You generally want more direct hit than crit melds because almost all of your gear should be crit/det with some tenacity gear if it will help you hit the next breakpoint and end up being a gain over crit/det.
@mosley3485 It sort of depends: If you have full crit on a piece anyway, then direct hit is the best you can do for damage. But it is usually only really the case that Direct Hit beats over Crit in general in the first raid tier. From a Casual point of view, which Rambo mentioned, it is unlikely they have very much control over whether there IS crit/det or Crit/Ten on their gear at all, since they will be at the mercy of whatever is on crafted gear or tomestone gear, so that also matters!
Have to agree here for a couple of reasons. Usually, casual tank players are more likely to end up in level/ilvl synced situations where having 'ideal melds' effectively becomes pointless because...all materia melds become disabled when synced. For a casual to semi-endgame you might want to idealize your melds depending on the comfort level of your playing ability, but in most cases Crit to as close to cap and adjusting to other break points of other stats will be the usual go to, or simply stated Crit/det melding as a casual player isn't bad and is more likely what most will do.
Not really, even expert dungeons can easily be completed solo after a lot of time with no tenacity on most tanks. Not sure what content you feel like that damage reduction is necessary.
Piety has been in a similar situation for a while on healers. I think it's a situation where when everyone is playing as close to optimally as possible just relying on cooldowns for for damage reduction and mp restoration is more than enough. Those stats definitely have more value for casual players but I still believe ten and pie should just be innate on gear in the way strength or mind are. Even casual players gear themselves like savage raiders because sites like the balance or icy veins are the first things that come up on search engines if you look for job advice.
Very true. There is also the part that the kind of content a casual player would be doing is so much lower in difficulty that even if they could benefit from the stats, they hardly need the extra help either! Personally, I feel that at this point, most of the stats sort of merge together to be the same, since Crit, Direct Hit and Determination ultimately all say "Damage number bigger!" it could be argued that just like Tenacity and Piety could be baked into gear innately... All stats mostly could when we really think about it! (With the exception of speed I guess?)
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Yeah, speed is I think the stat that makes the most sense to be customizable. Different speed tiers have different value for different jobs or scenarios. The rest is like you say just more damage and or healing with linear progression.
Piety's interesting to me since it has an extremely sharp breakpoint on it's usefulness. It's THE most important stat on healers up to the point where you have enough that you no longer run out of MP on a fight, after which it becomes literally useless. That break point of course is affected by your usual play environment and personal ability - a PF warrior who forgets to use Lucid half the time will probably want more piety vs a speedclear addict, as extreme examples.
Piety has a conundrum of being a binary stat If you run out of mp then the piety value skyrocket but if not it became a useless stat But with Tenacity at least you still get that value most of the time since it’s just more dmg done + less dmg taken
Actually, Tenacity increases overall Party DPS, since Healers have to spend less time Healing you and can spend more time DPS'ing! ... Is what I would have said, if Healers ever had to use their GCD Healing skills. Which, to be fair, happens a little bit in Dawntrail content nowadays. Just not really in the *Tank's* direction. Can you imagine, though? A game where you'd minmax to such a degree. 😅
Even if there was large amount of GCD healing required, tenacity as is likely wouldn't make enough difference to make it worth damagewise. Changing it to affecting all incoming healing (from self or others) would make it potentially valuable for fights where healers are expected to GCD heal a tank a lot (which also we don't really have) - damage loss compared to crit would be less than party damage loss from healing GCDs. Which would also be amazing to see - forcing someone to sacrifice their personal dps but letting players to figure out how to handle it.
What I'm hearing is it's basically like GCD Speed. Unless you have a specific breakpoint you're aiming for to solve a specific problem, it's _still_ not worth the opportunity cost. Which is an improvement over it being pretty much useless, I guess!
i feel like it was more of a gil-issue... tenacity is cheapAF since it sux. And ANY* meld is better then no meld. (Any* = a meld that is actually useful for the current class... using piety on a dps/tank would just be dumb)
@@andrewdesalvatore7262 that, and also the fact that you're spiritbonding faster when its overmelded. So you get the chance to actually get the materia you want.
Kinda cool how this video demonstrates why det is better than a balanced det/dh for healers in prog. If you balance det/dh, you get a whole 0.17% increase to your dps, at the cost of 5% of your healing output. As a healer you do less than 8% of the boss's HP, so this translates to like 0.01% of the boss's hp. Taken another way, if the lesser healing causes you to do a singular additional GCD heal over the entire fight then you lost dps due to your melds. If you're a scholar and you needed to use two additional aetherflow heals over the whole fight, you lost dps due to your melds
@@Pandaxtor usually dow goes with dow , dom goes with dom . Paladin are an exception . I'm just not sure if its . Paladin healing healer to steal healer agro . Remember paladin are tank not dps
i'm just a sprout but if paladin are dps . It's the most useless class . I am paladin . But if my job is to manage agro , meaning stealing agro via giving heal and me receiving heal . I bet i agro like a maniac wich i can give to the other tank . Etc . This make more sense tank job wise . I bet each tank class is quasi similar . Dps can not dps too much agro, healer cant heal too much agro , if i'm right ? Playing paladin is hard
It's got to save enough healing GCDs to be an overall damage gain, or alternatively you just won't have enough mitigation to survive every hit without the extra sturdiness. So considering how little healers need to use their GCD heals, and how much mitigation every class has, I'd say it's going to stay useless for a long time.
@@user-eg2oe7pv2i i mean, keep it the same way that piety is now; but ALSO give it some dmg/heal+ too (about 50% as potent as determination). Soooo when you're forced to use piety in a max-ilvl gear-set it at least contributes a lil bit to the highly coveted DPS+
I think a large part of the problem is gow unbalanced 14s stats are in general. Crit will always outscale anything else no matter the job making stats really imbalanced, espically in compairson to other mmos, espically wow. In short...sqe rework the stat system
It's not just crit that is the problem. The problem is mainly that no matter what, as long as one stat is the best to speed up the fight, no matter whether it's crit or DH or DET, people will use only that stat while ignoring the rest. In order to make all stats viable, the game would need bosses with attribute variations, for example some bosses with a very high crit reduction, making it very unlikely to deal critical hits, while others have very low crit protection but high direct hit protection. Of course, that wouldn't work because people would complain that they'd have to resocket Materia for every fight to have an oPtImAl PaRsE.
@@kyoai that's EXTREMELY unrealistic of any game tbh. I do agree it's not just crit, but I think the better move is to make all the stats aligned more in value so classes can naturally gravitate towards what their kit needs more.
@@kyoai They would complain they would have to resocket materia/ carry different gearsets even if they werent going for a parse, especially for overmelds. They will either ignore it and do less damage or complain that they have to swap constantly and it wouldn't solve anything, just make people angry. As long as a stat is tied to damage it will be better then the others. For there to be more viable and interesting stats none of them can be tied to damage.
it's been fine without tenacity in savage but i do keep the savage tenacity skewed chest piece in case that reduction will be handy in FRU or alliance savage that are coming. Who knows, maybe that tenacity diff will be a relevant break point for some mechanic
IMO, Tenacity is fine. It's just fine, and it was just fine in Endwalker too. It fills two specific niches: allowing people to control their SkS without dropping item level, and allowing less-experienced players to have an option for increased defenses. It's not like Piety where it's useless enough for damage that you want to get rid of it at any cost, including dropping item level, but it's not so good that it obsoletes Determination. In terms of its pure contribution to your damage, it's not good. But the important thing is that it's good *enough* that you can settle for it if it means avoiding SkS that would put you at a GCD you don't want.
The developers can benefit from playing Guild Wars 2. They are the king of horizontal progression in an MMO and may be able to convert some ideas to the materia.
@@xL0stKIlahGuild wars has way more build variety in 2 classes than the whole ff14 job system has in all his jobs combined. This is sad and awesome at the same time.
Tenacity is, and always will be, bad for the simple reason that it is *redundant*. There's too many sources of varying levels of damage reduction that are baked into the job design for the devs to be able to enforce an amount of passive defence. And without the passive defence it's just determination but worse. IMO the substat system kinda doesn't work, but this is mostly because the fight design is DPS focused. There's really only two forms of skill expression in FFXIV fights. Doing damage, and standing in the correct spot, and that's it.
Great, now they just got to figure out how to make piety better. And it is good to know l will have a permanent rampart now in wanderer's palace whenever l cheese it, lol
As a main tank. It's worthless, never use gear with Tenacity, and never meld it to your gear either. Your gear should have Crit + Det, and you should meld Direct Hit, since we don't get DH naturally on our gear, or if you main GNB you can put some Skill Speed on your gear. Tenacity is never going to outweigh the use of Crit, Det & DH.
Sometimes, it's better to take a gear piece as a tank that has tenacity than skill speed. All of the tanks are really good at base skill speed, so avoiding it as an omni tank is more important than avoiding tenacity.
@@Jay-mx5ky Tbh also often is the gear reduced in.. "Where can i get the most CRT/DET and the right amount of SKS as Tank?" When you play for example PLD where 2.5 is "optimal" you will always pick a part with TEN for having the optional GCD.. How you play GNB depends how much SKS you have (Slowbreaker, Fastbreaker)
idk about that, brother. I've had Main tanks in PF that can't roll their mitigations at all to the point they end up dying to autos. I'd prefer if the people who refuse to learn mitigation management to just meld tenacity and eat their DPS loss to give everyone less of a headache. Of course they could just not participate in savage entirely but they do anyway.
The problem with this game's stats is that because it is such a dps centric encounter system, the only stats that are good are the stats that increase your dps the most, which happens to be Critical Hit for everyone and Direct Hit for tanks because it's a core dps stat that they're just missing from their gear for no reason. If tanks had a set direct hit rate that could not be increased or decreased, _then_ tenacity would be worth melding because it would need to be a stat to fill in some pieces of gear that are capped in det and crit after melds. Ultimately though, the problem with TEN is that it doesn't belong in a meta that exclusively focuses on enrages because Yoshi P refuses to make the raid complexity anything more than that; if a tank is taking too much damage during raids, then it is a player skill issue that can easily fixed with some adjustments to defensive cooldowns and healer mit. They won't improve healer playstyles and they won't increase raid damage output, so all we're left with is just building to kill the bosses as quickly as possible. It's a system that's functional but it has the depth of a puddle. It's a shame too, because the fight design in this game is really fun. It's too bad that the gearing systems in XIV can't also be fun, for more reasons than just this one. (Why are we still unable to gear more than one class in an MMO that proudly boasts more than 1 playable class per character?)
Ive seen it a couple of times now so Im curious, what would they do instead of an enrage? At some point a fight has to let the dps know they failed their role. When tanks fail, you die, when healers fail, you die, so when the dps fail, you die. What would be put in the place of and enrage?
Great discussion video Cae! This reminds me of WoW's high-end where versatility does basically the same thing, but damage reduction is half the value of damage boost and it already gets to the point where classes with worse than average defensive tools might have to stack versatility just to live bleeding edge encounters. Let's just say people aren't too happy with that. I doubt this would be a problem for FFXIV ever, mostly because the issue is primarily seen in highest level mythic plus keys, an infinitely scaling system.
As a tank main, I'm still not taking enough damage for defensive stats to matter at all. Might as well go for more dps. One day, I hope se will make boss autos do substantially more damage to the point we have to actually consider boosting our defence, but I doubt they will change anything.
If it gets to that point with boss autos or attacks in general you run the risk of creating a fight that cannot be won without deaths from the people who did not meld very specific things, because I assume you want them to kill more often than not, since getting low hp is not necessarily an issue most of the time during autos.
@shelflord1686 I want them to kill me if I run content without a healer. At the moment, on pld, I can run expert dungeons with 3 dps and keep them all alive myself. I believe some giga Chad's have even cleared M4S with no healers, too. I think tanks are currently too strong, and they make healers feel redundant.
In a game where damage dealt trumps all, it's hard to make "take less damage" appealing. The only way I see people considering it is if it's nearly impossible to survive without it. But then you get to the point where it feels necessary, which stifles player freedom.
