I want to see someone make plate armor than put a layer of scale armor over it edit: I like wearing chain mail under my plate as well... so I was wondering can this defend against stabs and cuts
TheTreacherousBean Awesome! Thanks man. You make awesome videos. Im planning an early 15th century kit with a bascinet like this and a similar cuirass to what you made, so I'm going to be using your how-to vids as a reference for making the helmet, cuirass, and gambeson.
Any advice for making my own patterns for this? I'm planning on building this sometime in the future and want my armor to fit well (and yes I know about the soda boxes) awesome video! Love your channel
Like your use of steel pipe for sinking or raising. There is another cheaper more adaptive method available. Get another log round and use a portable grinder, with or without a carving chainsaw loop or just a chainsaw and hollow the top and bottom with various profiles. Old used bowling balls are useful as are mill grinding balls for anvil or hammer. Pictures of Milanese armor shops show such scooped out log sections. Congratulations, your coat shows good movement and flexibility!
Thank you :) And indeed, I used to use a log for dishing before I made these forms. I would be interested in seeing these forms in the Milanese shops if you can give me more info :)
I have a Japanese Sengoku Periodstyle Tosei Gusoku Dou (a Japanese Cuirass made of the solid breast plate and the solid back plate), although the straps for hanging the Dou on my shoulders are made of steel plates as part of armor, I can attach them and even tie the side of the back plate and the breast plate together, before lift the Dou over my head and put it down to my shoulders. My head even be able to dive up among the back plate, the breast plate and the shoulder armor. Perhaps, it is because I have a smaller head than an average man.
Hi! Question: How did you put in the rivets and what kind did you use? You dont show that in the video and I am very interested in that. Im familiar with putting 2 pieces of metal togehter, but to cloth....? Without destroying it or burn it and also without the rivets standing beeing that flat? I dont get it. Would appreciate an answer. Thumbs up and subscribed.
Of course! I used roofing nails which are normally used to nail shingles to roofs, but since they have big flat heads they make an ideal rivet for securing fabric to metal. I like them as well because you can set them on any anvil face, no special tool required.
Hey, great channel! Do you have any evidence of "uncovered" coats-of-plates? As if the plates were riveted to an inner textile or leather backing? Cheers!
Thank you very much. Although coats of plates with an outer covering were almost certainly the most common form, there are a few depictions of what appear to be the plates riveted to the outside of the foundation material: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/HimmelkronOrlamuende.JPG armourinart.com/media/armourinart.com/original/248.jpg manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/71-76.jpg armourinart.com/15/250/ manuscriptminiatures.com/4042/11507/ These were all taken from discussions about uncovered coats of plates from the XIV European armor group on facebook (facebook.com/groups/xivcenturyeuropeanarmour/search/?query=uncovered), which I can highly recommend. Of the survivals there are, such as the Wisbys, ingolstadt, Chalkis hoard, etc., I believe they have all been proven to have had the coverings on the outside, along with the majority of artwork depicting them. I hope this helps!
Thank you very much for the answer! I am actually the same person who posted this thread in XIV century european armour. Some of the commentators assumed that those manuscripts being depictions of Bible scenes display the authors concept of "fantasy" armour. I personally tend to believe that there were "uncovered" coats of plates, although as you said less frequently, as manuscript authors tended to draw contemporary armours. I assume that for practical reasons it is better to have the textile on the outside ( protection against rust and so on), but uncovered coats of plates should have existed. I hope that somenoe does a reconstruction of such an armour. Keep up the good work! Cheers!
Small world hey? I just recently remembered that at the Wisby site there was a lamellar style armor found, which could possibly give more credence to uncovered armor types. I've got some plates cut out from an old coat of plates that never got riveted into a foundation collecting dust, maybe I'll give it a shot sometime. And thanks :)
Apart from the aforementioned images, I also found this italian image: armourinart.com/5121/15857/ It is unclear what torso protection the men-at-arms are wearing, but it seems to be uncovered.
On the first one showing a crucifixion it looks almost like a representation of some sort of tooled leather. Then again I don't know much about that. The second one is definitely a compelling piece of evidence though.
