The Hardest Knife Making Steel in the World! - How Hard is Hard?
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Hardness is an important concept in evaluating knife making steels. But what do we really mean by the term "hard?" In this video, knife maker Walter Sorrells explains the meaning of hardness in the context of knife making, shows a Rockwell hardness test, and discusses what hardness can tell us about the quality and usefulness of a knife.
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"I don't want to get too deep into the weeds of metallurgy" and "Pedantry Overload Alert"s. Walter, we clicked a 20+ minute UA-cam Video. That's obviously what we're here for. Take us down the bloody rabbit hole.
Yeah this is slow going. You can read all this remedial info in 5 minutes.
@@luceatlux7087yeah but to be able to understand comprehend and incorporate the information you need context.
@@lindboknifeandtool Simply, you're right and I would tend to totally agree.. This kind of comment seems very unusual for me. I almost never mind nuance. Without remembering the video, I must've been in some kind of off mood or something because i am a detail nut. From memory (other than maybe right here lol) i've never once been in a position where i got exasperated before the other people I'm around due to excessive detail.
The most drastic changes in complexion can occur with the smallest changes in makeup and esp understanding.
I'm always freaked out when I notice important service personnel (eg, mds in healthcare or mechanics with my car) have impatient personalities that seem prone to overlooking things.
I just bought 3 denim shirts... My journey begins!!!!!!
Your penis is now Rockwell 62.
@@mcdermottpeter bill Clinton would deny that, lol
Hahahahahahahaa
ekvr
Walter, I like it. My 7 year old grandson like it too. He asked me to buy him some Play-doh, I asked him to buy me some steel.
I like how he knows what click bait is😂
Its not exactly rocket science...
Pretty sure he's really in touch with internet culture. especially if hes uploading stuff to youtube. we dont give him enough credit.
Xx LelzXD420 xX wtf this is straight up insulting
Mr Cow it's not supposed to be I love this man's vids I just thought like a blacksmith wouldn't be that much into the internet. I'm sorry dude calm ur ass tho.
GoodmanDontLai yeah ur right
You are probably the first person in history to put Play Doh on a belt sander.
not to mention getting it red hot in the furnace!
My nephew did, about 20 years ago, among other inventive places.
@@JSGilbert you should definitely remind him of this, was telling my younger brother embarrassing things he did as a child just today, we both had a good laugh.
You earned yourself a big thumbs up for the Bill Clinton joke.
Captain Caveman I came here for this comment
lol me to a ripper one lololol
I can't figure out if we are Clinton fans here or not
I think we're more Monica Lewinsky fans, aren't we? ;-)
Mike Morton Monica sucks..............
As a fisherman I like high carbon, softer steel. It is easy to sharpen to very sharp for preparing the fish. Fish isn't exactly hard, so it also keeps the sharpness fairly well. Needs to be taken care, clean and dry well, since it rusts very easily (blood is bad man).
Just putting extra emphasis to right tools for the task at hand.
Good video, thank you!
I appreciate the more theory-driven video. I always enjoy your how-to videos as well, but knowing a little bit more of the behind the scenes knowledge is great too
Not only did I watch the whole video, but I actually enjoyed it. You have a gift of making the complex simple to understand. Thank You.
Good stuff Walter, thanks for taking the time.
Thank you for all the great information in this video! Easy to understand when you explain it all!
Hi Walter, i am watching your video's for over 2 years now and learned a lot, thank you for sharing your knowledge!!! Kind regards from the belgian Ardennes, Yves.
I like how you actually went and bought play-doh just for the sake of landing a joke. Now that's commitment.
maybe he has kids or grandkids... lol, I'm pretty sure, they'll be crying to their moms, mommy, grandpa took my play dough
cringes at weebness
@@Yonatan24 lol
Finally someone with the education & experience to explain heat treating in all its value, not just hardness. I worked in a heat treat machine shop long before I knew that knives could be made in a back yard shop. There smart people who only know about hardness, do not know what RC hardness means. they use a file (62rc?) to test for hardness. They never heard of air or water harden steel, just oil harden steel. Thank you.
LN2 hardening is where it's at ;)
Well...that cleared up all of my questions...
cant believe u actually took the time to get some playdo and fashion a knife out of it respect the dedication :)
Shut the fuck up uncle Rico
Wow, that was an amazing video. Thank you for posting, I watched it until the very end even though metallurgy and knife-making are far removed from my usual interests -- you just have a way with making the subject matter so interesting! I'm immediately subscribing and look forward to your future videos!
liked and subscribed. this is what makes selecting a particular knife or steel interesting and necessary to determine what you can or cannot expect from the knife...
