Follow-Up to 3 Sportscards Moral Grey-Area Scenarios: Yours and My Opinions on Them
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- Опубліковано 15 лип 2024
- Part 1: • 3 Sportscards Moral Gr...
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They need to say "reprint" not "RP." Those saying "buyer beware" are the same ones who would sell to rip off.
Good point about "RP" not being acceptable... I meant to mention that and forgot
The house inspection comment was spot on!
eBay could fix all listing errors if they uploaded checklists where you selected the specific card.
I like this idea, but they would limit sellers ability to list if they made an error. But, it is an interesting idea.
I agree. There has to be a universal checklist or listing standard. Let all the grading companies merge one together and get it to eBay. I think this should be the standard for all listings. How are we in 2024 and a universal checklist and/or universal POP report not here yet!!!
ebay is about money
It’s not by accident, I know that to be sure.
@@RandomEsports1every company is
It SHOULD really be this simple, just treat others how YOU want to be treated.
It's definitely illegal to sell custom cards of players with team logos and player likenesses, but it's probably not worth the time, effort and legal costs for players' associations and leagues to go after all of the people selling these cards. That's why card companies have to pay the leagues and players' associations money in order to be able to produce and sell cards.
Still think that's a pretty rough grade (4) for the Jordan. Again, compare to vintage cards from 50 - 100 years ago being graded...it's like either vintage is graded too high (usually not) or the modern card is graded too low (probably).
Even tho PSA is the most popular and gets the most value, I actually trust SGC and BGS more when it comes to grading. You will NEVER see a card graded a 5 or 6 from SGC, and you crack it resend it and comes back a SGC 10(but with PSA, that happens some times and its a problem).
Saturday morning videos are my favorite
Great stuff Chris. Great things to think about. Thank you!
How are people getting these signed stickers?!
I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV. Of course it's illegal.
One thing to consider on the custom cards conversation I find fascinating. Someone making a custom Purdy, cutting out a random shield from a random jersey and adding a sticker auto is the exact same thing Panini does! Their shields and relics are often “not from any specific player or event”. Meaning they can just buy a jersey, cut off the patch and add an auto. Paninis version (while they do have the rights to the logos which is a separate conversation) sells for $50k and that one sold for $1500. I know you’ve talked about the non-game used stuff before but I think it needs to be included in this conversation too
The custom cards have lots of copyright infringements. If this was allowable, Leaf and Panini wouldnt need to airbrush logos out for their sets.
I despise custom cards that use copyright material. This is 100% misleading to NEW COLLECTORS.
I agree on the not having to Disclose previous subs. We all have to remember our grades are based by humans. We make mistakes as humans and sometimes graders have bad days.
I have just as big of a problem with sellers selling bogus cards in lots to avoid the Guaranteed Authenticity of eBay.
In the history of an open market, its always been buyers beware principle. Always know the what, when, where or why, especially to those who are new (Geoff Wilson) to the hobby.
Cards are like everything else...they are only worth what the buyer is willing to pay.
It’s literally everyone’s fault when it comes to the reprint of an expensive card. From least at fault to most - The manufacturer for even making it, the seller knowing damn well they’re manipulating the listing and being dishonest to get the most for it, and the buyer/bidders who are so ignorant to what they’re buying/bidding on and do zero research. If I’m gonna pay hundreds of dollars for a card you better believe I’m making sure it’s an original and exactly what I want.
the rise of NFTs... look into it
Manufacturer even making the reprint is the fault everything else you say rests after
So if your wife buys you a card for your birthday. She is going to be so overwhelmed and could easily buy one of these reprint cards thinking it's legit. Your gonna say it's her fault for not doing research. Uh no that's just wrong.
In regards to the Brock Purdy Custom, I think everyone is forgetting it’s illegal to sell items with trademarked logos, emblems, and/or use a photo of a player which they did take or or have the rights to use. AND it gets worse, when the seller shipped that item in the mail, it then became a Federal crime (which have mandatory minimum sentences). It’s FRAUD. Full stop.
I’d venture to say, 99% of the people creating cards like this would be prosecuted for racketeering.
