1 big myth busted about HRC hardness for your knife
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- Опубліковано 2 чер 2024
- Is a 80CRV2 carbon steel or is it AEBL stainless steel better for forging? In this knife making video, Graham Clarke of Clarke Knives talks to us about knowing the difference between carbon steel, stainless steel and powder metallurgy (powder-met) steels. We talk about AEB-L stainless, 17N20, 80CRV2 carbon steel, 1084 carbon steel, and many other vanadium-type of steels. At the end of this informative knife making video, we also discuss why going over 61 HRC can be dangerous for your knife.
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I can't begin to tell you how many times I've had to explain that softer and tougher is often better than hard and brittle and that edge retention is often more dependent on the steel formulation than the hardness.
It's good that you made a video on this topic as no one seems to listen the first 100 times you explain it to them. Now they can watch it 101 times until they understand,
And yes, I've worked with high speed steel and seen it shatter when dropped on a hard surface, with what that stuff costs... it's a pain you won't forget soon.
Thanks RJ! Happy to hear you enjoyed the video! Thanks as well for your input as this helps us make better videos each time.
Тим часом більшість складних ножів зроблених на замовлення роблять з порошкових сталей, які у більшості не розкривають свого потенціалу менш ніж на 62hrc, а деякі стали типу cmp s125v чи m398 розкриваються ближче до 64hrc. Це доводять і результати тестів. Після кратно більш складного процесу термічної обробки тести ножі показують ріст до х2 по кількості відрізаного канату до моменту поки ніж не перестає різати папір. При однаковому куті загострення, зведенні і геометрії ножа. Отже твердість має значення, але не для усіх сталей і також має значення додаткові процедури які використовувались при термообробці(кріо, ковка, термоциклювання).
Також з великою крихкість сталей боряться тим, що ламінують твердий сердечник двома більш пружними і більш корозійної стійкими сталями, а для збільшення стійкості ріжучої крайки підбирають кут загострення і тип ріжучої крайки (звичайний чи лінза).
Я дуже не задоволений більшістю серійної сталі на стержості 58-60 m390 на такій твердості взагалі витрачені зря кошти, крім того сталь на цій твердості надто пластична і її важко правильно заточити із за пластичного заусенця що отримується на фінішних етапах загострення і не хоче виламуватись, а потім ріжуча крайка одразу заминаєтся при важкій роботі.
Вибачаюсь за довгий текст. В англ сегменті інтернету є сайт "steel nerd" там доволі багато гідної інформації, хоча і термічна обробка сталей на тестах часто не дотягує до рівня гарних ножів на замовлення ІМХО
@@user-cq9wm4sg1f You are quite correct that higher hardness will provide superior edge retention, but in the case of certain knives, that isn't the issue. Kitchen knives are often kept softer because women tend to drop them on a tile floor. My wife literally broke a knife tossing it into the sink. And yes up to that point it had remarkable edge retention. I also dropped a very expensive Swedish straight razor and it shattered like glass, so it isn't always women who will kill fine knives.
In the case of tactical folding knives, you can NEVER have a blade that breaks when your life depends on it and you also don't want to make it thicker or heavier than necessary. When you are only likely to make very few actual cuts with the knife, toughness is literally your first concern. In fact, I have carried a tactical folder for 4 years now with the factory edge. When I want to cut something tough, I use a different knife, so my tactical knife is razor sharp when I need it. I chose a slightly softer S35VN which still had good edge retention but mostly, won't break.
I understand your point of view, edge retention is critical in some applications. My straight razor was truly great and held an amazing edge, but now that it's in 5 larger pieces and several smaller shards, it's just a very expensive memory.
And yes, laminated steels are good for some things as are edge hardened blades or blue backed blades as well as super steels that are custom heat treated... but there's a point where these kinds of knives become too expensive to carry and lose or throw away.
Choosing the right steel, involves knowing what you are going to use it for, choosing the right steel for the blade shape, and making it fit into a reasonable budget. It's always a compromise.
There is no perfect hardness for any steel, there is no perfect steel and there is no perfect knife, that said most knives will do most jobs within limits. I hope that this translates correctly to your language. If it doesn't feel free to ask me to clarify.
@@RJ-vb7gh Thank you for your response! I understand English, but I find it difficult and time-consuming to write lengthy texts in the language, especially when technical terms are involved. I appreciate your perspective and fully grasp your point of view. Overall, I concur with your assessment. However, my approach to carrying knives differs slightly. I perceive my pocket knife solely as a cutting tool, and I prioritize its ability to maintain sharpness while cutting wood, cardboard, and other materials. For this reason, I favor the custom M398 steel on my ParaMilitary 2 or the CPM M4 on my Endura. When venturing out of city, I opt for the AD-15 instead of the ParaMilitary 2 or pack a fixed blade made from carbon steel, 8Cr13MoV, or D2 steel with a lower hardness rating.
@@user-cq9wm4sg1f In the woods, I carry a WW2 vintage combat/utility knife made out of some stupidly durable and hard carbon steel of which the composition has long been lost to history. It keeps a great edge, punches right through cans and can chop wood like an old hatchet. Sadly it's too pitted to be of historical value, but it's a great tool for everything outdoors.
As I am often in dangerous areas, I carry a more tactical folder as a last line of defense. It's a very pointy and thin blade for piercing and the S35 VN is kept softer so it won't break. It's a flipper for fast deployment, It's still fine for occasional cutting tasks, but too thick behind the edge for fine slicing. Mostly it's very rust resistant and doesn't need any care. For more work related tasks, I have a RAT 1 in D2. Still OK as a defensive knife, but not the best for the job. I'm not sure I'd use either folder to open steel cans or chop wood though.
For the most part all 3 knives can pretty easily do the job of the others.
I personally prefer 440C to 8Cr,. it holds a slightly better edge and is more rust resistant. Neither one is great. I suppose 9 Cr would fit into the same category.
I like M390 and M4, but I'm pretty much retired and don't do that much heavy cutting anymore. They are "nice to have" steels, that would last a lifetime for someone 40 years younger than I am. And that's where cost comes in.
It all comes down to someone's use case. Too many people buy expensive toys they have no need for and anyone can spend stupid amounts of money on what they don't need. Knowing blade design, steel composition, heat treatment and your particular use case will insure you get the right tool for the right job without spending money you can better spend on beer or dancing girls.
A salute and respect sent from a mechanical engineer and knife maker of 53 years. Thanks.
Hi Quantum Mechanic thanks for your feedback and insights!
Finally some sense on hardness vs application and steel type! great video. I have seen even machettes advertised as being 60+ HRC thats just plain stupidity.
Hi Pim thanks for the comment. In all honesty, I’m not surprised a lot of makers get it wrong. I didn’t know about most of these myself until Graham helped me understand. He’s an excellent chap and I’m happy that he is sharing his knowledge with us all.
one way of softening (annealing) a spine of a knife, thoroughly harden as normal, temper and then set up the knife with the entire edge in cold water and run a gas torch across the spine. Don't allow the colour to change much, being careful, but you do need to see at least blues and browns to come in all along the spine. Allow to air cool/normalize.
I can see that working. Have you done it yourself? I can imagine the setup is a bit awkward.
