I always dislike when people say mehrunes dagun tried to invade nirn an failed. He didn't. He didn't conquer it, but that is not his goal. He is not the prince of dominion or conquest, but of revolution, change and ambition. All of his invasions were followed by exactly that, maybe the most after the game oblivion took place. I mean he ended an entire era, finished of the septum bloodline and invited those who had the most ambition to take over the throne. Mehrunes got exactly what he wanted, he won.
"I used to think you were a hero. A holy warrior and all that. I guess I should've known better" - Jauffre after seeing Bard in the local tavern telling everyone about his mankar cameron theories
I don't necessarily buy into Kirkbride's wilder ideas, but I do agree with him regarding Mankar Camoran and his take on Tamriel and Lorkhan (how Tamriel is Lorkhan's realm of Oblivion, and that Lorkhan was betrayed by Dibella, Stendarr/Stuhn, and Julianos/Jhunal), as well as his lesser-known pointing out of the connection between Kyne and Meridia (different emotions of the same experience; Kyne representing the grief of loss, Meridia representing the hope of return). It is also my theory that Magnus is the true trickster. Lorkhan had the idea of Mundus, but it was Magnus who actually designed it, knowing its cost and abandoning it once the truth became known. Lorkhan became the all-too-convenient fall guy for Magnus.
Lorkhan didn't truly die, he was arguably just changed. He now lives as Talos. I just thought of this: when Lorkhan "died," Shor appeared. When Shor disappeared, Vivek, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil found his heart and became gods themselves - gods powerful enough to no-sale any Daedric prince. The only one who could stand against the Tribunal was Tiber Septim, who became Talos, who was arguably Lorkhan. And when people stopped worshipping Talos? In comes the Dragonborn. Lorkhan never died. He was merely changed.
Talos has taken the place of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr as the divine ruling over Mundus in the center of the wheel. And even before Talos there was Pelinal Whitestrake, a Shezzarine, an avatar of Shezarr.
Lorkhan, chiral-twin of Akatosh, is the god of change. Time and change need each other. Without change, time is meaningless, and without time, change cannot occur. Dawn's Beauty, the arena, was made to maximize Anu-Padomaic interplay, that originally birthed Aurbis. Like oil and water that normally don't mix, if broken into tiny droplets, and shaken, form an emulsion, a sort of grey maybe. Lorkhan failed on purpose, to show us how to succeed. Change, potential, ascension are all Lorkhan's gifts to us. The lesson is harsh and brutal, and mortal lives are often filled with pain and tragedy, but there is no other way to overcome this flawed Dream. Aedra and Daedra cannot fix the Dream, only the mortal who becomes ruling king who becomes the new dreamer can lead all the rest of us to a new place, filled with love.
By the Nines, you never fail to astound me. I've been playing Oblivion for years, but your narration and the soul you put into your videos and exploration of the game is simply capital. Watching your content feels like re-discovering the whole game from scratch. Even if I know the subject of the video through and through, I always watch it with delight, curious of what you may add and feeling like a newbie again. Blessings of Anu upon ye and keep on adventuring!
Mankar Camoran is a highly intelligent and competent fool. He is a fool because he worships Mehrunes Dagon, who hates Tamriel and all of mortal existence. There will be no eternal paradise for Mankar and his followers. Dagon simply uses them as tools. As soon as they cease to be useful they will be treated like trash. Dagon hates them for what they are, mortals.
Lots of Elves, but almost no Wood Elves. Mankar Camoran SHOULD be a Wood Elf based on what we know of his past, but he's portrayed as a High Elf in the game. Why? Some people say he used Mehrunes Razor to alter his true name and make himself a High Elf, but there isn't really a reason given as to why he would do that, and from a writing standpoint that feels like the kind of lore you come up with when you have to justify someone else's decision. Did Bethesda just want the bad guy to be tall?
@@softreynaI think it was more than a theory. I’m pretty sure one of the big shots who made Oblivion did a QnA and said he used the razor to become a high elf.
I personally think that Cameron was a puppet pulling strings of other puppets. He lied to his followers, torturing them for their loyalty, but I also fee like Dagon was probably playing him all the same, so it's impossible to know really.
There's no way Dagon didn't know that Akatosh could send an aspect to Nirn, right? So letting Mankar believe that the Aedra can't intervene in Nirn directly is at least a lie of omission on his part.
It’s the same with Manninarco and Molag Bal during the events of the Elder Scrolls Online. Molag Bal was using Mannimarco, who had delusions about taking Molag Bal’s godhood and becoming a god himself. But in the end they both got what they deserved lol
"Daedra need a catalyst to enter through the dragonfires" or so the lore says... but... Sheogorath. Thats all. Sheogorath interferes with, and even manifests physically on, Nirn, to the point of even being capable of opening a VERY SPECIAL version of an oblivion Gate STRAIGHT TO HIS PERSONAL PLANE... He ignores ALL the "Rules" and truly seems to have Real Power, not bound by some magic guidelines... The rest of the Daedra AND Aedra Can't do ANY of this, not without a champion or Catalyst except one: Sanguine. This implies that Sheogorath And Sanguine are the most powerful of the Varied Gods of Nirn... Chaos and Madness... Makes Sense, i guess. But this could also imply that, if Camoran was Right about Lorkhan, That Sheogorath and Sanguine Might have Valid Claim to Nirn, possibly chosen by Lorkhan itself. But Dagon DOSEN'T, And isn't Welcome, Thus he needs A catalyst or three to enable his invasion... Hows that for a theory. Sheogorath and Sanguine are the Inheritors of Lorkhan... but they REALLY dont give a Damn, and just want to Have fun... So they called up their buddy, Hermaeus Mora, And had him make some Magic Fortune telling Scrolls in exchange for limited access to the realm, And thats where the Elder Scrolls come from, and why Mora can influence the realm to the extent that he can. Meanwhile, Sheogorath Is Insane, AND gets to swap to a new, heroic body, while separating from his other half, jyggalag, forever... And Sanguine gets to party all he wants AND pull as many nasty pranks as he wants... all with no responsibilities or Consequences. In addition, Jyggalag Is essentially free to rebirth on his own, a DAEDRA of ORDER AND LAW, Which completely overturns the Daedra=Wholly Evil Thing...(though Meridia and Azura kinda do that as well) Then on the Aedra side they have a goddess of prostitution, essentially... whose followers are either themselves prostitutes, lesbian commune members, or Polyamourous. Of course, i speak of Dibella... they also have a god of War that hates Elves and used to be human, A dragon that "REALLY LIKES" mortal races, if you get my drift, A nature goddess with two different names, And a god of "Justice" that is basically just a Lawyer... And the DAEDRA are supposed to be the bad ones.