Exactly. Because of optimization, aside from specific niches like individuals that need the assistance (meaning optimization goes out the window anyway), whatever is maximum damage is optimal once damage is survivable, which means whatever is required is mandatory, meaning no choice 😅
I'm still not sold on tenacity, but I can see the argument for an inexperienced tank getting into high end content for the first time. I definitely wouldn't recommend it longterm though.
Simple rule of games is, if its possible to do something on a glass cannon build, then using a glass cannon build is meta. You build for bare minimum defense. The only way they can make tenacity useful is if they make it required, which is probably more trouble than its worth. Its like elemental resistance in vanilla WoW. You use as much as you need to be able to optimally clear content and no more. The only purpose it serves beyond that is as an extra grind, which I don't mind from an RPG point of view, but having to gear up to raid with other players causes more logistic problems than it grants immersion value.
@@Jay-mx5ky WoW abandoned elemental resistance as well as far as I know. GW2 actually did have defensive stats as viable for a while, not sure how it is now though. Essentially you could build healer that was full defense and healing (no DPS) and they essentially were able to negate the vast majority of raid mechanics so people could just ignore them and DPS. It wasn't optimal since people who knew how to do fights properly could spec full DPS and burn through them easily. However, people who didn't would wipe for hours, so being able to just brute force raids was extremely useful for pugs.
I play tank in mostly casual content and an additional 12% inherent damage reduction is so good that I just put as much tenacity on myself as I can. Especially right now when people are neither fully geared nor do they know the fights well enough to not get hit by things, putting extra strain on the healers. Healers whose quality also varies MASSIVELY, I don't need the extra damage especially for the content I am doing where just doing the rotation better can get you like 10-30% potency gains overall just by itself. I can't do my rotation when I am dead.
I'm maxing Ten on tank jobs mainly to annoy the tanks in my static, but I do think it's legitimately a good choice. To my mind the question is if you think a wipe to a
Why do I feel called out for stacking tenacity on my tank, in all seriousness though I do thank you for making feel a little less bad about it trying out savage for the first time, being able to make mistakes in prog vs my squishy healers where I misplace myself and I feel like I’m hurting the entire team more. Also thank you for the older guides on Paladin ran it up to 100 as my first tank and been enjoying a lot more after the initial anxiety passed, now doing dark knight grind Help:)
Please don't stack tenacity for the love of God lol, if you die in savage its because of mits, or mechs, or healers, and no amount of extra dr is worth killing the boss faster.
I'm glad you found them helpful! I do recommend trying without tenacity at first and see how it goes, as you should be fine without stacking it! 😊 If you do hop into savage a tip I can give just to start for an example is that on the first boss in the current raid tier, you should be fine to use rampart pretty much whenever it is available while the tank chooses to do some auto attacks. Often what can really makes this damage overwhelming is if you feel like all of your cooldowns must be saved for tank busters, but knowing some of them are free out the gate can help! 😊
I kinda wish Tenacity materia did have an effect, if reduced, when synced down - I'd *love* to have a "make it easier for inexperienced healers" gear option, especially on my characters I don't tank challenging content on.
It is quite strange they decided to completely turn off materia when synced down. It would indeed add some more customization to the game in parts where that freedom is more helpful too
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It really wouldn't be too hard to scale the materia properly. I really don't know why they made it this way. Just have the materia downgrade to the equivalent for that expansion. So Grade XII would become Grade VIII when synced to level 71-80.
I suspect one group is going to try tenacity on tank and/or off tank in the ultimate fight coming. That's the only place where it can really make a difference. It'll either help, or cripple them, and I can not make that call, not even as a gues.
Isn't that a problem with fight and class design rather than in the stats? Fights don't separate players since HW, so the extra mitigation never comes into play if your healer is gonna fix you up almost immediately, nor classes in general play off substats like one button or two scaling with how much Tenacity or Skill Speed the character has and make stats actually not feel boring, you can argue this one is gonna make stats too good, but at the same time the game would be balanced that in mind. Tenacity isn't bad on its own, but the game doesn't really create situations for it to shine.
An idea I've had to solve all of this is for SE to consolidate Det and Ten into a single stat, and then turn all Ten listings on tank gear into DH. I'm sure some folks might look at this and ask about the non-tanks suddenly having damage mitigation; and to that I say the mitigation needs to be tied to current armor rather than the damage being received. This means non-tanks might only see a hair's difference in survivability from Det, as opposed to tanks whose Det and higher armor stats would mean far greater gains in protection. I doubt SE will go this route, much like I doubt they'll do away with Piety as a gear stat (instead baking it into healers at desired MP regen levels), but it's what I've been thinking since early ShB. This idea has not shaken in the slightest in the last five years.
A solution I read a while ago and like: Make Tenacity give DH's effect (but no other form of dmg up). Only meldable in Tank gear. Piety gives mana regen, maybe heal potency and also the DH effect. Only meldable in Healer gear. Supports can no longer meld DH. DH is a DPS substat now. Can maybe argue for adding something to it, like being a better DH than piety/tenacity, or increasing dmg not just the chance. This aligns with Healers not being able to obtain DH materia from spiritbond (Tanks can extract DH wth) and Support relics not having DH. Edit: spelling
Interesting solution! Personally, as Tenacity and Piety wouldn't compete with Direct Hit in this situation, I think the bigger concern is that Tenacity/Piety would just turn into better Determination, even if it is Direct Hit they offer!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh isn't that already happening? WHM as an example my prog set (crafted pentameld) had 0 DET and A LOT of DH. WHM 727 BiS (funny gloves and boots) again has 0 DET and A LOT of DH My thought process when no Balance BiS is up is: does it have piety? Ignore it. Then just CRT>DH>DET The only balance math can mess with this is sps tiers...
That is not because direct hit is better determination, but rather because direct hit is just about equal with determination, and as I explained in the video, having more of the one you have less of is more impactful. It is of course, with proper balancing, possible determination will simply be kept close to tenacity / piety, due to how these things stack as well 😊
that doesn't really solve anything, the issue isn't that Tenacity isn't good enough, its that Crit/DH/Ten/Det all serve the complete same purpose of increasing your damage, and one of them is the best meaning you never need to look at the others. At least for SkS, you used to be able to generally build SkS for some confort, but this also is getting less and less of an actual viable thing to do due to increasing amount of Cooldown Skills. The more Cooldown, the less SkS/SpS become preferable. I an ideal world, SkS/SpS would increase the damage you do linearly but this isn't the case (due to cooldowns). Therefore, you usually end up just getting enough SkS/SpS to get the correct line up for the rotation + extra GCD in the buff window and you do not get anymore. Piety giving mana regen also wouldn't help like Tenaicty due to you playing correctly making the stat worthless. Tenacity getting a buff to giving you 30% more EHP would still not solve the issue, as you can see what happend during 4.0 patches (If you aren't aware, Most Tanks used melee STR accessories instead of Tank Accessories due to it doing more damage). Honestly the only solution is to get rid of Crit/DH, make SkS/SpS scale more linearly by effecting cooldowns, change how buff stacking works (so you arent forced to align buffs), stop worrying about correctly balancing the jobs with each other so much, and make the bosses easier and jobs harder (putting the weight of the difficulty from "doing the mechanics correctly" to more "playing your job correctly").
I don't agree with the statement that Tenacity cannot be made as good as the other stats in terms of damage output. In fact, there is literally no reason that the devs couldn't do this. Your only reason for why they can't is because then it becomes an autopick over any stats that it beats. But why is that any worse than crit being an autopick over everything that we've been doing for the past decade? The issue with tenacity is that the devs want tenacity to represent a tradeoff of damage for defense, but that's not a trade that anyone really wants to make. They know that damage always wins in these types of choices. Tank stance dancing, cleric stance, enmity combos, vitality jewelry/melds, *parry rating* and probably other things I've overlooked were all examples of features of the game that let players choose between doing more damage and something else, and more damage always won. And all of them were removed because players always picked more damage unless forced to do otherwise. Tenacity itself only exists for this exact reason, because players refused to take a stat that offered no damage whatsoever. The other issue with tenacity is that the defensive benefits will pretty much always be meaningless. Like let's assume that tenacity was good enough that a significant portion of the tank playerbase decided to stack it for that 21.5% passive damage reduction. If that's what players are doing, then that's what bosses are going to be designed around. Tanks won't take any less damage than they currently do because bosses will just be made to hit harder so that they put the same amount of pressure on tanks and healers. At most, it would just punish the tanks that don't stack tenacity. Personally, what I would do with tenacity is increase its damage scaling to be equal to, or maybe slightly better than, det. But I would also remove the increased healing effect of tenacity. That way det has increased healing done while ten has reduced damage taken, just so that ten doesn't become det+. Even if tanks end up always taking ten over det, it wouldn't really change much as it would still only be our 3rd best stat. We'd still be making gear choices based on what gives more crit, and almost never meld it. I could even get behind the idea of buffing ten so that it's better than dh since it actually appears on our gear, also it would just make sense for the tank-only stat to be at least somewhat attractive to tanks.
I think it would actually be better to make DH not work on tank/healer. Only tanks get Ten, only healers get Pie and then only dps get DH. Making Ten the third stat to hit break points in for tanks, no matter if they buffed it to be closer or not. Same with Pie on healer, but they would have to buff it to give similar damage as det.
So really, the only stat a tank desperately wants to avoid (once you've hit a comfort tier) is skill speed now and avoided like the plague if you want an omni-tank set?
For someone who likes to tank non-savage, non-ultimate content, Tenacity is perfectly fine or even optimal. In content where 1% more groupwide damage really matters to the outcome, and execution of mechanics needs to be nearly perfect, it makes sense to ignore 5% more mitigation to get 2% more danage.
gdi the more I watch the video the more I realize you're about to say something I was just typing the main issue will always be that a dead enemy cant deal damage, so having more dps yourself will almost always be more desirable that's reflected in the materia prices, I'm from Midgardsormr and crit sells for 10k, det sells for 14k, DH sells for also 10k and then piety and tenacity are down to 300. even speed is usually a few k
Indeed! I've also previously suggested that more damage reducing the amount of mechanics, reduces the chance for your team (who you can't necessarily trust to do mechanics right) will fail mechanics. Tenacity only helps yourself (or help healers help you by you needing less healing) which ultimately doesn't help if the group is the problem right? 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh exactly! tenacity would make stabilizing a bad pull easier, but in my experience it's rare that a tank dies to something thats survivable(without an invuln) and we don't wipe right after(either from calling it or just cascade effect) even then, I can see a use case if you got a weaker healer on your static and you're MT, at least it'll add some consistency to pulls(if they don't have to constantly look at your hp they'd be able to divert attention to the rest o the group)
Would you consider melding tenacity on your own gear or choosing a piece of gear because it has higher tenacity on it for progression purposes? I am curious if this is something you’d consider doing in your own progression, given that you are tanking savage.
For prog it's kinda pointless too, because you should be learning how to mit the fight as more dr is unnecessary, and can be cleared with min ilvl. Anything that the fight wants you to die on, you will die on no matter what. More damage is infinitely more helpful than more defense
I do not plan to meld tenacity no, however knowing how much damage reduction it provides at least makes me feel better about some pieces that just happen to have tenacity on it anyway 😊 Tenacity also looks a lot more interesting from the perspective of soloing things (although mainly in the lens of pushing something unsynced perhaps!) 😂
So I have a question. If I meld crit and det, and my self healing lets my healers take a break and do damage instead, is that a gain in team damage versus me melding direct hit and just increasing my damage?
There is no such option no, and the uniqueness of equipment actually pretty much enforces almost the exact opposite! You're right, if it wasn't so costly to TRY some tenacity, players might be more likely to try it in niche situations!
