Dawntrail and Jobs being TOO SIMPLE??? FFXIV
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- Опубліковано 4 жов 2024
- WAY TOO SIMPLE???
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Hello everyone I am Jmulls of Jmulls Gaming and welcome to my little corner of the internet!
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In today's video, I react to Yoshi P's interview with Preach Gaming and focus on the concept of MMO's taking risks!
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![Dawntrail Tank Changes! [FFXIV Media Tour]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7zS3KpJ2qd0/mqdefault.jpg)
![Dawntrail Tank Changes! [FFXIV Media Tour]](/img/tr.png)
Hey all, Yoshi P clarified on the livestream that the article messed up, don't expect the job changes in Dawntrail, and that they are using Dawntrail to basically try new things gameplay wise that will end up with job changes down the line (in a previous stream he threw out 8.0) but my points still stand in this vid just changes the timeline a bit 👍
I mean that's nice and all but I really don't wanna spend another two full years spamming broil as a scholar main lol. Just gonna get through msq for dawn trail and un sub probably til they make the entire role at all engaging
I would love if jobs were designed for fun and identify first. Unfortunately job design will always prioritize endgame raiding first. and fun/identity usually means imbalance and crying.
I talked about in the video how Yoshi P said they are focusing on reintroducing identity to the jobs and that they acknowledge the over simplification is a problem and they need to stop doing that
Because "fun and identity" will always be throw away when some jobs are "to weak" (even if the difference is just 2-3%) because in the end people want other people with "the best" jobs, sure there are some people that play C Tier and lower Jobs/Classes on a perfect level that they are more usefull then the average meta slave.. but people dont want to take that risk and choice the meta.
And tbh learning that your "fun job" that you enjoy playing is avoided in the endgame because he "is to weak" (even if the difference is maybe 5%) is also not a funny experience and can give people the feeling they wasted their time to learn this.
Imo its a problem _created by the community_ and the devs just respond to make it less problematic.
I don’t think identity is really related to balance. Balance is a matter of numbers not really a jobs mechanics. I think the bigger issue is all skill additions really amount to being the same thing just looks a little different. Identify is really related asking what the point of a job is. Red mage dual cast is a big example of something only that job can do. I think they need to ask that question with each job and design fight mechanics that can be dealt with using those unique tools.
I still have Hissatsu: Kaiten on my bar, I miss it
a 50% boost for the next weapon skill, for only 20 gauge? it was nice...
it was super easy to weave into a combo too, I'd always use it after getting the skill I wanted to use with it prepped, a feint, then Kaiten, then unleash the skill
Also felt nice thematically as well, as if you were preparing for a big sword strike which is something that fits with the vibe of Samurai imo
at the liveletter today he explained that it was a misstranslation. They aren't gonna do any big job changes, it's encounters for this expansion.
Then the convo just pivots back to the 8.0 target he mentioned before but the points remain the same. Sucks having to wait an entire expac, but I have jobs I enjoy enough that I don't mind playing and Viper looks great so I can wait for 8.0
ive been reading apparently he's said similar stuff in endwalker and before too. I don't know if any major change can be expected at all.
As a healer i don't belive they are planning to actually fix anything. Looking at the 90-100 abilities they are getting. As well as the astro change all the healers feel even more samey something i didn't think was possible
Yeah it's like that with DRK, where many DRK players hate the stupidly simple MP "management" around TBN and Edge usage, while others refuse to even entertain the thought of changes to any of it cause they're so scared that TBN might be adjusted, despite it having already fallen behind the curve of defensives skills due o being so stuck in the past. So they show all the job changes and DRK didn't get any of their major issues addressed and many DRK players are upset cause of how clunky everything is and how it lacks even the most basic amounts of interactivity within it's own kit still, but others let out a large sigh of relief that the job was once again basically left in the same state it was a couple expansions ago. So if they do ever update it and bring it up to par to the other tanks for content outside of peak endgame, where it performs just fine on all fronts, half of the people who play it will cheer to finally have it modernized, but the other half will act as if they killed it again and the world was ending cause of it.
It's the inevitability of MMO job design. I still MUCH prefer the balance in FFXIV where everything may be somewhat similar but they're all viable, compared to games like WoW where there is a lot of class diversity but you end up in situations where half of the classes and subclasses simply are not even viable anymore due to how they are so obscenely outperformed by the other half, and to anyone who is thinking "well just balance them better" I'll point out the fact that in WoW's entire lifespan it has never actually managed to come anywhere near that, not from the moment it launched to the current day expansions, it's an unavoidable side product of having more class diversity.
