Guide to Tool Steel for Knife Makers
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- Опубліковано 3 чер 2024
- Tool steel. What is it and why should knife makers be interested? Plenty of info here for machinists, fabricators, makers and home shop tinkerers, too!
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"precision is made out of money" - love it!
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I love these distilled knowledge videos. Thanks for the practical summary of a complex topic.
yup .
Walter I just want to say I appreciate your willingness to share tips & info. I live in N. Ireland & it's a nightmare getting good knife steels. I buy it all from England & even then not easy. So videos like this help me define my search. I'm retired so my brain hurts when I use it too much😂😂. Thanks again, Hugo Dale.
Very informative Walter. Nicely explained in a simple straightforward manner. Oh and love that “ harder than a bag of chicken livers” 😂😂😂
I love 01. I'd use it exclusively if it was more rust-resistant. Just look at it wrong and it starts to rust, but what an edge it holds!
Thanks for the video. You solved many of my questions I had for years!
Brilliant - thanks for that Walter. A great resource to keep coming back to.
Lots of good info in this one. Thanks for the rundown.
Wonderful video. Giving the basic rundown in a simple and straightforward way everyone can understand.
I'm using O1 tool steel and I love it.
Thanks for sharing.
You are a wealth of knowledge and excellent communicator.
Good video Mr. Sorrells and thank you !
This was a very informative video - I even took notes!
Mahalo Walter! nice video, great information for the beginning smith.
Walter, thank you very much! This is probably the most informative video I have ever seen! Kudos, and I will like, subscribe and share. I like all your videos, but in my opinion this is the best one!
Thanks for the great vids. They really are in a sweet spot for those wanting to expand their knowledge of steel and knives but not overwhelmingly technical.
Very informative. Great explanation on different types of steel
Wonderful information for the curious.
Thanks
Great educational resource. Cheers & thanks. Many knifemakers put up vids but explain nothing. You explain in detail.
May your genorosity of time & effort be richly rewarded.
For anyone who needs some beginner info on 1084, 1095 and W2, absolutely huge enormous wall of text below... I’m bored clearly, but also I think certain bits of info can make a big difference as they did for me.
1084 is the easiest of that group. It will harden in oil, and it doesn’t require any precision as far as soaking it. You just heat it up and quench it in canola oil (or whatever you have, however I’ve had good luck with heated canola oil, even with 1095). You can easily use 1084 with a small single burner forge, or even a torch I’d imagine.
1095 is a little trickier. 1095 is right on the line between water and oil hardening, it’s “hyper-eutectoid”. This steel needs to be quenched very quickly. I don’t mean that you need to run to the quench from the forge (be brisk though), it just means that it has to drop from around 1300-1400 F to 800-900 F or so in less than a second (google the exact numbers if interested, I forget tbh). This is why people recommend fast quench oil like “Parks 50”. However, water will of course work, and even preheated canola oil will work. I’ve done both.
W2 is similar to 1095 in the sense that it has to be quenched quickly. This is no surprise as it’s water hardening steel 2. You can use fast quench oil here, but the only time I’ve done it I’ve used salty (with some dish soap in it also) water, slightly heated. Until recently I haven’t had fast oil available. Keep in mind also that water is a much safer method in terms of your safety and the shop’s, so that’s another thing to consider. 50 quench oil has a low flashpoint, and isn’t exactly edible. It’s also not cheap or easy to obtain. So learning how to use water isn’t a bad idea. W2 I used specifically for a hamon, and it did in fact give a nicer one than the 1095 I have.
Keep in mind that with both of these steels it is recommended that you “soak” them, so they aren’t necessarily the easiest steels for just heating something up and quenching it. If you use a forge or similar method, getting it right isn’t as easy as 1084 for example.
Your best bet is to get used to the colors, use a magnet, and try to at least get the steel to soak at above critical for a minute or two. Get it to that nice red, non magnetic color where the darker “shadow” spots go away, and let it go a bit higher into a that slightly orange, solid red color and try to hold it there (don’t go hotter at this point if you can, if anything let it slowly go back down a tiny bit, but obviously you have to be around the 1450 area still when you quench). If you can pull this off without over heating it TOO much to start with, it will come out well. You don’t need an oven, it’s just easier.
