I ran 3:00:10 seconds this fall and tried 2 more times (prob too much at once) 3:04 and 3:03. I run a 1:26 1/2 18:38 5k. The fact I ran 3:00:10 tells me it’s def doable! Thanks, great video
ran a 38:15 10k and a 1:24:45 half in January, will be trying to go sub 3h in May. This is the best video I've seen so far to show what a sub3 actually means.
@@SuperYtc1 I think the video is pretty straightforward here. Ofc there is exceptions from the rule but usually you won’t be able to run 4:15 per k for 3h when you have a threshold pace worse than 4:00 per k. The gap between your treshold and your marathon pace is just not big enough.
@@RaulViitor1yes! the build up wasn’t perfect but form came around perfectly and I ran 2:58 and could really enjoy it. Did way less mileage than thought I’d need but workout quality was there.
The weekly long run was instrumental in getting me my 1st sub-3. Until then, I was a good 5 and 10ker. My 1/2 M time improved massively during my 1st marathon training block.
That is extremly interesting and concise. Just a small feedback: with that many numbers it would be awesome if they were written in the video for all of us non-native english speakers to follow easier
Is it wildly ambitious to go from a 4:03 to a sub 3 in 11 months?. I just finished my second mara 9 days ago. 41, M, slim build, no real issues apart from poor stretching and tight legs and hips
Try shooting for the shorter distance races first. You'll need to be around 18 min 5k, 39 min 10k to have a chance. Even if you're slim, that doesn't mean you have good running economy or a high vo2max.
that's awesome.. that's a super solid half. What was your progression to the 1:25? training for months/years? I'm 49.. also looking at a run at sub 3 hour.. maybe in a year or so after I turn 50.. I'm not ready yet. I run a half every weekend at usually around 1:43, a pretty comfortable pace, maybe potentially 1:35 at best if I was racing. I run 3 other times a week usually 7-10 miles each usually at a comfortable 7:45'ish pace. I'm gonna start incorporating some of what the Dr here mentioned to start progressing. Just wondering how long progression can take or at least how others have progressed.
Hi Will, this is a terrific video. Thank you. At last someone that speaks in proper, this-is-where-you-need-to-be facts...really refreshing not to mention sobering! I completed a PB of 3:09 at the Gold Coast marathon last month having come from a 3:45 in 2015. I'm 46. The GC went perfectly in terms of prep, then running evenly throughout with a pace group. The holy grail is surely within reach now...and your video tells me specifically what I need to do for next year!! 💪
@@drwilloconnor Will! We met at Asics at the Gold Coast Marathon expo on Friday...and referred to this video. I wanted to come back to it because as I mentioned. This was my default, 'what I need to do' guide to my attack on the sub-3. And I did it: I ran a controlled race, feeling strong throughout, I put in a 1:30:30 first half, then 1:29:10 second, to clock a 2:59:40 overall. I was elated. Thank you so much for this video. It set me out on this journey to achieve something I didn't think possible in my late 40s. How would you like to train me for Tokyo 2025? 🙂
This is a fantastic video and your advice is golden. I started my marathon journey with a 4:33 many years ago. I've recently broken 3:30 and I'm still looking to improve. I'll keep your key workouts in mind and scale them down to my level. The requirements you mentioned make sense and put everything into perspective. I knew that I had to break 49 min in the 10k before I could attempt a sub 4, then I had to break 45 min and 1:40 in the half marathon before I could even attempt a sub 3:30 marathon. Next stop 3:15, probably in a year. First, I have to improve the 10k to about 42 and break 1:32 in the half which I hope to accomplish in 2024 so that I can have another go at the marathon in 2025.
Just wanted to say thanks for the advice in this video. I broke 3 hours at the Manchester marathon yesterday, running a 2:57:27. Did lots of marathon pace running in my long runs, and threshold workouts in the week. For context, I ran. 1:23 half-marathon 8 weeks out from the marathon, and managed. 17:47 5k parkrun two weeks out.
Really great video but I've got perhaps a silly question: For a sub 3 marathon to be realistic, are the 0:39 10K and 1:26 HM guide times something that you should be able to hit before you start your marathon training block, or with just a handful of weeks before the race? My case is that I fell out of running regularly for 2-3 years after the pandemic, and only for the past 7-8 weeks have been training consistently after signing up for my 1st marathon in mid-Oct (13 weeks from now). I ramped up distance and intensity far too quickly, but I've been lucky to avoid injury and my legs feel fresh right now after a couple weeks of soreness. I've been progressing pretty rapidly going from like 21 min parkrun 5K times 8 weeks ago to 18:40ish at my most recent. Ran 39:13 at a 10k race a week ago, and will aim for 1:26 at a HM next weekend. Today I ran 36K at a consistent 4:40-4:50 min/km pace which felt really comfortable right to the end (I need to start incorporating target marathon pace efforts at the end of my long runs; thanks) My initial goal for the marathon was sub 3:30 without blowing up and walking any of it, but with my current rate of progress I'm starting to think how awesome it would be to run sub 3 at my 1st marathon. Am I being stupid? I have a feeling I need to be disabused of this notion to save me from likely heartbreak and injury
@@RunForFunFun Not yet, thanks for asking, I'm running the Amsterdam marathon in mid October. I'm a bit more confident about running it in sub-3 now. I ran a 1:24 HM last weekend in hot/humid weather, no taper and a tricky course. And done a few 36-38KM long runs with marathon pace segments which felt ok. But it still feels like jumping into the unknown. Are you planning to run a marathon?
@@GummiGudna Really well thanks for asking! I got 2:56:57 which I'm delighted with overall. Was on track to sneak in just under 2:55, but I suffered cramp in both hamstrings just as I was gearing up for a sprint finish with 800m to go and I ended up static on a barrier trying to stretch them out, before finishing very gingerly. I need to sort out my fueling strategy as my 3rd gel made me very nauseous so I skipped the 4th, and I also must have knocked my electrolyte tabs out of my pockets before I could take them - probably would have saved me from cramping.
I recently just ran sub 3:00 and you are spot on!! Averaged 52-55 mpw. Concentrated on increasing that LT. Ran 38:18 and 1:22. I knew I had it. 2 x 16, 2 x 18, 2 x 20 and 2 x 22. Mixed in plenty of MP segments. This might be the best How to sub 3:00 video I’ve watched. With that said… it’s not easy. Takes many training blocks
Nice work, James! Stoked you got under 3 hrs. You're right, though. You can watch all the UA-cam videos and read all the books, but it takes a lot of consistent training to get the result.
I ran sub three a few years back and agree totally. For me, the weekly mileage was 100km/week and I needed to get a couple of runs in over 36km on Sunday. I was also racing regularly on a Saturday which kept things fun and not too serious. Marathon training can be mentally and physically draining but feeling that you are improving is a great motivator. Good luck to all
One of the best videos I have seen in a longtime. Chasing Sub-3 myself right now after a 3:06 earlier this year and a 15k PR of 59:50, and this is right in line with what my coach (StazzasStable) so far has said and has had me doing.
Thank you - this was the clearest explanation of the two thresholds that I’ve heard. I’m 51 and training for a half goal of 1:35 and plan to use these workouts and mileage tips too.
I did sub 3.15 = depends on your size. Very hard for me as am 6'4 and 250 muscular. With a 140kg bench press of 10 reps. Marathons are not great if you are too tall or carry too kuch muscle
Hello there Will, I did a 10k yesterday at 39:10 and there was some hills and tons of ppl so I was weaving alot. I am wondering if this is ok for your sub 39 min 10k equation? Been working on this but now I am scared that I need more speed work.
Raced a 38:04 10km in early August. Both last weekend and the weekend before that I ran sub a 1:24 half marathon time trial (z4) with warm up and warm down in training (around 25km total). Today (a week later) I got my first sub3hr marathon at the Sydney marathon. 2h58. I didn't think it'd be possible given my lack of long runs (been recovering from injuries so didn't want to push the long runs). I just thought I'd follow the 3hr pacers for as long as I could and it turns out I was able to hold all the way. Was in high z3 the whole way.