Hello :) . To smooth it I hammered the inside with a hammer which has rounded edges while the outside of the breastplate was against a flat anvil. This is about 1.5mm mild steel :)
I made these specific ones when I was in high school, they're just a small section (only an inch or two) of pipe steel welded to a flat plate that has mounting holes in it. One thing I've noticed about these is that they tend to mark the steel if not beveled enough , but they come out relatively easy in the planishing process. I've used cast iron dishing forms and the bottoms of gas canisters before in other shops and I would recommend those more than what I have here. If neither of those are available then there's nothing wrong with using a wood dishing stump
Thank you! The whole thing took about eight days overall, give or take a day or so. I'd be interested in hearing more about this armoring tournament though...
Living Manuscript its the dragon master in my province for the larp amtgard, basically a large crafting competition with various catagories.... also how do you measure your chest/ neckline for the breastplate? I cant find that anywhere
That sounds very interesting! On this piece specifically I didn't actually take any measurements when making the patterns. All I did was trial and error with a piece of cardboard, which would change depending on your body shape. Once you know how the metal behaves and you're comfortable with your processes of moving and shaping it then making a pattern out of cardboard becomes much easier.
Just an idea. For the back plate material was hard LEATHER that would mold to the shape of the back, be flexible and comfortable when carrying a back pack
It's just a piece of steel piping (with a very beveled edge) welded to a flat plate of steel that I put together when I was in high school. There are some other ways as well like using pieces of wood with a dish carved into it.
I'm glad you like it! This was as close of an approximation that I could do at the time that I made it, even now I can think of things I could do better. Everyone will likely have a different interpretation, so I try not to make any definitive conclusions.
Washing coats of plate is somewhat problematic, in fact, I'm still trying to figure that out for myself after I fell in the mud a little while back. Generally speaking, the canvas/outer covering does a good job of keeping the plate clean, but for the inside I've come to painting the plates, this keeps them from rusting. If no paint, then probably just oil the inside just like you would on the outside of bare plate armor.
Ok, with the leather it looks just a bit better in my opinion but to be honest, who has the money for this much leather? And if I had I would reather make myself a pair of some nice boots or pouches.
The rivets on this are just regular roofing nails :) . Though I've never made my own rivets in any large umber, I usually see it done by working the metal hot.
I just use standard roofing nails since they have large heads that hold the fabric or leather onto the steel very well. The length of them doesn't really matter too much since they will be snipped off to be peened.
Have you looked at the manuscript the Romance of Alexander ?. It’s from 1338-1342 England and I’m going to try and replicate the CoP from the manuscript. It’s similar but it’s a bit shorter than this CoP
Indeed! Bodley 264 is one of my favorites for armor. The coats of plate in it have a very nice profile to them, a bit more subtle than mine here, and the more I look at the retention chains in the manuscript the more I am tempted to add them to this cuirass, much like on the original. Best of luck on your build!
TheTreacherousBean and also I have a quick question I know for this kit you used the Charles de blois pourpoint but my predates that by quite a bit . And from images it seems like the garment was longer and suggestions of what kind of garment I should go for ?
TheTreacherousBean modern chivalry is a forum for medievalist I just recently joined and you should too . There’s many experts and this forum really is why knight errant started making videos believe it or not . A lot of very informative people in the forum . It’s at Www.modernchivalry.org
Generally I tend to use mild steel since it's very forgiving to work with and I am familiar with it. I try to avoid "mystery metals" if I can as they have, in my experience, ranged from terrible to slightly less terrible.
No it is certainly fit for most fighting, maybe not for that heavy bohurt stuff, but I have fought with steel weapons and taken some nasty hits without any issues or the armor deforming. TeutonicPenguin tends to be pretty good about uploading the fight videos, this one is from our most recent tournament: ua-cam.com/video/gABsjuBudgU/v-deo.html I understand that mid steel is similar to most steel used in historical 14th century armors as far as carbon content and whatnot goes. Hope this helps!
cool , but it bothers me wearing plates over mail. seems like missed opportunity to connect plates with mail rings and save lotta weight. mail only protects the gaps anyways. do you know of that constructin being used in europe? i only found asian examples.
