤❤❤
Thanks for this, exactly what I needed!
You're welcome!
great video bud! loved it!
Outstanding! Thank you!
Thank you so much. I thought I needed to buy a new sander. I was going through DeWalt sanding pads like crazy using 3M discs.
Glad I could help
Great tip man, Thanks!!
Diablo makes a protection pad that fits 5 or 8 hole pads, in both 5” and 6”
Thanks man! So helpful
Fantastic! I was wondering what am I doing wrong and why the sand mesh does not stick to my brand new Festool sander.....going to order that protection pad right away.
I had this same problem when using Mirka AutoNet discs on my bosch sanders. After buying another backing pad, i also got a few Mirka pad savers and all was well.
This is great, thank you.
Thank you for the good information. I don’t have an expensive sander but I did just purchase some dioblo sanding screens. I will look for one of those pads that will work for my little sander.
You might have got a pad with your devil discs. 🤪 Many say they do. Im at Home Depot right now about to buy some to see for myself.
Thanks man. Your right it was in the middle of the pack. I think this pack came with 50 assorted sheets. This is off topic but that chisel commercial you did was as good as anything on tv.
@@chrisp7957 thank you! I’ll call nbc and apply for a job. I got a pack last night and got a pad with it. Very interesting. Consumers like us aren’t 3Ms priority so I understand why they don’t include it. But still. It would be nice to have a consumer pack.
Thanks for this vid! Taylor Tools was out of the protector pads when I ordered my discs, and I just figured “meh, probably no big deal” so glad I saw this follow up, I just ordered a pair of Festool pads from Amazon :-)
Thanks! Yeah they went through a bunch. Ordered another 300 and sold out quickly too. 3m called them to ask what was up!
@@wittworks Haha, I'll bet sudden orders totaling 600 units for a somewhat obscure part from a hobbyist-oriented reseller leapt out on someone's spreadsheet! Mike Taylor should tell 3M that they owe you a commission - or at least a couple year's supply of abrasive products 😁
I wish!
I lucked out. Whoever I bought that sandpaper from recommended the protection pads. 👍
Awesome vid- loved the animation 😂
Thank you. I just showed the animator your comment. He said thank you.
I just bought a heap of those yesterday. I am using them on an Ozito sander, prob the cheapest one I can buy in Australia. No problems with them coming off.
I bought Diablo mesh 5" sandpaper, and it came with a hook & loop pad. There were no instructions as to what the pad was for, so it sat in the drawer until I saw your video. Fortunately my sander's pad still works well after months of sanding without using the pad.
Good to know! I went to Hd last night after I published the video and bought some.
@@wittworks Curious how the Diablo rates to sandpapers other than anything made by 3M for you? Most people watching videos aren't running large production shops. I was hoping for real world results, that would apply to the hobbyists working out of their garage or pole barn. If a sheet of sandpaper costs pennies on the dollar but only adds a few minutes to a project it's probably a fair trade off for many if not most weekend woodworkers.
I boycotted 3M years before they came out with mesh sandpaper. I can't think of a company that goes harder on planned obsolescence! The "other large yt channel" they sponsor that designed a test and acutely chose data to suggest we should all only by 3M sandpaper and change it out every few minutes or we're apparently "turning a couple hour project into possibly weeks" only provided more evidence I made the right decision with the boycott. Unfortunately I lost a lot of faith in said yt channel too.
Or get an Abranet 10 disc assorted pack. It actually comes with a protector. I’ve been using it for a while now and still haven’t worn out any edge. Fantastic stuff
Regarding the Festool padsaver, I have previously used the Diablo ones (they work great) that you can pick up at your local Home Depot.
Much respect brother! I totally agree
It's great that we're still suffering from proprietary hole patterns.
😭
Before you got to your discovery of the pad saver, I got to thinking that the net paper would most certainly be self-attaching in that the mesh itself would be the loop and the hooks on the backing pad would be exposed.
I think that the manufacturers of the sanders and the net sanding discs should, at the very least, add something to their documentation about the effects of net discs on the backing pad of a sander. If anything, it would relieve them from any liability because they warned us.
Very true. I think why they don’t is because their main business is industry. They have million dollar contracts and those pros know.
(1) You solved my problem. THANK YOU. (2) This video was worth watching for the pixar joke.
Thanks
Interesting. Thanks!
OMG, thank you!
Just as an fyi for anyone curious. Diablo makes a net sanding pad and they include an “application pad” that works with festool sanders.
Awesome channel, dude. Really like your presentation. Have you seen the new Makita dust extractors? There doesn’t seem to be many reviews out. A possible video idea for you (don’t let your wife read this) would be to compare the Makita VC4210L, the Fein Turbo II AC HEPA, and the Festool. From my research, those seem to be the cream of the crop from all dust extractor offerings.
I will check it out! I saw that one last year when I was choosing between festool and them. I'm dumb and ultimately chose festool because it didn't look like a rounded shop vac like the makita has and I preferred festool's hose storage 🙈. My friend has the Fein....good possible idea!
gotta go! she's right behind me and i dont want her reading over my shoulder.
Great tip; all hail the algorithm
Good to know. Loving the Cubitron paper that I bought after your last video. Interesting that Diablo mesh pads come with the protection/interface pad.
I know...I hope 3M is eaves dropping...is that how you spell it?
You can buy the Bosch M480 mesh sandpaper in a multipack that includes a Pad Saver as well :)
I almost want to say that I saw the sale thing from 3M, but I'm not sure. I think their multi pack doesn't include the Pad saver.