2hr 30k at no more than 90% effort is a much better pre req if you actually want to be confident that you will go sub 3. Thats just my personal experience though
Great video👍 do you have any rough numbers available for a 3:30 marathon? Im sure i dont have enough time to train to get a sub 3 and ran half m of 1:35 last month. Thanks
I ran a 3:29:36 last year. My paces in the 18 week training period leading up to it were those: Aerobic threshold: progressing from 8:20-8:30 m/m (5:12-5:20 min/km) at the beginning to about 8:00 m/m (4:58 min/km) at the end, goal marathon pace achieved Anaerobic threshold: from 7:45-7:50 m/m (4:49-4:52 min/km) to about 7:25-7:30 m/m (4:36-4:39 min/km) I always ran my workouts to current fitness, not my goal fitness, and adjusted them as I progressed through the 18 week programme. I ran a 1:41:30 half marathon (7:45 pace) before I started the training block. If you can run a half in around 1:35 right now, I think you have the capacity to get your sub 3:30. In week 10, I ran a half marathon as a time trial in 1:45:47 and stayed well under my Anaerobic Threshold. That was the confidence building workout that told me that running around 8:00 m/m was now easier than before the training block and I had a good shot at running the entire marathon at that pace 8 weeks later. During the training block, I also raced a 10k under 45 min. It's either that or a half in about 1:37-1:38 that shows me that I have the capacity. For men, it's better to be a bit faster over shorter distances, like a sub 44 10k and a sub 1:35 half because they tend to convert to slower marathon times. So take the paces above and go for 15 seconds faster per mile or 10 seconds faster per km. If you're already capable of running 1:35 in a half, your threshold is probably around 7:10-15 min/mi, 4:27-4:30 min/km. Also, make sure that your easy runs are truly easy (I'm running at around 9:30 m/m or just under 6 min/km) so that you're training your type 1 slow twitch muscle fibres. In the marathon, you want them to be able to burn fat so that a part of your fuelling comes from your fat reserves. A lot of runners tend to run the easy runs too fast so that they are always in the mixed zone which is more reliant on carbs. By focusing on training in Z2, you train your fat burning capabilities. I know that I have the glycogen storage capacity in my muscles and liver for about half of my caloric needs during a marathon and my stomach is able to digest about a quarter in carbs during the race. The remaining quarter of my caloric needs has to come from fat. Runners who haven't trained their fat burning capabilities are at a higher risk of bonking late in the race because they run out of glycogen storage and their stomach cannot keep up with the demands. Digestion slows down with race duration.
First of all, thanks a lot for the video. It really helps me understand what it takes for sub3 marathon. One question: when you say 30mins of workout time for threshold training, does it only count the time in the threshold (so the actual workout time including rest is be longer) ?
Ran a 3.06 last year at London but planned to train for a whole year and go again. Only issue is it is in 7 weeks and I have only started training 2 weeks ago. is it still possible and how would you suggest training for it
This video is hilarious, no advice. he begins with saying you need to run a half marathon at 1:26:00, then he can get you to a sub 3, Brother if someone already running a 1:26 half they don’t need your advice. More help would be how to get someone to that first step
Just ran a 3.09 marathon at the weekend which was a 28 minute pb and ran a 1.28 half in March. So the plan is to stay consistent over the summer as I can be guilty of doing nothing for a few months after a big race then try and push my HM marathon time down in the autumn then work towards a sub 3 spring 25, should have plenty of time to try these tips.
Reasonably experienced runner. BQ'd 3:06 last year and ran 2:59:39 at Boston this year. Have watched many running videos including specific sub 3 videos. This is by far the best. The way you explained what you need to be able to run for a 10k/HM is spot on and extrapolating to the training paces is so easy to understand. I'm also in the 35-45 professional demographic to boot. Wish I'd watch this earlier but it basically reinforces what I discovered accidentally. PS. Am yet to meet a Kiwi I didn't like :)
Is it really just impossible for some people to do this? I mean, for the average healthy person, who is willing to put in the work (no matter if it takes a few years or whatever), can’t anyone run a sub 3?
I’ve thought about this a lot. The short answer is yes, some people will never be able to run sub 3. It’s the same as asking, “Is it impossible for some people to dunk a regulation basketball hoop?”. Yes, because genetics matter. However, based on the fundamental physiology of the human body, most people “should” be capable of running a sub-3hr marathon given that they train around 50miles/wk (80km/wk) consistently for a few years.
Excellent insight into running a sub 3. I’m also aiming toward achieving sub 3 this weekend in Vienna. I’ve no coach and I’ve had no set training plan but I’ve calculated my runs consistently improving each training zones every week. Currently at a 39min 10km, 1 hour 26 min half marathon and a 2 hour 8 min 30km. My marathon pb is 3:12 which I ran solo a few weeks ago. Hoping to hit sub 3 in Vienna now!
This is sobering. I ran my first half at 1:38 and shaved 4 minutes off that time the next year. I am 42 now and have another half scheduled in this fall and was originally shooting for 1:28 but it looks like I should aim for 1:26 with the goal of doing a sub-3 marathon the following year (about 8 months later). With you recent exploration of the Norwegian method would you revise your approach on marathon training?
Hey, awesome video. Like a lot of people, my pie in the sky goal is a sub 3. I had a strange experience in a half marathon over the weekend and your remarks on threshold HR make me question what might have been going on. If you see this and have a second, I would love to hear your thoughts. For some background: my highest ever recorded heartrate on a run is 198, and I have been using that as a basis for my zones. Throughout training over the summer I was running about 70 miles per week, with a 4x1 mile at like 180+ bpm (what I thought was my approximate zone 4) on Tuesdays, then a long run between 14-23 miles at around 170-180 (what I thought was tempo/zone 3) on Fridays. I ran a marathon September 25 and was on pace for 3:20, but blew up and ran 3:36, then on Sunday I ran a half marathon, felt great and finished in 1:36, but my heartrate was at 180+ from the start, so I was just counting the minutes until I blew up again, but never did. I wear a chest strap monitor, so I feel like it is accurate, but I just didn't feel like I was breathing hard or really exerting myself at that level. It was hot and windy, if that matters. Everything I have read about zones indicates that I should not have physically been able to maintain 90%+ of max heartrate for that length of time. Any thoughts on what might be going on?
Hey James, Thanks for your question! Personally, I never use maxHR to set training zones, because I believe it over estimates people's anaerobic threshold. In theory, it works, but in practice, using maxHR ignores your aerobic capacity. In this podcast, I outline how there are two important thresholds to running a successful marathon. It sounds like you have been neglecting your aerobic threhsold because your training zones are set so high (IMO). In regards to your high HR during your half marathon, the humdity would have definitely played a part due to you losing a lot of fluid and needing to increase your HR to match cardiac output (see my maxHR episode). In my Reigntie Your Running course, I outline how you can effectively set your zones, plan your race (HR, pace & power), and review your training. Next intake is late Nov. Keep an eye out!
I ran a sub 3 (2:55) recently doing what you suggested not to do-run too many miles. I got locked into moderate pace on most of my easy runs, a lot of them within 30 seconds of 3 hour marathon pace. I was so exhausted on the weekends that I missed more than half of my long runs. Averaged about 80 miles/week. I tapered for 2 weeks but I did not recover well, was generally exhausted, myopic, had kind of a steady dizzy feeling throughout most days which affected my life negatively. On the bright side I did hit all the marathon tempo workouts. My legs were so conditioned on race day that I was able to hold pace without consuming anything but some water at the aid stations. My legs felt normal after only 2 days after the marathon instead of the usual week or two. Still never technically ran under 40 mins for the 10k although I could do it easily now. Tldr would not recommend doing this 😅
Man, great video 🤌 im a 18:17 5k, 39:04 10k and a 1:26:13 HM runner. All these were prior to my current HM block which im looking to go under 1:26 next weekend. Looking at stepping up to the full next year and go for my first sub 3 attempt. Glad i found yiur channel! Subbed 👊
@@drwilloconnorcurious about the marathon tempo workout.. I normally train for half marathon and do threshold workouts with intervals of 4-10min with a walk or jog recovery. The other workout of the week is normally intervals of reps ranging between 200m-1km. Training for the half the threshold sessions will be targeting around my half marathon effort but am I wasting a workout doing the speed? And would the marathon tempo of 30min+ be more beneficial for fitness and maybe adding on some extra strides only easy runs for "speed". After listening a lot of your stuff my guess is speed isn't my limiting factor as I can do 200m reps comfortably 3:00-3:10/km and faster. Which I'm guessing I need to improve my fitness to extend that speed for longer?
If the 200m reps are specifically for "speed" then I don't think you need them. However, if the 200m reps are added to a session specifically to fatigue you before a hard threshold effort, or to empty the tank after a threshold effort then I think they're fine. Whether you'd be better off with a 20-30min tempo is hard to say.
Eventually a goal of mine. Did a 1:20 half last year but a month or two later had an ankle injury that has sidelined me until pretty recently. Finally starting to get back into regularity and a bit of speed work. Had been running 50+ mile weeks for about 5-10 years though so I’m hoping the base is still there and it won’t take me too long to get back to that fitness!
@@drwilloconnor sorry to hear that man. Nothing is worse than wanting to run but not being physically able to. I just swim more to try and make up for it 😂
I negative split a Mara for my first one by 16 seconds faster 2nd half. Was super happy with pacing. Stayed in high 150s hr for as long as possible then ramped it gradually. Last 5k hr was like 193-198 but hung on. I am using the hr ramp I did for the next Mara but hoping I’ll be moving faster at those hr zones. Understanding your hr helps so much for Mara pacing IMO
Wow, 16 seconds! That's 👌. It takes guts to follow HR over pace in a race scenario. Often, you end up running slightly slower than you think you "should", which is mentally challenging to handle.
