How can Miata always be the answer when there are multiple Miatas and an E30?- Carmudgeon Show Ep 51
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2022
- In this episode, Jason Cammisa and Derek ("Hyphen") Tam-Scott discuss having to choose between the Miata NC and ND, specially NC3 and ND2, after driving them back to back on a rally.
Of course, the meandering conversation starts with BMW E90 and E90 LCIs, the term Life-Cycle Impulse, and the hideousness of E60 and the E65 BMWs.
NB, Hyphen says, is not the right answer. But NC2 and NC3 might be. ND Miata proved the entire industry wrong - it's possible to drop weight and gain performance. But it didn't come alive until the ND2's higher-revving engine.
But is it better than the NC2 Miata?
And is even that better than an E30 BMW 325i?
It takes an entire episode to find out, but the Carmudgeons are clear on this decision.
And to discuss whether we're in a bubble of old-car values?
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The Carmudgeon Show is part of the Hagerty Podcast Network. It consists of multiple award-winning automotive journalist Jason Cammisa and automotive expert and Derek Tam-Scott of ISSIMI.
Nice to see Alex Albon getting time to do interviews so quickly after Miami
I see no red hair
Tam hyphen could tear Albon in half.
@@steveo8424 I’m picturing hyphen sat in the 2022 Williams with his arms sat on top of the cockpit because they don’t fit. Like a drowned child, submerged head and body yet bobbing on the surface due to their inflated water wings…
Hahahahaha
@@gregmayled bruh hahahahhaa
Owner of a lightly modded NC1 here. Was planning on trading in for a decent NC2. Thanks for driving up the price on these. I'll be sending an invoice to your offices.
1 year later NC prices are absolutely crazy
@@fahmidnd2 u can still get an alright one for 10k. A little high but the experience it provides is pretty unique nowadays so it's worth it tbh.
Edit: Ok more like 13k at the baseline. Still not bad at all though. Very obtainable still.
@@royshavrick Honestly cant complain, with these civcs going for that much. I couldnt imagine going back to a fwd.
I have a 15 year old Cayman and a friend has an ND, both stock. We traded cars for a week. All 'normal' driving in the ND is more fun. The car is light, the controls are light, every turn has an apex you can hit without leaving your lane. A blast all the time. But once you creep past 7/10 on a backroad, it switches- the Cayman's sound, controls, stability & communication make it more fun. So while I can argue the Cayman is the superior sports car, I must acknowledge that I only get to enjoy a backroad once or twice a month. Those other 28 days of commuting, picking up coffee, and going to the grocery store are all more fun in the Miata.
This! Nailed it. And why I’ve always loved my Miatas
If u add coilovers in the miata even from 7/10 to 11/10 the miata will be way more fun then the cayman.
@@Sideways_Singh Having had an NB with a high-end modified suspension, and now owns a bone-stock 981 Boxster S, I'd disagree with you.
The suspension mods definitely lift the ceiling on the Miata (and is mandatory, IMO), but the platform lacks the stability and balance of the Porsche when you're at 10/10s. You've always got to manage the tail when you're flat out, because of the short wheelbase and 50/50 weight distribution (as opposed to 45/55, where you can push through the corners).
All that said, the Miata is more fun to wring out on the street, handling wise, as long as you don't add way too much grip (like I eventually did).
@@MegaNardman @Nick ur talking about a different car, I meant the ND, the NC & ND are in a whole different universe compared to the flimsy NA & NB those cars no matter how much u mod em them will never be no where near the level NC & ND. Plus I'm talking about on road not on track, and the 2cnd part of ur comment agrees, u wanna be on the limit and managing oversteer while having that rotation and turn in of the short wheelbase and featherweight chassis. With the better handling of other cars like cayman u need a race track to truly enjoy it. Even on a track tho with sticky 245 wide tires and proper coilovers u can pull g forces in low speed sharp corners like a gt3rs.
This is why I sold a 981 boxster s last week and am getting an ND2 Miata. I loved the Boxster, but you struggle to enjoy if unless you’re driving very rapidly.
I had to call Hagerty last week, and I mentioned to the rep that YES, I LOVE THE FACT that THE CARMUDGEON show under their brand.
I visited ISSIMI last year, and mentioned that I heard of them through the Carmudgeon show, lol.
Your first Miata episode is the reason I own a 1.8 NC2, and since I’ve learned that the rear toes out under initial sideload, before the suspension can compress and it toes back in, not a single onramp has been driven straight, thank you Sandler and / !