IMO its a fair filler. On my mixed gear set (710+720 stuff) especially for my WAR, after maxing out Crit and Det, filling the rest of pentamelds with tenacity is pretty decent. ONLY looking on damage, on a tank who makes FULL use of DH its a ~difference of augmenting one gear piece difference in damage (disregarding other bonuses like HP). And yes I agree tenacity is far from being in the end of tier BIS set, but it can be good enough for prog/start especially considering it cost saved me more than 90% of gill I would have needed if I would have went for DH for example
While I understand the logic behind tenacity as a learning tool for new tanks because the dps check is so low this tier, it needs to be said that tank damage is also not particularly high this time around. There's more auto attacks, sure, but all tank busters are over 2 minutes apart allowing 40% mit to be up on all of them even if you aren't invulning, *and* deal kind of a pathetic amount of damage compared to the last two tiers. This kinda leaves rampart as the obvious solution to all those auto attack sequences, especially with the healing buff it got. I could see more value in Tenacity as training wheels in theoretical raid tier that had the tank damage of Abyssos combined with the lenient dps checks of Light-heavyweight.
I don't think it's fair for us to make an assessment right now when all the tanks can nigh infinitely heal themselves. Once tank healing gets nerfed into the ground as it should, having 20% mit perpetually will be huge sustain. Something else for viewers to note is that the % difference is less in practice. Ten may be X% worse *per value* but in reality your damage difference is going to be smaller because you have the base 100% of your original damage you're doing and the substat values are small modifiers. In the example given, 10.6ten/13.2det is about -20%, but 110.6/113.2 is about -2.3% difference. That's still a decent margin but that example was only the 3058 crit you had, not accounting for the 4559 other substats diminishing the actual DPS difference between the two. That's when you really start to see how big of a change it is. Tenacity is like 1.5% less damage for 20% mit. If you inverse that, not maxing Ten is choosing to take 25% more damage for 2% more damage. Yet the answer is still "You don't need that mit and faster kills are more important." Part of this problem is that raids are the only content we got. If we got content where sustain was more important, then Ten's value would skyrocket. But most content where it is more important has set static stats (deep dungeons, bozja). Although, now I am very curious about how good Ten is in Eureka at the moment... The other aspect is that tanks have ridiculous self healing that makes it so that oftentimes healers don't have to do anything. Hopefully this gets fixed but judging based on the fact that the community is outraged that DRK has a reasonable amount of sustain instead of being overpowered like the other tanks, I genuinely don't know. If we get content that emphasizes the importance of sustain, then likely the value would go up. If they also made it so that tanks are no longer blue healers, the importance of mit skyrockets. There's a lot of potential and it's hard to say for certain right now if it will stay obsolete. In my opinion, the gap between Det and Ten is still too low. So many people are numbers chasers. It could be .5% and some people would forgo the 20% mit. I really want "Det over Ten" to be the gearing equivalent of standing in vuln stacks for uptime. I think Ten should be the expected gear and Det should be reserved for "shiny number" hunting, ideally. That would be the best way for both to have a purpose. There is absolutely a breaking point where it becomes more valuable to have that huge mit over a tiny DPS increase and people are smart enough to see that and adjust. The changes are so close but not quite there yet for the current content we have.
I have no real data on it, but I farmed out a full tenacity-det set for PLD for MINE savage Nael and it feels impactful, since she likes to do lots of damage and very frequently, especially later on when stuff overlap, and potency creep more than makes up for that tiny bit of lost damage imo. On that note, you can do some funny stuff with PLD, since weapons before stormblood still have wacky attackspeeds, so you can grab a 1.92 weapon for it and generate Sheltrons faster, instead of the now default 2.14 speed
As someone who just plays tank for fun, I just put max tenacity into all my tanks, it feels really nice to barely take any damage and when playing tank I don't really care whether a boss dies 4% faster. I think a good idea to buff tenacity beyond this point is to simply have it buff certain defensive effects of skills. Just to give PLD and DRK as examples: - PLD : --- Increase the HP buffer from Divine Veil (if TEN gives 20% dmg reduction, have Divine Veil then also give the shield effect a +20% hp increase) --- Increase the rate of us gaining Oath Gauge depending on TEN --- TEN improves shield potency of Guardian and duration/potency of Holy Shelltron's healing effect - DRK : --- Increase healing potency of Shadowed Vigil depending on TEN --- TEN adds a health recovery bonus when dealing damage by consuming Dark Arts --- TEN adds a health recovery bonus when dealing damage with Blood Weapon/Delirium active
First off) While we are still talking about Tenacity; Is Skill Speed still better than Tenacity...? Second) Here's my hot take on Tenacity; Dark Knight needs it because Dark Knight has sucked keeping itself alive ever since the Shadowbringers re-work. And before people say "bUt ThE bLaCkEsT nIgHt Is StIlL pReTtY gOoD!" let me remind that The Blackest Night cost 3k MP, that you could have used for more Damage, and before anyone says "bUt ThAt'S wHaT dArK aRtS iS fOr!" I also need to remind you that you can ONLY get Dark Arts IF the shield breaks, not WHEN, and you have NO OTHER WAY of getting Dark Arts. Change my mind.
While the damage loss is bad, I can imagine how happy it would make healers in dungeons when using cooldowns properly on top of it, and isn't making healers happy worth it in the end?
Imo they just make Tenacity do something other than damage reduction like a passive regen rate or duration of mitigative abilities extended so I can have 12-15 secs of invuln that would be worth taking.
It's 02:14am I'm drunk I've bought an alt set of gear and (penta)melded tenacity Healer loved it Got 3 comms Didn't lose much dmg Tender Valley TENACITY IS THE NEW CRIT - TANKS, MELD TENACITY TODAY! INCREASE HEALER DPS! HEALERS NEED *YOU*
I just use whatever the highest Ilvl gear I have is (rarely even meld materia). Do stats make enough of a difference that it really matters outside of ultimates?
Tenacity was never bad, the meta was just maximum damage done = better, and it was the healers' job to deal with the consequence. Even in the initial question an equal amount of tenacity resulted in a total 12*3=36% advantage compared to 16.7*2=33.4% advantage for determination. So unless you valued one of the components of tenacity at less than that of determination tenacity granted greater total advantage. Tenacity was bad because the meta was to take advantage of your healers. The less prepared you are to do that the better tenacity gets.
I tried Tenacity one week for my weekly Savage (1-3) runs and I didn't notice a big difference without hard data. I checked FFLogs my party uploaded, and my parse was similar to other weeks (making me think I performed my rotation better to achieve the same damage with this weaker materia). I BARELY noticed a small difference in damage reduction. I DID feel like healers' spells were hitting me harder though.
I know what could be added to Tenacity to make it "good". A "guts" mechanic. A chance to survive on exactly 1 HP if you would have died, if you have enough tenacity (defined as a % chance based on a comparison of the damage you took and your tenacity stat, with some scaling involved).
A lot of the problem with DR is when you have enough to survive, as well as an answer for something, it loses value. A majority of the questions will be "did you end up on the floor?" if the answer is no, then doing more damage is always going to be more valuable due to boss dying faster = less chance for the boss to kill you with something. This is often why damage reductions fall into two categories. Absolutely useless, or absolutely necessary. There really is no in between with it. Even if you factor in the cost of a healer being forced to heal, due to, say, it being mechanically required, as long as you have enough to survive, more becomes fluff and loses value in terms of damage. Damage being useful 95% of the time since a boss dying faster means less chances for them to kill you. Tenacity as a stat just needs to be removed. There isn't really a world in which they can rework it to make it more valuable than direct hit (tanks can't get direct hit) or crit (warrior specifically gains a bigger bonus from it), or determination.
There are three purposes that defensive stats serve in MMORPGS that aren't really a thing in FFXIV, the first is to make you survive the damage spikes the game throws at you in the first place, and the second (once you've hit the survival threshold) is to slow incoming damage down and give your healer a bit more of a cushion to react and third is just to save on healer resources. The first one is irrelevant because FFXIV doesn't place stats and gear hunting front and center like many others do. All content is balanced to be doable with pretty much any gear of a sufficient ilvl, so even the gear with the minimum amount of tenacity will still be enough to survive. The second irrelevant is because FFXIV fights are strongly regemented and most high-damage moves have long tells, so healers will generally know what's coming several seconds in advance, so they do not need any extra help to react in time. There just isn't much random unexpected damage spikes to react to, not to mention that most healing is off the global cooldown and thus can be used as fast as the player can react. Stopcasting big slow heals to increase the chance of responding in time between a spike and when the tank would die isn't a thing here. And thirdly healers rarely if ever run out of resources in FFXIV. They might temporarily run out of cooldowns and have to rely on GCD heals, but running out of both CDs and mana is incredibly rare unless several mistakes happen in short succession. Additionally it often isn't the tank dying to damage that leads to a wipe, it's someone messing up a punishing mechanic. So when your survival is all but guranteed in dps oriented gear, leaning into it to make the fight go faster is means there's ever so slightly less chances for someone to mess up (with the time save as a nice bonus). It's usefulness is likely higher in solo play, because the third point becomes relevant when you don't have a dedicated healer. When you only have the much more limited healing of a tank kit, an extra 10% damage reduction is much more likely to have an impact in making sure you don't run out
Tank skills offer more than enough damage reduction not to mention the upgraded skills 90-100 which basically means you never fall below 50% HP and have dmg reduction at the same time........they're going to need to buff Tenacity by a lot to make it worth using on tanks. The tool tip just makes it sound nice. When in reality it's a shambles. I maybe a casual in the grander scheme of things. But if they're going to make Tenacity worth it for tanks. Buff it so it matters. Otherwise Crit , Direct hit will always be the go to option.
I have this mixed relationship as well with Tenacity I would appreciate receiving it through a bonus like through food or its inbuild in your gear however, I'm not too fond of the idea of melding Tenacity In none hardcore content I have a mixed feeling as well with Tenacity I personally prefer damage and healing over Damage reduction but having the Tenacity does help in the wall-to-wall pull phase and makes you rely less on others for healing then when your GNB or PLD it offers more room for you to cover or heal your healers which is often needed in DT because of AOE and higher difficulty for healers and casters when roaming in the world doing fates and hunts Tenacity is then my absolute least favorite of the tank stats but if you are in the level grind stage for your tank and will only use tomes sets between the 10 levels then using tenacity will help to push through the levels However, I don't prefer not doing this and instead going for damage and upgrading my gear every +/- 5 levels
The problem is for more casual raiding teams is that once they get to a fight, they can literally go to fflogs and just copy a mitigation plan from other groups that have the same comp and still go with max damage. "Figuring out when to use defensives" simply doesnt exist outside of blind raiding which is mostly done by week 1 raiders anyway.
Things I learned today cause I never really properly read the stat... Tenacity increases the damage and healing. Huh. Main tanking Savages through EW and DT now on two characters with GNB, and never knew. I'm not a min-maxer type anyhow. I just go for what is typically simple in my mind with stats, so I throw crit on when I can, DH where crit cannot, with minor exceptions for the DH of some sksp materia so food puts me at 2.44 GCD. I used to stick to the full 2.5, but the tome weapon that had a LOT of SkSp. in EW got me used to the faster timings and I fell in love with it. Though I am really aware of how much the bosses may actually hurt with autos at times, but it just made me actually use defensives for something OTHER than a TB. For the majority of EW, the chunk damage was so minimal that I literally just never bothered to personal mit except for TBs a lot. Exceptions if I saw a mistake and had to put extra out to cover it. Abyssos actually got me really into the habit of over-mitting the TBs cause of the constant dots. Something I never stopped doing since. Only difference is now I will use my short during auto phases, and will actually use Camouflage as well to help the healers not need to baby me. And if I am OT, HoC goes onto the MT during those phases as well.
Hmmm. I never put DH on my tank's since those stats are the lowest, like 300-500 range. i aint about to waste my meld on it. i just meld more crit and detrm... but i am not a raider or anything just normal stuff to ex stuff and never had problems with dmg. So i wonder if DH would help at all? I do the same on my healers.
