Wanted to stop by and slap an addendum of sorts for the audience, but first things first, thank you, @SynodicScribe, for the shoutout! I appreciate your taking the time to publish this work and start these critical conversations. I want people to know that 1.0 was never removed from the canon. People who weren't there might not know the story details, and that's fine. It shouldn't be expected. But to say it doesn't matter is ignoring far too much in the current story directly derived from the 1.0 plot and elements. There are so many references to details from the original game and entire questlines that act as closures for those stories; it's the only reason I mentioned to the OP about the potential retcon because up until last Tuesday, it was known that Louisoix was the source of the Marks. I'm looking forward to seeing how Thalia (potential name of the last instance following their Three Graces naming convention) will allow both the idea the Twelve made the Marks that got confused for objects of worship and how Louisoix made them. If they allowed a mention of Louisoix in the concluding quest arc, it'd tidy it up, and we won't have to consider it retcon. Because additional information is still deemed a retcon (additive retcons are better for long-term narrative, the MMO nature of the game means they have to change things over time), however, they do it so well with many things that I prefer that over omitting past context and details entirely. That's mainly from my personal narrative criticism; I want them to remember Louisoix's significant contribution to the power of the Twelve in the first place. They've yet to mention it, making me hopeful for an excellent conclusion that will bring it up, but for now, it's up in the air. Excluding the NieR alliance raid since that's a different narrative method, the narrative team tends to finish off the alliance raids in neat packages that answer all our questions, usually before the next expansion. I don't want to talk about dynamis here because it'll make the comment longer 😂. TL;DR: many people from 1.0 legacy + anyone who read up on the quest Living on a Prayer knew Louisoix mentions himself as the architect of the Marks. Many of us in the lore community would like to see them connect it somehow with the eternal stone concept mentioned after the raid. Add: Be nice, it's okay to disagree over lore topics, but we need to do better with the nature of the discussion, some of you here trying to suggest you know better are not being mindful of your words, and that's not okay.
The thing that gets me is the fact that even this addendum completely obviates admitting to any potential comprehension errors regarding the 1.0 quest script, it just jumps to assuming that Louisoix is being, I don't know, 'written out' despite the fact that his plot thread has been settled for a really, really long time and the spirit of it was carried on by the twins - and it has been referenced MANY times since, even within the Myths of the Realm. The fact of the matter is, the script of Living on a Prayer does not mention Louisoix as 'the architect' of the stones - let alone their source, but as the one who 'manifested' them for the public's purpose as icons of faith to be used to halt Dalamud, which is a very clear difference. 'Manifesting' in this context could mean unearthing, reinscribing, or plain and simple relocating them from sites unseen in 1.0 - not necessarily 'creating', which would not be mutually exclusive to the other meanings if there was anything supporting it, which I believe is quite the opposite. And if this wasn't enough, then I have one obscure tidbit to offer as a counterpoint to the idea that Louisoix created the stones: If he created them, then why on earth was Thaliak's stone found as a prominent piece of 'Xande's Tomb' in 1.0? And it's not like Louie would have picked some important rock to tag himself, because as far as 1.0's content was concerned, Allag had an early history of worship towards the Twelve - it would make sense that they'd have such a fixture marking the site of (what we can assume was actually) the Crystal Tower. While it's possible and ideal that they might tie things in for Thalia, like the tradition of archons and Louisoix's overall contribution, he wasn't the end-all-be-all either and he has been celebrated more than once and in many places across the game's history, whereas others of his caliber who had dealings with the Twelve have been left unremarked - is that a better or worse omission? Like, Louie wasn't behind the Lambs of Dalamud giving Menphina a dog, and he wasn't behind Halone's warrior-goddess makeover, why is it considered a grievous omission to let his story thread rest? I don't know, I'm overall disappointed in the execution of this video culminating with an idea that isn't actually all that air-tight being passed off as a fact, and not a possible point of discussion; it comes off as a misuse of platform, and that's not getting into the 'shame on the writers' overtone. Yeah, the writers aren't godlike or infallible, but this ain't it either chief.
@@acedianPianist, what gets me about your comment is that you took the time to assume that I had any potential comprehension errors with the 1.0 script. The cutscene exists and is accessible (I even went to go find it before I said anything). Suppose we want to defend English ambiguity as a reason why these two events don't add up. In that case, the entire game is at fault for being inconsistent simply because it doesn't speak plainly and relies on older linguistic conventions that get misconstrued way too often.* But that was not my intent initially with what I aimed to point out. Simply that there was an origin already provided for the Marks of the Twelve, and with the statement made in the raid content, the previous origin point is no longer the case. I'm trying to avoid unraveling the meaning of English here because there have been language barrier situations in the past. They stated one thing, and now they're saying something else, and I'd like to see them bridge it. And it's okay to acknowledge they make these mishaps without hating the game or the story and to find it an interesting point of the narrative consumer experience. What encouraged me to reply was your statement that Synodic is misusing his platform. That is somewhat disrespectful to say. This creator puts in an insane amount of work, hours, and dedication to making sure what he's creating appeals to the lore enthusiasts in the community. Because he's choosing to point out a potential retcon doesn't diminish his effort to make the content in the first place. We can disagree about lore topics, but I point out once more we need to do this without putting people's efforts down. He wasn't even shaming the writers. The point was to break the illusion that they're perfect in their work. This is helpful in any form of narrative criticism. If you disliked it that hard, you could have just clicked off the video. But putting Synodic down for his work is not okay. *ADD: It turns out Louisoix's phrasing is different in the other languages, so there is a chance the 1.0 English localization is not as accessible as it could be in expressing what he meant. German dialogue presents him as finding the sacred locations instead.
@@the_essalim Now, that about the German version is a somewhat frustrating realization. Hunting down every (significant) story beat in each language over the last decade & change is a bit of an exhausting thought. 😔💤 Good thing I'm in bed, I suppose.
@@FrazzleCat oh yeah, I let Anonymoose handle the "panslations" because it's beyond my ken to access the scripts and then do so for all four languages 😂 but he was the first one to cue me into the possibility of English dropping context more than once and looking for fuller meaning in observing all the dialogue out there, it's fascinating stuff
I would note that Louisoix doesn't say he created the stones, he says that he "manifested the divine symbols" at places where "they lie in slumber". This could mean that the stones were already there and imbued with the 12's aether, and that Louisoix could have just tapped in to that in creating the symbols.
Zodiark didn't suppress dynamis on the star, he stopped the song of oblivion from reaching the star by preventing the ethereal currents going stagnant. Zodiark is all about darkness and by extension is about astral, active, diverse and changing things. He effectively shielded the star by keeping is celestial aether currents active.
My interpretation by going through the MSQ for the first time was: .Celestial aether = magical ozone .Song of Oblivion = evil UV light that turns people into monster .Zodiark = stabilizer of magical ozone so that evil UV light doesn’t get through.
Going off the dialogue you showed, you could argue that he didn't make the stones, just carved into them. He does just say the symbols were his own doing and the stones were ancient, so likely there before him if he is saying that.
For the retcon, the gods said the stones would always exist regardless of shape or form. I didn't quite think of the stones being indestructible, but thought what if the stones did get destroyed or burried/lost, which made me come to the conclusion that they'll somehow appear one way or another. Louisoix's creation of these stones might just be one of these occurances, and there's some fated force that always brings out the emergence of these stones if a prior one is gone. As for the Twelve's goals, It might just be the same as Hydaelyn. They've shepherd mankind and guided them, and feel like they've finally reached a point where they're no longer needed. So they challenge mankind to see if they're strong and worthy enough so that they can retire for a bit
I think you are into something. It's hard for me to believe the writers forgot about Louisoix being the creator of those stones when they had him in mind on the previous raid when they mentioned him and his summoning.
or that there is more to the stones perhaps they are conduates for dynamas and are not persevable to us and louisoix just happened to build "physical" markers overthese locations
Where they're no longer needed, lol what have the twelve been doing - at all, for anyone, anywhere at any time - that needs to be removed now? Like, it seems like without the twelve, people would just stop travelling to rocks on the side of the road to pray. If they didn't show up this patch, I wouldn't even believe they were real beings.
@@ubiwrongcomeatme3452 Simple, the people believed they existed. The fact that much of society on Hydaelyn, post Etheirys Sundering, developed the way it did stems from the people needing a religious icon or divine idle. Which the Twelve evidently provided at the start of the star's worship of them. Now we know that the Twelve VALIDATE a lot of what all these people have wrought (heroes and villains) and suffered. And it all served a unifying purpose; preparing against The Final Days. Whether that's good or bad can only be decided now that the dust has settled, and extinction has been averted.
Zodiark's purpose wasn't to suppress all Dynamis, just the external waves of Despair radiating from the Meteia. The people's Dynamis, Venat clearly assumed, would be used to help people create anchors for HOPE, to push on against adversity. The problem with Zodiark wasn't that the Ancients relied on him. It was that they assumed he could actively change their fate. The Twelve NEVER PROMISED SUCH A THING. That was a big assumption to make to believe that Dynamis isn't the foundation of Limit Breaks. Limit Breaks are manifestations of Desperation and Faith. Aether may be shaped by Dynamis in the case of the Twelve, but it is foolhardy to assume the gathered Dynamis of the Hero Shards didn't manifest to empower Elidibus/WoL. There's also the lore bit about the ETERNAL BOND questline (The Ties that Bind) revolving around these stones in a ritual FAR OLDER than 1.0. So if it's a retcon, it happened far earlier than just 6.3: [ Claribel regales you with an ancient tale of two souls who wandered Eorzea in search of answers from the Twelve, from which the next tradition you and your partner must observe originates. To wit, you and your partner must embark upon a pilgrimage to the marks of the Twelve, where together you must /pray to receive their blessings. Begin by retracing the steps of the original pilgrims and /pray at the marks of the Matron, the Builder, and the Keeper in the Twelveswood. ]
@@val7885 Yep. the name gets a bigger meaning when considered in that context: Limit Break, aka, breaking past your limits. Whilst you could probably do that with Aether, I believe that Limit Breaks is the WoL building up Dynamis throughout a fight subconsciously and using it to empower their aether at a critical juncture.
@@val7885 Not to mention earlier on in the MSQ of Endwalker, when Nidhana tells us about Akasha(which we later find out is essentially Dynamis) she brings up "breaking our limits" in battle as an example of it
This is honestly just them trying to get around Pleroma. They introduced so many concepts this expansion that introducing a third actual conceptual force of nature would just be baffling to the playerbase. Dynamis in all of its sense only means "the ability to"or "the potential". It has no further meaning. The fact that anybody would attribute limit breaks to it is absolutely nonsensical. Potentiality does not guarantee execution. The only thing that does is Energeia, or energy, strength, willpower. I am actually glad they are going back over this and fixing this, because it was a fucking atrocity to me to introduce Akasha and then all of a sudden consolidate it down to Dynamis.
If I might posit a theory? The Twelve seem to imply that they do indeed have subtle ways of guiding us about, even if it is so ephemeral and insignificant. Did Rhalgar not after all guide those who would become the Ala Mhigans after the sixth umbral calamity? Given that Archon Luisouix also bore Tupsimati, a tool for channeling vast amounts of aether bearing Thaliak's signet, it wouldn't be out of the question for the twelve to subtly steer him to choose the stones they use for storing information as these anchor points of faith?
Yeah, the line says "graven upon ancient stone", the rocks were already there. That he happened to put the symbols on them speaks of divine providence.
@@AnchorJG I would suggest there's a slight inconsistency in their attitude towards those events and that theory being true, however - they didn't, and don't really, seem to want our worship, those stones were not created for that purpose, Louisiox co-opted them for that. I would suggest it more likely that he through his own skill found them on his own. That being said, I get the vibe something is a little bit wrong with the 12 and we're actually there to help them be that something they're all judging us in regards to, or just oschon, I dunno... Either way, we'll find out in something like 5 months I guess!
It could be both. The sites have always existed, but Louisoux carved the symbols to bring attention to them. Like, Halone's symbol is in the cave of her saint you called out in a previous video. That story is older than the 6 or 7 years since Louisoux would have made the carving. And the gods CAN influence people. Deryk is almost definitely a god, and he gave that whole speech to the Lamb guy. Putting an idea in Louisoux's head that lines up with their existing doctrine isn't really a big influence or removal of his free will.
That is exactly what happened, Louisoix stated he merely carved the symbols into the stones. The stones themselves, as mentioned in Ties That Bind, existed far before 1.0 or Louisoix
There is a way for it not to be a retcon (the 12 guided Louisioux to use those specific stones, which is something he'd likely leave out if he felt they wanted it secret, in preparation for their power being used come the 7th calamity and beyond. It's a bit of a reach though, so hopefully it'll come up one way or another. As for the goals of the 12, one thing I feel is important is that Halone kept reiterating "Mankind's faith belongs to mankind," alongside a continuing theme of Endwalker and this raid series that while certain ways of worship are bad/incorrect, the act of worship itself isn't inherently evil. It makes me think that the actual people making up the 12 want to step down in some fashion. And by losing to a "God-slayer" like the warrior of Light, they're creating a disconnect between themselves and the beings worshiped by Eorzea. Because the continued existance of the 12-that-are-worshiped is mankind's decision, not theirs; they don't feel they have the right to simply say "You don't need us anymore, we're leaving" or something.
Agreed, a statement that Louisioux was guided by his own nation's patron deity would be a simple way to resolve this lore from being a disconnected retcon.
…Except Rhalgr and Byregot outright said they had nothing to do with Louisoix’s attempt at summoning them. So that’s unlikely. They seem to be against divine intervention in general, from what I understand.
I didn't think the game flat out said The Watcher was the 13th, just that the explanation sounded like The Watcher. It could be another being altogether or Us ourselves, since we keep being recognized as part of Azem. As for the stones I always took it as Louisioux carving the stones, but the stones themselves were already imbued with some kind of Godly Aether. As for what the 12 have in store, I honestly don't know. They haven't given us a lot to go on about that so far. I thought it was interesting that they wanted to come along with us to get the information we needed. It's hard to tell if they truly mean well or if it's something that will blow up in our faces and we end up having to get rid of them somehow.
Same here, the characters are only assuming that the watcher is the unnamed 13th. I bet it’s the little monkey who doesn’t speak ne appears out of nowhere 😊 he is following us to see what we are capable of or something and just as he’s unnamed he doesn’t speak, unlike the other 12 in their pet disguises whom only tagged along to see the world.
Yeah same. I think it would be extremely weird for the watcher to be one of the twelve when he clearly has no combat skills since he didn’t dare to fight Zenos or fandaniel on the moon. Always would be extremely weird for us to go on the moon and the watcher be like “ throw em hands “ 😂
Yeah, I took it as just speculation among the people there that The Watcher was the 13th. I imagine one of the first things we'll be doing in 6.5 is going to talk to The Watcher, and at that point it'll be confirmed or not.
@@SomeCallMeAku Yeah, would be extremely weird for the watcher to be as powerful as one of the twelve and not attempt to fight Fandaniel, Zenos and even globez (remember we see globez killing a figure on the moon and it had to be before he consume the zodiark shard)
@@Tom-Pendragon The one on the moon is a Creation, as I recall, so the one in the raid would be the real deal. That said, I've been playing with the idea that the final pillar to open will be our Azem, though I don't know how that'd be possible since Azem was sundered, and this group appears to have been spared the sundering by being placed in a pocket dimension ala Emet, et al.
Update : Like someone said in one of the comments under mine, Lousoix carved the stones, he didn't say he created them, so it seems there is no retcon at all ? My guess for the "retcon" is that since 1.0 doesn't exist anymore, if the informations from 1.0 are not in 2.0 or after, they don't have to take them into account. The writers can pick and choose what to take and what to change. Since it appears only in 2 lines of dialogue in a game that doesn't exist anymore and not even in the encyclopedia. And since they really want to forgot 1.0 that would make sense.