Wrote this before watching
Have you ever driven a 2.0? Is the power difference very noticable and even if it is is the 1.8 enough?
@@Cypress_green no, I wish I had, but they are pretty rare and now quite expensive in Germany. I've heard the power difference isn't too noticeable, but the redline sure would be, the 1,8 pulls well to about 6.6, and then wheezes its way to its 7k rpm cutoff. Sounds alright doing it but just runs out of steam. The 1,8 wasn't revised. I'd say the worst bit is the 5speed though. While it's supposed to shift better than the 6speed, the gears are just so unbearably long on some roads, wich sometimes leads to no acceleration in 3rd gear because because of a slight incline although you shifted at the limiter in second. Suprisingly I miss the LSD less than I thought I would, the car really drifts fine compared to other copen diff cars I've driven, especially in the wet, But a while ago I drove a friends NB on cheap coilovers, rollbar and 1.8 with a diff, and that car was just so much more lively
And to answer if the 1.8 is enough: it really depends. it depends on the sort of roads you're driving, wether you want to drift more or not, and wether you can live with the longer gearing. That same friends NB is now turbocharged to over 200 WHP, and by just braking (much) later (because what even is wear on brakes) and carrying more speed on better tires I could sort of keep up, and actually keep up down hill. I think its completley enjoyable on the tight as hell roads it gets taken on, but don't expect on power oversteer, especially on the stock suspension that will basically take all weight off the front of the car as soon as you touch the throttle.
Oh and if you like a car to be an actual serious precise driving device that doesn't want you to laugh at it when you pendulum turn it into an intersection as the power steering pump can't keep up and you're having to fight that floppy rear end, for the sake of the monthly insurance bill, with a steering wheel heavier than the burden of knowing that a 1.6 vtec civic can gap you, I suggest something more like a GT86.When buying this Miata I thought I was getting a completley different car, but I still started to love it despite its shortcomings. And if the NC is supposed to be the more uptight one I don't think I wanna experience the near deth encounters the ND will bring.
I don't know why i just gave you my almost entire MX5 opinion to a simple question, it's late, don't ask
@@TiyamatFTL Thank you so much for this detailed answer. It seems to me the 1.8 isn't powerless enough to compromise the miata expirience from what you're telling me but that is not exactly what I'm after really. I would prefer a more precise driving tool and I hope that is achievable with the adition of coilovers, sway bars and very grippy tires. Would you say your friends nb is more precise and serious, more focused?
Hyphen not slash, although slash would sound cooler
One note I have as an ND2 daily driver is that even with the TCS on, the car still allows you to have a bit of fun before it kicks in
34:43 Lol, I love that Derek's idea of a relevant pop-culture reference is a 75-year-old black-and-white Kubrick film. Never change, Hyphen.
Only 58 years, but indeed.
Cammisa needs to sit down and watch it. It's one of the best movies ever made, and only gets better with repeated views.
So glad this show is now consistently consistent
great episode, again! I can't stress enough how much I enjoy you bois getting back together over a table and ranting about stuff! the video call episodes were really lacking something for me. can't wait for the next ep.
As much as I enjoy the smoking tire podcast, I really really like this podcast. Sometimes Matt goes off on tangents about social issues that bother him, which hey, it's his format, he can do what he wants. But, I much rather prefer this more automotively focused format that brings up topics that I never actually thought of but find very interesting. Looking forward to the next episode!
Zach is a better co-host though if I'm being honest though. Keeps me from loving this podcast.
This. Between that and the obsession with Elon musk, self loathing segments, complaining about self inflicted weight gain, harping on safety and social responsibility, it’s almost become a bummer. That show used to be a booze-infused party and zack was a fantastic comic relief. Now he stays so quiet.
@@tealruby1 hard disagree. Dts' massive well of information combined with his flat way of expression make him a riot
That's the main reason I stopped listening to the Smoking Tire Podcast.
I want to personally thank you guys for educating people about the amazingness of the NC2 when I'm looking yo sell mine
What I love about my 01 NB is that I can drive it at 9/10ths everywhere I go and not get arrested. A pure sports car driving experience.
Thanks for taking the time to put pictures into the podcast, very much appreciated!
Yesss, keep them coming!! Those thoughts on the E90 are exactly how I feel too. These cars feel special as soon as you start driving them. The steering snaps back to center and tells you exactly what’s going on, that I6 sings, and those sports seats are awesome. These are the exact reasons why I sold an F30 328i 6 speed and got an E90 330xi 6 speed to replace it.