Overly pedantic "Well, actually..." to follow. Apologies in advance.
Getting a sterl to blue is way too cold to anneal steel (using the strict technical definition). You'd be getting to 400-500C or so? It'll certainly temper back a plain carbon steel and give the spine a lot more toughness but if you're a stickler for terms you've not annealling it. That's done around the 800C range.
@@GemAppleTom yes I've done it myself, it's not that hard to set up, you just have to use a few clamps to stabilize the work properly and away you go.
Love this blokes no nonsense approach. Can be easy to be swept away with numbers on a page 👍
Cheers Razorback! Happy to hear you’ve enjoyed the video! We got tonnes of Graham chatting and sharing his knowledge on the channel (amongst other makers that we feature) so hope to see you another video!
- Vinz
It is so great to listen to someone that understands metallurgy. Being a toolmaker myself, I question when some knife makers use the PM or exotic tool steels. And then heat treat them self. They do not have the equipment or the control that a good heat-treating business has, so the knife maker is unable to get the full potential from the expensive piece of tool steel.
Cheers Michael! I appreciate the comment!
A shop heat treating in big batches gives more variation than if I do a single blade.
I mean. What's needed besides a kiln for temp control, a proper way to quench, and possible subzero, or cryogenic treatment capabilities?
@@_BLANK_BLANK Once you get the procedure down salt baths can be helpful.
Getting proper equipment isn't a problem anymore. If there are tried and true protocols for the specific steel heat treating done by a small manufacturer or someone specialized in hardening knife steels will most probably gain better and most important way more reliable results than giving it to a large heat treatment business who almost always just throws it in a big vacuum oven with lots of other stuff using parameters that are somehow ok-ish.
Might be a hit but might be a miss as well, been there and done that - wouldn't recommend it, lots of f'd up work. And don't get me started about the warped mess I got back 50% of the time.
Small knife manufacturers on the other hand - I always got exactly what I asked for and they usually are quite accurate in assessing their capabilities ime. No warping whatsoever.
But that's Germany, not the US. Might be different over there.
So true, sir, about the part that edge quenching carbon spring steel is on point! In South East Asia, the preferred recycled steel for forging is carbon spring steel, and all of the blacksmiths choose this tech. I learned a lot about steel today.
Very nice content. Thanks for sharing knowledge!
You’re very welcome! Nice to have you in our channel and we hope to see you in another video!
I'm loving the videos with Graham. The more the better !!
Hi Menelik! Thanks for the comment and I shall let Mr. Clarke know! He is extremely helpful and full of character at the same time! Thanks for watching and I hope you’re enjoying the content we’re putting out!
Cheers for the content! Great to hear from a true man, who has seen most and willing to share his knowledge!
Thanks for taking time to drop a comment! I hope you’ll enjoy the other videos we have!
I've found a lot of culinary knives are controversial as to hardness as commercial knives go. Before I started making my own, I bought my mother a set of calphalon knives. And the fit and finish are amazing, but she told me and i discovered that they are extremely soft and pretty much have to be sharpened every time you use them. I checked them with the hardness files and they came up to 45-50 HRC. A ten dollar old hickory carbon is better. Interesting video.🤝 Hello from across the pond.
Hi Mel! Thanks for sharing your story! Fascinating to hear everyone’s input in this topic and hopefully you’ll enjoy the next set of videos coming too!
I was about to post what you said but saw your comment. Absolutely on the button. 59-63 HRC only saw in high end custom made knives (really blows my brain), never encountered anything above HRC 50 on commercial ones.
@@ComboMuster Being in the 60 range is asking for dangerous chips and snaps. It's not worth the complaints, refunds, extra defective blades, and injury lawsuits.
50 to 55 is comfortable. 60 from a mass producer is irresponsible.
An artisan/craftsperson can go higher, but the price and risk factor has to go up
Sixty years ago, when I took a Meat Science course in MEAT CUTTING AND ANIMAL slaughter, they recommended knives made of 1070 to 1085 carbon steel with an HRC of 54 or 55. Looking at the knives used in Meat Science labs today, they still use Carbon steel knives with an HRC as high as 58, but 54 and 55 are still the recommendations.
Time is truly money in the meat-packing trade. If super steels with high HRCs saved time, they would be in wide use by now. Instead, the knives have been unchanged for 60 years. The wooden handles have been replaced by plastic that does away with crevices in the scales for sanitation.
If you need a sharp knife all day long, it takes less time to keep a blade made of 1080 at RCH 55 using a butcher's steel and an occasional trip to the oil stones than a harder knife.
Most useful info on the topic I have seen yet. People always chasing latest greatest super steels.
Thanks Will!
Keep up the good vids that hurt people's feelings ! @@UKBladeshow
I know right! You can use 1075 steel and it cuts the meat same as this "rex 121" and it even rusts the same. Another thing i dont get is; why would anyone want a car or gas stove?? They can use a horse/cart and wood fire, it does the same thing! People and their desire for technology....
Very good channel, thanks for posting!
Thanks Robert!
Brilliant information as per usual graham 👍
Hi Dal! Thanks for watching and glad to hear you enjoy Graham ranting on :D he is an absolute wonder and I'm extremely glad to be able to share this video with you!
- Vinz
Thank you for this information ❤
With pleasure! Graham is a great guy and happy to be able to share these things with you!
Just watched this video and I totally agree with you
Just as a little background I run a small business sharpening cutlery so I have more than average knowledge of knife edges and for most applications 60 Rockwell is pushing it
58-59 is perfect
Softer and an edge will roll over with hard use but 60 starts to get chippy
Thanks for your comprehensive response. Really appreciate this. Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoy all the other videos that we make as well.
Great information.. glad I stumbled I to your channel .
Thanks for taking time to drop a comment! Glad you enjoyed it!
I am experienced certified machinist . previous job making suntec Rockwell hardness tester testing blocks . I made some assumptions as to hardness with blade steel also . I have learned .ore about tempering . And from you learned how stainless maybe a great choice for "camping /hunting" .. never thought about that
I'm really enjoing those, need more Graham :D
Cheers Les! He is just a treasure-chest of knowledge on steel. I feel really privileged that he is sharing this knowledge with us and I hope you found it valuable and insightful for your own work too!
So interesting to hear different opinions, I am a metallurgist and bladesmith myself and I feel more comfortable in the 62-68 HRC. I almost exclusively make carbon steel culinary knives, thinly ground to 0.2 mm or less behind the edge.
Hello again mate! Was waiting for you actually to watch this vid & hear your thoughts 🤩 like you, I am a carbon steel knife guy myself. Cheers bud and speak with you again soon!
68??!
Never heard of that... at 0.2mm, is that even possible, even for a yanagiba, without instantaneously chipping?
I'd have to see that with my own eyes...
@@TheChzoronzon fujiwara knives are hardened to 64-65 (shirogami) and 65-66 (aogami super). Zdp189, hap40 or maybe even sg2 could go up to 68+ i guess, but only with careful use on a rubber cutting board
@@michael_the_chef Exactly...never heard of plain carbon steel reaching 68 rhc
I don't know how you are testing the blade hardness, but I'm pretty sure you're not getting 68hrc. Maybe your method of testing isn't accurate. That's pretty much unheard of.