I don't believe that's entirely accurate. There are plenty of sports cards that were made without the rights, Star is an example. They never had the rights to any NBA logos, but the 1984 Star Michael Jordan card can be purchased legally. Also, it isn't criminal as far as I'm aware, it would be civil, and the person(s) liable would be the creator(s), not anyone who happened to sell the card afterwards.
If this was a crime, there wouldn't be people selling unlicensed artwork at basically every card show ever. It wouldn't be getting sold on a website that has to follow the laws of the nations it operates in. By this time, if this were a criminal offense, decades after custom cards and unlicensed artwork started coming out, major arrests would have happened and EBay may not even exist today.
@@snerdterguson I can draw an original picture of MJ on a blank card and sell it. However, the nba/bulls/Nike logos can not appear on said item without consent by those organizations. That’s fraud, pure and simple. If someone commits fraud then ships it’s across state lines it’s a federal crime. If someone is making a living off stuff like that on eBay it’s racketeering. EACH SEPERATE shipment with said fraudulent items has its own individual mandatory minimum punishment. This is a fact. If the NBA, Bulls, Nike, etc does not press charges then it’s ok. 40 years ago the NBA let it go because it would be bad press and star wasn’t making big $ like the licensed cards. Remember the Obama HOPE posters that sold in 2007-2008? The guy who made them used a photo taken by a professional photographer and used Adobe Illustrator tools to make it look artsy. He was sued by the photographer. They settled out of court, the guy got a couple years probation and a fine.
Great videos man! I'm glad you tackle some of these issues because ebay can be a nightmare to search through. I would not call the custom cards "fake" though. While their listings are misleading, the cards are real custom cards, not fakes. A fake would be someone 100% reproducing an original card exactly how it looked to try to fool people. As long as the listing is not misleading, there's not anything wrong with creating your own card beyond the licensing issue, which is a thing.
Once the card is cracked it is no longer a graded card. It is a raw card.
I love this channel.
A lot of great perspectives to consider. A wise man learns from others mistakes…a fool learns from their own. Unfortunately eBay won’t gatekeep all of these specifics whether they should or not but great perspectives.
Moral Grey Area- or MGA for short - great rapper name! Even greater video/ thanks for the follow-up!
Hi Chris. Thanks for the update. These types of cards at least should say "REPRINT" somewhere in that listing.
Half of people in our hobby are like that. They are called the bad apples. I just fart in their face.
i do hope in acquiring comc that ebay will move that their model of listing cards
Same!
Interesting that your first example showed cards with sellers from Pennsylvania (Dover and Harrisburg). I am from this area, lots of shady characters here, didn’t surprise me these were shady.
Id say most people wont care about revealing prior grades but mangini collection made a good point and said there will be more altered cards in slabs than raw cards simce everyone is cleaning and trimming cards they want a better grade so they will work on them
The law says too that you cannot use someone's name on a bill on anything without their permission written permission
Agree on the rejected cards being sold raw... I leave them in PSA's 'rejection' cardsavers and sort of forget about them unless I think a resub is in order... And no, the NFL would not permit anyone to use their logo for profit without having some control and getting a financial piece of the action... Remember not too long ago that PSA very actively complained to eBay about anyone and everyone using 'PSA' in their card listings for cards that were not in PSA holders(most listers were including 'PSA' to suggest that the card is so good it will grade high)... and that is an even less clear cut example of brand abuse since the listers were only referencing PSA in their listing titles... putting the logo on the card and selling it is copyright infringement and a fraud, basically...
I had used PSA in descriptions, but only a couple times and just to denote a card with minor damage. As an example, I would say a card was in good condition but had a minor surface issue, so would likely grade PSA 9 or lower.
Not sure if that is right or wrong, but my personal intent was to make the buyer aware that the card likely wouldn't grade at a 10.
Strange to see that PWCC Weekly Auction listing, as I thought they only accept graded cards for auction.
They also accept MBA-authenticated cards (such as the Aaron).
