Thanks to bring him for this short masterclass. The moment he talked about geometry was a "FINALLY!" moment. Less material hype and more info about geometry applied to everyday life task, that's the only way to get what's truly worth
I agree fully. I’ve practiced this with my own knives. Sometimes changing the DPS will impact the performance/longevity considerably. I was glad to hear his comment on this also.👍
It's kind of vindicating to hear this when you're a guy who likes to do really acute regrinds on budget steels. Oh, I like my fancy steels too, but my wallet, not so much!
Larrin has been saying this for so long. There's a section about the "Importance of Edge Geometry" in his knife steel ratings that I'm sure most scrolled right past. People are gonna people.
Mmm, i have lots of different steels but my edc around the house and yard gravitates to 14C28N. Just nice and tough and a dream to sharpen. And, yes, i have a few magnacut blades. Lastly, hartily approve and testify to blade geometry comments.
I'm embarrassed to say, but hopefully he's proud to hear, that I was under the assumption Dr. Thomas was a man in his 60s or 70s based on the 3rd party descriptions I've heard and read about his expertise, dedication to his craft and accomplishments. It's exciting to know he's a young man in the prime of his career and not some guy who finally completed Magnacut as the crowning achievement of his career.
Ok, you had me at better material and then closed the deal when explaining it and teased me by doing the video in front of a Buck sign, I go to see if I can order a Buck knife with your steel and nothing shows up? I have experienced a chipped / destroyed Buck knife blade exactly how you described. I was trying to cut through deer pelvic bone.
Oh man, anything doctor Thomas does is just pure gold. The man is a font of knowledge, and as a former scientist, I love that he'll get down and dirty with all the details of what's going on in steel. It's such an awesome material, and until recently I had no idea how much it can be played with.
Thanks for bringing Dr. Thomas into view. These are the kinds of guys who move the state of the art forward. Test, understand theory, re-test, do the homework, repeat.
Man I'd do anything to get to talk to this man and learn from him. His wealth of knowledge is so immense. Absolutely love this kind of technical videos. Well done!
I agree. Sometimes people tune it out because they assume its complicated stuff, but it really isnt. Its almost like looking at stat charts in a videogame. Very easy to compare. I lile that he does toughness over hardness AND toughness over edge retention specifically. Really helps me visualize the edge stability vs edge retention and toughness. I think Vanadis 8 is the perfect balance for non stainless and MagnaCut is the best balanced stainless. Vanadis 8 is serious stuff though. Roughly the same toughness as magnacut with WAY more edge retention and slightly higher hardness. Its edge stability should be unbeatable in that 15 degree per side range. I seriously doubt itll hold a 10dps edge as well as lower carbide steels though. It is just too toothy to go crazy thin. Thats where 14c28n SHINES. Wont hold an edge all that long, but it is GREAT at everything else, including fine edges and high polished edges. Cheap too! Honestly its the best formulated non PM steel out there. I wont bore you with the details, but they do some fancy stuff with nitrogen to give it fantastic properties without having to use partical metalurgy. The grain structure is still SUPER fine.
I sharpen and make knives professionally. I have honestly always felt the edge geometry was the most important, but I didn't have hard evidence to back up my thoughts. I am so happy i seen this! I must learn to trust my observations more. Thank you! I subscribed.
I was a Slaughterman for over 30 years, where we liked knives in the 52-58 Rockwell, anything harder took too long to re-sharpen on the stone, as we had to sharpen in our smoko break, so time was important. You are right geometry is where it's at, with the knives we used anyway. When we did cattle, I would have one knife with a convex bevel for cutting the hocks off and cutting through the dirty hides, I also used it on sheep for everything, the other knife I used on cattle, had an extremely thin flat bevel for all the inside skinning, it was way sharper than the other one. For boning we always had a convex edge, on a boning knife, of course. I think I am stuck in my ways, as I think, if something isn't broke, don't fix it. People are always chasing the next best thing, and you will never satisfy their thirst. I can see why people like these modern steels, I think that's all I should say about that.
@@markcahoon2534 I found an old knife out in the high desert hills of Nevada years ago. It was rusty and the handles were rotted or chewed off. I cleaned up the rust and wrapped the tang with rawhide shoelace and some heat shrink and used it for a camping knife. When I entered the "computer age" I looked it up on google, and to my surprise it turns out it was made in England, probably between 1860 and 1890. I don't know what kind of steel it is, but I can sharpen it plenty sharp and it seems to hold an edge fairly well. Lately I'm researching options for re-handling it. There's a picture and a slideshow of it on my channel, if anyone can tell me more about it. It's marked "Marsh Bros. & Co. Celebrated Cutlery" and "American Hunting Knife".
As a degreed metallurgist, Larrin Thomas absolutely knows what he’s talking about, has done the study, has done the work characterizing knife steels, knows how to get performance out of them and explains it all in simple terms. His book will become the bible for knife makers and manufacturers. It is jam packed with knowledge. Magnacut is a superior knife steel. It is balanced to provide good edge retention, wear resistance,and corrosion resistance. Once you try it, it will be difficult to turn back to other steels. The addition of extremely hard niobium carbides makes it somewhat difficult to sharpen, but investment in a good set of diamond hones in a variety of grits overcomes much of the problem. You will need to sharpen far less frequently and for knives, a quick tuneup on a steel will restore the edge to factory sharpness.
Again it has been said, that geometry, design and application is the basics of the steel. This is wonderful in light of the fact that so many steel nerds out there collect knives and promote blades based on steel only or lock strength only, simply abusing them. Whereas proper use of a proper product you know well will make ALL the difference between fun and failure!