You're definitely onto something there! Arrangements like this, with plate components worn over maille, were common in the earlier days of plate armor as it's a robust way to ensure that there aren't any gaps. Not too long after plate exploded in popularity they started using methods like voiders, which are small bits of maille sewn onto arming garments where there were gaps in the plate, which certainly was to save weight. As for plates connected to each other with rings, as in many Aisian examples, I believe that method was adopted in the 16th century in some circumstances but it never quite was more popular than older methods.
Thankfully not! The breastplate part overlaps the highest fauld, which is shaped very slightly anticlastically so that it mates nicely. Unfortunately I didn't show that part in the video.
In a way! Brigandine is a flexible name. Some people consider brigandine to only refer to armor with a high number of small plates, but the construction method is the same; plates riveted to a foundational material :)
@@LivingManuscript thanks, I wanted to make sure. You see I’m an Amature smith and I wanted to start simple, and after doing some research Brigadine seemed simpler than other types of metal armor since if you screw up on a plate of brigandine you just throw the plate away rather than just throwing away a whole chest plate and starting over
@@The_Nailsmith of course :) . Interestingly, many historical brigandines were made from pieces of other armor that were cut up and recycled into brigandine plates. Among surviving brigandines, individual plate are different thicknesses and have extra holes from their previous uses
Not Welsh, I'm afraid. In fact until you mentioned it I never actually saw the similarity my little icon has with the Welsh flag haha. Funny how things work out
pretty athletic...I haven't been able to do what you did for...hmm, thirty years was the last time, I think....stay fit! I think being athletic and focusing on war stuff goes hand in hand and adds more credibility. Nothing is more annoying than an out of shape person ranting on how to fight and such yet the only time they run is to the refrigerator...
Definitely! I also find that trying to possess a comparable level of fitness hugely increases my understanding of arms and armor. Being able to practice hema twice a week has been a massive help.
Yeah I suppose hema is much more enjoyable than those things. I know there are a few clubs in Florida, have you checked the HEMA alliance club finder? That is how I found the clubs in my area. www.hemaalliance.com/club-finders
>Regular uneducated paesant: Armor is so heavy and restricting, they used cranes to get knights on horses.
>This Chad of a nobleman: 0:41
I’ve found my new favorite channel.
Jake Jordan great channel
I want to see someone make plate armor than put a layer of scale armor over it edit: I like wearing chain mail under my plate as well... so I was wondering can this defend against stabs and cuts
Would really like to see more videos of this full harness.
I'll do it just for you, Mr. VectorBlade
TheTreacherousBean Awesome! Thanks man. You make awesome videos. Im planning an early 15th century kit with a bascinet like this and a similar cuirass to what you made, so I'm going to be using your how-to vids as a reference for making the helmet, cuirass, and gambeson.
Any advice for making my own patterns for this? I'm planning on building this sometime in the future and want my armor to fit well (and yes I know about the soda boxes) awesome video! Love your channel
Like your use of steel pipe for sinking or raising. There is another cheaper more adaptive method available. Get another log round and use a portable grinder, with or without a carving chainsaw loop or just a chainsaw and hollow the top and bottom with various profiles. Old used bowling balls are useful as are mill grinding balls for anvil or hammer. Pictures of Milanese armor shops show such scooped out log sections. Congratulations, your coat shows good movement and flexibility!
Thank you :) And indeed, I used to use a log for dishing before I made these forms. I would be interested in seeing these forms in the Milanese shops if you can give me more info :)
Wonderful as always first time I've heard someone reproducing this style of cop
Thank you, I really liked the shape of these types of coats and I just had to make one
What is the gage of your steel?
Dude why you got a pic of matt easton on ur profile lol.
Colten Lester it’s a gif technically but UA-cam doesn’t show it
I have a Japanese Sengoku Periodstyle Tosei Gusoku Dou (a Japanese Cuirass made of the solid breast plate and the solid back plate), although the straps for hanging the Dou on my shoulders are made of steel plates as part of armor, I can attach them and even tie the side of the back plate and the breast plate together, before lift the Dou over my head and put it down to my shoulders. My head even be able to dive up among the back plate, the breast plate and the shoulder armor. Perhaps, it is because I have a smaller head than an average man.