To be fair, it is outright stated that his gate to the Shivering Isles "doesn't break any rules". No compact has been breached, no laws of reality broken. I'm assuming it may have something to do with the fact that it's meant more as an invitation to his realm and not as an invasion of Nirn's? Rather than an Oblivion Gate ripping open a hole in reality for an invasion, it's an open door on his side inviting anyone to come through. I would wager that this is unique to Sheogorath because none of the other Daedric Princes really care for mortals hanging around their realm unless they're outright enslaved or bonded to the respective Prince. Sheogorath on the other hand likes mortals, at least in the sense of a godlike entity enjoying watching lesser beings flit about on whatever meaningless thing they're obsessed with. The Shivering Isles welcome all comers, after all, and anyone can just up and decide to live there if their fractured minds allow them to. He doesn't even really seem to mind so many of his own followers betraying him for Jyggalag, it just doesn't occur to him to be angry and act like he 'owns' people for the sake of it. I'd say he is among the most powerful specifically because Sheogorath sees the value in mortals. They may be comparatively insignificant beings....but even a man can outwit a god when the stars align and the moment is right. But that also makes him dangerous because he likes to push the envelope on seeing what mortals are capable of, for his own laughs. He is definitely not someone you want to annoy, because his creative methods of punishment will make you wish it was Mehrunes Dagon you pissed off, instead. He's absolutely the last Daedric Prince I would *ever* want to run into, for that sole reason. You're going to entertain him one way or the other, and whether that means fooling about in the head of a long dead insane emperor....or getting your intestines pulled out for "jump rope"..well, you just don't know until it happens. Hell, I doubt even the Madgod himself knows ahead of time.
Most of the daedric princes are neutral. I'd only describe Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Mephala and Boethiah as truly evil. That's just 4 out of 17, and even if you include the somewhat evil ones (Namira, Malacath, Clavicus Vile, Vaermina) you still have less than half.
@@ABardsBallad lore dives on notable peoples of Tamriel or even the gods/goddesses would be awesome. I am very much interested in your opinions and thoughts on the various important figures in the lore.
While he maybe wrong about Nirn and Mehrunes Dagon, the implication that Mankar is dragonborn is however fascinating. Also is it ever explained as to why he's a High Elf? The Camoran's of lore are of Bosmer nobility.
In Skyrim we know a little more about overall plans of Dagon in regards to Mythic Dawn. In short - he would just toss them aside if he succeeded in Oblivion Crisis. For Dagon mortals, even Camoran, are just measly pawns.
@moosegoose3159 I looked everywhere for an answer, none were exemplary. My guess is part of the plot was too subvert expectations & to be ironic: Martin used to be a Daedra worshipper, turned to the light & became a priest of Akatosh(Auriel) while Mankar's character was originally supposed to be a Altmer/Aldmer who worshipped Auri-El, then lost his way & became a servant of the daedra more specifically Dagon. Then they changed the details of his backstory before release & so they rushed & changed his character by combinin with the last known member at the time of 2006 of the Camoran dynasty: Haymar Camoran's son.
I believe both of his parents must have been part Altmer, his father being a demiprince of Molag thus increasing his skills in Necromancy & his mother Kalys had to have been a Dragonborn for her to recieve visions of her son while still only pregnant with him. When Mankar used the Mysterium Xarxes & the "Commentaries" he must've chosen to pick the parts of his DNA (for lack of a better term in ElderScrolls/Tamriel) to identify with: Aldmer/Altmer/Ayelid Longevity & high source of magicka, Daedra: unbounded, ever changing, & skills with magic, Dragonborn: for larger soul, for shouts & wearing the Chim-El-abadal aka the Amulet of Kings. All of this is plausible because he created a corrupted form of his & Dagon's idea of paradise similar to the Island of the Psijic Order & how Shalidor was granted EyeVea.
The idea that Mundus is just another realm within Oblivion surely is intriguing. It is said that Aetherius is around Oblivion and itself surrounded by the void. The planets in the sky are simultaneously the Aedra and their planes, both are inseperable. The realms are also endless and the visible objects are simply a representation that the mortal mind can understand. And in an interesting mathematical way both Mundus and Talos fit into the cosmology. There are 8 aedric divines. and 16 daedric princes. They all have their realms. The 8 Aedra are also seen as part of the wheel. And what does every wheel have? An axle in the center. Mundus might be this axle, this center point. The last realm/planet. But what about it's divine? Well there was Lorkhan, as known to the elves. The Nord call him Shor and the name given in Cyrodiil is Shezarr. What if Talos took this free spot? Not just being a man becoming a god, but filling a void left empty since creation. That would also explain why the Aedra and Naedra keep fighting over Mundus, but are unable to conquer it. There is still some essence of Lorkhan around, too little to fully manifest, but enough to prevent others from laying claim.
Mankar could be right about Tamriel (and Mundus as a whole) being a Daedric realm. Only issue with him proclaiming Dagon as some saviour acting in Lorkhans stead is that if we take the implications that every player since Arena is a Shezzarine (an avatar of Lorkhan/Shor/other names), this would mean Lorkhan himself played a pivotal role in stopping Dagons plans. Every time mortals are in grave danger, a Shezzarine appears to save them. The Dragonborn in Skyrim is more closely associated with Shor by the Nords than they are with Akatosh/AuriEl. Shor being the nordic incarnation of Lorkhan. Every player has been there at the exact right times in Tamriel to stop major threats to the existence of Mundus as a whole. The Khajiit venerate Shezzar (Lorkhan) and in the songs of Pelinal, Alessia outright calls him one (Shezzarine). Mind you he killed every person who called him one save Alessia and her closest circle. Instead he essentially says "She knows her stuff." Mankar is correct, Mundus is Lorkhan's realm. What he was incorrect about was the intent of it. It's why Dagon keeps getting foiled by a Shezzarine.