I'm probably in the minority here, but I love seeing creative custom cards on eBay! For me, it's obvious what's not legit, and I'll pick something up if it's creative, player I like and cheap (definitely under $20). I bought a card that had a sick patch, it was a Kobe custom card who's patch is just as legit as what Panini puts on most their stuff now. If those cards had to go into a separate category then i wouldn't be able to find the "diamons in the rough"! My only problem with the Purdy is that the "one of one" font is exactly the same as Panini, which would be infringement in my book... besides that, I don't see anything wrong!
Good issues, liked the vid! I see people list Chrome cards as refractors all the time on Ebay that are not a Refractor version. Maybe Ebay needs some new updated policies also on misleading listings. Also if you get duped on a card like you first talked about you could ask for a Refund and state the listing title was misleading. Probably 80% of the time Ebay would agree with you that the listing was in fact misleading and allow the refund.
Always a great video!
Card manufactures pay a lot of money to use Team logos and players images. There is nothing illegal in creating a card for yourself but when you take that card and try to sell it, then you cross the legal threshold of a crime. If you then mail that card you have committed another crime.
The bottom line is IF a seller wants to be moral, they'll be explicit about the card and not do the bare minimum, hoping someone will misread it and overpay. Using the excuse "the buyer should know better," even if a seller should, still allows that the seller is taking advantage of someone. Is taking advantage of a buyer's carelessness or ignorance okay? It seems a lot of sellers think so as long as they feel they did their "due diligence."
I broke out an 86 Fleer Jordan out of a BCCG slab 7 and sent it to PSA. Came back from PSA as altered. Sent it to SGC and it came back graded as a 3.5. Go figure.
Copyright/Trademark laws apply if person is selling as an authentic brand, uses the brand in its title description, imitates trademarked or parented design, etc.
Question for #2 If I buy the Michael Jordan RC & then try to crack it to be regraded to PSA & comes back altered. Who's at fault & what should I do?
Question for #3 Custom cards should not be sold as RC since you do not have license to do so. Also digital cards are garbage & should not be allowed on ebay. 👎💯
#2 question. I guess you should crack it again and send it back to SGC.
#3: Totally agree
The PWCC listing is a bit misleading also by the picture of the card being held in white gloves ,making it appear to be more special than it is. No one wears white gloves with a $5 card. It should just be the card,front and back with no fluff.
The description is wrong so they are eligible for a return even if the seller doesn't offer them.
Good point
Great video again, buddy! Thank you so much for touching on some important and polarizing issues. It definitely helps those of us that want to be more involved and invested in “the hobby”
Man, you got a great think tank in your viewership, Chris. Really great points/perspectives all around. Re: the legalities of making/selling custom cards featuring official NFL league and team logos, maybe reach out to ‘hobby attorney’ Paul Lesko(e). I bet he might have some insight. If you don’t know him, I bet Dustin SCD would hook you guys up lickety split.
Some of the custom cards like Banty Red have payed for licensing and make quality cards
Selling custom cards is trademark infringement. However, if you make a custom card for yourself, you are covered by the Fair Use exception.
I believe it’s unlikely the NFL, NFLPA, or Fanatics sue custom card sellers unless the cards are consistently selling for large amounts. The repetitional damage of suing these sellers likely outweighs the monetary recovery (think of Dan Snyder suing season ticket holders)
The custom card’s definitely seems illegal to me! Especially if they’re being sold on any platform! And just like I’ve had a issue with not paying for a card I found to be fake and the seller wouldn’t cancel it! I get a strike on my account. If a seller does something like trying to sell fakes or is misleading I think they too should get strikes! And be limited by the platforms the same way a buyer is!
i get what you're getting at chris, and i agree, but in 20 years of selling on ebay, in basically everything but sports cards, i will say this. i don't know how you could ever not get your money back as a buyer on ebay for basically any reason at all, regardless of how illegitimate the sale or claim was. you are super protected as a buyer on ebay.