“King Harlus has joined the party”
We need more butter
@@EDoge1231 ah shit he’s preparing another feast
good job but where do you get your templates?
Thanks, usually I draft my own patterns, though there are some good ones at the Armor Archive (armourarchive.org/patterns/ )
Great work! I saw you at Ice breaker!
Badass dude. I love it!
I love how in the background near the end you can hear me shout, "ow fuck!"
It's the song of your people
Nope, it's our battle cry
What do you wear under this coat of plates? Some kind of gambeson?
Hi! Question:
How did you put in the rivets and what kind did you use? You dont show that in the video and I am very interested in that. Im familiar with putting 2 pieces of metal togehter, but to cloth....?
Without destroying it or burn it and also without the rivets standing beeing that flat? I dont get it.
Would appreciate an answer.
Thumbs up and subscribed.
Of course! I used roofing nails which are normally used to nail shingles to roofs, but since they have big flat heads they make an ideal rivet for securing fabric to metal. I like them as well because you can set them on any anvil face, no special tool required.
Hey, great channel! Do you have any evidence of "uncovered" coats-of-plates? As if the plates were riveted to an inner textile or leather backing? Cheers!
Thank you very much. Although coats of plates with an outer covering were almost certainly the most common form, there are a few depictions of what appear to be the plates riveted to the outside of the foundation material:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/HimmelkronOrlamuende.JPG
armourinart.com/media/armourinart.com/original/248.jpg
manuscriptminiatures.com/media/manuscriptminiatures.com/original/71-76.jpg
armourinart.com/15/250/
manuscriptminiatures.com/4042/11507/
These were all taken from discussions about uncovered coats of plates from the XIV European armor group on facebook (facebook.com/groups/xivcenturyeuropeanarmour/search/?query=uncovered), which I can highly recommend. Of the survivals there are, such as the Wisbys, ingolstadt, Chalkis hoard, etc., I believe they have all been proven to have had the coverings on the outside, along with the majority of artwork depicting them. I hope this helps!
Thank you very much for the answer! I am actually the same person who posted this thread in XIV century european armour. Some of the commentators assumed that those manuscripts being depictions of Bible scenes display the authors concept of "fantasy" armour. I personally tend to believe that there were "uncovered" coats of plates, although as you said less frequently, as manuscript authors tended to draw contemporary armours. I assume that for practical reasons it is better to have the textile on the outside ( protection against rust and so on), but uncovered coats of plates should have existed. I hope that somenoe does a reconstruction of such an armour. Keep up the good work! Cheers!
Small world hey? I just recently remembered that at the Wisby site there was a lamellar style armor found, which could possibly give more credence to uncovered armor types. I've got some plates cut out from an old coat of plates that never got riveted into a foundation collecting dust, maybe I'll give it a shot sometime. And thanks :)
Apart from the aforementioned images, I also found this italian image:
armourinart.com/5121/15857/
It is unclear what torso protection the men-at-arms are wearing, but it seems to be uncovered.
On the first one showing a crucifixion it looks almost like a representation of some sort of tooled leather. Then again I don't know much about that. The second one is definitely a compelling piece of evidence though.
Can you take it apart and add more plates to turn it into a proper brigandine?
Hello! I wonder how you managed to smoothe the metal to make the breastplate, and what metal and thickness you used?
Hello :) . To smooth it I hammered the inside with a hammer which has rounded edges while the outside of the breastplate was against a flat anvil. This is about 1.5mm mild steel :)
@@LivingManuscript thanks! I'll try considering that since I'm trying to make myself some brigandine, considering where I live buying it is expensive
Shame for the steel, I'm considering same thickness, tempered steel, since I'll do medieval combat I need some bigger plates
What are those dishing forms that you are using? I'm trying to decide on what I should do for my own.