It really doesn’t change the practicality of events that are canon either: those who would become the Scions go to pray to the Twelve at their markings across Eorzea to bring for primals in their image
I don't think anyone in the writing team wants to forget 1.0 since most ARR character backgrounds, significant and insignificant past events of both relevant and less relevant characters, physical status of locations, and obviously the final moments of 1.0 (but that is ironically the tiniest link here) all reflect themselves in today's Eorzea and are all hugely intertwined and strongly present in ARR. There have been way stupider and more insignificant details about some random 1.0 event or plot, compared to "Louisoux made the stones", that still carried over. So I don't believe this was deliberate.
@@raisylvaine8398 This is a very important point. These retcons don't actually change anything about the functionality of the lore we've seen previously, it simply adds a new context to it. That's pretty generally understood to be the "most acceptable" way to do a retcon
It's possible Louisoix created the marks in those locations because he knew they had greater power or Althyk took advantage of them after the calamity to store this information. That's just a theory to explain the apparent retcon that doesn't have anything confirming or denying it, though.
I actually went and watched the cutscene and here's the thing, Louisoix didn't randomly choose the stones to carve the symbols. He chose these "ancient stones" and indicated that he believed they were located to where the Gods slumbered. So rather than a retcon, it actually contextualizes Louisoix's choice.
A thing I would like to point out, the idea that emotions (and prayers) of the people have changed beings before specifically with Ultima (Ivalice). Ultima was a being "summoned" from another dimension and people's fear caused them to eventually worship it, which is what changed it into the form we see during the raid as well as giving it a sense of self that it didn't have before. Though this information comes from both its real-life statue collectible and from its Triple Triad card. So while Dynamis is a series retcon, it was introduced as a catch all to explain moments like that. And to just throw this out I think the idea that all emotion energy must be Dynamis isn't completely right, Dynamis is an energy made from pure emotion but we've seen, as you've pointed out before, that emotions can influence aether so emotions can be apart of aether-related abilities and Limit Breaks, but not as pure Dynamis.
@@ritadgreat17 While Dynamis is most likely used in that instance, the problem is that technically everything we did in Ultima Thule was via Dynamis. Her domain does not work on the same rules or logic as everywhere else.
but limit breaks are Dynamis the Endsinger even says so when you fight her, is that already not true anymore?, I always thought it as "you believe in the one party member ability to pull off a miracle" and that joint faith allows them to break their limit in the form they see fit. Also I'm pretty sure Zodiark only suppressed Dynamis coming in not Dynamis already on the planet.
I would like to clarify I did *not* play 1.0, nor that I have the best memory, so I apologize in advance: as others have mentioned, it is "possible" that Louisoix didn't make the stones but rather mark them. In the screenshot with text from 1.0 (around 12:45) he says that he's responsible for the *symbols* that appeared, and he also said that these were locations where "they lie in slumber" (referencing the Twelve). Perhaps what he did was mark these powerful stones/places/locales since not everyone in Eorzea is as wise ( or sensitive to aether?) as he was to know where these places would be? In any case, great and informative video! Thank you for your work.
I was under the impression that all that Louisoix did was mark the stones; it does not stop the Twelve from having "created" them. Coincidence, or divine providence? The Twelve also imply that their places of power can change form and still fulfill their purpose... But I did note the potential discrepancy there as soon as they mentioned them.
12:26 If we are looking at the text as written, it would seem that Louisoix didn't make the stones, but rather engraved the symbols of the gods on the stones. Notice how he refers to the stone as ancient, but also says that he was the one to cause the symbols to manifest. He could have been guided to the stones to mark them or did so himself when he found one of the stones and marked it just because. This remains consistent with both pieces of lore to have and have Louisoix have a greater connection to the Twelve. Then again, I may be wrong since I do remember that there was a line that mentioned the engravings on the stone. But that could just be because the gods now have that as an identifier for which stones did what.
I never played 1.0 and only got into FF14 in late ShB, but it would make sense to me that when building shrines to the Twelve, Louisoix would use artifacts generally associated with the Twelve. Although if the stones were already associated with the Twelve long before Louisoix came along, it sorta begs the question of why shrines hadn't already been built around them long ago. The faithful would have long since been making pilgrimages to such relics and someone would have gotten the idea to build shrines or even whole temples around them.
I was thinking the same, both new and old lore aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, who's to say it wasn't Althyk guiding Louisoix to 'discover' the stones.
1) The Endsinger literally says "Dynamis?" after we use tank LB3 against her. This would seem to indicate that Limit Breaks involve the usage of Dynamis 2) My understanding is that many, many things from 1.0 lore have been retconned. I view 1.0 lore as a pool of ideas that may or may not be valid until these things are brought up again in post-2.0 lore. 3) Louisoux may have "created" the stones of the 12 simply by finding points where aether seemed to resonate in response to prayer toward each of the individual gods, and marked their locations by inscribing the markings. In that sense he would have simply identified or located them.
Doesn't the Endsinger call out the limit break as dynamis though? I don't think it necessarily NEEDS a lot of people to use it, just a strong force of emotion. They basically canonized shounen moments. Could always be wrong, but that's how I saw it.
Pretty sure in the dialogue, they suspected that the watcher was the 13th but it was never “confirmed.” I personally think Deryk is the 13th. His dialogue about disappearing and him being more traveled than all of us. I’d wager he’s “Eorzea.”
Nah, the Watcher being the 13th makes more sense if you read the official sidestory called "A Friendship of Record" in Tales of the Dawn on the Lodestone website. It details Venat's closest friend who was always with her even since before she was Azem and then goes on to explain Venat as Hydaelyn modelled the watcher after that same person. Since The Twelve are heavily rumoured to be the Twelve people in the cutscene in ShB where you first learn about Venat then it lends to the idea of the gods all being her close collaborators and friends, hence the 13th being The Watcher lines up pretty well. It's not just because of speculation from our party. Deryk feels like he's written to be a red herring. Anyhow, those sidestories always contain lots of lore and worldbuilding. They actually talked about Azem's volcano adventures in the ShB ones years before EW introduced it in the MSQ lol Recommended reads.
If Deryk is a red herring, they're selling it real hard given his comments about non-intervention, having to go his own way real soon, the phrasing of how he said that 'everything would be revealed,' and those long camera cuts when things about the 13th god are being discussed.
It could be that The Twelve went to Louisoix in his dream to carve those markings in those specific stones, much like Feo Ul went to The Source to pass messages in people’s dreams. That could be a possible theory.
The theory I have is simular to that. The gods mention that the stones have taken many forms over the years, but like them their inherit function is the same. I believe in the distant past the stones were used as a site of worship, but leading up to the Calamity they were faded and sorta left abandoned. Louisoix likely learned or knew of their history and restored the marks, believing doing so with those particular stones would make the connections for his summoning more potent.
The marriage quest "The Ties that Bind" straight up says that the marks of the twelve existed before 1.0's story. Quote, "In a time long ago, the people of Eorzea faced a crisis no less dire than the fall of Dalamud... Yet rather than set aside their disputes and rebuild from the ashes, they succumbed to their baser instincts and squabbled amongst themselves. In the aftermath of that calamity, the land slipped further into chaos... Two souls, united in purpose, rose above their brethren, and together they sought out the marks of the Twelve to entreat each deity for an answer to the question: what must mankind do to survive? "
I am fairly sure the Watcher on the Moon wasnt CONFIRMED to be the unnamed 13th, but ASSUMED to be with us going to the moon to question him in the next raid quest chain
this. my theory is that deryk is the unnamed 13th, as he's been suspicious from the start - like where'd he come from, how did he know of the 12's sanctum -- and that monkey he saved, i suspect is also one of the 12
@@Leavannah That's what I assume too, especially since his constant mentioning of traveling is probably meant to throw us off into believing "Oh clearly he's Oschon the Traveler" but one thing he said at Halone's stone really made me curious... he mentiones he "does not want to influence peoples decisions" and that "everyone should be allowed to do what they themselves want". Something that would really befit someone who's supposed to be WATCHING, not taking action. You know? Like he has been? All Deryk has done so far was travel with and watch us.
My thinking as to the end goal of the Twelve is here is my thoughts. The Twelve might be trying to help the WoL learn about what happened both immediately after the Sundering and both the First Astral Era and Second Astral Era. I think of it as Hydealyn's final directive to the Twelve so the WoL can be prepared for any new threat maybe even unknown enemies in the future to fill the void left by the Ascians.
I don’t know if this was mentioned in a previous video, but I do think the 12 are supposed to be juxtaposed with the convocation. I had theorized that the 12 were Venats version of the convocation with her in the place of Azem and Nald and Thal having originally being two beings. This New Convocation is what I felt was her party that helped her summon and create Hydaelyn. I think the ending of this story will have something to do with that point. Though now with the introduction of the Watcher, I feel Azem is now supposed to be represented by Oschon.
Not only that but there's something very interesting about Althyk and Nymeia The creatures you fight leading up to them, especially the behemoth, are creatures that *you* helped create as concepts in a quest chain in Elpis Nymeia even says the exact line to Althyk that a female ancient says to a male ancient (their names escape me atm) It's all but certain they're one and the same, and if they are Venat's twelve followers then they must've gotten recruited after the events of elpis
Tbh, I think the change with Luisvar, intentional or not, is is a fine retcon. I don't agree that he has little lore considering he's impact to 1.0 and even ARR with it's raid storyline. His name isn't forgotten to this day. They could've avoided it, sure, but I personally find this better. Luisvar creating these stones brings up too many questions. I hardly believe there were no rally points for worship of the Twelve before he created these with Gods being a thing for years before he was even born.
It's not a retcon, the stones have existed before 1.0. The Twelve mention that the stones will simply turn back up later in some form if they're lost or destroyed.
When I learned of this retcon, I did wonder if it was because it was just some of the 1.0 lore they didn't need or want anymore. However, I don't think it is a retcon at all when going over the info. The stones are ancient they have been in those locations for a long time because Althyk made them. Years later Louisoix came and as he says craved the symbols into them. Both Althyk and Louisoix are both responsible for the stones. One for the stones creation and the other for the symbols placed on them.
I find that there's a much more interesting line about those marks that you didn't touch on. Specifically, Halone says that the stones' purpose remains eternal no matter their shape and location. That REALLY stood out to me when making my lore review for this content. To me that sounds like those things are more than just rocks with inscriptions. They're something much weirder, and possibly in some way self-intelligent and self-acting to fulfill their purpose. It would explain why the mark of Byregot for example moved from the now-inaccessible West Shroud despite REALLY not looking very mobile; it itself moved from its inaccessible previous location to its new one, because it'd be doing no good in an abandoned wilderness. But that angle also explains the Louisoix angle: it's not that he _made_ the Marks and they didn't exist before, but rather that he made these stones _into_ the Marks, perhaps-intentionally turning them into these immortal monuments. They changed shape and location at Louisoix's behest and hand, but in an abstract sense were not created by him.
I personally feel like 1.0 information isnt immune from being transformed because while yes, it is the foundation for ARR, they probably have things in there that doesn't line up with their current view of the story of the world anymore since it's quite old and probably wasnt made to go the route it has in the last decade. So it's probably an intentional overwrite, though it could also be a fake out and we'll get some new Louisiox lore in the final part of the series. Because I think leaving him out of a story based around The Twelve would be a little confusing.
I have a theory for the retcon mentioned in this video: Louisoix only carved the symbols upon the stones. The stones themselves already existed and held the power of the gods, and Louisoix found these places of power and turned them into places of worship to focus the summoning. I don't have screenshots to back it up and admit to having terrible memory, but I think I recall some dialogue during the raid quests of the gods being amused that we mortals made the stones they created into objects and places of worship. This could be referring to Louisoix's action without specifically naming him. My theory on what the gods want? Retirement. The Ascians are gone and cannot create more cataclysmic rejoinings. The gods no longer need to guide mortals through an apocalypse, as Rhalgr guided survivors of the Calamity of Water to Ala Mhigo with his famous meteor. But first they want to test that we are strong enough to inherit the world from them.
There is one side story featuring who the watcher supposedly was modeled after that's interesting. It implies that something of the original ancient is in there
6:55 i believe you are missing a point here: many times while we talk and travel with the gods, Menphina say that mankind can use the faith as they want. One of Halone's function is to inspire constancy, if man seeks constancy in war, they will have it by her name. Constancy is a generic term and can be applied anywhere.
Was it confirmed ? I thought the watcher was a theory by Krille, and it’s especially weird since he exists on all another shards, and he lost to somehow prepowered Globez.
This might go against the part of your video about a red mage not knowing what a monk's Limit Break is... Was leveling an alt job via Command Missions the other day and noticed that if you activate LB, the entire party stops their actions and casts it together. That got me thinking that when with other players, what canonically happens is that everyone actually casts the LB together as a party, but due to gameplay reasons we don't see it happen in game, just the job specific animations for gameplay effect. It would also make sense why the LB bar is shared, why the damage is fixed and not affected by buffs/debuffs, and that it can also be using dynamis with there being multiple people involved. Also would like to add, what I got from the end of the raid story in 6.3 was that they are assuming The Watcher as the 13th unnamed deity, but I don't think it'll be that straight forward. I think we'll find out from The Watcher that he was just a creation of Hydaelyn, as he has already said, to watch over Zodiark specifically. Deryk will show himself to be the 13th unnamed, is around now to observe how Eitherys and the deities are coping post-Hydaelyn, and will go away again once he's sure everything is well. The deities I suspect are Venat's inner circle that sacrificed themselves in summoning Hydaelyn with Venat as the heart and form to counter Zodiark, and have been and will continue to be on Eitherys to watch over the sundered men. Anyway, that's just what I think. Can't wait for 6.5 to get the answers. ✌🏼
I'm more enclined to say that the twelve were the followers of Venat before the sundering. We have Nymeia litterally saying the same exact line an npc said in Elpis. And they both talked about their brother: Nymeia/Maira: _"Oh, Althyk/Alkaios, must you always be so formal? Although he has trouble expressing it, I assure you, my brother is absolutely giddy with joy."_ Knowing the writers I don't think this is pure coincidence, it's too much blatant to be one. Venat must have done something with their souls or memories. Like we did with future G'raha's, she maybe turned their ether into crystals before the sundering and then incorporated them into new bodies she created... but that's just a theory.
Hello Scibe, I'm not too familiar with the lore of 1.x, but having heard the conundrum regarding the etched stones of the twelve, I have a question. Did Louisoix mine these stones himself and then etch the symbols on? Here're my thoughts. Louisoix was an accomplished Sharlayan scholar who likely dabbled in many magic based studies. Such an experienced and powerful mage could have come across these stones, noticed that there was something about them that stood out from the rest, and then carved symbols onto them keeping in mind the various heavens that the twelve reside. Also, Menphina's stone is part of a stack, while Llymlaen's and Nald'thal's are part of statues. Nald'thal's statue in particular would be an easy choice for symbol carving, but what of the rest? Were the requirements to just be "ancient stone" then any sufficiently old boulder in a given area would suffice. Plus, if it were about gathering faith, then carving the symbols at an already existing place of worship would serve its purpose. While it is equally likely that this is an example of a retcon, I'm of the mind that both 1.x lore and 6.3 lore are true. I will claim here that I am no scholar of ffxiv lore, so I hope I don't sound like an ignorant fool. But I do enjoy your videos and find myself learning more with every video you post. Thank you for reading.
Thank you for watching! Myself and a few of the other lore channels have been discussing the lore changes presented by 6.3 and we've come to the conclusion that these things are indeed contradictions to the established lore. Most of us have all be experiencing FFXIV lore since 1.0 so we understand when it's not as clear to everyone else (especially new players), but that's why I'm happy to make these videos and open these discussions! Only time will tell what's what, and I'm eager to see what comes next alongside you and everyone else.