I would equate grade shopping to doctor shopping. You trust a company and send your cards there but then you don’t like what the company you trust says so you crack it and send it all around town. Doctor shopping is definitely a no no and our opiate epidemic tells us why. When doctors said no then people in a manipulative manner went around looking for the answer they wanted. Look what that led to. Grade shopping leads to BGS because they are grading so few cards that I would no longer deem them reliable. So you go to second and third tier people to get what you want to maximize your profits. This is exactly what’s wrong in this country. We see companies do this and so we do this. We are always looking for a way around things to get what we want. Where does it end? The alarming thing is SGC and BGS have no guarantees around anything they do and are lesser used because they fetch lower prices. That’s exactly why you send your cards to PSA first, right? If you use them first you must trust them the most. If you only use BGS and SGC for regrades this is a huge red flag to me. That’s why so many grading companies come and go. They become the regraders with the least experience that are likely to give you what you are looking for and the analogy extends to those awful “doctors”. Many people seeked those doctors out or when their real doctor said no they didn’t take no for an answer. It’s ironic that CGC has the best guarantee and that when you read PSA’s guarantee, it falls apart quickly and covers their ass for almost any potential mistakes. What I would like you to address are a few things. One: don’t you feel like final value fees create an inherent conflict of interest? Two: Why wouldn’t CGC be the best alternative for everyone involved with the card as their guarantee is the best and they stand behind their work? We have all heard about the comic book thing by now, reholdering, CGC, CSG, is standing behind the issue and has identified the culprit and are taking action and this goes as a warning to others that when you are found out, and you will be, you will go to jail for fraud. What this tells me is that PSA doesn’t really stand behind their work because often they have been protecting fraudsters in the past. The sheep have been drawn to PSA because collectors is a massive force in the hobby but once again like many things the masses have been misled to an inferior option and most likely around a lot of collusion.
Many good points but I think Opiates and Dr. Shopping is a bit of an extreme comparison here... Grading is an opinion on a card's condition... there are clearly differences in which aspects the established grading cos. favor(PSA tougher on corners than SGC, SGC nuts about centering, etc.)... I could make the case that always using PSA is it's own 'epidemic'(to potential profit), but I think there are 3 longstanding grading cos.(and CGC/CSG) that are reliable and respected in the market...
It is absolutely 100% illegal to make custom cards with professional sports logos on them. That is why card companies that make cards don't use the team logos or names if they don't have the license.
The thing is it isn't worth the NFL suing Joe Blow over his $60 card business.
I absolutely vomit when I see "custom cards" and sneaky reprints on Ebay. Sellers who are trying to be sneaky about reprint crap should get the shite beat outta them
Whether it’s grandma or a seasoned collector, I think it’s more about the spending amount. If Grandma wants to buy a card for her grandson for $10, OK. But if grandma is spending hundreds of dollars on a single card, I’d still say that’s on her. Not advocating for misleading buyers - just saying the amount being spent is a big factor for the moral gray exercise.
Sounds like the point you're making is morality has a sliding scale depending on the dollar amount. Is that correct?
@@jimmybacas8003 not morality - responsibility. I think the more expensive something is, the more it is on the buyer to know what they’re buying, that’s all
The biggest issue with the second example is how can grading companies have such wildly different grades on cards? It is an issue with grading in general, but gives me thoughts that my PSA10 is actually not that great or a lesser grade should be graded better. Sad especially when the high grades go for a premium. I would need 2-3 different grading companies to call my card gem mint before I am satisfied with the grade in todays age.
My opinion on the stats the regrade is we kind of should but we won’t. A close circle of folks in the hobby do that that I buy bonds cards from but we that don’t have close personal relationships with each other won’t…second. PSA uses a loop and Beckett and SGC does not. Not sure about cgc and the others. IE…your scenario of the altered or why a PSA 4 can get into a BGS 9.5 case. There is reason for that. Should they disclose that…should we?
So the NFL or Panini could definitely sue the maker of that card or send a cease and desist but it's unlikely worth the NFL's time or effort to do that unless the maker is mass-producing them or making a lot of money. If they sold a card for 1 million instead of 1.5K then you'd likely see a suit because it would be noisy and any copyright and trademark holder does have a responsibility to defend their property.
I would bet my last common card, all these customs using the shield, font script, etc. are copyright infringement.