My Dad was a carver/fisherman/tree man/ all around handy Guy. He walked me through the various edge geometries and uses for them as he trained me in the same fields of study... I have adopted his "Transitional edge" grind for most everything except my razor and my fillet knife. .It starts off Acute at the hilt, good for fine work, stripping wire, ect, and more obtuse as it heads to the point for good chopping and gouging without suffering much damage. I do touch it up nearly every day though. A few of my coworkers have been shocked at how well I can sharpen their knives.. I hook them up with a traditional working edge with a slight taper to the hilt. Not as acute aas my edc..They will say stuff like "I have had this knife for years and its never worked this well" or "I had no idea an edge could last so long.". Its true, geometry makes the knife usable.. I mean, When you can make a dollar store knife slice side walls out of car tires for two hours between stropping's, you know you are onto something. XD
@@redneckhippiefreakyour pops sounds cool. Swings sound cool.. I have a friend who is MIA right now. Long story,but he gave me a custom Damascus knife around that time frame….and that name rings a bell. Need to check that out. I don’t collect but have some nice ones that I have acquired one way or another throughout the years. Collecting made me feel anxious or something…hard to describe. Like it would never be complete or.???.?Dr may call it a mental condition or something. I don’t know but I was running myself ragged and not enjoying looking for Indian artifacts (& the other stuff.include metal detector,sifting ect)as much,backed off and quit for a while.same with guns and knives,everything. Felt like stuff was starting to weigh me down.if that makes any sense. I still like the good stuff & have it…maybe a little to much but reevaluated and more relaxed about it all these days. What’s a good sharpener for the$. In the market. Geometry. Kinda figured out that with a condor machete I use a lot. Like to know more about it for little folders and fixed blades.
It’s not.. it’s a “WITHROW”found a little bit about a Larry Withrow.looked similar. Good knife,beautiful wood,leather work the whole enchilada =top notch.
This video reminds me of an old friend who passed 10 or so years ago. He would drag me along to a knife show every year in STL. He would spend hours looking at different supplies and talking to different vendors about steel and knives. I didn’t have a clue what he was talking about but would do just about anything to talk knives and steel with him today. He was a very good folding knife maker! I do get a chance to talk with his nephew who was a fixed blade knife maker. Unfortunately he stopped making knives after. his uncle passed.
I've gone to knife nerds when I have a specific question regarding a steel that I'm interested in for a knife purchase, it is very informative. Thank you, Dr. Thomas, for what you do.
Hello Zac. Thanks for this video. Many years ago, back in the late 1960's, I decided to make my own knife and went to a local Steel merchant. I told him what I was planning on making and he gave me a piece of steel that was the correct size for my intended knife; however, I was planning on making it on a workbench with just a hacksaw, files and grinding wheel, which is when I discovered that it was extremely difficult to file. As it was, I was able to cut it to size and shape easily enough, but after that, I just lost interest. Ironically, I still have that piece of steel, in it's unfinished state. Of most interest, is that after all this time, it only has the slightest amount of surface rust. Ten years later, whilst at an engineering training facility in the UK, one of the instructors was an ex- Royal Navy Artificer and he said the best steel for making a working knife - sheath knife - was steel from a lorry's rear suspension. i.e. Leaf Spring steel. Having managed to find a piece, I realised the effort and work which would be needed to turn it into a knife, would require the use of a Machine Shop, with all the relevant tooling, including a Mill. At that point, I realised that I was on a 'hiding-to-nothing'. There comes a time, when you just have to accept, that you've bitten off more than you can chew, so you just have to call it a day and quit. I'm now a Pensioner/Senior Citizen, so that's one project that's fallen by the wayside, never to be achieved... but, That's Life! Russ. Portsmouth, UK.
You are right , the Spanish bayonetts Toledo steel are leaf spring knife , buy yourself a old Spanish Toledo bayonet that is unsharpend and you use a sharp file and a weetstone and leather strop , you will get a razorsharp durable knife that lasts.
I was having a hard time sharpening my d2 knife today, can't seem to get a good edge on it. Never even considered blade geometry! Today also happens to be my birthday, this video was the best present I could receive!
For quick reference: 1) AEB-L/14C28N for toughness, 2) Magnacut for balance, 3) S90V/S110V for high hardness. I would say that CPM-3V is overall about the best, especially if it’s prepared by Carothers Delta 3V heat treatment.
@@HemiHalfCentury Hardness is how resistant a blade is to getting dull. The harder a blade is, the longer it will keep an edge and theoretically it will take longer for it to need to be sharpened. Toughness is how much force it takes for a blade to be broken. A very hard blade will hold a very sharp edge longer, but you don't want to do things like chop wood with it.
And just like that Larrin dumps on 98% of knife reviewers and knife makers marketing hype bs with facts. Absolutely savage and on the money. Larrin is a national treasure.
It’s so great that he has a day job, so that he can be honest like this, even about his own product. “Edge geometry is more important that steel or heat treatment.“ mind blown.
Buck with their dedication to what they choose to do teaming up with Magnacut could be what I have lived this long for. Geometry, heat treat, and steel combined with classic renewable materials is perfection.
Doc Thomas can tell us about steels so simply that everyone understands what he is talking about. That means he really understands what he is talking about deeply.
I remember when the meat packing company that I work for changed from steel knifes to stainless steel knives. Everyone had a lot of problems getting a stainless steel knife sharp, and the company line was once they were sharp. They’ll stay sharp longer. I always preferred the steel knife, faster to get sharp and easier to put a bevel on with the sharpening wheel. When you’re working eight hours with a knife, you want to be able to have it sharp, and the ability to get it sharp quick again.
I really enjoyed this one. I have read the first book multiple times and learn more every time I read it. I am an enthusiast sharpener that is addicted to the science of knives and always strive learn how a person uses the knife b4 sharpening it for them. I buy knives strictly to experience the difference in steels/geometry and locking mechanisms.
This is the best video on knives that I have ever seen. Of course one has to become very skilled at sharpening. But learn it once and use for a lifetime. Thanks so much.
I've been collecting knives for over 40 years, only have 2 magnacut knives so far and love them. One is a very slicey full flat grind with a 17 degree edge and one is a tougher tanto style with a 20 degree edge. Both exceed expectations. After using them for 9 months or so my first question when looking at new knives is 'Does it come in magnacut?'. I've heard that a few companies haven't figured out their heat treatment yet, so watch and wait on those but the ones who've figured it out are making superior blades. Haven't had any issues with maintaining them, a KME sharpener with diamond plates makes short work of them. I put a nice edge on them when I got them and have only needed to strop them once so far after months of daily use. Don't have his book, but I've watched his vids and website for some time. Good info and insights for us amateurs.