I honestly wish more was done to maybe encourage the use of Ten, Pie, Sps, Sks... Otherwise it feels like, if you play Healer/Tank, any time you "extract materia" it's always a game of "Is it useful". The fact ten gives more damage reduction is nice, but tanks won't care - we've damage pilled ourselves to the point it's becoming problematic - People have complained that they've homogenised the jobs; while simultaneously homogenising the stat priority for every single job, "Meld to preferred gcd, then crit
Ever since I saw a tank with full-melded Parry materias (back when those were still a thing!) For The Bit, and once Tenacity replaced Parry, I've become a full-on Tenacity pervert. Full Tenacity melds on all of my tanks. I... don't do savage content on my tanks, but still. Makes me giggle when I upgrade my tank gear.
tbh, as a tank main, i think they should just make TEN tank DET, there should be no gear i would avoid using because it theoretically gives me more defense; and by "Make TEN tank DET" i mean, make TEN scale exactly like DET, (keeping the Defense changes how they are), and replace all DET on tank gear with TEN, it might not be a perfect solution, but i think it would be a lot better than how it is now, with tanks currently having 2 stats they'd want to avoid if they want maximum damage, instead of just SKS. Or as someone else in the comments put it, Make it innate on all tank gear, that could potentially also work.
Honestly I wish they'd either commit to tenacity and piety and have those basically be determination for those roles (like, go so far as to get rid of DET on their gear and make DET do fuck all for them) or just get rid of them already.
Find it a shame, that as a stat that - according to the description - only affects tanks they still won't buff this to make it more in line with Det to be more enticing. Situationally, yes it is, but ideally it still isn't over other meld options where you won't be level synced. Wouldn't necessarily break the game since, again, only tanks are supposed to gain from tenacity stat, but that would make too much sense I guess.
Unfortunately I'm too smoothbrain to do much with my melding besides "get as much crit as I can and put the remaining slots on a secondary stat" and if doing that for tenacity isn't helpful enough, direct hit it will continue to be, because things dying faster in farming content is very good
5:51 thats the reason why i use Rampart or Bulwark on PLD in M2S almost everytime in "Autoattack Phases" Guardian + Holy Sheltron (when you dont use it to early for the shortbuff) is enough to survive the Tankbuster without dropping to hard in LP
the issue is, the damage up simply doesn't outweigh the power Tanks already have. as a PLD, I got a lot of holy shelltrons I can throw out for auto's and in general, you want your heavy CD for tank busters (since 300k unmittigated damage is quite a bit) this leaves Rampart as your always safe bet, just toss a Rampart in at times to reduce the auto's you're taking, especially wicked thunder's auto's who do unmittigated around 60k damage, toss a Rampart into there and that's already 20% mitigated for 20 orso seconds on top of receiving more heals. toss a random short CD in there as well (bloodwhetting etc) inbetween TB's and you'll be fine. in M1 to M3S, auto attacks are way less impactful, it only really ramps up for M4S, and even then, it only really matters for week 1-3 or maybe 1-4, after you got some gear, even M4S doesn't deal that much damage anymore. We honestly still have too many different stats, since DET is just a better TEN since it gets rid of the damage reduction and boosts damage and healing a bit. Crit is just a staple of RPGs and then we got ... direct hit, why do we even have 2 critical hit stats? Yoshi complained about damage variance last expansion, all the fucking time, yet we have 2 crits in the game, the difference between me not critting, not DHCrit and getting them is massive. with Confiteor with a normal attack is 50-60k, with crit it's around 90k and with DH crit it's easily 100-110k ... nearly double if I get it, create mechanic btw lol. Honestly, get rid of TEN and DH, sure you would only have 2 paths forward, but it'll streamline the game a lot more since right now you got the illusion of choice, where you'll basically avoid TEN at all cost, DH is just Crit but another name (aka just a bad experience) and well, SKS is there for convenience, since if you play PLD and any other tank, you'll just go for no SKS since 2.5 is the only viable PLD out there, otherwise you'll always drift your CD and quite a bit at that. (over the course of a fight you nearly drift your OGCDs so hard they come back off CD)
Det becoming "discount tenacity" is fine though... think less discount Tenacity and more "Det for Tanks". Or even easier... gives all tanks a trait at 50 or something that just says "the effects of Tenacity are more effectice" so only tanks have it even out. Edit: also, I really don't think every job every tier should get optimal gear sets... like sometimes you should just have to adjust your play and eat the L from being unable to avoid certain stats.
I just realised that tenacity is most powerful on darkknight.... F also I still need to lvl that one to 100. Might just get some more tenacity to make it easier
What I'm hearing is "Long story short, off-tank should just give you their 25s mit as often as possible, whenever they don't need it" lol, tenacity will always be somewhat useless, as with more tank proficiency, you learn to juggle your mits better. Numbers seem good on paper, but what hits the boss can't give you is a better mitigation than taking longer to kill the boss.
If they want tenacity to be used, it should be buffed so the damage bonus is at least the same as Det. Maybe make the damage the same while the healing buff is lower then Det. Another way it could be used is making DH a dps only stat like tenacity is for tanks and piety is for healers. Then tenacity is at least the third stat to prio for dps tanks though im sure this would include a crazy amout of work behind the scenes to maintain balance.
5:45 Yes! This is why I decided to try out Tenacity materia, and I think healers get distracted by mechanics and forget how heavy the auto-attacks can be.
I think it's worth emphasizing that if you are going to experiment with different melds and using tenacity, it is still *never* correct to replace your crit melds. You lose a lot more by replacing crit melds than you do by replacing direct hit or determination.
I use tenacity and potions when leveling the first 30 levels on a tank, no one is telling me i'm not doing wall to wall pulls. Otherwise is completely useless, same as piety
I actually made exactly such a video back in endwalker, and not much has changed for the stat since dawntrail (in fact, the additions to two minute bursts probably made things a bit worse!) Here is a link to that video if you are curious! ua-cam.com/video/tQrelqlaIn0/v-deo.html There is also a Playlist on the channel talking about the various stats! 😊
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh I watched that one on release! I was thinking more like a comparison style video like the ones you did here, such as "2000 of X stat equals +X DPS, while 2000 of Y stat equals +Y DPS, therefore, X stat is overall better". However, due to the way SkS works differently for every single job, calculating exactly how much extra DPS it is giving you sounds almost impossible. Loved this video btw. Cheers!
@Fain255 oooh like that! Yeah speed would be basically impossible to compare properly without going into every single job and it would probably be very overwhelming 😅 thank you for the suggestion though! And that's amazing, it's been quite a bit since I made that one! 😄
So, question. I’ve been doing this savage tier and extremes with full direct hit melds on my tanks. Should I add crit instead if the piece can take it. I think my current stat spread is like 2400 crit, 2100 determination, and 1600 direct hit.
It's a bit complicated. Crit beats direct hit if you have over a certain threshold in crit to begin with. This usually comes about more naturally after the first raid tier, and in the first raid tier specifically it is somewhat likely you would prefer direct hit if your gear isn't majority crit already 🤔 your current setup is probably fine!
I've tanked through ShB and EW savages and have noticed the significant increase of auto attack damage this tier. I actually found myself planning my defensive cool downs around heavy movement segments where I'm still getting auto attacked to death. Personally i'm a fan of this as its less sitting on defensive CD's that you're otherwise just saving for a TB and more of where can I use these CDs to help out my healers the most. Honestly i would prefer tenacity to be stronger than determination (i wish it was the strongest stat) as it's a tank only stat, while determination is used for every job so it would still be valuable to everyone else.
I like your spirit and realisation about the mits, but you should have been cycling mits no matter what, cause everything autos, and they all hurt, don't sit on mits just waiting for a tb. I know it seems like a tiny amount, but every bit of damage saved is more time the healers can spend attacking
I feel like the mindset is if you kill something faster, the difference in clear time potentially is better in "reducing damage" than just taking longer fights with perma damage reduction. Plus, that damage reduction only applies to you. By clearing the fight faster, everyone else in the party takes less damage too
Exactly, and this is also the kinds of reasons why it only makes sense at all to reduce the damage on yourself if it actually would make a substantial difference, which rarely comes up! 😅
you gotta love how ff14 is just an all dps game. you'd think the devs would have figured this out by now. I have always said that if you need your tanks and healers to be the extra dps that saves your raid, you're not good raiders and need more practice. and i stand by that.
i'm a paladin tenacity (Ur Ru) since i'm a real sprout i unlocked some some savage and the dungeon equivalent . But i would need to test in arr first .coil of bahamut but nobody ever do those . But up to hard . Tenacity is more forgiving .less button mashing festival
Don't bother queuing for Coils, legitimately nobody does those because they aren't really balanced for casual play, and don't appear in the roulettes. You likely won't be able to test the effectiveness of meteria until you get to modern content, because ilvl syncing removes the effect of materia, and you will almost certainly be ilvl synced in most duties at this point. Also tenacity sucks lol meld crit
I'd like to know the gap between war and other tanks, bcs war has auto dh on burst while others haven't. Would this change something in point of tenacity?
The primary change is that warrior scales better with direct hit than the other tanks by a bit. The fact warrior does so much healing also makes crit and determination look better, so overall warrior would probably be the one among the tanks that would be most negatively affected on output by taking tenacity. 🤔 Although this is just a guess on my part!
The hats in Strayborough are free. You can take as many as you like.
I have 87 hats in my glam dresser.
So just use crit materia on my tank as a casual and learn to use my defensive cooldowns correctly seems to be the right way to do things
Yeah that sounds like a good call 😊
You generally want more direct hit than crit melds because almost all of your gear should be crit/det with some tenacity gear if it will help you hit the next breakpoint and end up being a gain over crit/det.
@mosley3485 It sort of depends: If you have full crit on a piece anyway, then direct hit is the best you can do for damage. But it is usually only really the case that Direct Hit beats over Crit in general in the first raid tier.
From a Casual point of view, which Rambo mentioned, it is unlikely they have very much control over whether there IS crit/det or Crit/Ten on their gear at all, since they will be at the mercy of whatever is on crafted gear or tomestone gear, so that also matters!
Have to agree here for a couple of reasons. Usually, casual tank players are more likely to end up in level/ilvl synced situations where having 'ideal melds' effectively becomes pointless because...all materia melds become disabled when synced.
For a casual to semi-endgame you might want to idealize your melds depending on the comfort level of your playing ability, but in most cases Crit to as close to cap and adjusting to other break points of other stats will be the usual go to, or simply stated Crit/det melding as a casual player isn't bad and is more likely what most will do.
You meld crit where you can. Direct hit on where you can't. But yes generally you are correct
Solo players know tenacity is the goat.
Not really, even expert dungeons can easily be completed solo after a lot of time with no tenacity on most tanks. Not sure what content you feel like that damage reduction is necessary.
@@AltinaXIV not all content. Just watch some of the solo youtubers. 👌
Piety has been in a similar situation for a while on healers. I think it's a situation where when everyone is playing as close to optimally as possible just relying on cooldowns for for damage reduction and mp restoration is more than enough. Those stats definitely have more value for casual players but I still believe ten and pie should just be innate on gear in the way strength or mind are. Even casual players gear themselves like savage raiders because sites like the balance or icy veins are the first things that come up on search engines if you look for job advice.
Very true. There is also the part that the kind of content a casual player would be doing is so much lower in difficulty that even if they could benefit from the stats, they hardly need the extra help either!
Personally, I feel that at this point, most of the stats sort of merge together to be the same, since Crit, Direct Hit and Determination ultimately all say "Damage number bigger!" it could be argued that just like Tenacity and Piety could be baked into gear innately... All stats mostly could when we really think about it! (With the exception of speed I guess?)
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Yeah, speed is I think the stat that makes the most sense to be customizable. Different speed tiers have different value for different jobs or scenarios. The rest is like you say just more damage and or healing with linear progression.
Piety's interesting to me since it has an extremely sharp breakpoint on it's usefulness. It's THE most important stat on healers up to the point where you have enough that you no longer run out of MP on a fight, after which it becomes literally useless. That break point of course is affected by your usual play environment and personal ability - a PF warrior who forgets to use Lucid half the time will probably want more piety vs a speedclear addict, as extreme examples.