I'm no Kirkbride fanboy. I can't stand some of his wild ideas but... you can see the difference in writing between him and the later generic guys working from Oblivion onwards. You can really notice how the whole Camoran thing was written by him.
What are some things you don’t vibe with his writing? Not baiting, I also have mixed feelings on some of his stuff. A lot of his ideas are what I love about the lore and make it unique, but at the same time some of it rubs me the wrong way sometimes (like the non-canon continuation of the Remanada which was just… idk man, not my thing 😂)
@@Joyride37I mostly had in mind that stuff he wrote after Morrowind, like c0da. It reads like a mushroom trip. A heavy one. The stuff that did make it into the games (even after Morrowind, when he gets called as an external consultant or whatever the correct term is) was great, like Mankar Camoran and the like. The guy basically reshaped the lore of the franchise and gave form to much of Morrowind. But I also don't want to ignore the fact that much of the lore was already there before him, it's not like he alone shaped the world, it already had solid foundations. My problem is with Bethesda's writing from Oblivion onwards, they completely failed to portray the amazing stuff they already had and started to retcon way too many things I liked (or use the excuse of the passing of time to, for example, "explain" why we don't see the Nordic pantheon in Skyrim).
@@San_Vito Morrowind truly has those alien ideas that are just ... different. But the more we move on from there, the more generic it becomes. Oblivion still has a good portion of these other things. Skyrim sometimes shows a spark. But a lot of the wild elements nowadays are lust kept because of the fans, sort of as legacy content.
Mankar Camoran is, as you say "a manipulated and brainwashed mer..." 12:35 That's precisely what he is. Mehrunes Dagon hates Tamriel and the mortal races, his goal is to obliterate Tamriel. Mankar is a tragically deluded pawn who sought out Dagon for salvation, but Dagon doesn't want paradise for Mankar or the Mythic Dawn. They are mortals, they are the subjects of Dagon's hatred. He cynically exploits them.
I'd recommend checking out the book simply called "Sithis" as it pertains to Lorkhan's role in a Dunmer context! Ancestors and the Dunmer is a good source too on how Dunmer view Oblivion as parralel to Nirn. Lorkhan to the Dunmer has a strong connection to the magic of their afterlife and the ancestor worship tradition. The ash and stone of Red Mountain, as well as its volcanic glass like ebony, malachite, and viridian, have powerful magical properties and can act like windows to the Otherworld that is Oblivion where both the Aedra and the Daedra supposedly reside. The ash can induce visions and dreamlike states, and can create creatures that exist in-between states of life, death, and undeath such as the ash spawn and Dagoth Ur's ash creatures when the Heart was still physically bound. Mehrunes Dagon is also essentially the fusion of an old entity named Dagon and Mehrunes, who the game Battlespire gives the title the "Gerent of Dagon". According at least to the Nordic perspective of Aldudagga Fight One, "The Eating-Birth of Dagon", the gerent Mehrunes was forced upon the Leaper-Demon King Dagon as punishment for his greed by Alduin, since he would steal bits of the previous kalpa to leap over to the next with whenever the world starts freezing up and needs to be eaten. The supposed purpose of Mehrunes in this would be to make him let go of and destroy all the places and things that he's hoarded. The Commentaries claims that the creation of a fused Mehrunes Dagon occurred in secret by the Magna Ge in "the very bowels of Lyg". Molag Bal has some claim to Nirn too, and he's the other prince who commonly invades whenever the barriers are out. The 36 Lessons claims that "When the dreughs ruled the world, the Daedroth Prince Molag Bal had been their chief. He took a different shape then, spiny and armored and made for the sea.", referring to the carapace that would become Ruddy Man.
He was entirely correct. Gods can't die, yet the Aedra did? Meanwhile, they couldn't destroy Lorkhan's heart. Because they were his servants who betrayed him, which is why only the Nords (and Imperials) revere him while the rest of the pantheons slander him. TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH
@@wololopurgisnacht with enough Sujamma you can delete anything from existence. Or however the Dwemer did it. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of binge drinking to celebrate the creation of their new god.
I do like his take that tamriel exists in lorkhans domain, but instantly goes to say daedra can't die. So where is lorkhan? There are some links to suggest tiber septim didn't achieve chim but is lorkhan in disguise. Elder scrolls lore is so goooood!
Lorkhan might not be dead in the traditional sense and instead be sort of unconscious, if that makes any sense for a god. The moons are supposedly his body and we can see his heart acting throughout the ages while on Tamriel. So perhaps taking him apart sort of turned Lorkhan off. He's in a divine coma and only bringing the pieces back together reawakens him. But on that note, daedric smithing is done by combining ebony with a daedra heart. Ebony is the blood of Lorkhan dropping down when his heart was flung across the sky. What if the daedra heart acts as a substitute for Lorkhan's heart? Daedric weapons can harm ghosts, even without enchantment. They are considered magical just by themselves. But why? Is it because of the daedric flesh used in their creation? Or perhaps because they are a weaker version of the circulation of Lorkhan, a literal divine being...
Think about this: TES 6 plot shows the thalmor tearing down the towers and restoring the connection to atherius just to be thrown straight in to oblivion 😂
When I beat Oblivion last week for the first time, and Cameron explained everything to me, it made complete sense. It’s up for debate, but I think he is correct when he says that Nirn is just a fraction of the universe that the Daedra have created. Nirn was created by the deadra, and is only a very small part of a big picture that the Daedra have painted. The divines only exist in this realm(Mundus) and are essentially “lower gods” compared to the powers that the Daedra have. The Daedra hold the real power, but for some reason the Aedra are always able to defeat them and keep Mundus intact.(example: When Akatosh took on the form of a dragon to defeat Mehrunes Dagon which ended the oblivion crisis)
what if divinity follows the " god needs prayer badly" principle and the Aedra continue to be victorious simply through the amount of worship they receive.