This is a great series of videos. Some down to earth logic based in reality - that is what I am hearing.
Cheers bud! Lovely to see our friends from Canada watching the UK Bladeshow! Hope to speak to you again soon on our other vids!
Love these videos with Graham, they're really informative and also get me thinking. One of the things I wonder is just how deep the nuance goes behind what you can get across in a seven minute video. If I understand correctly, high hardness means high yield stress so higher resistance to rolling a fine edge but this can be in vain if there are a lot of large carbides making the edge prone to chipping. So certain steels, those with a lower volume of fine carbides, might support a higher hardness than a steel with coarse/high volume carbides. Another compromise in the decision making? Magnacut's popularity stems from an unusually high toughness at high (63-64HRC) hardness and fine vanadium carbides from what I've read. Happy to be corrected by better knowledge and experience!
Hi Rob and great point. I'll be speaking with Graham soon about your query but what you are saying sounds plausible (compromise with the higher resistance to rolling an edge). I'll get back to you later this week about it if that's OK bud?
@@UKBladeshow Any time is good for new info, Vinz :)
Everyday is a school day 🥳🥳🥳
Now I'm intrigued too!! I would really appreciate the knowledge :)
Cheers
Thank you for showing a picture of wafers. It made it very clear what he meant by “wafer thin.” I would have been totally lost otherwise.
You’re very welcome. We absolutely love comments like this in the channel as your comprehensive technical feedback helps us make better videos.
Many thanks.
Any time!
Very good. I think one thing that's completely forgotten by common knife makers is to never grind hard steel dry.
Almost everyone grinds hardened steel on a dry grinder and dip in water for cooling. One of the worst things you can do to steel. Embrittling the steel dunking it water while loosing hrc grinding without cooling.
Hi thanks for the tip. Definitely worth considering your suggestion.
@@UKBladeshow Definitely is! It is quite surprising the difference in edge retention. Same with grinding. You notice it almost immediately the difference it makes! It's such a big difference that I feel like it's more important than having a precise heat treating system, as dry grinding basically ruins a good heat treat.
Also, historically speaking, hardened steel was always ground with water cooling!
@@ThomasRonnberg Knife making hobbyist here. I understand the concept, but I'm simply not able to invest in a water cooled grinder.
That said, I only make a handful of finishing passes after heat treat, and I grind with bare hands, never allowing the blade to heat up enough to cause discomfort in my fingers.
I do my final sharpening on stones, not by dry grindind.
I also get that the thin edge gets hotter faster, but I truly do not think it makes a big difference in my experience. And I know there are plenty of pros who dry grind after HT without issue as well.
Never had any issues with my knives yet, so I don't see how it could be *THAT* big of an issue. Certainly not more important than the heat treat itself.
...just my 2 cents.
@@LastBastian there is definitely some hrc loss on the surface, fingers will not feel it. The second you use water cooling on a grinder against hardened steel you will feel the hardness and abrasion resistance difference. It's standard industry practice to use coolant for hardened steels in machining, and it has been for over a thousand years. The worst thing to do really is dipping the blade in water to cool it down while grinding dry hardened. That embrittles the steel.
It's very easy to setup a water cooling system for your belt grinder, and very cheap. It keeps the belts clean (especially if you mix soap), dramatically extends the life of the belt (the adhesive on the belt stays cold), keeps everything cold, you can push much harder, it's much faster for grinding, there is no dust. It's overall superior.
@@ThomasRonnberg Oh I've no doubt it's superior, and the optimal way to go. If I made knives for a living I'd invest.
My reality is using a beat up $150 2x42 Craftsman that I modded with an angle grinder and duct-tape.
Managed to make some pretty decent knives over the years IMO. (Sent out for pro heat treat, generally 60rc) And some of the uglier ones I intentionally beat the hell out of just to see what they'd take. Never had any chipping or breakage, and edge retention is as good as expected for the simple 1080 and 1095 that I use. So I don't think it's too brittle.
Again, I agree water cooled is best, ...I just don't think it's as important as the initial heat treat. IMO
Video excelente!
This video is great. I have been tinkering with welding, fabrication, and making tools, including knives, for years. My favorite bush knife is a short (8 ") machete. Carbon steel with a hardness of 59. Does it dull? sure, but it sharpens so fast I don't care. I carry a 6" lathe cut file and a ceramic rod in my kit anyway, I can accidently hit a rock while chopping and dress the edge in 5 minutes so it will shave (not my face, thank you). Yes, I know, this edge will wear down into a Kukri shape in another dozen years, but so what? My tools work for me, not the other way around. I can always make another one.
Hi! Thanks for the lovely feedback and you are right, it’s hardness appropriate for your needs. At least it won’t snap during use as you set it at a decent HRC.
- Vinz
I use a kukri for my mountain biking knife. Does great on limbs and sharpens easily with a file.
@@Tensioner I couldn't agree more, but I have found the straight back of the machete is easier to use with a baton to split larger pieces, and a bit better for digging.
OK, Bushcrafting, camping, working around the farm, one knife steel, that will last a lifetime, yet can be maintained and sharpened too a nice edge, what would you buy?
Something like aeb-l or 14c28n should be ideal. Very tough, higher edge retention than your normal carbon steels and it's stainless. It also doesn't have vanadium carbides, so it's easy to sharpen. Super fine grain structure too. If you wanna go fancy and don't mind sharpening / honing with diamond, then you can go powder metallurgy super steels like magnacut.
Back when I still had enough time on my hands to make knifes, I used to make them from 115CrV3, edge quenched in brine and tempered to around 58-60 HRC. Marvelous steel, nice to forge, easy to heat treat, and stays sharp for a long time. At least for bushcrafting or a general purpose knife I wouldn't see a point in making them any harder.
With modern alloys, the tradeoff between hardness and toughness is still there, but the numbers are shifted up a bit.
One of my favorite knives was heat treated to 58 hrc it isn't the best at holding an edge, but it does plenty well enough the part that makes it a good knife is mostly the geometry.
Very good video. Optimum hardness is always a balance with toughness for the intended use.
A few simple stainless steels (AEB-L, 13C26 and 14C28N) can take 63 HRC and still be tougher than 1.4116 on 57 HRC. I wish we saw more knives on it and more steel manufacturers with same steel design.
Anyways I can't complain much, 60 HRC is already a pretty good and is better target for several other steels.
Hi and thanks for the lovely response! Nice to hear from you and hope to see you in our other videos! Cheers!
There are many more properties to look for in a knife. Hardness is kind of useless unless you are cutting hard materials, but a knife edge is not meant to do that really. Yield strength is king as it enables a lot of abuse in any direction onto the edge, it is the anti-chipping factor. And the lack of yield strength is the one reason almost ceramic like Powdermet's are failing and require that Godawful ugly thick blade to stay in one piece during use. That thick trend was not a design choice, it was a requirement for crap yielding materials. Then there is elongation at break and a few other properties that will impact your blade more than hardness overall.
The whole Hardness trend started because for carbon steels specifically hardness is somewhat correlated to yield strength and can lead to some predictive ability of quality. But for anything else this is not true anymore.
@@dragoscoco2173 Maybe you are confusing yield strength with fracture strength.