I just got myself 4 of the Bosch pad savers for my new GEX 12V-125 sander, and hopefully I'll have time to actually test it out tomorrow :)
That’s great! I want to test that sander. A lot of people recommend it to me. Let me know how you like it.
@@wittworks yeah, it looks and feels great! I really like the form factor and the ergonomics of it.
So far I've only started it, with an almost drained battery, and it's very quiet and very low vibration, but I don't know how good it will actually sand yet :)
I got a few of the M480 papers, and a few of the Bosch F355 papers(for coatings and composites) and I'm waiting for a multipack of the Xtract to arrive, and I'll test and compare them for different use cases :)
Sure, I'll report back when I've actually sanded something with it :) need to strip of some varnish of a pair of oak door sills so that I can stain them to match my dark oak floors.
@@wittworks So, I finally had time to actually use my GEX 12V-125 sander the other day, both with M480 mesh sand"paper" and the F355 sandpaper from Bosch. Yeah, I really like this machine, it's just fantastic :) The ergonomics is more or less exactly like an Airsander, but it doesnt get cold and is much less noisy. I'd say it's the most quiet sander I've ever used, with a significant margin. Low vibrations as well, just like all other Bosch Professional tools I own so far.
It is surprisingly powerful for a 12V sander that only weighs 800grams without the battery, and with the 3AH batteries it is very well balanced.
Even with a 400 grit F355 paper and the second to lowest speed I had to be careful to not sand through the 2 coats of ZAR polyurethane varnish I had put on the day before on some oak.
I sanded away the factory varnish on 2 oak door sills in maybe 8-10 minutes with 80 grit M480 paper and the battery was showing 2 out of 3 bars when I was done.
The built-in dust collection is actually very good, and with the Bosch Ventaro vaccum I have, I actually had more dust coming out of the vacuum when I connected it to the sander, than what the sander left behind if I didnt use the vacuum! That probably means that the bag I have in the Ventaro isnt all that great, I'll have to check that out. There was more or less no dust left on the workpieces when using the vacuum, but some in the workshop air :P
The vacuum is also a lot louder than the sander on full speed, and it makes the sander a lot more bulky. I see myself using the sander with its built-in dustcolletion quite a lot in the future.
The sanding pad stops almost instantly when you turn the sander of, and it gets up to speed very quickly, one of the benefits of Brushless motors I guess.
It is of course not the most powerful sander, but the compactness and relative power is fantastic. Sure, a multitool with a sanding pad is also fairly compact and powerful, but not as good at sanding as real random orbit sander.
All in all, I'm very happy that I bought the sander and it more or less convinced me that I want to get a Bosch GET 55-125 or GET 75-150 for bigger sanding jobs (I have a 13,5x2,55m sailboat that I need to sand the entire deck and hull to paint it for example). Sadly I dont really think any of the other Bosch sanders will offer as good ergonomics as the GEX 12V-125 or the GEX 18V-125, and perhaps the GET models are simply to big and powerful for finish sanding, so I may consider a Mirka Deros or 3M Xtract sander instead, not sure yet :)
Solid video. Keep it up.
🫡
To be fair, on the inside of the systainer lid (on the RO150 at least) there is a list of all the sandpaper you can get, and for the net ones (festool granat net etc.) it explicitly states to use the protection pad. There are also order numbers for them on there. But no clue if this is exclusive to the RO150 or not.
Giovanni, is that you? Loved your performance in "Heaven" but how did you get so knowledgeable about woodworking? Thanks so much.
Hilarious.
Thank you!!!!!
thank you!!
Loved your information. Why don't they make it for 9"?
Im way late to the party, but my surf prep came with a ton of great paper and came with 2 sanding protectors.
What camera do you use, sir?
Love your videos! 👌🏼👌🏼
sony a6600 with a sigma lens
Thanks!
I've purchased both new OEM pads for my DeWalt orbital sander and protection pads (not Festool yet) - and the cubitron 5" discs still spin off. I used spray glue to put them on some cheap discs - and that actually worked, but then there is no dust collection. The problem here is with the material on the cubitron discs. I can't believe 3M won't fix this. I ordered the Festool protestion pads today to try. If they don't work, I'm through with cubitron discs until 3M does the right thing.
Thanks Buddy, great information. Gonna get mine today. And yes festool should include them with a $500. WTF
Right?! But as I think about it, they probably don't because they expect you to use THEIR sandpaper...
Diablo mesh pads came with the protection pad
Just got back from Hd and bought a pack! I hope 3m sees this.
Completely off subject, but do you make Milwaukee guid rail mounting clips? An assembly for hanging tracks on a wall or even a ceiling of a van?
I do and will list them soon on my website. Just need to take quality photos
Thank you. I was thinking it was me. For once it wasn't !!
Need some help!
I use the same sand paper and the same Festool sander/pad saver.
But now I’m having problems with the sander wobbling like crazy! I’ve attempting centering the sanding pad but it still wobbles as the pad circulates. As soon as I remove the pad saver the sander is smooth again. Any ideas!?
I have an Einhell (~40USD) orbital sander, I have no issues with attaching the 3M Cubitron sanding disks.
I have had the Mirka Ceros and the Mirka Deros and thy have the same problem, then i used the protectionpad, but after a while the same problem accurd. So that is not working also (for me).
Diablo sandpaper also has these in Their packs of sandpaper and that’s what I use for my Milwaukee sander with the cubitron. I feel like it works well. Not perfect but good.