Piety has a conundrum of being a binary stat
If you run out of mp then the piety value skyrocket but if not it became a useless stat
But with Tenacity at least you still get that value most of the time since it’s just more dmg done + less dmg taken
Actually, Tenacity increases overall Party DPS, since Healers have to spend less time Healing you and can spend more time DPS'ing!
... Is what I would have said, if Healers ever had to use their GCD Healing skills. Which, to be fair, happens a little bit in Dawntrail content nowadays. Just not really in the *Tank's* direction.
Can you imagine, though? A game where you'd minmax to such a degree. 😅
When i learn to switch from foe to allies , healer will indeed be bored with a tenacity paladin tank
Even if there was large amount of GCD healing required, tenacity as is likely wouldn't make enough difference to make it worth damagewise. Changing it to affecting all incoming healing (from self or others) would make it potentially valuable for fights where healers are expected to GCD heal a tank a lot (which also we don't really have) - damage loss compared to crit would be less than party damage loss from healing GCDs. Which would also be amazing to see - forcing someone to sacrifice their personal dps but letting players to figure out how to handle it.
Oh look, it's the normal mode raid footage!
Tadaaaa!
What I'm hearing is it's basically like GCD Speed. Unless you have a specific breakpoint you're aiming for to solve a specific problem, it's _still_ not worth the opportunity cost. Which is an improvement over it being pretty much useless, I guess!
Yep, that's a pretty good summary 😊
It is however a shame that it is still reaching for a common purpose that is more often wanted! 😊😅
I like my 2.45/2.44 gcd too much to not try for it. Of course, I don't worry about spell speed on PLD since that has to be all melds.
Short answer: no
Long answer: noooooo
420 blaze it base amount, lol
I saw a penta tenacity melded tank this tier. No idea how well he did
Well they probably didn't take as much damage! 🤣
@@CaetsuChaijiCh wouldn't need to if that tank learned how to play properly xD
i feel like it was more of a gil-issue... tenacity is cheapAF since it sux. And ANY* meld is better then no meld.
(Any* = a meld that is actually useful for the current class... using piety on a dps/tank would just be dumb)
@@andrewdesalvatore7262 that, and also the fact that you're spiritbonding faster when its overmelded. So you get the chance to actually get the materia you want.
Kinda cool how this video demonstrates why det is better than a balanced det/dh for healers in prog.
If you balance det/dh, you get a whole 0.17% increase to your dps, at the cost of 5% of your healing output.
As a healer you do less than 8% of the boss's HP, so this translates to like 0.01% of the boss's hp.
Taken another way, if the lesser healing causes you to do a singular additional GCD heal over the entire fight then you lost dps due to your melds. If you're a scholar and you needed to use two additional aetherflow heals over the whole fight, you lost dps due to your melds
An interesting point! And indeed something I realized very shortly before making this video from a discussion with a black mage main no less! 😂
@@CaetsuChaijiCh pretty sure auto attacks on SCH do like several times the difference
Gj
@@Pandaxtor usually dow goes with dow , dom goes with dom . Paladin are an exception . I'm just not sure if its . Paladin healing healer to steal healer agro . Remember paladin are tank not dps
i'm just a sprout but if paladin are dps . It's the most useless class . I am paladin . But if my job is to manage agro , meaning stealing agro via giving heal and me receiving heal . I bet i agro like a maniac wich i can give to the other tank . Etc . This make more sense tank job wise . I bet each tank class is quasi similar . Dps can not dps too much agro, healer cant heal too much agro , if i'm right ? Playing paladin is hard
any stat that does not increase damage needs to perform 3 times better to even be considered.
It's got to save enough healing GCDs to be an overall damage gain, or alternatively you just won't have enough mitigation to survive every hit without the extra sturdiness.
So considering how little healers need to use their GCD heals, and how much mitigation every class has, I'd say it's going to stay useless for a long time.
Honestly, the best way to make both ten and piety more viable is to have bosses do even more damage on autos, and have more frequent aoes.
Just make boss do unavoidable slowdown stackable . Grin
would be nicer if piety was like a 50%determination too.
@@andrewdesalvatore7262 no . Healer need mana and heal . Maybe put it as a ratio in percentage
@@user-eg2oe7pv2i i mean, keep it the same way that piety is now; but ALSO give it some dmg/heal+ too (about 50% as potent as determination).
Soooo when you're forced to use piety in a max-ilvl gear-set it at least contributes a lil bit to the highly coveted DPS+
I think a large part of the problem is gow unbalanced 14s stats are in general. Crit will always outscale anything else no matter the job making stats really imbalanced, espically in compairson to other mmos, espically wow. In short...sqe rework the stat system
It is certainly in an awkward spot where it feels sort of pointless!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh its tailored for random sprout group it would seem
It's not just crit that is the problem. The problem is mainly that no matter what, as long as one stat is the best to speed up the fight, no matter whether it's crit or DH or DET, people will use only that stat while ignoring the rest. In order to make all stats viable, the game would need bosses with attribute variations, for example some bosses with a very high crit reduction, making it very unlikely to deal critical hits, while others have very low crit protection but high direct hit protection. Of course, that wouldn't work because people would complain that they'd have to resocket Materia for every fight to have an oPtImAl PaRsE.
@@kyoai that's EXTREMELY unrealistic of any game tbh. I do agree it's not just crit, but I think the better move is to make all the stats aligned more in value so classes can naturally gravitate towards what their kit needs more.
@@kyoai They would complain they would have to resocket materia/ carry different gearsets even if they werent going for a parse, especially for overmelds. They will either ignore it and do less damage or complain that they have to swap constantly and it wouldn't solve anything, just make people angry. As long as a stat is tied to damage it will be better then the others. For there to be more viable and interesting stats none of them can be tied to damage.
it's been fine without tenacity in savage but i do keep the savage tenacity skewed chest piece in case that reduction will be handy in FRU or alliance savage that are coming.
Who knows, maybe that tenacity diff will be a relevant break point for some mechanic
I feel like anything that extra dr on top of BiS can do will end up being a cheese strat that can be done better another way though
Instructions unclear, I've maxed out Tenacity and now run level 100 dungeons solo. Who needs healers or dps allies???
You know, the saddest part is that tenacity isn't even needed for that 🤣🤣🤣
(yes, you can solo all three max level dungeons without tenacity! 😂😭)
@@CaetsuChaijiCh 😭😭😭
WAR could probably do it the easiest. Bloodwhetting is just that good.
IMO, Tenacity is fine. It's just fine, and it was just fine in Endwalker too. It fills two specific niches: allowing people to control their SkS without dropping item level, and allowing less-experienced players to have an option for increased defenses. It's not like Piety where it's useless enough for damage that you want to get rid of it at any cost, including dropping item level, but it's not so good that it obsoletes Determination. In terms of its pure contribution to your damage, it's not good. But the important thing is that it's good *enough* that you can settle for it if it means avoiding SkS that would put you at a GCD you don't want.
The developers can benefit from playing Guild Wars 2. They are the king of horizontal progression in an MMO and may be able to convert some ideas to the materia.
i miss gw1 mesmer
That game has no progression. Thats not horizontal progression. You get the legedary gear set and that's it lol
This is sooop true
@@xL0stKIlahGuild wars has way more build variety in 2 classes than the whole ff14 job system has in all his jobs combined.
This is sad and awesome at the same time.
@@esmolol4091 nah there's a meta and everyone just goes for the best build anyways
Tenacity is, and always will be, bad for the simple reason that it is *redundant*. There's too many sources of varying levels of damage reduction that are baked into the job design for the devs to be able to enforce an amount of passive defence. And without the passive defence it's just determination but worse.
IMO the substat system kinda doesn't work, but this is mostly because the fight design is DPS focused. There's really only two forms of skill expression in FFXIV fights. Doing damage, and standing in the correct spot, and that's it.
Be a rebel. Maximum potential Tenacity. Because in random, the healer is asleep and the grp wants wall to wall pulls.
Great, now they just got to figure out how to make piety better. And it is good to know l will have a permanent rampart now in wanderer's palace whenever l cheese it, lol
As a main tank. It's worthless, never use gear with Tenacity, and never meld it to your gear either.
Your gear should have Crit + Det, and you should meld Direct Hit, since we don't get DH naturally on our gear, or if you main GNB you can put some Skill Speed on your gear.
Tenacity is never going to outweigh the use of Crit, Det & DH.
Thats sort of the general idea yes, which is also why it is so hard to find an actual niche situation where Tenacity is helpful!
Sometimes, it's better to take a gear piece as a tank that has tenacity than skill speed. All of the tanks are really good at base skill speed, so avoiding it as an omni tank is more important than avoiding tenacity.
@@Jay-mx5ky Tbh also often is the gear reduced in.. "Where can i get the most CRT/DET and the right amount of SKS as Tank?" When you play for example PLD where 2.5 is "optimal" you will always pick a part with TEN for having the optional GCD..
How you play GNB depends how much SKS you have (Slowbreaker, Fastbreaker)
idk about that, brother. I've had Main tanks in PF that can't roll their mitigations at all to the point they end up dying to autos. I'd prefer if the people who refuse to learn mitigation management to just meld tenacity and eat their DPS loss to give everyone less of a headache. Of course they could just not participate in savage entirely but they do anyway.
The problem with this game's stats is that because it is such a dps centric encounter system, the only stats that are good are the stats that increase your dps the most, which happens to be Critical Hit for everyone and Direct Hit for tanks because it's a core dps stat that they're just missing from their gear for no reason. If tanks had a set direct hit rate that could not be increased or decreased, _then_ tenacity would be worth melding because it would need to be a stat to fill in some pieces of gear that are capped in det and crit after melds.
Ultimately though, the problem with TEN is that it doesn't belong in a meta that exclusively focuses on enrages because Yoshi P refuses to make the raid complexity anything more than that; if a tank is taking too much damage during raids, then it is a player skill issue that can easily fixed with some adjustments to defensive cooldowns and healer mit.
They won't improve healer playstyles and they won't increase raid damage output, so all we're left with is just building to kill the bosses as quickly as possible. It's a system that's functional but it has the depth of a puddle.
It's a shame too, because the fight design in this game is really fun. It's too bad that the gearing systems in XIV can't also be fun, for more reasons than just this one. (Why are we still unable to gear more than one class in an MMO that proudly boasts more than 1 playable class per character?)
Ive seen it a couple of times now so Im curious, what would they do instead of an enrage? At some point a fight has to let the dps know they failed their role. When tanks fail, you die, when healers fail, you die, so when the dps fail, you die. What would be put in the place of and enrage?
Great discussion video Cae! This reminds me of WoW's high-end where versatility does basically the same thing, but damage reduction is half the value of damage boost and it already gets to the point where classes with worse than average defensive tools might have to stack versatility just to live bleeding edge encounters. Let's just say people aren't too happy with that.
I doubt this would be a problem for FFXIV ever, mostly because the issue is primarily seen in highest level mythic plus keys, an infinitely scaling system.
Yeah that is indeed the thing!
If we had content like that, then tenacity being available for non tanks might have been interesting! 🤔😁
Thank you!
As a tank main, I'm still not taking enough damage for defensive stats to matter at all. Might as well go for more dps. One day, I hope se will make boss autos do substantially more damage to the point we have to actually consider boosting our defence, but I doubt they will change anything.
stop dodging slowdown .
If it gets to that point with boss autos or attacks in general you run the risk of creating a fight that cannot be won without deaths from the people who did not meld very specific things, because I assume you want them to kill more often than not, since getting low hp is not necessarily an issue most of the time during autos.
@shelflord1686 I want them to kill me if I run content without a healer. At the moment, on pld, I can run expert dungeons with 3 dps and keep them all alive myself. I believe some giga Chad's have even cleared M4S with no healers, too. I think tanks are currently too strong, and they make healers feel redundant.
