We actually had a discussion about Batton Pass in ORAS on the Ubers Cord the day before this video was released, after it was used in an Ubers Winter League game. There is not really a common consensus but the topic is very polarizing, so one side completely hates it for being broken and uncompetitive and the other thinks it is a bad strategy. Darkrai and GeoXern have also been in the discussion as potentially overwhelming and having a negative influence on the tier. So it might not be too farfetched to expect some changes to the tier in the near future
If so can we have something more reasonable than an excessive full ban? The clip from 6:11-6:15, where Scoliede *bypasses being Pursuit-Trapped* is why I've never agreed with a fun ban on the move. It allows things weak to Pursuit *some counter-play against Pursuit-Trapping,* yet instead of taking some nuance and allowing the healthy aspect of Baton Pass (the pivot aspect with a trait that no other pivot move has other than Teleport) they just went too far and punished mons like Celebi who would likely rather use Baton Pass as a pivot move than U-Turn. There's a Mega Mawile set on Smogon that uses Baton Pass *solely as a pivot move,* the only way that it'll pass anything is if it gets hit by Swagger. At that point *it's your own damn fault* if you get swept by a Lum Berry physical setup sweeper that got an additional attack boost on top of it's own boosts. *Here's my proposed complex ban:* Baton Pass cannot be used in combination with direct ways to boost stats (abilities, moves or items) as well as moves that pass on positive effects to the recipient. For Gen7 I'd add particular Z-Crystals, namely the Eevee and Normal ones due to Extreme Eevoboost and Normaliuim Z having more than a few powerful boosting effects (no Z-Conversion+Baton Pass for example). The only two exceptions would be moves with low percent chances to boost stats (like Meteor Mash) and abilities like Sap Sipper that give you a stat boost for taking a particular Type of attack. You just can't bank on passing an attack boost from Meter Mash or an Ancientpower omiboost, the Sap Sipper one might be an issue, however that would require testing to see if they'd need to be banned as well. I tried to keep this complex ban as simple as possible, targeting the problem areas while keeping the healthy aspects of the move.
Not to go too hard, but if there are no viable baton pass pokemon other than Scolipedeand Baton Pass is overpowered, Scolipede should at least be on the table for a ban. Not saying it should be banned or that Baton Pass is overpowered, but Scolipede as a whole package is much more than Baton Pass - It is Speed Boost + Baton Pass + Toxic Spikes + Iron Defense, which is a very specific and very powerful set of traits, even if its BST is trash.
@@AceAviations2 The complex ban concept you proposed is already a thing in other old gens, it's called Drypass. Issue isn't really with the community of the tiers but the senior staff who regulates these decisions, trying to enforce rule symmetry and disallow complex bans for the sake of making it look nicer on paper. Regardless, a complex ban and a full ban might as well accomplish the same, since there are no other viable sets using it. MMawile and Blaziken are next to unviable and if they are used, they cannot fit a slot for Batton Pass. The article for the MMawile set you are referring to was made ages ago and was already niche at the time it was written. The meta has evolved a lot since then, with teams and strategies being ironed out. MMawile has completely fallen out of favour since then, seeing 0% usage in the last Ubers Premiere League for example. It would be for the best if there was a complex ban but seeing these circumstances, it's not likely.
@@beaky8138 Scolipede wouldn't be used at all if Batton Pass in it's current form were to be restricted, Batton Pass is really the only thing giving it a niche. Either way, a ban on Batton Pass or Scoli would accomplish pretty much the same thing since like mentioned in the video, it is more or less the only Batton Pass user. It would look weird to have a UUBL Pokemon banned in Ubers but then again, we have done the same thing with Basculegion because we could not implement a complex ban on it's Last Respects. Hard to tell what it's going to be going forward or if there even will be action taken
agreed, there's ways to deal with it but at that point you're mostly grasping at straws like a lucky crit, and even if you get the crit you're not guaranteed to win
When I was a kid, I built a gen 4 team that uses ninjask to baton pass speed boost and swords dance boosts to a no guard Machamp. Highly unoptimized, but among my friends who didn't really know anything about formal meta game strats, I felt badass.
