As someone with 40 years of years marathon & ultramarathon experience, I totally agree with your suggestion that folks will benefit from training & racing shorter distances. The shorter, faster workouts will increase strength & efficiency. However, beyond the added weekly mileage, there is no (zero) physiological benefit to 'back-to-back' long runs or 'over distance' long runs. And as you note, there is considerable risk of injury. As distance runners, we rarely get injured running 'too fast.' But we do get injured running on tired legs with poor form.
Running my second marathon after my first in 2018. Been running long trail runs (50+ miles), longer road races (100 mile) plus shorter road races (5k, 10k, 15k). Back to back LRs were a staple with a half marathon distance day one and then a 50k the next for 100 mile training. Lots of fast, steep downhills for trail ultras. PRs in all my short distances last year. Time to BQ in December hopefully as I'm super strong, fit and healthy 3 years later from all the variation in my training. Looking to go sub 3:25 at 60 years old.
I PRd my HM and Marathon this past August and October, and I used all of these strategies--probably picked up from binge watching your many other videos. Sometimes I didn’t do back to back long runs, but I always incorporated (2) long runs per week --a “shorter” and “longer” long run as you have laid out in other vids. I can’t give you ALL the credit for my PRs, but between your content and another UA-camrs content (plus one strategy of my own), I put together really solid performances, and both races were negative split. Thanks for all of your tips, coach!
I just finished my first marathon and I am surprised on how well my body recovered (beside my left knee) even though my time was passed 5h. After my recovery I want to focus on strength training and speed / tempo workouts to improve my pace to make long runs shorter. 10 months ago I did a 1.5 mile run slower than my pace at the marathon and so I hope to continue that improvement.
Finally some real advice. Back to the basics for speed and carry that through for longer distance. Also, on the flip side, huge advocate for back to back long run workouts. Has helped my endurance and marathon times tremendously!
Thank you, will take your advice. I just completed by first marathon (Chicago) and definitely could use a break from the long runs. I will work on speed; very timely video.
Well i seem to have broken the dont run more than 3+ hours as my 22 milers take me around 4 hours 40. And ive done 4 of them. I did manage 40 miles per week for those weeks though, so aside from the recovery 2 days after, it didnt feel likeover training. Training for my first marathon and aiming to not hit the wall on race day. I want to do it in uder 5 hours. The mental capacity to keep going gained from those several 22 milers on trails has given me plenty confidence. Ive been listening to too much David Goggins... as youre only at 40% when it starts to hurt. I have done the taper so thats good.
40mpw is ridiculous for 22 mile runs. You shouldn’t need much mental strength to get thru your workouts. I didn’t feel easy doing runs that long until I ran close to 90mpw
@@fastinradfordable its the mental strength for the marathon itself. As it was my first time. 90 mpw is a bit excessive. Your long run should be a third of your weekly mileage. The whole point of 22 miles is to say i only have 4 miles to go on race day that i didnt do before rather than 10 daunting miles. I did it in 4 hours 47 for the full 26.2 miles without hitting the wall on my first time. I am a slow runner, but still achieved it which is the main thing. Can always improve after the first attempt.
Love these tips. I've done two long-ish runs (8's not that long, but 8.5, 16) back-to-back, because I didn't want to miss an F1 race. You definitely feel combining longer-ish distances, but it helps you understand how to run while fatigued.
After doing my first two marathons in 2019, I had grand plans of doing a bunch of half marathons in 2020. You can guess how well that went, but I did speed up at all shorter distances, so I think my marathon PR is pretty soft at this point & I am waiting for the right moment to do another & hopefully drop my time in it by a bunch.
Great video! This back to back sessions on f.ex a weekend sounds like a very interesting idea. Getting older (soon 65) I struggle with the long runs… “Dividing” it into two not so long runs but on consecutive days I think I get, at least, the same effect with the additional plus of including some marathon pace on day 2. Total volume will be the same. Will certainly try this out! Thanks for interesting videos!
All excellent suggestions, except I think for the idea of putting in faster miles at the beginning of a long run. Negative splits is something that you have to learn through practice; I didn’t get it till my third marathon. I’ve found that I am more injury prone when I’m slogging along slowly and my form has broken down after I should have stopped. At least that’s been my experience
Each has its pros and cons! Sometimes doing the faster running while fresh is best, other times you want to focus on running fast when tired. This is a "yes and yes" scenario where both have value. No need to choose!
