The fixed moves are designed to teach many aspects of the art, not just the one technique you're actually doing. This includes general footwork and concepts relating to it, concepts of center and how to keep it, general vulnerabilities in your own position and how to deal with them, and what kinds of vulnerabilities you should look for in an opponent. You'd be AMAZED how much you can learn by repeating a kata a few dozen times, and it's not limited to the individual techniques you're doing.
Excellent vid. The Yagyu guys are very deceptive in there techniques. I recently watched a Yagyu Shinkage Ryu enbu here in the states at our dojo and they had some wonderful ideas behind drawing your opponent in. Great Stuff.
Because the technique is to cut at the attacker's hands. Actually doing the technique at cutting maai with a bokuto will likely break your partner's hand, so for safety the maai is widened, and the sword is targeted. It allows the training of timing and angle of cut without danger of injury.
@applejuiceii I was referring to the two older gentlemen who were using bokken at the end. I wasn't asking what ki-ai is, or else I would not have made such a statement. Sorry for the misunderstanding it would appear I screwed up in my grammer there haha.
@tflLoTuS that's why they have 2 i guess. but in fact, musashi defeated a kusari-gama master by throwing his wakizashi. It's not common, which makes it effective.
This is not just choreography. These katas are the core of yagyu. The first two are sangaku and ha-sei (sorry for spelling). That is the extent of my yagyu training but I believe chudan Kata is in there also.
Ah, thank you for your answer perhaps, though it still bothers me. i would very much like to know, perhaps i will have to train in this style now so i can find out.
MrChompiras is a well-fed troll, yes he is. I'd offer him a few nuggets, but I've got machete-work to be done(FIlipino Sword Arts Represent) given how inspiring it is to see such dedicated and meticulous performances. All united in arms, all united in training, fellow sword-arts students!
@tflLoTuS nevertheless throwing a sword is a very common technique. There was a famous samurai who became very old and won a lot of duells. When he was asked what his secret was he said: when I touched my enemies blade tip, I knew if I would win or not. If I felt he was to strong, I threw my sword at him and ran away. Keep in mind in this Kata here the sword is thrown in a way that the other partner can practice deflecting it. Especially in a performance it would look bad to actually hit.
@tflLoTuS While swords in Japan and Europe were much more than weapons, to assume that because of that no one would EVER throw one is nieve. if you throw it and miss you might be well be in trouble,if I have two weapons, so I am closing in as i do so and drawing a secondary weapon or closing to grapple.
Couple questions: What type of shinai or bokken are they using? It looks like the middle pair is hammering each others kota...or are they just that good that they stop before they hit? and he threw his sword at the end? the sword is the essence of the samurai why would he throw it?
I'm not sure exactly which cuts you're referring to, but sometimes "false" cuts are used in Kata to simulate a particular move that would work with slightly different footwork. A simple example would be a cut where the attacker is backing away, like at 9:32 (the man on the right). Try to imagine the move with a step into his opponent, or a more lateral step, etc. Practitioners often know of these subtle parts of katas, and perform what looks like a false cut, but with a different mental intent.
You're right but I've seen this move in Kendo Kata as well... I'm not sure what it means but I think it is kind of a mutual agreement to start the next part of the combat with crossed swords, just like fencer often start with the tips of the blades touching each other...
@SayamakaAsagi becouse I can use same technic from Iaido kata, movement and check it in practice. Of course use clean kata in fight may be trouble (or imposible), but if your body know what to do it will does it (I'm shure that I don't need to tell how healthy and effective is body whose training something, not only marshal arts, for example dance also give a lot of movement and speed) If I'm right in ARMA peaple also use "kata" to training.
@tflLoTuS I would suggest that though a sword is many thing to the warriors who use them from any culture, it is a weapon and if you can kill your opponent with it by throwing it at them then it will happen, you notice that it is about dealing with the thrown sword,not about throwing the sword. In medieval europe often the rules for a judicial duel would disallow the throwing of swords!
yes. its training for combat. and thats why during the edo jidai it was practice much more dynamically. hence my point. that its not practised as it used to be.
@SayamakaAsagi I'm from a ryu which beleives in sparring. But there is not much point in keeping to fight lesser foes, in your case, your friend who do not train. Try to fight with your trained buddies, with the stronger ones preferably, with no protector if possible, let it hurt, force your body to fight under pressure, when the threat is as realistic as it gets, you won't beleive the results you'll start to get even in a few weeks.
6:45 That second and final strike to the right man's forearm seemed like it might have been a mistake, just seemed a fraction of a second hesitant and his partner took a little step back as if to accomodate the error. Or I might be reading too much into it!