DUDE! What a great compression of ridiculous amounts of knowledge! It's helped me immensely in just a few minutes. I have so many steels that I confuse myself, this put a very good perspective on questions I had no idea how to answer 😊
When I saw it was Dr. Larrin Thomas and not some self-proclaimed expert, I sat up and paid attention. He's very knowledgeable and can back up what he says. But if this hasn't been mentioned already, his Dad is THE Devin Thomas, who is one of the best (if not, THE best) masters of Damascus steel production and one of the best knife makers in the US (if not worldwide). I have two of Devin Thomas' kitchen knives and I would opt for a DT knife over any other knifemaker in the US (incl. Bob Kramer's knives). Genius runs in the family.
What I learned is that first, most people don’t grasp the importance of edge geometry as it applies to cutting tasks and second, most people didn’t want to accept that everything is a compromise. There can’t really be a “best” steel for knives because different knives must be optimized for their intended use. (Most people seem to get that a machete will never be good for filetting fish (ignoring the sheer size of the blade) but don’t think about the steel or edge geometry, for instance. Even if you grind a machete blade as sharp as a filetting knife it just won’t have the necessary flexibility. If it is made of a steel that gives it that flex it won’t be good for chopping brush or small trees regardless of edge geometry.)
Such a GREAT VIDEO Zac! Dr. Thomas is THE MAN! I love CPM MagnaCut and so thankful for all the contributions Dr. Larrin Thomas has made! He makes it cool to be a Knife Nerd!
I barely got into the video before hitting Amazon and ordering this book. I’ll have it Monday. I’m very excited to have the information condensed as described in the book’s details. Thanks!
I have bashed and abused my outdoor custom knife in magnacut at 62-63 hrc. Its nearly kitchen knife thin for most people and its never chipped or have anything wrong at the edge i love magnacut and hope it becomes a common steel in companies And geometry is king always have been and always will be I thin my knifes and keep em thin and often at low angles too
Great video! Love this. Thank you for sharing! Geometry over steel and heat treatment is something that might take some time to realize. But very true. And that includes not only the edge it self but also the entire blade. Which in effect makes knife making or just shaping so interesting.
Dr. Thomas knows what he is talking about. I have had an interest in knife steels for over 40 years. Some of the biggest non-scientific experts on knife steel qualities are Kosher Slaughterers. The knife used in this profession has to be hand sharpened and the edge so smooth that the most sensitive fingernail cannot feel the slightest nick after the slaughter. Originally we used to use a 600 Carborundum stone to create a bevel and then slate stones to polish it smooth. But when the Japanese water stones came out, we mostly switched to that. Most use 6000-8000. I remember back then that many of our best knives used 440C, but one manufacturer switched to D2. It stayed smooth longer but was harder to work on. I inherited a knife from an old European shochet that was fantastic. It lasted sharp and smooth for many cuts and was easy to work on the stones. However, it was a carbon steel and was subject to corrosion. It had to be dried quickly or immersed in a tub of lime water to prevent corrosion.
Thank you Zac and Larrin! Great video. Dr. Thomas's influence on the knife world and steel science is profound. Awesome to witness scientific advancement in real time.
Great stuff! Loved hearing from someone who actually knows why a steel is better at its task, and how to make it better. Composition, heat treat, edge geometry all goes into it.
Outstanding presentation. Zac you helped us all by opening our vision and understanding in this area. I joined the website and getting the book as well.
I was taught to try to create an "appleseed" edge geometry on my blades, of all sizes, to achieve a sharp, strong edge that resists chipping, rolling, and wear when cutting organic materials.
Zac thank you so much for your videos. Each one teaches and inspires me, making me more sure of my choice to enter the knife industry. I’ll definitely be reading that book!!!
Good information for sure. It's true what he says about the geometry. I was doing 15* while sharpening and the edges wouldn't last too long so now I do 15* to start and finish the edge with 20* and man do the edges stay sharper longer.
Thanks for featuring Dr. Thomas on this episode, Zac! I'm reminded that I should have taken a more materials science and metallurgy direction in my engineering education than I did (I went the thermodynamics/heat transfer/fluid mechanics route). When I was in school, for some reason I didn't make the connection between my interests in knives and choosing an academic and career path that complemented that interest.
My favorite combination is the Scandandavian Grind and the carbon steel in the morakniv. Cut through tons of grapevines like butter and even a plastic barrel, it was hot to the touch! Why isnt this combination more common? For me the grind is also dead simple to sharpen, just put it flat against the sharpening stone. Thanks for the interview, it was so interesting to learn about the best blade steels out there!
This is good! Excellent steel recommendations! I recall Larrin' (s Dad?) from bladeforums 20 yrs ago. I could tell he knew what he was talking about then. Bet he's proud bless y'all! I could still be fascinated discussing what a charpy test actually shows us. I obviously need to get some magna cut!
I love it too.... currently, "out of fashion" but kinda funny to go watch videos from 10+ years ago where they are talking about it as a supersteel in same breath as s30v
I've tried several steels and have settled on D2. It's relatively cheap and easy to sharpen. It holds an edge well, too. Maybe corrosion resistance isn't as great as some of the higher end steels, but for a pocket knife, it works well. Things like 154cm or s30v, I found to be overrated. They're difficult to sharpen and don't really hold an edge that much longer in my experience.
@greekveteran2715 I think toughness is more related to hardness. The harder the steel, the more brittle it will be. The type of steel is related to how hard you can forge it and its corrosion resistance. It's a trade-off. There's no reason why you can't make d2 softer/tougher from what I know of the blade making process/heat treatment.
