Just so everyone is aware, we will have a 45-minute video about polygamy coming out next week. 10 minutes was not enough time to discuss this topic. So be on the lookout for that coming out next week!👍
Was there ever a release of the 45 minute video? I would be genuinely more curious as to how the Church of LDS dealt with the Apostasy in their own religion post-1890 than justification for the head prophet.
Generally attacks on polygamy are just attacks on low hanging fruit. There are many more substantial issues with Mormonism that demand our attention then polygamy. That being said, the issue isn't so much about polygamy but rather the character of the early church and its claims to be led by a prophet of high character. 1)Polygamy was initially required by J.Smith in order to make it into the celestial kingdom... i.e. to become gods. 2)Later the church just upped and ended the practice and now you can even be excommunicated for it. Just like it changed it doctrine on numerous issues such as the trinity and blacks. 3)J.Smith chose to engage in polygamy without the knowledge of his wife. He had been married to something like 20 woman before Emma found out. After being caught he "revealed" the "Sarah rule" which means that the first wife can choose to say no to another marriage. 4)Out of the 30-40 wives that J.Smith had, about 12 of them were already married to other men which means he was practicing polygamy here but polyandry. 5)J.Smith sent out missionaries to foreign countries who looked for vulnerable young poor girls and brought them back to the states where they would be divvied up amongst the men of the presidency. 6)J.Smith outright lied about his polygamy until he was outed. The issue of polygamy therefore, is more then just a renewal of ancient practices, but something that goes as deep as possible sex trafficking.
Why did he marry a mother and her Daughter if it was only to link families? Why did he Marry two women after he sent there husbands on missions? Why did he threaten a 14 year old with damnation of her family.
The answer to the question is YES!!! The man was a creep and a paedophile. JS had a full harem of about 36-40 wives if not more, many of whom where under age, seven to be exact. He also fathered children with some of them. God sent an angel and threaten him with a flaming sword if he didn’t marry a fourteen year old ? Seriously?
@@iowaguy6470 If you study Jacobs two polygamists wives Lea and Rachiel you will see a direct type replicated for Joseph Smith. I'll send you links a little later. The entire house of Israel was born through polygamy. Even Jesus Christ himself came through a polygamist family and was called the son of David. Christian's avoid that biblical fact like the plague.
I've been a member of the church for decades, and some of this information about Joseph Smith is completely new to me. My experience in the church is to have patience and wait on answers. So glad that other things didn't floor me so badly that I gave up on the church. Now I ask God for understanding and let the Holy Spirit teach me.
I agree with XYU. It is most important that we listen to and follow the Holy Spirit first. We are also asked to search out answers in the scriptures as well. You will find that no other church teaches the fulness of the gospel and God's plan of salvation more accurately and fully than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No other church fits the description of Christ's church as recorded in the Bible more closely either. Yes, Joseph Smith made mistakes, though not as grievous mistakes as anit-mormons poor research would suggest. The fact that he was immature and made mistakes and yet the church still grew is very strong evidence that God was in control, not Joseph Smith. But the evidence does show that Joseph Smith definitely grew into his role as the prophet of the restoration. If you think about king David, in the bible. He committed adultery, then murder as a prophet. He fell from his status as prophet. Does that mean the church fell apart? no. Joseph was never guilty of such immorality or depravity and it was never his church, it is Christ's and He built it. Just remember, the work is God's, not the prophets. Prophets are called because they are a tool in the Lord's hands. This doesn't change who they are, their biases, their human nature. But if they allow the Lord to work through them and seek to be like Christ, like any person, they will gradually become less of a "natural man" and will grow from "grace to grace."
@XYU I like your approach, I what taught to study things out and it should make sense in my mind and heart. Prayer helps me too. Many LDS issues I've had to pray about, also about the Bible for things like Noah's Ark...that's my recent deliema and I actually am getting my answer from an LDS source. Before I searched I believed the author of Genesis was telling the story from what he knew the world was so when he said the entire earth he ment only what he knew of. So from the LDS site they mention the hebrew word used for earth is "eretz" which means earth or land. So I believe more in a flooding of a certain land and not the globe. There's just too much evidence that the entire world was not flooded.
Practice polygamy before the New Testament, you mean. New Testament states clearly that an elder is to be the husband of ONE wife. Be brave and be fair to divide the facts correctly.
Manggin Misao I never claimed he did. You on the other hand made a claim and are deflecting from the argument at hand. So again, when did Jesus say that polygamy was adultery?
Manggin Misao Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Once again, please furnish some evidence to show that Jesus opposed polygamy and called it adultery
@Manggin Misao I love how complex you've made jesus' position. Like, you started with "polygamy is adultery" then went and suggested that we claim something about two fleshes, and now you're saying Christ made specific exceptions. I'm about to end your whole career, so sit down. If a man and a wife become one flesh, how many fleshes are there? If that one flesh and another woman become one flesh, how many fleshes are there? It's amazing to me how quickly evangelicals rush to insist that hellenistic ideas like sexual repression and strict monogamy are somehow Jesus breathed. I'll gladly discuss any verse you come up with, so feel free to bring them up. And in case you missed it, the conjunction in your matthew quote is "and" not or, and the discussion is about divorce, do no, it doesn't have any reference to polygyny, for or against.
@Manggin Misao lolz, couldn't rebut so went for calling me "slow". I thought you'd at least try, that's why I gave you such a long time before replying. That and having a life. Anyhoo. I would recommend that if you're going to call someone stupid, you should be sure that your reply matches or exceeds theirs, lest people consider how much more foolish you must be. Let me correct my typo. Where it says "do no," it's should say "so no," Have a wonderful day you sweet child of God, you.
Same! The truth shall be revealed, friend. Turn from the false visitation (Galatians 1: 8) and Joseph, and find true grace in Christ. I enjoyed this video (as I do most), but it is sufficiently lacking in LDS scholarship.
I love that you guys are doing a lot of Book of Mormon and Jospeh smith videos :) such a taboo subject and I love your bravery, courage, and fearlessness of tackling such subjects :) keep up the good work :):) we pray for people like you guys out there !
@XYU You mean poorly researched topics based on their biases. I have read a lot of those, and yet when you refute with other evidence they just claim you are false. Their research would fail under real scrutiny, as it has many a times.
@XYU There are also many things in the Book of Mormon that people cannot explain, some of these passages actually match the Bible and other ancient texts that Joseph did not have access to. You would have to look at each individual "error" to figure out what may have happened. Like the one in 2 Nephi 19:1, where it contains 3 words that are not found in the original passage in Isaiah 9:1 and are found in both the KJV as well as the "translation" of the Book of Mormon. The 3 words are italicized so we know which words are filled in in the KJV. It is not unreasonable for Joseph Smith to translate it, realize it doesn't make sense because it seems to be missing 3 words and compare them to the KJV that he had and fill in those 3 words, or fill in the same words because it makes more sense. Either way it doesn't change the meaning of the scripture. Furthermore, after reading the passages that he had just written, he would have read the Bible to compare and may have found the KJV to be clearer and added the italicized words in to the Book of Mormon. Either way, they still can't figure out how Joseph Smith got the record so accurate. You know they just discovered massive cities in South America complete with roadways, where millions of native americans would have lived. Exactly like the Book of Mormon describes. Everyone said that this was another evidence that the Book of Mormon was false, but now they have found these cities as described in the Book of Mormon.
@@beckymcdonald9529 You don't know. The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is more clear and more Christlike than any other in the world. It is more full, it is more complete and has even more knowledge of our God and our Savior and His Atonement.
Interesting video! A couple questions: 1) Why is section 132 still in the D&C? Could it be because there are a few current church officials have had wives that have died and remarried? Will they not have multiple wives (practicing polygamy) when they pass into the next life, and making spiritual children for eternity? 2) Why would God command polygamy as essential for obtaining godhood then change his mind? That is quite a 180-of course, occurring as a revelation from God directly when the LDS were under legal threat from the US government. Lastly, it is important to note that polygamy was never permitted in the Old Testament. This practice was a perversion from the start due to the sinful heart of man. God instructed Moses that the kings of Israel were to have only one wife: “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away.” (Deut. 17:17)
You don't search your scriptures properly. I know God the Father can invoke or revoke any Commandment at any time according to his will and pleasure because God makes all the laws and he can say and do whatever he pleases so thats why we are getting changes all the time in the church because its lead by revelation from God through prophets and apostles or the oracles of God. . The reason why we have multiple sealings in the temple is because of the many marriages people take to themselves here in this lifetime after a spouse dies and they remarry again and have children from those marriages during their lifetime, some people may have up to 3-4 or more of these marriages. So that's why we have more than 1 marriage sealing to a wife to these families.