Agreed. I shudder to think of anything bad happening to my E82. A few suspension tweaks from the E92 M3, a short shifter, BMW performance exhaust, and that N/A N52 make me smile every time I drive it. The sport seats are so good, I retrofitted them. I got a brand new loaner while my PCV heater recall was being done. I could not wait to get my car back. The new one had no soul.
I have a 08 328i 6 speed coupe and I absolutely love it, m3 arms, complimented by a m3 spec billstien pss10 kit make the car a joy to drive, it also has some arc8 wheels, a 3 stage intake and tune, and a 328xi 3.91 diff with a mfactory 2 way lsd. It’s hard not to drive this car like an asshole. The easiest way to describe it is a slightly more sure footed e46m3 with a fatter powerband.
Great to see some love for the NC. It's so very underrated. It's the most well-rounded and fun Miata. You can feel it through your bones. I own the one which I find the most beautiful as well, the NC1 Launch Edition. And I wouldn't change it for anything in the world. Not even a 911.
I prefer the looks of NC1 also lol.
I love the Mazda UI with the rotary dial. Once you own one for a week it’s easy. I honestly am frustrated at all the hate they get.
I’ve had 2 NB1 10ae, one turned into an exocet. That is a sweet point in the Miata generation timeline, 1.8bp, 6speed, and 3.9 lsd. Driving nirvana.
As a Miata Nut, I'd have to agree: an NC2 with upgraded springs and shocks will handle better at the limit than a stock ND2, and yes...the engine does sound better. But the ND2 engine is a work of art, literally...aluminum valve cover and all. Mazda did this as an aesthetic throw-back to the NA (according to Dave Coleman) and it's a beautiful engine (if you care). The ND is a well-executed return to NA roots (where the NC departed), and like the NC it's few shortcomings at the limit can be easily remedied with aftermarket bits.
ND also just feels better materials/finish wise. The NC isn't terrible but they fall right into the "cheap plastic" style on the interior. I don't think it is actually cheap plastic, they have shown to stand up well as they age, but they are a product of their time and where the company was at.
ND series still has a lot of plastic but it was developed during the early days of Mazda getting into more premium interiors, and trying new things like the body color panel on the interior of the doors and interior trim work detailing. Even 9 years later, when I test drove a 2023 model for the first time, I didn't feel the interior was dated at all other then the infotainment system being small compared to modern cars (and for the type of car that is actually a plus). You can tell it was the transition between the old buttons/dials into the modern car with everything through the screen for setup and adjusting.
As the owner of an 2018 ND1 Club soft top (this was the first year of the ST having the revised spring rates and V2 Bilstein’s), I totally agree with you guys about the sudden sideways/non predictable behavior of the rear end. Honestly I think part of it the junk Bridgestone Potenza S001 tires that don’t give any warning of where the limit is (the new Z is on S007’s and Jason mentions similar behavior). And then the soft swaybars and roll factor on top of an air cooled 911 wheelbase? I honestly keep traction and stability control on and it lets you have a bit of sideways fun before engaging.
I’ve since installed slightly wider wheels with a lower offset and 215/45/17 PS4S tires, lowered it on Ohlins and got it re-aligned and the car is much more linear and communicative of where the limits are. It still rolls a lot with the ARB’s being stock, but I feel Mazda should’ve given at least the Club a more focused suspension setup that doesn’t keep one wondering on a back road.
How great to see you again gents!
You're doing amazing things!!!
Everytime I see your shows I feel like I'm sitting next to you there! 😎🤘
Be the power with you!
I love my ND1. I bought one used back in 2019 with 4000 miles on it (so basically brand new) and I have just loved driving it! I did have to make some mods though. I had to fix the suspension issue. ND1s, especially the first couple of years were super wallow-y and just felt way too soft. I put a set of lowering springs and sway bars in it and that solved the issue. It handles so much better than it did before. Next thing I did was install a set of headers and an exhaust along with a tune and that solved the lack of engine noise, but also added a couple of horsepower on the top end and fattened up the torque curve in the midrange. The way it sits now, it is a pretty much perfect weekend/occasional track car! I love my ND!
You guys should totally do a show (or probably a 3 part series) on all the greats from 1984 to 2010. That is I think a golden age of automobile, especially for enthusiasts. You got (real) hot hatches, VWs were shoving that glorious sounding VR6s into a bunch of cars. Miata, E30/36/46… Hondas and their VTECs. Heck even the Ford Taurus SHO with that crazy Yamaha motor. Nissan with their SE-Rs and Maxima, Mitsubishi had their Turbo Eclipse GSTs and VR4. Everything cumulating and sorta of came together in the last decade (2000s) with the Honda S2000, Porsche introducing the Caymans and the Boxster and the GT3s, BMW and Audi shoving high revving V8s into their compact sports sedans.