@@anonanonymous1988 That's only true, for each steel independently. You can't make a D2 tough,it also usually never is lower than 60hrc which is still on the brittle side of steels. Rocwell hardness, hasn't to do with toughness as much as the quality and the type of the Steel. (D2, compared to Vanadis 4 Extra, or even CPM 3V all heat treated equaly to 60 hrc), D2 will still be WAY less tough than any of the 2 and both will also hold their edge way longer.It's the edge geometry, the type of steel and lastly the hrc, tha tdetermine, the toughness and edge stability. Even the way the knife was sharpened, will determine higher edge stability and edge retention.The reason most people complain about knives that their edge chips or rolls, is not the knives fault, but the users. All new (factory made knives) should be sharpened at least 2 to 3 times, and properly reprofiled, to a slight convex edge bevel,to avoid any chips or rolls,which also doesn't improve the edge stability 3 times more, but also improves the same ammount on edge retention and cutting performance.(Just some extra tips)
One of the Greatest single pieces of advice that one of my Mentors gave me when I was in my teens that become one of my "Immutable Life Laws" was.... ALWAYS under promise & over deliver!! Superb Vid Gents👊 Continued Success🍻 RP
Im always the elephant in the room but there is so much talk about steels being harder and harder and not losing the edge (which drives modern sales in the modern age) but as an old school british knife maker whos grandad was a knife maker and also surgeons tools in ww2... they made knifes softer so you could wack an edge on it easily in the field. It was like your daily task. Super hard knives are like electric cars (without personality) back in the day they would throw them away as a defect because they couldnt sharpen without a grindstone. Thanks guys
As usual completely absorbing and thoroughly interesting Zac your stuff is the best I sent the Bowie video to a friend who is not a knife guy but is a history guy and he loved it so much he shared it with a friend who is starting to make his own knives See what you started lol
I have a HELLE GT hunting knife with LAMINATED steel. The hardest steel is a thin center laminate surrounded by more flexible and tough. Also the full grain leather seats is very high quality and a good design.
Great explanation at the end. That’s exactly why a high-end Japanese knife with really strong steel will shatter if dropped. They holding an edge forever, but chip really easy. A really soft steel lasts much longer you just have to sharpen it more. Engineering is awesome😂
Thanks for the engineering based truth about metals, edge geometry, tooling/manufacturing, and categories of steel being what makes blade characteristics.
Buck are some of the greatest knives out there for the money, made for anyone who can't spend a whole lot on a knife but still provide a great product that will serve us well for many years.My latest knife was nice skinner for 100 bucks with gut hook and S30V steel, it will be around forever.
I get a shitload of random emails. When one comes in from Knife Nerds - Dr. Thomas I always set aside a good few minutes to read the entire linked article. You can't skim them. Hell, part of the time you can't fully understand them the first time. Thanks for all you do GOAT Knife Nerd
Im still a 1085 kind of guy. I do love my 01 sandwiched in 1095. (Scandi grind all the way! With exception of flat grind secondary bevel) I agree 100% about the edge geometry! I actually discovered that as a kid trying to make wooden spears or swords as sharp as i could.
Have you tried aebl/14c28n at 61-63hrc? It’s supposedly a stainless 52100 which is my favorite low alloy carbon steel. It should be just as tough with a bit better edge retention and about as easy to sharpen..plus stainless. 1085 is super easy to heat treat well though
@@ShoahBiz that's the thing! I'm not set up for heat treating these new steels. I heard one can heatreat 440 in a forge, but why bother. I'm just comfortable with carbon and it's usually accessable in scrap. I like historical replications. I'm curious of starting with bog iron, just not sure i got the stamina to form a bar of iron to steel.
@@ShoahBiz its addicting. First knife, my mentor made me use a series of files. Was a 10" medieval dagger made from a leafspring. Next few knives i used and old saw mill blade and got used to the grinder. Got a bunch of bar stock now to skip alot of the prepping steps. Probably the key to making a good knife is not really patience, but getting comfortable at the grind wheel and enjoying the process. The results, priceless and each blade has an origin story.
Thanks to bring him for this short masterclass. The moment he talked about geometry was a "FINALLY!" moment. Less material hype and more info about geometry applied to everyday life task, that's the only way to get what's truly worth
I agree fully. I’ve practiced this with my own knives. Sometimes changing the DPS will impact the performance/longevity considerably. I was glad to hear his comment on this also.👍
It's kind of vindicating to hear this when you're a guy who likes to do really acute regrinds on budget steels. Oh, I like my fancy steels too, but my wallet, not so much!
Larrin has been saying this for so long. There's a section about the "Importance of Edge Geometry" in his knife steel ratings that I'm sure most scrolled right past. People are gonna people.
No
Mmm, i have lots of different steels but my edc around the house and yard gravitates to 14C28N. Just nice and tough and a dream to sharpen. And, yes, i have a few magnacut blades. Lastly, hartily approve and testify to blade geometry comments.
I'm embarrassed to say, but hopefully he's proud to hear, that I was under the assumption Dr. Thomas was a man in his 60s or 70s based on the 3rd party descriptions I've heard and read about his expertise, dedication to his craft and accomplishments. It's exciting to know he's a young man in the prime of his career and not some guy who finally completed Magnacut as the crowning achievement of his career.
He's a young super nerd - the Bill Gates of the knife industry
Imagine what he might create over the next decades
And from what I understand himself and BBB have helped on more heat treatments than 15v. Great time to be a steel junkie 😊
His father is Devin Thomas... One of the greatest if not THE greatest damascus makers of all time. A Pioneer.
@@Alphaknifesupply He sure is. A ocean of knowledge Dr.Larrin is.
Fun interview! It was great we had time to talk while visiting Buck.
Ok, you had me at better material and then closed the deal when explaining it and teased me by doing the video in front of a Buck sign, I go to see if I can order a Buck knife with your steel and nothing shows up? I have experienced a chipped / destroyed Buck knife blade exactly how you described. I was trying to cut through deer pelvic bone.
@jhnstuhlmiller , From what I heard Buck is working with magnasteel to produce a (line?) of knives.
I'm looking forward to it.
Magnacut speaks for itself. Top tier.
Oh man, anything doctor Thomas does is just pure gold. The man is a font of knowledge, and as a former scientist, I love that he'll get down and dirty with all the details of what's going on in steel. It's such an awesome material, and until recently I had no idea how much it can be played with.
“Font of knowledge”. Very promethean. 🤣 👏👏
Wouldn't it be "fount"?
Video was clickbait tho, no top 3 steels. 😂
@@ZxAMobile wasn't it 14c27, magnacut and s110v, that's what I got out of the video.
Doc Thomas is SUCH a huge asset to the knife community! Thanks for bringing him on. Such a lot of knowledge and wisdom packed onto such a short video.
Yes he is, however I keep hearing other UA-camrs saying "he's not god" what does that even mean ?
You know he is being honest and humble when he admits Geometry matter more than steel and heat treatment.
Ya, the key is making a metal that retains correct geometry for the right task
This man has turned me into a knife genius. I’m insufferable now.
Thanks for bringing Dr. Thomas into view. These are the kinds of guys who move the state of the art forward. Test, understand theory, re-test, do the homework, repeat.
In other words science?