Considering that Baton Pass is one of the *only ways to counter Pursuit-Trapping* (as seen from 6:11-6:15, *Pursuit went after Baton Pass),* the full ban on the move has rubbed me as overkill and actually *restricted some options for healthy play.* At least let us use it for dry-passing (aka not using Baton Pass like the other pivot moves), that's not breaking anything and would actually make the metagame a bit healthier with additional Pursuit counter-play. It's the only pivot move that ignores Pursuit, Teleport only would ignore it in NatDex formats due to its extremely low priority. Making it arguably the best pivot move for things known for being vulnerable to Pursuit-Trapping that aren't bulky enough to make Teleport work. As a fan of VoltTurn(Pass) i also found thst it's the *only pivot move* that a good number of mons get. If we're talking about Pokemon unfairly punished by the full ban, Celebi is the poster-child of Baton Pass being better than U-Turn for pivoting. Gen5 is the only generation with a sensable Baton Pass restrictions alongside Gen3 (where its the *only Pivoting move in the format),* allowing for the healthy aspects of the move to shine those being: 1. Bypassing Pursuit-Trapping, some of the only counter-play for it. 2. Not being blocked by immunities (Volt Switch and Flip Turn, if a more reasonable ban was in place) 3. Not being blocked by Protect or most of it's variants 4. Not needing to target something, allowing it to bypass contact based items and abilities, pretty relevant prior to the wider distribution of Parting Shot. 5. Its solid distribution making it the only pivoting move that a good number of mons have access to. Last i checked the gen5 ban is Baton Pass+way to boost stats, meaning that dry-passing is legal.
The problem with this, even though I happen to agree with it, is that Smogon doesn't believe in "complex bans" (even though many exist). This means that they would rather ban Baton Pass as a whole than Baton Pass + something along with it. Using your drypass example, the counter argument here is what happens to pinch berries, or if your opponent tricks one onto you and your mon has BP. Do you lose if it activates on the turn you BP? Again, I think these situations are stupid and my argument is that running Trick + a pinch berry to cause an immediate forfeit is already limiting enough, so it should just be banned/enforced as best you can while keeping drypass legal, which again, is against their tiering policy (except when certain people risk having something they like banned).
Baton Pass not passing stat boosts......... do not be ridiculous, that is far too complex of an idea, people would simply be unable to grasp the concept, what an insanely complicated rule. Truly I've never seen a restriction so abstract and difficult, smogon will be doomed
Man, this brings back some memories. I remember making a Scolipede quick pass team in gen6 OU and climbing to the top 10 of the OU ladder shortly after Baton Pass was limited to one mon per team but before it got fully banned. Obviously it didn't look exactly like this team, but the general gist of it was the same: Try to get Scolipede that crucial single free turn it needs to setup, and then choose your favorite recipient to go to town.
'Time to fight' from 'Xenoblade Chronicles 1 DE' is the music that plays during the first minute or so into the video, I'd really recommend playing or at least listening to Xenoblade (music) cuz 90% of their songs are bangers.
There already is, technically... it's "funbro" a slowbro set that is designed to allow infinite battle (infinite sustain for both the enemy and the slowbro). It's not actually too strong but there is (or at least was) a rule that pokemon which create an infinite battle are not allowed, even in Anything Goes 😂
Every Generation before the current one is called an old gen. So the day a new game will be released, SV is also an old generation. Mostly semantics in terms of competitive Mons but you also have to consider that those games have been released more than a decade ago and 3DS games are also already called Retro in most discussions around Gaming
I think Baton Pass bans in low tiers makes sense because it's really easy to break those tiers wide open with good, selective stat passing. I also think that full Baton Pass teams are cheesy and genuinely low-skill. Getting started on those teams is a small flow-chart, but it's still way too easy to set up Ingrain and double Defense/SpDef and become unstoppable. The only reason I can think to ban all Baton Pass usage in an OU tier, however, is if there's not enough viable Roar/Whirlwind/Haze users in the tier and people who bring the counters to Baton Pass strategies wind up losing to everything else, which in most modern games is just not the case. The idea of banning it in Ubers is kind of annoying, especially since getting a pokemon like Scolipede into an Ubers battle multiple times seems like something you can't rely on.