I actually bought a pyrometer with a ceramic thermocouple that can read up to 2200 F, but I found that it doesn’t help all that much without a really good implementation of it. If you can check the temp to get a reference between temp and color, that’s a good use of it I think. However it’s difficult to set it up in a forge that’s open where air moves through and the flame itself touches or doesn’t touch the blade. I think making a small confined section out of steel to put the knife in, where you can then monitor that small area, may work.
Also with water leave your grind thick before heat treat, that’s a good way to attempt to avoid cracks and warps. You can safely grind a lot of material after hardening, as long as you have some good belts, a bucket of water, and patience. Don’t wear gloves... if the blade is warm you’ll feel it. Also high quality ceramic lower grit belts like 36 take off more without causing as much heat. This is important to keep in mind. You can take off a lot of steel without the blade even becoming hot to the touch.
Mahalo
thanks for this info, its stuff like this thats hard to find for a young beginner like me
Hey. What steel would a gun barrel likely be? And to add a contrasting metal for a Damascus layering, what would you pair it with?
Thanks.
Doggo Willink Yup, water quenching has been around for thousands of years. Just got to find a way that works for you.
You can also interrupt the quench to avoid cracks, which is really the worse that can happen. Warping is not to much of an issue, and can be fixed.
Differentially hardening something like 1095 also helps with pinging and cracking.
I love Ur Videos! Really feels like i learn a ton watching! Thanks so much! Greetz from Austria
Another great video, thank you Sir!
Thanks Walter for solid info for the would be beginner knife maker.
Awesome video, sir.
Thank you so much for helping me understand the steel i need for a tool I'm making.
Great video! Learned a lot
Walter, this was a very instructional video and I enjoyed every little bit. An idea for a next video would be types of steel for hammers and tongues.
Thank You Mr. Sorrells
One thing that might have thrown a wrench at me was not normalizing after forging. I normalized the next two and found better results in my grinding. Stopped fighting the cracking issues, hopefully.
Great information clear and to the point, nicely done. Getting closer to jumping in (no fancy shop tools) hobby, not production.
Some of the best scavangible steel I have some across is snow plow cutting edge pieces. Also have had good luck with woods bushhog mower blades. Both steels are the toughest steel I have ever come across and are easily hardened.
Thanks for the redo an update thank 👍🙏
New sub, thanks for the content. I found your video very informative, and look forward to watching more from your channel.
Thanks for the info 👍
Thank you Walter for your clarification on steel kinds. Sixteen minutes of pure knowledge. Now it deliberately known why tools' steel is not perfect as some of the guys promote it on yt.
I was a toolmaker and engineer for 42 years. I have done some screwing around with tool steels. A couple things I want to add if I may. One is about S-7. If you get it up to temp, and quench, you will have to draw it down some. I've tested on RC up to 72. Which means it will be too hard and very brittle.
I've never took a regular tool steel up that far.
We would either have a vacuum furnace or tool wrap the A-2. It can lose some elements if this isn't done.
Be careful of M-42 Cobalt. It will also get too hard and shatter on you.
Still the best advice you can get is to keep it simple, and enjoy what you do. I am very much a novice at making knifes, but I enjoy making stuff out of old crap. My Uncle started me out in Blacksmithing when I was 8. I've enjoyed my career and was very lucky to do what I did. I got to work with some very smart people. Now I want to hammer steel, and pass on anything I can.
Good video Mr. Sorrells, thank you for posting!
Smiles.
Start a channel
It's impossible to get s7 to 72 hrc. m42 maybe if your heat treating tolerances are very tight
kutzbill dude we’d all like to hear from you. How can we contact you or you should really start a channel!
@@john wick
I ended up getting some O2 steel. I made a bowie knife with it (22cm blade length, 34cm overall). O2, i would say, has less flex than the other 2 steels and is a bit harder. I did a test blade, and it took a LOT(seriously) of force to break, with the blade having a width of 0.5 cm. Bear in mind, it didn't bend very much, it just broke instantly. It is also quite hard to sharpen, so there is a lot of elbow grease involved doing that. Lastly it rusts moderately easy if exposed to humidity for prolonged periods of time without any care, as does any high carbon steel, but thas not a problem for me.
All in all i find it an excellent steel for tools and bushcraft knives, or any knife for that matter, but i wouldn't make a sword with it since it lacks the flex/springiness needed.
Hope i covered you with the above. If you plan to make a knife with it and want any help with heat treatmnet temperatures, tell me and i might be able to dig up some papers i had for O2 steel.
