The Salamander Letter and the Mark Hofmann forgeries Ep. 59
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- Опубліковано 20 жов 2024
- In this episode, Dave talks about one of the weirdest, most wild happenings in Latter-day Saint Church (LDS Church or Mormon Church) history: The curious case of Mark Hofmann. He was an expert forger, con artist, and ultimately a murderer as well. Dave explains what Hofmann forged (the White Salamander Letter, amongst other things), how the Church was affected, and why Hofmann’s scheme ultimately unraveled.
More info on this subject from our website: bit.ly/35D0uTg
Text of the Salamander Letter: lat.ms/2Nl5l4S
From the Church after Hofmann confession: bit.ly/2Nj4RMt
The extent of Hofmann’s interactions with the Church and its leaders: bit.ly/32lXNmy
1987 New York Times article on Mark Hofmann: nyti.ms/2CgRbLR
A chronology of events surrounding Mark Hofmann: bit.ly/2pBhwlc
President Dallin H. Oaks responds to Hofmann forgery criticisms: bit.ly/36BCcdo
An extensive bibliography of sources for anyone wanting to dive deep: bit.ly/34CWT70
Is this segment scripted? Yes! Here’s why: bit.ly/2Gf3pIS
Watch more Faith and Beliefs videos: bit.ly/2BlOxEB
Chat with Dave on Facebook: bit.ly/2QQ0HKR
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Guys fun fact: My mother has just informed me that my grandmother was Hofmann's personal nurse after he was injured by his own bomb. I need to ask that woman some questions!
There is a story that one of the nurses overheard him confess his guilt (possibly in front of his lawyers) but was not allowed to testify in court due to confidentiality. If this story involves your grandmother, that would be fascinating...
@@scottvance74 I chatted with her briefly about what she remembered from the experience, but she didn't mention anything about that. She said he was very quiet, quite shy. Didn't say much. But she did also say she was his personal nurse, and (according to her recollection) she was the only nurse allowed to see him. So if that happened, it probably would have happened to her. That said, I'm thinking it's probably just a rumor.
@@davidsnell2605 Thanks for asking. I just looked it up (pp 70-75 in "Salamander by Signature Books). It is unclear that she heard anything, but the lawyers were arguing over whether or not she could testify. At one point he asked to make a statement and she informed him of his right to a lawyer if the book is right. Evidently she was later allowed to testify (but may have not done so because the trial ended in a plea bargain). Sounds like a stressful couple of days with all of the police around and Hoffman being in somewhat critical condition.
@@scottvance74 Thanks for looking that up! Very interesting indeed. Yeah I don't think my grandmother ever testified in court (I imagine that would have been something she would have remembered) but fascinating nonetheless. Crazy times.
This is indeed a fun fact.
I had absolutely zero knowledge of this topic and what this video was claiming to be about before clicking on it. I learned something!
This was great, thanks for all of the information about this David. What you're doing means a lot.
My pleasure!
According to my dad, who was part of church history circles at byu in the 70s, said that he was suspicious of Hoffman. His "discoveries" were too convenient. For context, most of the Pratt archives are only there because my dad went to descendents asking if they had any letters or documents. After the deaths of the early apostles, many of their letters were divided out to the family. When you have plural wives they get around. It's a shame.
I wonder how much cool stuff we'd find if we just went door-knocking in Nauvoo and asked to sift through peoples' old basement boxes.
When someone makes a once-in-a-lifetime document discovery (unpublished Dickinson poem, Twain letter, Abe Lincoln, etc.) EVERY MONTH. Yeah, that is suspicious.
If Abraham teaches us anything it’s that prophets aren’t immune to being deceived.
Yes...why didn't God let Isaac know he was not blessing Esau? Hmmm...
Mmmm, I don't think so, personaly I heard for 20 years all the leaders talk about how to live to have the spirit and how the spirit show you the true, and how they are living prophets with the priesthood keys and bla bla bla.
@@miguelsolares6520 Sounds like you have "bla bla bla"-ed yourself right out of the church.