I hit no.1 in gen6 Ubers ladder in the first week of last month, using a slightly different Scelipede BP team (with Mega Salamence). I do think BP is broken in Gen 5 and Gen 6 Ubers, but it might be fine in Gen 4 Ubers
I remember when baton pass was considered a gimmick. I ran a full baton pass team because I liked gimmicks, and I quickly realized this isn't a gimmick, this is insane. Glad it ended up getting banned.
I miss using scolipede and gorebyss in gen 6. Peoples reactions when they realized what was happening whas so funny. Well for those that didnt know amyway. Personally i always brought answers for stat passing if i wasnt doing it myself. But thats probably just my bias
I would argue that there is no way BP is as "hated" as Stall is. I've never once seen entire videos dedicated to "6 ways to beat Baton Pass" or forefeits immediately because "Ur team looked like a Baton Pass team." Meanwhile I have seen some of the nastiest parts of competitive pokemon, an otherwise welcoming and chill environment despite its reputation, absolutely dig in to people playing stall. Stall is much more hated than BP.
Well, this is a video about gen 6 ubers... and Eternatus is gen 8 This means the only legendary poison type was Arceus, but there are better types to give it rather than poison
Well about that I think Substitute is broken and not so much Baton Pass. There's also the move Psych up which copies stat changes but some moves like Haze, Psych up etc can't bypass Substitute. Ingrain I think should make Baton Pass fail since it makes you unable to switch so yeah I think the combo Baton Pass ingrain should make Baton Pass fail.
I just really dislike the "flow chart" style teams in general. I mostly play VGC and there's a very notorious Alolan Muk/Smeargle team that shows up every format that acts pretty similarly. If you have the right counters for it (mostly Taunt) the opponent basically can't do anything. If you don't have counters for it, you just kinda auto lose
We actually had a discussion about Batton Pass in ORAS on the Ubers Cord the day before this video was released, after it was used in an Ubers Winter League game. There is not really a common consensus but the topic is very polarizing, so one side completely hates it for being broken and uncompetitive and the other thinks it is a bad strategy. Darkrai and GeoXern have also been in the discussion as potentially overwhelming and having a negative influence on the tier. So it might not be too farfetched to expect some changes to the tier in the near future
If so can we have something more reasonable than an excessive full ban? The clip from 6:11-6:15, where Scoliede *bypasses being Pursuit-Trapped* is why I've never agreed with a fun ban on the move.
It allows things weak to Pursuit *some counter-play against Pursuit-Trapping,* yet instead of taking some nuance and allowing the healthy aspect of Baton Pass (the pivot aspect with a trait that no other pivot move has other than Teleport) they just went too far and punished mons like Celebi who would likely rather use Baton Pass as a pivot move than U-Turn.
There's a Mega Mawile set on Smogon that uses Baton Pass *solely as a pivot move,* the only way that it'll pass anything is if it gets hit by Swagger. At that point *it's your own damn fault* if you get swept by a Lum Berry physical setup sweeper that got an additional attack boost on top of it's own boosts.
*Here's my proposed complex ban:*
Baton Pass cannot be used in combination with direct ways to boost stats (abilities, moves or items) as well as moves that pass on positive effects to the recipient. For Gen7 I'd add particular Z-Crystals, namely the Eevee and Normal ones due to Extreme Eevoboost and Normaliuim Z having more than a few powerful boosting effects (no Z-Conversion+Baton Pass for example).
The only two exceptions would be moves with low percent chances to boost stats (like Meteor Mash) and abilities like Sap Sipper that give you a stat boost for taking a particular Type of attack.
You just can't bank on passing an attack boost from Meter Mash or an Ancientpower omiboost, the Sap Sipper one might be an issue, however that would require testing to see if they'd need to be banned as well.
I tried to keep this complex ban as simple as possible, targeting the problem areas while keeping the healthy aspects of the move.
Not to go too hard, but if there are no viable baton pass pokemon other than Scolipedeand Baton Pass is overpowered, Scolipede should at least be on the table for a ban. Not saying it should be banned or that Baton Pass is overpowered, but Scolipede as a whole package is much more than Baton Pass - It is Speed Boost + Baton Pass + Toxic Spikes + Iron Defense, which is a very specific and very powerful set of traits, even if its BST is trash.
@@AceAviations2 The complex ban concept you proposed is already a thing in other old gens, it's called Drypass. Issue isn't really with the community of the tiers but the senior staff who regulates these decisions, trying to enforce rule symmetry and disallow complex bans for the sake of making it look nicer on paper.