P.S. I believe O2 steel is also known as k720 steel, so you can do a bit of research on your own, cheers
@@cadewamsley5934wrap it in stainless steel foil to prevent decarberizing take it to 1875 f then flush quench it in 150 f oil to 1000 f dull red. Then air cool to 150 f. It will go to 68 to 72 Rc. Temper it at 600 f before it goes below 125 f. Must do double tempering. This should give u a 56 to 60 Rc great cutting edge that will withstand alot of stress.
Your videos are excellent.. Thank you so much
Always great information. Thank you Walter.
Mitch Uebrick oioooooo
Mitch Uebrick oøöooooøøøppååæä'
Very helpful. Thank you.
Very usefull video. Thanks!
Great video thanks.
Very helpful video for a complete lay person!
I've got a milk crate full of big dies (30-40#) from a diecutting company that I used to work for and I always wondered if it was suitable for a camp knife. Now I think it must be, so I'm going to hunt around for a local knife maker who might trade the steel for a knife. Wish me luck!
my local steel place has drops (off cuts) O-1, A-2, D-2, etc at $1.25 / lb (they are typically around $10-13 / lb when bought full price). typically these have been in sizes and shapes.that stock removal guys wouldnt have much use for, but for smiths they are great. definatly worth checking out if your area has an open to the public steel supplier.
Great video, I love learning more metallurgy!! Thanks Walter
Could do a video like this one talking about CPM series of materials and their differences
Precision is made out of money - I like that!
Thank you!
I am just a knife lover, but different steels have different qualities, so this was interesting to me from that perspective. A-2 and D-2 are common knife steels. Excellent instructions with general basics on steels. When you say M series steel, I presume you do not mean M390. I will check out your knives.
I came into this knowing nothing, and left know something :)
Very,very interesting edition!You probably helped more people than you know.I've been making knives as a hobby for some time and there is a lot more knowledge here than I can say...THANKS!!!
How is the heat treatment with d2?
Great video also!
"I mean, it's harder than a bag of chicken livers, but it's not hard enough..."
LOL Walter. Love ya man.
O1 can be sourced as unground barstock. You don't have to pay for the precision. I was on a site out of Calgary Alberta, that sold it. They sold a variety of thicknesses as well. 1/16", 1/8", 5/32", 3/16", and 1/4". By the foot.
I knew nothing ,think I learn some.Thanks you helped
M2 is awesome knife steel. Key is asking them (best have the professionals do this one) to draw back the temper cycle to under full-hard, otherwise you will get chipping if you put too fine of an edge on it.
L6 steel was the steel that saw blades were made from before the advent of carbide tipped saw blades. When the lumber industry went to carbide tooling manufactures cut way back on making L6. There is a similar Chromium Nickel steel called 8670 that is available. I have only ever seen it in 3/16 stock so industry must have a very specific use for it. Kind of like you can only find 5160 in
.200 or .250. Retired Knife maker John Greco used to use 8670 on a lot of knives.
Thanks for the info. As a woodworker, I'm interested in handplane blades, so O1 should ok. For lathe tools, a HSS such as M2 is probably best. However, my question is about sharing a programmable oven with my daughter who is a glassworker. Do you know of any complications that might occur if steel is processed in the same oven as glass? My daughter is giving me the side-eye about this. She's concerned about cross-contamination of glass with steel residues that may alter the color or hardness of her art pieces.
Thank You.
S7 and L6 makes good choppers as well
I've made lots of punches and blanking dies out of S7. I've heard of people using it for chisels as well, I'm assuming that would mean it would probably be good for an axe or machete, maybe even a cleaver. Chopping tools. I do have to sharpen them quite frequently though. I'd guess its edge holding ability isn't great but it could just be heavy use.
Thank you for this video! Just getting started into stock removal and got some O1. Was worried when everything I was seeing was talking about a 20-30 soak time. What's your tempering procedure on O1?
What would be good for a axe head? Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Appreciated Sir.
Would you need a shock restaurant steel for the head of a throwing axe or is the mass enough that this won't be an issue
A wealth of information in a laid out, bare minimum amount of time. No, bull shit. I call this a win and clicked the thumbs up! Thank you for sharing on behalf the half million metal workers to come in the future.