Thank you Jason! I'm at the very beginning of my first marathon training block coming off of collegiate xc season which will wrap up here in a couple weeks with the goal of racing in February. Any advice as I'm really kicking up miles for the first time to 65+? Goal time for the marathon is going to be 2:44
I think i'm almost doing part of the multiple 'long run' tip training for my HM at the moment - with how my shift work falls I'm constantly running between 8-12 miles, 6 days a week (this week and last) and hitting two 60 mile weeks (highest I've been, but I've only been running *nearly* Two years) - I feel like I've come on a lot in that time, I was a sprinter in school but fell out of it after being hit by a car and then got lazy.
Double long run are very good, but tripple in 24 hours also works wonders. Say you want to do 45km longrun on a weekend. Start Saterday afternoon at say 16:00 with a 15km runs, the next morning 15km and the afternoon another 15km but it must end at 16:00 giving 45km in 24 hours. More advance runners can start their first run slowerand make each run 10-15 seconds faster than previous run. Its good to go up to 60km in 24 hours in this way.
Great video - always love your content, Jason. As someone who has been on the marathon PR push for 4+ years now and trying to get into Boston, I'm absolutely ready to train for something different. Crossing my fingers I'm in for 2022 and after that, I'm taking a break from the marathon for sure and looking forward to focusing on strength and some shorter races/
Thanks Jason, one of those 4hr30 runners you mentioned so definately will look at the double long run start of next year working towards an April marathon. lve been looking at plyometrics and of course technique to stop quad fatigue (1901b runner). What would be the one exercise i could do to help this the most?
It's not about one exercise (or one workout.... or one distance long run). It's about the total body of work. Just follow best practices for gaining strength and endurance (and maybe run a less hilly course!)
Quads? May I recommend thekneesovertoesguy Walking backwards uphill will shock you how that feels! I have a 100 yard hill. I do backwards-forwards repeats. Walk backwards up, jog down, sprint forward up, walk normal back down... Tib raises too. Lotsa good things from Ben!!!
Ah man I was hoping you’d talk about back to back long runs. Great explanation and I can see how to use it. How do you think this would work for someone training for a middle distance run?
For something like 10mi and less, I don't think back to back long runs would be very helpful. There are better things to focus on for those distances...
As someone with 40 years of years marathon & ultramarathon experience, I totally agree with your suggestion that folks will benefit from training & racing shorter distances. The shorter, faster workouts will increase strength & efficiency. However, beyond the added weekly mileage, there is no (zero) physiological benefit to 'back-to-back' long runs or 'over distance' long runs. And as you note, there is considerable risk of injury. As distance runners, we rarely get injured running 'too fast.' But we do get injured running on tired legs with poor form.
Running my second marathon after my first in 2018. Been running long trail runs (50+ miles), longer road races (100 mile) plus shorter road races (5k, 10k, 15k). Back to back LRs were a staple with a half marathon distance day one and then a 50k the next for 100 mile training. Lots of fast, steep downhills for trail ultras. PRs in all my short distances last year. Time to BQ in December hopefully as I'm super strong, fit and healthy 3 years later from all the variation in my training. Looking to go sub 3:25 at 60 years old.
I PRd my HM and Marathon this past August and October, and I used all of these strategies--probably picked up from binge watching your many other videos. Sometimes I didn’t do back to back long runs, but I always incorporated (2) long runs per week --a “shorter” and “longer” long run as you have laid out in other vids. I can’t give you ALL the credit for my PRs, but between your content and another UA-camrs content (plus one strategy of my own), I put together really solid performances, and both races were negative split. Thanks for all of your tips, coach!
I just finished my first marathon and I am surprised on how well my body recovered (beside my left knee) even though my time was passed 5h. After my recovery I want to focus on strength training and speed / tempo workouts to improve my pace to make long runs shorter. 10 months ago I did a 1.5 mile run slower than my pace at the marathon and so I hope to continue that improvement.
Finally some real advice. Back to the basics for speed and carry that through for longer distance. Also, on the flip side, huge advocate for back to back long run workouts. Has helped my endurance and marathon times tremendously!
Thank you, will take your advice. I just completed by first marathon (Chicago) and definitely could use a break from the long runs. I will work on speed; very timely video.
One of the best video from you Jason. Thanks for the ideas 😊🙏🏾
Great video. Confirmed my thinking to take a break from the marathon this spring and focus on mile to 5k training
Well i seem to have broken the dont run more than 3+ hours as my 22 milers take me around 4 hours 40. And ive done 4 of them. I did manage 40 miles per week for those weeks though, so aside from the recovery 2 days after, it didnt feel likeover training. Training for my first marathon and aiming to not hit the wall on race day. I want to do it in uder 5 hours. The mental capacity to keep going gained from those several 22 milers on trails has given me plenty confidence. Ive been listening to too much David Goggins... as youre only at 40% when it starts to hurt. I have done the taper so thats good.
40mpw is ridiculous for 22 mile runs.