@@garypotter5569 Yea, though I hate to use that word, it's practically been debased.
Man I'd do anything to get to talk to this man and learn from him. His wealth of knowledge is so immense. Absolutely love this kind of technical videos. Well done!
If you'd do anything you could start by reading his book!
An Ares in Magnacut. Now that would be awesome.
Thank you Dr. Thomas for all your diligent work to bring this knowledge to all who are interested.
Larrin Thomas is at another level .. he explains in an easy to understand manner for the regular user✅
I agree. Sometimes people tune it out because they assume its complicated stuff, but it really isnt. Its almost like looking at stat charts in a videogame. Very easy to compare. I lile that he does toughness over hardness AND toughness over edge retention specifically. Really helps me visualize the edge stability vs edge retention and toughness. I think Vanadis 8 is the perfect balance for non stainless and MagnaCut is the best balanced stainless. Vanadis 8 is serious stuff though. Roughly the same toughness as magnacut with WAY more edge retention and slightly higher hardness. Its edge stability should be unbeatable in that 15 degree per side range. I seriously doubt itll hold a 10dps edge as well as lower carbide steels though. It is just too toothy to go crazy thin. Thats where 14c28n SHINES. Wont hold an edge all that long, but it is GREAT at everything else, including fine edges and high polished edges. Cheap too! Honestly its the best formulated non PM steel out there. I wont bore you with the details, but they do some fancy stuff with nitrogen to give it fantastic properties without having to use partical metalurgy. The grain structure is still SUPER fine.
I feel like recommending your own product is 100% acceptable when you disclose that it’s your product, which he does. 👍
I sharpen and make knives professionally. I have honestly always felt the edge geometry was the most important, but I didn't have hard evidence to back up my thoughts. I am so happy i seen this! I must learn to trust my observations more. Thank you! I subscribed.
Do you have any guidelines for angles of sharpening?
I was a Slaughterman for over 30 years, where we liked knives in the 52-58 Rockwell, anything harder took too long to re-sharpen on the stone, as we had to sharpen in our smoko break, so time was important.
You are right geometry is where it's at, with the knives we used anyway. When we did cattle, I would have one knife with a convex bevel for cutting the hocks off and cutting through the dirty hides, I also used it on sheep for everything, the other knife I used on cattle, had an extremely thin flat bevel for all the inside skinning, it was way sharper than the other one.
For boning we always had a convex edge, on a boning knife, of course.
I think I am stuck in my ways, as I think, if something isn't broke, don't fix it. People are always chasing the next best thing, and you will never satisfy their thirst.
I can see why people like these modern steels, I think that's all I should say about that.
@@markcahoon2534Not just convex, but also blade thickness. Thin blades are where it’s at.
@@markcahoon2534
I found an old knife out in the high desert hills of Nevada years ago. It was rusty and the handles were rotted or chewed off.
I cleaned up the rust and wrapped the tang with rawhide shoelace and some heat shrink and used it for a camping knife.
When I entered the "computer age" I looked it up on google, and to my surprise it turns out it was made in England, probably between 1860 and 1890.
I don't know what kind of steel it is, but I can sharpen it plenty sharp and it seems to hold an edge fairly well.
Lately I'm researching options for re-handling it.
There's a picture and a slideshow of it on my channel, if anyone can tell me more about it.
It's marked "Marsh Bros. & Co. Celebrated Cutlery" and "American Hunting Knife".
As a degreed metallurgist, Larrin Thomas absolutely knows what he’s talking about, has done the study, has done the work characterizing knife steels, knows how to get performance out of them and explains it all in simple terms. His book will become the bible for knife makers and manufacturers. It is jam packed with knowledge. Magnacut is a superior knife steel. It is balanced to provide good edge retention, wear resistance,and corrosion resistance. Once you try it, it will be difficult to turn back to other steels. The addition of extremely hard niobium carbides makes it somewhat difficult to sharpen, but investment in a good set of diamond hones in a variety of grits overcomes much of the problem. You will need to sharpen far less frequently and for knives, a quick tuneup on a steel will restore the edge to factory sharpness.
Again it has been said, that geometry, design and application is the basics of the steel. This is wonderful in light of the fact that so many steel nerds out there collect knives and promote blades based on steel only or lock strength only, simply abusing them. Whereas proper use of a proper product you know well will make ALL the difference between fun and failure!
My Dad was a carver/fisherman/tree man/ all around handy Guy. He walked me through the various edge geometries and uses for them as he trained me in the same fields of study... I have adopted his "Transitional edge" grind for most everything except my razor and my fillet knife. .It starts off Acute at the hilt, good for fine work, stripping wire, ect, and more obtuse as it heads to the point for good chopping and gouging without suffering much damage. I do touch it up nearly every day though. A few of my coworkers have been shocked at how well I can sharpen their knives.. I hook them up with a traditional working edge with a slight taper to the hilt. Not as acute aas my edc..They will say stuff like "I have had this knife for years and its never worked this well" or "I had no idea an edge could last so long.". Its true, geometry makes the knife usable.. I mean, When you can make a dollar store knife slice side walls out of car tires for two hours between stropping's, you know you are onto something. XD
Amazing information and I hope to never park anywhere near you when you are stropping/testing dollar store knives.
@@redneckhippiefreakyour pops sounds cool. Swings sound cool.. I have a friend who is MIA right now. Long story,but he gave me a custom Damascus knife around that time frame….and that name rings a bell. Need to check that out. I don’t collect but have some nice ones that I have acquired one way or another throughout the years. Collecting made me feel anxious or something…hard to describe. Like it would never be complete or.???.?Dr may call it a mental condition or something. I don’t know but I was running myself ragged and not enjoying looking for Indian artifacts (& the other stuff.include metal detector,sifting ect)as much,backed off and quit for a while.same with guns and knives,everything. Felt like stuff was starting to weigh me down.if that makes any sense. I still like the good stuff & have it…maybe a little to much but reevaluated and more relaxed about it all these days. What’s a good sharpener for the$. In the market. Geometry. Kinda figured out that with a condor machete I use a lot. Like to know more about it for little folders and fixed blades.
It’s not.. it’s a “WITHROW”found a little bit about a Larry Withrow.looked similar. Good knife,beautiful wood,leather work the whole enchilada =top notch.