In a game where damage dealt trumps all, it's hard to make "take less damage" appealing. The only way I see people considering it is if it's nearly impossible to survive without it. But then you get to the point where it feels necessary, which stifles player freedom.
Exactly. Because of optimization, aside from specific niches like individuals that need the assistance (meaning optimization goes out the window anyway), whatever is maximum damage is optimal once damage is survivable, which means whatever is required is mandatory, meaning no choice 😅
I'm still not sold on tenacity, but I can see the argument for an inexperienced tank getting into high end content for the first time. I definitely wouldn't recommend it longterm though.
On that we can agree! That would actually require something to... Well require it somehow! 😊
Simple rule of games is, if its possible to do something on a glass cannon build, then using a glass cannon build is meta. You build for bare minimum defense.
The only way they can make tenacity useful is if they make it required, which is probably more trouble than its worth.
Its like elemental resistance in vanilla WoW. You use as much as you need to be able to optimally clear content and no more. The only purpose it serves beyond that is as an extra grind, which I don't mind from an RPG point of view, but having to gear up to raid with other players causes more logistic problems than it grants immersion value.
Indeed!
The elemental resist example is excellent, as it perfectly portrays why tenacity is seen as so unhelpful!
Making tenacity required is pretty much old accuracy stat. And accuracy was hardly welcome in the community.
@@Jay-mx5ky WoW abandoned elemental resistance as well as far as I know.
GW2 actually did have defensive stats as viable for a while, not sure how it is now though. Essentially you could build healer that was full defense and healing (no DPS) and they essentially were able to negate the vast majority of raid mechanics so people could just ignore them and DPS. It wasn't optimal since people who knew how to do fights properly could spec full DPS and burn through them easily. However, people who didn't would wipe for hours, so being able to just brute force raids was extremely useful for pugs.
I was still raiding in WoW in DF and for Tanks the rule was literally "As long you dont REALLY need it, you use Damage Trinkets not Mit"
I play tank in mostly casual content and an additional 12% inherent damage reduction is so good that I just put as much tenacity on myself as I can. Especially right now when people are neither fully geared nor do they know the fights well enough to not get hit by things, putting extra strain on the healers. Healers whose quality also varies MASSIVELY, I don't need the extra damage especially for the content I am doing where just doing the rotation better can get you like 10-30% potency gains overall just by itself. I can't do my rotation when I am dead.
I'm maxing Ten on tank jobs mainly to annoy the tanks in my static, but I do think it's legitimately a good choice. To my mind the question is if you think a wipe to a
Why do I feel called out for stacking tenacity on my tank, in all seriousness though I do thank you for making feel a little less bad about it trying out savage for the first time, being able to make mistakes in prog vs my squishy healers where I misplace myself and I feel like I’m hurting the entire team more. Also thank you for the older guides on Paladin ran it up to 100 as my first tank and been enjoying a lot more after the initial anxiety passed, now doing dark knight grind Help:)
Please don't stack tenacity for the love of God lol, if you die in savage its because of mits, or mechs, or healers, and no amount of extra dr is worth killing the boss faster.
I'm glad you found them helpful!
I do recommend trying without tenacity at first and see how it goes, as you should be fine without stacking it! 😊
If you do hop into savage a tip I can give just to start for an example is that on the first boss in the current raid tier, you should be fine to use rampart pretty much whenever it is available while the tank chooses to do some auto attacks. Often what can really makes this damage overwhelming is if you feel like all of your cooldowns must be saved for tank busters, but knowing some of them are free out the gate can help! 😊
I kinda wish Tenacity materia did have an effect, if reduced, when synced down - I'd *love* to have a "make it easier for inexperienced healers" gear option, especially on my characters I don't tank challenging content on.
It is quite strange they decided to completely turn off materia when synced down. It would indeed add some more customization to the game in parts where that freedom is more helpful too
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It really wouldn't be too hard to scale the materia properly. I really don't know why they made it this way.
Just have the materia downgrade to the equivalent for that expansion. So Grade XII would become Grade VIII when synced to level 71-80.
I suspect one group is going to try tenacity on tank and/or off tank in the ultimate fight coming. That's the only place where it can really make a difference. It'll either help, or cripple them, and I can not make that call, not even as a gues.
Isn't that a problem with fight and class design rather than in the stats? Fights don't separate players since HW, so the extra mitigation never comes into play if your healer is gonna fix you up almost immediately, nor classes in general play off substats like one button or two scaling with how much Tenacity or Skill Speed the character has and make stats actually not feel boring, you can argue this one is gonna make stats too good, but at the same time the game would be balanced that in mind. Tenacity isn't bad on its own, but the game doesn't really create situations for it to shine.
An idea I've had to solve all of this is for SE to consolidate Det and Ten into a single stat, and then turn all Ten listings on tank gear into DH. I'm sure some folks might look at this and ask about the non-tanks suddenly having damage mitigation; and to that I say the mitigation needs to be tied to current armor rather than the damage being received. This means non-tanks might only see a hair's difference in survivability from Det, as opposed to tanks whose Det and higher armor stats would mean far greater gains in protection.
I doubt SE will go this route, much like I doubt they'll do away with Piety as a gear stat (instead baking it into healers at desired MP regen levels), but it's what I've been thinking since early ShB. This idea has not shaken in the slightest in the last five years.
Well the boots this tier are crit tenacity which have been very handy (won them week 1) until i get another twine for the aug tome boots
A solution I read a while ago and like:
Make Tenacity give DH's effect (but no other form of dmg up). Only meldable in Tank gear.
Piety gives mana regen, maybe heal potency and also the DH effect. Only meldable in Healer gear.
Supports can no longer meld DH.
DH is a DPS substat now.
Can maybe argue for adding something to it, like being a better DH than piety/tenacity, or increasing dmg not just the chance.
This aligns with Healers not being able to obtain DH materia from spiritbond (Tanks can extract DH wth) and Support relics not having DH.
Edit: spelling
oooo I kinda like that
Interesting solution!
Personally, as Tenacity and Piety wouldn't compete with Direct Hit in this situation, I think the bigger concern is that Tenacity/Piety would just turn into better Determination, even if it is Direct Hit they offer!
@@CaetsuChaijiCh isn't that already happening?
WHM as an example my prog set (crafted pentameld) had 0 DET and A LOT of DH.
WHM 727 BiS (funny gloves and boots) again has 0 DET and A LOT of DH
My thought process when no Balance BiS is up is: does it have piety? Ignore it. Then just CRT>DH>DET
The only balance math can mess with this is sps tiers...
That is not because direct hit is better determination, but rather because direct hit is just about equal with determination, and as I explained in the video, having more of the one you have less of is more impactful.
It is of course, with proper balancing, possible determination will simply be kept close to tenacity / piety, due to how these things stack as well 😊
that doesn't really solve anything, the issue isn't that Tenacity isn't good enough, its that Crit/DH/Ten/Det all serve the complete same purpose of increasing your damage, and one of them is the best meaning you never need to look at the others. At least for SkS, you used to be able to generally build SkS for some confort, but this also is getting less and less of an actual viable thing to do due to increasing amount of Cooldown Skills. The more Cooldown, the less SkS/SpS become preferable. I an ideal world, SkS/SpS would increase the damage you do linearly but this isn't the case (due to cooldowns). Therefore, you usually end up just getting enough SkS/SpS to get the correct line up for the rotation + extra GCD in the buff window and you do not get anymore. Piety giving mana regen also wouldn't help like Tenaicty due to you playing correctly making the stat worthless. Tenacity getting a buff to giving you 30% more EHP would still not solve the issue, as you can see what happend during 4.0 patches (If you aren't aware, Most Tanks used melee STR accessories instead of Tank Accessories due to it doing more damage).
Honestly the only solution is to get rid of Crit/DH, make SkS/SpS scale more linearly by effecting cooldowns, change how buff stacking works (so you arent forced to align buffs), stop worrying about correctly balancing the jobs with each other so much, and make the bosses easier and jobs harder (putting the weight of the difficulty from "doing the mechanics correctly" to more "playing your job correctly").
It sounds like i need to max tenacity for all of those Under the Armour runs for my mentor unlock 🤣
Could always have accuracy again or better yet bring back the parry tank! Lol
I don't agree with the statement that Tenacity cannot be made as good as the other stats in terms of damage output. In fact, there is literally no reason that the devs couldn't do this. Your only reason for why they can't is because then it becomes an autopick over any stats that it beats. But why is that any worse than crit being an autopick over everything that we've been doing for the past decade?
The issue with tenacity is that the devs want tenacity to represent a tradeoff of damage for defense, but that's not a trade that anyone really wants to make. They know that damage always wins in these types of choices. Tank stance dancing, cleric stance, enmity combos, vitality jewelry/melds, *parry rating* and probably other things I've overlooked were all examples of features of the game that let players choose between doing more damage and something else, and more damage always won. And all of them were removed because players always picked more damage unless forced to do otherwise. Tenacity itself only exists for this exact reason, because players refused to take a stat that offered no damage whatsoever.
The other issue with tenacity is that the defensive benefits will pretty much always be meaningless. Like let's assume that tenacity was good enough that a significant portion of the tank playerbase decided to stack it for that 21.5% passive damage reduction. If that's what players are doing, then that's what bosses are going to be designed around. Tanks won't take any less damage than they currently do because bosses will just be made to hit harder so that they put the same amount of pressure on tanks and healers. At most, it would just punish the tanks that don't stack tenacity.
Personally, what I would do with tenacity is increase its damage scaling to be equal to, or maybe slightly better than, det. But I would also remove the increased healing effect of tenacity. That way det has increased healing done while ten has reduced damage taken, just so that ten doesn't become det+. Even if tanks end up always taking ten over det, it wouldn't really change much as it would still only be our 3rd best stat. We'd still be making gear choices based on what gives more crit, and almost never meld it. I could even get behind the idea of buffing ten so that it's better than dh since it actually appears on our gear, also it would just make sense for the tank-only stat to be at least somewhat attractive to tanks.
I think it would actually be better to make DH not work on tank/healer. Only tanks get Ten, only healers get Pie and then only dps get DH. Making Ten the third stat to hit break points in for tanks, no matter if they buffed it to be closer or not. Same with Pie on healer, but they would have to buff it to give similar damage as det.
So really, the only stat a tank desperately wants to avoid (once you've hit a comfort tier) is skill speed now and avoided like the plague if you want an omni-tank set?
Kind of yeah 😅
For someone who likes to tank non-savage, non-ultimate content, Tenacity is perfectly fine or even optimal.
In content where 1% more groupwide damage really matters to the outcome, and execution of mechanics needs to be nearly perfect, it makes sense to ignore 5% more mitigation to get 2% more danage.
Just curious what casual content you mean, cause ilvl syncing will remove the effect of materia
3:07 hey thats me
also the answer is yes tenacy is bad cause it means i have less SKS
Haha😂 do you stack sks? 😊
@@CaetsuChaijiCh depends
On ranged no on tank somtimes
gdi the more I watch the video the more I realize you're about to say something I was just typing
the main issue will always be that a dead enemy cant deal damage, so having more dps yourself will almost always be more desirable
that's reflected in the materia prices, I'm from Midgardsormr and crit sells for 10k, det sells for 14k, DH sells for also 10k and then piety and tenacity are down to 300. even speed is usually a few k
Indeed! I've also previously suggested that more damage reducing the amount of mechanics, reduces the chance for your team (who you can't necessarily trust to do mechanics right) will fail mechanics. Tenacity only helps yourself (or help healers help you by you needing less healing) which ultimately doesn't help if the group is the problem right? 😅
@@CaetsuChaijiCh exactly! tenacity would make stabilizing a bad pull easier, but in my experience it's rare that a tank dies to something thats survivable(without an invuln) and we don't wipe right after(either from calling it or just cascade effect)
even then, I can see a use case if you got a weaker healer on your static and you're MT, at least it'll add some consistency to pulls(if they don't have to constantly look at your hp they'd be able to divert attention to the rest o the group)
Would you consider melding tenacity on your own gear or choosing a piece of gear because it has higher tenacity on it for progression purposes? I am curious if this is something you’d consider doing in your own progression, given that you are tanking savage.