Man, Mark Hofmann tried to trick Latter-day Saints and murdered two other members? Wow. Than this means Latter-day Saints are indeed the victims and always has been. Mark is not, he is the bad guy here and he broke the commandment of no false witnessing. He caused a whole charade of false witnessing. Yeah Mark Hofmann, I'll just meme quote Obi Wan from Star Wars in my own words(Latter-day Saint style), "YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE, YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BRING GREATNESS TO THE CHURCH, TO BE CHRIST LIKE NOT JOIN SATAN AND DESTROY THE CHURCH WITH LIES, GOING AGAINST JESUS, OUR LORD & SAVIOR!"
Anyone else think that Mark Hofmann here is like Anakin and that Latter-day Saints to some extent when it comes to Holy Sacred Temples, are like the Jedi plus trials in life? (Except we can get married)
"Because they're normal people". Exactly. The problem is they claim to be prophets, seers, and revalators that talk to and for God. What is the point of having a prophet if you can't be sure what he is telling you is really from God or not. How can you ever be sure that what he thinks is from God isn't really just another thing he was deceived about?
Well, it helps when they say, "Thus saithe the Lord..." Revelation from the days of Joseph until now has followed a clear pattern. It has never been every stray comment. It is no different than Joseph being mislead by John Bennet. We can claim they talk for God without believing they are His sock puppets.
Why does a doctor always suggest getting a second opinion if he's an expert? What's the point of trusting a doctor if you can never be sure if he's making the right call for you? Because you work with what you've got; that's a principle the Lord wants us to learn. Speaking of uncertainty and second opinions, that's essentially what Gordon B Hinckley said; he said something like "the documents are probably real, but we still don't know 100% for sure." The Lord didn't see fit to reveal the hoax yet because experts were going to discover it anyway. (That's how the Lord works; he leaves many, many things to mankind to work out for themselves so they can learn and grow.) Hinckley basically said "they're real, but don't quote me on that" because he knew the belief that the documents were real was from an imperfect scientific process, not from the Lord. If he said, in so many words, "don't quote me on this", let's do him a favor and not quote him on it.
This is actually one of your better & more accurate pieces. My slight issues with is:
At 2:05 when you assign motive to Hoffman: I think it was more complex than this. I think that Hoffman's main intent may have been to help people understand that early church history was full of magic which included seer stones, etc.,. This was not well known outside of academic circles at that time.
At 4:02 you state that the gig was up. Actually, it took months (or even years) for investigators to figure out what really happened and the extent of the forgeries.
You also talk about the church "supposedly suppressing" these new documents and try to normalize this behavior. The church appears to have actually suppressed the information, and continued this trend when it excommunicated scholars for their writings in the 1990s. It continues to suppress information today by creating false narratives around the seer stones to make them seem more plausible. When was the last time you saw a picture of the white seer stone? But, on the whole I enjoyed this video.
If you believe Hoffman then you are gullible
@@noodle860 The motives which I propose for Hoffman are not something that I have come up with, but rather that of various reporters who investigated the matter for years. I recommend that you read "Salimander" by Sillitoe and Roberts. Indeed as you note, given what we know about Hoffman one would tend to discount anything which he said as more than likely false. This propensity for deception can be found in others as well.
George McBride Dallin H. Oaks believed it. He defended it in a talk or something titled “Reading Church History.” Do you think he’s gullible?
This was by far my favorite Faith's and beliefs episode! Thanks for the Olan Roger's and Styx references.
Olan Rogers and Styx are both wonderful gifts to this planet haha.
amazing video! Would be good if you would make a video of the netflix documentary as well
Thanks for the idea!
They just did!
I've never heard of this, great video.
I never heard of this, but as an LDS member born in the 2000s, of course I didn't. It lines up with what I know about prophets. We are here on this earth to learn, prophets included. This was a learning opportunity for them and the rest of the church.
What a great way to spin things.
But doesnt scripture say that the prophets have the power of discernment?