Great video - very specific. Im trying to run my first sub 3 since Covid. 5 years ago I managed a 2.41 marathon but I am now 55 and haven't been training at that intensity for years. Your disregard for milage per week gives me some confidence, although I think I will still peak at over 60 miles.
Hello, thx for the video, very good content. One question. These 39min for 10km or 1h26min for half marathon. This is supposed to be a measure of whether you are able to run a sub 3 hour marathon. But I didn't see anywhere when it was supposed to be able to drain!? I currently run 10 km in 40 minutes and a half marathon in 1:28 hours. I want to run a sub 3h marathon in 7 months.
Hey, sorry, not sure I understand the question. If you're asking about when you should be achieving those times, I would want you to be capable of hitting those times between 3 - 9 months out of your marathon. You're within the ballpark, but it's a big ask to go from 1:28 as your best effort to doing two of those in a row.
@@drwilloconnor, Hay..Now, I didn't really understand the last part of your answer :D It doesn't matter. Anyway, I'm currently capable of running a 1:28 half marathon. My PR is 1:24, which I will try to achieve again in two months. I have a marathon race at the end of October. I'll try sub 3 hours, but I won't be sad if I don't make it. I will try again in the spring of 2025 ;)
Just coming back to this after running a 3:08:22 at CIM in December of 2023. I finished with some in the tank. Pretty much even split with the second half being 0:45 slower. I'm 60 years young and never thought I could break 3:15 let alone 3:10. My 10k PB is only 31:40 and half 1:30:20. I have thought about attempting sub 3 for some time now and I think it may just be out of range for me. Marathon blocks have only been 50mpw with a single WO day. I wonder if I slowly made my way up to 70mpw and/or added another WO day if I would break (get injured) or make enough gains to get close. I do have a coach guiding me through all this and he always asks for input from my side. No matter, it would have to be the perfect day and I would have to execute the perfect race. Thanks for the info and giving me more to think about. PS I'll be running the Sydney 26.2 in 2024 after an invite from World Majors Marathon Age Group Championships for my sub 3:10 race. I'm soooo excited!!!!
Hey Jim, excellent work on the 3:08. I'm not sure lifting your weekly mileage is the answer. Often, it's pure consistency and year-on-year improvements that can make a big difference. All the best in Sydney!
@@drwilloconnor Thanks for the response and I appreciate the well wishes. I have had almost 5 years now of very, very consistent running, as in last year, I did not miss a single scheduled run or WO. I honestly just may be too slow in the end but I'm sure I will give it a few big swings before I just start coasting to 3:20's. LOL All the best!
Love the explanation bro . U reinstated some theory for me and teach some more as well .. Question .. how can u increase your marathon pace overtime as the training progresses the same way as u say without really going into zone 3 or just in zone 3
Yep. If you improve your aerobic base by running a block in Zone 1-2, your pace in Zones 1 - 4 will improve too. Zones 5+ will probably still require a bit of speed work.
Great video! I ran a sub40 10k (37ish) on the indoor pavement (short track) last week because of icy outdoor conditions. Is it realistic to target a sub330 (BQ qualifier) in 85 days of training leading to a Vancouver marathon this May 5th? Note: 50-70mi/week for the past 3 years consistently, 120lbs, 34yr female, full-time flexible work hours
Awesome video, i learned a lot. I didnt run for 6 years (finished a half marathon in 1:30h back then) and started all over with ~2 runs/week in April this year. I'm going to run a half marathon in October and plan on training for a full marathon next year.
I’ve been listening to running podcasts and watching running videos for years, but I’ve never seen/heard such great info on what must be a super popular topic for advanced runners. Everyone out there is trying to be super general and broad to appeal to a wider audience, so this was fantastic to see. I’ll be going for a sub-3hr marathon in a few months and it’s great to get some really specific info and to know I’m on the right track.
Very in-depth video...well done! I agree with the sub 40min 10km as no guarantee on its own...so true. When you discuss the 2 wrkouts a wk the 10k tempo @ goal m.p and the Threshold Intervals (5-15min) if these are done say 60hrs apart would be good for Adaptation time hey. A tues am with a thurs pm perhaps. Then the sun am longrun. Im curious whether you're suggesting m.p finish Each wkly longrun or juggling each frtnight progressive/fast linish longrun? As thats bordering on 3 wrkouts in a way hey. Cheers great content videos!
That gives me a good idea for a video - how to plan your training week. Alternating weekly long runs, hard - easy, is a good idea. I've found that to be better for consistency compared to building every week. At least in the early weeks of marathon training. You would want at least 48hrs separation in the workouts. In saying that, I did a block of training where I did my long run on Wednesday, and then did a double quality day on Saturday. I did threshold AM and Tempo PM. It was super effective. I was getting around 40km of high-quality training within one day. Friday was chill and Sunday was a day off. More time for the family!
@@drwilloconnor that certainly is a very family friendly plan you were doing. Smart doing the double session on the same day as the body has only had 10hrs or so to start the recovery process. Utilising a Parkrun could also be very clever for a 3 x 6min @lt2 threshold pace with a 2min float plus another 2 Intervals after the finish line then run back after for a social coffee haha.
Enjoyed the video. I ran a 2:57 marathon at age 56 and basically beat it into submission by volume. Often doing 160km per week almost all at a comfortable pace. I found by doing parkruns each Saturday that these were usually under 19 minutes in the weeks leading up to the race and I did a 10k in about 38:30. Right where you indicated you need to be, but from a lot of slow aerobic running. I found a lot of guys would take the high intensity path and can beat me easily over 5k aiming for sub:3 but not do the volume ended up being the guys that said “I was going really well until 29km then the wheels fell off”. Hoping to give sub:3 another scare in a few weeks now that I am in my 60’s.
160km/wk wow! No doubt your approach works. But very few guys can handle that kind of mileage consistently, even at an easy pace. You're obviously a special breed to be smashing out those Kms at 60 🤯
Most definitely. I'll do a separate video on that topic because there are a few things to consider. HR threshold will mostly stay the same since it's an internal reference metric compared to external like pace.
@drwilloconnor I look forward to the video, I'm currently living in key west florida so it's where I do a lot of my training. My threshold pace is around 6:40 and my goal is a sub 3 marathon, it's just very hot and humid here so I wasn't sure how much it could be slowing me down
Not that surprising. According to run repeat stats, it’s within the top 2% of finish times. A year or two assuming no previous cardiovascular training sounds like the bare minimum.
First time viewer here, really informative video. I ran my first marathon in spring this year, hit 36’ 10k, 80’ HM and 2:09 20m in the build up, on race day went through halfway in 1:26 dead (target was 2:52), ended up running 3:04! I felt really in control up to that 19 miles and from that point the drop off was steep, with a walk/run combo for last 5-6 miles. Everyone I have spoken with suggest increasing mileage, i averaged 58k per week over 20 weeks. This included 2 weeks of not running due to injury/illness.
That is a lower mileage than I would usually recommend. Typical is 60 - 80km (50 miles). A couple of changes I would trial would be the length and intensity of your long run and a negative split pacing strategy. So, going through half at 1:31-1:32 to conserve the speed you clearly have for where you're the weakest, the backend.
He Will! Great video, loved the thorough explanation of the LT en MP training blocks. I ran a 3.17 marathon in Tokyo last march, while being very underprepared (just 6 weeks of training after injury). My goal is to run sub 3 at Valencia this year (first of december). I've build my weekly milage up to 60km, with a longrun, temporun and some interval sessions to get more speedy. Do you think it is possible for my to reach my sub 3 hour goal?
Loving your explanations, Will, and adopting many of your principles into a sub-3 attempt. A question about HR, however… training in the Australian summer for a much cooler autumn race, it’s impossible to hit the appropriate paces without exceeding HR zones. Typically in autumn I see the HR fall into the right zone, but where should the hot weather training be focussed? Pace or HR? Thanks!
Hi dr will Thanks for the details of running marathon sub3 . Would like to go deeper about your workouts mentioned . In my case , my 10k PB is 41mins , my 30mins TT test found out that my threshold Heart rate is around 180. My target is to run marathon sub315 at this moment . According to your workouts . I should run 1. Tempo run 10k or even more at zone 3 (which is 159-171) 2. Marathon intervals in total 30mins at zone 4-5 ( which is 174-184) What I wanna ask is , should I only focus on the heart rate in these 2 workouts ? As I should run 4:37/km if I want to do sub315 but at this pace my heart rate would go higher then 170🥲.
Ah yes, that's why it's best to let your workouts dicate your finish time. Don't let your finish time dictate your workouts. Keep an eye for my new video on that topic. Coming soon.
For someone who wants to do a 7:20 min/mile pace for marathon and is who is able to do a 20 mile run at 7:20 min/ mile, does it mean they should be able to run 7:20 pace as their goal marathon pace?