I made these specific ones when I was in high school, they're just a small section (only an inch or two) of pipe steel welded to a flat plate that has mounting holes in it. One thing I've noticed about these is that they tend to mark the steel if not beveled enough , but they come out relatively easy in the planishing process. I've used cast iron dishing forms and the bottoms of gas canisters before in other shops and I would recommend those more than what I have here. If neither of those are available then there's nothing wrong with using a wood dishing stump
This is awesome! How long did it take you? Id like to do a full decorated piece for a armouring tournament in august.
Thank you! The whole thing took about eight days overall, give or take a day or so. I'd be interested in hearing more about this armoring tournament though...
Living Manuscript its the dragon master in my province for the larp amtgard, basically a large crafting competition with various catagories.... also how do you measure your chest/ neckline for the breastplate? I cant find that anywhere
That sounds very interesting! On this piece specifically I didn't actually take any measurements when making the patterns. All I did was trial and error with a piece of cardboard, which would change depending on your body shape. Once you know how the metal behaves and you're comfortable with your processes of moving and shaping it then making a pattern out of cardboard becomes much easier.
Just an idea. For the back plate material was hard LEATHER that would mold to the shape of the back, be flexible and comfortable when carrying a back pack
bro you are so underrated
sweet job
Thanks :)
@@LivingManuscript np can't wait to join you guys in the fight =)
How did you make your dishing form?
It's just a piece of steel piping (with a very beveled edge) welded to a flat plate of steel that I put together when I was in high school. There are some other ways as well like using pieces of wood with a dish carved into it.
Thanks bro; your work has inspired me to make my own coat of plates. keep up the good work!
Thank you! I think that the best thing I could hope for my work to do is inspire others!
i love your throat of plates, is it historic or just obvious, and is the build self explanatory?
I'm glad you like it! This was as close of an approximation that I could do at the time that I made it, even now I can think of things I could do better. Everyone will likely have a different interpretation, so I try not to make any definitive conclusions.
Skalligrim would be proud
hi there im also working on a coat of plates, and would like to know, how you wash and/or polish it?
Washing coats of plate is somewhat problematic, in fact, I'm still trying to figure that out for myself after I fell in the mud a little while back. Generally speaking, the canvas/outer covering does a good job of keeping the plate clean, but for the inside I've come to painting the plates, this keeps them from rusting. If no paint, then probably just oil the inside just like you would on the outside of bare plate armor.
A good option I've found is to just take a wet rag and wipe the dirt off. Use small circular motions till it is clean.
Ok, with the leather it looks just a bit better in my opinion but to be honest, who has the money for this much leather? And if I had I would reather make myself a pair of some nice boots or pouches.
What type of steel is that?
This is just 16 gauge mild steel, I can get a lot of it at a time and it's reasonably comparable to some historical metals used in armor.
True well darn
How do you make rivets? A soft steel wire?
The rivets on this are just regular roofing nails :) . Though I've never made my own rivets in any large umber, I usually see it done by working the metal hot.
What are the measurements on the nails you're using as rivets?
I just use standard roofing nails since they have large heads that hold the fabric or leather onto the steel very well. The length of them doesn't really matter too much since they will be snipped off to be peened.
ffs every time i rewatch any of your vids, i get urge to use up my old peace of 1,5mm material i have laying around
Have you looked at the manuscript the Romance of Alexander ?. It’s from 1338-1342 England and I’m going to try and replicate the CoP from the manuscript. It’s similar but it’s a bit shorter than this CoP
Indeed! Bodley 264 is one of my favorites for armor. The coats of plate in it have a very nice profile to them, a bit more subtle than mine here, and the more I look at the retention chains in the manuscript the more I am tempted to add them to this cuirass, much like on the original. Best of luck on your build!
TheTreacherousBean thanks a bunch are you on modern chivalry ?
TheTreacherousBean and also I have a quick question I know for this kit you used the Charles de blois pourpoint but my predates that by quite a bit . And from images it seems like the garment was longer and suggestions of what kind of garment I should go for ?
Steven Good I'm afraid I haven't heard of it, sounds interesting though, what is there to it?