I think I have to agree with Jason more on this current trend. Sure demographics and supply chain certainly played a part with the current used car prices but I think a large part of it is also the fact that we are both exiting an era where cars build during those times were truly special and fantastic to drive, AND the recognition that cars of the future will be more dramatically different than even the transition from carburetors to fuel injections with the coming electrification. There is just this sense that if you want some of the last great gas powered cars that are fun to drive, you need to look at cars build in this era and start shoving them away.
Having driven all the generations, I can say the sweet spot in terms of sensations is the NB 1.8, the best steering feeling of all them (closer ratio than the NA) and the best gearbox feeling if in good condition (5 speed), it only lacks in torque compared with the NC2/ND2.
Agreed. The NB 1.8 also got a reworked intake manifold compared to the NA 1.8s. I'm surprised they didn't like the NB, (especially the NB1).
I love all Miatas, though.
Great videos. Especially since I'm in the bay area and relate to many of your comments. This video helped me on my decision to get an NC2. I test drove all the generations and owned an NA and I'm happy I went with my decision for my needs. Each generation serves a slightly different purpose within the Miata world.
wow, I have the ND2...and I thought I was just imagining that it was so tail happy! Autocross experience led to quite the screams from passengers and driver! Glad to hear y'alls thoughts on this. Yes, it's a great daily. Yes, at first it was like that, but an aftermarket exhaust and coilovers really transform the car. New bigger tires and aero are just icing on the cake. :D My only complaints after 2 years are the cupholders and the ridiculously slow infotainment system.(I like the rotary knob instead of a smudgefest screen)
I too am a cursmudgeon
I have the hybrid K20/K24 in my RSX. The extra torque is great, but the stock K20 with bolt-ons revs higher and is far more fun at the track. The K24 is great for passing on the highway and low end is better on the street, but I would swap a K20 into an Elise for track use FTW.
Gee, I can't get used to this new pace, I listened to episode 50 just this morning! 😂
I’ve been preaching the gospel of the NC2 for 2 years ever since I got mine. Funny how Miata people say the NA is the best, but general car enthusiasts say NC2 is best
Hyphen's been hitting the gym. Looking good, Hyphen!
It makes me happy to hear you guys say the ND2 with the Brembo/BBS/Recaro is best Miata (especially in Soul Red Crystal George Mica). I ordered this car a month ago and have been searching the interwebs for all things Miata and the car gods have blessed us with this. If you ever need a ND Club Miata for video usage. Also, the Mazda infotainment is fine, and when you have an apple, now has wireless car play. One week with it and you'll never mind it again.
They didn’t say that’s the best one, they said that’s the best trim to get if you buy an ND. They unanimously agreed the NC2 was the best between the two.
If you throw on aftermarket sway bars on the ND it completely fixes the body roll/rear instability issue without any negative effects.
I was thinking about the 80’s conversation you finished on and agree, it is my favourite period of cars. Mostly because I got my license in 85, then became obsessed with the flood of second hand JDMs that were brought into New Zealand at the time. RX7s, MR2 Supercharged and the cool euro stuff too. BMW 325i, M3, 635csi, jaguar xjs, Porsche 944, Sierra Cosworth, lots of influence from the Bathurst race cars in Australia at that time also.
to 27:00 , best EPAS I've felt so far is the GR yaris. It's insane how well you can feel understeer, it loads up extremley well and is nicely weighted/matched for the crazy amount fo grip the michelins have. You can actually feel road imperfections, and it leads to you constatly feeling around for grip like with a hydraulically assisted system. also oversteer feels very good, and is communicated nice and early, no poopy pants moments
And now I want my GR back. I really hope that Camissa or Derek could have a go with one. Would like to see their opinion on it.
@@KarlkEst Back? what happened to it? I'm sure they will somehow at some point, they get around
@@TiyamatFTL sold it after 1,5 years and 25k km of owning it.
@@KarlkEst did you buy it like the day it came out or something?
or is my brain just that stuck in time because of lockdown?
also damn, 25k in that time, what made you sell it?
@@TiyamatFTL I ordered as soon as it was announced so summer 2020.
So happy to have carmudgeon back…
Loved this sode. Jason is correct about the used market... and also the over usage of 'frothy'.