@@ABardsBallad Its you! The grand champion! Enjoyed the vid! I thought it was really interesting how he says tamriel is another deadric plane, the rest kind of feels like justifying how the deadra are better than aedra but tamriel being another plane in oblivion just makes sense
I think he was deceived by the god, however maybe there is truth behind it, The Aedra might have agreed to help Lorkhan make the world but betrayed him for unknown reasons, be it he was or they thought he was deciving them, Lorkhan was the strongest god as he seemingly made this relm that can live without him and they wanted that power, or something else.
Yet another reason to join the thalmor and destroy the last tower binding us to dawns beauty, the adamantine tower in hammerfell (you wont be able to join the bad guy team)
12:30 I disagree that Mehrunes seeks the total death of life, rather he seeks revolution for its own sake. He is the terrible and ferocious liberator that brings about hope and change, a very fascinating character
What we need to think about is not "Is Mankar right?" it's stupid to pick either Aedra or Daedra. YOU are the player! YOU are the one who dreams! Dreams of many characters and how they work. YOU know how to use console commands. YOU know how to mod. YOU can shape the World however you want. You have achieved Chim without ever knowing. Truth ever present and in front of you.
So here's an interesting thought right, it's just a further theory on Lorkahn. What if that "betrayal of Lorkahn" was just another one of his tricks and he's secretly been all of the aedra this whole time? I mean we never see them in the same place at the same time, they're all supposed creations of Lorkahn to begin with and we already know that one of morrowind's tribunal (been so long that I forgot the name) can switch genders through chim (a process heavily associated with Lorkahn). So what if all this time Lorkahn is really just shape shifting and gender bending himself to make us think he's out of the picture and to also ensure he would have the upper hand on the daedra every time he comes back as either akatosh, Kyne, etc, I mean we see examples of this in our faces in the lore itself with I think Olaf one eye and Tiber Septim being incarnations of shor (who is heavily implied to be Lorkahn and who there are stories of, long after his heart is shot into red mountain).
@ABardsBallad Oh and to further this theory, remember how in skyrim Shor is gone but now there's a dragonborn (you the player character). If I remember right, I think it's also implied that you might be Shor and that's why his throne in sovngard is empty, so by proxy we officially have Lorkahn in one of the games, he's you, the player character. But that's a theory I'm sure everyone has thought about and probably dropped by no, plus that's way too long to explain in a single comment, lol.
@ABardsBallad That is, if the divines aren't just Lorkahn himself pretending to be a bunch of other gods. He is the trickster God so this is definitely up his alley
I would disagree on most his points about Mundus belonging to Mehrunes Dagon, but the part about Lorkhan being Daedra is on point. First of all, he is Nirn(which connects Daedra prince planes=Daedra princes) - Heart of Lorkhan is the heart of the world, literally. Second - he is Padomaic by definition.
@@ABardsBallad I'm pretty deeply invested in TES lore and a fan of your works, as resident of Ukraine your videos is what saving me when I got power outages so I always pre download them. You making Akatoshs work :)
I always dislike when people say mehrunes dagun tried to invade nirn an failed. He didn't. He didn't conquer it, but that is not his goal. He is not the prince of dominion or conquest, but of revolution, change and ambition. All of his invasions were followed by exactly that, maybe the most after the game oblivion took place. I mean he ended an entire era, finished of the septum bloodline and invited those who had the most ambition to take over the throne. Mehrunes got exactly what he wanted, he won.
By the Emperor, Baurus is rolling in his grave hearing his best friend Bard speak in such manner
😂😂😂 yeah it definitely feels wrong to betray him like this
"I used to think you were a hero. A holy warrior and all that. I guess I should've known better" - Jauffre after seeing Bard in the local tavern telling everyone about his mankar cameron theories
I was thinking about Wankar Camoran this morning and now I see this on my lunch break. Nice!
He’s a very interesting character to study!
Wankar?
After reading this comment 2 days ago, I can't get wankar camoran out of my head, it's genius 😂
Wankar Cumoran
I don't necessarily buy into Kirkbride's wilder ideas, but I do agree with him regarding Mankar Camoran and his take on Tamriel and Lorkhan (how Tamriel is Lorkhan's realm of Oblivion, and that Lorkhan was betrayed by Dibella, Stendarr/Stuhn, and Julianos/Jhunal), as well as his lesser-known pointing out of the connection between Kyne and Meridia (different emotions of the same experience; Kyne representing the grief of loss, Meridia representing the hope of return).
It is also my theory that Magnus is the true trickster. Lorkhan had the idea of Mundus, but it was Magnus who actually designed it, knowing its cost and abandoning it once the truth became known. Lorkhan became the all-too-convenient fall guy for Magnus.
Lorkhan didn't truly die, he was arguably just changed. He now lives as Talos.
I just thought of this: when Lorkhan "died," Shor appeared. When Shor disappeared, Vivek, Almalexia, and Sotha Sil found his heart and became gods themselves - gods powerful enough to no-sale any Daedric prince. The only one who could stand against the Tribunal was Tiber Septim, who became Talos, who was arguably Lorkhan. And when people stopped worshipping Talos? In comes the Dragonborn.
Lorkhan never died. He was merely changed.
Talos has taken the place of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezarr as the divine ruling over Mundus in the center of the wheel.
And even before Talos there was Pelinal Whitestrake, a Shezzarine, an avatar of Shezarr.
Lorkhan, chiral-twin of Akatosh, is the god of change.
Time and change need each other. Without change, time is meaningless, and without time, change cannot occur.
Dawn's Beauty, the arena, was made to maximize Anu-Padomaic interplay, that originally birthed Aurbis.
Like oil and water that normally don't mix, if broken into tiny droplets, and shaken, form an emulsion, a sort of grey maybe.
Lorkhan failed on purpose, to show us how to succeed. Change, potential, ascension are all Lorkhan's gifts to us.
The lesson is harsh and brutal, and mortal lives are often filled with pain and tragedy, but there is no other way to overcome this flawed Dream.
Aedra and Daedra cannot fix the Dream, only the mortal who becomes ruling king who becomes the new dreamer can lead all the rest of us to a new place, filled with love.