Awesome video dude ^^ I kind of thought that Louisoix found the rocks were elementally aligned and thought "you know what, those would be perfect to carve the symbols of the Twelve for the battle ahead" or something like that. This raid series has been an absolute blast and I'm curious (and maybe a little bit scared) how it will end. With the Twelve testing mortals through battle and the Watchers purpose seemingly fulfilled I can't help but feel like they'll all disappear completely once the raid is done.
I theorize that both statements could be correct. Louisoix could have created those places of worship through Althyk's influence, guidance or even as an avatar of the god himself. After all,Louisoix was able to channel Althyk's dimensional powers in particular to save the original Warriors of Light. A connection between grandpa and grandpa god, isn't too farfetched.
You didn't pay close enough attention to Louisoix's dialogue. He didn't make the stones - he chose ancient stones because he believed they were connected to the Twelve. Furthermore, unless it's in a side dialogue, Atythk never mentions carving the symbols on the stones. Only mentions the stones themselves having existed for a long time, scattered over Eorzea and it is only in recent times that they are being used as objects of prayer. So the lore actually compliments each other - The ancient stones scattered throughout Eorzea held information about the Twelve. Louisoix discovered somehow that these ancient stones were connected to the Twelve and carved their symbols upon them. I think you got confused because the stones are referred to as the marks of the Twelve by Snoegeim - which is their current name from Eorzeans.
If Limit Breaks aren't Dynamis this would also be a retcon because in the Endsinger fight when you have to use a Tank LB3 she says "Dynamis?" as if surprised that we can use it.
My theory to reconcile the stones lore is that while the stones existed already, they were unmarked and known only to a select few before Louisiox marked them (or somehow otherwise restored them) for the reasons he stated previously.
Many of the locations Louisoux engraved symbols on don't exist in 2.0: Nophica, Thaliak, Byregot, Halone, and Menphina were all in different locations in 1.0. I think it's more likely that Louisoux engraved symbols where he didn't have knowledge of their location or easy access to them, and used existing ones where he could, (like Nald and Thal's in the Ul'dah, or the one at sandgate, or in the Limsa docks)
Hate to be that guy, but the stones being created by Louisoix was retconned long ago, as far back as 2015. I don't expect everyone to know this however, as in order to access this lore, you need to do the most arduous task in any MMO ever... *Get married.* Yes the way I word that is a joke, but I am dead serious about getting married. There is a quest that leads up to actually arranging the wedding called "The Ties That Bind." In it, you make a ring for your lover using two of the Flawless Band items, one for each of you- and then you travel with them to the different points of The Twelve. It's even said in this quest that the reason you're doing this in the first place, is because of a tradition that dates very far back- as far back as the Second Umbral Era if memory serves me right. To sum up the story of the quest as best I can- (It's been about a year since I've played it, apologies,) the quest is about following in two people's footsteps so you can go on the same journey they did, and learn about it in the process. At each stone, they ask the Twelve what the meaning of life is, and each one tells them that they cannot answer that. At the end of the journey, when they reach the twelfth one, they essentially say that they can't answer the question of "what is the reason of life?" but that the two found that meaning in themselves. It's a very charming little quest that understandably, not many people will ever really play. But yeah, this was retconned, just MUCH earlier. The alliance raid just brought it to more people's attention.
I agree. It might not be a mistake or a retcon and I can think of a few ways that make sense for what we knew to coexist with what we know now. Plus, people forget that in-game sources can be inaccurate intentionally. Characters can lie, books can lie. That whole thing
See also Minfilia and Urianger explaining Primals, what they are, and how they work in ARR, and how we later discovered that these characters speaking so authoritatively...didn't actually know what they were talking about and had been working based on guesses.
@@tophergerkey that's a perfect example of what I mean, without proper context it might seem like a retcon when infact it's just the characters having a limited or incomplete idea of things. lore directly tied to louisoix seems a little too obvious to overlook there has to be more to the story. or maybe i'm wrong
i really enjoyed this! thank you for the super chilled lore videos.. i can just sit back and listen.. your so much more relaxing and informative to listen to than audible xDD
8:14-8:50 Loving the discussion, though I am somewhat confused. I don't understand where you're coming from on this point. The point of us, as players, not being able to use Dynamis in our jobs and everywhere else. My reasons for being confused are as follows: 1. Ultima-Thule was able to be immensly altered due to a single person's influence over Dynamis, i.e. Thancred making Ultima-Thule a physical place through his sacrifice, which the others built upon through their own command of Dynamis using their emotions when they sacrificed themselves. 2. In Elpis, when we learn about the Elpis flowers from Hermes for the first time, one of the player's choices to say was, "Well, I have been known to surpass my limits by force of will", or something very similar to that effect. 3. In our fight with the Endsinger, after we use our Tank Limit Break to survive the Endsinger's first massive attack, she exclaims, "Dynamis?" in response. Am I misunderstabding your point in this part of the video? If not, how do you reconcile the points I have made with what you now believe about the function of Dynamis?
Limit Breaks are heavily implied to use *both* Aether and Dynamis based on the lore all around them. He’s made a video talking about this in particular though the way I interpreted it was that: Aether left behind from us using our skills lingers in the air for a time. This is symbolized by the LB gauge filling during combat. That Aether then acts as fuel for the Attack or Spell as the person uses Dynamis to surpass their limits and guide that power into a specific form. He mentions in this video that others “couldn’t help with visualizing the form” but if people don’t use actions during the animation, you can see everyone do a little cheer when the LB is used.
Let's not forget that Elidibus, in his facade as Warrior of Light in the Seat of Sacrifice trial, also tried and failed to emulate our LB with his own aether-powered "Limit Break", which I remember it being stated (either during or after the trial) to be a failed imitation of the mortals' proper Limit Break.
I think in contrast they are the actual 12 ancients who cast/realized the concept of hydaelyn under Venat’s plan. I remain skeptical they are shades for two reasons: only the watcher is sundered and based on Deryk’s rather existential dialog I expect him to the created familiar of Oschon and a way for him to “cheat” their nonintervention rules.
12:33 The stones "manifested" in their locations by his hand, but that doesn't mean he made them. It could very well be that Louisoix was cooperating with the 12. That he took the marks and placed them where they are today. I'm also a little fuzzy on what "temporal representations" means in this context. Still it is more then a little retconish.
Cooperation with the Twelve could also go some way to explain Althyk’s symbol appearing in his spell to transport the Warriors of Light into the future.
@@dakotadoyle7573 not all time magic in the game is tied to Althyk, I think they just mean that Althyk specifically helped with the transportation of the WoLs because of his symbol being used in that moment. Not to mention that the Twelve clearly reappear to empower Louisoix into becoming Phoenix immediately after
Fun fact The Watcher is said to be Venat's closest one, who was there with her before she was even chosen to be Azem and so on. He's featured in one of the EW Lodestone sidestories as the main character for it. So the Thirteenth being the person closest to Hydaelyn makes a lot of sense for all this related to The Twelve.
Another interpretation for the stones could simply be that Althyk guided Louisoix to make the stones. This is in line with the fact the first part of the raid series states the gods are not allowed to directly intervene. So giving Louisoix insipiration to make these stones fulfills both statements.
i think we can probably think of Louisoix and the symbols of the Twelve as a double retcon.. to elaborate on what i mean, from a historical perspective, the lore of the Twelve was established before 1.0 launched and the concept of Hydaelyn as a deity didn't exist until 2.0 came around. back in 1.0 Hydaelyn was only the name of the planet. so the Twelve being created by Hydaelyn is already a retcon. Louisoix was introduced for the Seventh Umbral Calamity storyline, which itself was only devised after 1.0 launched for the purposes of remaking FFXIV. i don't really remember now but i think the marks of the twelve were indeed introduced around the time when Louisoix appeared, so lore-wise it is consistent with what he says. maybe to align what he says with 6.3, we can think of him manifesting the symbols as making them appear visible. that also makes more sense given that if he really wanted people to pray to them he wouldnt put some of them in such out of the way places.
As a 1.0 player, if this WAS a lie and was intentional, I'm certain they would have had additional dialogue for those of us who did the Living on a Prayer questline and learned from Louisoix directly that he carved the stones himself to try and help avert the coming Calamity of Dalamud. But given the fact that the story literally doesn't address it whatsoever, even for Legacy players, this is almost 100% either an unintentional mistake (highly unlikely given Banri Oda's continued involvement with the overall world lore) or a deliberate retcon.
I've had the feeling that the Twelve have been testing how far man has come via the battles. They started out with a false pretense to get us to engage with them in battle (using a pattern we would be familiar with: the world being in danger); and even when it was revealed, we continued to honor their request. Regardless of what we learn in the cutscenes to come for the final raid, we're still going to be fighting the final set of the Twelve. I've always had the impression that the Twelve had something to do with that council of the Ancients (the convocation, I believe? It seems to be a common theory as well). Granted, there's also the question of Deryk's true identity and that Opo-opo with him (some thinking he's Oschon, others thinking the Opo-opo is Oschon). I have my own guesses, but there really isn't enough information, with the exception of some foreshadowing that he might "disappear never to be seen again", for me to say anything with certainty (unlike with the Nier raids where I thought 2P was sketchy from the start). I'd go out on a limb and say that the Opo-opo is Oschon, who was perhaps wounded either by either a lack of faith (now that we know that's what gives the Twelve their form) or during the Final Days; and that Deryk might just sort of a part of Oschon projected/created to either find us (the Warrior of Light) and lead us to Omphalos since the Twelve technically, even in their animal forms, aren't supposed to communicate with anyone...nor have we passed Oschon's test to get a full audience with him (as we can't speak to those of the Twelve we have not yet met, and they won't speak to us). Maybe it's all to see how strong man has become, perhaps in part to having a patron deity being one of the Twelve and what their influence can do. The WoL tends to be the "representative" of humanity more often than not, after all. I'm sure there are a ton of holes in my theory, but it's really just a guess...plus something I think would be cool if it were true.
Honestly, the actions of the Twelve match those of a giddy child who's just met a long lost friend after they came out of a coma. Their actions very much match up with those who are wanting to *play* with people that can take it and want to share the whole truth, but that said truth requires some preparation and a strong will to endure it. If their gambit fails, then they got to play with the chosen of Hydaelin. If the plan succeeds, then their vigil no longer needs be a lonely one and they could potentially walk alongside mortals, knowing that we can handle it. It's quite difficult to say, though, and this is merely speculation.
Can't the retcon you mention about the stones just be that Althyk is working through Louisoux? Why else would he give Althyk so much trust when attempting to use his time magic on the warriors of light in Carteneau to save them? He probably had a deep connection to him. You shouldn't take the words of people as fact when creating theories, unless you can back up Louisoux's words. The same can be said about how the fundamental rules of aether, dynamis, elemental aspects, the lifestream, stars, the void and memories. Whatever Eorzea believes how these entities work, for example what is written in Sharlayan books or by their scholars, it will only be based on their understanding. If SE writers explain in future how some of these fundamental rules act in specific quests, and this contradicts to the common understanding, it is NOT retconning. It is not retconning, because it only means that the collective knowledge of Eorzea is incomplete and that they were wrong.
Actually, the thing about Louisoix making the stones might not be accurate. The text example that's provided mearly states that by his hand did the stones "manifest". This could be interpreted as him creating them, but it's more then likely just archaic prose to state that he brought them to Eorzea. The stones might already have existed, he just transported them.
Surprise surprise would be that Louisoix is somekind of Familiar/Avatar of the Watcher himself. Yes, he did the stones, like 10 thousand years ago shortly after the sundering under the orders of the Watcher in his previous incarnation. Like an Aether charged Gandalf of some sorts.
I think the reason the Watcher on the moon looks the way he does is because nobody knew he was there, much less what his purpose is. The Twelve, on the other hand, have had a much larger role in mortal culture. The Twelve may have originally looked like the Watcher until people started to agree on what they should look like. As for why they want us to fight them... If they were created to subtly teach humanity the traits needed to overcome the Endsinger then their purpose is fulfilled. Either they feel it's time to be released from their duty or they wish to have their shackles loosened a little so they can finally walk among mortals as more than tiny creatures.
It’s possible that the changes to the lore are intentional for two reasons: 1) because it helps anchor the twelve more firmly to the realm, showing that they were around for a exceedingly long time, And 2) because while we’ll honor 1.0 and the players who stuck with it, that story doesn’t really exist anymore. There have been a lot of changes to the lore since 1.0, with the most prominent being how the Echo works. So while I’m someone who never played 1.0, my mind can parse both stories being true by interpreting this as “the stones were there the whole time, but Lousoix brought them to everyone’s attention and established them as sites of worship”.
The 12 are either venats group from when they formed hydaelin, or they're creations with a soul made by venat that are supposed to represent her companions like with the watcher. There are dialogues in the game from an NPC in elpis that is literally the same as what comes out in the new raid. Maira is Nymeia
The game flat out telling us "That sounds like the watcher!" makes me suspicious. That is exactly the sort of hook they would normally let us theorycraft on for a patch cycle. Blurting that out seems... suspicious. Though it does add up. I had been telling people that the 12 were ancients for some time and this confirms it. I need to do more side quests in Elpis but I know I have met two of them already. I believe they were part of the MSQ but it may have been a side/blue quest. I wonder if the epigraph is their equivalent of the convocation's "job stones"? I was pretty sure the creation myths were largely bunk when I saw that allegedly Hydaelyn "created" Midgardsormr to guard Silvertear lake. I think the home of the gods including the Omphalos and their realms are the remnants of Elpis and the Hyperboreia. They live in the holodeck.
The two confirmed ones would be Nymeia (Maira) and Althyk (Alkaios) from the side story chain "Unleash the Beast". This is the quest where you assist those two with creating the behemoth and giving that apex creation, its apex ability "Meteor". This was hinted at in the raid by those mobs being the adds before you fight them. Nymeia and Maira also say the exact same line about the other about not being able to show their feelings correctly. Now, there is also Charmion and Sokles you meet as part of the touring elpis side quest. There is no confirmation, but I believe these two are Menphina and Thaliak based on Charmion dragging you around and worrying about the warrior of light in a loving / compassionate manner worrying about the density of their Aether. Sokles then creates a fruit juice for you to drink and is encouraging you to follow Charmion around and learn more about Etheirys which directly correlates with his saying on the epigraph of quenching man's thirst and watering their minds with wisdom. So many little fun things hiding in Elpis and I would wager the other 8 of the twelve are there as well with less subtle hints.
Althyk and Nymeia have some dialogue that is 1 to 1 identical to some dialogue between a brother and sister ancient in elpis. Also those big horned beasts that we fight after nophica are proto behemoths and we help an ancient design the current form in the same quests.
8:45 So in SHB 6.3 before we fight Elidibus where we create the summoning circle for the party, Elidibus calls it an invocation of eld. And prior to that when we fight Hades G'raha Tia does his summoning to summon our party. So who/what/how are we summoning when we summon our trial party canonically? Also, during the endsinger fight, when you use the Tank LB3 to survive the big planet attack she reacts with the line "Dynamis?" I mean, it is implied a few times in the 4.0 story that we are indeed able to utilize dynamis in an impactful way.
I have a few possibilities for the seeming contradiction in the lore of the twelvestones. 1) If I recall correctly, Althyk mentions that their eternal stones have changed form over the ages, but have been everpresent. It is possible that referring to them as "eternal stones" simply refers to the form they take today, or is a metaphorical name, and what he refers to is more metaphysical, and became present in the twelvestones when Louisoix carved their symbols into appropriate locations. 2) Louisoix may have been unknowingly guided by the twelve to carve their symbols into the locations where they are found. As the location of their eternal stones, those who would pray at them would have the strongest connection with their god, and empower Louisoix's summoning even further. 3) Louisoix may have, in his own research and wandering, figured out that those stones had special connections to the gods innately, and marked them with their symbols. 4) Louisoix may only be telling a half-truth. He may have carved the symbols into them, but found some way to entreat the gods directly, receiving this plan from them, along with the location of their stones.