The ND is hilarious as a road car. Yes, it is untidy and unruly beyond 8/10ths but as a daily it’s a riot. The only car I know that makes 40kph to the shops fun…but if you intend to get really serious regularly you probably will want to mod it. I lived with a relatively stock ND for a few years and loved it. My wife had an NC2 and I never really bonded with it.
Listening to this from my NC! Much love guys!
The stock Bridgestones on the ND2 don't help the rear ends cause at all. Once I got off them and went to a PS4S. The car felt way way more connected at the back. Still way too soft. But at least it feels less deadly mid corner.
what exactly are the stock tires?
@@TiyamatFTL Bridgestone potenza s001
E30 video on UA-cam. Hyphen- "Oh, look at that." Perfect summary of UA-cam. Thanks for that. 😄
Love that your intro question is the tattoo on AndImJames's lower back. (For anyone wondering wtf I'm talking about, go watch Throttle House's video on the Honda S2000 CR).
Love you guys but just disagree on this particular topic. I had an NB and loved it. Drove an NA and prefer the NB…..both in terms of aesthetics and the addition of a bit more power. Owned an NC1 and really didn’t care for it. Now have an ND2 and it is - imho - demonstrably the best one they’ve ever made. Sometimes like the rawness of the older ones (NA or NB)……but the overwhelming % of time, I’d have the ND. I didn’t drive the ND1 so can’t speak from experience how much I like ND1 vs the ND2.
Please do an Icons episode with SCCA's "STR boilerplate" (255s front/rear, upgraded dampers on 700/500 lb/in springs front/rear, mild /legal ECU tune, Berk sport cat) comparing S2000, ND2, NC3, and Series 2 Elise. Surprised that you omitted the S2000 from this Carmudgeons episode of Fizzy Roadsters - charismatic engines revving to 8K+, rifle-bolt shifters, usable gearing, reliability, nimble handling and overall accessible performance envelope tailored to tight twisty roads between 20 - 60 MPH. Keep up the great work.
I miss driving stick so much. It’s my goal to get a stick shift car in a year or two. I taught myself how to drive stick in a early 2000’s accord and it was a blast.
For a long time, performance cars have chased numbers. We're kind of at the end of the numbers era as we've gotten to performance that isn't really usable on the street. And the delivery of this kind of performance has, in a lot of cases, taken away from the kind of experience this episode talks about. For a lot of us, a car that feels/sounds exciting is more important than the raw numbers but the former is getting hard to find in affordable usable new cars. That's what made the E30 magic -- that experience in a small sedan!
Too little too late. Power numbers might be reaching a limit, but with the advent of e-Vs, they won't go back to making visceral lightweight sports cars. They seem to be shifting their focus towards in-car entertainment and autonomous driving. That's what's going to supersede the performance numbers game. So the FEEL's not coming back. And autonomous driving is kind of the greatest antithesis of enthusiast car.
At the close of the episode our carmudgeonly crew discuss what marked the end of the malaise era. For me, it was two key events: the introduction of the Chevy Citation X-11 and the Ford Mustang GT (see the September 1981 issue of Motor Trend with its "the Boss is back" tagline). Granted, the later and its Fox-boy brethren kept going, but I can't emphasize enough how excited and relieved I felt to welcome in a return to performance cars, however tepid at the time.
I have an ND3 sport without the limited slip diff and it’s honestly easier to keep the rear in check. The diff is pretty aggressive in the club and above. The steering improved nicely over the ND2 as well.
Excellent, as always.
The Mazda spinny wheel is the absolute best and this is a hill I'll die on. The explanation at 19:50 is absolutely right. I disagree with mazda that touchscreens are dangerous, but the wheel is still easier to use quickly without paying a ton of effort to it. I disabled the touchscreen lock and still never used the touchscreen after a couple days.
That point on everything old is getting crazy expensive is a really good one
@the carmudgeon show Hi guys, great to have podcasts every week!;-) Just have a question about the Miatas, since your discussion was not conclusive;-) I have quite a lot modified NB - (Suspension including bushings, rollbars, semislicks,short diff etc.) and I want to upgrade to ND2 and give it a suspension (springs + dampers) and semislicks. Now I hear you recomend NC2, but it was note a fair comparison. Would you choose the ND2 if it had the same mods as the NC2 you drove? Thank you, I value your opinion a lot;-) note: I use the car as club racer - sometimes using it arround town, some backroads and some moderate track-use. I dont mind some harshness in the arround town use.
Ha, great video. I love everything about my nc2. Makes me smile every day.
Good one guys!!
Having driven both and owned an NC, the NC with a set of good tires is way easier to drive fast than the ND.