By the Nines, you never fail to astound me. I've been playing Oblivion for years, but your narration and the soul you put into your videos and exploration of the game is simply capital. Watching your content feels like re-discovering the whole game from scratch. Even if I know the subject of the video through and through, I always watch it with delight, curious of what you may add and feeling like a newbie again. Blessings of Anu upon ye and keep on adventuring!
I really appreciate the comment! It’s really nice to see! I’m glad I can give you that sense of new and refreshing content! :)
Mankar camoran has always been an interesting character to me, glad to see a video about him
I really enjoyed his philosophy and thinking! Really makes you stop and wonder!
@@ABardsBallad Yeah, I agree
Mankar Camoran was right. What he did was wrong; but philosophically speaking; he was correct.
I find the way he thinks about this so fascinating!
Mankar Camoran is a highly intelligent and competent fool. He is a fool because he worships Mehrunes Dagon, who hates Tamriel and all of mortal existence.
There will be no eternal paradise for Mankar and his followers. Dagon simply uses them as tools. As soon as they cease to be useful they will be treated like trash. Dagon hates them for what they are, mortals.
Except the part where Dagon is not Lorkhan.
@@SquantanamoWdym?
If you read the refugee book, it turns out there’s more than one Mankar
Has anyone noticed that in Oblivion, Alot of villians at the end of quests were Elves?
It’s very true 😂 I do wonder if it’s a play on of how the races of man are supposed to be the ones with the faults, but it always ends up being a mer!
Lots of Elves, but almost no Wood Elves. Mankar Camoran SHOULD be a Wood Elf based on what we know of his past, but he's portrayed as a High Elf in the game. Why? Some people say he used Mehrunes Razor to alter his true name and make himself a High Elf, but there isn't really a reason given as to why he would do that, and from a writing standpoint that feels like the kind of lore you come up with when you have to justify someone else's decision. Did Bethesda just want the bad guy to be tall?
@@softreyna not just a High Elf, an Ayelid. It makes his claim more legitimate and justified.
@@softreynaI think it was more than a theory. I’m pretty sure one of the big shots who made Oblivion did a QnA and said he used the razor to become a high elf.
I don't think he turned himself into an altmer.
I think he turned himself into an ayelid
I personally think that Cameron was a puppet pulling strings of other puppets. He lied to his followers, torturing them for their loyalty, but I also fee like Dagon was probably playing him all the same, so it's impossible to know really.
Very well said! It’s very trick to know when the storytellers have their own personal stake in the game!
There's no way Dagon didn't know that Akatosh could send an aspect to Nirn, right? So letting Mankar believe that the Aedra can't intervene in Nirn directly is at least a lie of omission on his part.
@@softreynaThey normally can't, hence the whole main quest
It’s the same with Manninarco and Molag Bal during the events of the Elder Scrolls Online. Molag Bal was using Mannimarco, who had delusions about taking Molag Bal’s godhood and becoming a god himself. But in the end they both got what they deserved lol
Hey bard, you’re quickly becoming one the greatest elder scrolls content creators. Always look forward to your videos!
I really appreciate the kind words and the support! Let me know if you liked the video and I’ll make more like this one!
@@ABardsBallad it was great! I would love to see more speculation videos. Great articulation, way of presenting your points
"Daedra need a catalyst to enter through the dragonfires" or so the lore says... but... Sheogorath. Thats all.
Sheogorath interferes with, and even manifests physically on, Nirn, to the point of even being capable of opening a VERY SPECIAL version of an oblivion Gate STRAIGHT TO HIS PERSONAL PLANE...
He ignores ALL the "Rules" and truly seems to have Real Power, not bound by some magic guidelines... The rest of the Daedra AND Aedra Can't do ANY of this, not without a champion or Catalyst except one: Sanguine.
This implies that Sheogorath And Sanguine are the most powerful of the Varied Gods of Nirn... Chaos and Madness...
Makes Sense, i guess.
But this could also imply that, if Camoran was Right about Lorkhan, That Sheogorath and Sanguine Might have Valid Claim to Nirn, possibly chosen by Lorkhan itself. But Dagon DOSEN'T, And isn't Welcome, Thus he needs A catalyst or three to enable his invasion...
Hows that for a theory. Sheogorath and Sanguine are the Inheritors of Lorkhan... but they REALLY dont give a Damn, and just want to Have fun... So they called up their buddy, Hermaeus Mora, And had him make some Magic Fortune telling Scrolls in exchange for limited access to the realm, And thats where the Elder Scrolls come from, and why Mora can influence the realm to the extent that he can.
Meanwhile, Sheogorath Is Insane, AND gets to swap to a new, heroic body, while separating from his other half, jyggalag, forever... And Sanguine gets to party all he wants AND pull as many nasty pranks as he wants... all with no responsibilities or Consequences.
In addition, Jyggalag Is essentially free to rebirth on his own, a DAEDRA of ORDER AND LAW, Which completely overturns the Daedra=Wholly Evil Thing...(though Meridia and Azura kinda do that as well)
Then on the Aedra side they have a goddess of prostitution, essentially... whose followers are either themselves prostitutes, lesbian commune members, or Polyamourous. Of course, i speak of Dibella... they also have a god of War that hates Elves and used to be human, A dragon that "REALLY LIKES" mortal races, if you get my drift, A nature goddess with two different names, And a god of "Justice" that is basically just a Lawyer...
And the DAEDRA are supposed to be the bad ones.
To be fair, it is outright stated that his gate to the Shivering Isles "doesn't break any rules". No compact has been breached, no laws of reality broken. I'm assuming it may have something to do with the fact that it's meant more as an invitation to his realm and not as an invasion of Nirn's? Rather than an Oblivion Gate ripping open a hole in reality for an invasion, it's an open door on his side inviting anyone to come through.
I would wager that this is unique to Sheogorath because none of the other Daedric Princes really care for mortals hanging around their realm unless they're outright enslaved or bonded to the respective Prince. Sheogorath on the other hand likes mortals, at least in the sense of a godlike entity enjoying watching lesser beings flit about on whatever meaningless thing they're obsessed with. The Shivering Isles welcome all comers, after all, and anyone can just up and decide to live there if their fractured minds allow them to. He doesn't even really seem to mind so many of his own followers betraying him for Jyggalag, it just doesn't occur to him to be angry and act like he 'owns' people for the sake of it.