After watching your video I feel like the end of this raid is the twelve are worried. Due to our actions The Watcher no longer has a purpose. The Epigraph to bind the gods to function now no longer applies to one of them, and it is now possible it could happen to the rest. They need to be certain we "the chosen of Hydealyn" are the best choice to help forge a new epigraph and give them new purpose.
I think the change in the lore is less "Louisoix wasn't involved" and now more "Louisoix took existing places of power and co-opted them" A small change that lets us go to the marks of the twelve without being burdened by 1.0 lore that only some players will know.
I think with the star saved and the final days averted, the twelve are ready to be done, and are looking for someone to shatter their yoke. Especially with how Oshan is slated for last or second to last, they want you to understand who they are, what they do, and why it would likely be ok for them to just stop now.
2:02 Well, unless they actively said so in a live letter or something, the Watcher is guessed to be the 13th god, as the story stops before we go to ask and confirm.
Did it specifically state that dynamis was responsible for the alterations of the Twelve's forms over time? I took it more as an offshoot of creation magic. In order to make a primal, it requires faith and conviction. The thoughts and faith of the supplicants alters the end result, like in the Eden raids. If you have the creation of a primal (or created being, or whatever Hydaelyn technically counts as) that is being supported by the prayer and belief of their supplicants, then it makes sense that the Twelve would alter over time based on the shifting beliefs of their supplicants over time.
My current running theory is this: They know they have been changed and altered by dynamis as well as they care for the people of Eorzea. They can't just go down whenever they choose in order to "set the record strait" as that would just fuel the fire so to speak. Calling on us as adventures to me looks odd until I wondered: Could they be wanting to.. die? or in a sense, be reset back to the originals they were to then do it the right way? I also feel, though I have no evidence of this that the wondering adventurer person that has been helping us is a god, but doesn't know it. Oschon fits his description the best as he is a wonderer by his own omission, and looks like a ranger (Though we never have seen him draw a weapon). The final unnamed 13th being the Watcher on the moon makes sense though why he is unchanged to me is obvious. He has no stone as far as we know on Eorzea so he is not changed or prayed too for dynamis to work on him. The whole adventurer guy being Oschon came from me reading his bits of speech after you read the epitaph. It seemed to me almost too perfect. he is to "wonder and share in men's solitude" but the gods were never allowed to wander like that before so the only way they could is... if he wiped his memory to do so. That's my thoughts anyway. Thank you for making these videos friend
I suspect that the retcon about stones would be as such: Louisoix made these stones as anchors for the Primal versions of the Twelve yes, but with the Seventh Umbral Calamity and years since it happened, these stones became the objects of worship of the Twelve for Eorzean people and fairly recently became the holders of the knowledge.
About the limit break, can't it be only influenced by the character's *wish* only similarly to what the scions do in ultima thule ? I do think that it being a result of the channeling of residual ambiant aether seems more plausible rather than dynamis but couldn't that be another source of *power* ?
If I would say what happened with Louisoix was not a hard retcon but a softone. A clarification even. Louisoix manifested the locations for the rocks, but those were always the location of their divine. For example, Water Dowsing. Louisoix dows the location to create the rocks, but the gods magic was always there. It's not the first time such writing is used in stories either. For example in Star Wars when Obi-wan told Luke that Darth Vader killed his father. Just to learn in the next movie that Vader was his father. How did Obi-wan respond to this contradiction/retcon? The line, "From a certain point of view." Thus was the contradiction no longer a ret-con but a clarification that Obi-wan didn't want that Father knowledge to cloud Luke from needing to kill his father.
About the stones themselves, I wouldn't really say what we learned in the new patch contradicts the old lore. it is made very clear that these -stones- Were cast down by the twelve as information keepers. However the Symbols upon them were made by the old man. It is likely that the grand magus sensed something about these stones and thus made these marks for his plan. if you consider the positions of said stones, it would be very strange that he just managed to make people worship them with a simple symbol. and then managed to gather enough energy. All of these locations were likely already in some form or capacity sacred to the people. Basically the words of the gods and the words of Lou does not contradict one and another, the Gods never said they made the Symbols but rather the Stones themselves and that no matter what shape or form they'll take, they will always be keepers of hidden information.
Maybe with the stones just a thought Loui played them off as he created them to get people to go to location known and already had the base and tied to the 12. But what come out during the patch is the real lore behind them? Though you see this with Authors all the time Anne MacFree (I know I spelled her last name wrong so very sorry) did something similar with a historical figure in the original Dragonriders of Pern Trilagy with Merida the queen rider who died along with her dragon after traveling across purn to deliver a cure to the Plague they were dealing with at the time while fighting thread. When Merida's Ride came out there very first page changed everything that had been established about this key figure that shaped the history of Pern. And it all started with the Hold that she was from. from the start Merida was said to be from Ruatha hold and most Perns that could talk to all Dragons were from Ruatha. Anne in her other books did a lot with Psi powers and the Ruathan line was very tied to being among the only Holds that had any active Psi sensitivity still on Pern. THough when it came time for Merida's Book to be published Merida was from Southrn Bowle Hold and that was one of the many errors that Anne made with Pern's history thought with most of them she had a good reason. Merida was just one example she didn't have a good reason. It was just how the book came out. Anne was later sited as saying she was guilting of changing the history of Pern in some of the earlier books because was the worst at keeping her own Notes. The Writers of FFXIV have 10 years of notes to sift through and while this might seen as lazy it may have been a case of pitching a new corse of the lore and not so much a retcon as making existing lore fit better with plans coming out. A trend I noticed with the colation of the crystal tower and ShB is that the Alliance raids play as a foundation that happens later on. there are so many Loaded guns that they can keep going for much longer than just another 10 years.
All louisoix said was he went around and created the marks of the 12 on the stones, not the stones themselves. Specifically he also says they can't just pray to the 12 wherever, so if he just made random stones and placed them around wherever, he would be going against his own ideas. IMO the stones were always there, but they didn't have the symbols on them until Louisoix came along. He was attuned enough to aether that he was most likely drawn to these stones specifically.
I have no idea how one could square this believe that dynamis usage fueling limit breaks can only I happen if all users wish that to be so alongside the fact that we accidently and unknowingly use dynamis in our limit breaks with Endsinger. The implication of that fight is that limit breaks are dynamis fueled and we've been unknowingly using it through our acts of extreme emotion with the help of our group mates to manage it
Maybe there's room for both ideas. The twelve, who are beings of aether, may have created the stones or the locations where they reside, or perhaps that's where connections to that particularly god's aetherial stream or essence is strongest. Louisoix may have been led by the twelve to these specific locations or found them himself for that reason in 1.0. If you were going to summon forth primals for the twelve, probably the best place to do it would be at those locations where ties to them were the strongest. I can then see Louisoix identifying those areas with markers or physical "stones" to point them out to others to serve as an anchor for prayers of the followers, right at the ideal summoning location. Or the writers could have made an honest writing mistake. 😂 There is so much lore to wrangle in this game's decade long history.
I'd like to think an easy way to fuse both new and old lore is that Althyk subconsciously manipulated Louisoix to 'repair' the stones he had already made to used as beacons of worship, but considering even the location and appearance of the stones were changed between 1.0 and 2.0, it's more likely that they indeed retconned grandpa out.
If something is untrue, it isn't necessarily a lie. "Lie" suggests intent, and a person can be mistaken about something without meaning to deceive anyone about it.
While the whole idea of the marks of the Twelve actually being created by the Twelve themselves definitely feels like a retcon, there technically is a way for them to explain away the discrepancy. Althyk only mentions that they scattered stones across Eorzea that hold information, not that they created them with the symbols upon them. The passage from Louisoix mentions engraving "ancient stone" with the symbols as representations of the Twelve as well as calling these sites, "where they lie in slumber." So it could have been that Louisoix found the stones and engraved Eorzea's symbols for the Twelve onto them to designate them as sites of worship. How Louisoix found out that these stones were actually tied to the Twelve I have no idea. If they are implying that the stones were created with the marks of the Twelve on them, that brings up another issue. That issue being the symbols themselves. They mention that Menphina's hound Dalamud only came into being after Dalamud started being worshiped and yet her symbol shows two moons. G'raha has a line mentioning that Halone's spear and shield are symbolic of her being a goddess of war and her symbol depicts spears. He also mentions Nymeia's spinning wheel as being a mortal idea of a goddess of fate and her symbol is a spinning wheel. The symbols of the Twelve must be man-made and not something the gods created. The only reason they show up in the phantom realm is because the Omphalos is shaped to be a depiction of the Seventh Heaven, a mortal contrivance.
The big aetherial heebie jeebies that made everyone forget the original warrior(s) of light also hit the devs and made them forget the old lore, that's the lore explanation.
I think that this continuity error was likely intentional, but even if it wasn't, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it becomes addressed later on in 6.5. While the writers have been prone to making mistakes from time to time, as is natural, they also will take that in stride as something that could have been true from a certain point of view. Like a lot of people have pointed out, it could be spun that Louisoix's involvement in these stones was limited to just marking them for visibility. Or who knows, maybe Louisoix had more involvement with the twelve than we know.
My thoughts are certainly still toward the "they just want to have fun with their children" theory, given how much they're enjoying battling us, though it is possible it's related to the 7th Heaven (though I feel we're gonna see a clarification that it is, or is on, the moon); as for the stones, that seems quite rather odd of a thing to change in such a way, so I feel they may genuinely have forgotten the original lore on them... as to what that means if they realize before 6.5, who knows?
My current theory is the Seventh Heaven is connected to that pedestal in the back of the Phantom Realm, the one not aligned to one of the elemental heavens
End goal of the 12? Well, here’s a crazy theory. There were 14 members of the convocation. Each representing a facet to control so that the world runs stable. What if the 12 + The Watcher + Hydelyn were the new 14. She just based the new system on the old one. And now that Hydelyn is gone, she has left everything to us, the player. So the Gods are now ready to recruit us into the inner circle. Also Azem was a facet of the people, made to travel the lands and experience them. In this new system, who else would represent the people more than if every new generation there would be a WoL chosen by the gods to represent the people? I think that’s pretty sick.
I’d be intrigued if Louisoix’s stone inscriptions and the power of Eorzea’s faith altered all of the 12’s own belief. We know it takes time and numbers, but I think also *intensity*. It’s possible Althyk must’ve been claiming something that all of Eorzea believes. Additionally, to read the epigraphs requires using tools given by the 12 anyway. So in short, we’re using corrupted tools with corrupted instructions for a corrupted answer. So, I don’t think it’s actually a retcon as much as seeing the very rules introduced in 6.3 already taking place. A new myth was made and so much of the events of Dalamud’s fall is obscured (for example, no one can remember who the WoL is). At least that’s that’s my means of reconciling the situation. Guess we’ll see in 6.5!
Maybe louixoi used to work with the twelves, if the people of sharlyan were aware of venat in the ethereal sea maybe she told them about the twelves and louixoix worked with the twelve by creating those stones for them but also to use for his simmoning of fake twelves if they are not permitted to act for mankind directly ( im not that well lore versed so i know i might be walking on eggs right now)
I wonder... When you mentioned all that of Menphina and Dalamud, I found myself curious of what would occur to the others among the Twelve if one of them no longer had any believers, or what Menphina may do or feel if Dalamud was no longer believed in? Would the others weep and mourn? Would they forget entirely? Or mayhaps the deity who lost all believers would simply return to their original being? But what of those like Dalamud? Would the Twelve feel sadness?
8:20 Just curious, how did you come to the conclusion that our limit breaks are aetheric in nature when the endsinger reacts to the tank LB3 to survive the first oblivion with "Dynamis?" Keep up the awesome work on these lore videos!
If you wanna be pedantic, what Liousoix says doesn't necessarily say that he CREATED them, only that by his own hand did they manifest. So by a certain interpretation, they could have already existed and he simply called them forth (ignoring how he knew about them in the first place, and how he made them manifest lol)
I mean isn't it outright confirmed twice in the msq that you transcending your limits is dynamis? That casting a limit break is through conviction and a desire to tear down the enemy, shield your allies, or save them all? It's never possible to do this unless you are forced into it
Back when endwalker first came out, we had to fight Hydalyn herself in order to prove that we were capable of defeating Metion. And then her aether scattered and she was no more. What if the 12 are doing the same? What if there’s a big final battle that will allow the 12 to rest? With Zodiark and Metion gone, the 12 can leave the source to us. I’m stretching a bit when I say this, but there’s another possibility. With the 12, the watcher, and Hydalyn, there’s 14 gods total. And there’s 13 reflections and the source, also a total of 14. Perhaps after some big battle, the 14 shards will merge (safely) to become one big whole again. The ascians were forcing this before its time, which is also why we have the calamities. I find it hard to believe that Hydalyn would tear the world asunder without a plan to put it back together. Again, a stretch, but still a possibility
Well, even if the creation myth for Althyk and Nymeia is written in a greek mythology way. The fact is that Maria and Alkaios were indeed siblings in Elpis and were the ancients that Venat used to model Nymeia and Althyk. In its entirety the creation myth is false, but that's because it's fiction. Some of it is indeed true, which means that the relationship and potentially some of the events of the story are true. The text was decorated to appear more like a mythological text about the creation of the gods, just like how the greek mythology was written by ancient greeks.
I think you're mistaken regarding limit break, you don't need time and numbers for Dynamis to do anything, to change the entire universe like the Endsinger song yes you need that to change the shape of the gods and their respective heavens yes, but small changes are not as difficult, like the Elpis flowers which change colors immediately, the limit break is a power gained by Dynamis as its heavily hinted at in the game if not it was out right said. The players don't need to imagine how the limit break would look they just need to channel their thoughts and beliefs to the specific player and only believe they can do an exceptionally strong attack how the attack looks depends on the player each with their respective job, again the endsinger didn't imagine each monster the Dynamis would create its that's why the people turned in Thavnair turned to deformed versions of manuysa. Also, again, the Elpis flower changes color vased on your feelings. The person is not imagining a specific color. That's my only point limit breaks are a result of Dynamis.
I think it's possible that Althyk created the stones through Louisoix. If I remember correctly he did not say *at which point in time* he created them, so maybe it was shortly before the calamity. I have the theory, that Deryk is either Oschon, because he's wandering around restlessly, or the Nameless One, because he keeps distance and watches. Either way, he talks like the Twelve in the way he says he will not go against the will of mortals (and monkeys for that matter) and will disappear once this is over. It's interesting to think, that we only get access to Omphalos, once Deryk appears. I suppose one can only enter with the help of a deity. Yes, the Twelve wanted to meet and fight us, but Deryk was the one to show us when and where and to get us there.
Wanted to stop by and slap an addendum of sorts for the audience, but first things first, thank you, @SynodicScribe, for the shoutout! I appreciate your taking the time to publish this work and start these critical conversations.
I want people to know that 1.0 was never removed from the canon. People who weren't there might not know the story details, and that's fine. It shouldn't be expected. But to say it doesn't matter is ignoring far too much in the current story directly derived from the 1.0 plot and elements. There are so many references to details from the original game and entire questlines that act as closures for those stories; it's the only reason I mentioned to the OP about the potential retcon because up until last Tuesday, it was known that Louisoix was the source of the Marks.
I'm looking forward to seeing how Thalia (potential name of the last instance following their Three Graces naming convention) will allow both the idea the Twelve made the Marks that got confused for objects of worship and how Louisoix made them. If they allowed a mention of Louisoix in the concluding quest arc, it'd tidy it up, and we won't have to consider it retcon. Because additional information is still deemed a retcon (additive retcons are better for long-term narrative, the MMO nature of the game means they have to change things over time), however, they do it so well with many things that I prefer that over omitting past context and details entirely.
That's mainly from my personal narrative criticism; I want them to remember Louisoix's significant contribution to the power of the Twelve in the first place. They've yet to mention it, making me hopeful for an excellent conclusion that will bring it up, but for now, it's up in the air. Excluding the NieR alliance raid since that's a different narrative method, the narrative team tends to finish off the alliance raids in neat packages that answer all our questions, usually before the next expansion.