A suspension adjustment is totally necessary on both. Sway bars springs and konis. Then it’s a scalpel
20:00 The ND Miata informatainment can be modified to allow using the touchscreen while driving. It's called (I'll come back when I remember the name)
hacking the infotainment to do this bricked the computer's compass for whatever reason on my 2016 Mazda3 😩
Narrator: He did not, in fact, come back.
The way you describe the top end of the rev range of the NC miata reminds me exactly what my ND2 feels like at the above 6500k RPM. For those last 1000 or 1200 revs, it feels like the car takes off. I can only ever really get there in 2nd gear, as I'd be doing 75mph in 3rd gear at 6000 RPM.
Yeah I sort of agree. I’ve never driven an NC2 so perhaps the experience is even more visceral, but with an aftermarket exhaust my ND2 gets rather intense-sounding and feeling after 6000.
@@corbin739 which exhaust?
@@kr2426 Cobalt
One advantage of the shorter gearing of the ND which I don't think was mentioned is slightly easier to enjoy topping out in third more often than in the NC.
moreover billSCHTEIN is so satisfying to say compared to bilstein
NC2=E36 M3 46:50 is such an interesting comparison that *might* have sold me on the NC2.
I'm a current NC2 owner and former E36 M3 owner, and I can almost see what Derek is saying, but I've never felt they were similar. The Miata character is just much more fun and lively.
I have an NC2 and spent a good 3 months making the same decision...I like the ND2 a lot but here in the UK a nice ND2 is more than double a decent NC2 and for a fun sports car rather than a daily driver (in that order), the NC2 is just better
In my Mazda6 Wagon I only have to disable start-stop after each start. The lane keep assist does stay off after re-start. I hate to see two amber lights on the dash ALL the time, but yes, there are sacrifices one has to make.
And for the start-stop, Mazda only turns off the engine when you purposefully depress the brake pedal beyond a certain point, so knowing that, you can easily drive your way around the 'feature'.
To me the Miata in general, really any gen, is the answer because its so deeply customizable with an already lightweight balanced chassis. Like you said, a Kswap and some aero, or drift setups, even rally style lofts work on the thing for mixed-surface autocross type stuff or something. And god knows at least for me if I got a (stifles wretching) an E30, id swap it too at the least lol. The Miata can even be made to look how you want, especially NAs.
I know it's sacrilege but I much prefer driving an ND RF to the soft top; the issue you both mentioned with being too insulated from the motor is fixed with the roof in place. Just a shame it adds weight in the wrong place
Love my ND1 RF. Smile like an idiot every time I drive it.
The RF is actually 50/50 whereas the ST is 52/48.
@@g60corrado91 I meant more that the weight is on the top of the car instead of down low. But that's interesting to note, I wonder if that's why the RF reminded me so much of my old '13 FR-S
@@Nomikeal oh yeah I wasn’t thinking of center of gravity. Good point. And yeah, definitely could be! ND’s in general really benefit from aftermarket suspension including anti-roll bars and alignments.
I’m excited for the new topic. The values are so high because new supply of enthusiast cars are low but also everyone sees that there are no plans for more in the future so everyone must fight over what already exists. Not to mention a global pandemic showed everyone that we aren’t going to live forever so as Andy dufresne once said get busy living or get busy dieing.
Waiting for that 80s & 90s tests episode 🙌
I own a 2020 Fiat 124 spider Abarth and like the NDs there is a software "hack" where you can enable touch on the screen while moving including android auto and car play.
Honda b series vtec engines has the best top end feel as four cylinder. Very visceral and raw especially tuned.
There were much larger steps in technological development between the late 80s and the late 90s and thus a lot more to get excited about in period. Think about going from VHS to Laserdisc to DVD, or from an NES to a SNES to an N64, or from a 280Z to a Z31 300ZX to a Z32 300zx etc., all in the span of about 10 years. Thereafter, everything became a lot more incremental, so although new stuff is objectively better, there is less to get excited about. Maybe a lot of us just like cars that remind us of a time when we liked cars?
Just put Ohlins and A052’s on my NC3, the grip is over 9000.
Great conversation! You don't need pop filters on those SM7B mics. ;)
I have a 2020 Giulia Ti Sport and touch works while driving? Maybe the 2016-2019 Giulia infotainment was different?
F****, current NA owner, wanted a moderna NA, with fuel economy and reliability and livability of a modern car, decided on the ND, now thanks to you, Im looking for NC2. I really love the driving experience, I dont think I drive 10/10ths anywhere, but i do love those rallys, and driving "fast". PFFF, i will have to drive them both! Still awesome show even though it cracked my head a bit.