@@michaellopez4746 That doesn't mean they have the power to discern all things at all times. They can only discern what God sees fit for them to know. God allows us our agency, which means He often won't intervene when evil people do evil things.
@@amonk32 don't you think that's a bit convenient?
@@amonk32 also just like any lawyer you want the best representation right. Well I'd assume God would too and yet he seems to have hired a regular person with no supernatural gifts. You hear of all these specific types of miracles including ones done by prophets and yet the ones we have today are honestly full of crap. It's all bs. I literally sat in a class just a few months ago cause I support my LDS friends, and they were literally teaching an idea on anti church material and the method they taught was practically cognitive dissonance by definition. I was completely shocked that nobody realized what they were saying. Even the person talking likely had no clue. It's really sad. I had to leave but of course I didn't. Say anything. Leaving the church can be both liberating and hard because of the people that you leave behind which most won't stay in your life outside of trying to get you back.
BIG difference between admitting that all men are imperfect, and the difference between a SEER and revelator not seeing this letter as a fake. Why wouldn’t God make that known?
D&C 10:37
Why didn't God let Isaac(a prophet) know that it was not Esau he was blessing? Mysterious ways...
Why would he take away the learning opportunity?
Ok y’all, to each their own. Thanks for your responses.
Dude is like the real life Riddler. The sense of needing to see people’s faces when he lies to them, counterfeiting, deception, a feeling of intellectual superiority, the fact that he doesn’t resort to Violence till he thinks he’s stuck. And even then the inadvertent violence using mail bombs. I will not glorify him but the way the documentary builds up his techniques is some meticulous work that I hope to see replicated in The Batman
Yes Joseph Smith totally was a master con man
Fascinating! Thank you for the video!
Well, I guess you all are not going to like that Netflix movie "Murder Among Mormons".
Just watched it. I loved it. Wasn’t really a slight to the Church
Jokes on you. They just reviewed it and liked it!
I'm not really familiar with LDS lore. At the beginning of the documentary I was so confused if the freakout with the letter was that there was a salamander or that it was white.
The whole thing would be hilarious if Hoffman didn't kill people to try to cover his forgeries up....
@@KittyKraftStudio The freak out was more that the details in the salamander letter seemed to contradict details of the origin of the church as recorded and taught by the founder/first prophet, Joseph Smith.
I also agree - it's unfortunate he resorted to murder.
how could prophets get deceived by a man? didn't god tell them that these docs were fake?
That is not the claim the LDS Church makes. The claim is that Heavenly Father gives them instructions at times, not that they have a 24 hour zoom connection.
@@jj18057 I do not think you understand the concept of a truth claim in logical syllogisms.
Where is the movie based on this??
At first I thought this guy was completely unrelated to the Mark Hoffman from the Saw movies.
Then the bomb story came up and honestly that sounds like something the Saw character would do.
Can church leaders ever tell-by way of revelation-the authenticity of documents?
It's possible. After all, we are talking about information from the creator of the universe.
On the other hand, it's probably not that often it happens. For an instance, it wasn't untill a couple of millenia from when it was written that it was revealed through Joseph that the song of Solomon is "not inspired".
Why does it happen? I don't know but I certain that it has higher spiritual benefits for us in one way or the other
Durante Angelo: what does it mean for a document to be “inspired?”
@@seans5289 it means given by divine guidance
Durante Angelo: So, you’re saying the Song of Solomon wasn’t given by divine guidance, and Joseph Smith was able to discern this by divine guidance. Are other books of scripture also not given by divine guidance?
@@seans5289 I think the Twilight series is a good candidate ;).
PLEASE make a video about the new Netflix documentary!!!!’
YESSSS
They just did!
Look at Shannon Flynn real closely. He has a major tick in his right eye when he lies.
Riveting story, what was I doing in 1983? oh kids.
I never heard of this until Netflix.
Question: If "The Spirit" departs someone at Midnight, what time does he come back on duty?
Sunrise? 9am? Noon?
Thanks!
Thank you very much for this informative video!!! I only learned of it today on a podcast about the Lori Vallo Daybell & Chad Daybell case!!! I hadn’t joined the church then… never heard of this before! Wow!!! What was this guy thinking?!?!