Really great video! I'm 49 and ran my first marathon at Manchester last Sunday in just under 3:06. I didn't really follow a plan, just increased my milage up to around 60k a week at peak. Later this year I've got NYC which I think it will just go with the flow, enjoy the day and use it as my long run ahead of Valencia a month later which I hope to achieve sub 3. Might follow the Hanson marathon method...
Great video! One thing I was wondering was how this aligns with the 80/20 rule you have mentioned in other video's. If you do 30 minutes of threshold running and 1-2 hours of marathon tempo each week, that would mean you need to do 6-10 hours of zone 2 running to follow the 80/20 rule. Even at 6 hours, your weekly time running would be 7.5 hours, which would equate to a weekly mileage well above the 60km you mention. Is it best to spread the two key workouts over multiple weeks so that you can follow the 80/20 rule, or should you stick to the 2 workouts on a weekly basis and accept the fact that the easy hard split would be something closer to 60/40?
Absolutely, you're spot on. For marathon training with less than 6 hours per week, you'll indeed need to up the intensity beyond 20%. Marathon-specific workouts might take up 30-40% of your weekly volume, adapting the 80/20 rule to fit your training needs. However, this shift in intensity (above 20%) applies mainly to the final 4-week intensive block of your marathon training. During this phase, adjust your other training to be less intense, ensuring a balanced approach. In the final phase, you might not do 30min of threshold running and instead do HIIT, which is far lower volume.
The marker time for a sub 3 are they before you begin training block or during trainings for example could i start a 16 week training block for sub with a 41 min 10k
Amazing video, this is exactly what I needed. One question though: the sub 39' 10km and sub 1:26'km times you mention that runners should be able to do in order to run sub 3, is that at the beginning of your sub 3 hour marathon training or at the end? Because I can for sure run these numbers but my marathon is in one month haha
I have ran a 38: 56 10 k and a 1:22:54 HM 6 Months ago but I’m struggling to run a sub 3:00 marathon. My phone was 3:04:11(unofficial) or 3:05:13(official race time). During my last 2 marathons I’ve had to stop and slow down around 31/33 km because of calf muscle cramps. I’m trying to deal with this with incorporating more strength training and hope that I can achieve my goal next November (unlikely) or next April (more likely).
Good dose of reality. I'm close (1:26 1/2 pr last year but a net downhill course) but I don't think I quite have a 39 10k. I'm close enough that if I was younger I think it would be within training, but at 57 I think my days of overall PRs are limited.
@@drwilloconnor I did crank out a 39:45 10K on a dirt track tonight. My dilemma now is- since I have a time I'm happy with (sub 3:12 last year), do I go for broke and start with the 3h pace group, with a very high probability that I'll blow up, or do the 'smart' conservative thing and start with 3:05 or 3:10 and aim to PR. I've seen a lot of people 'fail' using a pace group because they think it will drag them to a time they're not really capable of. I've always used pace groups to hold myself back in the first 15-20 miles. It's really a matter of which option (and result) will leave me with the least regret.
You'll never be disappointed with a strong finish and a PR. I'd go for the 3:05 group, which would give you a foot in both camps. If it's a bit much, you should only slow a little rather than completely blowing out like a sub 3hr attempt. If it works out, you could have a massive PR to be proud of.
@@drwilloconnor post mortem: I planned to go with the 3Hr pace group and give myself 5k to establish an effort/HR and promised myself I'd back off it if wasn't working. Of course in the moment promises are hard to keep :-) My intended range was 128-130 (my LT is about 138). This was CIM, so rolling hills for the first half, and while it would inch into the 134-136 going up, I could usually recover it on the way down. But I knew it was adding up. .By 10k I knew although I was feeling good, it wasn't sustainable. But I held on just to see how far I could go. By the 1/2 I had to face reality and back off and bring my HR back into Marathon zone. From then on I didn't look at my pace at all and just went by effort, occasionally checking my HR. My quads started to tighten at about 25km. In retrospect I wasn't keeping up with my hydration/electrolytes. Not bad, but not to my plan and not enough. I think that was a small contribution though. I did manage to mostly hold it together for a PR of 3:05:14, which I am happy with. I had been saying although I wanted to shoot for 3, I thought 3:05-3:10 was realistic. I probably could have shaved a minute or 2 if I had started with the 3:05, but this way I also don't wonder what-if. Not sure about next year- I'm still thinking an 80% age grade might be a better "attainable but certainly not guarantied" goal.
I just ran 2:58:41 on my first marathon. Max I ran a week was 45 miles. Neglected speed work. Drank beer 5 times a week. Didn't ever stretch... Moral of the story is just go out and live your life and run. 😊 cheers 🍻
I ran 2:28 first up utilising a run focussed triathlon program Have done 52 of them all under 3hrs. One was when ran 28km to start line and then did marathon
Great video. Im in process of training for a 2hrs 50mins marsthon. First time having a crack at sub 3hr. I did a 5k time trial about 6 weeks ago. Avg pace was 3:35 pkm. Im 4 weeks out from the race. Ive just gone through a week of alot of self doubt about being able to break sub 3hr. Ive been doing min 80km a week and ever 4wks a recovery week. My easy runs sit around 4:36ish pkm. With thesw sort of numbers, do you think my self doubt this week has some merit ? Thanks for the vid
I forgot to add. My longs runs are cut off at 32km. I'll finish last 20mins at marsthon pace or quicker which avgs out at about 3:40ish. My avg HR for these workouts usually sit about 152-56ish
You've got all the numbers to suggest #sub3, but your self-doubt could undo you on race day. I've seen too many dudes try to “bank time” early in the marathon because they don't back themselves to finish strong. In the end, they blow up because they use up their carbohydrates too early. I suggest starting out at 4:15-4:20 for the first hour, knowing you can EASILY ramp up the oace from there. That'll ensure you’re setting yourself up for success in the backend.
@drwilloconnor thank you. I'll be testing those paces out this weekend for my long run. And see how it feels. Hopefully nailing the long run on weekend will boost my confidence. Just finished the active recovery week, and I think that's what I needed. Thanks for the advice
I ran 3:00:10 seconds this fall and tried 2 more times (prob too much at once) 3:04 and 3:03. I run a 1:26 1/2 18:38 5k. The fact I ran 3:00:10 tells me it’s def doable! Thanks, great video
ran a 38:15 10k and a 1:24:45 half in January, will be trying to go sub 3h in May. This is the best video I've seen so far to show what a sub3 actually means.
Do you think that thinking about running a sub 3 hour marathon is pointless before running a sub 40 minute 10k?
@@SuperYtc1 I think the video is pretty straightforward here. Ofc there is exceptions from the rule but usually you won’t be able to run 4:15 per k for 3h when you have a threshold pace worse than 4:00 per k. The gap between your treshold and your marathon pace is just not big enough.
@baumhauspflege3466 Have you got it?
@@RaulViitor1yes! the build up wasn’t perfect but form came around perfectly and I ran 2:58 and could really enjoy it. Did way less mileage than thought I’d need but workout quality was there.
@@baumhauspflege3466 Great stuff, well done. What sort of mileage did you hit in your marathon block?
The weekly long run was instrumental in getting me my 1st sub-3. Until then, I was a good 5 and 10ker. My 1/2 M time improved massively during my 1st marathon training block.
That is extremly interesting and concise. Just a small feedback: with that many numbers it would be awesome if they were written in the video for all of us non-native english speakers to follow easier
I'm doing that on my new videos. I didn't have the time last year. Thanks for the feedback, though.
Is it wildly ambitious to go from a 4:03 to a sub 3 in 11 months?. I just finished my second mara 9 days ago.
41, M, slim build, no real issues apart from poor stretching and tight legs and hips
Try shooting for the shorter distance races first. You'll need to be around 18 min 5k, 39 min 10k to have a chance. Even if you're slim, that doesn't mean you have good running economy or a high vo2max.
Great explanation 👌
I’m 52 and the sub 3hr is one of my goals . Managed a 1:25 half ,this year . Will certainly look into some of your suggestions 👏
that's awesome.. that's a super solid half. What was your progression to the 1:25? training for months/years? I'm 49.. also looking at a run at sub 3 hour.. maybe in a year or so after I turn 50.. I'm not ready yet. I run a half every weekend at usually around 1:43, a pretty comfortable pace, maybe potentially 1:35 at best if I was racing. I run 3 other times a week usually 7-10 miles each usually at a comfortable 7:45'ish pace. I'm gonna start incorporating some of what the Dr here mentioned to start progressing. Just wondering how long progression can take or at least how others have progressed.
Hi Will, this is a terrific video. Thank you. At last someone that speaks in proper, this-is-where-you-need-to-be facts...really refreshing not to mention sobering! I completed a PB of 3:09 at the Gold Coast marathon last month having come from a 3:45 in 2015. I'm 46. The GC went perfectly in terms of prep, then running evenly throughout with a pace group. The holy grail is surely within reach now...and your video tells me specifically what I need to do for next year!! 💪
Big improvement! Keep those long runs up over a summer, and you’ll make good progress.