Regardless, a complex ban and a full ban might as well accomplish the same, since there are no other viable sets using it. MMawile and Blaziken are next to unviable and if they are used, they cannot fit a slot for Batton Pass. The article for the MMawile set you are referring to was made ages ago and was already niche at the time it was written. The meta has evolved a lot since then, with teams and strategies being ironed out. MMawile has completely fallen out of favour since then, seeing 0% usage in the last Ubers Premiere League for example. It would be for the best if there was a complex ban but seeing these circumstances, it's not likely.
@@beaky8138 Scolipede wouldn't be used at all if Batton Pass in it's current form were to be restricted, Batton Pass is really the only thing giving it a niche.
Either way, a ban on Batton Pass or Scoli would accomplish pretty much the same thing since like mentioned in the video, it is more or less the only Batton Pass user. It would look weird to have a UUBL Pokemon banned in Ubers but then again, we have done the same thing with Basculegion because we could not implement a complex ban on it's Last Respects. Hard to tell what it's going to be going forward or if there even will be action taken
@@Waruchuu Or just don't ban it and keep closer to the old uber minset batton pass isn't mega ray.
If I saw an omni boosted ingrained Xerneas I'd just retire
agreed, there's ways to deal with it but at that point you're mostly grasping at straws like a lucky crit, and even if you get the crit you're not guaranteed to win
What about Focus Sash Malamar with Topsy Turvy?
@@suu696the issue then is you’re running Malamar
@@KittyCatViolet379 Trading a Malamar for a Xerneas would still be a win, wouldn't it?
Haze exists
Freezai is the ranbats of pokemon players. You never know what format he's gonna play
The only reason he's famous is because he put "Here's why" at the end of his 2 minute long video titles. Good for him, but I still find it so funny.
When I was a kid, I built a gen 4 team that uses ninjask to baton pass speed boost and swords dance boosts to a no guard Machamp. Highly unoptimized, but among my friends who didn't really know anything about formal meta game strats, I felt badass.
Go Shedinja.
@@peshomighty5051No speed boost
Serenely imagining Xerneas turning into a different type with Baton Passed boosts and then Geomancying
Yeah, I'm thinking they might've excluded Xerneas from SV for a reason
why would you turn into a different type ? fairy is a great type
@@josenobi3022for tera blast coverage or just flipping specific matchups
@@zakariakhairi5111 I feel like its best tera would just be fairy for more damage, or keep tera for another pokemon
"serenely" 😅
0:19 Muk Monday sighted
This is insane, folks.
8:08 I love Diancie's Ability - Mega Bounce
Considering that Baton Pass is one of the *only ways to counter Pursuit-Trapping* (as seen from 6:11-6:15, *Pursuit went after Baton Pass),* the full ban on the move has rubbed me as overkill and actually *restricted some options for healthy play.* At least let us use it for dry-passing (aka not using Baton Pass like the other pivot moves), that's not breaking anything and would actually make the metagame a bit healthier with additional Pursuit counter-play.
It's the only pivot move that ignores Pursuit, Teleport only would ignore it in NatDex formats due to its extremely low priority. Making it arguably the best pivot move for things known for being vulnerable to Pursuit-Trapping that aren't bulky enough to make Teleport work.
As a fan of VoltTurn(Pass) i also found thst it's the *only pivot move* that a good number of mons get.
If we're talking about Pokemon unfairly punished by the full ban, Celebi is the poster-child of Baton Pass being better than U-Turn for pivoting.
Gen5 is the only generation with a sensable Baton Pass restrictions alongside Gen3 (where its the *only Pivoting move in the format),* allowing for the healthy aspects of the move to shine those being:
1. Bypassing Pursuit-Trapping, some of the only counter-play for it.
2. Not being blocked by immunities (Volt Switch and Flip Turn, if a more reasonable ban was in place)
3. Not being blocked by Protect or most of it's variants
4. Not needing to target something, allowing it to bypass contact based items and abilities, pretty relevant prior to the wider distribution of Parting Shot.
5. Its solid distribution making it the only pivoting move that a good number of mons have access to.
Last i checked the gen5 ban is Baton Pass+way to boost stats, meaning that dry-passing is legal.