Sacrificing my morning to the Carmudgeons
Love it guys. It would be good to have photos added to the stream too. When talking about cars A,B or C why not post them into the video? This can be done live by a producer surely, it's not complex. We don't have all US models in the UK doing this would help to illustrate what your are referring to. Thick Zack in TST.
It really feels like the S2000/F20C/F22C should have ben mentioned in this discussion of great 4 cylinder sports cars/engines.
I had a 2013 sport, bought new for 24K out the door. Much better everyday car ( just 3 of the 10 years that I owed it). yes, very cheap interior, but so much storage ( way bigger trunk, even with the aftermarket donut in it). put a luggage rack and bag on trunk and camped out in it on a cross country trip as well as as trip to Glacier NP. and that stupid screen on ND is a deal breaker. the das on NC is classic look and super functional. I don't drive anywhere near the limit as these guys, but Ive done almost 1000 miles several times in it. Top was down except when doing long interstate driving. Too small to tow a trailer is the only reason I got rid of it. It was a sweet ride and trouble free. I'll never forget drive up California coast, passing two 18 wheelers in the desert near Death Valley, Driving the Going to sun Road in GNP or diving to Key West. Just too small to be every year cross county car ( well ima not 20 anymore). Great car and if I could afford 2 cars, it would still be in my garage. NC is just a better car IMO.
49:00 jason cammissa is right. a high mileage Acura RSX Type S with the k20 is pushing 12,000$ usd
Nostalgia gets confused for actual objective “betterness”. We have lost some character but almost all new stuff is objectively better, we just got much pickier. How a vehicle makes you feel is worth more than its objective “betterness” i think this is why the 25 year rule you talk about exists. People who didn’t have money to meet their idols then in those years are nostalgic and driving prices for good examples through the roof. Also having basic necessities like AC and power features makes driving 20-25 year old cars not terrible vs new cars unlike buying 25 year old cars 25 years ago.
Correct.
When’s the episode on the basics of automotive enthusiasm rules that you talked about before?
Yet another advantage to NC2-3 you can reliably boost the 2009 and newer cars (with a forged bottom end) and I have so far only found a equivalent drive in a gt4... yes I am comparing a $100k gt4 to a $30k miata... simply put the smiles per gallon CANNOT be beat!
And the RX8 trans which is ready for far more power than the NC is offering stock. Depending on tuner, you're seeing somewhere between 270-290whp being reliable with a turbo kit and upgraded clutch. That's very quick for cars that are still around 400lb lighter than a S2000.
@@nottherealaaron but what about my NA purity :(
@@nottherealaaron Pretty sure the 6 speeds are the same as the rx8 ?
@@scottcolpitts8521 AFAIK. It’s just in a different housing.
The 6spd is the same as the rx8... and a touch north of 300whp is absolutely possible... and the key to competing with gt4s...
Are you sure about all those changes between NC1 and NC2? The forged internals and a 50rpm redline increase yeah but besides that it was almost entirely style right?
Yes, I was there: In the 80s everybody (who I hung out with) WAS bitching that engines no longer had carburetors and wheels no longer had wires. Big Healeys still had all the magic, and we were quite skeptical about all this "VG30DETT" business. Digital fuel injection? Sounds suspicious.
I'd love to love a 100-6 again, but I don't pine for them anymore, and I just don't think they're drivable on American roads these days. And with the historic disruption that's underway with electricity and autonomous driving, I assume there will come a point at which my 3.2 Carrera is no longer survivable on the road and is worth less and less each year.
I only drove an NC 2.0 for about an hour, that's my whole MX5 / Miata experience so far. At that time my then only car broke down too early to buy an MX5 so it didn't happen then.
Now I guess I really would have bought an ND, maybe even the RF version (yeah...) but there's no chance I would sell my GT86 or Mk3 Supra to get an ND to replace them :-D
I only clicked because of the great channel name and of course it's Jason.
Have you guys ever tried a well set up nc1?
As a former Nissan driver (1992 Maxima SE 5-speed, many suspension mods & 1996 240sx SE 5-speed not as many suspension mods) I feel seen in this episode. The interior of the 240 was crap compared to the Maxima. If I could have combined the two into a RWD coupe with the engine and interior of the Maxima, I might still have a Nissan.
Yes, I know this episode is ancient, I'm catching up.