You are wasting your time arguing with the early church of over 150 years ago. We are in 2019 now, not in the 1840's. its allowed when God Commands it. He ordered Abraham to take wives and the same with King David, but the Lord made it clear when King Solomon and King David after taking the concubines God Commanded to take they also went later on and took other additional wives to them that God did NOT COMMAND them to take then that's when they had sinned against God. Just like also in the book of Ezra and possibly Nemeniah when the people of Israel took strange wives to themselves without the Lord's commanding them to take them they commited sin before God in doing so because they took wives of the Caanites, Egyptians, Hitties, Perizzites, Jebusits, Ammonites, Moabites and the Amorites took all their daughters unto themselves without getting the Lord's Consent, but all the wives that the Lord DID COMMAND David to take to Concubines from his masters house was allowed from God. Its only counted for righteousness to take concubines only when God commands it.. Where things started going all wrong for David is when he killed Uriah the Hittie and took Bathsehba unlawfully to wife against the Lord's Commandment. You can find this rebuke very clearly from the Lord's own Prophet Nathan: 8. I gave thee thy masters house, thy masters wives into thy bossom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah, and if that had not been too little. i would moreover have given thee such and such things. (2 samuel 12:8) GOD SPEAKING TO DAVID THROUGH HIS PROPHET So polygamy was a practiced approved of by God in ancient times for furthering his own righteous purposes. God can do what he likes when the righteous do whatever he Commands.. Otherwise how do you explain why God told Abraham to say to Pharoah saying that she was her sister instead of saying she was his wife? Pharoah wasn't keeping God's laws so god can deal with Pharoah however he likes... God can revoke or invoke his Commandments to further suit his own righteous purposes. So in the case of the polygamy in the early church, it was granted by God under special circumstances before the commandment was revoked in the manifesto to no longer practice it before the world. And if God has moved it instead into the temple where sacred things are to be kept then that is not the world''s business but God's. So I'm not worried about how the sealing of families is going to be handled by God.
@@germanslice yes, and your argumentation is predicated upon God truly speaking to Joseph. Here in lies the problem. Did Christ not already come and declare the purpose and meaning of marriage? Marriage is a beautiful reflection of Christ and the church. One man and one woman, for life. How could 'god' then come and alter the very words spoken by the Messiah?
Because you don't search the scriptures properly and have come to incomplete conclusions. God the Father along with his Son did speak to Joseph in that grove. But Its not just only Joseph who has seen them both. Stephen also saw them both standing side by side as well when the heavens opened up to him and he saw them both. I'm not interested in your perfect ideals on marriage, that's the world's understanding on marriage for life only, but God's understanding is marriage for time and eternity for what God doeth it shall be forever, not just for life only, so are you more righteous than God by telling the saints what to do on marriage?, Why do you try to counsel the Saints as if you were God himself? Nobody appointed you as Lord and God to tell the Saints what to do in the church. You are 150 years out of date with the church.... .
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I appreciate this simple, honest video. I hope it is appreciated by all who watch it, both members and non members alike. 😊
@@bradensorensen966 they still believe that Jesus is our Savior, I don’t follow the LDS leaders and we should love our neighbor even if we don’t agree on everything if your a man/women of Christ. I’m Catholic though not LDS, just find the different dominations of Christianity interesting
Thanks for the video, I just have a quick question. If God had commanded Abraham and others you mentioned to practice polygamy, where does it say that? I'm seeing that they practiced it, but it had negative effects on their lives, plus there's nothing saying that God had commanded them to practice it, so where are you finding the conclusion that sometimes God allows it and sometimes He doesn't? Thanks!
For heaven sake; If God says you can't do something then you shouldn't do it. If God does not say you can't do something then you can do it if you want to and those who you do it with don't mind. I don't think god would send an angel with a sword to make you do something. I hope Joseph Smith didn't actually say this. If he did I just wouldn't trust him.
@@Hala-ataaif you actually read the chapter you would’ve found this. Jacob 2:27-30 27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; 28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts. 29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes. 30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
@@njlopezfa6514 haha, original. Tell the people who study the lost that they’ve “never read the chapter.” These are the exact verses that prove polygamy is an abomination
Oriental Orthodox Christian here. You did really well with this video. I was most impressed about your own personal thought or belief on something and making sure to express that’s just you. I can honestly say I learned more about the Mormon leader and polygamy in this short video then I would have otherwise sought. I am writing this before checking your cites and sources. Nonetheless keep up the good work bro. -Eritrean-American 🙋🏾♂️
New subscriber and not LDS, but I have some friends who are - these are cool, clever and informative videos that will prevent me from asking my friends stupid, ignorant questions. I'm an American history nut and obviously Mormon history and westward expansion are quite intertwined. Thanks for the engaging content!
What a great ten-minute episode! I doubted you could do the subject justice in so little time. Very well done. I liked and subscribed because of the Spirit I felt. (5 years after you posted it) Now I'll check out the 45-minute video you referred to. Thank you!
You guys did a really great job explaining plural marriage back in the early days of the church. I've tried explaining these things to people before, but it's hard without all the quotes and facts you've provided. I think in the future I will refer this video to others so they can understand it better than when I try to explain it myself.
Here is a fact..... If a man multiply unto himself wives.....His heart will be moved away from God......this is what the Bible says.......it is that plain....it is that precious. We see the consequences throughout history.
@@ryanadams5719 It's true that when men take for themselves multiple wives when God has not allowed it, then it is a sin and can lead to consequences. God sometimes allows men to have multiple wives throughout history including in the bible for many purposes some of which only God knows. King David is an example of this, he was given many wives by God. However, King David lost his favor with God when he lusted after a woman (Bathsheba) that God had not given him, a woman who was married. David killed the woman's husband by sending him into the front lines of battle and then took the woman for himself. Breaking many of God's commandments.
@@JonathonMellor In 2 Samuel 12, the Lord, speaking through Nathan the prophet, says to King David, “I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your arms, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added you many more things like these.” At face value, this seems to suggest that God gave David multiple wives, and then stood ready to add to his harem with divine sanction. Of course, that’s precisely the problem with pressing Scripture into a wooden literal labyrinth, because-in truth-if Nathan’s words are anything at all, they are ironic. David had just murdered a man in order to have another woman appended to his harem. Despite the generosity of the very God who had made him sovereign ruler of the land, the king had stolen the wife of a servant and that to satisfy his carnal lust. Thus, in language that dripped with irony, Nathan the prophet pronounces judgment against Israel’s king. As such, 2 Samuel 12 hardly constitutes divine approval for the practice of polygamy. And this is not a singular case. As with David, Solomon, David’s son, had extravagances in multiplying not only horses, but multiplying wives, and that was a significant factor in the unraveling of a kingdom. Who can forget the explicit admonition of Moses in Deuteronomy 17:17: Do not multiply wives or your heart will be led astray! If this applied to the great kings of Israel, how much more the subjects of the kingdom. Moreover, monogamous marriage is clearly taught in Genesis (2:22-24), and then reiterated by Christ himself. Indeed, Jesus went on to say that, “Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery” (Matt 19:9). Not only so, but marriage is an analogy for the relationship that God has with his people, with the Church, His one and only bride. Furthermore, reading the Bible for all its worth involves recognition that the narratives of Scripture are often descriptive as opposed to prescriptive. The fact that Scripture reveals the patriarchs with all their warts and moles and wrinkles is to warn us of their failures, it’s not to teach us to emulate their practices. Far from blinking at David’s polygamous behavior, the Bible reveals that as a result of his sin, the sword never left his home. Finally, let me say this; As God permitted divorce because of the hardness of men’s hearts, so too He put up with polygamy because of humankind’s insolent stubbornness. Indeed, God causes even the wrath of man to please Him.
I would like to thank you for your information. I myself also think polygamy is very unfair to women. I'm a LDS women who in the last year has had a experience with my 37yr old daughter she contacted me very upset about polygamy and other things. I told her Heavenly father loves us very much. He is so wise and sees the bigger picture. In time we will know why he had these men practice polygamy. I plan on sharing this video with her. So thank you again.