I don't want to talk about dynamis here because it'll make the comment longer 😂.
TL;DR: many people from 1.0 legacy + anyone who read up on the quest Living on a Prayer knew Louisoix mentions himself as the architect of the Marks. Many of us in the lore community would like to see them connect it somehow with the eternal stone concept mentioned after the raid.
Add: Be nice, it's okay to disagree over lore topics, but we need to do better with the nature of the discussion, some of you here trying to suggest you know better are not being mindful of your words, and that's not okay.
The thing that gets me is the fact that even this addendum completely obviates admitting to any potential comprehension errors regarding the 1.0 quest script, it just jumps to assuming that Louisoix is being, I don't know, 'written out' despite the fact that his plot thread has been settled for a really, really long time and the spirit of it was carried on by the twins - and it has been referenced MANY times since, even within the Myths of the Realm.
The fact of the matter is, the script of Living on a Prayer does not mention Louisoix as 'the architect' of the stones - let alone their source, but as the one who 'manifested' them for the public's purpose as icons of faith to be used to halt Dalamud, which is a very clear difference. 'Manifesting' in this context could mean unearthing, reinscribing, or plain and simple relocating them from sites unseen in 1.0 - not necessarily 'creating', which would not be mutually exclusive to the other meanings if there was anything supporting it, which I believe is quite the opposite.
And if this wasn't enough, then I have one obscure tidbit to offer as a counterpoint to the idea that Louisoix created the stones: If he created them, then why on earth was Thaliak's stone found as a prominent piece of 'Xande's Tomb' in 1.0? And it's not like Louie would have picked some important rock to tag himself, because as far as 1.0's content was concerned, Allag had an early history of worship towards the Twelve - it would make sense that they'd have such a fixture marking the site of (what we can assume was actually) the Crystal Tower.
While it's possible and ideal that they might tie things in for Thalia, like the tradition of archons and Louisoix's overall contribution, he wasn't the end-all-be-all either and he has been celebrated more than once and in many places across the game's history, whereas others of his caliber who had dealings with the Twelve have been left unremarked - is that a better or worse omission? Like, Louie wasn't behind the Lambs of Dalamud giving Menphina a dog, and he wasn't behind Halone's warrior-goddess makeover, why is it considered a grievous omission to let his story thread rest?
I don't know, I'm overall disappointed in the execution of this video culminating with an idea that isn't actually all that air-tight being passed off as a fact, and not a possible point of discussion; it comes off as a misuse of platform, and that's not getting into the 'shame on the writers' overtone. Yeah, the writers aren't godlike or infallible, but this ain't it either chief.
@@acedianPianist, what gets me about your comment is that you took the time to assume that I had any potential comprehension errors with the 1.0 script. The cutscene exists and is accessible (I even went to go find it before I said anything). Suppose we want to defend English ambiguity as a reason why these two events don't add up. In that case, the entire game is at fault for being inconsistent simply because it doesn't speak plainly and relies on older linguistic conventions that get misconstrued way too often.* But that was not my intent initially with what I aimed to point out. Simply that there was an origin already provided for the Marks of the Twelve, and with the statement made in the raid content, the previous origin point is no longer the case. I'm trying to avoid unraveling the meaning of English here because there have been language barrier situations in the past. They stated one thing, and now they're saying something else, and I'd like to see them bridge it. And it's okay to acknowledge they make these mishaps without hating the game or the story and to find it an interesting point of the narrative consumer experience.
What encouraged me to reply was your statement that Synodic is misusing his platform. That is somewhat disrespectful to say. This creator puts in an insane amount of work, hours, and dedication to making sure what he's creating appeals to the lore enthusiasts in the community. Because he's choosing to point out a potential retcon doesn't diminish his effort to make the content in the first place. We can disagree about lore topics, but I point out once more we need to do this without putting people's efforts down. He wasn't even shaming the writers. The point was to break the illusion that they're perfect in their work. This is helpful in any form of narrative criticism. If you disliked it that hard, you could have just clicked off the video. But putting Synodic down for his work is not okay.
*ADD: It turns out Louisoix's phrasing is different in the other languages, so there is a chance the 1.0 English localization is not as accessible as it could be in expressing what he meant. German dialogue presents him as finding the sacred locations instead.
@@the_essalim Well said.
@@the_essalim Now, that about the German version is a somewhat frustrating realization. Hunting down every (significant) story beat in each language over the last decade & change is a bit of an exhausting thought. 😔💤 Good thing I'm in bed, I suppose.
@@FrazzleCat oh yeah, I let Anonymoose handle the "panslations" because it's beyond my ken to access the scripts and then do so for all four languages 😂 but he was the first one to cue me into the possibility of English dropping context more than once and looking for fuller meaning in observing all the dialogue out there, it's fascinating stuff
I would note that Louisoix doesn't say he created the stones, he says that he "manifested the divine symbols" at places where "they lie in slumber". This could mean that the stones were already there and imbued with the 12's aether, and that Louisoix could have just tapped in to that in creating the symbols.
Zodiark didn't suppress dynamis on the star, he stopped the song of oblivion from reaching the star by preventing the ethereal currents going stagnant. Zodiark is all about darkness and by extension is about astral, active, diverse and changing things. He effectively shielded the star by keeping is celestial aether currents active.
My interpretation by going through the MSQ for the first time was:
.Celestial aether = magical ozone
.Song of Oblivion = evil UV light that turns people into monster
.Zodiark = stabilizer of magical ozone so that evil UV light doesn’t get through.
Yeah, I imagined Zodiark as a Dyson sphere built around the star.
Going off the dialogue you showed, you could argue that he didn't make the stones, just carved into them. He does just say the symbols were his own doing and the stones were ancient, so likely there before him if he is saying that.
Actually something to back this up, when you go to Menphina’s stone
For the retcon, the gods said the stones would always exist regardless of shape or form. I didn't quite think of the stones being indestructible, but thought what if the stones did get destroyed or burried/lost, which made me come to the conclusion that they'll somehow appear one way or another. Louisoix's creation of these stones might just be one of these occurances, and there's some fated force that always brings out the emergence of these stones if a prior one is gone.
As for the Twelve's goals, It might just be the same as Hydaelyn. They've shepherd mankind and guided them, and feel like they've finally reached a point where they're no longer needed. So they challenge mankind to see if they're strong and worthy enough so that they can retire for a bit
That theory about the retcon sounds feasible to me
I think you are into something. It's hard for me to believe the writers forgot about Louisoix being the creator of those stones when they had him in mind on the previous raid when they mentioned him and his summoning.
or that there is more to the stones perhaps they are conduates for dynamas and are not persevable to us and louisoix just happened to build "physical" markers overthese locations
Where they're no longer needed, lol what have the twelve been doing - at all, for anyone, anywhere at any time - that needs to be removed now? Like, it seems like without the twelve, people would just stop travelling to rocks on the side of the road to pray. If they didn't show up this patch, I wouldn't even believe they were real beings.
@@ubiwrongcomeatme3452 Simple, the people believed they existed. The fact that much of society on Hydaelyn, post Etheirys Sundering, developed the way it did stems from the people needing a religious icon or divine idle. Which the Twelve evidently provided at the start of the star's worship of them. Now we know that the Twelve VALIDATE a lot of what all these people have wrought (heroes and villains) and suffered. And it all served a unifying purpose; preparing against The Final Days. Whether that's good or bad can only be decided now that the dust has settled, and extinction has been averted.
Zodiark's purpose wasn't to suppress all Dynamis, just the external waves of Despair radiating from the Meteia. The people's Dynamis, Venat clearly assumed, would be used to help people create anchors for HOPE, to push on against adversity. The problem with Zodiark wasn't that the Ancients relied on him. It was that they assumed he could actively change their fate. The Twelve NEVER PROMISED SUCH A THING.
That was a big assumption to make to believe that Dynamis isn't the foundation of Limit Breaks. Limit Breaks are manifestations of Desperation and Faith. Aether may be shaped by Dynamis in the case of the Twelve, but it is foolhardy to assume the gathered Dynamis of the Hero Shards didn't manifest to empower Elidibus/WoL.
There's also the lore bit about the ETERNAL BOND questline (The Ties that Bind) revolving around these stones in a ritual FAR OLDER than 1.0. So if it's a retcon, it happened far earlier than just 6.3:
[ Claribel regales you with an ancient tale of two souls who wandered Eorzea in search of answers from the Twelve, from which the next tradition you and your partner must observe originates. To wit, you and your partner must embark upon a pilgrimage to the marks of the Twelve, where together you must /pray to receive their blessings. Begin by retracing the steps of the original pilgrims and /pray at the marks of the Matron, the Builder, and the Keeper in the Twelveswood. ]
The limit break thing is definitely strange, considering when you use tank LB3 during Final Days trial, Endsinger calls it out as dynamis use.
@@val7885 Yep. the name gets a bigger meaning when considered in that context: Limit Break, aka, breaking past your limits. Whilst you could probably do that with Aether, I believe that Limit Breaks is the WoL building up Dynamis throughout a fight subconsciously and using it to empower their aether at a critical juncture.
@@val7885 Not to mention earlier on in the MSQ of Endwalker, when Nidhana tells us about Akasha(which we later find out is essentially Dynamis) she brings up "breaking our limits" in battle as an example of it
@@WillTheDragon Plus when we find out about Dynamis we can cheekily go “I’ve been known to break my limits from time to time.”
This is honestly just them trying to get around Pleroma. They introduced so many concepts this expansion that introducing a third actual conceptual force of nature would just be baffling to the playerbase.
Dynamis in all of its sense only means "the ability to"or "the potential". It has no further meaning. The fact that anybody would attribute limit breaks to it is absolutely nonsensical. Potentiality does not guarantee execution. The only thing that does is Energeia, or energy, strength, willpower. I am actually glad they are going back over this and fixing this, because it was a fucking atrocity to me to introduce Akasha and then all of a sudden consolidate it down to Dynamis.
If I might posit a theory?
The Twelve seem to imply that they do indeed have subtle ways of guiding us about, even if it is so ephemeral and insignificant. Did Rhalgar not after all guide those who would become the Ala Mhigans after the sixth umbral calamity?
Given that Archon Luisouix also bore Tupsimati, a tool for channeling vast amounts of aether bearing Thaliak's signet, it wouldn't be out of the question for the twelve to subtly steer him to choose the stones they use for storing information as these anchor points of faith?
Yeah, the line says "graven upon ancient stone", the rocks were already there. That he happened to put the symbols on them speaks of divine providence.
@@AnchorJG I would suggest there's a slight inconsistency in their attitude towards those events and that theory being true, however - they didn't, and don't really, seem to want our worship, those stones were not created for that purpose, Louisiox co-opted them for that.
I would suggest it more likely that he through his own skill found them on his own.
That being said, I get the vibe something is a little bit wrong with the 12 and we're actually there to help them be that something they're all judging us in regards to, or just oschon, I dunno...
Either way, we'll find out in something like 5 months I guess!
It could be both. The sites have always existed, but Louisoux carved the symbols to bring attention to them.
Like, Halone's symbol is in the cave of her saint you called out in a previous video. That story is older than the 6 or 7 years since Louisoux would have made the carving.
And the gods CAN influence people. Deryk is almost definitely a god, and he gave that whole speech to the Lamb guy. Putting an idea in Louisoux's head that lines up with their existing doctrine isn't really a big influence or removal of his free will.
That is exactly what happened, Louisoix stated he merely carved the symbols into the stones. The stones themselves, as mentioned in Ties That Bind, existed far before 1.0 or Louisoix
Which god would Deryk be? Oschon the Wanderer. One of the few we haven't seen yet.
There is a way for it not to be a retcon (the 12 guided Louisioux to use those specific stones, which is something he'd likely leave out if he felt they wanted it secret, in preparation for their power being used come the 7th calamity and beyond. It's a bit of a reach though, so hopefully it'll come up one way or another.
As for the goals of the 12, one thing I feel is important is that Halone kept reiterating "Mankind's faith belongs to mankind," alongside a continuing theme of Endwalker and this raid series that while certain ways of worship are bad/incorrect, the act of worship itself isn't inherently evil. It makes me think that the actual people making up the 12 want to step down in some fashion. And by losing to a "God-slayer" like the warrior of Light, they're creating a disconnect between themselves and the beings worshiped by Eorzea. Because the continued existance of the 12-that-are-worshiped is mankind's decision, not theirs; they don't feel they have the right to simply say "You don't need us anymore, we're leaving" or something.
Agreed, a statement that Louisioux was guided by his own nation's patron deity would be a simple way to resolve this lore from being a disconnected retcon.
…Except Rhalgr and Byregot outright said they had nothing to do with Louisoix’s attempt at summoning them. So that’s unlikely. They seem to be against divine intervention in general, from what I understand.
I didn't think the game flat out said The Watcher was the 13th, just that the explanation sounded like The Watcher. It could be another being altogether or Us ourselves, since we keep being recognized as part of Azem. As for the stones I always took it as Louisioux carving the stones, but the stones themselves were already imbued with some kind of Godly Aether. As for what the 12 have in store, I honestly don't know. They haven't given us a lot to go on about that so far. I thought it was interesting that they wanted to come along with us to get the information we needed. It's hard to tell if they truly mean well or if it's something that will blow up in our faces and we end up having to get rid of them somehow.
Same here, the characters are only assuming that the watcher is the unnamed 13th. I bet it’s the little monkey who doesn’t speak ne appears out of nowhere 😊 he is following us to see what we are capable of or something and just as he’s unnamed he doesn’t speak, unlike the other 12 in their pet disguises whom only tagged along to see the world.
Yeah same. I think it would be extremely weird for the watcher to be one of the twelve when he clearly has no combat skills since he didn’t dare to fight Zenos or fandaniel on the moon.
Always would be extremely weird for us to go on the moon and the watcher be like “ throw em hands “ 😂
Yeah, I took it as just speculation among the people there that The Watcher was the 13th. I imagine one of the first things we'll be doing in 6.5 is going to talk to The Watcher, and at that point it'll be confirmed or not.
@@SomeCallMeAku Yeah, would be extremely weird for the watcher to be as powerful as one of the twelve and not attempt to fight Fandaniel, Zenos and even globez (remember we see globez killing a figure on the moon and it had to be before he consume the zodiark shard)
@@Tom-Pendragon The one on the moon is a Creation, as I recall, so the one in the raid would be the real deal. That said, I've been playing with the idea that the final pillar to open will be our Azem, though I don't know how that'd be possible since Azem was sundered, and this group appears to have been spared the sundering by being placed in a pocket dimension ala Emet, et al.
Update : Like someone said in one of the comments under mine, Lousoix carved the stones, he didn't say he created them, so it seems there is no retcon at all ?
My guess for the "retcon" is that since 1.0 doesn't exist anymore, if the informations from 1.0 are not in 2.0 or after, they don't have to take them into account. The writers can pick and choose what to take and what to change. Since it appears only in 2 lines of dialogue in a game that doesn't exist anymore and not even in the encyclopedia. And since they really want to forgot 1.0 that would make sense.
It really doesn’t change the practicality of events that are canon either: those who would become the Scions go to pray to the Twelve at their markings across Eorzea to bring for primals in their image
I don't think anyone in the writing team wants to forget 1.0 since most ARR character backgrounds, significant and insignificant past events of both relevant and less relevant characters, physical status of locations, and obviously the final moments of 1.0 (but that is ironically the tiniest link here) all reflect themselves in today's Eorzea and are all hugely intertwined and strongly present in ARR. There have been way stupider and more insignificant details about some random 1.0 event or plot, compared to "Louisoux made the stones", that still carried over. So I don't believe this was deliberate.