I just got an catcherman for troat fishing. So how do you sharp a fillet knife? Do U have any tips?
This video reminds me of an old friend who passed 10 or so years ago. He would drag me along to a knife show every year in STL. He would spend hours looking at different supplies and talking to different vendors about steel and knives. I didn’t have a clue what he was talking about but would do just about anything to talk knives and steel with him today. He was a very good folding knife maker! I do get a chance to talk with his nephew who was a fixed blade knife maker. Unfortunately he stopped making knives after. his uncle passed.
I've gone to knife nerds when I have a specific question regarding a steel that I'm interested in for a knife purchase, it is very informative. Thank you, Dr. Thomas, for what you do.
I love how honest he is. Never would have thought edge geometry matters more than the steel being used. Good stuff. Learn something new every day! 💚
Hello Zac. Thanks for this video. Many years ago, back in the late 1960's, I decided to make my own knife and went to a local Steel merchant. I told him what I was planning on making and he gave me a piece of steel that was the correct size for my intended knife; however, I was planning on making it on a workbench with just a hacksaw, files and grinding wheel, which is when I discovered that it was extremely difficult to file. As it was, I was able to cut it to size and shape easily enough, but after that, I just lost interest. Ironically, I still have that piece of steel, in it's unfinished state. Of most interest, is that after all this time, it only has the slightest amount of surface rust. Ten years later, whilst at an engineering training facility in the UK, one of the instructors was an ex- Royal Navy Artificer and he said the best steel for making a working knife - sheath knife - was steel from a lorry's rear suspension. i.e. Leaf Spring steel. Having managed to find a piece, I realised the effort and work which would be needed to turn it into a knife, would require the use of a Machine Shop, with all the relevant tooling, including a Mill. At that point, I realised that I was on a 'hiding-to-nothing'. There comes a time, when you just have to accept, that you've bitten off more than you can chew, so you just have to call it a day and quit. I'm now a Pensioner/Senior Citizen, so that's one project that's fallen by the wayside, never to be achieved... but, That's Life! Russ. Portsmouth, UK.
You are right , the Spanish bayonetts Toledo steel are leaf spring knife , buy yourself a old Spanish Toledo bayonet that is unsharpend and you use a sharp file and a weetstone and leather strop , you will get a razorsharp durable knife that lasts.
Larrin! Stoked for this one. Y’all never miss
I was having a hard time sharpening my d2 knife today, can't seem to get a good edge on it. Never even considered blade geometry! Today also happens to be my birthday, this video was the best present I could receive!
For quick reference: 1) AEB-L/14C28N for toughness, 2) Magnacut for balance, 3) S90V/S110V for high hardness. I would say that CPM-3V is overall about the best, especially if it’s prepared by Carothers Delta 3V heat treatment.
What's the difference between toughness and hardness?
@@HemiHalfCentury Hardness is how resistant a blade is to getting dull. The harder a blade is, the longer it will keep an edge and theoretically it will take longer for it to need to be sharpened. Toughness is how much force it takes for a blade to be broken. A very hard blade will hold a very sharp edge longer, but you don't want to do things like chop wood with it.
And just like that Larrin dumps on 98% of knife reviewers and knife makers marketing hype bs with facts.
Absolutely savage and on the money.
Larrin is a national treasure.
I will take carbon steel all day every day!!!
It’s so great that he has a day job, so that he can be honest like this, even about his own product.
“Edge geometry is more important that steel or heat treatment.“ mind blown.
Buck with their dedication to what they choose to do teaming up with Magnacut could be what I have lived this long for. Geometry, heat treat, and steel combined with classic renewable materials is perfection.
Doc Thomas can tell us about steels so simply that everyone understands what he is talking about. That means he really understands what he is talking about deeply.
I remember when the meat packing company that I work for changed from steel knifes to stainless steel knives. Everyone had a lot of problems getting a stainless steel knife sharp, and the company line was once they were sharp. They’ll stay sharp longer. I always preferred the steel knife, faster to get sharp and easier to put a bevel on with the sharpening wheel. When you’re working eight hours with a knife, you want to be able to have it sharp, and the ability to get it sharp quick again.
Every time I get to hear Dr T, I learn a little more!
You brought the Legendary metallurgist, Larrin Thomas, master of knife steel!
This is the collab I didn't know I needed in my life.
Dr Thomas is amazing. You learn something new every day, and in this case interesting facts about knifes that relates to the steal used..
I really enjoyed this one. I have read the first book multiple times and learn more every time I read it. I am an enthusiast sharpener that is addicted to the science of knives and always strive learn how a person uses the knife b4 sharpening it for them. I buy knives strictly to experience the difference in steels/geometry and locking mechanisms.
Expertise exists. It’s important to acknowledge that, openly.
This is the best video on knives that I have ever seen. Of course one has to become very skilled at sharpening. But learn it once and use for a lifetime. Thanks so much.
I've been collecting knives for over 40 years, only have 2 magnacut knives so far and love them. One is a very slicey full flat grind with a 17 degree edge and one is a tougher tanto style with a 20 degree edge. Both exceed expectations. After using them for 9 months or so my first question when looking at new knives is 'Does it come in magnacut?'. I've heard that a few companies haven't figured out their heat treatment yet, so watch and wait on those but the ones who've figured it out are making superior blades.
Haven't had any issues with maintaining them, a KME sharpener with diamond plates makes short work of them. I put a nice edge on them when I got them and have only needed to strop them once so far after months of daily use.
Don't have his book, but I've watched his vids and website for some time. Good info and insights for us amateurs.
DUDE! What a great compression of ridiculous amounts of knowledge! It's helped me immensely in just a few minutes. I have so many steels that I confuse myself, this put a very good perspective on questions I had no idea how to answer 😊
When I saw it was Dr. Larrin Thomas and not some self-proclaimed expert, I sat up and paid attention. He's very knowledgeable and can back up what he says. But if this hasn't been mentioned already, his Dad is THE Devin Thomas, who is one of the best (if not, THE best) masters of Damascus steel production and one of the best knife makers in the US (if not worldwide).
I have two of Devin Thomas' kitchen knives and I would opt for a DT knife over any other knifemaker in the US (incl. Bob Kramer's knives). Genius runs in the family.
What I learned is that first, most people don’t grasp the importance of edge geometry as it applies to cutting tasks and second, most people didn’t want to accept that everything is a compromise.