There's probably a middle ground for that somewhere, but even THAT will have players divided on where that "middle ground" even is, so I'll choose to keep my faith in CBU3 cause they're the only devs for any of the MMOs I've played that actually listen to their playerbase to such a scale, if they get things wrong they admit it and make adjustments, sure maybe those adjustments aren't always enough but they're something and you're simply a spoiled brat if nothing but pure perfection will keep you from raging on the internet about it.
I think 14's balancing also has the advantage to where it doesn't have as many factors to consider like WoW does. Take something like Shadowlands for example, where not only did you have your class abilities, but also your spec, then add on all the variety talent trees bring to the table, on top of whatever you got from your Covenant and then all the stat management. It's a LOT in WoW, whereas in 14 its just kind of your jobs, and then your stats and what you want your gcd to be at. And even if a role in ff14 is bad for whatever reason, you are still incentivized to bring at least one from that role, so that also helps in that regard. It's def a difficult conversation to have because like you said, no one wants to be left out because the job they enjoy playing the most is bad. I tend to find that attitude exists less in FF14 from my experience, but at the end of the day, it's a multiplayer game and you will prob run into that on some level.
At the end of the day WoW and FF14 are different games with different gameplay goals and that's ok. I think good ff14 job design ranks right up there with good WoW class design personally, both have had their own respective issues in recent years, but I think FF14 can afford to lean a bit more towards individuality and job uniqueness before it suffers the opposite problems to an egregious degree.
17:00 - TREMBOL
Power slash from dark knight. I miss it so much.
Other than that, healers really need some way to spice up their DPS rotation other than pressing just one button. Now, I don't mind it for AoE damage during duties, but during boss fights, it's so damn boring. I generally don't play healers anymore because of it. I want to do more while I don't have healing to do during down time.
Yeah it's one of the reasons why when I used to heal a little bit, I'd play Scholar because at least I would have energy drain lol
The fact that I can make a female hrothgar look like my male Russian blue cat is what sold me on the fantasia switch. I like the roegadyn but I REALLY like basing a character on my beloved cat.
I also think that Yoshi-P should just update classes based on what makes them more fun & gives them identity like with the scholar, that fairy is an iconic piece of that class.
Yeah exactly imo, I don't play scholar but it's new abilities look aesthetically perfect for it imo
Oversimplified? For real? I really struggle to play any job because they feel overloaded and busy all the time. It feels like playing piano executing the right rotation..
As a black mage I’m pissed.
im not a black mage main but i've heard this a bit, is there a specific change black mages don't like, or is it just the whole package when it comes to umbral ice
@@JMulls whole package and especially the lack of damage when damage is it’s only utility. Its damage should be number one or slightly below samurai. They took 4 rotations away for 1 garbage rotation.
The "over simplification" people need to dial it back and decide on definitions. People dont want things dumbed down to 10 abilities like Guild Wars 2. On the other hand, go play WoW or some other game if you want 40+ hot keys for complex weaves and situations. We can strike a middle ground that doesnt have button bloat without giving ground to people that just want complex for the sake of complicated mechanics. Between the talk about reducing button bloat and making jobs more individual, Im hopeful that in my future there will be a solid 10 hotkey core rotation and maybe 10 or less situationals.
Yeah I think them basically making combos just one hotkey that swaps to the different abilities will help a lot for button bloat. I like having quite a few buttons to press but I want them to be meaningful and fun to press. I think the goal is basically what you said, the way I'd put it is, I want the jobs to still feel like FFXIV jobs because I really enjoy that, I don't want them to become WoW, but we need to lean back towards Stormblood (and from what I hear HW as well but I started in SB) and away from where we have been going. For instance, I don't think most of the jobs that I have played personally, are THAT far away from where I'd want them to be idyllically. I think Summoner is way too simple personally but I love how garuda, ifrit, and titan all play different and bring different ideas to the table, just expand on that a bit and I'd play a ton of summoner, just right now it's been culled too much for me.
There is an answer to some people wanting easier classes and some people wanting more complex classes.