You shouldn’t need much mental strength to get thru your workouts.
I didn’t feel easy doing runs that long until I ran close to 90mpw
@@fastinradfordable its the mental strength for the marathon itself. As it was my first time. 90 mpw is a bit excessive. Your long run should be a third of your weekly mileage. The whole point of 22 miles is to say i only have 4 miles to go on race day that i didnt do before rather than 10 daunting miles. I did it in 4 hours 47 for the full 26.2 miles without hitting the wall on my first time. I am a slow runner, but still achieved it which is the main thing. Can always improve after the first attempt.
Love these tips. I've done two long-ish runs (8's not that long, but 8.5, 16) back-to-back, because I didn't want to miss an F1 race. You definitely feel combining longer-ish distances, but it helps you understand how to run while fatigued.
After doing my first two marathons in 2019, I had grand plans of doing a bunch of half marathons in 2020. You can guess how well that went, but I did speed up at all shorter distances, so I think my marathon PR is pretty soft at this point & I am waiting for the right moment to do another & hopefully drop my time in it by a bunch.
Great video!
This back to back sessions on f.ex a weekend sounds like a very interesting idea.
Getting older (soon 65) I struggle with the long runs… “Dividing” it into two not so long runs but on consecutive days I think I get, at least, the same effect with the additional plus of including some marathon pace on day 2. Total volume will be the same. Will certainly try this out! Thanks for interesting videos!
Thanks for this great information
Great stuff Jason
Great video. "Unconventional" in the title really pulled me in.
All excellent suggestions, except I think for the idea of putting in faster miles at the beginning of a long run. Negative splits is something that you have to learn through practice; I didn’t get it till my third marathon. I’ve found that I am more injury prone when I’m slogging along slowly and my form has broken down after I should have stopped. At least that’s been my experience
Each has its pros and cons! Sometimes doing the faster running while fresh is best, other times you want to focus on running fast when tired. This is a "yes and yes" scenario where both have value. No need to choose!
@@JasonFitzgerald thank you so much for replying! Well said. Love the channel!
Thank you Jason! I'm at the very beginning of my first marathon training block coming off of collegiate xc season which will wrap up here in a couple weeks with the goal of racing in February. Any advice as I'm really kicking up miles for the first time to 65+? Goal time for the marathon is going to be 2:44
Great talk!
I think i'm almost doing part of the multiple 'long run' tip training for my HM at the moment - with how my shift work falls I'm constantly running between 8-12 miles, 6 days a week (this week and last) and hitting two 60 mile weeks (highest I've been, but I've only been running *nearly* Two years) - I feel like I've come on a lot in that time, I was a sprinter in school but fell out of it after being hit by a car and then got lazy.
I really like the back-to-back idea. Did it once in a training block with 27k+16k but without the marathon pace idea. Thanks.
Double long run are very good, but tripple in 24 hours also works wonders. Say you want to do 45km longrun on a weekend. Start Saterday afternoon at say 16:00 with a 15km runs, the next morning 15km and the afternoon another 15km but it must end at 16:00 giving 45km in 24 hours. More advance runners can start their first run slowerand make each run 10-15 seconds faster than previous run. Its good to go up to 60km in 24 hours in this way.
Hai jason , love to hear more about 5k training
Great video - always love your content, Jason. As someone who has been on the marathon PR push for 4+ years now and trying to get into Boston, I'm absolutely ready to train for something different. Crossing my fingers I'm in for 2022 and after that, I'm taking a break from the marathon for sure and looking forward to focusing on strength and some shorter races/
Interesting suggestions
Thanks Jason, one of those 4hr30 runners you mentioned so definately will look at the double long run start of next year working towards an April marathon. lve been looking at plyometrics and of course technique to stop quad fatigue
(1901b runner). What would be the one exercise i could do to help this the most?
It's not about one exercise (or one workout.... or one distance long run). It's about the total body of work. Just follow best practices for gaining strength and endurance (and maybe run a less hilly course!)
Quads?
May I recommend thekneesovertoesguy
Walking backwards uphill will shock you how that feels!
I have a 100 yard hill.
I do backwards-forwards repeats.
Walk backwards up, jog down, sprint forward up, walk normal back down...
Tib raises too.
Lotsa good things from Ben!!!
I'm attempting to break 5. I know it's embarrassing, but I am still grinding 💪. I will use your suggestion.
For me overdistance is a run that requires more time than a marathon (3hrs01) A 33 km trailrun is overdistance for me.
Ah man I was hoping you’d talk about back to back long runs. Great explanation and I can see how to use it. How do you think this would work for someone training for a middle distance run?
For something like 10mi and less, I don't think back to back long runs would be very helpful. There are better things to focus on for those distances...