Yield strength is the force require to cause plastic (permanent) deformation, in practice this corretales with edge rolling as its deformed but not broken. Hardness is important to yield strength. A blade with high toughness and low hardness will not chip but the edge will roll easily.
Fracture strength strength is important to avoid chipping and blade fracture. Toughness is the parameter we use to predict it. High hardness with low toughness can lead to brittle edge and broken blades.
For good performance you need both. High hardness and high toughness. Ideal balance will depend if the blade is designed for slicing or cutting with impact.
If you want to optimize for toughness AEB-L is also a great choice. It's four times tougher than 1095 on same hardness ( 60 HRC) while at the same time being stainless.
@@thiago.assumpcao In practice fracture strength is all over the place when testing multiple samples. You will get a good mean but with high uncertainty.
In ductile materials maybe it is some important point of total failure, but if you are at that point the edge of the blade already suffered permanent deformation that already impacts cutting.
In ceramic like materials like quite a few stupidly high carbon Powdermet's, much like in a true ceramic or similar to a Quenched not tempered steel, the fracture strength is so close to the yield strength that they overlap. They behave like glass or concrete, meaning they have impressive compressive strength but a 10 times lower yield strength. Meaning they fail in tension or bending.
If you use toughness to predict blade quality then you are using yield strength already, that is a good thing. As toughness is a function of yield (sometimes only compressive) and elasticity.
Hardness is also quite misleading. As a grinding "stone" can have the hardness of almost diamond and the toughness of raw iron if you make it out of diamonds in an iron matrix. But in practice this has no value as it will yield like iron and bend like a rebar.
@@dragoscoco2173 I'm quite suspicious of ultra hard, high carbide content steels. ZDP 189 on 68HRC and 30% carbide content doesn't sound like a good option to me, specially for survival knives.
There is a couple articles on Knife Steel Nerds with toughness hardness graphs. I use it to predict how tough a steel will be. Probably not ideal but I can get a general idea of what to expect from each steel.
I know many steels can handle well 60 HRC for kitchen knives and loose edge by rolling instead of chipping. Really think European brands should launch a few models around that hardness.
Still don't have any blades above 60 HRC but I think probably some clean steels with low carbide content can handle 63 HRC well. One day I want to try some Japanese blade around that hardness to test 10 degrees per side sharpening.
I enjoyed your video.
Cheers Eric! Hope to see you again soon in another video!
I'd like to hear what you think of some of the Japanese steel's. I've had great luck with zdp189 as a general use kind of knife even though it's typically quite hard. With super blue it is really nice to sharpen but also seems to chip easily when hard. Thanks for putting together great info with personal experience.
I worked with cooks, and I've seen a lot of people move towards blue #2. Seems to be the sweet spot for a lot of the 61-63 HRC crowd when it comes to toughness and edge retention. I know I love my hard carbon steel knife for most of my kitchen work, and it's not as brittle as a lot of people make them out to be. But then again, I also have a beater stainless steel knife that's, IIRC, around 56HRC that I use it for meats with bones, or frozen food. That thing is unbreakable, and painless to sharpen, whereas my Japanese knife is a pain to sharpen, but I only do so once or twice a year, and give it a few strokes on a honing rod every couple of days.
As with most things, It's a case of using the right tool for the job.
@@qwerfaGot a bushcraft knife that claims to have hardness of 60-61. When I used it to hack away branches, I may accidentally hit gravel and chip off the edge. I feel the hardness is a bit too high for the task I'm using it for. Basically, I was trying to use this knife as if it were a machete.
Appreciate the knowledge of Graham in these videos, I learned lots.
But the editing and music of the video gets really distracting.
Dropping a like at any rate
my custom camp knife (8" blade, .2" spine, full flat grind) is made from CPM-3V with a tested HRC of 60 (tested in 3 places) it's as tough as nails and I would not be afraid to baton cinder blocks with it (though I never would do such a thing)
brilliant content and explanation! Loving these videos with Graham. Practical pragmatism should be first and foremost for any knife that is intended for actual use.
Hey bud nice to see you back again! Pragmatism is a great keyword for sure and 100% agree with you! Understanding intent of use will definitely help an individual maker to pick the right hardness for your blade. Thanks again for the comment!
@@UKBladeshow so happy i found your channel. if i wasn’t in perpetual facebook jail i’d be sharing these videos
Hahaha! No problem! As long as you are enjoying our content that we put out, the sharing is just a plus but if you can't it's no problem whatsoever mate. Thanks again buddy! I'm working on the next Graham video and I can promise you the next one is even more intriguing so stay tuned!
What about clay quenching over edge quenching? i think you get the same effect but less risk of fire. takes longer to cool the entire blade depending on the thickness of the clay but i have done practice bend tests and passed. (i am getting ready for my first attempt at the first part of the ABS journeymen rating shop test)
I was learning woodwork around the time Christopher Schwartz was active in the woodworking community, and he inspired me to challenge much of the modern status quo, particularly the adage that "harder is better".
I have come to the conclusion that the historical 58-60 for most cutting blades is actually ideal in most situations, and only in specific applications is a harder steel better.
For example, when cutting hard timbers that are filled with things that will destroy an edge, HSS @64+HRC is a better option than pretty much anything else.
But for knife applications, almost always, sharpenability trumps edge retention.
Is Chris Schwartz no longer active?
@@magicponyrides He is, but not really doing the type of journalism he used to.
He's not so much a learner of the trade as a practitioner, these days.
Not so prolific in his contributions to popular woodworking, but I think he's still doing very high level research.
Once an edge is too hard it will crumble/chip away when you hit knots , and those chips will take longer to sharpen away than a blunted softer edge.
Has there been videos on tempering chisels and gouges or is that out of this channel.
@@yoman2854 It depends on the type of steel, how it's made etc.
I have Japanese blue steel chisels than can't be used for hard/knotty woods (like, ebony hard... but even quick grown spruce winter grain is too much) for that reason - too brittle. The angle on the bevel would need to be well over 45° for them to have a chance.
However, I have a couple of white paper steel gouges and knives which are not as prone to chipping despite a similar (64rc) hardness.
And my go-to for ebony /hardwood cutting is HSS, which is hardened to about 65rc.
Explain what would happen if I case hardened only the edge - forge baking it in burnt leather for an hour or so - and the vessel is arranged so the cutting edge is absorbing all this carbon but not the rest of the blade. How high a carbon content of the edge can be had and it not be a bad thing?
Oooh… proper old fashioned technology. How successful have you been with it?
To answer your question: It depends.
If I knew what steel you were using I could give you an idea what carbon content to aim for. However I have no idea how you’d control the carbon content using your leather method. It’s be a lot of trial and error estimating how much carbon was going in based on the results. If the results from one trial are bad, use a different time/temp combination. If it’s good then do that again.
It has been my experience that RC 58-61 is ideal especially when the knife profile is the main focus related to the intended use. I prefer a robust flat grind distal taper blade for most all round butchery. the exception is my boning knife which is hollow ground. I am not a "Knife Snob" and have made extensive use of stamped kitchen knives such as Victorinox/Forschner Chef's pattern and Cimitars. They hold an decent edge and. respond well to edge maintenance with a steel. My "hunting knives" are also flat ground distal taper. Very robust spine and very tough stainless. I do have some carbon steel cutting tools such as various length machetes that are Cerecoated so only the edge is exposed to weather. They are commercial products that have excellent edge holding ability and very tough but actually the steel it too hard. The edge chips easily.