I think that the complaints about "fixed moves" regularly heard in regards to some traditional martial arts, whilst pointing to a valid criticism in the case of imbalanced training, are part of a misunderstanding caused by differences in aesthetics. Boxers train fixed moves all the time as, I would suppose, do mixed martial artists. It is one of the best methods for learning techniques and you can't progress far without it. How do you imagine that boxers could otherwise train combinations?
I dont think so.In Kendo the position is called kensen(barring spelling) and is not arrived at with speed or force like these cuts were.Kensen is also usually performed in a low kamai-low enough to cut the femoral artery if you walked onto it. Sounds like a good explanation though.
I cannot believe that all of you think that budo is only about fighting. True, kenjutsu and iaido are both the practice of killing people, but that is not the essence of budo. On a lighter note, wow! Yagyu shinkage ryu really does have a technique of throwing the sword! I have heard of this, but did not think it was true until now! Guess wikipedia can be reliable sometimes (^.^)
Not suggesting that it is an effective idea, but your question was why would they do it. well who knows but the point is that people obviously did it otherwise there would not be the movement in the kata nor would there be rules for duels forbidding it. It may be a desperate move, but desperate and unpredictable are things that can win a fight. If the sword is the essence of the warrior and the goal of the warrior is to strike done the opponent then doing it with a throw could fit!
AHH Gotta go to an actual training session at a dojo. This is an embu. Your only going to see set kata. The same set in every embu basically. I saw a training session at a dojo once, those guys where going at it!!
that argument can be made of anything being done post edo jidai. kind of point not to be made at all really. and kata is a formula for teaching. its not supposed to be 'combat'. combat is combat. training is training.
the traditional aspect of this may ruin somebody view of how it work but if you are fencer I sure you see the angle and trick in this video. Kata is just alphabet not a poem everybody have to learn how to write first before one can write a poem isn't it :)
A lot of this makes zero sense. Even near the beginning when they clash vertically and the one with the left foot wins with cross alignment, a little later the same thing is done the other way around, and the left foot forward loses. There's no other shown difference. Sometimes the "winner" gets hit in the middle of the maneuver, because the moves don't work, even choreographed.
Which foot forward has nothing to do with making the technique work. As for moves not working “even choreographed,” what you’re picking up on is that the moves are not choreographed.
@OneMindAnyWeapon While a sword is still just a weapon, it is also so much more especially in japanese culture (even in the edo period with the decline of samurai and many out of a job, they refused to sell them to feed their families) Also throwing your sword is pretty much defeat. You throw it, you miss (or opponent blocks) now what? you have no weapon. Its a sign of utter desperation and you have already lost. While there is an off chance, youre better off keeping it and fighting.
Hmm, do you really learned Kenjutsu for many years, and you don't know how to fight? Who said that you can not fight against your friend/colleagues to improve your skill in kenjutsu? Kata is not all, but it is important. In my opinion this is imposible to training marshal arts without fight (of course not fight to death, but with some protectors). I'm training Iaido, but I'm really like to "fight" with my friends, who don't training any marshal art, and this is good training...
@068856 殺人剣 satsujin ken.. aka murdering techniques, heh, when you have to win at any cost. it's a weapon not only a shrine. respect it but don't worship it. it is always a tool for killing.
its too bad that most kenjutsu is now so ceremonial and formulaic. obviously its not a viable fighting system but its too bad its lost its "umph". i mean katori shinto ryu is pretty dynamic, but now even that looks kind of watered down compared to the old videos of otake sensei in the just the 80's. wouldve loved to have seen this stuff done 300 years ago.
![Owarikan Ryu Yagyu Shinkage Ryu - Shunpukan Dojo - Meiji Jingu Kobudo Taikai 2019 [FHD 60fps]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ARtlJamVrf4/mqdefault.jpg)
Outstanding and excellent! I would love to study with these Masters at their dojo!!
The fixed moves are designed to teach many aspects of the art, not just the one technique you're actually doing. This includes general footwork and concepts relating to it, concepts of center and how to keep it, general vulnerabilities in your own position and how to deal with them, and what kinds of vulnerabilities you should look for in an opponent. You'd be AMAZED how much you can learn by repeating a kata a few dozen times, and it's not limited to the individual techniques you're doing.
nice. thanks KW for sharing these vids. it is good to see quality video of so many koryu
Like the sword throwing and deflection! LOL all of it was superb!!
along with mizoguchi and ono ha ittoryu and tsksr i want to learn this as well
Excellent vid. The Yagyu guys are very deceptive in there techniques. I recently watched a Yagyu Shinkage Ryu enbu here in the states at our dojo and they had some wonderful ideas behind drawing your opponent in. Great Stuff.