Thank you for the lesson!
Very professional. A good source of info. Thanks for that.
Thank you ! Best overview ever . You are a great teacher of practical knowledge
Rockwell hardness actually tells you a lot about the steel, particularly if you take the time to understand some basic differences between common types of steel.
word salad
@@tonymengela3575 If you don't know anything, sure.
@@adifferentangle7064 no, knowing the obvious is why I said what I did. Just masturbation of the obvious
@@adifferentangle7064 lmfao. No you just spouted of same old armchair bs just to make a comment. spent to many episodes of forged in fire and got your badge lmfao
I was surprised that I knew so much already.
From all the chemistry classes ive taken, ive always just assumed how the different elements in a hard or soft steel worked. You have now confirmed all of my assumptions.
It is an ancient skill set, it is not rocket science.
I don't think medieval blacksmiths knew about the crystal lattice formations in steel when they made their swords fam.
Though, they did under stand about the grain pattern. There is an old practice of hardening a test piece of steel and breaking the peiece to look the "grain" formations in the fracture.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Awesome information and testing. Very helpful!
way by so negative?
how is that negative? I'm saying that this video was helpful
Sharp Works
Huh?
Thanks to you, Mr. Sorrells, I am now going to include a Science Hammer in my daily carry.
Great info. Learned a lot of great info and tips.
Thank you sir, your videos are very informative and concise.
5:20 in shop class we call the drill press Bill Clinton because it... drills things
That was helpful thank you very much
Great video....well explained and filmed very well.
Great data. Thanks.
Thank you for the great video. I learned a lot.
Amazing video. Well done.
Finally! I've been preaching this same thing for years. All these guys blathering on about their Rockwell 60 knives as if my 56-58's aren't as good. But every time we go out to the bushcrafting events, mine always come back just as sharp and intact , and sometimes more so, than their store bought 60's. Thanks for having my back, Walter !!!
what model you got?
My opinion is it depend on the user.. if you gave knife to a "caveman type user" that dont know how to treat knife properly , even a maxamet will dull and chip in a second..
You’re a good teacher, which is actually pretty rare.
It should also be noted that some cutting applications call for a slightly softer steel for better edge holding. A job that may make a harder edge chip may may not damage a slightly softer edge.
Excellent presentation!!
Hey Walter, nice video. Very informative (if you read between the diplomacy). I think a very important point to have left people with is that the same HRC value will always give you the same metallurgical properties for the same piece of stock. The same value has different properties for different compositions of stock. The HRC test is an excellent scale measure in determining where your stock metal is at any point in time. Excellent tutorial.
Very good explanation!
From a guy that retired as a metallurgist doing Aerospace Research, I give you a big thumbs up. I was waiting on the toughness part... LOL. For knives, its all about the edge.
Informative thanks👍
Great information.
Keep them coming!
Very good Sir. Thank you.
Great information and Video!
Great Videos, sir. Actually I wouldn't have mind the rest of the in-depth explanation at all.
Appreciate the knowledge love the humor man great video
nice one!!!
thanks for theese good informations. i've learnd a Lot!!
more of Stuff like that, please!
Thanks very helpful
thanks for that low down on metallurgy. Must appreciated.
Great video, very informative and easily digested. Great editing as well. Keep it up bud. Definitely subscribing to you.
I was about to say “Ha ha, Walter, you didn’t test the Rockwell Hardness of that Play-doh.” But then you did! You always seem to be at least two steps ahead of my thinking.
This video is so well put together. The philosophy here is deep!
This could be Knowledge to the infinite! At least it lenses perception for that...
Excellent video, great information.
I really enjoyed the video. I wanted to hear more :)
it made sense to me as you explained it.
I love my O1 but it's so tough that it's a pain to grind at times. It's nice and springy yet is still hard as anything I can find around. The Vanadium, Chromium and Tungsten carbides are very wear resistant and will destroy grinding belts very fast. Once sharp it only requires minor touch ups to bring the edge back.
Great info
I've gained more useful information watching your videos than any other. thanks for all the great tip
Good video. Mad play-doh skills!
I loved this vid thx for the info
Good video, but would have liked to have seen more practical demo of toughness, such as rolling the edge of a knife with too high an HRC across a hardened steel nail and watching the edge chip and notch ... perfect illustration of the tradeoff between hardness and toughness. Anyone with a jeweler's loop and a disposable razor blade can mimic the result without ruining a knife too.
Keep up the great work, and good tip on the technical data sheets.
great vid, sounds much simpler than what i was told at school about steel :-)
I think the best summary starts around 17:30. HRC needs context.
1095 at 62 HRC, you have a slicer with no toughness.