Have simple jobs, complex jobs, and jobs in between. Kinda like we used to
Yeah like that has it's issues like I talked about in the vid, but personally I think the benefits outweigh the cons. The extreme high end will adjust as they will, but I think having that variety is important
@JMulls not really you just pointed out that if they all do the same damage people just looking to clear will go for the easier classes. Or if the complex classes did more damage people able to use them would.
Neither of those things are problems.
In the first instance you'll still have people who want a challenge picking the harder classes. Like picking difficulty in any other game.
In the second instance you're just rewarded with faster clear times or larger numbers for game mastery. Just like any other game lol
For me its not specifically the job "Complexity", its the homogenization. every job is the same. DPS 123 combo, spender, 123 combo, spender. Tank mits are the same except 1 or 2 skills that are fairly unique, but basically are the same job. Healers, OGCD spenders, rare cast, and then spam their 1 dot and 1 attack spell. the only thing that makes jobs different form each other are visuals. i'm exaggerating, but the homogenization is way too much. make jobs different. 2 min meta sucks. i want jobs play fast or slow based on their own lore and mechanics. make them different. and if that means buffs do not always overlap, then good. the 2 min burst is annoying.
i'm not a savage/ultimate player. not interested in that in the slightest. but i want the jobs to be different because ethe jobs matter. idgaf that they all line up and the 2 min meta is required for the dps check on savage. i want the MSQ dungeon and basic game play to feel unique. that when i paly a job, it is THAT job. not just a glamour of DPS, Tank or Heal.
Yeah that's a great way of putting it. I think there's still some decent differences for the dps jobs I personally play, but like I covered in the vid, its fun when you are playing as a job and you feel like you are that job, having job identity is super important in this game and I feel as if they have been pivoting to feeling like your role too much over the last couple expacs
I don’t think oversimplification is the issue. The real issue is the homogenization of all the jobs. Nearly every job in this game except for the two new ones coming up and the two new ones recently released are all exactly the same and have nothing differentiating them from the other jobs except for their weapons.
It's an issue with the overreliance on the 2 min window imo, to where they go "ok we now need to force all these jobs to burst on a 2 min timer that weren't built for this to begin with, so now we kind of have to mold them together somewhat to make it work" If they can let go of that mentality, I think we'll start to see more creative job design as well
@@JMulls thats just biased let new people and those who wanna enjoy the game pls don't throw that overused quote on it just to think it will fit those with actual limitations consider that pls
Monk would be great as a fisty cuff viper
Yeah exactly that's how I imagine it, one of the reasons I love Greased Lightning. It should be (imo) a really fast job that's all about punching things really hard and that's basically what it is and I've been really enjoying that
At this point it's just sad. Until Shadowbringers hit we had amazing jobs.
I really don't get the logic of making endgame encounters more interesting. We're not in these "supposed" encounters all the time but we do use a job whenever we do literally anything in XIV. The game also expects you to do your daily roulette. Wouldn't it be better to also have fun doing those? Because I can tell you right now, they ain't.
They agree as per what I covered in the video and are going to try and add more individuality to the jobs from 7.2 on. Yoshi P specifically called out the Kaiten situation for Samurai and said jobs (specifically Sam) won't get more simple, seems like they've finally agreed with the sentiment imo
@@JMulls Yeah. That actually has me quite excited. I'm tempering my expectations, but overall I like what I heard. I'm a big fan of having these moments that can only happen if your chosen job is quite good at something in particular.
Same, I personally really miss Stormblood Dark Knight for example
@@TheOneGreat The problem happens when your chosen job isn't that job and then no one wants you because it can't do that thing in particular. There is no good answer to that though. You either go too far one way like they have in FFXIV or you get WoW, where literally 3/4 of the jobs in the game at any moment are junk. Finding a balance is exceptionally hard on that matter.
Overall I would rather they lean towards the system they have now than something like WoW. Being forced to play a job you don't like because no one wants the job you want to play is such a horrible feeling.
@@JathraDH That only applies if you care or you parse. And even if by some miracle content requires it you can literally press a button and be a new job. The system since ShB is exceptionally boring for me.
"There was more people complaining about Kaiten than wanting to keep it," well yeah. Cause those who wanted to keep it, already had it, they didn't have a reason to complain *until it was removed.* And now look at black mage, and how they're going to change that, and many black mages are upset by the changes. I really hope they do know what they're doing, and I really hope these future changes totally change the course of this ship.