Most (if not all) critics think that the men practiced polygamy because they wanted extra women. Most of the critics are men, hence, we know how men think. We aren't complicated creatures. So when we see a man lying to his wife while he has literally dozens of women secretly, we see clearly that his motive wasn't exactly pure What motive do you think God had for making sure that the leaders got so many more women than the lower down brothers? Why did God want the leaders to have so much pleasure while making the women suffer so much pain? Remember, if it isn't love, it isn't God commanding it This is why critics are shocked at Joseph Smith. Your 37yr old daughter sees what all other men see. Never even once has any prophet in the Bible lied to his wife about having other men's wives secretly. Every time it has been done in modern history it's been by false prophets. So we see Joseph Smith doing this and we see we have 2 options. Either God suddenly started telling his true prophet to act like a false prophet. Or Joseph was simply in the category he appears to be in, based on his actions. He disowned the action both publicly and privately. He even sent away young wives when Emma told him to. These are not the actions of a man who valued the young women he used for his own sexual pleasure. These are like Warren Jeffs, bit with more lying. Even the church's apologetics arm "F.A.I.R." mention that "Oliver Cowdery perceived the relationship between Joseph and Fanny as a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair"" (I would link it but UA-cam may delete my comment if I did. Please Google it to check if you don't trust me) No amount of burning in the bosom will make a rational person accept his actions as godly. He used women like worthless tissues and threw them away whenever it suited him. I love and respect you. It's not your fault for what he did. Joseph Smith was a bad man
@@truth.speaker God's "motive" for only allowing certain men to practice polygamy instead of everyone, is so that women were not abused and taken advantage of by unrighteousness men. There is zero evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual conduct with any of the other women. If he was such an adulterous man where are all the illegitimate children? If it isn't love it isn't God commanding it? Really? Ok. Old Testament style: 1 Samuel 15 - basically, "Go and kill all those people (man, woman, child and beast) living in that city". Emma's whole reaction to polygamy makes her account rather biased. She claimed in her deathbed that Joseph never had any other wives despite evidence to the contrary and her own previous comments. At various times she said it was a commandment from God given to Joseph at other times she denied any knowledge of it. It was obviously not a commandment she liked or wanted her husband to obey. I believe Emma's account for a lot of things but polygamy is not one of them. She clearly had a dislike for the commandment and her changing opinion on it does not make her the most reliable source. Using the quote from Oliver Cowdery on polygamy is a super lazy ex-mo thing to do. He clearly had know knowledge of what was going on, only that Joseph had married another woman. That was the extent of his knowledge. The quote is just his personal feelings about polygamy with no knowledge of what was actually going on. Joseph Smith was a bad man? A bad man who wrote a book about Jesus Christ that has convinced millions to follow Christ and try to be like him? A man who received over a hundred recorded revelations from God? A man who inspired tens of thousands to travel to the USA and trek miles across the country because they read a book he wrote that made them "feel good"? A man who taught others to follow Christ? Yes he seems very bad. And all of this anger towards him because some people with unsubstantiated stories told some convincing lies about him? Yes sure let's throw everything else out he did and focus purely on some lies and rumours people spread about him. Top quality stuff 👌
@@Samuel-et7bd Samuel, to claim that Joseph 'brought people to Christ' is the same claim made by those who practice priestcraft. We can't pretend that everyone who claims to encourage discipleship is working for God, can we? Many false teachers have sheep's clothing, but inside they are ravenous wolves (Matthew 7) I mean no offense by saying this, but Samuel, you do not understand this subject. Please continue researching. You need to understand. For example, in the gospel topics essay the church writes "Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings." If you think he wasn't banging at least some of them, you need to read what the church has clearly said. He had sex with multiple women behind Emma's back. This is just truth. He lied to Emma. This is a fact. He claimed it was cool because God told him to (just like many other false prophets claim), but check the dates. Was Fanny Alger BEFORE he had "authority" to do this? Research, my friend. Research. Find truth. You will see that Joseph was marrying women, commanding letters to be burned and covering up with lies and deceit. Isn't it odd that Jesus warned us against false prophets and their bad fruits, only for the one true prophet to end up doing exactly the things Jesus warned us about? Strange, eh?
@@Samuel-et7bd "to remove the Lord's name from the lord's church is a great victory for Satan" True or false? Does that sentence not remove "the Lord's name" and replace it with the word "Lord"? Funny how even today's "prophet", condemns the church's 150 year old practice, claiming Mormons were secretly giving victories to Satan for decades, yet ends up doing exactly that same thing in the very sentence he "revealed" it in (by calling Jesus by a different title, instead of his name). Clearly this is a "blind guide", Samuel. How truly sad. I'm not blaming you. But clearly your prophet is condemning himself, the church members, the past prophets, and ironically, in so doing, he condemned himself. How very, very blind
It's a mystery to me that society, in general, embraces fornication with multiple, shared partners, singularly and plurally, yet abhors the idea of having legal, loving polygamic relationships.
Joseph was practicing polygamy before the sealing authority was given. LDS historian, Richard Bushman, said “There is evidence that Joseph was a polygamist by 1835” (Rough Stone Rolling, p.323). Plural marriages are rooted in the notion of “sealing” for both time and eternity. The “sealing” power was not restored until April 3, 1836 when Elijah appeared to Joseph in the Kirtland Temple and conferred the sealing keys upon him. So, Joseph’s marriage to Fanny Alger in 1833 was illegal under both the laws of the land and under any theory of divine authority; it was adultery.
Yes, but polygamy is not an issue of sealing. It is an issue of marriage. Just look at the Bible. There is zero mention of polygamy in relation to sealing. No. any polygamous marriages done prior to 1836 was not illegal under the laws of God, because God never revoked His laws allowing polygamy. Polygamy was revoked by corrupt Christian and Jewish leaders in the early centuries AD. Therefore the Christian standards against polygamy were invalid.
Michael Ellis yet LDS will say marriage is between a man and a woman which is why God created Adam and Eve. But yes JS was just sitting there having tea and coffee I mean milk and cookies with his many wives. 😉
@@MichaelEllisYT .....let's talk about God's standard against sin. Rather than the Christian standard against polygamy. After all....Christians didn't set the standard.....
And what are you, or historians, basing Joseph being married to Fanny on? A letter written by Oliver Cowdery who was at odds with Joseph at the time and who was just repeating rumor? Or are you basing it off of the 1872 letter Williaim McLellin wrote to Joseph's oldest son, relating the barn incident, in an attempt to convince him that his father practiced polygamy?
NoStoppingit7 the fact that the church says he practiced polygamy. So the church is lying? The sealing records proved he was sealed to other wives. If the church accepts it and you don’t then you’re going against the true church.
I am also curious about the Church's position in recent decades. I know now ex-mormons who were excommunicated for bringing up the topic of polygamy decades ago. They simply wanted answers. How was this type of suppression of history of God?
I don't think polygamy in general has been suppressed. I've known about it since I was a child. That said, a lot of people thought it began with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. Was Joseph Smith's polygamy suppressed? I don't know. Could have been. Joseph himself tried to keep it a secret (when it got out in the open he was killed, in part, for it). So I wouldn't be surprised if others did as well. Also, there's just a lot we simply haven't known in the past, and still a ton we don't know now. It's not a very well documented thing. But I do agree to an extent, I think the polygamy issue could have been handled better in past decades. But I understand why it hasn't gotten much lime-light. It's not something anyone really wants to touch. It's clear that people don't have to be perfect to be called of God. The next question, though, is how *imperfect* does a prophet need to be before God removes that sacred calling from them. In the case of the polygamous founding fathers of Christianity, we Christians only have a couple of options: God sanctioned their polygamy. In which case, it's a clear precedent and condemning Joseph Smith becomes more difficult. If God sanctioned it then, He can sanction it in the 1830s. Or God did not sanction their polygamy, in which case they seriously sinned. Yet, God still allowed them to be prophets (otherwise, Christianity would be founded upon fallen prophets, which I think we can agree was not the case). This would also set a precedent, though an even less-savory one, of prophets practicing polygamy. Either way, it's hard to saw Joseph couldn't be a prophet because he practiced polygamy. I'm not sure what happened to your ex-communicated friends. I'm sure there was more to each of their stories, but if mistakes were made in their excommunication, those people will answer for it. Have a great day!
I tend to be skeptical when I hear about people who were excommunicated "just for asking questions." To my knowledge, asking questions has never been punishable - but pointing out contradictions and claiming the church must be wrong because of X does suggest apostasy, especially if they are telling others that the church is lying about it. If they were humbly seeking the truth and trying to serve the Lord the best they could, I would have expected them to stay with the church and try to be rebaptized rather than quitting entirely. This is partly speculation on my part, and I'm sure there have been excommunications for improper reasons, but the frequently-repeated claim that "they simply wanted answers" doesn't hold for me.
I have a question. If any movies, music, books, tv shows, and other forms of media that have sex, violence, and language are considered inappropriate, a bad influence, and so on, then why do so many people keep ignoring the fact that the Bible is full of adultery, rape, genocide, and human sacrifices?
sylvia g Then what about the parts about God drowning the world in the whole Noah’s Ark thing, forcing Abraham to stab his own son to death, and even sending an angel of death to kill ever firstborn of Egypt(which could be any age from babies to children)?