Hi David thanks for the comment! Great to hear you agree with Graham’s guide range of Rockwell Hardness too. It’s fascinating to hear everyone’s input in the comments and I can see people discussing everyone’s opinions nicely. Thanks again David!
I "like" high hardness blades... but I "use" low hardness blades ;) I have solid carbide blades that get zero use, and high hardness (62) S30V blades that get little use, but at work or camping or hunting I tend to use Ti alloy, S7, or something in between. Sharpen with a file or rock. One exception is my main workshop knife in M2. It gets a lot of hard use but in my shop, if the edge chips, it gets reground easily.
If you use your knife to cut various things, some of those things being harder, edge stability will be a factor in the edge retention because once you start getting dull/rolled spots along the edge it won't cut as well and there goes your edge retention regardless of how many carbides you have in the steel. Maximum hardness you can get to put on the thinnest edge that will be stable while not completely trashing toughness would be my preference for general applications. Chopping trees might be something different.
@@jeffhicks8428 sounds like we are on the same page
Hello I’ve been making straight razors out of O1 for. While now and i have a question what would be your ideal hardness and HT process to get the finest grain size out of Annhealed O1 stock.
Thanks for your videos it is really helpful
Hi River Razors thanks for the feedback! I’ll ask Graham when we get to meet up again.
@@UKBladeshow thank you very much
Is there any advantage to hardening well beyond the desired HRC (say 64-65) or just barely beyond it (say 61-62) if you are just going to temper back to let's say 58-59? I would think there isn't a difference, but I am interested in the metallurgical point of view.
The maximum hardness achievable is mostly determined by the alloy content (with carbon being the most important). And generally if the heat treatment and initial conditions are right (prior grain size, time at temperature, quenching etc etc) you'll get the maximum hardness - and minimum toughness - right after quenching.
How much a steel tempers back and at which temperature is also mostly controlled by the composition.
A low carbon mild steel won't harden to 60+ HRC no matter what and you need the clever alloying of something like a high speed steel to get very high hardness with useable toughness.
Is that in any way helpful? Happy to go into more detail if I've not answered your question.
I remember forging a point on some Damasteel for a dagger, followed by a tang. Bloody stuff barely moved when I hit it with the hammer.
Hey buddy nice to see you again! Yes it can be tricky to forge some of the fancy steel but it really is dependent on what you want to get out of the steel I suppose! What’s your preferred steel for forging if you don’t mind me asking?
@@UKBladeshow Can't resist sticking my oar in when there's an interesting topic! I don't especially have a favourite, but if I were exclusively hand forging I'd be sticking with fairly simple carbon steels. Wrought iron san mai is nice to forge because you get to see how nicely (or otherwise) you managed to forge it in the end product!
Do you go harder on laminated steels? Have some antique Japanese chisels with a 65-66 RC, but they are laminated with low carbon steel.
Hi I forge some high carbon blades that are edge quenched I try to get 55 to 58 hrc slightly Higher is ok . folks dont realize if you harden above 62 hrc you start to get up there where only a diamond sharpeners will sharpen it . I use hardness files to check can you explain the best way to check with hardness files ? I learned sometimes the outside can be softer when checked than the actual edge in some steel . How can that be addressed should an area be ground then checked ? I Appreciate you sharing information with us Thank you sir,
You can easily sharpen a lie allow high carbon steel at 65hrc on a normal stone. Where you need cbn or diamond is the steels containing vanadium carbides (or tungsten / niobium). Those are harder than your typical stones. A 10v steel at 60 hrc will be more difficult to sharpen than a 1095 at 65 hrc
I am very curious about 2 steels you may have experience with. Magnacut and 14cr14movnb. The first is becoming a urban legend, the second seems to be a new chinese steel that resemble sg2 and there is absolutely nothing nowhere to read about it. Some says that BD1N is a cheap steel that beats sg2 for kitchen knives.
I find my vg10 61 hrc knives tend to be too soft and ductile for an acute edge like 10° per side. At least they are not brittle, sure. In the other hand, I have 2 Kai Wasabi knives, cheap 0.6% carbon steel at 59 hrc, wich is too high obviously for 6C and therefore super brittle.
Thanks for the videos, I like it a lot.
Hi Dayannah! Thanks for taking time to comment! Your choice of steels are very interesting so thank you for taking time to share!
Forgive my ignorance, but I am seeing so many pocket knives in the 8CR13MOV steel... and the ones I own, I've found quite a bit of need to sharpen them after moderate use. (Gerber Ayako, Quadrant)
Alternatively, I have a "titanium coated" fixed blade that is 8CR13MOV(assuming, as the manufacture told me over the phone it's "13") and it appears to keep an edge quite a bit longer. (Toughbuilt Tradesman Knife)
Given that the hardness of that steal can fluctuate from 55-61... why is everyone seeming to want to move to D2 or S30CV when this budget steel seems to hit the recommended hardness stated in the video.
Because hardness isn't the only factor that makes super steels, super steels. Carbides make from various alloys present in the steel is what helps with edge retention.
8cr13mov isn't a particle steel. Any particle steel alone is going to smoke ingot steel in most cases.
I use 1084/15n20 for Damascus blades but for mono steel blades should I switch to a different carbon steel for better performance in thin kitchen knives? For example 26c3? Cheers
Thanks for the comment! And yea, 1084/15n20 seems to be a famous combo for pattern-welded steel! You don’t “have to” switch steels for mono blade but it really depends on what your intention is for it. There’s tonnes of good steel available for knife makers (and even more coming out). Have you seen our video on steel selection?
What's good cheap oil that can be used for quenching?
Hi Robert! It all depends on what steel you are trying to quench! Check out www.gfsknifesupplies.com as they have a list of quenching oils on specific steels on their website. I hope that helps!
i made my First nice Bushcraft outdoor knife, with O1 Steel-- men that carbon steel is awesome,
Excellent
Cheers!
So what's the deal with proprietary metals like chromova 18 and vg max?
I've got one of those overly fancy (and priced) pocket knives made from powdered steel, with an advertized hardness of 62 HRC at the edge. They call it "3G", which is a laminate of VG2 - SPGS - VG2. Both used steels are high chromium (15%). It's not exact of course, but I would eyeball the thickness of the centre layer of SPGS at about 0.8 mm or so. That layer is so thin to make it more flexible, and laminated with very flexible VG2 to give it support and keep it from snapping. If all this is needed for a 62 HRC edge, it stands to reason that non-laminate stainless steels (not powdered) or high carbon steels are at their best at a slightly lower hardness.
It does take some effort to sharpen this knife.
Hi Ivo215 thanks for the comment and thanks for sharing your story! Steel hardness can be a complex topic and there are no exact right and wrong per se - it’s more of what trade-off / compromise you are willing to have for your intended use isn’t it? Thanks for your time again and hope you enjoy our other videos too!
Great Vid , so magnacut at 64 - 65 not good ?