There can’t really be a “best” steel for knives because different knives must be optimized for their intended use.
(Most people seem to get that a machete will never be good for filetting fish (ignoring the sheer size of the blade) but don’t think about the steel or edge geometry, for instance. Even if you grind a machete blade as sharp as a filetting knife it just won’t have the necessary flexibility. If it is made of a steel that gives it that flex it won’t be good for chopping brush or small trees regardless of edge geometry.)
He helped me realize why and how I sharpen d2 vs s30v vs m4 and I love how he explains angle vs cut
Such a GREAT VIDEO Zac! Dr. Thomas is THE MAN! I love CPM MagnaCut and so thankful for all the contributions Dr. Larrin Thomas has made! He makes it cool to be a Knife Nerd!
What a fascinating subject! And it’s guys like him who advance all of us with his technological breakthroughs. Thank God for these creative minds.
I watched this on a whim. Man what a great choice. I love this kid, so humble.
What a great interview. I can listen Dr. Larrin Thomas for hours and it's really fascinating what he knows.
Fantastic! Larrin has been a leader in knife steels for a long time. His dad is a genius knifesmith, too!
Geometry matters! Truth from knife knerds!
Mostly my knives are convec bevel especially on Bowie knives.
Geometry: note skilled enough yet to accomplish consistently, but convex on my heavy tools, Skandy on shapers, and saber on slicers. Thought to share?
This comment should be higher and pinned
I barely got into the video before hitting Amazon and ordering this book. I’ll have it Monday. I’m very excited to have the information condensed as described in the book’s details. Thanks!
I have bashed and abused my outdoor custom knife in magnacut at 62-63 hrc. Its nearly kitchen knife thin for most people and its never chipped or have anything wrong at the edge i love magnacut and hope it becomes a common steel in companies
And geometry is king always have been and always will be
I thin my knifes and keep em thin and often at low angles too
Great video! Love this. Thank you for sharing!
Geometry over steel and heat treatment is something that might take some time to realize. But very true.
And that includes not only the edge it self but also the entire blade.
Which in effect makes knife making or just shaping so interesting.
Dr. Thomas knows what he is talking about. I have had an interest in knife steels for over 40 years. Some of the biggest non-scientific experts on knife steel qualities are Kosher Slaughterers. The knife used in this profession has to be hand sharpened and the edge so smooth that the most sensitive fingernail cannot feel the slightest nick after the slaughter. Originally we used to use a 600 Carborundum stone to create a bevel and then slate stones to polish it smooth. But when the Japanese water stones came out, we mostly switched to that. Most use 6000-8000. I remember back then that many of our best knives used 440C, but one manufacturer switched to D2. It stayed smooth longer but was harder to work on. I inherited a knife from an old European shochet that was fantastic. It lasted sharp and smooth for many cuts and was easy to work on the stones. However, it was a carbon steel and was subject to corrosion. It had to be dried quickly or immersed in a tub of lime water to prevent corrosion.
Thank you Zac and Larrin! Great video. Dr. Thomas's influence on the knife world and steel science is profound. Awesome to witness scientific advancement in real time.
Thanks! This was very informative. Enjoying some of Dr. Larrin's magnacut in a new blade I just picked up.
I came out of this really appreciating CPM-154 and 154CM
CPM-154 has by far been my favorite steel for blades.
Great stuff! Loved hearing from someone who actually knows why a steel is better at its task, and how to make it better. Composition, heat treat, edge geometry all goes into it.
Im such a steel nerd and love Larin's work.
Outstanding presentation. Zac you helped us all by opening our vision and understanding in this area. I joined the website and getting the book as well.
Dr. Larrin Thomas, great guy, wicked sense of humor, oh and he's smart.....👏
I rarely encounter a UA-cam video that is this enlightening. Thank you for making it, Zac and Larrin. It’s truly appreciated.
I rewound, froze, and took notes! He's The Man!!
I was taught to try to create an "appleseed" edge geometry on my blades, of all sizes, to achieve a sharp, strong edge that resists chipping, rolling, and wear when cutting organic materials.
Knife Steel Nerds is the Pew Science of the knife industry. Doing gods work.
I recently ordered a Protech Malibu in Magnacut. Can't wait for it to arrive.
I was geeked out. I love learning new things. Captivating ❤⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
The man the myth the legend!
Zac thank you so much for your videos. Each one teaches and inspires me, making me more sure of my choice to enter the knife industry. I’ll definitely be reading that book!!!
Good information for sure. It's true what he says about the geometry. I was doing 15* while sharpening and the edges wouldn't last too long so now I do 15* to start and finish the edge with 20* and man do the edges stay sharper longer.
Thanks for featuring Dr. Thomas on this episode, Zac!
I'm reminded that I should have taken a more materials science and metallurgy direction in my engineering education than I did (I went the thermodynamics/heat transfer/fluid mechanics route). When I was in school, for some reason I didn't make the connection between my interests in knives and choosing an academic and career path that complemented that interest.
I’ve always love 154CM. Had great results with it.
154CM is SO YESTERDAY OLD NEWS! You need to upgrade to MAGNACUT
For me, it's 154CM or S30V in a Benchmade... I'm an Oregonian. 😉
@@realpropertymangement7640it’s sucks that benchmade is pricing a large portion of their customers with their pricing structure lately.
My favorite combination is the Scandandavian Grind and the carbon steel in the morakniv. Cut through tons of grapevines like butter and even a plastic barrel, it was hot to the touch! Why isnt this combination more common? For me the grind is also dead simple to sharpen, just put it flat against the sharpening stone. Thanks for the interview, it was so interesting to learn about the best blade steels out there!
Zac, since you're at Buck knives and they have some upcoming Magnacut knife projects, can we expect a future video on this?
Probably one of the best knife blade videos I've seen.
Yes greatly appreciated this video on knife steels in a easy to understand presentation well done , great in-depth knowledge
Well, my Hogue Deka in MagnaCut is the best folder I've ever owned. The blade steel is fantastic . Thank you, Dr. Thomas.
same
My favorite knife also
The man, the myth, the legend! Dr. Larrin Thomas himself! ❤
It's nice to see the Knife Steel Nerd on here. I've been following him for several years now.
This is good! Excellent steel recommendations!