For prog it's kinda pointless too, because you should be learning how to mit the fight as more dr is unnecessary, and can be cleared with min ilvl. Anything that the fight wants you to die on, you will die on no matter what. More damage is infinitely more helpful than more defense
I do not plan to meld tenacity no, however knowing how much damage reduction it provides at least makes me feel better about some pieces that just happen to have tenacity on it anyway 😊
Tenacity also looks a lot more interesting from the perspective of soloing things (although mainly in the lens of pushing something unsynced perhaps!) 😂
So I have a question. If I meld crit and det, and my self healing lets my healers take a break and do damage instead, is that a gain in team damage versus me melding direct hit and just increasing my damage?
Hypothetically yes. However unlikely this specific scenario would be 😊
rule of thumb ,the most class passive is usually wanted on random group . Sprout festival
Do they have gear sets for just swapping one's melds? I think that would be a game changer for the Tenacity argument.
There is no such option no, and the uniqueness of equipment actually pretty much enforces almost the exact opposite!
You're right, if it wasn't so costly to TRY some tenacity, players might be more likely to try it in niche situations!
if you are already non tenacity ? Keep it , its outrageously expensive to go back to non tenacity
IMO its a fair filler. On my mixed gear set (710+720 stuff) especially for my WAR, after maxing out Crit and Det, filling the rest of pentamelds with tenacity is pretty decent. ONLY looking on damage, on a tank who makes FULL use of DH its a ~difference of augmenting one gear piece difference in damage (disregarding other bonuses like HP). And yes I agree tenacity is far from being in the end of tier BIS set, but it can be good enough for prog/start especially considering it cost saved me more than 90% of gill I would have needed if I would have went for DH for example
It was nice to see you in game friend 💙all the best!
Good to see you! 😄
While I understand the logic behind tenacity as a learning tool for new tanks because the dps check is so low this tier, it needs to be said that tank damage is also not particularly high this time around. There's more auto attacks, sure, but all tank busters are over 2 minutes apart allowing 40% mit to be up on all of them even if you aren't invulning, *and* deal kind of a pathetic amount of damage compared to the last two tiers. This kinda leaves rampart as the obvious solution to all those auto attack sequences, especially with the healing buff it got.
I could see more value in Tenacity as training wheels in theoretical raid tier that had the tank damage of Abyssos combined with the lenient dps checks of Light-heavyweight.
I don't think it's fair for us to make an assessment right now when all the tanks can nigh infinitely heal themselves. Once tank healing gets nerfed into the ground as it should, having 20% mit perpetually will be huge sustain.
Something else for viewers to note is that the % difference is less in practice. Ten may be X% worse *per value* but in reality your damage difference is going to be smaller because you have the base 100% of your original damage you're doing and the substat values are small modifiers. In the example given, 10.6ten/13.2det is about -20%, but 110.6/113.2 is about -2.3% difference. That's still a decent margin but that example was only the 3058 crit you had, not accounting for the 4559 other substats diminishing the actual DPS difference between the two.
That's when you really start to see how big of a change it is. Tenacity is like 1.5% less damage for 20% mit. If you inverse that, not maxing Ten is choosing to take 25% more damage for 2% more damage.
Yet the answer is still "You don't need that mit and faster kills are more important."
Part of this problem is that raids are the only content we got. If we got content where sustain was more important, then Ten's value would skyrocket. But most content where it is more important has set static stats (deep dungeons, bozja). Although, now I am very curious about how good Ten is in Eureka at the moment...
The other aspect is that tanks have ridiculous self healing that makes it so that oftentimes healers don't have to do anything. Hopefully this gets fixed but judging based on the fact that the community is outraged that DRK has a reasonable amount of sustain instead of being overpowered like the other tanks, I genuinely don't know.
If we get content that emphasizes the importance of sustain, then likely the value would go up. If they also made it so that tanks are no longer blue healers, the importance of mit skyrockets. There's a lot of potential and it's hard to say for certain right now if it will stay obsolete.
In my opinion, the gap between Det and Ten is still too low. So many people are numbers chasers. It could be .5% and some people would forgo the 20% mit. I really want "Det over Ten" to be the gearing equivalent of standing in vuln stacks for uptime. I think Ten should be the expected gear and Det should be reserved for "shiny number" hunting, ideally. That would be the best way for both to have a purpose. There is absolutely a breaking point where it becomes more valuable to have that huge mit over a tiny DPS increase and people are smart enough to see that and adjust. The changes are so close but not quite there yet for the current content we have.
I have no real data on it, but I farmed out a full tenacity-det set for PLD for MINE savage Nael and it feels impactful, since she likes to do lots of damage and very frequently, especially later on when stuff overlap, and potency creep more than makes up for that tiny bit of lost damage imo. On that note, you can do some funny stuff with PLD, since weapons before stormblood still have wacky attackspeeds, so you can grab a 1.92 weapon for it and generate Sheltrons faster, instead of the now default 2.14 speed
As someone who just plays tank for fun, I just put max tenacity into all my tanks, it feels really nice to barely take any damage and when playing tank I don't really care whether a boss dies 4% faster. I think a good idea to buff tenacity beyond this point is to simply have it buff certain defensive effects of skills. Just to give PLD and DRK as examples:
- PLD :
--- Increase the HP buffer from Divine Veil (if TEN gives 20% dmg reduction, have Divine Veil then also give the shield effect a +20% hp increase)
--- Increase the rate of us gaining Oath Gauge depending on TEN
--- TEN improves shield potency of Guardian and duration/potency of Holy Shelltron's healing effect
- DRK :
--- Increase healing potency of Shadowed Vigil depending on TEN
--- TEN adds a health recovery bonus when dealing damage by consuming Dark Arts
--- TEN adds a health recovery bonus when dealing damage with Blood Weapon/Delirium active
First off) While we are still talking about Tenacity; Is Skill Speed still better than Tenacity...?
Second) Here's my hot take on Tenacity; Dark Knight needs it because Dark Knight has sucked keeping itself alive ever since the Shadowbringers re-work. And before people say "bUt ThE bLaCkEsT nIgHt Is StIlL pReTtY gOoD!" let me remind that The Blackest Night cost 3k MP, that you could have used for more Damage, and before anyone says "bUt ThAt'S wHaT dArK aRtS iS fOr!" I also need to remind you that you can ONLY get Dark Arts IF the shield breaks, not WHEN, and you have NO OTHER WAY of getting Dark Arts. Change my mind.
While the damage loss is bad, I can imagine how happy it would make healers in dungeons when using cooldowns properly on top of it, and isn't making healers happy worth it in the end?
Imo they just make Tenacity do something other than damage reduction like a passive regen rate or duration of mitigative abilities extended so I can have 12-15 secs of invuln that would be worth taking.
It's 02:14am
I'm drunk
I've bought an alt set of gear and (penta)melded tenacity
Healer loved it
Got 3 comms
Didn't lose much dmg
Tender Valley
TENACITY IS THE NEW CRIT - TANKS, MELD TENACITY TODAY! INCREASE HEALER DPS! HEALERS NEED *YOU*
I just use whatever the highest Ilvl gear I have is (rarely even meld materia). Do stats make enough of a difference that it really matters outside of ultimates?
Tenacity was never bad, the meta was just maximum damage done = better, and it was the healers' job to deal with the consequence. Even in the initial question an equal amount of tenacity resulted in a total 12*3=36% advantage compared to 16.7*2=33.4% advantage for determination. So unless you valued one of the components of tenacity at less than that of determination tenacity granted greater total advantage.
Tenacity was bad because the meta was to take advantage of your healers. The less prepared you are to do that the better tenacity gets.
I tried Tenacity one week for my weekly Savage (1-3) runs and I didn't notice a big difference without hard data. I checked FFLogs my party uploaded, and my parse was similar to other weeks (making me think I performed my rotation better to achieve the same damage with this weaker materia). I BARELY noticed a small difference in damage reduction. I DID feel like healers' spells were hitting me harder though.
I know what could be added to Tenacity to make it "good". A "guts" mechanic. A chance to survive on exactly 1 HP if you would have died, if you have enough tenacity (defined as a % chance based on a comparison of the damage you took and your tenacity stat, with some scaling involved).
A lot of the problem with DR is when you have enough to survive, as well as an answer for something, it loses value. A majority of the questions will be "did you end up on the floor?" if the answer is no, then doing more damage is always going to be more valuable due to boss dying faster = less chance for the boss to kill you with something.
This is often why damage reductions fall into two categories. Absolutely useless, or absolutely necessary. There really is no in between with it. Even if you factor in the cost of a healer being forced to heal, due to, say, it being mechanically required, as long as you have enough to survive, more becomes fluff and loses value in terms of damage. Damage being useful 95% of the time since a boss dying faster means less chances for them to kill you.
Tenacity as a stat just needs to be removed. There isn't really a world in which they can rework it to make it more valuable than direct hit (tanks can't get direct hit) or crit (warrior specifically gains a bigger bonus from it), or determination.
There are three purposes that defensive stats serve in MMORPGS that aren't really a thing in FFXIV, the first is to make you survive the damage spikes the game throws at you in the first place, and the second (once you've hit the survival threshold) is to slow incoming damage down and give your healer a bit more of a cushion to react and third is just to save on healer resources.
The first one is irrelevant because FFXIV doesn't place stats and gear hunting front and center like many others do. All content is balanced to be doable with pretty much any gear of a sufficient ilvl, so even the gear with the minimum amount of tenacity will still be enough to survive.
The second irrelevant is because FFXIV fights are strongly regemented and most high-damage moves have long tells, so healers will generally know what's coming several seconds in advance, so they do not need any extra help to react in time. There just isn't much random unexpected damage spikes to react to, not to mention that most healing is off the global cooldown and thus can be used as fast as the player can react. Stopcasting big slow heals to increase the chance of responding in time between a spike and when the tank would die isn't a thing here.
And thirdly healers rarely if ever run out of resources in FFXIV. They might temporarily run out of cooldowns and have to rely on GCD heals, but running out of both CDs and mana is incredibly rare unless several mistakes happen in short succession.
Additionally it often isn't the tank dying to damage that leads to a wipe, it's someone messing up a punishing mechanic. So when your survival is all but guranteed in dps oriented gear, leaning into it to make the fight go faster is means there's ever so slightly less chances for someone to mess up (with the time save as a nice bonus).
It's usefulness is likely higher in solo play, because the third point becomes relevant when you don't have a dedicated healer. When you only have the much more limited healing of a tank kit, an extra 10% damage reduction is much more likely to have an impact in making sure you don't run out
Tank skills offer more than enough damage reduction not to mention the upgraded skills 90-100 which basically means you never fall below 50% HP and have dmg reduction at the same time........they're going to need to buff Tenacity by a lot to make it worth using on tanks. The tool tip just makes it sound nice. When in reality it's a shambles. I maybe a casual in the grander scheme of things. But if they're going to make Tenacity worth it for tanks. Buff it so it matters.
Otherwise Crit , Direct hit will always be the go to option.
I have this mixed relationship as well with Tenacity
I would appreciate receiving it through a bonus like through food or its inbuild in your gear
however, I'm not too fond of the idea of melding Tenacity
In none hardcore content I have a mixed feeling as well with Tenacity
I personally prefer damage and healing over Damage reduction
but having the Tenacity does help in the wall-to-wall pull phase and makes you rely less on others for healing
then when your GNB or PLD it offers more room for you to cover or heal your healers which is often needed in DT because of AOE and higher difficulty for healers and casters
when roaming in the world doing fates and hunts Tenacity is then my absolute least favorite of the tank stats
but if you are in the level grind stage for your tank and will only use tomes sets between the 10 levels then using tenacity will help to push through the levels
However, I don't prefer not doing this and instead going for damage and upgrading my gear every +/- 5 levels
The problem is for more casual raiding teams is that once they get to a fight, they can literally go to fflogs and just copy a mitigation plan from other groups that have the same comp and still go with max damage. "Figuring out when to use defensives" simply doesnt exist outside of blind raiding which is mostly done by week 1 raiders anyway.