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@@drwilloconnor Will! We met at Asics at the Gold Coast Marathon expo on Friday...and referred to this video. I wanted to come back to it because as I mentioned. This was my default, 'what I need to do' guide to my attack on the sub-3. And I did it: I ran a controlled race, feeling strong throughout, I put in a 1:30:30 first half, then 1:29:10 second, to clock a 2:59:40 overall. I was elated.
Thank you so much for this video. It set me out on this journey to achieve something I didn't think possible in my late 40s.
How would you like to train me for Tokyo 2025? 🙂
This is a fantastic video and your advice is golden. I started my marathon journey with a 4:33 many years ago. I've recently broken 3:30 and I'm still looking to improve. I'll keep your key workouts in mind and scale them down to my level. The requirements you mentioned make sense and put everything into perspective. I knew that I had to break 49 min in the 10k before I could attempt a sub 4, then I had to break 45 min and 1:40 in the half marathon before I could even attempt a sub 3:30 marathon. Next stop 3:15, probably in a year. First, I have to improve the 10k to about 42 and break 1:32 in the half which I hope to accomplish in 2024 so that I can have another go at the marathon in 2025.
Just wanted to say thanks for the advice in this video. I broke 3 hours at the Manchester marathon yesterday, running a 2:57:27.
Did lots of marathon pace running in my long runs, and threshold workouts in the week. For context, I ran. 1:23 half-marathon 8 weeks out from the marathon, and managed. 17:47 5k parkrun two weeks out.
Hey, thanks for sharing. That's awesome! You got well under too.👏👏
Really great video but I've got perhaps a silly question:
For a sub 3 marathon to be realistic, are the 0:39 10K and 1:26 HM guide times something that you should be able to hit before you start your marathon training block, or with just a handful of weeks before the race?
My case is that I fell out of running regularly for 2-3 years after the pandemic, and only for the past 7-8 weeks have been training consistently after signing up for my 1st marathon in mid-Oct (13 weeks from now). I ramped up distance and intensity far too quickly, but I've been lucky to avoid injury and my legs feel fresh right now after a couple weeks of soreness. I've been progressing pretty rapidly going from like 21 min parkrun 5K times 8 weeks ago to 18:40ish at my most recent. Ran 39:13 at a 10k race a week ago, and will aim for 1:26 at a HM next weekend. Today I ran 36K at a consistent 4:40-4:50 min/km pace which felt really comfortable right to the end (I need to start incorporating target marathon pace efforts at the end of my long runs; thanks)
My initial goal for the marathon was sub 3:30 without blowing up and walking any of it, but with my current rate of progress I'm starting to think how awesome it would be to run sub 3 at my 1st marathon. Am I being stupid? I have a feeling I need to be disabused of this notion to save me from likely heartbreak and injury
Did you finishi running your marathon? how did it go?
@@RunForFunFun Not yet, thanks for asking, I'm running the Amsterdam marathon in mid October.
I'm a bit more confident about running it in sub-3 now. I ran a 1:24 HM last weekend in hot/humid weather, no taper and a tricky course. And done a few 36-38KM long runs with marathon pace segments which felt ok. But it still feels like jumping into the unknown.
Are you planning to run a marathon?
Howd the run go mate?
@@GummiGudna Really well thanks for asking! I got 2:56:57 which I'm delighted with overall. Was on track to sneak in just under 2:55, but I suffered cramp in both hamstrings just as I was gearing up for a sprint finish with 800m to go and I ended up static on a barrier trying to stretch them out, before finishing very gingerly.
I need to sort out my fueling strategy as my 3rd gel made me very nauseous so I skipped the 4th, and I also must have knocked my electrolyte tabs out of my pockets before I could take them - probably would have saved me from cramping.
@@SuperFuzzyDunlop inspiring stuff!! Congrats mate! Just finished a 3:23:16 myself, got some work ahead of me to reach you. Keep it up!
Here after ballot results of London Marathon. Thank you for the amazing video. 🙌
I recently just ran sub 3:00 and you are spot on!! Averaged 52-55 mpw. Concentrated on increasing that LT. Ran 38:18 and 1:22. I knew I had it. 2 x 16, 2 x 18, 2 x 20 and 2 x 22. Mixed in plenty of MP segments. This might be the best How to sub 3:00 video I’ve watched. With that said… it’s not easy. Takes many training blocks
Nice work, James! Stoked you got under 3 hrs. You're right, though. You can watch all the UA-cam videos and read all the books, but it takes a lot of consistent training to get the result.
I ran sub three a few years back and agree totally. For me, the weekly mileage was 100km/week and I needed to get a couple of runs in over 36km on Sunday. I was also racing regularly on a Saturday which kept things fun and not too serious. Marathon training can be mentally and physically draining but feeling that you are improving is a great motivator. Good luck to all
Great insights. I also enjoy racing as a fun way to get quality training.
One of the best videos I have seen in a longtime. Chasing Sub-3 myself right now after a 3:06 earlier this year and a 15k PR of 59:50, and this is right in line with what my coach (StazzasStable) so far has said and has had me doing.
Nice work. With a good training block and a solid pacing strategy, you should get there 🏃💨
So your advice is to be a faster runner, thanks
Worked for me! 2:54:59. Amazing to have such a simple training plan that works. 2 core workouts, everything else simple.
Thank you - this was the clearest explanation of the two thresholds that I’ve heard. I’m 51 and training for a half goal of 1:35 and plan to use these workouts and mileage tips too.
Hey, that's an impressive time for a young fella! Good luck 👍
I did sub 3.15 = depends on your size. Very hard for me as am 6'4 and 250 muscular. With a 140kg bench press of 10 reps. Marathons are not great if you are too tall or carry too kuch muscle
Hello there Will,
I did a 10k yesterday at 39:10 and there was some hills and tons of ppl so I was weaving alot. I am wondering if this is ok for your sub 39 min 10k equation? Been working on this but now I am scared that I need more speed work.
Raced a 38:04 10km in early August. Both last weekend and the weekend before that I ran sub a 1:24 half marathon time trial (z4) with warm up and warm down in training (around 25km total). Today (a week later) I got my first sub3hr marathon at the Sydney marathon. 2h58. I didn't think it'd be possible given my lack of long runs (been recovering from injuries so didn't want to push the long runs). I just thought I'd follow the 3hr pacers for as long as I could and it turns out I was able to hold all the way. Was in high z3 the whole way.
2hr 30k at no more than 90% effort is a much better pre req if you actually want to be confident that you will go sub 3. Thats just my personal experience though
Great video👍 do you have any rough numbers available for a 3:30 marathon? Im sure i dont have enough time to train to get a sub 3 and ran half m of 1:35 last month.
Thanks
I ran a 3:29:36 last year. My paces in the 18 week training period leading up to it were those:
Aerobic threshold: progressing from 8:20-8:30 m/m (5:12-5:20 min/km) at the beginning to about 8:00 m/m (4:58 min/km) at the end, goal marathon pace achieved
Anaerobic threshold: from 7:45-7:50 m/m (4:49-4:52 min/km) to about 7:25-7:30 m/m (4:36-4:39 min/km)
I always ran my workouts to current fitness, not my goal fitness, and adjusted them as I progressed through the 18 week programme.
I ran a 1:41:30 half marathon (7:45 pace) before I started the training block. If you can run a half in around 1:35 right now, I think you have the capacity to get your sub 3:30.
In week 10, I ran a half marathon as a time trial in 1:45:47 and stayed well under my Anaerobic Threshold. That was the confidence building workout that told me that running around 8:00 m/m was now easier than before the training block and I had a good shot at running the entire marathon at that pace 8 weeks later. During the training block, I also raced a 10k under 45 min. It's either that or a half in about 1:37-1:38 that shows me that I have the capacity.
For men, it's better to be a bit faster over shorter distances, like a sub 44 10k and a sub 1:35 half because they tend to convert to slower marathon times. So take the paces above and go for 15 seconds faster per mile or 10 seconds faster per km. If you're already capable of running 1:35 in a half, your threshold is probably around 7:10-15 min/mi, 4:27-4:30 min/km.
Also, make sure that your easy runs are truly easy (I'm running at around 9:30 m/m or just under 6 min/km) so that you're training your type 1 slow twitch muscle fibres. In the marathon, you want them to be able to burn fat so that a part of your fuelling comes from your fat reserves. A lot of runners tend to run the easy runs too fast so that they are always in the mixed zone which is more reliant on carbs. By focusing on training in Z2, you train your fat burning capabilities. I know that I have the glycogen storage capacity in my muscles and liver for about half of my caloric needs during a marathon and my stomach is able to digest about a quarter in carbs during the race. The remaining quarter of my caloric needs has to come from fat. Runners who haven't trained their fat burning capabilities are at a higher risk of bonking late in the race because they run out of glycogen storage and their stomach cannot keep up with the demands. Digestion slows down with race duration.