There is no evidence that polygamy was anything more than a cultural practice in the Old Testament and in some cultures today. It was not commanded by God, except in Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible. Polyandry was especially forbidden in the Jewish culture. At 3:35 you say that there is no evidence that Joseph Smith was intimate with any of his polyandrous wives. Apparently you are not familiar with the claim of Sylvia Sessions Lyon that her daughter Josephine was fathered by Joseph Smith. This was a commonly accepted belief in the church for several decades until DNA testing proved that Windsor Lyon, Sylvia's legal husband, was the birth father. Why would Sylvia claim that Joseph Smith was Josephine's birth father if she was not having intimate relations with both men within the time period that she got pregnant? A number of the 'wives' of Joseph Smith testified in a court of law (Temple Lot case) that they had sex with Joseph Smith. Read Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness" for poignant biographies of each of the known 'wives' of Joseph Smith. For Joseph Smith to claim that he had been commanded by God and threatened by an angel with a flaming sword, is so manipulative that it defies description. The women he persuaded to "marry" him by participating in a fake wedding ceremony were no more married under the laws of the land than they were before the ceremony. But while they believed that that fake wedding ceremony, (which was illegal under the laws of bigamy in every state and territory where it was practiced), gave Joseph Smith conjugal rights, the women had NO LEGAL rights whatsoever. They had no claim to his name, his property, or his financial support. This was, in my opinion, emotional abuse, and I have lost whatever respect I ever had for Joseph Smith. How can men who consider themselves good men, continue to support such a man?
deskjockie49 you are dismissing the fact that prophets practiced it in the Old Testament, saying it was cultural, but had it been evil they would not have been prophets.
@@veronicajordan8282 nah its largely been believed by jews and mainstream christians that polygamy as it appears in the bible is not the ideal. biblical characters are not seen as perfect and sinless, in fact theyre often very flawed even if they are described as otherwise good. joseph smith and the mormon prophets on the other hand, act like theyre always right.
Jonah Antuna that’s not true, Joseph Smith and all the other prophets since, have never been taught to us as not having flaws, they were not perfect just as the the prophets of old were not perfect.
Gordon B. Hinckley about polygamy: "We have nothing to do with it. It is against the law. Members of the LDS-church practicing polygamy will be excommunicated". Is there anyone of the audience who is aware of a gap? I mean, do you notice that nothing, but nothing is said about virtue or ethics? Members of the church need very badly, what it is to live an exemplary lifestyle. Or is the image of Joseph Smith in jeopardy?
The image of Joseph is very much in jeopardy because he didn't just practice polygamy, claiming he wasn't involved for many years, but also polyandry... The taking of another man's wife.
One question I have is why God needed to coerce Joseph with an angel with a flaming sword. God could have sent that angel to put a stop to slavery or the holocaust. But no, according to Mormons the most pressing issue to god in all of history since the Resurrection of Christ was Joseph Smith not being married or "sealed" to 14 year old girls and other mens' wives.
Not exactly. Most versions did not have a sword at all, let alone flaming. Like most of Joseph's angelic visits it was likely a personal message. I think the interpretation that the angel was threatening violence is also suspect. Smith used the term 'destruction' quite often in his sermons, always meaning the spiritual consequences of sin. I think the story has been exaggerated over time. Early versions did not even mention any sword at all.
Your question really just boils down to why God doesn't stop evil things from happening. You mentioned two modern problems, but the same question could be asked about a lot of the dreadful things that happened to God's followers in the Bible that He allowed to happen. The fact is that God doesn't directly interfere with the vast majority of problems the world has. That's just a fact that you have to accept. I do have theories on why He doesn't do anything about them such as my suggestion that perhaps he wants us to deal with such problems on our own as a test, or how I suspect that He also uses these horrors to shape people become better through hardship, but the fact is that we'll never know in this life why God directly interferes with some rare matters but not with all the countless others.
Do a careful reading of D&C 132 that outlines plural marriage and you'll notice the words destroy and obey used many times and you never see words like love or cherish. It's true that Joseph's polygamy wasn't just about sex, it was also about power and control.
@@davidsnell2605 your video talks about all the things that people had to do back in the day to test their faith. You would fail that test. What about if the prophet asked you to sacrifice your child on an altar? Or removing the head of Trump because it is better that one man should perish than an entire nation should dwindle in unbelief? Would you take a second or third wife if they asked you to?
@@athenshuff8730 I would need a witness similar to the witness many of the early saints received concerning polygamy (some of their experiences are provided in the video) for me to do anything like that. We're always entitled to a personal witness. You make it sound as if people blindly and unquestioningly followed Joseph Smith, which, especially in the case of polygamy, was not the case, nor what was asked for or required. Multiple women simply turned Joseph down. Others said 'no' until they received a witness that what he was asking was ok with God. I try to follow the advice (ironically) of the prophet Brigham Young: "I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. ... Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not."
Hyrum said the lord never commanded polygamy so get that out of your heads. He never did once until Brigham pulled 132 doctored it up to fit it in with his “new order of things”!
I have one question for you. Why did the church coincidentally continue to practice polygamy until the federal government threatened to destroy the Mormon church?
Ralph Perez Ok I’m not a professional by any means but in the manifesto he says that the government had banned polygamy and he was letting the government know that the church was not permitting it. In fact apparently, the church hadn’t been permitting it to anyone. Polygamy was technically allowed up to then, but people were doing it without permission. Again, this history is complicated and I may not be 100% right but this is what I got from reading it. I hoped that this may have answered your question.
What do you mean it was allowed but people were doing it without permission? Do you mean the gov was allowing it or the church was allowing it. If the church was Why would they need permission if it was allowed?@@oliverash5892 please be more specific with your language
I may make a video on this topic. I haven't been able to get anyone to answer a question yet.. According to Jacob 2, David and Solomon had many wives and it was abominable to God. But in D&C 132, David did not sin and his wives were given by God. How can these contradictory statements be reconciled?
The Bible itself answers your question. Notice that Jacob 2 doesn't mention Abraham, Jacob, Moses or any of the other righteous Hebrews who practiced polygamy. It mentions only David and Solomon, who clearly sinned in taking women they couldn't as wives.
My father once told me, "you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand". Fact is God stated clearly in D&C132 verse 1 no less that both polygamy and concubines are instituted for the fullness of his glory. I am not going to attempt to explain my thoughts and feelings about this accept to say that I believe God is just, fair, and true and also justifies his Holy Prophets. In my experience when we do not understand something it's because we do not have all the information, as God told Joseph at the end of section 132 that God has much more to reveal to Joseph on this whole subject alluded to in verse #1 as well as what was commanded to be offered to Emma to teach a higher veiw but then immediately prohibited of God. I testify that God's ways are higher than ours and we would do well not to speak evil of his Prophets past or present.
Thank you for this video! By the way, Mary Hales was my 3rd Great Grandmother, so it was kind of cool to see a quote/picture from her included in this video!
So much respect for you trying to cover this. It’s about time the LDS church addressed this and the other extremely challenging topics you have covered. I really think you did the best you could do and my heart and prayer goes out to you. That being said, I still don’t understand how you believe that God, the perfect and just God of the Bible, would tempt Joseph Smith to sin. Or tempt nephi to kill Laban? James 1:13 says God can’t tempt anyone. You’re right there is polygamy in the Bible but there’s also murder and many other sins, that’s the thing though GOD STILL CALLS IT SIN. God never once in the Bible encourages polygamy He discourages it. Abraham was wrong to sleep with Hagar. David was wrong to sleep with Bathsheba. The Bible is very very clear about these being sins and moments where those men failed. If Joseph Smith was really a man of God he would have known what Jesus said in Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.” Or Matthew 19:9 or Romans 7:2-3 and stood on that in the face of being tempted by that “angel”. Let’s say an angel did tell him to do those things, he should have known satan can disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) and that he should have tested the spirit (1 John 4:1). A real test of Joseph’s smiths faith would have been him standing on the Word of God like Abraham did (trusting God’s promise to make him the father of nations (Hebrews 11)) and saying no weapon formed against me will prosper or to live is Christ to die is gain and let the demon strike him with the sword. I don’t see how any of you believe that this sexist racist man named Joseph Smith represented the Holy God. I think it is much more likely he was visited multiple times by satan in an attempt to deceive him and with him so so so many others. Can you see how that could be a possibility? If not, why? Why do you believe that angel was sent from God to tell Joseph to sin? Or do you disagree with Jesus that what Joseph did wasn’t sin? I’d really appreciate an honest response from someone. I’ve been meeting with missionaries for months now, my best friend is LDS. I want to understand but I can’t get past this at all.
You could get past it only if first you humble yourself to the possibility that maybe you have a few incorrect preconceived notions. Take a few steps back.