I'd say he is among the most powerful specifically because Sheogorath sees the value in mortals. They may be comparatively insignificant beings....but even a man can outwit a god when the stars align and the moment is right. But that also makes him dangerous because he likes to push the envelope on seeing what mortals are capable of, for his own laughs. He is definitely not someone you want to annoy, because his creative methods of punishment will make you wish it was Mehrunes Dagon you pissed off, instead.
He's absolutely the last Daedric Prince I would *ever* want to run into, for that sole reason. You're going to entertain him one way or the other, and whether that means fooling about in the head of a long dead insane emperor....or getting your intestines pulled out for "jump rope"..well, you just don't know until it happens. Hell, I doubt even the Madgod himself knows ahead of time.
Most of the daedric princes are neutral. I'd only describe Molag Bal, Mehrunes Dagon, Mephala and Boethiah as truly evil. That's just 4 out of 17, and even if you include the somewhat evil ones (Namira, Malacath, Clavicus Vile, Vaermina) you still have less than half.
*The blades would like to know your location.*
😂😂😂
As far as skyrim goes, there's not alot of blades left 😂
What are they gonna do other than hiding from the thalmor and waiting till the dragonborn finally slays his dragon buddy Paarthurnax?
Wooo!!! Excited to see another upload. I love oblivion
I hope you enjoyed it! :)
Once again excellently done!! 😉👍
Thank you! I appreciate it!
Excellent topic choice post main quest line.
It really had me thinking while he was speaking!
great video (so far), and i was genuinely so surprised to see the subscriber count. super underrated, keep up the good work man
I appreciate it! I’m glad you liked it and thank you for the kind words! :)
we comin out of the dawn with this one boys
I hope you enjoy it and let me know what you think! I can make more like it if it’s a solid one!
@@ABardsBallad lore dives on notable peoples of Tamriel or even the gods/goddesses would be awesome. I am very much interested in your opinions and thoughts on the various important figures in the lore.
Evil and lies will always hold a kernel of truth. Plus if the Aedra were powerless, how did Akatosh...
I love your videos so much, this one was super interesting too!
I appreciate the support and I’m glad you liked it!
While he maybe wrong about Nirn and Mehrunes Dagon, the implication that Mankar is dragonborn is however fascinating. Also is it ever explained as to why he's a High Elf? The Camoran's of lore are of Bosmer nobility.
I really wanted to discuss his Dragonborn lineage but thought it best for another video! Also I was wondering the same 😂
In Skyrim we know a little more about overall plans of Dagon in regards to Mythic Dawn. In short - he would just toss them aside if he succeeded in Oblivion Crisis. For Dagon mortals, even Camoran, are just measly pawns.
@moosegoose3159 I looked everywhere for an answer, none were exemplary. My guess is part of the plot was too subvert expectations & to be ironic: Martin used to be a Daedra worshipper, turned to the light & became a priest of Akatosh(Auriel) while Mankar's character was originally supposed to be a Altmer/Aldmer who worshipped Auri-El, then lost his way & became a servant of the daedra more specifically Dagon. Then they changed the details of his backstory before release & so they rushed & changed his character by combinin with the last known member at the time of 2006 of the Camoran dynasty: Haymar Camoran's son.
I believe both of his parents must have been part Altmer, his father being a demiprince of Molag thus increasing his skills in Necromancy & his mother Kalys had to have been a Dragonborn for her to recieve visions of her son while still only pregnant with him. When Mankar used the Mysterium Xarxes & the "Commentaries" he must've chosen to pick the parts of his DNA (for lack of a better term in ElderScrolls/Tamriel) to identify with: Aldmer/Altmer/Ayelid Longevity & high source of magicka, Daedra: unbounded, ever changing, & skills with magic, Dragonborn: for larger soul, for shouts & wearing the Chim-El-abadal aka the Amulet of Kings. All of this is plausible because he created a corrupted form of his & Dagon's idea of paradise similar to the Island of the Psijic Order & how Shalidor was granted EyeVea.
Afaik he changed himself with Mehrunes' Razor to become an Ayleid
The idea that Mundus is just another realm within Oblivion surely is intriguing.
It is said that Aetherius is around Oblivion and itself surrounded by the void. The planets in the sky are simultaneously the Aedra and their planes, both are inseperable. The realms are also endless and the visible objects are simply a representation that the mortal mind can understand.
And in an interesting mathematical way both Mundus and Talos fit into the cosmology.
There are 8 aedric divines. and 16 daedric princes. They all have their realms. The 8 Aedra are also seen as part of the wheel.
And what does every wheel have? An axle in the center.
Mundus might be this axle, this center point. The last realm/planet.
But what about it's divine?
Well there was Lorkhan, as known to the elves. The Nord call him Shor and the name given in Cyrodiil is Shezarr.
What if Talos took this free spot? Not just being a man becoming a god, but filling a void left empty since creation.
That would also explain why the Aedra and Naedra keep fighting over Mundus, but are unable to conquer it. There is still some essence of Lorkhan around, too little to fully manifest, but enough to prevent others from laying claim.
He is a interesting character for sure
Really makes me stop and think about things!
Can't wait for an Oblivion historian to go on Tucker Carlson and discuss Mankar!
1,000,000+ views easily 👀
who?
Great video bard, i loved it! Do you have any idea when you are planning to begin your morrowind adventure?😊
I really appreciate it! We’re going to get there soon! I have a brief list of videos I want to get out before starting the Morrowind playthrough!
@@ABardsBallad Allright friend! Cant wait to see what you have planned!!
Through fire the world will be reborn. The ire of dagon will leave it scorned.
The thalmor are following in the wake of Alduin!
Least insane Altmer/Bosmer
I hope we learn more about Camoran dynasty in next TES game.