Great question. MagnaCut appears to be a different beast on its own so I wouldn’t include it in this conversation. This topic specifically is on conventional steels. MagnaCut, ApexUltra, and many other modern steels were made to achieve those figures so they are good for what they’re made for.
I like a blade that is edge hardened and the rest left softer. Makes for a tough blade. I also like a higher hardness on that edge.
Hi Dennis I did that on my last knife too (that Graham taught me to make)! Thanks for the comment!
You're right! Another way to a tough knife and hard edge is laminated, san-mai, double clad steel.
Who doesn't want tough, edge holding knives, thin behind the edge?
Do you feel this way about magnacut?
PS: The real advantage of Powder Steels, beyond uniformity of grain appears as “Lateral Toughness” (resisting twisting stress in the cutting, eg: Bushcraft). The Lateral toughness of S35VN can be 4X the lateral toughness of 440-C or 154CM. These steels (along with 3V) work well with reasonably thin edges, like a Scandi grind. 3V is not a “real” stainless, rather a stain resistant steel, but S35VN comes close to it for Lateral Toughness, though S3V could handle “machete” work, even at 61 HRC (Its Lateral Toughness is close enough to S35VN’s). All this makes the newer MAGNACUT a truly exception: Like a really Stainless M4… Good in the Kitchen, in the Field, & holding an edge at high hardness without cracking.
Hey Max thanks for your comprehensive comment! Thank you as well for sharing your knowledge!
@@UKBladeshow LC200N is space age compared to everything before such as H2.
I have a magnacut bushcraft knife that was heat treated to 60-61 hrc. But when I put it to use as a machete for hacking away branches, the edge would get chipped off when hitting gravel and concrete. I'm starting to believe that the knife edge is a little too hard to the point of being brittle on the edge.
CPM-S90V is at the top of edge retention, and it's very difficult to sharpen, but it's something you don't have to do for a very long time. And yet, it has a hardness of 57-59 HRC, which is the same as for example, AUS-8, that has poor edge retention.
So, something else is in play and is ignored by most people, including me so far.
What you are ignoring is carbide type and amount 😉
If you need to use low-alloy steels in order to forge the knife, what is the advantage of forging? Historically, forging would improve the quality of primitive steel with lots of impurities. On paper, it seems that modern alloys outperform forged low-alloy steels across the board. So why forge at all?
Toughts on zdp-189 for kitchen knife?Seen some people trubbleing to sharpen them but thats it
Zdp-189 would be good in an edc knife. Not well suited for a kitchen knife imho. Unless you are EXTREMELY carful, baby it and only use it for specific tasks. But then why would you have that knife? Abrasive edge retention is not that important in the kitchen. That is the only thing that steel is good (excellent) at.
So if using carbon steel to make a knife if I were to just edge quench does that mean that I wouldn't need to temper the blade after heat treating or would it still need to be tempered? I'm so confused.
Yes, you’d still need to temper. Untempered martensite is to be avoided in pretty much any situation I can think of.
Does that help? I can go into why you need to temper if you can let me know which bit confused you?
An untempered edge will still chip.
So I have this 1095 condor machete, would you recommend going down to a 1075 for a machete or stick with the 1095?
For a machete use a tough steel like 5160 or 8670. 1095 is not very tough. If you are limited by 10 series steels, I'd go down to 1060. That is often used in swords too. However the first two steels mentioned will be better.
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 yeah I see what you mean I'm having to reprofile the Apex more often than I would like I did come across a D2 blade that was a bit more robust but I will definitely take you up on that advice and keep an eye out for either of those or a powdered steel version if I'm lucky.
@@adcaptandumvulgus4252 d2 is quite brittle. For a machete there really is no reason to go PM steels. Toughness is king for anything that you use to whack stuff with. Google knife steel nerds. He has excellent diagrams and articles comparing all the different knife steels
Do you have experience with magnacut steel or M398?
I am looking at buying a set of kitchen knives and they have an HRC rating of 60+2. Most of my knives are 56-58 HRC, what does the +2 mean I have never seen an HRC with the + tag on the number.
And who would want the knife to be harder as your honing rod. Regularly honing your culinary knife with an old F. Dick is a big part of enjoying your kit as cutting with it if you ask me. That singing sound is just really nice.
Great video. I am starting to play more with the powdered steel though. Made some Elmax, M390, and Magnacut. You are right, they are VERY tough to work with, and you fly through belts like crazy. But these steels I am finding are able to get into the 63 and 64 hrc range and still be useable even with some abuse.
Hey buddy! Thanks for the comment and nice to hear you're having good success o the powder-met stuff. Don't listen to Graham, he's talking a load of rubbish anyway hahaha! I'm just joking - he's an amazing guy and we are very lucky to have him in the knife making community!
@@UKBladeshow o no, he is very correct. It really is just a pissing contest so to speak. Someone just wants to be able to say, "I have the best steel." regardless of use, or need. The new steel is not very practical to work with, or sharpen for that matter. But...thats what my customers want. Who am I to turn down money LOL
Hahaha that's fair enough! I wouldn't turn down money at all myself. I suppose managing your client's expectations can be challenging as well. Well I hope these educational videos we put out gives out some help to people out there and hopefully some of the myths debunked as well!
Cheers again bud - I appreciate your comments on our videos! It helps us understand what the audience like / dislike! Hope to see your comments/feedback on the other videos too!
- Vinz
I just bought a kitchen knife with 67 hrc
so all that talk about cpm steel not hardened to more than 61HRC is all bullcrap?(mostly folders)
I have a question about hardness I saw a knife for sale and they said the hardness was listed at 53 hrc I thought that sounds way to soft . Am I correct?
The answer it: it depends.
What’s the application? It might be the right mix of hardness and toughness if it’s something that will take a lot of abuse. Sounds low for something like a razor or kitchen knife. Do you know the material?
My old 1974 puma white hunter knife has a pin mark made by a diamond apparently to test the hardness
Can anyone knowledgeable offer their opinion/ thoughts on making a D2 steel survival knife at 6mm thick with a HRC of 60-61... Will this be robust enough or way too brittle?
From some personal experience with heat treating D2 (for dyes and tools as opposed to knives) I’d recommend a low hardening temperature (around 1020C if memory serves) and a low tempering temp (around 200C). It won’t give you the highest hardness and may reduce edge retention compared to high hardening and temper temps but it will leave some quite stable retained austenite to give it a bit extra toughness which will be helpful for a survival type application.
From hazy memory, I think you’re looking at high 50s HRC is to follow the low(er) temperature route.
Blade Steel, Heat Treatment and Geometry are really task specific. Some task requires more of toughness (chopping bones, hard wood, punching granite stones, etc) from which steels like 5160 treated and tempered in 58 HRC works wonders in task like Bushcraft and bone cleaning. None impact activities or task like slicing and cutting requires less toughness but more of that of hardness. A 52100 Scalpel hardened and tempered to 64 will be fine.
A full flat 52100 at 60+ would make a great skinner as you mentioned.