The NB is a way better car than the NA. More refined and a more complete driving experience. The NA has a little more personality and I think that makes it slightly overrated. (I've had an NA6, NB1 and currently on an ND2)
I guess I am buying an ND ! Thanks guys. I might not recover from this ...
As someone who owns an ND club, suspension and exhaust upgrades are a prerequisite. Then the car is a scalpel. Before that, the body roll is disgusting.
You shit on NB Miata, but i have to note here, that it is BY FAR the cheapest MIata. Maybe It's 'the worst', but I actually think NB2 looks better then NA and NC1, while beeing much cheaper. At least in Poland.
This car is the best way to get into great driving experience in sports cars, because what else can you get for this money... Hyundai Coupe? No contest here.
And yes, i've been through that - I have NB2 ;)
The 2.5 swap in NC is something for sure. If you're doing the swap, you'll probably do a header and a tune; that's the ticket. Very responsive and rev happy, with OE fit up and parts availability
Enjoying the car at 4/10th is a wildly underrated treat…..btw
Currently prepping a K24 git a my 91 Miata.
Got to chase around an S2000 this morning before work in the E30! Dropped it off for new tires which are absurdly hard to find in the original 14in. size. I had to go with a sketchy Turkish brand called Petlas lol.
I am really intrigued by those tyres being the only option. Where are you from and what tyre size does the E30 have on the 14 inch wheels ?
@@horatiul117 195/65R14.
Only others were Michelin and they were $380 a piece.
Dang. If you were willing to go down a size to 195 60 r14 there are a few more options. Like there's Falken Azenis in that size
Dang again. Those Petlas seem to be the only ones readily available in the whole Eastern Europe, I found sone Nexens and Khumos on some obscure sites, but that’s about it. Tough luck, I guess, get those and enjoy the car, or go a size down and enjoy the car. I had to buy coolant hoses and a belt tensioner for my 190E from some obsucre manufacturers because I did not find any quality spares in the whole country.
@@horatiul117 oh sorry I thought you might be US based.
Hyphen makes a good point about the democratization of information, via The Interwebs, that was much less 15 years ago.
What Jason failed to note were two important things. 1, the quality of 15 year old sports cars is overall much higher than it was in 2005 and the Gen X market represented much fewer buyers than the late Gen X/Millennial market does today.
ND Carplay can be hacked to enable the touchscreen to always work.
Having had a 13 Club Spec and an 18 Fiata Abarth I would have gone with the NC.
Transmission in the NC is not a weakpoint, unlike the ND. The NC transmission does not like to be hurried. Hardshifts from 1st to 2nd fail hard, but its not bad. ND feels better, but can flex under hard driving. Interior on the ND is better. Fiata has a better suspension as Jason points out in a review he posted on his channel. The motor in the Fiata is kinda meh. Sounds great with the ugpraded exhaust, but would take an NC engine.
Also not a fan of the hill start assist on the Fiata/ND. It is a pain on the Fiata since it has no torque from a start. Only used stability control in the rain. In regular driving on the Fiata I found it would kick in whenever I wanted to have fun. Then remember to have to turn it off since it turns on everytime the car starts. Steering feel is better in the NC, far far better. Looks? Loved my abarth, white with matte black hood/deck lid. Added the red mirrors and front spoiler. The NC club spec was, ok.
This episode makes me wonder how real the top gear and social media effect is on the car market. Does showing off these odd edge case cars make them more popular and more valuable now?
Thanks but no thanks for the episode...the value of my NB now dropped immensely, the plan for a NC1 I was planning to upgrade it with, is scrapped and the prices of NC2, which I now had to search for, because it is what I should really want, skyrocketed :D
Loved my RF
You guys should give one of the lfx (GM) V6 swapped miata...
Kind of shocked that a "know a lot" JC has never seen Dr. Strangelove.
In a effort to validate my car, do you think a ND2 with springs, sways, stickier tires and a louder exhaust would significantly improve the experience?
Short answer: yes. But i'd personally go tires, sways, springs, exhaust--in that order. Or just call up the guys at Goodwin Racing. They're very good at suggesting parts for your specific goals.
Fellow ND2 owner here, I've heard just sways do a lot to help the cars, not sure about '22 and up with KPC though.
100 percent yes. Also seconding Goodwin racing. Get their race exhaust and their suspension package that includes the koni yellows. Now the car is a weapon.
Have either of you guys driven an ND Club with the Bilsteins? I'm curious if they help with the floppiness.
I haven't driven one but everyone always whinges about the Bilsteins. I think the problem may be that pretty much all Miatas are undersprung, so upgrading the shocks doesn't really fix the issue