Honestly given their track record, you might be right lol
Adoring fan aswell
Mankar could be right about Tamriel (and Mundus as a whole) being a Daedric realm. Only issue with him proclaiming Dagon as some saviour acting in Lorkhans stead is that if we take the implications that every player since Arena is a Shezzarine (an avatar of Lorkhan/Shor/other names), this would mean Lorkhan himself played a pivotal role in stopping Dagons plans. Every time mortals are in grave danger, a Shezzarine appears to save them. The Dragonborn in Skyrim is more closely associated with Shor by the Nords than they are with Akatosh/AuriEl. Shor being the nordic incarnation of Lorkhan. Every player has been there at the exact right times in Tamriel to stop major threats to the existence of Mundus as a whole. The Khajiit venerate Shezzar (Lorkhan) and in the songs of Pelinal, Alessia outright calls him one (Shezzarine). Mind you he killed every person who called him one save Alessia and her closest circle. Instead he essentially says "She knows her stuff."
Mankar is correct, Mundus is Lorkhan's realm. What he was incorrect about was the intent of it. It's why Dagon keeps getting foiled by a Shezzarine.
And if Talos truly archived divinity, and not in the childish Tribunal way, he might've taken the vacant place.
I'm no Kirkbride fanboy. I can't stand some of his wild ideas but... you can see the difference in writing between him and the later generic guys working from Oblivion onwards. You can really notice how the whole Camoran thing was written by him.
What are some things you don’t vibe with his writing? Not baiting, I also have mixed feelings on some of his stuff. A lot of his ideas are what I love about the lore and make it unique, but at the same time some of it rubs me the wrong way sometimes (like the non-canon continuation of the Remanada which was just… idk man, not my thing 😂)
@@Joyride37I mostly had in mind that stuff he wrote after Morrowind, like c0da. It reads like a mushroom trip. A heavy one.
The stuff that did make it into the games (even after Morrowind, when he gets called as an external consultant or whatever the correct term is) was great, like Mankar Camoran and the like. The guy basically reshaped the lore of the franchise and gave form to much of Morrowind. But I also don't want to ignore the fact that much of the lore was already there before him, it's not like he alone shaped the world, it already had solid foundations. My problem is with Bethesda's writing from Oblivion onwards, they completely failed to portray the amazing stuff they already had and started to retcon way too many things I liked (or use the excuse of the passing of time to, for example, "explain" why we don't see the Nordic pantheon in Skyrim).
@@San_Vito Morrowind truly has those alien ideas that are just ... different.
But the more we move on from there, the more generic it becomes.
Oblivion still has a good portion of these other things. Skyrim sometimes shows a spark.
But a lot of the wild elements nowadays are lust kept because of the fans, sort of as legacy content.
I am really looking forward to your thoughts on the Tribunal whenever you decide to play Morrowind. 😄
Haha me too! I’ve heard great things about them!
Been here since your early oblivion videos❤
I really appreciate the support! Hopefully this one feels similar to the old ones I used to put out! 😂
@@ABardsBallad They all feel great to watch!
Mankar Camoran is, as you say "a manipulated and brainwashed mer..." 12:35
That's precisely what he is. Mehrunes Dagon hates Tamriel and the mortal races, his goal is to obliterate Tamriel. Mankar is a tragically deluded pawn who sought out Dagon for salvation, but Dagon doesn't want paradise for Mankar or the Mythic Dawn.
They are mortals, they are the subjects of Dagon's hatred. He cynically exploits them.
Very well said!
I'd recommend checking out the book simply called "Sithis" as it pertains to Lorkhan's role in a Dunmer context! Ancestors and the Dunmer is a good source too on how Dunmer view Oblivion as parralel to Nirn. Lorkhan to the Dunmer has a strong connection to the magic of their afterlife and the ancestor worship tradition. The ash and stone of Red Mountain, as well as its volcanic glass like ebony, malachite, and viridian, have powerful magical properties and can act like windows to the Otherworld that is Oblivion where both the Aedra and the Daedra supposedly reside. The ash can induce visions and dreamlike states, and can create creatures that exist in-between states of life, death, and undeath such as the ash spawn and Dagoth Ur's ash creatures when the Heart was still physically bound.
Mehrunes Dagon is also essentially the fusion of an old entity named Dagon and Mehrunes, who the game Battlespire gives the title the "Gerent of Dagon". According at least to the Nordic perspective of Aldudagga Fight One, "The Eating-Birth of Dagon", the gerent Mehrunes was forced upon the Leaper-Demon King Dagon as punishment for his greed by Alduin, since he would steal bits of the previous kalpa to leap over to the next with whenever the world starts freezing up and needs to be eaten. The supposed purpose of Mehrunes in this would be to make him let go of and destroy all the places and things that he's hoarded. The Commentaries claims that the creation of a fused Mehrunes Dagon occurred in secret by the Magna Ge in "the very bowels of Lyg".
Molag Bal has some claim to Nirn too, and he's the other prince who commonly invades whenever the barriers are out. The 36 Lessons claims that "When the dreughs ruled the world, the Daedroth Prince Molag Bal had been their chief. He took a different shape then, spiny and armored and made for the sea.", referring to the carapace that would become Ruddy Man.
Ooooooo we’re going into philosophy now
Haha I hope you enjoyed it! Let me know if you liked it!
He was entirely correct. Gods can't die, yet the Aedra did? Meanwhile, they couldn't destroy Lorkhan's heart. Because they were his servants who betrayed him, which is why only the Nords (and Imperials) revere him while the rest of the pantheons slander him.
TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH
I love the username!
How can you kill a god? What a grand and intoxicating innocence!
@@wololopurgisnacht with enough Sujamma you can delete anything from existence.
Or however the Dwemer did it. Which doesn't exclude the possibility of binge drinking to celebrate the creation of their new god.
Excellent video.
More lore for Oblivion and Morrowind please.
If Daedra so powerful. How come Dagon got his ass wooped?
Never been this early to a video in my life
I appreciate the support and hope you enjoyed this one! Definitely out of the norm for me!
Congratulations on 17k!!
I do like his take that tamriel exists in lorkhans domain, but instantly goes to say daedra can't die. So where is lorkhan? There are some links to suggest tiber septim didn't achieve chim but is lorkhan in disguise.
Elder scrolls lore is so goooood!