@@vendingdudes I love you, so I'll tell you straight … your response gives absolutely no refutation of Joseph's secret actions. With love, not hate, I'll tell you that the complete failure of the church to acknowledge the sins of its past hurts deeply
Read your Bible my friend, it's worse than you think. God does command people to break commandments without it being considered sin. Just like Nephi was commanded to kill Labin. Saul was commanded to wipe out a town killing women and children. This was one of the three things the Israelites were obliged to do when they came into the land of Canaan, as Kimchi observes; one was, to appoint a king (Saul) over them, another, to build the house of the sanctuary, and the third, to blot out the name and memory of Amalek 1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’” (God even commanded to kill little babies) Nowhere does God ever declare polygamy to be sinful or speak a negative word against it in the Bible. The Law assumed that polygamy would be a valid, moral expression of marriage in Israelite society along with monogamy as shown in Exodus 21:7-11, Deut 21:15-17, Deut 22:22-29, and Deut 25:5-10. The Levirate Law in Deuteronomy 25:5-10, which commands a brother to marry his deceased brother’s childless widow and have children in his brother’s name, makes no exception if the surviving brother is already married. Therefore this command would result in polygamous marriages if the surviving brother was already married, and in practice it often did. Furthermore, God figuratively describes himself as having a polygamous relationship with Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 3:6-11 and Ezekiel 23:1-12. Also, Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25:1-13 describes the coming Kingdom in terms of polygamy between a single bridegroom and ten virgins. The Bible is actually more disturbing then LDS History. In the Bible you can rape a virgin as long as you pay the father 50 shackles of silver but you are commanded marry the girl for the rest of your life. Now ask yourself this question why doesn't the God of the Bible care about the woman's feelings, because apparently she doesn't get to make her own discussion. Sorry you have to marry the guy that raped you. This is why the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth and a man would get closer to God by abiding to it's precepts then any other book. This doesn't mean the Book of Mormon has to be a historical manuscript, but it just needs to be a spiritual one. The truth of the Book of Mormon is that it brings a man to God by abiding by it's precepts. Jacob specifically mentioned unauthorized polygamy as an iniquitous practice. “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. . . . Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old” (Jacob 2:24, 26). Jacob therefore categorized such unauthorized instances of polygyny and concubinage (a man marrying multiple women), as sinful, for, he said, God “delight[s] in the chastity of women” (Jacob 2:28), and would not tolerate lascivious men abusing women (Jacob 2:32-33). What do you believe is the most correct? (1) Bible that allows polygamy (2) Book of Mormon doesn't allow polygamy
Well if Joseph was someone tempted by Satan, he couldn't possibly produce a book which he claimed was from God, dripping with vital and clear doctrines that actually helps people come closer to Christ. If you could read the Book of Mormon you will know what I am talking about.
The thing that is the most damning thing to me is the way Joseph Smith went about getting these women to marry him. He would essentially tell these women/teens that if they married him that they and their families would recieve eternal exaltation and if they didn't, they and their entire families would be damned. It's like putting a gun to someone's head and asking them to make a choice. Also, if you want some really good information, read the Emma Smith biography. It's not intended to be faith harming. But any basic study in psychology and you get a picture that Joseph Smith was a very likely a liar, charlatan, philanderer, and emotionally abusive to his wife Emma. He had some good qualities of course, as charlatans often do.
I highly doubt that Joseph said if someone didnt marry him her entire family would be damned. Just for future references just because someone says Joseph said something doesnt actually mean it was said. A lot of people say a lot of stupid things.
As an adult, Joseph Smith was convicted in a court of law for having sex with a 14-year old girl. The judge, having pity on him for being a normal young man, he let him go. And then there was the teen girl Joseph Smith brought into his household as a "maid"...until his wife caught him with her in the barn. Let us not overlook the adulterous affairs Joseph Smith had with other men's legally married wives. But these and countless other things concerning Joseph Smith are carefully, consistently, and thoroughly covered up by church leaders and members whose denial (intentional and unwitting) is synonymous their 'faith.' Joseph Smith was a felon. Bank fraud was only one of his great accomplishments. An attempt by disenchanted members of the church to reveal Joseph Smith's true character to the public (based on their first-hand experience) resulted in Joseph Smith ordered other members of the church to break into the building where the printing press was and destroy it -- yet another felony. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is predicated upon perpetuated falsehoods. The keystone "Joseph's Smith's First Vision" was carefully crafted, radically altered, calculated, and evolved as a process over time before finally emerging as a final version that was determined to be the most acceptable for public assimilation. The truth be known, if the church operated openly, honestly, and without all the secrecy and cover-ups, all the dishonesty surrounding Joseph Smith's dealing would be an easier matter of record, but now -- after generations of trying to save face, and after building a multi-$billion global empire, the church is fighting to survive the scrutiny. Even Joseph Smith's first legal wife, Emma, married him after they ran away together because Joseph Smith was a rather shiftless young man and was not able to get permission from Emma's father to marry her. The idea of taking what you want was fundamental to the life of Joseph Smith from his youth. But he was very clever -- and I would suggest that he was even something of a genius. He cobbled together what became (and under very suspicious circumstances) America's first and only original 'Christian' religion. If you hate Bernie Madoff for causing so much trouble in the world, for being so incredibly selfish, and for hurting so many people, but you respect that he was clever enough to pull it off -- until he got caught, then respect Joseph Smith. Members of the church are not told the truth. They get only the very biased one-sided propaganda from the church, and they tend to accept it rather blindly. Those who somehow come to a "fullness of the truth" end up leaving the church. It is the logical and the only reasonable outcome. The other members of the church -- especially hard-core indoctrinated members -- particularly those that have been in the raised church and whose families are multi-generational church families -- really don't know any better, and can't really be blamed for their lack of knowledge. Just as the global Genome Project discovered the falseness of the claim of Joseph Smith that the American Indians came from Israel by boat, so does truth eventually win out over myth, deceit, and fantasy with the rest of the Mormon church's claims. One of the best researchers (himself an ex-Mormon) that is an excellent resource on Josh Smith the Mormon church's 'history' is Grant Palmer. He has no ax to grind. He upholds the truth. He is a man of integrity. He calls it like it is. His story and some of his videos can be found on UA-cam. Not all church members are bad, but the church is false, and is predicated upon false claims. Some church members will never care whether or not the church is false. Pray for the other members of the Mormon church to find their way to the truth. For some it is a hard journey, but it is a journey with integrity.
@richardholme s7199 X members like to burn Down the building when they leave. They hate to think that anyone else should occupy that space. There is no known Xplanation of why.
Don’t forget that D&C 132 is still cannon and that it mentions plural marriage as a requirement for men to gain exaltation and to become gods. Not only that but if you don’t abide in plural marriage that you are damned.
yes, that is because current LDS leaders WILL practice polygamy when they die. Numerous leaders and many members have been married and sealed, had a spouse pass, and have become married and sealed a second time. When these couples all pass away they will be rejoined in a polygamous marriage in the afterlife, where they will (scripturally speaking) have physical relations to produce spirit children. This is LDS doctrine. Or as Kwaku would say "Its just a fact." :)
Michael, the chapter summary in section 132 defines celestial marriage as plural marriage. Verses 1-6 state that Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant. Verses 15-20 state that celestial marriage and the continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods. Verses 4-6 says that if you abide not in that covenant that Ye are damned saith the Lord God. As time has gone on celestial marriage has shifted from being plural marriage which was supposed to be a everlasting covenant to now being temple marriage. It don’t matter to me either way, but the text says what it says. The early prophets would also agree.
More on this here if anyone is interested. You are, of course, free to interpret D&C 132 as you deem appropriate. www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Requirement_for_exaltation#Question:_Does_D.26C_132_state_that_polygamy_is_required_for_our_exaltation.3F
There is nothing that says in the bible that you can't have sex with more than one women as long as you own them or are married to them. You only can't have sex with a women who belongs to someone else. I knew a guy in Orem ,Utah that had two wives. He belonged to a fundamentalist group. They all go down to mexico and get married then come bake to the states.
So…God told Joe to practice polygamy. He sent an Angel three times to tell him to do it. But Joe outsmarted God and only kinda/sorta married all of those women until…..later. If I wanted a religion to make me stretch this much I’d join the one that does yoga.
I dunno. There's a lot omitted here. Emma wasn't Joseph's first sealed wife, Emma didn't know, the marriages started before the sealing power was revealed, the legal affidavit of the wives and intimacy... All these things are really important, but they weren't mentioned in the video.