TheTreacherousBean modern chivalry is a forum for medievalist I just recently joined and you should too . There’s many experts and this forum really is why knight errant started making videos believe it or not . A lot of very informative people in the forum . It’s at Www.modernchivalry.org
What kind of material have you used? (metal)
Generally I tend to use mild steel since it's very forgiving to work with and I am familiar with it. I try to avoid "mystery metals" if I can as they have, in my experience, ranged from terrible to slightly less terrible.
So it is not fight proof. Which kind of metal should it be made of to be protective? Have you specifications? Thank you for answering so quickly! :)
No it is certainly fit for most fighting, maybe not for that heavy bohurt stuff, but I have fought with steel weapons and taken some nasty hits without any issues or the armor deforming. TeutonicPenguin tends to be pretty good about uploading the fight videos, this one is from our most recent tournament: ua-cam.com/video/gABsjuBudgU/v-deo.html
I understand that mid steel is similar to most steel used in historical 14th century armors as far as carbon content and whatnot goes.
Hope this helps!
I found somewhere that it should be made of C45 ...
www.mardinus.home.pl/_fr/oferta/oslony_tulowia_01.php?id=242
at first i read goat vs pirates
cool , but it bothers me wearing plates over mail. seems like missed opportunity to connect plates with mail rings and save lotta weight. mail only protects the gaps anyways. do you know of that constructin being used in europe? i only found asian examples.
You're definitely onto something there! Arrangements like this, with plate components worn over maille, were common in the earlier days of plate armor as it's a robust way to ensure that there aren't any gaps. Not too long after plate exploded in popularity they started using methods like voiders, which are small bits of maille sewn onto arming garments where there were gaps in the plate, which certainly was to save weight. As for plates connected to each other with rings, as in many Aisian examples, I believe that method was adopted in the 16th century in some circumstances but it never quite was more popular than older methods.
Liked and subscribed! And Jeez you are cute.
is there a gap between the breastplate and the fauld?
Thankfully not! The breastplate part overlaps the highest fauld, which is shaped very slightly anticlastically so that it mates nicely. Unfortunately I didn't show that part in the video.
do you sell armour?
what type of fabric did you use ?
Two layers of very stout canvas, like it almost stands up on its own haha. I believe it's usually sold as "duck cloth".
Thx. Recently started putting the plates on my fabric but the cloth started ripping. 😑
just finished it today man. thx for the vid could not have done it without it.
That's great to hear! I'm glad I could help!
@@jeremyherbert398 Maybe add a washer in between the nail head and the fabric to increase the surface that the fabric has to resist tearing... ?
:/
So is this brigandine?
In a way! Brigandine is a flexible name. Some people consider brigandine to only refer to armor with a high number of small plates, but the construction method is the same; plates riveted to a foundational material :)
@@LivingManuscript thanks, I wanted to make sure. You see I’m an Amature smith and I wanted to start simple, and after doing some research Brigadine seemed simpler than other types of metal armor since if you screw up on a plate of brigandine you just throw the plate away rather than just throwing away a whole chest plate and starting over
@@The_Nailsmith of course :) . Interestingly, many historical brigandines were made from pieces of other armor that were cut up and recycled into brigandine plates. Among surviving brigandines, individual plate are different thicknesses and have extra holes from their previous uses
Hey bud are you Welsh? Becouse I see a Welsh flag.
Not Welsh, I'm afraid. In fact until you mentioned it I never actually saw the similarity my little icon has with the Welsh flag haha. Funny how things work out
daddy
pretty athletic...I haven't been able to do what you did for...hmm, thirty years was the last time, I think....stay fit! I think being athletic and focusing on war stuff goes hand in hand and adds more credibility. Nothing is more annoying than an out of shape person ranting on how to fight and such yet the only time they run is to the refrigerator...
Definitely! I also find that trying to possess a comparable level of fitness hugely increases my understanding of arms and armor. Being able to practice hema twice a week has been a massive help.
@@LivingManuscript that is awesome! I wish there was HEMA here in Miami....only gang banging, random drive by's and shootings.
Yeah I suppose hema is much more enjoyable than those things. I know there are a few clubs in Florida, have you checked the HEMA alliance club finder? That is how I found the clubs in my area.
www.hemaalliance.com/club-finders
you look older than in 2021
It's because in 2021 I shave more haha