VS.
M4 at 64 HRC, you still have a very tough knife.
There are always considerations and trade-offs, HRC suggests more as your understanding increases.
you talkin' 'bout the Clinton bitch ?
robert marques HRC ( Hardness Rockwell C scale)
dispatcher7007 I disagree, M4 performs exceptionally well at low angles.
dispatcher7007 12 degrees per side, for most pocket knife users increasing to 15 per side is more than adequate leaving very little chance for damage.
Yeah, M4 can rust. I think for non stainless steel it's about the best.
Great video as usual!
Walter great illustration. Also hardness can be illustrated comparing a cup of water and a cup of ice.
I really enjoy and appreciate your videos, thank you!
Great video! It would be very interesting to see more Vids of you talking about metallurgy and other theoretical aspects of knifemaking.
Greetings from Germany!
Finally! some materials science :D
Good one Walter. Thanks
Awesome...enjoy the info
I do love this video!
I want a giant scientific hammer... holy shit I want that.
a rockwell tester? lol
A giant scientific hammer :(
nope, the Charpy thingy
You mean Izod and Charpy?
HEY STUPID ONE! HOLY GOD!
You are really awesone :) ... i am sad that my teacher of metallurgy make me this
subject so hard and confusing. Now i can see that even metallurgy can be fun and useful :) thanks
So I am guessing that you would like a harder steel for a skinning knife for the edge retention and a slightly less hard steel for an outdoors/tactical style of knife or machete for the durability?
Yes, the type of steel plays a large part in this too.
Travis Layh I do not skin many animals, but do you want edge retention, easy sharpening, flexibility, or chip resistance? Which is the most important? For my filet knives I want to be able to sharpen them to a razor edge and I will likely hone and polish before each use. I also want the metal to be flexible and springy. I wouldn't want this steel to be super hard with all the fancy edge protecting carbides because I can't bring a belt sander out with me to sharpen on a rowboat. (that last part was hyperbole, but I hope you get my point)
I do skin a number of animals. Filleting knifes have to be super thin a flexible to work properly but are also relatively easy to maintain. I am assuming that you would want a bit of a harder knife for big game skinning so it holds an edge longer and you are not running to the sharpener every 5 minutes. This would explain why so many hunting knives are stainless or have a higher carbon content. The grey area for me is more the outdoors/tactical knives. A harder knife would keep an edge longer but sometimes you end up abusing those knives more so a little softer might not hurt. Do you look for a knife with differential hardening for that use or would you err on the side of less hard for increased durability? So, 1095 or stainless for hunting knives, 1080 or something for tactical and I don't even think I would ever consider trying to make my own filleting knife. I have not looked into it but I would imagine that you would not even want to try hardening it due to its thickness and flexibility requirement.
Blade geometry and use vary, I've literally beaten the spine of one of my knives to the point of plastic deformation while cutting . Knife is D2 and 58-60 HRC. The truth is that you need to understand the limits of the knives/steels you use.
Makes sense, was hoping that there was a general direction to start in but maybe looking for some books and some more research into the finer nuances would be the way to go.
I really like super hard Roselli UHC steel (66-68 HRC). Some Japanese hard knife steels are also really good.
The technical discussion is much appreciated. Thanks for the info an inspiration.
Understanding steel alloys is VERY important for a knifemaker IMO. For example, I make these big bad cleavers out of 3v because its crazy tough even at 60 hrc and holds an edge due to the vanadium. 3v being known for its toughness makes that an obvious choice. However 3v is also fantastic for edc style folders because being so tough you can take the edge pretty thin without fear of failure.
Great video Walter. Thanks for spending the time clearing that up. This question is for everyone including Walter. I started teaching myself to make knives a few months ago. Ive been using O-1 steel. My question is what is your opinion of this steel.
Walter, it's not chromium carbides that make stainless steel stainless, it's the chromium oxide layer on the surface. In fact it's a challenge to alloyers to not form chromium carbides, so that less chromium can be used in the alloy as it is expensive.
Great video otherwise.
Baleyg
Also, if SS hold an edge longer than carbon steels it's because the edge doesn't corrode as quick as carbon steel. In fact corrosion is the reason razor blade dull not your hair.
I was going to say the same thing. for example D2 steel has around 12% chromium in it but most of that is tied up in the chromium carbides with very little "free" chromium, the result is that D2 isnt a true stainless steel and will rust fairly easily when compared to steels that have more free chromium. however If you lower the carbon content of d2 steel it will become more stainless since less of the chromium will form carbides which results in more free chromium....