Thank you for the explanation. Everyone that has a brain can see that your explanation makes sense!
Glad it was helpful!
As a norseman I think you Christians are funny.
U worship a transgender named Odin
liking the video because of the olan rogers reference..
😀
I always thought the salamander letter was authentic, and the rest were forgeries. Good quick overview.
Paraphrasing from GBH’s “Lord, Increase Our Faith”: Occasionally unfounded conspiracies are written then trumpeted across much of the world as documents challenging the authenticity of the Church. Latter-day Saint General Authorities reply explaining such vehicles of lies really have nothing to do with the essentials of our history. But some few of little faith, who seemingly are always quick to believe the negative, accepted as fact the pronouncements and predictions of biased media. “I recall a letter from an individual who asked that his name be taken from the records of the Church because he could no longer believe in a church that had to do with an experience with a salamander.”
I always wondered why a prophet would not be warned snd know it’s fake
Because we are taught to study it out then ask if it be right and we don't have infinite time for everything
What good is the spirit of discernment?
Check out the documentary that was on A&E same topic.
I never understood why a white salamander is any sillier than a talking snake.
I think the "white salamander" had connections to folk magic while the talking snake is just a poor translation and understanding of ancient Hebrew.
wow I remember the bombs going off in SLC as a young child but never knew why
Amazing video!
If these guys were prophets they would have known
Got it. Suppression is not suppression if you get caught! Or was it suppression is suppression and its normal?
I had a dream about this and I'm not a mormon or a critic of the mormon church. I came across this video by googling white salamander code based on I dream I had about falling into a cave, in this cave there was a pond of water and 4 white salamanders asking me to decipher a letter they had, they insisted that I could tell the world what the letter said. When I woke up I googled that and I came across this finding.
He could have gotten away with his forgeries, if he hadnt become too greedy.
You make an excellent point, Mark. Definitely begs the question about how many doccuments that are currently believed to be authentic are not.
And subsequentally how many people now hold fervent belief systems based upon them.
See the movie "Can you ever forgive me?" It's about another forger.
it's too bad the Lord couldn't see through this garbage. Nope. The Church bought it all. haha
oh so this isn't about the Saw character.
This reminds me of the Hitler diaries hoax in Germany in the 1980s. The thing that impresses me in both cases is content. Hitler and Joseph Smith are very well researched historical figures. Every word you write (if you got the handwriting correct) will be suspect.
This was a fun video. Thanks for making this.
Wowza
Might have to put this out again due to the Netflix documentary coming out of March 3rd.
They just made a video responding to the documentary!
Well done video!!
Forgery? The Church should know all about that.
Not true, not all is included in the Joseph Smith papers brother. My father in law is in the know, by that I mean he works closely to this project.
Why haven't anyone got to see the whole letter? Even if it was a forgery? I still would have liked to see what it said? Hmmmm ????????????
How anyone can believe Joseph Smith is way beyond me.
Exactly. He was crazy.
Just like Noah and Moses and just about every other prophet.....people never thought they were crazy.
It's always the ex mormons that do this. Great presentation as usual
@@stelladavis7832 exmo got to exmo
@@stelladavis7832 I'd love to have your source on those documents being bought with tithing money. I hadn't heard that before and would be quite surprised if that were actually the case.
@@davidsnell2605 I haven't read it in a while, but the book "Salamander" written by some of the reporter who covered the story for the SLC tribune is a pretty good and factual account. The documents were acquired in at least two ways: 1) direct purchase and 2) through intermediaries under the direction of Hinckley and Pinegar. Hoffman was given money by the LDS church both directly and through intermediaries who were instructed by Mormon leaders to purchase the said documents. I believe strongly that attempts were made to acquire documents indirectly to allow for plausible deniability. The church had been burned in the past including at least one incident in the 1970s with someone who claimed to have some ancient plates. In some cases during the 1983-1985 period the church did deny that they had the said documents. Keep in mind, this was after Arrington was shut down as the church historian and sent packing to BYU. It was also after Bushman's first book was rejected by several apostles and they had to cancel the new history publications slated for the early 80s. Bushman would go on to publish this with a scholarly press. Anyhow, this was a period of closing the vaults, possibly as a reaction to the relatively open period between 1972 -1982. According to a private source, in about 1990 the church would acquire the green seer stone via a donation made by Hinckley's private lawyer at his request. That seer stone still hasn't seen the light of day, so the practice of purchasing and burring artifacts continues to go on it seems. On the other hand, the JS papers project is awesome and a sign of openness.