@@raisylvaine8398 This is a very important point. These retcons don't actually change anything about the functionality of the lore we've seen previously, it simply adds a new context to it. That's pretty generally understood to be the "most acceptable" way to do a retcon
It's possible Louisoix created the marks in those locations because he knew they had greater power or Althyk took advantage of them after the calamity to store this information. That's just a theory to explain the apparent retcon that doesn't have anything confirming or denying it, though.
I actually went and watched the cutscene and here's the thing, Louisoix didn't randomly choose the stones to carve the symbols. He chose these "ancient stones" and indicated that he believed they were located to where the Gods slumbered.
So rather than a retcon, it actually contextualizes Louisoix's choice.
A thing I would like to point out, the idea that emotions (and prayers) of the people have changed beings before specifically with Ultima (Ivalice). Ultima was a being "summoned" from another dimension and people's fear caused them to eventually worship it, which is what changed it into the form we see during the raid as well as giving it a sense of self that it didn't have before.
Though this information comes from both its real-life statue collectible and from its Triple Triad card. So while Dynamis is a series retcon, it was introduced as a catch all to explain moments like that.
And to just throw this out I think the idea that all emotion energy must be Dynamis isn't completely right, Dynamis is an energy made from pure emotion but we've seen, as you've pointed out before, that emotions can influence aether so emotions can be apart of aether-related abilities and Limit Breaks, but not as pure Dynamis.
I remember the Endsinger saying, "Dynamis?!" When tank lb 3'd.
@@ritadgreat17 While Dynamis is most likely used in that instance, the problem is that technically everything we did in Ultima Thule was via Dynamis. Her domain does not work on the same rules or logic as everywhere else.
but limit breaks are Dynamis the Endsinger even says so when you fight her, is that already not true anymore?, I always thought it as "you believe in the one party member ability to pull off a miracle" and that joint faith allows them to break their limit in the form they see fit. Also I'm pretty sure Zodiark only suppressed Dynamis coming in not Dynamis already on the planet.
I would like to clarify I did *not* play 1.0, nor that I have the best memory, so I apologize in advance: as others have mentioned, it is "possible" that Louisoix didn't make the stones but rather mark them. In the screenshot with text from 1.0 (around 12:45) he says that he's responsible for the *symbols* that appeared, and he also said that these were locations where "they lie in slumber" (referencing the Twelve). Perhaps what he did was mark these powerful stones/places/locales since not everyone in Eorzea is as wise ( or sensitive to aether?) as he was to know where these places would be?
In any case, great and informative video! Thank you for your work.
I was under the impression that all that Louisoix did was mark the stones; it does not stop the Twelve from having "created" them. Coincidence, or divine providence? The Twelve also imply that their places of power can change form and still fulfill their purpose... But I did note the potential discrepancy there as soon as they mentioned them.
12:26 If we are looking at the text as written, it would seem that Louisoix didn't make the stones, but rather engraved the symbols of the gods on the stones. Notice how he refers to the stone as ancient, but also says that he was the one to cause the symbols to manifest. He could have been guided to the stones to mark them or did so himself when he found one of the stones and marked it just because. This remains consistent with both pieces of lore to have and have Louisoix have a greater connection to the Twelve.
Then again, I may be wrong since I do remember that there was a line that mentioned the engravings on the stone. But that could just be because the gods now have that as an identifier for which stones did what.
I never played 1.0 and only got into FF14 in late ShB, but it would make sense to me that when building shrines to the Twelve, Louisoix would use artifacts generally associated with the Twelve.
Although if the stones were already associated with the Twelve long before Louisoix came along, it sorta begs the question of why shrines hadn't already been built around them long ago. The faithful would have long since been making pilgrimages to such relics and someone would have gotten the idea to build shrines or even whole temples around them.
I was thinking the same, both new and old lore aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, who's to say it wasn't Althyk guiding Louisoix to 'discover' the stones.
1) The Endsinger literally says "Dynamis?" after we use tank LB3 against her. This would seem to indicate that Limit Breaks involve the usage of Dynamis
2) My understanding is that many, many things from 1.0 lore have been retconned. I view 1.0 lore as a pool of ideas that may or may not be valid until these things are brought up again in post-2.0 lore.
3) Louisoux may have "created" the stones of the 12 simply by finding points where aether seemed to resonate in response to prayer toward each of the individual gods, and marked their locations by inscribing the markings. In that sense he would have simply identified or located them.
Doesn't the Endsinger call out the limit break as dynamis though? I don't think it necessarily NEEDS a lot of people to use it, just a strong force of emotion. They basically canonized shounen moments. Could always be wrong, but that's how I saw it.
Pretty sure in the dialogue, they suspected that the watcher was the 13th but it was never “confirmed.” I personally think Deryk is the 13th. His dialogue about disappearing and him being more traveled than all of us. I’d wager he’s “Eorzea.”
Nah, the Watcher being the 13th makes more sense if you read the official sidestory called "A Friendship of Record" in Tales of the Dawn on the Lodestone website. It details Venat's closest friend who was always with her even since before she was Azem and then goes on to explain Venat as Hydaelyn modelled the watcher after that same person.
Since The Twelve are heavily rumoured to be the Twelve people in the cutscene in ShB where you first learn about Venat then it lends to the idea of the gods all being her close collaborators and friends, hence the 13th being The Watcher lines up pretty well. It's not just because of speculation from our party.
Deryk feels like he's written to be a red herring. Anyhow, those sidestories always contain lots of lore and worldbuilding. They actually talked about Azem's volcano adventures in the ShB ones years before EW introduced it in the MSQ lol Recommended reads.
If Deryk is a red herring, they're selling it real hard given his comments about non-intervention, having to go his own way real soon, the phrasing of how he said that 'everything would be revealed,' and those long camera cuts when things about the 13th god are being discussed.
It could be that The Twelve went to Louisoix in his dream to carve those markings in those specific stones, much like Feo Ul went to The Source to pass messages in people’s dreams. That could be a possible theory.
The theory I have is simular to that. The gods mention that the stones have taken many forms over the years, but like them their inherit function is the same. I believe in the distant past the stones were used as a site of worship, but leading up to the Calamity they were faded and sorta left abandoned. Louisoix likely learned or knew of their history and restored the marks, believing doing so with those particular stones would make the connections for his summoning more potent.
The marriage quest "The Ties that Bind" straight up says that the marks of the twelve existed before 1.0's story. Quote, "In a time long ago, the people of Eorzea faced a crisis no less dire than the fall of Dalamud... Yet rather than set aside their disputes and rebuild from the ashes, they succumbed to their baser instincts and squabbled amongst themselves. In the aftermath of that calamity, the land slipped further into chaos... Two souls, united in purpose, rose above their brethren, and together they sought out the marks of the Twelve to entreat each deity for an answer to the question: what must mankind do to survive? "
I am fairly sure the Watcher on the Moon wasnt CONFIRMED to be the unnamed 13th, but ASSUMED to be with us going to the moon to question him in the next raid quest chain
this. my theory is that deryk is the unnamed 13th, as he's been suspicious from the start - like where'd he come from, how did he know of the 12's sanctum -- and that monkey he saved, i suspect is also one of the 12
@@Leavannah That's what I assume too, especially since his constant mentioning of traveling is probably meant to throw us off into believing "Oh clearly he's Oschon the Traveler" but one thing he said at Halone's stone really made me curious... he mentiones he "does not want to influence peoples decisions" and that "everyone should be allowed to do what they themselves want". Something that would really befit someone who's supposed to be WATCHING, not taking action. You know? Like he has been? All Deryk has done so far was travel with and watch us.
@@Duskaria Oschon is the name i forgot, who i believe is the oppo oppo who is with deryk. but i agree entirely about deryk watching.
My thinking as to the end goal of the Twelve is here is my thoughts. The Twelve might be trying to help the WoL learn about what happened both immediately after the Sundering and both the First Astral Era and Second Astral Era. I think of it as Hydealyn's final directive to the Twelve so the WoL can be prepared for any new threat maybe even unknown enemies in the future to fill the void left by the Ascians.
I don’t know if this was mentioned in a previous video, but I do think the 12 are supposed to be juxtaposed with the convocation. I had theorized that the 12 were Venats version of the convocation with her in the place of Azem and Nald and Thal having originally being two beings. This New Convocation is what I felt was her party that helped her summon and create Hydaelyn.
I think the ending of this story will have something to do with that point. Though now with the introduction of the Watcher, I feel Azem is now supposed to be represented by Oschon.
Not only that but there's something very interesting about Althyk and Nymeia
The creatures you fight leading up to them, especially the behemoth, are creatures that *you* helped create as concepts in a quest chain in Elpis
Nymeia even says the exact line to Althyk that a female ancient says to a male ancient (their names escape me atm)
It's all but certain they're one and the same, and if they are Venat's twelve followers then they must've gotten recruited after the events of elpis
@@kuronaialtani Maira and her brother, Alkaios.
@@gnw_AstA Thank you
I mean Venat was the Previous seat of Azem.
Tbh, I think the change with Luisvar, intentional or not, is is a fine retcon. I don't agree that he has little lore considering he's impact to 1.0 and even ARR with it's raid storyline. His name isn't forgotten to this day. They could've avoided it, sure, but I personally find this better. Luisvar creating these stones brings up too many questions. I hardly believe there were no rally points for worship of the Twelve before he created these with Gods being a thing for years before he was even born.
*Lousoix
@@kaihedgie1747 sorry I rarely type his name >.
It's not a retcon, the stones have existed before 1.0. The Twelve mention that the stones will simply turn back up later in some form if they're lost or destroyed.
When I learned of this retcon, I did wonder if it was because it was just some of the 1.0 lore they didn't need or want anymore.
However, I don't think it is a retcon at all when going over the info.
The stones are ancient they have been in those locations for a long time because Althyk made them.
Years later Louisoix came and as he says craved the symbols into them.
Both Althyk and Louisoix are both responsible for the stones. One for the stones creation and the other for the symbols placed on them.
Wait I forgot they said Althyk made the stones with the symbols already on them.
I find that there's a much more interesting line about those marks that you didn't touch on. Specifically, Halone says that the stones' purpose remains eternal no matter their shape and location. That REALLY stood out to me when making my lore review for this content.
To me that sounds like those things are more than just rocks with inscriptions. They're something much weirder, and possibly in some way self-intelligent and self-acting to fulfill their purpose. It would explain why the mark of Byregot for example moved from the now-inaccessible West Shroud despite REALLY not looking very mobile; it itself moved from its inaccessible previous location to its new one, because it'd be doing no good in an abandoned wilderness. But that angle also explains the Louisoix angle: it's not that he _made_ the Marks and they didn't exist before, but rather that he made these stones _into_ the Marks, perhaps-intentionally turning them into these immortal monuments. They changed shape and location at Louisoix's behest and hand, but in an abstract sense were not created by him.
I personally feel like 1.0 information isnt immune from being transformed because while yes, it is the foundation for ARR, they probably have things in there that doesn't line up with their current view of the story of the world anymore since it's quite old and probably wasnt made to go the route it has in the last decade. So it's probably an intentional overwrite, though it could also be a fake out and we'll get some new Louisiox lore in the final part of the series. Because I think leaving him out of a story based around The Twelve would be a little confusing.
this^ thank you. Not all 1.0 lore can remain the same, change can happen.
I have a theory for the retcon mentioned in this video: Louisoix only carved the symbols upon the stones. The stones themselves already existed and held the power of the gods, and Louisoix found these places of power and turned them into places of worship to focus the summoning. I don't have screenshots to back it up and admit to having terrible memory, but I think I recall some dialogue during the raid quests of the gods being amused that we mortals made the stones they created into objects and places of worship. This could be referring to Louisoix's action without specifically naming him.
My theory on what the gods want? Retirement. The Ascians are gone and cannot create more cataclysmic rejoinings. The gods no longer need to guide mortals through an apocalypse, as Rhalgr guided survivors of the Calamity of Water to Ala Mhigo with his famous meteor. But first they want to test that we are strong enough to inherit the world from them.
There is one side story featuring who the watcher supposedly was modeled after that's interesting. It implies that something of the original ancient is in there
6:55 i believe you are missing a point here: many times while we talk and travel with the gods, Menphina say that mankind can use the faith as they want. One of Halone's function is to inspire constancy, if man seeks constancy in war, they will have it by her name. Constancy is a generic term and can be applied anywhere.
Was it confirmed ? I thought the watcher was a theory by Krille, and it’s especially weird since he exists on all another shards, and he lost to somehow prepowered Globez.
There's a side story on the website that confirms how the Watcher was made.
@@libertyrae1351 Yeah, how does that confirm him being the nameless god?
This might go against the part of your video about a red mage not knowing what a monk's Limit Break is... Was leveling an alt job via Command Missions the other day and noticed that if you activate LB, the entire party stops their actions and casts it together. That got me thinking that when with other players, what canonically happens is that everyone actually casts the LB together as a party, but due to gameplay reasons we don't see it happen in game, just the job specific animations for gameplay effect. It would also make sense why the LB bar is shared, why the damage is fixed and not affected by buffs/debuffs, and that it can also be using dynamis with there being multiple people involved.
Also would like to add, what I got from the end of the raid story in 6.3 was that they are assuming The Watcher as the 13th unnamed deity, but I don't think it'll be that straight forward. I think we'll find out from The Watcher that he was just a creation of Hydaelyn, as he has already said, to watch over Zodiark specifically. Deryk will show himself to be the 13th unnamed, is around now to observe how Eitherys and the deities are coping post-Hydaelyn, and will go away again once he's sure everything is well.
The deities I suspect are Venat's inner circle that sacrificed themselves in summoning Hydaelyn with Venat as the heart and form to counter Zodiark, and have been and will continue to be on Eitherys to watch over the sundered men.
Anyway, that's just what I think. Can't wait for 6.5 to get the answers. ✌🏼
I'm more enclined to say that the twelve were the followers of Venat before the sundering.
We have Nymeia litterally saying the same exact line an npc said in Elpis. And they both talked about their brother:
Nymeia/Maira: _"Oh, Althyk/Alkaios, must you always be so formal? Although he has trouble expressing it, I assure you, my brother is absolutely giddy with joy."_
Knowing the writers I don't think this is pure coincidence, it's too much blatant to be one.
Venat must have done something with their souls or memories. Like we did with future G'raha's, she maybe turned their ether into crystals before the sundering and then incorporated them into new bodies she created... but that's just a theory.
Hello Scibe,
I'm not too familiar with the lore of 1.x, but having heard the conundrum regarding the etched stones of the twelve, I have a question.
Did Louisoix mine these stones himself and then etch the symbols on?
Here're my thoughts.
Louisoix was an accomplished Sharlayan scholar who likely dabbled in many magic based studies. Such an experienced and powerful mage could have come across these stones, noticed that there was something about them that stood out from the rest, and then carved symbols onto them keeping in mind the various heavens that the twelve reside. Also, Menphina's stone is part of a stack, while Llymlaen's and Nald'thal's are part of statues. Nald'thal's statue in particular would be an easy choice for symbol carving, but what of the rest? Were the requirements to just be "ancient stone" then any sufficiently old boulder in a given area would suffice. Plus, if it were about gathering faith, then carving the symbols at an already existing place of worship would serve its purpose.
While it is equally likely that this is an example of a retcon, I'm of the mind that both 1.x lore and 6.3 lore are true.
I will claim here that I am no scholar of ffxiv lore, so I hope I don't sound like an ignorant fool.
But I do enjoy your videos and find myself learning more with every video you post.
Thank you for reading.
Thank you for watching! Myself and a few of the other lore channels have been discussing the lore changes presented by 6.3 and we've come to the conclusion that these things are indeed contradictions to the established lore. Most of us have all be experiencing FFXIV lore since 1.0 so we understand when it's not as clear to everyone else (especially new players), but that's why I'm happy to make these videos and open these discussions! Only time will tell what's what, and I'm eager to see what comes next alongside you and everyone else.
Awesome video dude ^^ I kind of thought that Louisoix found the rocks were elementally aligned and thought "you know what, those would be perfect to carve the symbols of the Twelve for the battle ahead" or something like that.