What would you recommend for blacksmithing tools, my next project is to make the tools i need to make my own hammer. Just starting research now.
O1 can air harden some during forging so keep your temps up to prevent cracks. Great list of timeless tool steels! A2 is a great way to get started in the air hardening category but you need a pyrometer (omega online has good stuff) and stainless steel foil (321 is fine but worth saving for 309). Frustration is part of the ride. Be creative and have fun!
What steel would be best for a big game hunting knife? Skinning and cutting meat? Something that holds a good sharp edge and can be easy resharpen in field, that won't chip on bone? Thanks
L6 is used for sawmill bandsaw blades and is 0.75% carbon with 1.75% nickel plus some other alloys, it's great for bush craft knives or for forging with 1084 to make Damascus. Makes great ax heads too that you can leave hard around HR 59.
O1 has 0.5% of chrome and tungsten with 0.20% of vanadium which at that % restricts grain growth during heat treat a desirable thing, but if treated correctly you get chromium and tungsten carbides in the carbide matrix. That's why O1 is a great beginner's steel. Heat to 1475 for 15 minutes and you can use canola oil for the quench, then you temper in your oven at 425, let it heat up with the oven, for two hours two times. It will be about Rockwell hard C scale 59-60 which will hold and edge all day without being brittle because of that vanadium and manganese which all the steels have. If you're using a forge you heat until it becomes non-magnetic and hold it there for 5 minutes or so depending upon how hot your forge gets then quench and temper. Not as good as a heat treat oven, but it will be hard.
Could you please say something about PM Steels?
I bought CPM154 Steel and don’t know much about it...
what about T1 steel? will that make a good knife, if so how would I go about the heat treat?
In your experienced opinion, what steel would you say most commercial saw mill planer blades be made of? I have two big planer blades, One will be made into a Kephart blade.
Can AR 200 be used for knife making? I really enjoy your channel.
A-6 Tool Steel for swords? Anyone have any experience with this tool steel?
And thanks for another great video Walter!
Hi Walter ,
I have an old diamond tipped concrete cutting blade to practice knife making , “stock removal” I was under the impression given the nature of the blade it would be hard already. But it bent in the vice. I’ve seen a video a fella quenches in water and god a better result than oil. Could you recommend any tips to heat treat this type of steel?
I'm a new subscriber, and found your video very helpful. I'd like to make a couple knives and a drawknife for woodworking. You mentioned 1095 but didn't give much info about it, but that was one I was thinking of using. I'm not on ANY social media so those links don't help me.
1084 is a lot easier to heat treat than 1095
How timely. I was just having a long conversation about this. I have very easy access to tool steel locally, but steel like 1095 I have to order. As far as I know. Do you know anyone in the Atlanta area that carries other popular knife making steels? Thanks.
with releases like magnacut, there's a strong preference to stainless over stain"full"
Tops 154cm sells like hot cakes
Can't keep them stocked
Esee is releasing more and more in s35vn. People don't want the added maintenance and stress of having to constantly oil a tool or carbon steel blade, keep it dry, and separate from the sheath, and God help you if you're out in the forest with your wrinkler If it starts raining.
With 154cm you're good to go
Walter: I don't care what you do to it, it'll never get hard!
Me: *Carburizes it smugly*
Walter what is the best stainless steel for a beginner knife that will harden easy
Just wanted to ask you a quick question about RR spring clips what kind of steel do you think they are made of
freind of mine hardened an 8670 nickel steel blade in 140 degree water, doing an interrupted quench. blade came out straight and hard with no cracking.he says that hot water cools steel slower than cold water, but faster than ordinary oil.
01 steel for me. Just finished an axe head yesterday.
for the life of me i cant rember now the name but a top end knife maker said 1080 and 1085 was in his opinion the best to learn with because it was so forgiving to heat treat
Thank you mr. Sorrells or should I say professors Sorrells. I am currently enrolled at youtube U. I take all your classes lol.
I have made hardenable steel out of mild steel. If you want to see how to make files from mild steel watch clickspring make files.
If by chance you wanted to know what type/kind of steel is used in ie. Flexcut woodcarving tools. How would "you" Walter or whoever is so kind to answer this question, ask the company in a letter or whatever? Mostly they will say "High Carbon Steel". As you know there are a few different types of "High Carbon Steel". Most will not say is a D2 HC content. and Stainless Steel can come in types that are equal to and the quality can go up and down the scale like a musician on the scale. Some would not tell you with a bright light and a rubber hose used on them.