S Vance: You’re killing it in all of these comments, dude.
book of mormon even shows the nephites had hardened their hearts when being taught by sons of mosiah more than the lamanites
Read the books on the Hofmann case. They are better than the Netflix version.
Hofmann got a priesthood blessing, commanding that he not die after blowing himself up. God saved a murderer, but forgot to warn the two innocent victims not to get blown up in the first place.
The books don't whitewash the church’s complicity in buying forged documents.
Who needs apostles, prophets, and Holy Ghosts who get duped so easily?
Do you feel the same about the FBI and Smithsonian Institute who were also fooled? They were not tricked easily, but by arguably the greatest document forger in the history of the United States.
@@brettmajeske3525 I expect the FBI, Smithsonian, AJ Miller (the Australian “Jesus”), Catholics, Muslims, etc. to be wrong just as often as nonreligious people. The difference is that Mormons claim to be the one and only true church of God. I was taught for years that the reason Mormonism is so great is because they have prophets and continuing revelation who have a direct line to god. I no longer believe in Mormon woo woo, so it makes perfect sense to me that the bombings couldn't be stopped or Mormons leaders can be fooled. See the book, “Mormonism and the Majic World View.”
@@quacks2much Well you are adding to what the LDS claims concerning Prophecy and Revelation actually are. Both the Doctrine and Covenants and the various teachings of the Presidents of Church make very clear that Prophets have the same direct line as every other member. Everyone who is worthy and faithful has the identical right to revelation as the Prophet. The Prophet still needs to pray, fast, and study out the matter before receiving revelation. It is not a superpower used to fight crime, which seems to be the assumption.
You act like the LDS claim is that the Prophet has a divine earbud with God providing a 24/7 commentary. That is not, and has never been the claim. Angels and visions are rare, they communicate doctrine and expound the gospel. The Hoffman papers were a matter of historical curiosity. While the First Presidency did authorize the spending of funds, they did based on the recommendations of the Church's History Department. After purchase, they spent more time and money investigating claims. The whole time it was treated as a scholastic endeavor not a religious one.
@@brettmajeske3525 Quite simply, you don't know what the Mormon prophets have taught. The church teaches much more woo woo than you are claiming. I am one of those gluttons for punishment who read the Four Standard Works a few times, and grew up as a Mormon and I was taught way different than you in seminary and priesthood meeting. I rarely even missed a church meeting. We were taught things like we should never turn down a calling because church leaders (”the Lord’s annointed”) are inspired of god. We were taught to follow the prophet because he (it's always a he) will never lead us astray (there are conflicting teachings both ways). We were taught that Mormon prophets actually meet with Jesus in the Temples. Further, the Mormons are so inconsistent that it's easy to pick and choose almost anything you want to believe. For example, I was taught, and it is in the Book of Mormon, that Native Americans’ skin would turn white and their personalities would become “delightsome.” The church has tampered with the Book of Mormon, so that Native Americans will now supposedly become “pure and delightsome.”
I was actually taught in a priesthood meeting (before the first moon landing) that the Mormon prophet said we would never go to the moon, and I read it in the priesthood manual of the day (I’m a dummy, I read my dad’s priesthood manuals). My dad taught me that Adam was god from Brigham Young teachings in the Journal of Discources, but later refuted by the church. My dad taught me things like blood atonement and a hate for blacks who dared marry one of his 7 children. I’m fortunate that the area where I lived (Tacoma, Washington and Quincy, Washington), the public schools taught me how bad racism is, and racism thus didn’t stick.