This raid series has been an absolute blast and I'm curious (and maybe a little bit scared) how it will end. With the Twelve testing mortals through battle and the Watchers purpose seemingly fulfilled I can't help but feel like they'll all disappear completely once the raid is done.
Thank you! I'm very eager to see how this resolves as well!
I theorize that both statements could be correct. Louisoix could have created those places of worship through Althyk's influence, guidance or even as an avatar of the god himself. After all,Louisoix was able to channel Althyk's dimensional powers in particular to save the original Warriors of Light. A connection between grandpa and grandpa god, isn't too farfetched.
You didn't pay close enough attention to Louisoix's dialogue. He didn't make the stones - he chose ancient stones because he believed they were connected to the Twelve. Furthermore, unless it's in a side dialogue, Atythk never mentions carving the symbols on the stones. Only mentions the stones themselves having existed for a long time, scattered over Eorzea and it is only in recent times that they are being used as objects of prayer.
So the lore actually compliments each other - The ancient stones scattered throughout Eorzea held information about the Twelve. Louisoix discovered somehow that these ancient stones were connected to the Twelve and carved their symbols upon them.
I think you got confused because the stones are referred to as the marks of the Twelve by Snoegeim - which is their current name from Eorzeans.
If Limit Breaks aren't Dynamis this would also be a retcon because in the Endsinger fight when you have to use a Tank LB3 she says "Dynamis?" as if surprised that we can use it.
My theory to reconcile the stones lore is that while the stones existed already, they were unmarked and known only to a select few before Louisiox marked them (or somehow otherwise restored them) for the reasons he stated previously.
Many of the locations Louisoux engraved symbols on don't exist in 2.0:
Nophica, Thaliak, Byregot, Halone, and Menphina were all in different locations in 1.0. I think it's more likely that Louisoux engraved symbols where he didn't have knowledge of their location or easy access to them, and used existing ones where he could, (like Nald and Thal's in the Ul'dah, or the one at sandgate, or in the Limsa docks)
Hate to be that guy, but the stones being created by Louisoix was retconned long ago, as far back as 2015. I don't expect everyone to know this however, as in order to access this lore, you need to do the most arduous task in any MMO ever... *Get married.* Yes the way I word that is a joke, but I am dead serious about getting married.
There is a quest that leads up to actually arranging the wedding called "The Ties That Bind." In it, you make a ring for your lover using two of the Flawless Band items, one for each of you- and then you travel with them to the different points of The Twelve. It's even said in this quest that the reason you're doing this in the first place, is because of a tradition that dates very far back- as far back as the Second Umbral Era if memory serves me right.
To sum up the story of the quest as best I can- (It's been about a year since I've played it, apologies,) the quest is about following in two people's footsteps so you can go on the same journey they did, and learn about it in the process. At each stone, they ask the Twelve what the meaning of life is, and each one tells them that they cannot answer that. At the end of the journey, when they reach the twelfth one, they essentially say that they can't answer the question of "what is the reason of life?" but that the two found that meaning in themselves. It's a very charming little quest that understandably, not many people will ever really play.
But yeah, this was retconned, just MUCH earlier. The alliance raid just brought it to more people's attention.
Not every new discovery is a retcon.
I agree. It might not be a mistake or a retcon and I can think of a few ways that make sense for what we knew to coexist with what we know now. Plus, people forget that in-game sources can be inaccurate intentionally. Characters can lie, books can lie. That whole thing
It just goes to show they're not good enough to make it not feel like a retcon.
See also Minfilia and Urianger explaining Primals, what they are, and how they work in ARR, and how we later discovered that these characters speaking so authoritatively...didn't actually know what they were talking about and had been working based on guesses.
@@tophergerkey that's a perfect example of what I mean, without proper context it might seem like a retcon when infact it's just the characters having a limited or incomplete idea of things. lore directly tied to louisoix seems a little too obvious to overlook there has to be more to the story. or maybe i'm wrong
@@M-E-l6q no, you are correct. But the jury is out on the stones. We just won’t know until the story concludes.
i really enjoyed this! thank you for the super chilled lore videos.. i can just sit back and listen.. your so much more relaxing and informative to listen to than audible xDD
8:14-8:50
Loving the discussion, though I am somewhat confused. I don't understand where you're coming from on this point. The point of us, as players, not being able to use Dynamis in our jobs and everywhere else. My reasons for being confused are as follows:
1. Ultima-Thule was able to be immensly altered due to a single person's influence over Dynamis, i.e. Thancred making Ultima-Thule a physical place through his sacrifice, which the others built upon through their own command of Dynamis using their emotions when they sacrificed themselves.
2. In Elpis, when we learn about the Elpis flowers from Hermes for the first time, one of the player's choices to say was, "Well, I have been known to surpass my limits by force of will", or something very similar to that effect.
3. In our fight with the Endsinger, after we use our Tank Limit Break to survive the Endsinger's first massive attack, she exclaims, "Dynamis?" in response.
Am I misunderstabding your point in this part of the video? If not, how do you reconcile the points I have made with what you now believe about the function of Dynamis?
Limit Breaks are heavily implied to use *both* Aether and Dynamis based on the lore all around them. He’s made a video talking about this in particular though the way I interpreted it was that: Aether left behind from us using our skills lingers in the air for a time. This is symbolized by the LB gauge filling during combat. That Aether then acts as fuel for the Attack or Spell as the person uses Dynamis to surpass their limits and guide that power into a specific form.
He mentions in this video that others “couldn’t help with visualizing the form” but if people don’t use actions during the animation, you can see everyone do a little cheer when the LB is used.
Let's not forget that Elidibus, in his facade as Warrior of Light in the Seat of Sacrifice trial, also tried and failed to emulate our LB with his own aether-powered "Limit Break", which I remember it being stated (either during or after the trial) to be a failed imitation of the mortals' proper Limit Break.
I think in contrast they are the actual 12 ancients who cast/realized the concept of hydaelyn under Venat’s plan. I remain skeptical they are shades for two reasons: only the watcher is sundered and based on Deryk’s rather existential dialog I expect him to the created familiar of Oschon and a way for him to “cheat” their nonintervention rules.
12:33 The stones "manifested" in their locations by his hand, but that doesn't mean he made them. It could very well be that Louisoix was cooperating with the 12. That he took the marks and placed them where they are today. I'm also a little fuzzy on what "temporal representations" means in this context.
Still it is more then a little retconish.
Cooperation with the Twelve could also go some way to explain Althyk’s symbol appearing in his spell to transport the Warriors of Light into the future.
@@Salt_Mage Althyk is a time god, why wouldn't his symbol be part of a spell that included temporal manipulation?
@@dakotadoyle7573 not all time magic in the game is tied to Althyk, I think they just mean that Althyk specifically helped with the transportation of the WoLs because of his symbol being used in that moment. Not to mention that the Twelve clearly reappear to empower Louisoix into becoming Phoenix immediately after
@@dakotadoyle7573 have we seen any other spells have visual symbols of the 12 appear while casting?
Fun fact The Watcher is said to be Venat's closest one, who was there with her before she was even chosen to be Azem and so on. He's featured in one of the EW Lodestone sidestories as the main character for it. So the Thirteenth being the person closest to Hydaelyn makes a lot of sense for all this related to The Twelve.
Another interpretation for the stones could simply be that Althyk guided Louisoix to make the stones. This is in line with the fact the first part of the raid series states the gods are not allowed to directly intervene. So giving Louisoix insipiration to make these stones fulfills both statements.
The amount of lore discussion going on in the comments are fucking amazing.
i think we can probably think of Louisoix and the symbols of the Twelve as a double retcon..
to elaborate on what i mean, from a historical perspective, the lore of the Twelve was established before 1.0 launched and the concept of Hydaelyn as a deity didn't exist until 2.0 came around. back in 1.0 Hydaelyn was only the name of the planet. so the Twelve being created by Hydaelyn is already a retcon.
Louisoix was introduced for the Seventh Umbral Calamity storyline, which itself was only devised after 1.0 launched for the purposes of remaking FFXIV. i don't really remember now but i think the marks of the twelve were indeed introduced around the time when Louisoix appeared, so lore-wise it is consistent with what he says. maybe to align what he says with 6.3, we can think of him manifesting the symbols as making them appear visible. that also makes more sense given that if he really wanted people to pray to them he wouldnt put some of them in such out of the way places.
As a 1.0 player, if this WAS a lie and was intentional, I'm certain they would have had additional dialogue for those of us who did the Living on a Prayer questline and learned from Louisoix directly that he carved the stones himself to try and help avert the coming Calamity of Dalamud.
But given the fact that the story literally doesn't address it whatsoever, even for Legacy players, this is almost 100% either an unintentional mistake (highly unlikely given Banri Oda's continued involvement with the overall world lore) or a deliberate retcon.
I've had the feeling that the Twelve have been testing how far man has come via the battles. They started out with a false pretense to get us to engage with them in battle (using a pattern we would be familiar with: the world being in danger); and even when it was revealed, we continued to honor their request. Regardless of what we learn in the cutscenes to come for the final raid, we're still going to be fighting the final set of the Twelve.
I've always had the impression that the Twelve had something to do with that council of the Ancients (the convocation, I believe? It seems to be a common theory as well).
Granted, there's also the question of Deryk's true identity and that Opo-opo with him (some thinking he's Oschon, others thinking the Opo-opo is Oschon).
I have my own guesses, but there really isn't enough information, with the exception of some foreshadowing that he might "disappear never to be seen again", for me to say anything with certainty (unlike with the Nier raids where I thought 2P was sketchy from the start).
I'd go out on a limb and say that the Opo-opo is Oschon, who was perhaps wounded either by either a lack of faith (now that we know that's what gives the Twelve their form) or during the Final Days; and that Deryk might just sort of a part of Oschon projected/created to either find us (the Warrior of Light) and lead us to Omphalos since the Twelve technically, even in their animal forms, aren't supposed to communicate with anyone...nor have we passed Oschon's test to get a full audience with him (as we can't speak to those of the Twelve we have not yet met, and they won't speak to us).
Maybe it's all to see how strong man has become, perhaps in part to having a patron deity being one of the Twelve and what their influence can do.
The WoL tends to be the "representative" of humanity more often than not, after all.
I'm sure there are a ton of holes in my theory, but it's really just a guess...plus something I think would be cool if it were true.
Honestly, the actions of the Twelve match those of a giddy child who's just met a long lost friend after they came out of a coma. Their actions very much match up with those who are wanting to *play* with people that can take it and want to share the whole truth, but that said truth requires some preparation and a strong will to endure it. If their gambit fails, then they got to play with the chosen of Hydaelin. If the plan succeeds, then their vigil no longer needs be a lonely one and they could potentially walk alongside mortals, knowing that we can handle it.
It's quite difficult to say, though, and this is merely speculation.
Can't the retcon you mention about the stones just be that Althyk is working through Louisoux?
Why else would he give Althyk so much trust when attempting to use his time magic on the warriors of light in Carteneau to save them?
He probably had a deep connection to him.
You shouldn't take the words of people as fact when creating theories, unless you can back up Louisoux's words.
The same can be said about how the fundamental rules of aether, dynamis, elemental aspects, the lifestream, stars, the void and memories.
Whatever Eorzea believes how these entities work, for example what is written in Sharlayan books or by their scholars, it will only be based on their understanding.
If SE writers explain in future how some of these fundamental rules act in specific quests, and this contradicts to the common understanding, it is NOT retconning.
It is not retconning, because it only means that the collective knowledge of Eorzea is incomplete and that they were wrong.
Actually, the thing about Louisoix making the stones might not be accurate. The text example that's provided mearly states that by his hand did the stones "manifest". This could be interpreted as him creating them, but it's more then likely just archaic prose to state that he brought them to Eorzea. The stones might already have existed, he just transported them.
Surprise surprise would be that Louisoix is somekind of Familiar/Avatar of the Watcher himself.
Yes, he did the stones, like 10 thousand years ago shortly after the sundering under the orders of the Watcher in his previous incarnation.
Like an Aether charged Gandalf of some sorts.
I think the reason the Watcher on the moon looks the way he does is because nobody knew he was there, much less what his purpose is. The Twelve, on the other hand, have had a much larger role in mortal culture. The Twelve may have originally looked like the Watcher until people started to agree on what they should look like.
As for why they want us to fight them... If they were created to subtly teach humanity the traits needed to overcome the Endsinger then their purpose is fulfilled. Either they feel it's time to be released from their duty or they wish to have their shackles loosened a little so they can finally walk among mortals as more than tiny creatures.
It’s possible that the changes to the lore are intentional for two reasons:
1) because it helps anchor the twelve more firmly to the realm, showing that they were around for a exceedingly long time,
And
2) because while we’ll honor 1.0 and the players who stuck with it, that story doesn’t really exist anymore.
There have been a lot of changes to the lore since 1.0, with the most prominent being how the Echo works.
So while I’m someone who never played 1.0, my mind can parse both stories being true by interpreting this as “the stones were there the whole time, but Lousoix brought them to everyone’s attention and established them as sites of worship”.
The 12 are either venats group from when they formed hydaelin, or they're creations with a soul made by venat that are supposed to represent her companions like with the watcher. There are dialogues in the game from an NPC in elpis that is literally the same as what comes out in the new raid. Maira is Nymeia
The game flat out telling us "That sounds like the watcher!" makes me suspicious. That is exactly the sort of hook they would normally let us theorycraft on for a patch cycle. Blurting that out seems... suspicious. Though it does add up.
I had been telling people that the 12 were ancients for some time and this confirms it. I need to do more side quests in Elpis but I know I have met two of them already. I believe they were part of the MSQ but it may have been a side/blue quest. I wonder if the epigraph is their equivalent of the convocation's "job stones"?
I was pretty sure the creation myths were largely bunk when I saw that allegedly Hydaelyn "created" Midgardsormr to guard Silvertear lake.
I think the home of the gods including the Omphalos and their realms are the remnants of Elpis and the Hyperboreia. They live in the holodeck.
The two confirmed ones would be Nymeia (Maira) and Althyk (Alkaios) from the side story chain "Unleash the Beast". This is the quest where you assist those two with creating the behemoth and giving that apex creation, its apex ability "Meteor". This was hinted at in the raid by those mobs being the adds before you fight them. Nymeia and Maira also say the exact same line about the other about not being able to show their feelings correctly.
Now, there is also Charmion and Sokles you meet as part of the touring elpis side quest. There is no confirmation, but I believe these two are Menphina and Thaliak based on Charmion dragging you around and worrying about the warrior of light in a loving / compassionate manner worrying about the density of their Aether. Sokles then creates a fruit juice for you to drink and is encouraging you to follow Charmion around and learn more about Etheirys which directly correlates with his saying on the epigraph of quenching man's thirst and watering their minds with wisdom.
So many little fun things hiding in Elpis and I would wager the other 8 of the twelve are there as well with less subtle hints.
Althyk and Nymeia have some dialogue that is 1 to 1 identical to some dialogue between a brother and sister ancient in elpis.
Also those big horned beasts that we fight after nophica are proto behemoths and we help an ancient design the current form in the same quests.
There's an audio glitch at 4:47 that nearly gave me a heart attack. Fair warning to anyone checking the comments before watching
8:45 So in SHB 6.3 before we fight Elidibus where we create the summoning circle for the party, Elidibus calls it an invocation of eld. And prior to that when we fight Hades G'raha Tia does his summoning to summon our party. So who/what/how are we summoning when we summon our trial party canonically?
Also, during the endsinger fight, when you use the Tank LB3 to survive the big planet attack she reacts with the line "Dynamis?" I mean, it is implied a few times in the 4.0 story that we are indeed able to utilize dynamis in an impactful way.
Hydaelyn (planet/star) became Etheirys in Endwalker
1.0 is for all intents and purposes none canon, they pick and choose what they need from it.