I have a bar of M2, (that was given to me) on my work bench, that's been there for months now. Every time I look at it, I get nauseous thinking about trying to do anything with it.
@ walter sorells what would high alloy mean ive tried but for the life of me cant pin this down i bought a couple of big armstrong wrenches to make stuff out of but want to get the best quality i can without haveing to guess to much for my quench seems it could be water or oil hardened should i just heat a few small pieces and test any advice would be apreciated thankyou for your time in advance
I came here after quenching chromoly chisels in mineral oil. Good enough to compete with S7 equivalents. Would gladly use L6 or 1075 steel for chisels if I could find them in the form of bars.
S5 btw is tougher at 60 hardness than any super steel. I used it forging axes.
So what would you say is the best beginner knife steel that I can easily get? I know you went into detail in the video but I’m wondering what you think is the best for me
How do you profile your knives? Just put it flat on your grinder?
walter thank you for all your utube vids;;;lots of information ;great style;;;watched your vids long before ibecame subscribed;;;true artist;;;;gerard cahill;;;[IRELAND]DUBLIN
1084 is also a great starter steel for heat treating... It's funny if you read all the keyboard cowboys talk about o1... "If you don't heat treat it in an oven, completely controlled, then you aren't doing it right... People that tell you it is an easy heat treat are WRONG!!" I've read that so many times, but I've done it both ways and really didn't see much difference... though heat treating with an oven is my prefered method with all my steel... Great video...take it easy...
1084 is great stuff, 80crv2 as well. I have for sure burned up quite a few o1 blade in a forge in the past, completely blown out grain size.
I've hardened O1 in an oven and with a torch. Both produce good results but an oven is a bit more reliable. Of all the tool steels mentioned it's probably the most forgiving when it comes to heat treatment.
Yeah, I've used it a few times, just to get the experience. If I'm gonna use tool steel, it would be W2 for the hamon or D2. Though, I might choose AEB-l over D2 and if I'm in the mood for a good workout CPM154, hahaha... I haven't tried any of the "Super steels"(CPM S35vn, etc), maybe one day though... I would like to try some CPM3v though, it is supposed to be the best carbon steel for toughness and edge retention...
Yeah, my friend got some 80crv2, but I've never tried it... I wish I had room for a forge. I do all stock removal. I did build a horizontal grinder and heat treat oven. I've got a few videos on heat treating too... Take it easy...
Siggy in CR I found W2 pretty easy, unless you are water quenching. I actually have a video where I tried making my own fast quench with 1/2 water 1/2 canola oil and a drop or 2 of dish soap, it worked pretty good, better than McMaster carr 11 second and didn't risk cracking like water...
does it cost to go to join patreon page?
I challenge you (and everyone) to make a knife from M2 or M3 HSS. That stuff is crazy. You can't anneal it, can't drill it except with a carbide bit, can't harden it, but that's OK, it's 65-68 RC anyway. I made 1 from flat stock, it's easy to sharpen razor sharp and holds an edge better than any steel I have seen. It's a little brittle, but not dangerous unless you do something stupid.
Excellent info as usual from Walter....
Would you use h series for hot cut tools?
Hi Walter
I live near a Gold Mine
Is the steel used for Drill Rod steel good for making knife's
I have access to all the used or broken Rods and Shanks etc
Cheers
Gary
I have no clue but I would probably think that it would be good for knives
Just a theory
Another interesting kind of steel are bearing steels. Maybe you could talk talk about them?
Dreadnought of blades usually 52100 steel from what I’m told. Some famous knife makers use it almost exclusively. I know nothing about heat treating it mainly because it would be nuts to forge a big bearing without a press. I know I’d have a red hot bearing rolling around my shop!
52100 is a nice one to mention.
Luis Tapia I was also shocked he didn’t mention 5160 for swords and axes. Granted, it is a spring steel and not as high carbon as a real tool steel, but it is great steel for beginners who want to make bigger blades.
Those are not tool steels though.
@@loul7239 luckily i can buy it in round stock 😉😂. I`ve also read about other bearing steels, but 52100 seems to be most known.
I once made a good knife from a bag of chicken livers! It held an edge rather better than you might expect -- the real problem was that it began to stink eventually, and I had to throw it away.