As for personal revelation, members only get that alleged revelation for themselves and their family. A Mormon prophet supposedly gets it for the whole church.
My patriarchal blessing actually had a “prophecy” about me. It failed spectacularly. I will post it someday, to show the kinds of woo woo the Mormon church engages in. It is on paper about 50 years old, typed on an old, manual typwriter that had a fading ribbon. It threatened my early literal death, a much unappreciated prophecy for a 15 year old kid. I didn't think much of it at that age because I thought I would be a Mormon all my life, but as I started realizing the Mormon church was a fraud, it worried me some until I realized I was fully convinced the Mormon church is an abusive cult-type religion, especially for some people (for example, gays).
I recommend listening to Radio Free Mormon’s podcast. He is a former Mormon missionary and a lawyer who knows his stuff.
@@quacks2much “Quite simply, you don't know what the Mormon prophets have taught.”
I am fairly conversant with many of the controversies. The issue is how one defines “the Church”. There are many personal opinions and cultural traditions floating around, often mutually exclusive from each other. I know a Gospel Doctrine teacher who preferred using McConkie’s ‘Mormon Doctrine’ instead of the official materials, was he teaching what ‘the Church’ instructed him to?
Obviously not. It bothers me when ex-members claim ‘the Church’ taught X, Y, or Z because that is what their parents or some teacher taught them, even when it contradicts official policy and canon doctrine. I have never understood why people trust books written and published years before someone was ordained an Apostle more than what that same person taught after becoming an Apostle or Prophet.
“The church teaches much more woo woo than you are claiming. I am one of those gluttons for punishment who read the Four Standard Works a few times, and grew up as a Mormon and I was taught way different than you in seminary and priesthood meeting.”
So if I understand you correctly, you are claiming you recognize what you were taught by teachers in your ward did not agree with the Doctrines contained in the Standard Works? I can understand why the would be disconcerting. Not everyone experienced that.
“We were taught things like we should never turn down a calling because church leaders (”the Lord’s annointed”) are inspired of god.”
Well I was taught we should follow Joseph’s instructions and pray for confirmation with every calling. The default would be to accept certainly, but that it is always appropriate to share concerns with the person extending the call.
Both my parents were born and raised in Michigan, and were both converts. Before I was born my Dad was offered a job in Idaho. My mother was extended a calling as Chorister for the Primary. She could neither read music notation, play the piano, or was familiar with any of the songs. She was blessed that her mother-in-law had been a professional singer and Choir Director (even after my Grandmother joined the Church she was still conducting a choir at another church down the street for several years).
Jump 10 years later, my parents had returned to Michigan and my Father was serving as in a bishopric. He extended a call to be a pianist. The person accepted the call without mentioning they didn’t know how to play the piano. An issue that could have been resolved was not because of fear of speaking out. He shared with us children the importance of humility and honesty. Several times he had been inspired to offer callings to people unqualified for the position. By the time he was called as a Bishop himself, he had learned that the inspiration to call someone was often more about the contact than the calling. Talking with people about their concerns for one Calling who lead to more inspiration on how to help them. Such was in complete consistency with the Handbook of Instructions.
In the years since my mother was extended that first Calling, she has grown to love the primary songs and music in general. All of her children learned the basics of piano. As frustrating as it was to depend on others to help her through, she learned and grew.
“We were taught that Mormon prophets actually meet with Jesus in the Temples.”
You make it sound like it is a privilege only available to the Prophet? The Keys of the Ministering of Angels belong to the Office of Deacon. The historical records of the Church indicate that Angelic visits occur more often than Divine. Joseph Smith only recorded five instances of seeing the Savior. Most of his instruction was from Angels. In the records since his time that pattern seems to have held true. I certainly admit that the culture of the Church implies all Revelation is accompanied by Theophany, in spite of the teachings of the Prophets themselves. Both in Scripture, and in the teachings of the Presidents themselves is a different message. Communion with the Savior does not require His physical presence. Sometimes faith is rewarded with such a witness, but it is just a likely to be a humble Nursery Leader as an Apostle or Prophet.
Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F Smith, David O McKay, Spencer W Kimball, all recorded experiences of miraculous manifestations. Kimball wrote extensively on receiving Revelation and the importance of humility in doing so. When asked if he talked with God, his answer was, “Yes, every night when I kneel down to pray.” He was insistent that everyone could have the same relationship with Jesus that he did.
“Further, the Mormons are so inconsistent that it's easy to pick and choose almost anything you want to believe.”
There are a lot of inconsistent traditions and interpretations. Most of which were never official. The Journal of Discourses was never a Church publication. George Watts owned the copyright, and recent evidence shows he often made changes to the sermons he published. McConkie published Mormon Doctrine over a decade before becoming an Apostle.
“I was actually taught in a priesthood meeting (before the first moon landing) that the Mormon prophet said we would never go to the moon, and I read it in the priesthood manual of the day (I’m a dummy, I read my dad’s priesthood manuals).”
I would be very interested in the exact quote. I have heard others make that claim, without ever providing a true citation. My father’s library only goes back to 1970. I have done internet searches looking for the quote, but none come up.
“My dad taught me that Adam was god from Brigham Young teachings in the Journal of Discourses, but later refuted by the church.”
That refutation happened during the Presidency of John Taylor, the third Prophet. George Watt’s, the editor and publisher of the Journal, was excommunicated. Unlike urban legend, he was never a personal secretary to Brigham Young, although he was a friend. Watt was a reporter for the publication that became the Salt Lake Tribune. The Journal was published independently from the Church and Watt earned all the profits from its sale. Taylor, Woodruff, and Snow would all go on to claim that the Journal misunderstood Young’s teachings. Even during the days of Brighm Young it was never an official publication. Yet even though many of the Journal’s teachings were refuted by every Prophet after Young, for some strange reason it persisted. Your father was not the only one who chose to treat George Watt as more reliable than the Doctrine and Covenants or Pearl of Great Price, or even General Conference talks from living Prophets. That would be on your father’s head, not the Church.
“As for personal revelation, members only get that alleged revelation for themselves and their family. A Mormon prophet supposedly gets it for the whole church.”
Yes that is the only difference described in Scripture. Both still need to seek Revelation through study, fasting, and prayer. The D&C specifically states that Revelation doesn’t just come, and that was specifically dealing with Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.
Great job!
did anyone ever notice that the sentence: "which take" is completely even though there is a machine hole in front of it?
Hole machines were invented in 1880, but the letter is said to have been written in 1830? 😂
joe smith dupped the entire church till he made up a translation of egyptian plats that were a page out of the egyptian book of the dead not what smith made it out to be
D, ,
They had no way of knowing that the documents were fake! Too bad they did not hear from Joseph Smith as he should have already been a god by then. Oh, but he was too busy with his heavenly wives populating his planet with spirit babies. But that's not it at all. You see, the god Joseph Smith was at war with all the other LDS gods for stealing their wives.
People don't have to be killed for forgeries
but, inspiration! lol
The prophets aren’t supposed to be “normal” people? 🧐
I do not understand this comment. If not normal than what?
Don’t understand why he didn’t just forge money
Money is harder to forge than documents.
Netflix is making a limited series about your video!!!
Hinkley could claim this if he didn’t also claim to be a prophet Church leaders dupe the congregation.
Prophets, seers and revelatetors could not discern the devil because "WELL, THEY ARE JUST PEOPLE TOO" Really? REALLY?
Really.
LDS Doctrine is that they are ordinary men, with extraordinary callings. A Prophet has the same right to Revelation as a Nursery Leader, just a broader range of responsibilities. In the D&C Joseph Smith is constantly being called to repentance because of his weakness. I talk to my father about once a month, that doesn't mean he tells me what to do about every single activity I engage in.