I hope that makes sense to everyone
@@ArtBrown06 I had seen something about storing the razor head in mineral oil in between shaves and making them last longer
How much for your custom Playdough knives? Can you do a pattern weld?
LOL. Yeah, sign me up for a 14" chef knife in tiger eye marble checkerboard damascus play-doh, hardened to HRC zero (0).
... which, after tempering, would be at what HRC ? ... xd
MerkWares...your either a dumbass Or a smart ass. I'd like to think your not that freaking stupid, but just in case you are.... "it was a visual ad." Thing more.
MerkWares is neither a dumbass or a smartass, he's a comedic genious
Don't kid yourself. He "borrowed" it from one of his grandchildren. And he didn't ask permission. ;)
Moreover - the desired qualites of the steel depends on what your gona do with the knife. A kitchen knife usual have different steel compared to a bush-knife.
And a piece of copper is no good for either one.
normally I hate clickbait but you did seem apologetic about it and the video was very interesting. good job
Great Video.
I wish you give us some example of how you decide for different blades for different applications.
No joke about some steals shattering like glass when they get too hard. I've seen it. Not in a knife but in other applications. The strangest thing to see how the broken pieces fit back together with no bends in them.
The only steel that will shatter is high alloy tool steels. A-1 A-2 O-1 O-2 S-7 D-2 etc.. When you do the initial quench the steel forms the crystals. Then to be usably you must drew the temper to your desired hardness. The harder the temper the less tough the steel. If you take A-2 and just quench it you can get as high as 65 to 68 Rockwell. But that is not usable in that particular alloy. It must be drawn back to 55 to 57 max or it will fracture along the crystalline structure. Drawing starts around 325 degrees F. and goes to around 750 F. Cold rolled steel will not harden. It can only be case hardened with something like cyanide or some other solution rich in carbon. 1018 and 4140 are the lowest alloys that will temper to any degree.
Free Golem I dropped a file once and it shattered
FALpwn A common problem with files. They are made from cheaper alloys as a general rule. So to get the hardness up they are brittle. S-7 is a common alloy used in files. Now with China tools you are sing custom alloys that are just crap.
I've seen where an old file was transformed into a dagger. Scary sharp.
I made a knife out of a file, and I purposely just used the file as it is. Yeah, I used a bench grinder, belt sander, air sander, you name it. It was thee biggest pain in the ass to shape and polish, but after a few years (!) I finally was happy with it. The thing takes a razor edge and chops through small trees with ease. Nonetheless, I made damn sure never to drop it because i know it'll just shatter. But it looks really cool and to me, it's just a testament to doing something most people don't do, and I see why, haha. But this was worth every second of the 20 minutes. Thank you for making this video. :)
Yeah, old Music 👍🏻
I like it. Good Job and thank you for that Video 👌🏻
this video was f.... awesome
a diamond has 10 mohs or 100 rockwell....did you know that? the diamond is the reference.
wow thats cool thanks
great video
How much for the Playdough knife?
Good stuff.
im anxious to see how these new alloys they are making turns out
Back in the 90's there was a hewhaw about molecular aligning the steel. Whatever became of that?
Explain to me why I get a ghost line on my knives after I heat treat. its visible on the main bevel and it only shows up when I either polish or sandblast my blades. thanks, Joe.
My understanding in general is that "hardness" refers to edge retention of the blade, and "toughness" refers to ability to withstand chipping or breaking of the blade edge. Ultimately, the use of the knife will determine the value of the hardness or toughness when purchasing a knife. For example, if I want a bushcraft knife for batoning or chopping a lot, I do not want a knife with a high hardness number, say 63 for example, as it may be prone to blade chipping. However, if I am just slicing meat or fileting a fish--not cutting bone--I may want a high hardness number, say 63, since it will retain the edge well before sharpening is needed. The quality of heat treatment, the edge grind, and the knife's intended use all figure into the overall consideration when examining the "hardness" of a knife. I enjoyed the precise examination of the methods used in determining this process. Good job.
I enjoyed the video , but I've been testing my new knives by beating (batoning) the crap out of them, seeing how long the edge holds and whether it chips or rolls. If it doesn't hold up or sharpen well, I give it to a Grand Kid for Christmas. Keep the videos coming! Thanks.
Have you found that multiple draws help to refine the grain structure more than a single one? With O1 at least that seems to be the case for us.
So I'm planning on making some hunting knives for my Uncle and my father. Whats are some good steels/metals I should take a look at or which do you recommend? Price isn't really a factor but I also like getting the most bang for my buck. I plan on making the handle out of Kirinite or Micarta (that I will blend myself) and possibly acid etching a mural on it. I'm in no hurry as they will be hunting season gifts this fall or Christmas at the latest.