I recall Larrin' (s Dad?) from bladeforums 20 yrs ago. I could tell he knew what he was talking about then. Bet he's proud bless y'all! I could still be fascinated discussing what a charpy test actually shows us.
I obviously need to get some magna cut!
I like d2 steel because it's tough but when its sharp it stays sharp.
I love it too.... currently, "out of fashion" but kinda funny to go watch videos from 10+ years ago where they are talking about it as a supersteel in same breath as s30v
I've tried several steels and have settled on D2. It's relatively cheap and easy to sharpen. It holds an edge well, too. Maybe corrosion resistance isn't as great as some of the higher end steels, but for a pocket knife, it works well.
Things like 154cm or s30v, I found to be overrated. They're difficult to sharpen and don't really hold an edge that much longer in my experience.
D2 steel, is one of the least tough steels out there, only the rest you mention, are true.
@greekveteran2715 I think toughness is more related to hardness. The harder the steel, the more brittle it will be. The type of steel is related to how hard you can forge it and its corrosion resistance. It's a trade-off. There's no reason why you can't make d2 softer/tougher from what I know of the blade making process/heat treatment.
@@anonanonymous1988 That's only true, for each steel independently. You can't make a D2 tough,it also usually never is lower than 60hrc which is still on the brittle side of steels. Rocwell hardness, hasn't to do with toughness as much as the quality and the type of the Steel. (D2, compared to Vanadis 4 Extra, or even CPM 3V all heat treated equaly to 60 hrc), D2 will still be WAY less tough than any of the 2 and both will also hold their edge way longer.It's the edge geometry, the type of steel and lastly the hrc, tha tdetermine, the toughness and edge stability. Even the way the knife was sharpened, will determine higher edge stability and edge retention.The reason most people complain about knives that their edge chips or rolls, is not the knives fault, but the users. All new (factory made knives) should be sharpened at least 2 to 3 times, and properly reprofiled, to a slight convex edge bevel,to avoid any chips or rolls,which also doesn't improve the edge stability 3 times more, but also improves the same ammount on edge retention and cutting performance.(Just some extra tips)
One of the Greatest single pieces of advice that one of my Mentors gave me when I was in my teens that become one of my "Immutable Life Laws" was....
ALWAYS under promise &
over deliver!!
Superb Vid Gents👊
Continued Success🍻
RP
Two of my favorite personalities in the 'knife world'.
....so glad I stumbled across this vid , spent an hour last night reading stuff on his site
Im always the elephant in the room but there is so much talk about steels being harder and harder and not losing the edge (which drives modern sales in the modern age) but as an old school british knife maker whos grandad was a knife maker and also surgeons tools in ww2... they made knifes softer so you could wack an edge on it easily in the field. It was like your daily task. Super hard knives are like electric cars (without personality) back in the day they would throw them away as a defect because they couldnt sharpen without a grindstone.
Thanks guys
Great guest! Really enjoyed it! Thank you, J
As usual completely absorbing and thoroughly interesting Zac your stuff is the best
I sent the Bowie video to a friend who is not a knife guy but is a history guy and he loved it so much he shared it with a friend who is starting to make his own knives
See what you started lol
Many thanks for this video. We are fortunate to have a chance to receive the insights that only a true expert can offer.
Much has been made clear.
This man has earned a spot on the Mount Rushmore of Knife Men
I have a HELLE GT hunting knife with LAMINATED steel. The hardest steel is a thin center laminate surrounded by more flexible and tough.
Also the full grain leather seats is very high quality and a good design.
Great explanation at the end. That’s exactly why a high-end Japanese knife with really strong steel will shatter if dropped. They holding an edge forever, but chip really easy. A really soft steel lasts much longer you just have to sharpen it more. Engineering is awesome😂
Thanks for this video. HUGELY informative!! Larrin, you're a knife God!
cool and smart guy, i think he has a lot more innovation left in him
Thanks for the engineering based truth about metals, edge geometry, tooling/manufacturing, and categories of steel being what makes blade characteristics.
Finally a guy that makes sense!
I can listen to this guy all day. I would love to see the test and performance data.
The legend himself!
His book on the history of steel is great too. Get both!
I got myself a buck alpha scout. Elite with magnacut, and it is the most amazingly sharp out of the box knife I have ever owned
Great video! Wow. I liked the steel breakdown by category. The edge geometry comment was something I had not heard put that way before.
7:07 no idea who they are talking about but that cute spider on the bottom right was a cool animation. 👍
Buck are some of the greatest knives out there for the money, made for anyone who can't spend a whole lot on a knife but still provide a great product that will serve us well for many years.My latest knife was nice skinner for 100 bucks with gut hook and S30V steel, it will be around forever.
Wow this has come so far when I first got into knives only 6 years ago.
I get a shitload of random emails. When one comes in from Knife Nerds - Dr. Thomas I always set aside a good few minutes to read the entire linked article. You can't skim them. Hell, part of the time you can't fully understand them the first time. Thanks for all you do GOAT Knife Nerd
Im still a 1085 kind of guy. I do love my 01 sandwiched in 1095. (Scandi grind all the way! With exception of flat grind secondary bevel)
I agree 100% about the edge geometry! I actually discovered that as a kid trying to make wooden spears or swords as sharp as i could.
Have you tried aebl/14c28n at 61-63hrc? It’s supposedly a stainless 52100 which is my favorite low alloy carbon steel. It should be just as tough with a bit better edge retention and about as easy to sharpen..plus stainless. 1085 is super easy to heat treat well though
@@ShoahBiz that's the thing! I'm not set up for heat treating these new steels. I heard one can heatreat 440 in a forge, but why bother. I'm just comfortable with carbon and it's usually accessable in scrap. I like historical replications. I'm curious of starting with bog iron, just not sure i got the stamina to form a bar of iron to steel.
@@willywantoknow2563 I’d like to try knife making one day. Nothing wrong with carbon true and a patina is really cool
@@ShoahBiz its addicting. First knife, my mentor made me use a series of files. Was a 10" medieval dagger made from a leafspring. Next few knives i used and old saw mill blade and got used to the grinder. Got a bunch of bar stock now to skip alot of the prepping steps. Probably the key to making a good knife is not really patience, but getting comfortable at the grind wheel and enjoying the process. The results, priceless and each blade has an origin story.