This is a fairly good video, though I think it probably could've addressed things a bit better than it did (I hardly blame you for that, it's a very complicated topic and most of the evidence we have about it at all is after the fact, at least as it related to Joseph Smith). I will do my best to elaborate on why Dave suggests that Joseph was originally trying to find a way to sort of get around the commandment in a way (and why this indicates that we was sincerely trying to spare Emma the distress that it would inevitably cause). The timeline goes something like this: 1. First angel visit commanding Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage. Not too long after this the first plural marriage is done and it's messy for everyone involved, not a pretty picture. - After this, a considerable amount of time goes by before Joseph dares go near the practice of polygamy. It's unclear when Joseph received his second visit from the angel, but the way I see it, it's most likely not long before Joseph is married to yet another woman 2. After that Joseph starts with the polyamorous marriages, marrying women who were already married to someone else. Anything before 2016 related to this topic is outdated. We thought that we had evidence that Joseph had a daughter with one of these married women, but genetic research indicates that Joseph and his supposed daughter, Josephine, are not related. So before 2016 the evidence pointed towards these polyamorous marriages being consummated, but now we have good reason to think that they weren't, as all any other potential candidates for Joseph's children conceived through these polyamorous marriages are ruled out except for maybe one of them, who died in infancy, and thus we aren't able to collect any genetic material from their descendants to see if they're related to Joseph. Given that all other candidates from these polyamorous marriages are duds, I think it's a safe assumption to say that they weren't consummated. Along with all of that, it was frequently the case that Joseph approached the husbands of these women to see if they would be okay with it. If you're some sex crazed charlatan trying to seduce women in the 1800's, the last thing you would want to do is go kindly ask the women's husband if they were okay with it. Back then, if you caught your wife committing adultery with a man, it was considered legal homicide to kill the man who was sleeping with your wife. In addition to that, there were a number of husbands that he approached who weren't even members of the church but were nonetheless friends of the church, and in one case one such husband actually asked Joseph to be sealed to his wife because he had no interest in things regarding the afterlife but wanted his wife to be able to be sealed to someone. All of these non-member husbands (to my knowledge) remained friends of the church for the rest of their lives. Also, as far as I'm aware, Emma had no issues with these marriages, because it seems that they were sealings for eternity only, and thus Joseph wasn't having sexual relations with them. This is why it's suggested that these marriages were Joseph's attempt to technically keep the commandment of God to practice polygamy but avoid having sex with them to spare Emma distress. 3. Then the third angel visit happened, and this is when it's said that the angel threatened Joseph with a sword, telling him to get with the program or suffer the consequences. This is when the polyamorous marriages mostly stopped with a few exceptions. In these marriages, at least some of them were consummated, and these are the ones that Emma found very painful to deal with, and she never seemed to fully reconcile herself with the doctrine of plural marriage (understandably so, I can hardly imagine how difficult it would've been). But tell me, does that sound a whole lot like Joseph is just in it for the sex? If you ask me, I would say no, but that's merely how I interpret the evidence. It is up to everyone to come to their own conclusion. It is understandable to have extreme discomfort regarding this topic. You'd have to be a fool to not see why mixing sex and religion like this is fairly alarming, and a good reason to be very careful in coming to an informed understanding. Now, there's a few other common themes that I've seen in the comments that I also think I could address: - No, Joseph did not force women into plural marriage. He did not tell them that if they didn't comply then he would be killed by an angel with a flaming sword. There were women who he approached about the subject who told him no, and they remained in the Church with no issue. In one case Joseph broached the topic with one woman, saying that he was going to tell her about plural marriage. She asked him to tell someone else. - No, plural marriage is not necessary for exaltation, and as far as I'm aware Joseph Smith never said it was. Wilford Woodruff said that he never heard Joseph teach such a thing. There's one quote from Brigham Young which, when taken out of context, certainly seems to be saying that plural marriage is necessary for exaltation. However, when you look at the text before and after that quote, it becomes clear that he's saying that an acceptance of plural marriage as doctrine is what is necessary, not personally practicing it oneself. Most members of the Church at the time didn't practice plural marriage. It was a minority of members, though obviously not an insignificant amount. The one exception to this is that a later prophet, Joseph F. Smith, did think that it was necessary for exaltation, but given that he's the only church authority who has claimed that I think we can safely go with what the majority of leaders have taught. - Plural marriage could in theory come back, but if you ask me I highly doubt it. It could technically be argued that in a way it is still in force, but only so far as if your spouse dies it is perfectly fine to marry and be sealed to someone else, and your sealing to your previous spouse is still intact. But plural marriage in the mortal stage of our progression is not permitted at present. In Jacob 2:30, (albeit not something that people who aren't Latter-Day Saints would accept as scripture, but a Biblical case could theoretically be made for it as well, though this comment is long enough so I shall forebear) makes it clear that while monogamous marriages are the norm, God can sanction polygamous marriages should it suit His purposes, but when it has not been sanctioned it is a direct violation of Gods commandments. That is the state we currently inhabit in regards to God's commands about plural marriage. Again, this is my interpretation of the evidence. It's perfectly possible for people to look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. It all depends on what assumptions you bring to the table. If you assume that Joseph isn't a true prophet then you would be inclined to think of him as a scumbag. I'm inclined to believe that he is a prophet, in my opinion evidenced by the Book of Mormon. And that's all just fine. Make of it what you will. If you have genuine concerns or questions about this topic, just know that there's no easy answers, and you'll have to look and search for quite a while, but you can find the answers if you look earnestly. If you do genuinely want to find answers, go ahead, commit to the search, and remember that our understanding of history changes as new evidence comes to light. You can search, and you don't have to be afraid of what you'll find if you do search. If you already have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and a personal relationship with God, if you've made covenants with Him, remember those things. You can be searching for answers and having concerns and still remain faithful to your covenants and relationship with God. Fear not, He'll guide you if you let Him and search with dedication and patience, of that I bear witness, in the Name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Thank you for this. I have been struggling with the subject of Polygamy for a long time. I didn't want it to affect my testimony. Your explanation helps me.
Please never allow it to shake your testimony of God Joseph did this in secret. The church covered his actions up until the internet exposed him almost 200 years later! I can see why that would shake your faith in Joseph Smith. Please don't give up on God. It's hard to blame just Joseph when the church covered it up too. He pressured his victims to get his desires met secretly behind Emma's back. He also married other married women This video doesn't fix these issues A man like him could never be used by God Jesus said we should keep searching. Please keep searching until you find the truth 🙂
@XYU It is generally prohibited except when commanded by God. Abraham had multiple wives and king David even had many wives and concubines. You make a mistake regarding the "different gospel." You need to go back and look at what the gospel really is, as spoken of in the Bible. This is the same gospel preached by Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well as the Book of Mormon. What you are confusing is that the Apostles preached that you must believe and have faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized by immersion, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost continue to repent when you make a mistake. They taught that all of this proves that you would follow and accept Christ, who is the ONLY means by which we can be saved and forgiven of our sings. Anybody who takes away or adds to this core doctrine, the gospel of Jesus Christ, you should be wary of. This is what is taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... MANY of the Christian churches have taken away from this doctrines, therefore they have corrupted the gospel of Christ... Christ will judge them, however, not me.
What are you talking about?! It was not commanded by God! Read Genesis 16 and find me the commandment. Genesis 17 tells Abraham he was wrong- the seed of promise was to come through Sarah, and his belief that she could not produce the seed *was the whole reason he contracted the union with Hagar.* You need to do some basic fact checking of these claims, dude.
Fact check events that happened thousands of years ago? It’s so simple! Point being, he had another wife. Polygamy doesn’t happen among the righteous unless God commands it. I reread those chapters. God does not say Abraham was wrong. God tells him “My covenant is with thee.” He also sends an angelic messenger to tell Hagar to go back to Sarai. Do you really think Abraham and Sarai hatched the scheme of a second wife on their own? Hagar was part of the plan, and part of the covenant.
@XYU First of all you don't understand what the word "gospel" entails, nor do you understand the scriptures that says "another gospel." Second, polygamy was condoned and even commanded by God in the old Testament. There are also many things that were taught by Christ and His apostles at the temples that were never written in the Bible. So obviously there is more that was taught that we don't have. Many of those things were restored to Joseph Smith as a fulfillment of the "restitution of all things" as quoted by Paul. The Book of Mormon supports the Bible incredibly well. There are many, many more people who are rejecting the Bible and Christ. The Book of Mormon was saved for our time to further convince the world of the Messiah. It teaches the same gospel as found in the Bible and complements it perfectly. Those who read it, along with the Bible will come closer to Christ. That is what we hope for all mankind... that they will come closer to the Savior. Isn't that something any "christian" would want?
Every Mormon man I ever met has the same scripted answer when asked about polygamy, “Well they practiced it in the Old Testament.” Um, ya… they practiced sacrificing lambs too, but we don’t do that anymore.
@@tcoladonato the Church doesn't practice living plural marriage any longer, as far as being sealed to one living woman and one or more deceased women - I imagine Heavenly Father will address that on the other side of the veil.
@@RyanMercer - I live in AZ, and AZ didn’t become a State until 2/14/1912, that’s late. The Federal Govt. told the Mormon settlers if they stopped practicing polygamy, they would bring them into statehood and give them rights and protection. Reluctantly, the Mormons agreed. But now you have the FLDS which believes they are the true church of Latter Day Saints. Being sealed to more than one woman is also an indication the LDS still believes in polygamy.