Hi. Can i use water as quenchant for 80crv2 thx
Hi D S. I don’t know if you can but I know Rye 32 is great for it if that helps? Here’s some info on the steel: www.gfsknifesupplies.com/Products/80crv2-700mm
@@UKBladeshow thank u for reply. Best regard
@@DS-sw6ol Yes, water will harden 80CrV2 but…
Avoid water if you can. The proper oil will do a better job. You are far more likely to get problems with cracking and distortion if you quench too quickly and water is a very severe quench.
It really depends on the knife. A pocket knife can be a lot higher than 61 with the right steel. Nevertheless, I think he is largely correct.
Your cut throat example has merit. But if you investigate Larrin Thomas, you will see he has test cases of carbon steel at different hrc. He scientifically tests wear resistance and toughness. Not discounting your experience, but it isnt under controlled testing conditions.
Could re-tempering steel HEMA practice swords at oven temperatures, say 300f , help to cure the accumulated stress fractures from banging them together?
A temper won’t repair a fracture that’s already there, I’m afraid.
Are your blades actually snapping or chipping during practice or getting notched and dented? If it’s notches and dents then the heat treatment is probably correct for HEMA use.
@@GemAppleTom
Not at all, it was an academic question, thanks.
@@robertvondarth1730 It’s wasn’t a daft question by any means. I did have to have a think about what would happen.
Re-tempering a banged up sword may release some of the stress in a notch. It depends how much stress has gone in. The effect would be to ever so slightly change the shape of the notch but not much else.
A stress relieve cycle will get rid of most or all of the stresses but needs a much higher temperature (500-600C). That would wreck the strength from the original heat treatment, though.
I like the random stabs of reggae
Hi traglodon lovely of you to notice that! Thanks for watching!
How about enchanting? Max hardness in heat treatment, then enchanting "unbreakable"
Haha
How do you feel about s35vn on 56hrc
Hi Ms Sm thanks for the comment! May I ask what type of knife you intend to use this steel / hardness on please? Thanks!
@@UKBladeshow would that be a good choice for a survival knife?
Hi Ms Sm! For a pocket / survival/ everyday knife, your choice of steel looks a great fit from the powder-met steel range! I hope that helps!
- Vinz
I recommend 58-62 max HRC for general use knives, higher than 62 is brittle, hard to sharpen, whilst lower than 58 doest have good edge retention, but is easy to sharpen and wear out......my 2 cents....🇿🇦😎🍻
Hi again Richard - thanks for the input! Appreciate you taking time to comment!
@@UKBladeshow ...again, awesome channel 👍🇿🇦😎🍻
Respectfully I don't think this is really backed up by any research. It's old school heat treatment and is leaving a lot of performance on the table. Ideally hardness should be pushed as much as possible unless you are past the point where you are getting some sort of failure with intended use. Hardness is a critical component in edge support and all things being equal a harder knife will take and hold a finer edge. Unless using a ultra high carbide steel most steel perform best in the kitchen around 63-64 Rc. If a quality heat treatment is used ductile failure is more common than brittle failure during normal use. Most of the steels talked about ha e very low carbide volume and will not perform well under 6oRc especially in the kitchen. AEB-L was designed for high hardness and to aviod carbide formation. Its still tougher than most steelsat 64Rc. CPM M4 at 66Rc is as tough as 1095 at 61. If a steel is a primary sharpening tool then you will have to make a lot of compromise on overall performance with no real upsides.
Some information has been standard for so long its hard to change. There has been improvements over the years and it is worth growing with that information. For instance when I first learned about course sharpening advantages I thought it must just be that people struggled with their sharpening. After testing it and learning how to do it right I wasto add a lot if performance. I sharpened a hard use M4 blade at 66Rc using just a course diamond that almost matches my straight razor in sharpness but can be touched up i. 30 seconds and still handle abuse. The only way to get to that place is to continue to improve.
Hi Stormie thanks for the comprehensive feedback! Your opinion definitely matters so thank you for weighing in on the topic but to us, Graham is an absolutely helpful man. The intention for the video is to help people who just come to him and ask for the hardest possible HRC they feel they can push their knife to without understanding the trade-off.
Thank you again and really appreciate you sharing your knowledge on the subject as well!
- Vinz
I think that communication with you client is key. If you push the hardness high, keep the grain super small and you thin the blade down, the knife will cut as hell but will be brittle. If your client knows that limitation and is good with that, he will use it with care. I thing that, with my humble experience, you can push hardness in the 63-65 as you said and realy give you client a knife that will give them an super nice feeling. But they must understand the limitation. But that limites kitchen knife made for realy sharpe cut and thin blade.
Yes!, coarse sharpening was a game changer for me as well, especially with the softer steels I prefer. I would rather have a blade bend under extreme force than shatter. I bow to your experience on the exotic stuff... I am not a manufacturer, just an amateur and user. Most of my wood and leather knives and tools are made from 1095 or O1 just because it is so available.
@@guillnadeau it depends on what you are doing with the knife. Most people don't think that 61Rc is to high for a 1095 blade. M4 has roughly the same toughness at 66Rc if I remember correctly. That should be just fine for a lot of knives. I carried an M4 folder with a thin Hollow grind and used it in construction with no problems. If you are doing something like bushcraft with heavy batoning then ultra high toughness is probably what you want. Knives are made as somewhat specialized tools. If you try to make a knife that will do everything you are going to leave a lot of performance out of it. The most important thing is to have a good heat treatment that is specifically designed for a task and to understand how the blade will fail. Most of the time a kitchen knife is not going to snap if its to hard but it might chip. If its to soft the edge will roll. If you are heat treating by eye out of a forge then maybe a sub 60Rc is the safe bet.
Freezing worker / butcher's perspective: I worked with many who preferred the slightly harder F. Dick knives (especially for boning lamb), "harder is better". I noticed that the guys dropping out with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome typically used those knives. Stiff as hell, harder to move inside an animal, harder to deal with joints. My MAIN dislike of them is that you have to work harder on the steel to bring the edge back. Drop down to 55-56 with a Victorinox or Victory knife, and you can get a laser edge back with 2 strokes on each side and get back into it.
Wow thanks for sharing that Mitch - great input! I hope you also enjoyed the video! I was wondering what styles of knives are used in your industry then?
@@UKBladeshow F. Dick and Victorinox are the two main knife brands here in NZ, I prefer the latter. Some companies have other brands trying to lower costs but usually revert back after a while. 15cm boning knives are the standard in lamb/beef processing plants, butchers in supermarkets/butcheries will usually have one of those plus a 25 or 31cm steak knife for cutting up primals. The steak knife is more commonly a curved scimitar-style, less commonly bullnose blades. I prefer the latter again, I really struggled learning to cut good steaks with the scimitar style.
As far as honing/sharpening steels, F. Dick is king here. Their steels are absolutely fantastic. They have something for every knife application. The 'MICRO' Super-fine Cut is beyond excellent.
@@mitch3384 what do you think of victory knives?
@@daveyboy6985 They're made here in New Zealand, very popular in our fishing industry apparently - I can see their steel being quite suitable there. I bought a couple to use trimming lamb in a processing room.
I didn't like the white handles with the really pronounced non-slip pyramid pattern grip (see here: www.argus.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/V271015115W.jpg ) - it didn't help with slip, and they're harder to keep clean (both day to day, and over time with staining). Haven't tried the handles without the diamond pattern.. their 'ProGrip' boning knife looks VERY close to the Fibrox 15cm Boning Knife I've spent most of my career using. Everybody is different, I very much prefer Victorinox Fibrox handles to all else I've tried. Feels better.