Things I learned today cause I never really properly read the stat... Tenacity increases the damage and healing. Huh. Main tanking Savages through EW and DT now on two characters with GNB, and never knew. I'm not a min-maxer type anyhow. I just go for what is typically simple in my mind with stats, so I throw crit on when I can, DH where crit cannot, with minor exceptions for the DH of some sksp materia so food puts me at 2.44 GCD. I used to stick to the full 2.5, but the tome weapon that had a LOT of SkSp. in EW got me used to the faster timings and I fell in love with it.
Though I am really aware of how much the bosses may actually hurt with autos at times, but it just made me actually use defensives for something OTHER than a TB. For the majority of EW, the chunk damage was so minimal that I literally just never bothered to personal mit except for TBs a lot. Exceptions if I saw a mistake and had to put extra out to cover it. Abyssos actually got me really into the habit of over-mitting the TBs cause of the constant dots. Something I never stopped doing since. Only difference is now I will use my short during auto phases, and will actually use Camouflage as well to help the healers not need to baby me. And if I am OT, HoC goes onto the MT during those phases as well.
Hmmm. I never put DH on my tank's since those stats are the lowest, like 300-500 range.
i aint about to waste my meld on it. i just meld more crit and detrm... but i am not a raider or anything just normal stuff to ex stuff and never had problems with dmg. So i wonder if DH would help at all?
I do the same on my healers.
I honestly wish more was done to maybe encourage the use of Ten, Pie, Sps, Sks... Otherwise it feels like, if you play Healer/Tank, any time you "extract materia" it's always a game of "Is it useful".
The fact ten gives more damage reduction is nice, but tanks won't care - we've damage pilled ourselves to the point it's becoming problematic - People have complained that they've homogenised the jobs; while simultaneously homogenising the stat priority for every single job, "Meld to preferred gcd, then crit
Ever since I saw a tank with full-melded Parry materias (back when those were still a thing!) For The Bit, and once Tenacity replaced Parry, I've become a full-on Tenacity pervert. Full Tenacity melds on all of my tanks. I... don't do savage content on my tanks, but still. Makes me giggle when I upgrade my tank gear.
tbh, as a tank main, i think they should just make TEN tank DET, there should be no gear i would avoid using because it theoretically gives me more defense;
and by "Make TEN tank DET" i mean, make TEN scale exactly like DET, (keeping the Defense changes how they are), and replace all DET on tank gear with TEN, it might not be a perfect solution, but i think it would be a lot better than how it is now, with tanks currently having 2 stats they'd want to avoid if they want maximum damage, instead of just SKS.
Or as someone else in the comments put it, Make it innate on all tank gear, that could potentially also work.
Honestly I wish they'd either commit to tenacity and piety and have those basically be determination for those roles (like, go so far as to get rid of DET on their gear and make DET do fuck all for them) or just get rid of them already.
Find it a shame, that as a stat that - according to the description - only affects tanks they still won't buff this to make it more in line with Det to be more enticing. Situationally, yes it is, but ideally it still isn't over other meld options where you won't be level synced. Wouldn't necessarily break the game since, again, only tanks are supposed to gain from tenacity stat, but that would make too much sense I guess.
ITS FINALLY HERE, UPDATED VIDEO ON TENACITYY, LETS FIND OUT!
Hopefully it is at least a bit uplifting news? 😅😁
@@CaetsuChaijiCh It was perfect, thank you so much!
Unfortunately I'm too smoothbrain to do much with my melding besides "get as much crit as I can and put the remaining slots on a secondary stat"
and if doing that for tenacity isn't helpful enough, direct hit it will continue to be, because things dying faster in farming content is very good
5:51 thats the reason why i use Rampart or Bulwark on PLD in M2S almost everytime in "Autoattack Phases" Guardian + Holy Sheltron (when you dont use it to early for the shortbuff) is enough to survive the Tankbuster without dropping to hard in LP
the issue is, the damage up simply doesn't outweigh the power Tanks already have.
as a PLD, I got a lot of holy shelltrons I can throw out for auto's and in general, you want your heavy CD for tank busters (since 300k unmittigated damage is quite a bit)
this leaves Rampart as your always safe bet, just toss a Rampart in at times to reduce the auto's you're taking, especially wicked thunder's auto's who do unmittigated around 60k damage, toss a Rampart into there and that's already 20% mitigated for 20 orso seconds on top of receiving more heals.
toss a random short CD in there as well (bloodwhetting etc) inbetween TB's and you'll be fine.
in M1 to M3S, auto attacks are way less impactful, it only really ramps up for M4S, and even then, it only really matters for week 1-3 or maybe 1-4, after you got some gear, even M4S doesn't deal that much damage anymore.
We honestly still have too many different stats, since DET is just a better TEN since it gets rid of the damage reduction and boosts damage and healing a bit.
Crit is just a staple of RPGs and then we got ... direct hit, why do we even have 2 critical hit stats? Yoshi complained about damage variance last expansion, all the fucking time, yet we have 2 crits in the game, the difference between me not critting, not DHCrit and getting them is massive.
with Confiteor with a normal attack is 50-60k, with crit it's around 90k and with DH crit it's easily 100-110k ... nearly double if I get it, create mechanic btw lol.
Honestly, get rid of TEN and DH, sure you would only have 2 paths forward, but it'll streamline the game a lot more since right now you got the illusion of choice, where you'll basically avoid TEN at all cost, DH is just Crit but another name (aka just a bad experience) and well, SKS is there for convenience, since if you play PLD and any other tank, you'll just go for no SKS since 2.5 is the only viable PLD out there, otherwise you'll always drift your CD and quite a bit at that. (over the course of a fight you nearly drift your OGCDs so hard they come back off CD)
Det becoming "discount tenacity" is fine though... think less discount Tenacity and more "Det for Tanks". Or even easier... gives all tanks a trait at 50 or something that just says "the effects of Tenacity are more effectice" so only tanks have it even out. Edit: also, I really don't think every job every tier should get optimal gear sets... like sometimes you should just have to adjust your play and eat the L from being unable to avoid certain stats.
I just realised that tenacity is most powerful on darkknight.... F also I still need to lvl that one to 100. Might just get some more tenacity to make it easier
What I'm hearing is "Long story short, off-tank should just give you their 25s mit as often as possible, whenever they don't need it" lol, tenacity will always be somewhat useless, as with more tank proficiency, you learn to juggle your mits better. Numbers seem good on paper, but what hits the boss can't give you is a better mitigation than taking longer to kill the boss.
If they want tenacity to be used, it should be buffed so the damage bonus is at least the same as Det. Maybe make the damage the same while the healing buff is lower then Det.
Another way it could be used is making DH a dps only stat like tenacity is for tanks and piety is for healers. Then tenacity is at least the third stat to prio for dps tanks though im sure this would include a crazy amout of work behind the scenes to maintain balance.
5:45 Yes! This is why I decided to try out Tenacity materia, and I think healers get distracted by mechanics and forget how heavy the auto-attacks can be.
I think it's worth emphasizing that if you are going to experiment with different melds and using tenacity, it is still *never* correct to replace your crit melds. You lose a lot more by replacing crit melds than you do by replacing direct hit or determination.
From what i saw , if you premade ? Tenacity is overkill . But if you never premade . Tenacity is mandatory . I love the random challenge
I use tenacity and potions when leveling the first 30 levels on a tank, no one is telling me i'm not doing wall to wall pulls.
Otherwise is completely useless, same as piety
I can't remember there was a tier where my bis actually had Tenacity melding. I could also be gaslighting myself and i remember wrong.
Let's replace that asterisk with "Guys we are level 100 now. You should know how to play your class by now."
Tenacity is sounding very similar to the value of having a Rez Mage in your prog group...
Thank you.
When i shoved like 200 Direct Hit materia onto my tank set i felt like this materia system is quite silly
Can you do a similar video for Skill Speed?
I actually made exactly such a video back in endwalker, and not much has changed for the stat since dawntrail (in fact, the additions to two minute bursts probably made things a bit worse!)
Here is a link to that video if you are curious!
ua-cam.com/video/tQrelqlaIn0/v-deo.html
There is also a Playlist on the channel talking about the various stats! 😊
@@CaetsuChaijiCh Oh I watched that one on release! I was thinking more like a comparison style video like the ones you did here, such as "2000 of X stat equals +X DPS, while 2000 of Y stat equals +Y DPS, therefore, X stat is overall better". However, due to the way SkS works differently for every single job, calculating exactly how much extra DPS it is giving you sounds almost impossible. Loved this video btw. Cheers!
@Fain255 oooh like that! Yeah speed would be basically impossible to compare properly without going into every single job and it would probably be very overwhelming 😅 thank you for the suggestion though!
And that's amazing, it's been quite a bit since I made that one! 😄
your got to remember tho that auto crit moves don't get the crit dmg + from crit material, but DH
So, question. I’ve been doing this savage tier and extremes with full direct hit melds on my tanks. Should I add crit instead if the piece can take it. I think my current stat spread is like 2400 crit, 2100 determination, and 1600 direct hit.
It's a bit complicated. Crit beats direct hit if you have over a certain threshold in crit to begin with. This usually comes about more naturally after the first raid tier, and in the first raid tier specifically it is somewhat likely you would prefer direct hit if your gear isn't majority crit already 🤔 your current setup is probably fine!
I've tanked through ShB and EW savages and have noticed the significant increase of auto attack damage this tier. I actually found myself planning my defensive cool downs around heavy movement segments where I'm still getting auto attacked to death. Personally i'm a fan of this as its less sitting on defensive CD's that you're otherwise just saving for a TB and more of where can I use these CDs to help out my healers the most. Honestly i would prefer tenacity to be stronger than determination (i wish it was the strongest stat) as it's a tank only stat, while determination is used for every job so it would still be valuable to everyone else.
I like your spirit and realisation about the mits, but you should have been cycling mits no matter what, cause everything autos, and they all hurt, don't sit on mits just waiting for a tb. I know it seems like a tiny amount, but every bit of damage saved is more time the healers can spend attacking
They really need to make all stats worthwhile and slightly alter your over all playstyle
I feel like the mindset is if you kill something faster, the difference in clear time potentially is better in "reducing damage" than just taking longer fights with perma damage reduction. Plus, that damage reduction only applies to you. By clearing the fight faster, everyone else in the party takes less damage too
Exactly, and this is also the kinds of reasons why it only makes sense at all to reduce the damage on yourself if it actually would make a substantial difference, which rarely comes up! 😅
you gotta love how ff14 is just an all dps game. you'd think the devs would have figured this out by now. I have always said that if you need your tanks and healers to be the extra dps that saves your raid, you're not good raiders and need more practice. and i stand by that.
How are other mmo metas different? Max dps is literally never a bad idea lol
i'm a paladin tenacity (Ur Ru) since i'm a real sprout i unlocked some some savage and the dungeon equivalent . But i would need to test in arr first .coil of bahamut but nobody ever do those . But up to hard . Tenacity is more forgiving .less button mashing festival
Don't bother queuing for Coils, legitimately nobody does those because they aren't really balanced for casual play, and don't appear in the roulettes. You likely won't be able to test the effectiveness of meteria until you get to modern content, because ilvl syncing removes the effect of materia, and you will almost certainly be ilvl synced in most duties at this point. Also tenacity sucks lol meld crit
I'd like to know the gap between war and other tanks, bcs war has auto dh on burst while others haven't. Would this change something in point of tenacity?
The primary change is that warrior scales better with direct hit than the other tanks by a bit. The fact warrior does so much healing also makes crit and determination look better, so overall warrior would probably be the one among the tanks that would be most negatively affected on output by taking tenacity. 🤔 Although this is just a guess on my part!
tenacity is a heaven for healer . Again se is very focused on by proxy .