Wow! How have I missed these? Nice work! We all squirm over this subject, and you just laid it all out there for us, complete with little snippets to keep my ADHD brain engaged. Would that the Church itself could see how much better this is than to proclaim, "thus saith the Lord!" before scampering back to hide and pretend all is well in Zion.
God never ordained a polygamist relationship. He might have permitted it due to his everlasting mercy, but never should it be known that he ordered such thing. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve, and Sarah. He did this so we could have an example to follow. And yes, God did order the killing of Abrahams son, but he did not permit him to go through with it. We need to start reading God’s word and stop basing our faith off videos on UA-cam. That’s why God gave you a bible, to read it, and understand it through his Holy Spirit. A little bit of lie, mixed in with a whole lot of truth, makes it all a lie.
@@ourlifeinwashington4114 The point, "skippy", is that the Mormons who were practicing polygamy and polyandry in Missouri in the 1800s were "crazy zealots" who are the ones responsible for inspiring those who are practicing polygamy today.
The point is not the polygamy. The point is all the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) and the Fundamental Latter Day Saints of Utah not ( Mormon) are all headed to Missouri for the apocalypse. Your neighbors will be China. They have millions invested in Missouri.
Our stay in Salt Lake City amounted to only two days, and therefore we had no time to make the customary inquisition into the workings of polygamy and get up the usual statistics and deductions preparatory to calling the attention of the nation at large once more to the matter. I Was Touched I had the will to do it. With the gushing self-sufficiency of youth I was feverish to plunge in headlong and achieve a great reform here-until I saw the Mormon women. Then I was touched. My heart was wiser than my head. It warmed toward these poor, ungainly and pathetically “homely” creatures, and as I turned to hide the generous moisture in my eyes, I said, “No-the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure-and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence.” ~Mark Twain
Im inactive but I loved how you explain polygamy, very sincere, this issues were one of the reasons why I left the church, and everything you said was accurate, I hope that the church keeps getting better in being sincere and open about this topics so that is not as a taboo when we ask about this issues 👌, many members explain polygamy with explanations that are not backed up with the evidence, great job 🙌
I know women today , who worry about eternal polygamy and what their husbands might do after death while they’re temporally separated. Taking some as wives without their support (because their still on earth). How abhorrent!!! I know I don’t look at my husband the same way knowing i was roped into this $&@# show without my knowledge and consent.
God doesn't need polygamy to raise up seed he proved that with Adam and Eve, Noah, after devestating wars, in the early days of Christianity, etc. Never commanded or instituted polygamy and raised up seed just fine without it. Emma was Joseph's only wife so her only struggle with polygamy was to counter the false accusations.
Thank you so much for your videos. My daughter just recently told me that she does not believe in the church anymore because she came to find out of the plural marriages that Joseph Smith had, including with a 14 year old. You explained it so well! I hope I can show this video to her and she is willing to watch it.
@@jonbaker476 literally all just hear say or flat out lies. No physical evidence (in the form of illegitimate children) that Joseph Smith did that. The "young man" you are referring to had committed an unlawful sexual act. Seeing as he wasn't married (having a fiance as you have pointed out) the only other unlawful sexual act would be rape. You are literally defending a rapist. The castration was not an act condoned by Brigham as they tried to have Bishop Snow arrested but politicians in DC told them to drop the matter. Castrating rapist's is something that is still done in some countries to this day so... Which story makes more sense historically?
@@jonbaker476 I have read Helen Mar's journals and publications. Where did she say that? If you are going to make those kind of claims you need citations. My impression, along with many others including non-mormons is that her journal indicates the opposite of your assertions.
The BOM condemns polygamy. Any member of the LDS church, including a prophet, who practices it should be excommunicated. Jesus had the final say on this in Matthew chapter 19.
@@TonyFieldson shoots I thought that’s what we’re doing in the temple now days, that if a mans wife dies, he can get sealed to another woman therefore “more than one wife”, in other words polygamy..... for the after life I guess? Yeah I say we’re still practicing polygamy.
Even if you are right regarding polygamy, there's still the issue of Joseph Smith marrying several pairs of sisters, which was prohibited by the Old Testament where the plural marriages are referenced. Whatever one's view of polygamy is the historical evidence about Smith suggests that he was a vile, nasty bastard
@@kevinevans8892 I don’t agree with the church or polygamy, but sisters were definitely married in the Bible. Jacob married Leah and Rachel. Mother daughters might have been off limits though…
D&C was written after Joseph Smith was already practicing polygamy and upon his brother (Hyrum Smith) requested that Joseph receive a revelation that God commanded some LDS leaders to practice it. Hyrum S. Condemned the act until he learned that his brother Joseph was already engaged in the practice. BTW - Emma despised the institution of polygamy and had many “knock down, drag outs” with Joseph Smith over his involvement. Joseph Smith had over 30 wives before his death. Brigham Young had even more and took great pride in many of the young women he seduced into marriage as he grew older.
I don't think God desired polygamy at all. He may have permitted it for the same reason he permitted divorce as Jesus states: due to hardness of heart. It wasn't that way in the beginning and that is often when I go to when I want to know God's ideal will. This is one of the few big reasons I doubt I will become an LDS. I don't think God ever instructed anyone to become a polygamist.
That's Abraham and Jacob you're talking about, though - men every prophet, and even Jesus himself, respected as righteous patriarchs of the Israelite people. There's no evidence at all that God considered them "hard-hearted". Heck, he was willing to sacrifice his son - all God had to do was ask. Why wouldn't he obey if God said "just don't do the whole polygamy thing"? Your reasoning makes no sense.
@@Mr-Thou Respect doesn't mean they did everything right. I mean King David was respected as Israel's best king, but he was still an adulterer and murderer.
Funny that you should mention David. In 1 Kings 15:5, it is pointed out that his only mistake was the one adultery and the one murder. Therefore, his plural marriage was approved, not just allowed. You're certainly allowed to hold your position on polygamy, but you've got to concede that there is nowhere at all in the Bible that states or implies polygamy was just "tolerared". All throughout the Old Testament, it is treated just like any other aspect of the life of Israelites.
@@Mr-Thou And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? Matthew 19:4-7 KJV doesn't say 3 or more. It says twain, or two in modern parlance
@@edenicchristian335 All marriage, including plural marriage, is obviously ALWAYS between two people. Except modern polyamorous relationships, of course.
I don't think I agree that polygamy is unfair to women if women are volunteers for it (unlike what happens in FLDS). I was listening to a really interesting podcast that predicted it's return in the near future with the astronomical rise in competent women over less and less competent/educated men. With boys being degraded in the "name of feminism", we are seeing all women rise, but a polarization of men, with some being highly successful, and many more being unsuccessful. This is going to leave women with a choice between being the second or third partner of a man they respect, or the only partner of someone not good enough for them. I of course would prefer what I have (a monogamous relationship with a competent man) but if I was thrust back in the dating pool, I think I would prefer sharing a competent man over having some basement dweller to myself.
Practicing polygamy because you’re a king or someone of wealth is NOT the same as God approving polygamy... there’s a big difference here. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham, not God. Re-read Genesis. God never approved this behavior even though it’s seen in almost all cultures, that doesn’t make it God approved. It shows the “natural man” who is an enemy to God...naturally follows physical desires which leads to sin which leads to spiritual death. This is the pattern you see throughout all the scriptures...Why is a Bishop, Elder or Deacon to have ONLY ONE WIFE? This is Biblical scripture, see 1st Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 only one wife!!! Why would God tell Joseph Smith something different from what was taught in the New Testiment? ....I’m willing to “shelf it” isn’t a valid answer to something as doctrinal as polygamy. It’s required for the highest place in the celestial kingdom D & C 132. Are you willing to show the journal entries if the other girls married to Joseph Smith?..like Fanny Alger? The twins? the mother daughter?or the ones who suffered horrible anxiety and we’re probably damaged for life? Why would a man of God do this? Why would it be necessary or only a few years then all of the sudden, it’s taken away? Can you honestly answer these questions?
I don't know of anywhere in the bible that god encourages polygamy; let's call it plural marriage. I don't know anywhere in the bible where god condemns it either. God does condemn Adultery though. I 'm not sure god really cares how many wives you have. The versus you mention in 1st Timothy and Titus; do not condemn plural marriage ether. These versus simply are requirements for those who hold positions in the Church. Maybe Paul thought that Bishops, Elders, and Decans, should have only one wife because it would have been impossible for them to preform their duties. You have to remember that back then it was common for families to follow the Patriarch when he traveled. This is still common today. They are called camp followers.
@@kennance115 "The versus you mention in 1st Timothy and Titus; do not condemn plural marriage ether. These versus simply are requirements for those who hold positions in the Church." ...OK, so, I agree with your comments for the most part. But, if the position of the LDS church is that they are organized like the same church from the day Jesus organized it, why then would there be a need for a church leader to have more than one wife?