First of all, thanks a lot for the video. It really helps me understand what it takes for sub3 marathon.
One question: when you say 30mins of workout time for threshold training, does it only count the time in the threshold (so the actual workout time including rest is be longer) ?
Lol I'm 6'2 240 lbs fit. I ll never see these numbers. My current 1 min intervals are at 4 min 😂😂😂 thx for the reality check doc.
Work in progress 🔧 🔩 😉
Ran a 3.06 last year at London but planned to train for a whole year and go again. Only issue is it is in 7 weeks and I have only started training 2 weeks ago. is it still possible and how would you suggest training for it
Bro I won't give you advice here but I am wishing you all the best during your preparation and especially when the race day will come!
This is fantastic. Such a clear and concise breakdown, and exactly what I needed. Thanks Will, subscribed.
Thanks. 🙏 appreciate the feedback.
This video is hilarious, no advice. he begins with saying you need to run a half marathon at 1:26:00, then he can get you to a sub 3, Brother if someone already running a 1:26 half they don’t need your advice. More help would be how to get someone to that first step
Just ran a 3.09 marathon at the weekend which was a 28 minute pb and ran a 1.28 half in March. So the plan is to stay consistent over the summer as I can be guilty of doing nothing for a few months after a big race then try and push my HM marathon time down in the autumn then work towards a sub 3 spring 25, should have plenty of time to try these tips.
Reasonably experienced runner. BQ'd 3:06 last year and ran 2:59:39 at Boston this year. Have watched many running videos including specific sub 3 videos. This is by far the best. The way you explained what you need to be able to run for a 10k/HM is spot on and extrapolating to the training paces is so easy to understand. I'm also in the 35-45 professional demographic to boot. Wish I'd watch this earlier but it basically reinforces what I discovered accidentally. PS. Am yet to meet a Kiwi I didn't like :)
Sub 3 🙌. Congratulations 🎉. I just had a client go 3:00:12, so it can easily go either way. Glad I'm not the Kiwi to ruin your streak.
Late to the party but great video! There were a few 'ah-ha' moments in there - thanks for sharing your knowledge!
Thanks, mate. All the best with sub3 🏃💨
I could not figure out what is the test to figure out your running economy … can you comment on that?
Threshold Intervals For 10-15 Minutes At 90-95% Then Marathon Pace Tempo Runs 10k
Is it really just impossible for some people to do this? I mean, for the average healthy person, who is willing to put in the work (no matter if it takes a few years or whatever), can’t anyone run a sub 3?
I’ve thought about this a lot. The short answer is yes, some people will never be able to run sub 3. It’s the same as asking, “Is it impossible for some people to dunk a regulation basketball hoop?”. Yes, because genetics matter. However, based on the fundamental physiology of the human body, most people “should” be capable of running a sub-3hr marathon given that they train around 50miles/wk (80km/wk) consistently for a few years.
Only way I will be hitting a sub 3 right now is if I’m sleeping and dream about it. My goal is to go sub 4 in the Spring.
Excellent insight into running a sub 3. I’m also aiming toward achieving sub 3 this weekend in Vienna. I’ve no coach and I’ve had no set training plan but I’ve calculated my runs consistently improving each training zones every week. Currently at a 39min 10km, 1 hour 26 min half marathon and a 2 hour 8 min 30km. My marathon pb is 3:12 which I ran solo a few weeks ago. Hoping to hit sub 3 in Vienna now!
Best of luck! Looks like it could be cold and wet.
@@drwilloconnor just missed out on the sub 3. Achieved a 3:03:42 which is great! I will go again and 100% get it next time.
This is sobering. I ran my first half at 1:38 and shaved 4 minutes off that time the next year. I am 42 now and have another half scheduled in this fall and was originally shooting for 1:28 but it looks like I should aim for 1:26 with the goal of doing a sub-3 marathon the following year (about 8 months later). With you recent exploration of the Norwegian method would you revise your approach on marathon training?
Hey, awesome video. Like a lot of people, my pie in the sky goal is a sub 3. I had a strange experience in a half marathon over the weekend and your remarks on threshold HR make me question what might have been going on. If you see this and have a second, I would love to hear your thoughts.
For some background: my highest ever recorded heartrate on a run is 198, and I have been using that as a basis for my zones.
Throughout training over the summer I was running about 70 miles per week, with a 4x1 mile at like 180+ bpm (what I thought was my approximate zone 4) on Tuesdays, then a long run between 14-23 miles at around 170-180 (what I thought was tempo/zone 3) on Fridays.
I ran a marathon September 25 and was on pace for 3:20, but blew up and ran 3:36, then on Sunday I ran a half marathon, felt great and finished in 1:36, but my heartrate was at 180+ from the start, so I was just counting the minutes until I blew up again, but never did. I wear a chest strap monitor, so I feel like it is accurate, but I just didn't feel like I was breathing hard or really exerting myself at that level. It was hot and windy, if that matters.
Everything I have read about zones indicates that I should not have physically been able to maintain 90%+ of max heartrate for that length of time. Any thoughts on what might be going on?
Hey James, Thanks for your question! Personally, I never use maxHR to set training zones, because I believe it over estimates people's anaerobic threshold. In theory, it works, but in practice, using maxHR ignores your aerobic capacity. In this podcast, I outline how there are two important thresholds to running a successful marathon. It sounds like you have been neglecting your aerobic threhsold because your training zones are set so high (IMO).
In regards to your high HR during your half marathon, the humdity would have definitely played a part due to you losing a lot of fluid and needing to increase your HR to match cardiac output (see my maxHR episode).
In my Reigntie Your Running course, I outline how you can effectively set your zones, plan your race (HR, pace & power), and review your training. Next intake is late Nov. Keep an eye out!
I ran a sub 3 (2:55) recently doing what you suggested not to do-run too many miles. I got locked into moderate pace on most of my easy runs, a lot of them within 30 seconds of 3 hour marathon pace. I was so exhausted on the weekends that I missed more than half of my long runs. Averaged about 80 miles/week. I tapered for 2 weeks but I did not recover well, was generally exhausted, myopic, had kind of a steady dizzy feeling throughout most days which affected my life negatively.
On the bright side I did hit all the marathon tempo workouts. My legs were so conditioned on race day that I was able to hold pace without consuming anything but some water at the aid stations. My legs felt normal after only 2 days after the marathon instead of the usual week or two. Still never technically ran under 40 mins for the 10k although I could do it easily now.
Tldr would not recommend doing this 😅
No harm in trying 🤷♂️
Man, great video 🤌 im a 18:17 5k, 39:04 10k and a 1:26:13 HM runner. All these were prior to my current HM block which im looking to go under 1:26 next weekend. Looking at stepping up to the full next year and go for my first sub 3 attempt. Glad i found yiur channel! Subbed 👊
You've got the goods for a sub 3. All the best with the 1:26. See you on the next video 🫡
@@drwilloconnorcurious about the marathon tempo workout.. I normally train for half marathon and do threshold workouts with intervals of 4-10min with a walk or jog recovery. The other workout of the week is normally intervals of reps ranging between 200m-1km.
Training for the half the threshold sessions will be targeting around my half marathon effort but am I wasting a workout doing the speed? And would the marathon tempo of 30min+ be more beneficial for fitness and maybe adding on some extra strides only easy runs for "speed". After listening a lot of your stuff my guess is speed isn't my limiting factor as I can do 200m reps comfortably 3:00-3:10/km and faster. Which I'm guessing I need to improve my fitness to extend that speed for longer?
If the 200m reps are specifically for "speed" then I don't think you need them. However, if the 200m reps are added to a session specifically to fatigue you before a hard threshold effort, or to empty the tank after a threshold effort then I think they're fine. Whether you'd be better off with a 20-30min tempo is hard to say.
Hey man curious - did you achieve it?
Eventually a goal of mine. Did a 1:20 half last year but a month or two later had an ankle injury that has sidelined me until pretty recently. Finally starting to get back into regularity and a bit of speed work. Had been running 50+ mile weeks for about 5-10 years though so I’m hoping the base is still there and it won’t take me too long to get back to that fitness!
All the best with the return to training. I hope you can back to some consistent miles. I've got an injury at the moment, which is super frustrating.
@@drwilloconnor sorry to hear that man. Nothing is worse than wanting to run but not being physically able to. I just swim more to try and make up for it 😂
I negative split a Mara for my first one by 16 seconds faster 2nd half. Was super happy with pacing. Stayed in high 150s hr for as long as possible then ramped it gradually. Last 5k hr was like 193-198 but hung on. I am using the hr ramp I did for the next Mara but hoping I’ll be moving faster at those hr zones. Understanding your hr helps so much for Mara pacing IMO
Wow, 16 seconds! That's 👌. It takes guts to follow HR over pace in a race scenario. Often, you end up running slightly slower than you think you "should", which is mentally challenging to handle.