They're typically softer than Victorinox (54-55 HRC versus 55-56 HRC), so they'll likely dull slightly quicker, depending on what you're cutting, and the board you cut on. They respond a little quicker to steeling. I'm a professional sharpener, so I notice the softer steel when sharpening too. That could possibly translate to 'easier to sharpen' or 'easier to remove too much during sharpening, shortening lifespan'.
Now, as per the video, softer isn't a bad thing.. it can be a benefit. It all depends on what you're doing with it. I like Victorinox over F. Dick (especially Swibo) because they're not as hard. If I were a butchery/kitchen owner, I may consider Victory over Victorinox, they seem to go for about 60-70% of the price of Victorinox, and half the price of F. Dick.
I can be a bit critical based on the work I did and how in-tune a butcher/boner gets with his knife. But for your average knifehand, kitchen worker etc, they're definitely worth atleast trying. Not world class, but not too far away from Victorinox in quality.
@@mitch3384 thanks for the info.
I live in New Zealand, and have a victorinox boning knife , and a victory broad fillet knife, both I find are great knives, and yes I think you are correct in that the victory is slightly easier to sharpen, but not by much.
My victory knife has a very thin blade stock so it's super slicy.
What do you think would be the best cutting angle on the secondary bevel , 20degrees on each side? Or less?
I use 80crv and 1095
Me sitting here with a stainless steel bushcraft knife sitting at 63 🤔
Hahahaha!
Mostly disagree.
Optimal heat treatment can yield high hardness and adequate or superior toughness in a wide range of steels. Modern stainless alloys (PM and ingot) can easily reach 64HRC or higher as quenched with liquid nitrogen cryo and there's nothing gained in toughness by tempering them below 61-62HRC. Many stainless alloys experienc tempered martensite embrittlement when tempered back too much. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking they can treat stainless like a simple carbon steel and temper it soft for better toughness but it doesn't work like that.
Razors rely on very fine edge holding, rather than wear resistance, to maintain their shaving edge. Higher hardness achieved with optimal heat treatment gives better fine edge holding. Fine grain and fine carbide size supports the fine razor edge at high hardness and an excess of carbides can hinder that fine edge and make sharpening much more difficult. Razor blade stainless like Bohler AEBL and Sandvik 13C26 can achieve high hardness with good toughness, have quite low carbon which results in little chromium carbide and plenty of free chromium for fine edge stability and stain resistance.
If I made a.razor from carbon steel I'd aim for 62HRC at an absolute minimum, preferably 63 or 64. It's a razorblade, not a cleaver, at the high hardness it will have more than adequate toughness to deal with whiskers.
As an introduction for hobby blade makers I think it’s pretty good general advice since it’ll work for most people with the steels most will be using most of the time.
But, yes, I agree with what you’re saying. Knowing the best way to heat treat with the right material means you can bend the general advice to get better results. That takes experience and a hefty amount of metallurgy behind you though.
I can chop hard, dry wood all afternoon with machetes and hatchets made of 1055-1095 carbon steel hardened to 53-55, have them perform well throughout, and then get them back up to hair shaving after it all with just a stropping. Hardness and edge retention are both ridiculous memes.
I’m 66 and can remember when 440 carbon was the new super steel. I really think that too much is made about steel types. After all a knife is first and foremost a TOOL for cutting things.
i mainly forge from 80crv2 or 1095, and i follow what gfs saus on their pages and ive had no issues what so ever
Hi Shaun! Their data sheets they provide are extremely helpful and happy to hear that your knives are coming out with great results! Cheers bud! 🥳😍
I heat treat bloom steel in molten kryptonite and routinely reach 90-95 HRC. All joking aside this was excellent content. Thank you for sharing!
Hi Michael thanks for taking time to comment! Glad to hear you enjoyed this video! Hope to see you in the other vids we have!
- Vinz
Sir you look like sound like and even sometimes talk like Bill Nighy!
Hahaha !
I wouldn’t chop things with my finest knives. A knife is just really bad chopper anyway. Outdoors I chop with an axe and in my kitchen I have an inexpensive heavy duty knife for chopping chicken bones and stuff. It’s a huge compromise to try to use the same blade for violent chopping and some more sophisticated cutting.
If my blade is not 80HRC, there is no point for having a knife...
Hardness only really counts at the cat house ; )
it sounds like he describes vg-10 as an awsome knife steel.
There really is a tonne of good choices out there - I think the key thing is understanding what is best for your intended use of the knife.
Thanks Holly!
I cannot seem to agree with the explanation presented in this video.
There is really no myth here, when I have to compare everything about knives, my personal experiences together with the realities.
I am more in favor with the comment written by Mr. Stormie Wutzke.
For myself, or for my use, knives for slicing with the length of the blade starting from about 8 inches and shorter must have hardness of 65HRC or above. The metal of the blade must be always corrosion proof stainless steel, thick or heavy, featuring extra toughness but less brittleness.
Never ever have I encountered difficulties or problems in sharpening tool steels above 65HRC hardness.
For swords, bolos and axes used for heavy chopping I will go, for it's cutting edges, with the hardness of 60HRC or lower.
There is no myth here, realities and experience will come into play.
I believe all are unbeatable options. That's my choice !!
Thank you.
60 I think is already too hard...
Haha yup true
Well said… AEB-L & CPM-3V (quickly quenched) will do well at ~ 61 HRC… as they have few & small carbides, with toughness, & edge-apex stability going for them… & @ 61 HRC, they resist plastic deformation, & form a polished edge. Higher carbide % & larger carbides do better 2 points lower (~ 59 HRC… let the carbides do the sawing, choosing a geometry where the “gums” can hold on to the “teeth”: a toothier edge saw better,eg: S90V in a Hunting knife)
The "tooth & gum" theory is very intuitive on one hand, makes total sense. My experience and actual testing suggests that might actually not be how it works though.
If you search for catra test data it seems to be pretty much of no concern how much gum there actually is, or at least it seems to be way less important than I for one thought for a long time. The relation even seems to be inverse according to my experience and data I saw to what everyone believes to be true.
I've actually made that experience for quite a long time, ie narrower angles giving way better edge retention and staying sharp or "sharp" for way longer. I noticed that first on knifes with different angles on one blade with two knifes made from K110 (D2) and ATS34. Steels that should be very prone to that effect with their huge carbides.
I grind/sharpen even K110 blades at 10° and they actually stay sharpish way longer than even at 22.5°. I've always thought that might be some quirk with how I use them or whatnot, but some data I stumbled upon some time ago suggests this to be generally true. (didn't bookmark anything but I think it's easy to find)
Gets more prone to chipping though of course, but if you just want an edge that can cut longer go down with the sharpening angle, not up!
I guess it's just like it often is - we hold things that intuitively seem very reasonable, almost as if it has to be a certain way, for a fact. If they're actuallt true though is often another question.
59-61 HRC…three degrees and a world apart 😏
✨🎯✨🙂👍
Thanks Muri 🥳🤩😍