Because the technique is to cut at the attacker's hands. Actually doing the technique at cutting maai with a bokuto will likely break your partner's hand, so for safety the maai is widened, and the sword is targeted. It allows the training of timing and angle of cut without danger of injury.
Also it's a misunderstanding of kata training. One fixed move might be several techniques but people do not understand that kata is not technique.
check out the amazing timing at 5:14, looks like he is hit but actually has his leg out of the way barely in time... very clever, very skillful stuff!
the yagyu looks actually great
@applejuiceii I was referring to the two older gentlemen who were using bokken at the end. I wasn't asking what ki-ai is, or else I would not have made such a statement. Sorry for the misunderstanding it would appear I screwed up in my grammer there haha.
@tflLoTuS that's why they have 2 i guess. but in fact, musashi defeated a kusari-gama master by throwing his wakizashi. It's not common, which makes it effective.
@bin1127 - Yes, In a fictional novel, he did do just that.
I salute you at you keenness; you are really good observer.
This is not just choreography. These katas are the core of yagyu. The first two are sangaku and ha-sei (sorry for spelling). That is the extent of my yagyu training but I believe chudan Kata is in there also.
Ah, thank you for your answer
perhaps, though it still bothers me. i would very much like to know, perhaps i will have to train in this style now so i can find out.
Absolutely great!
I refer to the cuts made blade to blade with both persons about 2 1/2 feet out of proper maai without having to taisabaki to avoid cut
MrChompiras is a well-fed troll, yes he is. I'd offer him a few nuggets, but I've got machete-work to be done(FIlipino Sword Arts Represent) given how inspiring it is to see such dedicated and meticulous performances.
All united in arms, all united in training, fellow sword-arts students!
@tflLoTuS nevertheless throwing a sword is a very common technique. There was a famous samurai who became very old and won a lot of duells. When he was asked what his secret was he said: when I touched my enemies blade tip, I knew if I would win or not. If I felt he was to strong, I threw my sword at him and ran away.
Keep in mind in this Kata here the sword is thrown in a way that the other partner can practice deflecting it. Especially in a performance it would look bad to actually hit.
@tflLoTuS While swords in Japan and Europe were much more than weapons, to assume that because of that no one would EVER throw one is nieve.
if you throw it and miss you might be well be in trouble,if I have two weapons, so I am closing in as i do so and drawing a secondary weapon or closing to grapple.
Couple questions:
What type of shinai or bokken are they using? It looks like the middle pair is hammering each others kota...or are they just that good that they stop before they hit?
and he threw his sword at the end? the sword is the essence of the samurai why would he throw it?
I'm not sure exactly which cuts you're referring to, but sometimes "false" cuts are used in Kata to simulate a particular move that would work with slightly different footwork. A simple example would be a cut where the attacker is backing away, like at 9:32 (the man on the right). Try to imagine the move with a step into his opponent, or a more lateral step, etc.
Practitioners often know of these subtle parts of katas, and perform what looks like a false cut, but with a different mental intent.
You're right but I've seen this move in Kendo Kata as well... I'm not sure what it means but I think it is kind of a mutual agreement to start the next part of the combat with crossed swords, just like fencer often start with the tips of the blades touching each other...
What do you expext, one of them split the others skull with a bokken?
@SayamakaAsagi becouse I can use same technic from Iaido kata, movement and check it in practice.
Of course use clean kata in fight may be trouble (or imposible), but if your body know what to do it will does it (I'm shure that I don't need to tell how healthy and effective is body whose training something, not only marshal arts, for example dance also give a lot of movement and speed)
If I'm right in ARMA peaple also use "kata" to training.
@tflLoTuS I would suggest that though a sword is many thing to the warriors who use them from any culture, it is a weapon and if you can kill your opponent with it by throwing it at them then it will happen, you notice that it is about dealing with the thrown sword,not about throwing the sword.
In medieval europe often the rules for a judicial duel would disallow the throwing of swords!
I applaud your explanation
yes. its training for combat. and thats why during the edo jidai it was practice much more dynamically. hence my point. that its not practised as it used to be.
@SayamakaAsagi I'm from a ryu which beleives in sparring. But there is not much point in keeping to fight lesser foes, in your case, your friend who do not train. Try to fight with your trained buddies, with the stronger ones preferably, with no protector if possible, let it hurt, force your body to fight under pressure, when the threat is as realistic as it gets, you won't beleive the results you'll start to get even in a few weeks.
6:45 That second and final strike to the right man's forearm seemed like it might have been a mistake, just seemed a fraction of a second hesitant and his partner took a little step back as if to accomodate the error. Or I might be reading too much into it!
@8:03 through the end:Enpi no Tachi
Does anyone know sensei and dojo's name ? Thank you.
Japan's yagyu shinkage ryu.