There’s so much to unpack and open with it! It certainly is fantastic!
Lorkhan might not be dead in the traditional sense and instead be sort of unconscious, if that makes any sense for a god.
The moons are supposedly his body and we can see his heart acting throughout the ages while on Tamriel.
So perhaps taking him apart sort of turned Lorkhan off. He's in a divine coma and only bringing the pieces back together reawakens him.
But on that note, daedric smithing is done by combining ebony with a daedra heart.
Ebony is the blood of Lorkhan dropping down when his heart was flung across the sky.
What if the daedra heart acts as a substitute for Lorkhan's heart?
Daedric weapons can harm ghosts, even without enchantment. They are considered magical just by themselves.
But why? Is it because of the daedric flesh used in their creation? Or perhaps because they are a weaker version of the circulation of Lorkhan, a literal divine being...
Just subbed 👍 keep up the good work
Please do morrowind next 🙏
It’s coming soon!
Think about this: TES 6 plot shows the thalmor tearing down the towers and restoring the connection to atherius just to be thrown straight in to oblivion 😂
Haha I love it! Would likely happen too lol
nah, he is getting his truths form a Daedra that is willing to do anything to take over tamriel, dude is a fool for trusting that
Very true, his sources unfortunately aren’t very trustworthy lol
When I beat Oblivion last week for the first time, and Cameron explained everything to me, it made complete sense.
It’s up for debate, but I think he is correct when he says that Nirn is just a fraction of the universe that the Daedra have created. Nirn was created by the deadra, and is only a very small part of a big picture that the Daedra have painted. The divines only exist in this realm(Mundus) and are essentially “lower gods” compared to the powers that the Daedra have. The Daedra hold the real power, but for some reason the Aedra are always able to defeat them and keep Mundus intact.(example: When Akatosh took on the form of a dragon to defeat Mehrunes Dagon which ended the oblivion crisis)
what if divinity follows the " god needs prayer badly" principle and the Aedra continue to be victorious simply through the amount of worship they receive.
Notification squad rise up
I appreciate it! :)
@@ABardsBallad Its you! The grand champion!
Enjoyed the vid! I thought it was really interesting how he says tamriel is another deadric plane, the rest kind of feels like justifying how the deadra are better than aedra but tamriel being another plane in oblivion just makes sense
I think he was deceived by the god, however maybe there is truth behind it, The Aedra might have agreed to help Lorkhan make the world but betrayed him for unknown reasons, be it he was or they thought he was deciving them, Lorkhan was the strongest god as he seemingly made this relm that can live without him and they wanted that power, or something else.
He looses credibility when he claims Lorkhan's heart couldn't be destroyed, the Neravarine did a good job of that
Yet another reason to join the thalmor and destroy the last tower binding us to dawns beauty, the adamantine tower in hammerfell (you wont be able to join the bad guy team)
It would be a really cool story pathway!
12:30 I disagree that Mehrunes seeks the total death of life, rather he seeks revolution for its own sake. He is the terrible and ferocious liberator that brings about hope and change, a very fascinating character
The timid shall be cast down
What we need to think about is not "Is Mankar right?" it's stupid to pick either Aedra or Daedra. YOU are the player! YOU are the one who dreams! Dreams of many characters and how they work. YOU know how to use console commands. YOU know how to mod. YOU can shape the World however you want. You have achieved Chim without ever knowing. Truth ever present and in front of you.
Dagon played Camoran like a fiddle
So here's an interesting thought right, it's just a further theory on Lorkahn. What if that "betrayal of Lorkahn" was just another one of his tricks and he's secretly been all of the aedra this whole time? I mean we never see them in the same place at the same time, they're all supposed creations of Lorkahn to begin with and we already know that one of morrowind's tribunal (been so long that I forgot the name) can switch genders through chim (a process heavily associated with Lorkahn). So what if all this time Lorkahn is really just shape shifting and gender bending himself to make us think he's out of the picture and to also ensure he would have the upper hand on the daedra every time he comes back as either akatosh, Kyne, etc, I mean we see examples of this in our faces in the lore itself with I think Olaf one eye and Tiber Septim being incarnations of shor (who is heavily implied to be Lorkahn and who there are stories of, long after his heart is shot into red mountain).
Definitely a theory worth exploring! Sounds very fascinating!
@ABardsBallad Oh and to further this theory, remember how in skyrim Shor is gone but now there's a dragonborn (you the player character). If I remember right, I think it's also implied that you might be Shor and that's why his throne in sovngard is empty, so by proxy we officially have Lorkahn in one of the games, he's you, the player character. But that's a theory I'm sure everyone has thought about and probably dropped by no, plus that's way too long to explain in a single comment, lol.
BLADES!
OPEN UP!
Was he right? He can't even name daedric prince's realm right!
Manimarco did nothing wrong.
That’s the title of my next video 👀👀👀
@@ABardsBallad YESSSSS
Might makes right, and he wasn't mighty enough.
I hate to admit the fact that he was right... he truly deserved a video all about him however :)
He just has such an interesting viewpoint!
I love your videos but the rant he did at paradise is nonesense because of many proofs of the aedra being gods.
Thank you! I agree, at the end of the video while going over the claims we can dismiss of his, the Aedra not being gods is there!
@ABardsBallad That is, if the divines aren't just Lorkahn himself pretending to be a bunch of other gods. He is the trickster God so this is definitely up his alley
lol his domain revolving around energy has more controversy then anything
I would disagree on most his points about Mundus belonging to Mehrunes Dagon, but the part about Lorkhan being Daedra is on point. First of all, he is Nirn(which connects Daedra prince planes=Daedra princes) - Heart of Lorkhan is the heart of the world, literally. Second - he is Padomaic by definition.
Very fair opinion! I like your thoughts!
@@ABardsBallad I'm pretty deeply invested in TES lore and a fan of your works, as resident of Ukraine your videos is what saving me when I got power outages so I always pre download them. You making Akatoshs work :)
Well, of course I was.
"right" and "wrong" lose their meaning as one approaches full realization of CHIM.
😅
Brother really said "ya, lets ripoff Nerd of the Rings".. pathetic
True