Great video - very specific. Im trying to run my first sub 3 since Covid. 5 years ago I managed a 2.41 marathon but I am now 55 and haven't been training at that intensity for years. Your disregard for milage per week gives me some confidence, although I think I will still peak at over 60 miles.
All the best! From what I've seen over the years, 50 miles/wk is a typical sweet spot for a lot for runners attempting sub 3.
Hello, thx for the video, very good content.
One question. These 39min for 10km or 1h26min for half marathon. This is supposed to be a measure of whether you are able to run a sub 3 hour marathon. But I didn't see anywhere when it was supposed to be able to drain!? I currently run 10 km in 40 minutes and a half marathon in 1:28 hours. I want to run a sub 3h marathon in 7 months.
Hey, sorry, not sure I understand the question. If you're asking about when you should be achieving those times, I would want you to be capable of hitting those times between 3 - 9 months out of your marathon. You're within the ballpark, but it's a big ask to go from 1:28 as your best effort to doing two of those in a row.
@@drwilloconnor, Hay..Now, I didn't really understand the last part of your answer :D It doesn't matter. Anyway, I'm currently capable of running a 1:28 half marathon. My PR is 1:24, which I will try to achieve again in two months. I have a marathon race at the end of October. I'll try sub 3 hours, but I won't be sad if I don't make it. I will try again in the spring of 2025 ;)
amazing video! thanks!
Glad you liked it!
Just coming back to this after running a 3:08:22 at CIM in December of 2023. I finished with some in the tank. Pretty much even split with the second half being 0:45 slower. I'm 60 years young and never thought I could break 3:15 let alone 3:10. My 10k PB is only 31:40 and half 1:30:20. I have thought about attempting sub 3 for some time now and I think it may just be out of range for me. Marathon blocks have only been 50mpw with a single WO day. I wonder if I slowly made my way up to 70mpw and/or added another WO day if I would break (get injured) or make enough gains to get close. I do have a coach guiding me through all this and he always asks for input from my side. No matter, it would have to be the perfect day and I would have to execute the perfect race. Thanks for the info and giving me more to think about. PS I'll be running the Sydney 26.2 in 2024 after an invite from World Majors Marathon Age Group Championships for my sub 3:10 race. I'm soooo excited!!!!
Hey Jim, excellent work on the 3:08. I'm not sure lifting your weekly mileage is the answer. Often, it's pure consistency and year-on-year improvements that can make a big difference. All the best in Sydney!
@@drwilloconnor Thanks for the response and I appreciate the well wishes. I have had almost 5 years now of very, very consistent running, as in last year, I did not miss a single scheduled run or WO. I honestly just may be too slow in the end but I'm sure I will give it a few big swings before I just start coasting to 3:20's. LOL All the best!
Great video!
Love the explanation bro . U reinstated some theory for me and teach some more as well ..
Question .. how can u increase your marathon pace overtime as the training progresses the same way as u say without really going into zone 3 or just in zone 3
Yep. If you improve your aerobic base by running a block in Zone 1-2, your pace in Zones 1 - 4 will improve too. Zones 5+ will probably still require a bit of speed work.
@@drwilloconnorthanks mate👊
my current 5k is 19.40 I did a 3.46 last year is it possible to go sub 3 with a solid 18 week block
Great video! I ran a sub40 10k (37ish) on the indoor pavement (short track) last week because of icy outdoor conditions. Is it realistic to target a sub330 (BQ qualifier) in 85 days of training leading to a Vancouver marathon this May 5th? Note: 50-70mi/week for the past 3 years consistently, 120lbs, 34yr female, full-time flexible work hours
Awesome video, i learned a lot. I didnt run for 6 years (finished a half marathon in 1:30h back then) and started all over with ~2 runs/week in April this year. I'm going to run a half marathon in October and plan on training for a full marathon next year.
Still my goal since 2008, thank you for the advice!! (PB-3:10)
I’ve been listening to running podcasts and watching running videos for years, but I’ve never seen/heard such great info on what must be a super popular topic for advanced runners.
Everyone out there is trying to be super general and broad to appeal to a wider audience, so this was fantastic to see.
I’ll be going for a sub-3hr marathon in a few months and it’s great to get some really specific info and to know I’m on the right track.
I got my anaerobic treshold at 4:16 and ran a 10K at 39:02.
Should i keep on training before aiming for sub 3?
56 V02 max and 86kgs 🫡
Very in-depth video...well done! I agree with the sub 40min 10km as no guarantee on its own...so true. When you discuss the 2 wrkouts a wk the 10k tempo @ goal m.p and the Threshold Intervals (5-15min) if these are done say 60hrs apart would be good for Adaptation time hey. A tues am with a thurs pm perhaps. Then the sun am longrun. Im curious whether you're suggesting m.p finish Each wkly longrun or juggling each frtnight progressive/fast linish longrun? As thats bordering on 3 wrkouts in a way hey. Cheers great content videos!
That gives me a good idea for a video - how to plan your training week.
Alternating weekly long runs, hard - easy, is a good idea. I've found that to be better for consistency compared to building every week. At least in the early weeks of marathon training.
You would want at least 48hrs separation in the workouts. In saying that, I did a block of training where I did my long run on Wednesday, and then did a double quality day on Saturday. I did threshold AM and Tempo PM. It was super effective. I was getting around 40km of high-quality training within one day. Friday was chill and Sunday was a day off. More time for the family!
@@drwilloconnor that certainly is a very family friendly plan you were doing. Smart doing the double session on the same day as the body has only had 10hrs or so to start the recovery process. Utilising a Parkrun could also be very clever for a 3 x 6min @lt2 threshold pace with a 2min float plus another 2 Intervals after the finish line then run back after for a social coffee haha.
Enjoyed the video. I ran a 2:57 marathon at age 56 and basically beat it into submission by volume. Often doing 160km per week almost all at a comfortable pace. I found by doing parkruns each Saturday that these were usually under 19 minutes in the weeks leading up to the race and I did a 10k in about 38:30. Right where you indicated you need to be, but from a lot of slow aerobic running. I found a lot of guys would take the high intensity path and can beat me easily over 5k aiming for sub:3 but not do the volume ended up being the guys that said “I was going really well until 29km then the wheels fell off”. Hoping to give sub:3 another scare in a few weeks now that I am in my 60’s.
160km/wk wow! No doubt your approach works. But very few guys can handle that kind of mileage consistently, even at an easy pace. You're obviously a special breed to be smashing out those Kms at 60 🤯
Damn! Amazing job! How did you recover and what your weekly run days were? Thats craazy mileage. Respect 🙏
Great info ! I am 55 and running around 130- 160km/ week easy as well...thx. for the hope..😊( from hot Beirut).
Excellent video. Rings true for me (2.57), and fortunately I had a coach who put these ideas into my block.
Aussie here.. Great vid, but, "miles"? Cmon
Wow, best video on this subject. Thanks a lot
Glad it was helpful. 👍
Awesome video
Thanks!
Would the threshold paces change if training in high heat and humidity or at altitude?
Most definitely. I'll do a separate video on that topic because there are a few things to consider. HR threshold will mostly stay the same since it's an internal reference metric compared to external like pace.
@drwilloconnor I look forward to the video, I'm currently living in key west florida so it's where I do a lot of my training. My threshold pace is around 6:40 and my goal is a sub 3 marathon, it's just very hot and humid here so I wasn't sure how much it could be slowing me down
"I've seen dedicated runners struggle to break 20 minutes in the 5k after a couple of years of consistent training."
Brutal
Not that surprising. According to run repeat stats, it’s within the top 2% of finish times. A year or two assuming no previous cardiovascular training sounds like the bare minimum.
First time viewer here, really informative video. I ran my first marathon in spring this year, hit 36’ 10k, 80’ HM and 2:09 20m in the build up, on race day went through halfway in 1:26 dead (target was 2:52), ended up running 3:04! I felt really in control up to that 19 miles and from that point the drop off was steep, with a walk/run combo for last 5-6 miles. Everyone I have spoken with suggest increasing mileage, i averaged 58k per week over 20 weeks. This included 2 weeks of not running due to injury/illness.
That is a lower mileage than I would usually recommend. Typical is 60 - 80km (50 miles). A couple of changes I would trial would be the length and intensity of your long run and a negative split pacing strategy. So, going through half at 1:31-1:32 to conserve the speed you clearly have for where you're the weakest, the backend.
Didn't you say that mileage didn't matter in the video?
@@peterwilkins7013To an extent. You can’t run a marathon on 20 miles a week for example.
Thanks good info I ran 3.00 last year at age 62 and aiming for sub 3 next year
I can't imagine running that fast in 30 years 🤯. Good effort!
To the point recommendations. Thank you!