I'm an artist, and have done one off pieces that got me a Cease and Desist letter. But, it's usually if you use something that is from a big company like Disney or something. Also, if it's something you are producing in multiples to sell like a t-shirt. On the flip side, a lot of entities just don't care.
IMO, the NFLPA et. all, should absolutely crack down on these cards. Just look at the Panini situation and what limited usage they've had over the years. Bottom line, these custom cards are deception pure and simple. Could you call it art? Sure... but it isn't.
mickey mouse has lost its patents in 2024!!! let it rip!
Question about grading are graders "blinded" to who they came from? I've always wondered if they are wise to big $ dealers who send in 100's of modern cards at a time- like your Nolan Arenado example -the card is perfect...and you said yourself it makes zero sense to grade it a 5....are they just biased to "frequent flyers" folks who send in to grading a ton? Curious your thoughts
I am really not sure about that
I almost guarantee most of the custom cards wouldn't pass authentication
To comment on your vaulting company point, I noticed that comc doesn't have a way to reach out to the seller via a messaging option, like on eBay, to be able to negotiate prices, before sending a formal offer. Am I missing that feature, and just not seeing it? Or am I stuck with the offer process as it sits?
Yeah COMC does not allow private messages.
I recently purchased a slab from an auction house which had all the markings of PSA except the number on the card wasn’t found in their database . Clearly this is a counterfeit. What recourse do I have in dealing with the auction house ?
I don't know as it depends on the auction house but I would email their customer support as a start.
I believe if the person has legally purchased the NFL shield from a licensed product, then they are well within their rights to make new art out of it because the license fee was already paid.
Interesting...
The issue you run into is that the fee was paid by the original company, and when you create an artwork card, you altered the authenticity
I just thought about this, but doesn't any card that sells for over $300 have to go through Ebay authentication? I would think they'd catch a card like that Purdy if that was the case. I guess the question also is do you have to run auction items through Ebay authentication? If that's not a rule, maybe it should be.
Good question. I am not sure what would happen with the Purdy because it does say "Custom Card" in the title and it is PSA authenticated (the auto). I don't know if ebay authentication would block it or allow it.
hey chris any way to do a video on breakers, influencers, both good and bad? topic comes up over and over in the card news it seems.
Ive considered that but its really not an area I follow
@@collectorinvestordealer just a suggestion not a demand i figure you would have a very analytical view to it, also value your opinion. your such a chill and mellow guy compared to the other card people i have meet on my journey.
Custom cards are not fakes, as you repeatedly call them. They are custom. They do not say panini, or national treasures. Nowhere do they claim to be made by a major company. They are a custom design modeled after National Treasures, not a fake national treasures. There is a huge difference. In the Brock Purdy title the only words that dont apply are sp and ssp. Its a 1/1 nfl shield patch auto custom card.
How does a legit sticker auto get on a fake / custom card? Someone just peeled it off another card??
I have a moral grey area question for you.
Let's say my card i'm selling has a scratch or print line on it. Is it ok if I just note that in the description on ebay or do I have to put "READ DESCRIPTION" in the title. I don't really feel like it should be my responsibility to tell the buyer to read about what he/she is buying.
I personally do not feel that needs to be mentioned in the title. But it needs to be very clear in the description.
I don't think the picture of the athlete is too much of an issue... But wen u add in NFL ur looking for trouble...
Is there any easy way to block these clowns on eBay?
If you made the card in 2023 then it’s 2023 card! Which was his rookie year. And NFL shield logo is just as legit as the ones Panini puts in its card! 😂
Hell no on the regrade
Again, you guys are buying non-associated patch cards from Topps and Panini and calling it “real.”
Its not scotch tape lol. Its a leaf etc card. The nfl logos on panini cards are just manufactured like Brock. Honestly not much different
1st gj chris
We have a winner!
1. It’s Topps’ fault for creating these cards.
2. It’s the grading company’s fault for giving out poor grades and not being bothered to say what the fault is.
3. Custom cards are just garbage. Avoid obviously.
Let's create a "Card Fax" history....Not
If you crack a card and send it off to another grader and it comes back a higher grade, why should you tell a potential buyer? This is why I left the hobby. There's just too much BS and confusion.