They don't like doing bans like that
The problem with this, even though I happen to agree with it, is that Smogon doesn't believe in "complex bans" (even though many exist). This means that they would rather ban Baton Pass as a whole than Baton Pass + something along with it.
Using your drypass example, the counter argument here is what happens to pinch berries, or if your opponent tricks one onto you and your mon has BP. Do you lose if it activates on the turn you BP? Again, I think these situations are stupid and my argument is that running Trick + a pinch berry to cause an immediate forfeit is already limiting enough, so it should just be banned/enforced as best you can while keeping drypass legal, which again, is against their tiering policy (except when certain people risk having something they like banned).
Smogon be damned, you are right.
Everybody spamming "smogon doesn't do complex bans" needs to realize they should.
Baton Pass not passing stat boosts......... do not be ridiculous, that is far too complex of an idea, people would simply be unable to grasp the concept, what an insanely complicated rule. Truly I've never seen a restriction so abstract and difficult, smogon will be doomed
I always knew my goat Scolipede would be used
8:01 the Cyrus Melmetal revealed to be a Hilda with the ability Illusion
Man, this brings back some memories. I remember making a Scolipede quick pass team in gen6 OU and climbing to the top 10 of the OU ladder shortly after Baton Pass was limited to one mon per team but before it got fully banned. Obviously it didn't look exactly like this team, but the general gist of it was the same: Try to get Scolipede that crucial single free turn it needs to setup, and then choose your favorite recipient to go to town.
'Time to fight' from 'Xenoblade Chronicles 1 DE' is the music that plays during the first minute or so into the video, I'd really recommend playing or at least listening to Xenoblade (music) cuz 90% of their songs are bangers.
Contender for greatest video game ost of all time
Actually, this is Brilliant Wings, from Xenoblade Chronicles 3, the remade version of Time to Fight (Bionis Shoulder version)
@@kristophesiem5336 yep
2:28 just wait for there to be a mon too broken for AG
You could argue pure hackmons is analagous to AG which would put eternamax eternautus as too strong for AG.
There already is, technically... it's "funbro" a slowbro set that is designed to allow infinite battle (infinite sustain for both the enemy and the slowbro). It's not actually too strong but there is (or at least was) a rule that pokemon which create an infinite battle are not allowed, even in Anything Goes 😂
SCOLIPEDE SUPREMACY 🗣🗣🗣🔥🔥💯
It's Scolipede Sunday, folks
Yes, Scolipede 4 Ubers plz
Scolipede being my favourite pokemon my entire life makes me very ready for this
When Gen 6 is considered an “older generation” -_-
I remember playing it when I was a little child that didn't understand the type chart.
nearly 12 year old game. we are about as far from x and y as it was from ruby and sapphire
3DS era is no longer modern. All the signs have been showing. Y'all are just coping.
Every Generation before the current one is called an old gen. So the day a new game will be released, SV is also an old generation. Mostly semantics in terms of competitive Mons but you also have to consider that those games have been released more than a decade ago and 3DS games are also already called Retro in most discussions around Gaming
Is it the current generation? No?
Then it is an older generation
1:28 i thought that guy was pokevin 😂
I have no idea who you are, but you have earned my follow by using my favourite Pokémon to become number 1
Kangaskahn & Scolipede, Looking at literal gods duking it out...
Kangas: "Ima go join em."
🔥🔥
Let’s go scolipede! I love bug types!
I love scolipede so I’m glad to see it shine! Great video!
Insane to think that gen 6 is closer to diamond pearl platinum than scarlet and violet
My boy Rolly Polly was a main member of my Black team and it's great to see him get the respect he deserves
Thank you for bringing my favorite pokemon to the top.
Woulda loved to see a “to the top” series of this on freezailive
Ya'll are NOT ready for focus sash Malamar.
I think Baton Pass bans in low tiers makes sense because it's really easy to break those tiers wide open with good, selective stat passing. I also think that full Baton Pass teams are cheesy and genuinely low-skill. Getting started on those teams is a small flow-chart, but it's still way too easy to set up Ingrain and double Defense/SpDef and become unstoppable. The only reason I can think to ban all Baton Pass usage in an OU tier, however, is if there's not enough viable Roar/Whirlwind/Haze users in the tier and people who bring the counters to Baton Pass strategies wind up losing to everything else, which in most modern games is just not the case. The idea of banning it in Ubers is kind of annoying, especially since getting a pokemon like Scolipede into an Ubers battle multiple times seems like something you can't rely on.