We'll have to see of course, and at this point, I don't want to get excited for it, I don't want to put those eggs in the basket until I see what's cooking first because I don't want to get burned. I do genuinely hope they got some strong ideas in mind, cause we need it, really bad, and for them to learn the lesson that just because people complain doesn't mean you should always take what they have to say to heart. But I'm not willing to put faith into it, not yet.
Yeah it could easily be a nothing burger, but it does feel like they are doing it in parts, where they are taking Dawntrail to test out new gameplay mechanics, and then going off of that, design the jobs from there from the sounds of it. Luckily there's a few jobs I still really enjoy like Drg, Monk, and Reaper.
@@JMulls Maybe, maybe, though the problem with that kind of... I"m not sure what you'd call it, process choice? The problem is it hurts a lot of players in the interim, and having to maybe wait another two years to see any fruit, that's asking a lot. If it was any other game, I think that could be potentially devastating.
I think they're playing a very high risk play here, because if there's a delay till past 8.0, or the changes don't live up to expectations, it could cause a lot of damage especially to their reputation, which is what they're kinda banking off of with this.
@@OldRedGrizzly I 100% get that and do agree and wish we could get changes earlier, but job changes is like the number 1 way an MMO can lose players, we saw it so much back in World of Warcraft, it absolutely sucks for us who like to try and get better at the job we play even if we don't do super high end stuff, but if they are really haphazard with this and have to change it a bunch of times due to a lack of a singular vision for where these jobs should go, that would be even more devastating to the health of the game imo.
I think the game they are playing is, most people probably don't care enough to where if Dawntrail's content is good enough, they won't leave the game, and for those who do, if they get the jobs right in 8.0 they'll come back, instead of rushing out a bunch of changes that could throw off all the raiding, even casual tiers, and be a massive headache throughout Dawntrail.
@@JMulls Yeah, I personally can't compare cause I never played WoW, I've only heard of its troubles through UA-cam and others I've talked to.
I certainly hope you're right. I may not have played WoW, but I've been through other MMOs and I've seen bad design and structure, and I've seen decisions that shattered a playerbase. I really really don't want any of that happening to this one. I may be quite wary, cause you can only get burned so many times by the promises of others, but I do think if they're given the right direction, this team is definitely capable of turning it around.
I will say though, no matter what, I think how jobs are done would have to be addressed at some point, cause like, three or four expansions from now, I don't see being like... level 140 and having another, I dunno, dozen more actions added to your rotation really working out too well. I think it'd be too much for anyone at that point. I am really curious to know what they're planning, and I hope it's something like possibly branching builds? Maybe based around expanded combo sequences where you can swap between different rotations.
I just started playing and i see this video in my recomended. Like what? 😭😭😭
If you just started playing then don't worry. The game will be wonderful for a long time for you. These are issues that vets start seeing after a long time playing mostly once the cracks start appearing. They aren't something you need to worry about, or probably will even notice until you have a lot of experience with the game.
@JathraDH Oh okay, I see thank you!
You'll be fine, the video is more optimistic than anything since I talk about them listening to player feedback and working on changes, game's amazing and I hope you enjoy your time with it! Easily one of if not the best gaming experience I've ever had
@@JMulls i see no optimism only the hate of qol stuff that will help others play the game the way they want to everyone is dif
@@1reddt if you see no optimism in this video it's because you didn't watch the whole video
I'm strictly casual, I've played FF14 for about a year, and I currently still have about 80 days of sub but I'm going to let them run out
It's not just oversimplification in my opinion, some of the skills, abilities (wathever) I use regularly, in the only class I actually like, are going to be nerfed, why???
It's so ridiculous that when you start some classes at level 1, they give you a speech about the class, and how it works, and why but now, in some, it doesn't make sense because what made the class unique, has been removed
It's sad because I left WoW, I didn't like GW2 that much, and now FF14 is not going to be fun for me anymore
Edit: To be quite honest, I don't trust the optimist of creators which have committed years or they whole career to make content for FF14, I saw the same reaction in WoW when some highly controversial changes happened, in many cases it seemed they were just trying to save their job
"Based on a reddit poll" lol.
Rofl.
Lmao even.
Echo chamber reddit as a source.
Jab on that aside, its good to see a healthy take on this topic for once.