He Will! Great video, loved the thorough explanation of the LT en MP training blocks. I ran a 3.17 marathon in Tokyo last march, while being very underprepared (just 6 weeks of training after injury). My goal is to run sub 3 at Valencia this year (first of december). I've build my weekly milage up to 60km, with a longrun, temporun and some interval sessions to get more speedy. Do you think it is possible for my to reach my sub 3 hour goal?
Hey mate, I’d need a lot more background info to answer that question for you. On the surface, shaving 18min off your Tokyo time is a big ask.
This is an excellent video!
Glad you think so!
Good on ya, mate!
🤙
Loving your explanations, Will, and adopting many of your principles into a sub-3 attempt. A question about HR, however… training in the Australian summer for a much cooler autumn race, it’s impossible to hit the appropriate paces without exceeding HR zones. Typically in autumn I see the HR fall into the right zone, but where should the hot weather training be focussed? Pace or HR? Thanks!
Have you been adjusting paces for temp/dew?
Great tips!
Glad it was helpful!
Hi dr will
Thanks for the details of running marathon sub3 .
Would like to go deeper about your workouts mentioned .
In my case , my 10k PB is 41mins , my 30mins TT test found out that my threshold Heart rate is around 180.
My target is to run marathon sub315 at this moment .
According to your workouts .
I should run
1. Tempo run 10k or even more at zone 3 (which is 159-171)
2. Marathon intervals in total 30mins at zone 4-5 ( which is 174-184)
What I wanna ask is , should I only focus on the heart rate in these 2 workouts ?
As I should run 4:37/km if I want to do sub315 but at this pace my heart rate would go higher then 170🥲.
Ah yes, that's why it's best to let your workouts dicate your finish time. Don't let your finish time dictate your workouts. Keep an eye for my new video on that topic. Coming soon.
For someone who wants to do a 7:20 min/mile pace for marathon and is who is able to do a 20 mile run at 7:20 min/ mile, does it mean they should be able to run 7:20 pace as their goal marathon pace?
20 miles and 26 miles is not much different when it comes to race pace, so in most cases in my opinion it's quiet possible
Really great video! I'm 49 and ran my first marathon at Manchester last Sunday in just under 3:06. I didn't really follow a plan, just increased my milage up to around 60k a week at peak. Later this year I've got NYC which I think it will just go with the flow, enjoy the day and use it as my long run ahead of Valencia a month later which I hope to achieve sub 3. Might follow the Hanson marathon method...
Nice work! Hopefully, I can help you to develop your own method!
@@drwilloconnor Definitely! 🙏 💯 👍
Great video! One thing I was wondering was how this aligns with the 80/20 rule you have mentioned in other video's. If you do 30 minutes of threshold running and 1-2 hours of marathon tempo each week, that would mean you need to do 6-10 hours of zone 2 running to follow the 80/20 rule. Even at 6 hours, your weekly time running would be 7.5 hours, which would equate to a weekly mileage well above the 60km you mention. Is it best to spread the two key workouts over multiple weeks so that you can follow the 80/20 rule, or should you stick to the 2 workouts on a weekly basis and accept the fact that the easy hard split would be something closer to 60/40?
Absolutely, you're spot on. For marathon training with less than 6 hours per week, you'll indeed need to up the intensity beyond 20%. Marathon-specific workouts might take up 30-40% of your weekly volume, adapting the 80/20 rule to fit your training needs. However, this shift in intensity (above 20%) applies mainly to the final 4-week intensive block of your marathon training. During this phase, adjust your other training to be less intense, ensuring a balanced approach. In the final phase, you might not do 30min of threshold running and instead do HIIT, which is far lower volume.
@@drwilloconnor Great, thanks a lot!
Great info
The day you run your second half of the marathon faster than your first half....you will run your PB!! Remember that !!!!
So hard to do, though!
Worked for me on my first last week 😊
The marker time for a sub 3 are they before you begin training block or during trainings for example could i start a 16 week training block for sub with a 41 min 10k
During training. You'd want to be hitting the times with 6 weeks to go, at least.
@@drwilloconnor thanks for the information
Amazing video, this is exactly what I needed. One question though: the sub 39' 10km and sub 1:26'km times you mention that runners should be able to do in order to run sub 3, is that at the beginning of your sub 3 hour marathon training or at the end? Because I can for sure run these numbers but my marathon is in one month haha
Pretty sure, that's what he meant
It'll be close! You'll need to have your pacing and nutrition super dialled in. Start easy, finish fast!
Excellent video Will! I'm going to replay this one a lot just to remind myself to these basics you mention. Thanks for sharing!
Glad it was helpful!
I have ran a 38: 56 10 k and a 1:22:54 HM 6 Months ago but I’m struggling to run a sub 3:00 marathon. My phone was 3:04:11(unofficial) or 3:05:13(official race time). During my last 2 marathons I’ve had to stop and slow down around 31/33 km because of calf muscle cramps. I’m trying to deal with this with incorporating more strength training and hope that I can achieve my goal next November (unlikely) or next April (more likely).
Quick question. What was your time for your first four 5km sections? If any of the splits were faster than 20:30min you started too fast.
@@drwilloconnor 21:23 but i don’t think that is the problem
Good dose of reality. I'm close (1:26 1/2 pr last year but a net downhill course) but I don't think I quite have a 39 10k. I'm close enough that if I was younger I think it would be within training, but at 57 I think my days of overall PRs are limited.
You might have to make some age-adjusted PR goals!
@@drwilloconnor I did crank out a 39:45 10K on a dirt track tonight. My dilemma now is- since I have a time I'm happy with (sub 3:12 last year), do I go for broke and start with the 3h pace group, with a very high probability that I'll blow up, or do the 'smart' conservative thing and start with 3:05 or 3:10 and aim to PR. I've seen a lot of people 'fail' using a pace group because they think it will drag them to a time they're not really capable of. I've always used pace groups to hold myself back in the first 15-20 miles.
It's really a matter of which option (and result) will leave me with the least regret.
You'll never be disappointed with a strong finish and a PR. I'd go for the 3:05 group, which would give you a foot in both camps. If it's a bit much, you should only slow a little rather than completely blowing out like a sub 3hr attempt. If it works out, you could have a massive PR to be proud of.
@@drwilloconnor post mortem: I planned to go with the 3Hr pace group and give myself 5k to establish an effort/HR and promised myself I'd back off it if wasn't working. Of course in the moment promises are hard to keep :-) My intended range was 128-130 (my LT is about 138). This was CIM, so rolling hills for the first half, and while it would inch into the 134-136 going up, I could usually recover it on the way down. But I knew it was adding up. .By 10k I knew although I was feeling good, it wasn't sustainable. But I held on just to see how far I could go. By the 1/2 I had to face reality and back off and bring my HR back into Marathon zone.
From then on I didn't look at my pace at all and just went by effort, occasionally checking my HR. My quads started to tighten at about 25km. In retrospect I wasn't keeping up with my hydration/electrolytes. Not bad, but not to my plan and not enough. I think that was a small contribution though.
I did manage to mostly hold it together for a PR of 3:05:14, which I am happy with. I had been saying although I wanted to shoot for 3, I thought 3:05-3:10 was realistic. I probably could have shaved a minute or 2 if I had started with the 3:05, but this way I also don't wonder what-if.
Not sure about next year- I'm still thinking an 80% age grade might be a better "attainable but certainly not guarantied" goal.
I just ran 2:58:41 on my first marathon. Max I ran a week was 45 miles. Neglected speed work. Drank beer 5 times a week. Didn't ever stretch... Moral of the story is just go out and live your life and run. 😊 cheers 🍻
I ran 2:28 first up utilising a run focussed triathlon program
Have done 52 of them all under 3hrs. One was when ran 28km to start line and then did marathon
Great video.
Im in process of training for a 2hrs 50mins marsthon. First time having a crack at sub 3hr.
I did a 5k time trial about 6 weeks ago. Avg pace was 3:35 pkm. Im 4 weeks out from the race. Ive just gone through a week of alot of self doubt about being able to break sub 3hr. Ive been doing min 80km a week and ever 4wks a recovery week. My easy runs sit around 4:36ish pkm.
With thesw sort of numbers, do you think my self doubt this week has some merit ?
Thanks for the vid
I forgot to add. My longs runs are cut off at 32km. I'll finish last 20mins at marsthon pace or quicker which avgs out at about 3:40ish. My avg HR for these workouts usually sit about 152-56ish
You've got all the numbers to suggest #sub3, but your self-doubt could undo you on race day. I've seen too many dudes try to “bank time” early in the marathon because they don't back themselves to finish strong. In the end, they blow up because they use up their carbohydrates too early. I suggest starting out at 4:15-4:20 for the first hour, knowing you can EASILY ramp up the oace from there. That'll ensure you’re setting yourself up for success in the backend.
@drwilloconnor thank you. I'll be testing those paces out this weekend for my long run. And see how it feels. Hopefully nailing the long run on weekend will boost my confidence.
Just finished the active recovery week, and I think that's what I needed.
Thanks for the advice