What I was excited to find was the origin of the Gridanian Goldsmith so now we know where he came from but his fate is still unknown
I have a few possibilities for the seeming contradiction in the lore of the twelvestones.
1) If I recall correctly, Althyk mentions that their eternal stones have changed form over the ages, but have been everpresent. It is possible that referring to them as "eternal stones" simply refers to the form they take today, or is a metaphorical name, and what he refers to is more metaphysical, and became present in the twelvestones when Louisoix carved their symbols into appropriate locations.
2) Louisoix may have been unknowingly guided by the twelve to carve their symbols into the locations where they are found. As the location of their eternal stones, those who would pray at them would have the strongest connection with their god, and empower Louisoix's summoning even further.
3) Louisoix may have, in his own research and wandering, figured out that those stones had special connections to the gods innately, and marked them with their symbols.
4) Louisoix may only be telling a half-truth. He may have carved the symbols into them, but found some way to entreat the gods directly, receiving this plan from them, along with the location of their stones.
After watching your video I feel like the end of this raid is the twelve are worried.
Due to our actions The Watcher no longer has a purpose.
The Epigraph to bind the gods to function now no longer applies to one of them, and it is now possible it could happen to the rest.
They need to be certain we "the chosen of Hydealyn" are the best choice to help forge a new epigraph and give them new purpose.
I think the change in the lore is less "Louisoix wasn't involved" and now more "Louisoix took existing places of power and co-opted them" A small change that lets us go to the marks of the twelve without being burdened by 1.0 lore that only some players will know.
I think with the star saved and the final days averted, the twelve are ready to be done, and are looking for someone to shatter their yoke. Especially with how Oshan is slated for last or second to last, they want you to understand who they are, what they do, and why it would likely be ok for them to just stop now.
There could be an angle of "to fool my enemies, i have to fool my allies" angle from grandpa Louie.
2:02 Well, unless they actively said so in a live letter or something, the Watcher is guessed to be the 13th god, as the story stops before we go to ask and confirm.
Did it specifically state that dynamis was responsible for the alterations of the Twelve's forms over time? I took it more as an offshoot of creation magic. In order to make a primal, it requires faith and conviction. The thoughts and faith of the supplicants alters the end result, like in the Eden raids. If you have the creation of a primal (or created being, or whatever Hydaelyn technically counts as) that is being supported by the prayer and belief of their supplicants, then it makes sense that the Twelve would alter over time based on the shifting beliefs of their supplicants over time.
My current running theory is this: They know they have been changed and altered by dynamis as well as they care for the people of Eorzea. They can't just go down whenever they choose in order to "set the record strait" as that would just fuel the fire so to speak. Calling on us as adventures to me looks odd until I wondered: Could they be wanting to.. die? or in a sense, be reset back to the originals they were to then do it the right way? I also feel, though I have no evidence of this that the wondering adventurer person that has been helping us is a god, but doesn't know it. Oschon fits his description the best as he is a wonderer by his own omission, and looks like a ranger (Though we never have seen him draw a weapon). The final unnamed 13th being the Watcher on the moon makes sense though why he is unchanged to me is obvious. He has no stone as far as we know on Eorzea so he is not changed or prayed too for dynamis to work on him.
The whole adventurer guy being Oschon came from me reading his bits of speech after you read the epitaph. It seemed to me almost too perfect. he is to "wonder and share in men's solitude" but the gods were never allowed to wander like that before so the only way they could is... if he wiped his memory to do so. That's my thoughts anyway. Thank you for making these videos friend
I suspect that the retcon about stones would be as such:
Louisoix made these stones as anchors for the Primal versions of the Twelve yes, but with the Seventh Umbral Calamity and years since it happened, these stones became the objects of worship of the Twelve for Eorzean people and fairly recently became the holders of the knowledge.
About the limit break, can't it be only influenced by the character's *wish* only similarly to what the scions do in ultima thule ? I do think that it being a result of the channeling of residual ambiant aether seems more plausible rather than dynamis but couldn't that be another source of *power* ?
If I would say what happened with Louisoix was not a hard retcon but a softone. A clarification even. Louisoix manifested the locations for the rocks, but those were always the location of their divine. For example, Water Dowsing. Louisoix dows the location to create the rocks, but the gods magic was always there. It's not the first time such writing is used in stories either. For example in Star Wars when Obi-wan told Luke that Darth Vader killed his father. Just to learn in the next movie that Vader was his father. How did Obi-wan respond to this contradiction/retcon? The line, "From a certain point of view." Thus was the contradiction no longer a ret-con but a clarification that Obi-wan didn't want that Father knowledge to cloud Luke from needing to kill his father.
About the stones themselves, I wouldn't really say what we learned in the new patch contradicts the old lore.
it is made very clear that these -stones-
Were cast down by the twelve as information keepers.
However the Symbols upon them were made by the old man.
It is likely that the grand magus sensed something about these stones and thus made these marks for his plan.
if you consider the positions of said stones, it would be very strange that he just managed to make people worship them with a simple symbol.
and then managed to gather enough energy.
All of these locations were likely already in some form or capacity sacred to the people.
Basically the words of the gods and the words of Lou does not contradict one and another, the Gods never said they made the Symbols but rather the Stones themselves and that no matter what shape or form they'll take, they will always be keepers of hidden information.
Maybe with the stones just a thought Loui played them off as he created them to get people to go to location known and already had the base and tied to the 12. But what come out during the patch is the real lore behind them?
Though you see this with Authors all the time Anne MacFree (I know I spelled her last name wrong so very sorry) did something similar with a historical figure in the original Dragonriders of Pern Trilagy with Merida the queen rider who died along with her dragon after traveling across purn to deliver a cure to the Plague they were dealing with at the time while fighting thread. When Merida's Ride came out there very first page changed everything that had been established about this key figure that shaped the history of Pern. And it all started with the Hold that she was from. from the start Merida was said to be from Ruatha hold and most Perns that could talk to all Dragons were from Ruatha. Anne in her other books did a lot with Psi powers and the Ruathan line was very tied to being among the only Holds that had any active Psi sensitivity still on Pern. THough when it came time for Merida's Book to be published Merida was from Southrn Bowle Hold and that was one of the many errors that Anne made with Pern's history thought with most of them she had a good reason. Merida was just one example she didn't have a good reason. It was just how the book came out.
Anne was later sited as saying she was guilting of changing the history of Pern in some of the earlier books because was the worst at keeping her own Notes. The Writers of FFXIV have 10 years of notes to sift through and while this might seen as lazy it may have been a case of pitching a new corse of the lore and not so much a retcon as making existing lore fit better with plans coming out. A trend I noticed with the colation of the crystal tower and ShB is that the Alliance raids play as a foundation that happens later on. there are so many Loaded guns that they can keep going for much longer than just another 10 years.
All louisoix said was he went around and created the marks of the 12 on the stones, not the stones themselves. Specifically he also says they can't just pray to the 12 wherever, so if he just made random stones and placed them around wherever, he would be going against his own ideas. IMO the stones were always there, but they didn't have the symbols on them until Louisoix came along. He was attuned enough to aether that he was most likely drawn to these stones specifically.
I have no idea how one could square this believe that dynamis usage fueling limit breaks can only I happen if all users wish that to be so alongside the fact that we accidently and unknowingly use dynamis in our limit breaks with Endsinger. The implication of that fight is that limit breaks are dynamis fueled and we've been unknowingly using it through our acts of extreme emotion with the help of our group mates to manage it
Maybe there's room for both ideas. The twelve, who are beings of aether, may have created the stones or the locations where they reside, or perhaps that's where connections to that particularly god's aetherial stream or essence is strongest. Louisoix may have been led by the twelve to these specific locations or found them himself for that reason in 1.0. If you were going to summon forth primals for the twelve, probably the best place to do it would be at those locations where ties to them were the strongest. I can then see Louisoix identifying those areas with markers or physical "stones" to point them out to others to serve as an anchor for prayers of the followers, right at the ideal summoning location.
Or the writers could have made an honest writing mistake. 😂 There is so much lore to wrangle in this game's decade long history.
I'd like to think an easy way to fuse both new and old lore is that Althyk subconsciously manipulated Louisoix to 'repair' the stones he had already made to used as beacons of worship, but considering even the location and appearance of the stones were changed between 1.0 and 2.0, it's more likely that they indeed retconned grandpa out.
If something is untrue, it isn't necessarily a lie. "Lie" suggests intent, and a person can be mistaken about something without meaning to deceive anyone about it.
While the whole idea of the marks of the Twelve actually being created by the Twelve themselves definitely feels like a retcon, there technically is a way for them to explain away the discrepancy. Althyk only mentions that they scattered stones across Eorzea that hold information, not that they created them with the symbols upon them. The passage from Louisoix mentions engraving "ancient stone" with the symbols as representations of the Twelve as well as calling these sites, "where they lie in slumber." So it could have been that Louisoix found the stones and engraved Eorzea's symbols for the Twelve onto them to designate them as sites of worship. How Louisoix found out that these stones were actually tied to the Twelve I have no idea.
If they are implying that the stones were created with the marks of the Twelve on them, that brings up another issue. That issue being the symbols themselves. They mention that Menphina's hound Dalamud only came into being after Dalamud started being worshiped and yet her symbol shows two moons. G'raha has a line mentioning that Halone's spear and shield are symbolic of her being a goddess of war and her symbol depicts spears. He also mentions Nymeia's spinning wheel as being a mortal idea of a goddess of fate and her symbol is a spinning wheel. The symbols of the Twelve must be man-made and not something the gods created. The only reason they show up in the phantom realm is because the Omphalos is shaped to be a depiction of the Seventh Heaven, a mortal contrivance.
The big aetherial heebie jeebies that made everyone forget the original warrior(s) of light also hit the devs and made them forget the old lore, that's the lore explanation.
I think that this continuity error was likely intentional, but even if it wasn't, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it becomes addressed later on in 6.5. While the writers have been prone to making mistakes from time to time, as is natural, they also will take that in stride as something that could have been true from a certain point of view. Like a lot of people have pointed out, it could be spun that Louisoix's involvement in these stones was limited to just marking them for visibility. Or who knows, maybe Louisoix had more involvement with the twelve than we know.
My thoughts are certainly still toward the "they just want to have fun with their children" theory, given how much they're enjoying battling us, though it is possible it's related to the 7th Heaven (though I feel we're gonna see a clarification that it is, or is on, the moon); as for the stones, that seems quite rather odd of a thing to change in such a way, so I feel they may genuinely have forgotten the original lore on them... as to what that means if they realize before 6.5, who knows?
My current theory is the Seventh Heaven is connected to that pedestal in the back of the Phantom Realm, the one not aligned to one of the elemental heavens
End goal of the 12? Well, here’s a crazy theory.
There were 14 members of the convocation. Each representing a facet to control so that the world runs stable. What if the 12 + The Watcher + Hydelyn were the new 14. She just based the new system on the old one. And now that Hydelyn is gone, she has left everything to us, the player. So the Gods are now ready to recruit us into the inner circle.
Also Azem was a facet of the people, made to travel the lands and experience them. In this new system, who else would represent the people more than if every new generation there would be a WoL chosen by the gods to represent the people?
I think that’s pretty sick.
I’d be intrigued if Louisoix’s stone inscriptions and the power of Eorzea’s faith altered all of the 12’s own belief.
We know it takes time and numbers, but I think also *intensity*.
It’s possible Althyk must’ve been claiming something that all of Eorzea believes. Additionally, to read the epigraphs requires using tools given by the 12 anyway. So in short, we’re using corrupted tools with corrupted instructions for a corrupted answer.
So, I don’t think it’s actually a retcon as much as seeing the very rules introduced in 6.3 already taking place. A new myth was made and so much of the events of Dalamud’s fall is obscured (for example, no one can remember who the WoL is).
At least that’s that’s my means of reconciling the situation.
Guess we’ll see in 6.5!
Maybe louixoi used to work with the twelves, if the people of sharlyan were aware of venat in the ethereal sea maybe she told them about the twelves and louixoix worked with the twelve by creating those stones for them but also to use for his simmoning of fake twelves if they are not permitted to act for mankind directly ( im not that well lore versed so i know i might be walking on eggs right now)
I wonder... When you mentioned all that of Menphina and Dalamud, I found myself curious of what would occur to the others among the Twelve if one of them no longer had any believers, or what Menphina may do or feel if Dalamud was no longer believed in?
Would the others weep and mourn? Would they forget entirely? Or mayhaps the deity who lost all believers would simply return to their original being? But what of those like Dalamud? Would the Twelve feel sadness?
8:20 Just curious, how did you come to the conclusion that our limit breaks are aetheric in nature when the endsinger reacts to the tank LB3 to survive the first oblivion with "Dynamis?"
Keep up the awesome work on these lore videos!
also hinted in elpis to meteion that we can "transcend our limits" when we're talking about dynamis
Ouch my poor ear! There's a weird audio glitch thing at 4:47
If you wanna be pedantic, what Liousoix says doesn't necessarily say that he CREATED them, only that by his own hand did they manifest. So by a certain interpretation, they could have already existed and he simply called them forth (ignoring how he knew about them in the first place, and how he made them manifest lol)
I mean isn't it outright confirmed twice in the msq that you transcending your limits is dynamis? That casting a limit break is through conviction and a desire to tear down the enemy, shield your allies, or save them all? It's never possible to do this unless you are forced into it
Back when endwalker first came out, we had to fight Hydalyn herself in order to prove that we were capable of defeating Metion. And then her aether scattered and she was no more. What if the 12 are doing the same? What if there’s a big final battle that will allow the 12 to rest? With Zodiark and Metion gone, the 12 can leave the source to us.
I’m stretching a bit when I say this, but there’s another possibility. With the 12, the watcher, and Hydalyn, there’s 14 gods total. And there’s 13 reflections and the source, also a total of 14. Perhaps after some big battle, the 14 shards will merge (safely) to become one big whole again. The ascians were forcing this before its time, which is also why we have the calamities. I find it hard to believe that Hydalyn would tear the world asunder without a plan to put it back together. Again, a stretch, but still a possibility
Well, even if the creation myth for Althyk and Nymeia is written in a greek mythology way. The fact is that Maria and Alkaios were indeed siblings in Elpis and were the ancients that Venat used to model Nymeia and Althyk.
In its entirety the creation myth is false, but that's because it's fiction. Some of it is indeed true, which means that the relationship and potentially some of the events of the story are true. The text was decorated to appear more like a mythological text about the creation of the gods, just like how the greek mythology was written by ancient greeks.
I think you're mistaken regarding limit break, you don't need time and numbers for Dynamis to do anything, to change the entire universe like the Endsinger song yes you need that to change the shape of the gods and their respective heavens yes, but small changes are not as difficult, like the Elpis flowers which change colors immediately, the limit break is a power gained by Dynamis as its heavily hinted at in the game if not it was out right said. The players don't need to imagine how the limit break would look they just need to channel their thoughts and beliefs to the specific player and only believe they can do an exceptionally strong attack how the attack looks depends on the player each with their respective job, again the endsinger didn't imagine each monster the Dynamis would create its that's why the people turned in Thavnair turned to deformed versions of manuysa. Also, again, the Elpis flower changes color vased on your feelings. The person is not imagining a specific color. That's my only point limit breaks are a result of Dynamis.
I think it's possible that Althyk created the stones through Louisoix. If I remember correctly he did not say *at which point in time* he created them, so maybe it was shortly before the calamity.
I have the theory, that Deryk is either Oschon, because he's wandering around restlessly, or the Nameless One, because he keeps distance and watches. Either way, he talks like the Twelve in the way he says he will not go against the will of mortals (and monkeys for that matter) and will disappear once this is over.
It's interesting to think, that we only get access to Omphalos, once Deryk appears. I suppose one can only enter with the help of a deity. Yes, the Twelve wanted to meet and fight us, but Deryk was the one to show us when and where and to get us there.