I think that the complaints about "fixed moves" regularly heard in regards to some traditional martial arts, whilst pointing to a valid criticism in the case of imbalanced training, are part of a misunderstanding caused by differences in aesthetics. Boxers train fixed moves all the time as, I would suppose, do mixed martial artists. It is one of the best methods for learning techniques and you can't progress far without it. How do you imagine that boxers could otherwise train combinations?
Good explanation
I dont think so.In Kendo the position is called kensen(barring spelling) and is not arrived at with speed or force like these cuts were.Kensen is also usually performed in a low kamai-low enough to cut the femoral artery if you walked onto it.
Sounds like a good explanation though.
I cannot believe that all of you think that budo is only about fighting. True, kenjutsu and iaido are both the practice of killing people, but that is not the essence of budo.
On a lighter note, wow! Yagyu shinkage ryu really does have a technique of throwing the sword! I have heard of this, but did not think it was true until now! Guess wikipedia can be reliable sometimes (^.^)
and showed a huge respect to
why the false cuts at around 9:11-9:30,both targets were way to far away to be legitimate attempts at cutting.
日本の古武道は素晴らしいですね
李健銘 そですね!
Not suggesting that it is an effective idea, but your question was why would they do it. well who knows but the point is that people obviously did it otherwise there would not be the movement in the kata nor would there be rules for duels forbidding it. It may be a desperate move, but desperate and unpredictable are things that can win a fight.
If the sword is the essence of the warrior and the goal of the warrior is to strike done the opponent then doing it with a throw could fit!
wow now that's a Ki-ai scared me through the headphones lol
@MrTheChompiras ....or kata? Why not investigate some of these ryu more closely and then comment
AHH Gotta go to an actual training session at a dojo. This is an embu. Your only going to see set kata. The same set in every embu basically. I saw a training session at a dojo once, those guys where going at it!!
5:15 That looked like a mistake. He got hit in the knee? 6:46 Lol he lost count?
@MrTheChompiras - cool.
9:40: He trough the katana very soft, if really trough it, it would have killed/injured him.
that argument can be made of anything being done post edo jidai. kind of point not to be made at all really. and kata is a formula for teaching. its not supposed to be 'combat'. combat is combat. training is training.
Kata also reflects in combat. You open new possibilities with each new kata.
A great tool for learning.
the traditional aspect of this may ruin somebody view of how it work but if you are fencer I sure you see the angle and trick in this video. Kata is just alphabet not a poem everybody have to learn how to write first before one can write a poem isn't it :)
Chikara !!
he threw his katana!!!!!
A lot of this makes zero sense.
Even near the beginning when they clash vertically and the one with the left foot wins with cross alignment, a little later the same thing is done the other way around, and the left foot forward loses. There's no other shown difference. Sometimes the "winner" gets hit in the middle of the maneuver, because the moves don't work, even choreographed.
Which foot forward has nothing to do with making the technique work. As for moves not working “even choreographed,” what you’re picking up on is that the moves are not choreographed.
@068856 That' scary....
and I, if it would have been allowed, agree with
@SayamakaAsagi We never got to fight, and I've never seen anyone in a video or live fight. Stop using Google translate to argue with me.
@OneMindAnyWeapon While a sword is still just a weapon, it is also so much more especially in japanese culture (even in the edo period with the decline of samurai and many out of a job, they refused to sell them to feed their families) Also throwing your sword is pretty much defeat. You throw it, you miss (or opponent blocks) now what? you have no weapon. Its a sign of utter desperation and you have already lost. While there is an off chance, youre better off keeping it and fighting.
9:41 WTF?
9:42 omg wtff? he isresprcte the katana!?!?!!!!
This is like frottage.
Hmm, do you really learned Kenjutsu for many years, and you don't know how to fight? Who said that you can not fight against your friend/colleagues to improve your skill in kenjutsu? Kata is not all, but it is important. In my opinion this is imposible to training marshal arts without fight (of course not fight to death, but with some protectors). I'm training Iaido, but I'm really like to "fight" with my friends, who don't training any marshal art, and this is good training...
@068856 殺人剣 satsujin ken.. aka murdering techniques, heh, when you have to win at any cost. it's a weapon not only a shrine. respect it but don't worship it. it is always a tool for killing.
threw
well, I can express my pity only to you regarding your opinion related to trough; I eat not pigs only, lambs as well. I hope not only me alone.
its too bad that most kenjutsu is now so ceremonial and formulaic. obviously its not a viable fighting system but its too bad its lost its "umph". i mean katori shinto ryu is pretty dynamic, but now even that looks kind of watered down compared to the old videos of otake sensei in the just the 80's. wouldve loved to have seen this stuff done 300 years ago.
My Wu-Tang sword can defeat all of em
INDEED