Oh man seeing Arceus-Ground just unleashed a core memory. I adored Arceus-Ground in Gen 6 competitive.
I hit no.1 in gen6 Ubers ladder in the first week of last month, using a slightly different Scelipede BP team (with Mega Salamence). I do think BP is broken in Gen 5 and Gen 6 Ubers, but it might be fine in Gen 4 Ubers
I built a full Eevee baton pass team as a kid and it was extremely frustrating to my friends.
hearing "raquayza" over and over caused me psychic damage
SCOLIPEDE MY GOAT, exactly how I destroyed my friends in Gen 6 with speed boost baton pass silliness
As a certified Bug/Poison enjoyer, I approve of this video.
Such a fun meta, loved it when I was a lad
I remember using a similar strategy in Gen 4 Ubers with Ninjask. Good times.
I love this thumbnail lol
The most Goated Bug!
I remember when baton pass was considered a gimmick. I ran a full baton pass team because I liked gimmicks, and I quickly realized this isn't a gimmick, this is insane. Glad it ended up getting banned.
Finally, a Freezai video! Will there be recaps featuring some matches on your way to the top?
I miss using scolipede and gorebyss in gen 6. Peoples reactions when they realized what was happening whas so funny.
Well for those that didnt know amyway. Personally i always brought answers for stat passing if i wasnt doing it myself. But thats probably just my bias
YES
SCOLIPEDE
MY QUEEN
I find it weird that the community found Megaquaza to be more broken than Baton Pass.
8:27 the opponent's sprite changes for no reason??
happens when your opponent disconnects/leaves
SCOLIPEDE MY BELOVED 💜💜💜💜💜💜💜💜
Gen 6 Uber, old metagame
Go on
Reminder that the pokemon that got Baton Pass banned from Gen 7 Ubers was Eevee
The makima pfp for "skymin
I would argue that there is no way BP is as "hated" as Stall is. I've never once seen entire videos dedicated to "6 ways to beat Baton Pass" or forefeits immediately because "Ur team looked like a Baton Pass team."
Meanwhile I have seen some of the nastiest parts of competitive pokemon, an otherwise welcoming and chill environment despite its reputation, absolutely dig in to people playing stall. Stall is much more hated than BP.
I've been trying to find out how to optimize baton pass with the national dex for weeks
Has my search finally ended?
4:24 ETERNATUS, am I a joke to you??
Well, this is a video about gen 6 ubers... and Eternatus is gen 8
This means the only legendary poison type was Arceus, but there are better types to give it rather than poison
Comment just for the Xenoblade music jazz groove.
20 years into the future, showdown will only allow landorus-therian as a pokemon.
Scolipede kind of looks like Mega Rayquaza
Pick-Your-Team Ranbats
7:40 It also doesn't have Ingrain.
BUG TYPE BEST TYPE
Well about that I think Substitute is broken and not so much Baton Pass. There's also the move Psych up which copies stat changes but some moves like Haze, Psych up etc can't bypass Substitute. Ingrain I think should make Baton Pass fail since it makes you unable to switch so yeah I think the combo Baton Pass ingrain should make Baton Pass fail.
This guy really said there is no poison type legendary in gen 6, absolutely zero respect for poison Arceus.
OkidogiVEVO is a fire Name
Music at the beginning?
brilliant wings xenoblade 3
Why tf is king's rock banned?
Hi Freezai I am kekkker xd love the team?
If it's the same for everyone then it should be allowed
Nice.
I haven't watched the video yet but istg if it's baton pass
Well...
gen 6 ubers is the most random format ever
OkidogiVEVO is the funniest name ever
If you don't like baton pass *play the standard tier.*
LOL nobody runs Haze or Psycho Boost.
I just really dislike the "flow chart" style teams in general. I mostly play VGC and there's a very notorious Alolan Muk/Smeargle team that shows up every format that acts pretty similarly. If you have the right counters for it (mostly Taunt) the opponent basically can't do anything. If you don't have counters for it, you just kinda auto lose
plz make more vgc content
hi