When people believe in forgeries instead of the authentic truth, I can see why the Church has so many enemies
At the time the "authentic truth" was that Joseph translated the plates via the Urim and Thummim which were glasses attached to a breast plate. This "authentic truth" is a lie. The Book of Mormon was created using a seer stone in a hat. The forgeries were intended to get people to look into church history, and in this they were largely a failure. It took the internet and another 30 years before the church would openly talk about the seer stone (2013). And yes - claiming to have the "authentic truth" while lying through your teeth is in fact why the church has so many enemies.
Just seen it, I laughed at the whole car and gun thing, it was corny.
Yes they're human but the highest leaders of the LDS church should have spiritual guidance so why didn't the spirit tell them that they were fake
That is not how revelation works, read the D&C.
Wow he looks like a real creep lol
So what you are telling me is that your so called Prophets are in fact just regular people? Congrats my friend, because thats actually what everybody knew from the begining!; what most of people cannot really take I guess, is a religious organization which seriously claims to be directly guided by Jesus Christ himself, but when this kind of things happen, this same organization just dont take any responsability of it, and conducta itself just like any other regular religious organization.
That is a a false dichotomy. Prophets have always been regular people, but that doesn't mean they are not also following the the directions of Christ. Just because a police officer is a regular person doesn't not mean there is not also a Police Chief directing them. The fact that there is a Police Chief doesn't mean that every action taken by every police officer is perfectly line with the will of that Chief. The President of the United States appoints Cabinet Secretaries, but they still have free will and moral agency to lead their respective organizations. When a player on a football makes a mistake, we do not blame the Principal who hired the coach who appointed the team captain. Not do we say, "That player made a mistake, their school must not have a Principal. See, the Coach is just an ordinary person." The LDS Church has never claimed infallibility for the Prophet or any of its leaders. We believe the Lord can use the weak things of the world to accomplish his purposes. We can Claim that Christ is the Head, without believing He is a micro-manager unwilling to let us make mistake so we can learn from them. Indeed, in LDS Doctrine, that was Satan's plan. The Atonement of Jesus Christ exists so we can make mistakes and then repent. The Lord give his servants general directives, and then lets utilize their own agency to figure out the best way to do so.
@@brettmajeske3525 Are you seriously comparing the mistake a regular person can make and the consequences of it, with the mistake a Prophet who talks in the name of God can make and the consequenses which that mistake may bring over all members of a Church. If the Leader of the Church can make any mistake even if He is not talking about irrelevant issues, what is the point of having a Prophet who receive direct rebelation from God? It is true that ancient prophets made mistakes, like David or Salomon by example, however those mistakes did not afect Gods purpose with his People.
@@albertjgv17 I do not understand your complaint. You admit that ancient Prophets were imperfect, then question what good is an imperfect modern Prophet? Prophets are normal people, the Lord asks everyone to be a Prophet in their own home. The US Ambassador to China is in regular contact with the US State Department, that doesn't mean the Ambassador con not make a mistake, and if grave enough be removed. It also doesn't mean if they are not removed after an error, that the President does not exist. You clearly do not understand what we mean by the word Prophet. The LDS Church has never claimed that level of perfection for its leaders.
All this proves is that the LDS leadership and president are NOT gods advocate on earth.
Fascinating. When UA-camrs are exposed, they can just delete comments. Further demonstrates that suppression is endemic to LDS culture, and the culture is only interested in choir preaching, not genuine dialogue.
Liar lying to liars 😂😂😂 what a shock such BS all of it.
Two thumbs up? I think it’s brilliant.
Anyone knows that you are bearing false witness at this point.
Shannon Flyn is as GUILTY AS SIN
I thought so too!!!
Can’t you do better with all your MGF aka church funding? LOL!
I do not understand what point you are trying to make.
@@brettmajeske3525 yeah, pretty hard to comprehend.
@@brettmajeske3525 yeah, pretty hard to comprehend.
How's that magic underwear thing coming along...
3:56 was that called for? People died you know.. maybe grow up a bit huh?
I knew it was a fake religion even before Netflix, I’m a Christian from the God of the Bible
Lol. Bruh hate to burst your bubble but the Bible is just as fake....