Many people buy bgs true gems just to send them to psa to get 10s. With that in mind I still wouldn’t disclose it lol
Maybe because it's the ethical thing to do?
@old_the_giant how is that the ethical thing to do lmao. If you didn't trim the card or alter it in any way the buyer does not need to know the grade a card no longer has
Sports Cards Live episode 210 former leaf ceo brian gray talks about using celebrities names and likeness without permission without being sued. He cites a court case where the judge said there's a balance between publicity rights and eduction. After all, michael jordan's face and likeness have been in a million newspapers without issue.
ua-cam.com/video/yscBUDWAqr4/v-deo.html at about 55:30
and in conclusion ebay is to blame for all 3, lol
Haha :)
Barfyman? What the H?
You buried the lead and the moral. Business ETHICS is the lead, and the Golden (not Ken) Rule is the moral. Still a great video, thx Chris. 🎉
The expression, from journalism, is "bury the lede".
@@Famdoc1000 auto correct can destroy diplomatic ties between nations as well as my credentials in the comments 😁
I got 10 Aaron Judge cards. One is a box top card. Pick them up from 2019 to 2020.
imo if u miss label ur doing it deliberately ur scamming people
And don't even get me started how big a scam numbered cards are. Tell me how are card manufacturers stamping /199 on a specific design of a card when they are printing thousands of cards without that numbered stamp in the same design. Lol it's completely nonsense that a fraudulent numbered card, which that's what they are, should be valued significantly higher than a card in the same design without. Me personally I would much rather have the card without a irrelevant and pointless number plastered on the front or back taking away the appeal of the design. This hobby is becoming compete nonsense and collectors are paying for these card and grading company control the market with manufacturing fraudulent numbered cards trying to make them appear more rare to collectors. Like there is only 199 or whatever cards made which is blantent lie. Or grading company's controlling the market with pop reports not giving grades to cards with significant values that either belonh to one of their prostegious customers and collectors or cards they themselves own to assure these key cards values don't fall. If they didn't own these cards with significant values, then why would they clearly not give a card that's 100% a Gem 10 that's grade no matter what sometimes wouldn't Even grade it higher than a 7 or 8, knowing they receive more money if a value of a card is worth x amount at a Gem 10. So why is PSA doing pop control we all know they are doing tk these key cards if they aren't in control or possess or being paid off to receive a grade. Let me give you an example. The 1986 Jerry Rice Rookie card look at the difference in value of a Gem 10 and a PSA 9. 75k down to 2k... but ask yourself this and I don't care what you think, I know that PSA will never grade another jerry Rice rookie at a Gem 10 no matter what. So why is that? Collectors are paying for these companies to flat out scam us. It's bullspit. I don't know about you I'm sick of it. Now that AI technology is approving, I believe these grading company's need in place the same software that's regulated by the BBB to verify no manipulation can occur and let AI technology do various scanning techniques to give a grade to a card and take the bull pop control values on cards assuring the extortion of mknwy for resubmit cards are taking out of human subjectiveness. That's what needs to happen in this hobby. Take the control and market manipulation away from these companies and give it back to the average collectors. Period cause last time I checked fraudulent manipulation in any financial market was a crime.
It doesnt have to be the BBB I'm looking for any collectors or investors to help for a company that regulates and holds these companies accountable from controlling the market as they see fit. Or create a grading company and completely take human subjectiveness out of the equation and make this type of fairness of the grading of cards the industry standard.
How this will be 100% accurate is every card manufacturer will have to submit each card design manufacturered they feel is of perfect gem 10 quality into the database then AI can grade cards submitted off that data for each card design graded. That's how cards need to be graded allowing no possibility of illegal activity or extortion of collectors money resubmission of cards again and again knowing the card was graded subjective and inaccurate for whatever reason or purposely graded poorly to intensively extort money from collectors or control population on card grades. This has to become the standard if this hobby is wanting to flourish instead of down in flames likes its heading. Also each card submission will include a printout of the gem 10 and their card which points out and explains all flaws and how their grade was acquired. 100% transparency with no human involvement determining a grade.