…yes, exactly, I agree! It’s braking the first commandment, putting our sexual desires as our god. If we put God first or have no other gods before us other than Yahweh, then our sexual desire should not be primary.
People always believe that their imaginary friend (god) is telling them to do something, but it's really just a convenient justification for what people already want to do themselves.
That is a shallow understanding of faith. Do you think I don't want to have sex with my girlfriends? Do you think I don't want to flick the guy off that cut me off in traffic? Do you think I don't want to lie when I'm about to be busted for something? Living a life of faith is not an easy thing to do and many people fail because of what they "want to do themselves."
@@blusheep2 Do you do anything you need to be "busted" for? Sex before marriage is NOT a sin. A lot of what you would consider sin is what I consider to be doing wrong to others. I think it's wrong to hurt others, because I care about other people and don't want anyone to suffer, not because I'm afraid of "god" punishing me for committing a "sin". Its my caring and empathy, not my fear of imaginary deities, that keeps me from doing wrong things.
@@8698gil At points in my life I have. You can define sin however you want but that appears to conform to "what people already want to do themselves" better then how my worldview interacts with my behavior. I am not afraid of God punishing me either. We have that in common. The difference is that when you find yourself wanting something more then the power of your empathy towards others you are much more likely to give into your desire then your treatment of another. But in the end, if you do good things then great. If your compassionate great. Do you feel better about yourself because of it?
I've watched most of your videos, and I think this is my favorite!!!! I love that you're not dodging the heavy topics. While I can't agree with some of the assertions (for example, there's no way that diary accounts of Joseph's "celestializing" with new brides under the cover of darkness don't refer to sex), I 100% agree that Mormon polygamy is complex, fascinating, and deserving of a deep dive! My interest first began with the "Year of Polygamy" podcast that gives a biographical history of each wife. Can't wait to hear your take!
Scheherazade That is something that couldn’t be confirmed. To my knowledge no one wrote about him showing off his diary. We could only assume he didn’t show of his diary, as many people keep it private. However, his and many other diaries were found and kept around for people to read today. Not sure what point you’re trying to make.
Part of the problem is that the church still believes in the practice today. They don’t practice it because it became outlawed in the US. The other part of the problem is that Joseph Smiths teaching about Polygamy ran directly against what Jesus Christ taught (One man and one woman becoming one flesh) Not one man and several women for time and/or all eternity.
Ann believes the world should be atheist because religious history is abhorrent. Her comment is snide. It's an overarching swipe at anyone who believes in God, or she's a hippocrate.
@@ClayCB Why don't you address the comment to her? BTW, it's a public comment form. Anyway can say what they want. I'm sure ppl don't like your comments either.
“Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.” Jacob 2:24. “David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.” Doctrine and Covenants 132:38. Gee, God sure loves changing his mind, huh?🤔
Hmm... you've conveniently left out the caveat a few verses later in Jacob 2:30, "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." More on the alleged contradiction here: bit.ly/2QZhU6l
@@thomaschoate976 Right. No disagreement there. I think this was something Joseph battled with greatly, seeing as how there is evidence of intimacy with many wives (not all of them), but no children from any of them. Avoiding intimacy, in my opinion, was one motivation behind his marriages to women that were already married and continued to live with their husbands. I covered that in the video, if I recall correctly.
Oh my heck. It's ridiculous to build the theological polygamy argument stating that Old Testament prophets are "major figures of Christianity" and that they did it God must have intended the practice to be restored. Have we not read the Old Testament lately? Thank heavens we do not live by the archaic practices documented in that book.
I served in my ward with an elder missionary who took a particular interest in Islam. They would always visit a Muslim priest who owned a small fast food restaurant in the area close to where the ward was located . He even accepted an English version of the Qur'an from the Muslim priest and read it on his mission. I guess he was having a crisis of faith since it was rumoured the old Joe Smith compared himself to prophet Muhammad and even borrowed some ideas from him including the color of the temple garments I.e green and white and of course polygamy which Muhammad claimed was a commandment from Allah.
I will not judge Abraham who was willing to sacrifice Isaac. I will not judge Jacob who The Lord called Israel that knew the value of a birthright from The Lord. Who The Lord made prosper when serving Laban. Who was obedient to The Lord in all his days. Nor will I judge Moses. A man who had a life of prosperity and a family before leaving Egypt and turning to The Lord. A man who The Lord described as "the meakest of men" and who served The Lord wandering in the wilderness for 40 years when a life of ease was his to lose. A man who suffered public persecution and harassment again and again. Why? For The Lord. Nor will I judge the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. All these men were polygamists. Yet I see no scripture from God calling anyone of these men to repentance for this action. Was Joseph perfect in following this commandment? I tell you he was not. Did he do it for lust? I tell you he did not. Did he do his best and put forth honest effort to obey all His God commanded him? I tell you he did! That is the only reason he had more than one wife. That is my testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr.
Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy, nor endorse it. In fact, the only records of his mentioning it that were released during his life all speak against it. The records that show he was pro-polygamy were all released after his death, and the ones from his personal journal, were clearly edited by someone with different handwriting, which can be seen on the Joseph Smith Papers website. The hard fact to swallow for many people is that Brigham Young was the mastermind behind polygamy. There is much evidence for this. And of the supposed wives, all of them made their claims after Joseph had died, and they were offered financial security in Utah for their testimonies. Meanwhile Emma Smith always said JS had no other wives, and JS said he had no other wives many times. He and Emma had nine kids together. Surely he would have had kids with other women if he had married them, especially with the high number of claimed wives. Yet there is no other offspring of Joseph Smith besides the children of Emma. He and his brother Hyrum spoke against it often, as did other church leaders such as Sydney Rigdon. Go read Brigham Youngs claims that Joseph taught it again, they always say that it was in a "secret meeting" and that nobody should know. There is so much evidence that it is hard to believe that the majority LDS members still believe JS was a polygamist. All it takes is a little research. So for the LDS members, trust me I know it's hard to change a belief that has been engrained in you since childhood, but the truth is there- remember even the disciples had to be taught truth contrary to what they believed. To the anti-Mormons, sorry but the argument that Joseph Smith is a false prophet because of polygamy does not stand. I've read the Book of Mormon and it clearly teaches that polygamy is a sin, and JS did not practice it. The three volumes of "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" are good places to start for reading. But if you are not much of a reader, I will direct you to a video made by an LDS member. God bless everyone and your search for truth. ua-cam.com/video/F5heXE5xS5w/v-deo.html
Thank you for your post. Sad that there are so many people, especially church members, willing to spread lies without ever having taken the time to research or fact check. Thankfully over the last 5 years I have come across more and more people who have taken the time to do so and discovered the truth. In the end truth will prevail.
@@nostoppingit7827 Amen brother/sister. It is difficult to change your beliefs on something that you have grown up believing. I myself had the luxury of growing up outside of the LDS and was shown the how the lies were fabricated several years ago (although it did hold me back from other truths that the LDS believes which I have only recently discovered to be true). But I agree, more and more LDS members are realizing that there are several claims of early Utah Mormon leaders that don't line up with each other, or the things that Joseph taught, and praise God for that. I pray that His truth continues to go forth to all who will hear, and that we may be willing to listen and drop any false traditions that do not align.
Alright, but isn't the idea that Brigham Young, the man BYU is named for, could be a false prophet and a liar also potentially damning the LDS? Or do you propose to follow Joseph only, and not the prophets that followed?
Polygamy was allowed by God in the days of the ancient Hebrews (possibly to increase their numbers), but during the implementation of Christianity, the elders were commanded to have only one wife. Christianity usurped Judaism as now the newly approved religion
About an Angel threatining him with sword, the bible says : 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1.8.
Once you've been witnessed to of truth. All you hear is Isaiah 55:8-11 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. This used to bug me and I couldn't get a grip on it. It's funny how this doesn't bother me anymore. Once the Holy Ghost witnessed to me of the truth of The Book of Mormon, this doesn't even phase me anymore.
"Polygamy is gross and we totally don't do that anymore." That is the WORST defense of Polygamy ever. Joseph Smith was a polygamist and a "prophet", same with Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith and Heber Grant. Whew. That is a long list of "prophets" doing this totally gross thing that we totally don't do anymore. Heber Grant died in 1945! Mormons like to make Polygamy sound like it was practiced in their distant past, when Society was COMPLETELY different to the Modern Day, and yet, their prophet was a polygamist all the way up to the end of the Second World War.
My dad pointed out that if Joseph Smith was really just trying to sleep around, it would've been a lot simpler to just go to brothels rather than start a whole religion, especially since it actively got him persecuted. That's generally what creepy men do when they're addicted to such things.
I tell talk about self scarifice...that joesph really was a holh man, he didnt want to sleep w all these women, no it was horrible, but he did it for God? This is self delusion at its best, joseph was a liar and a con man. Look Jesus came, he paid the price for all our sins. God has provided us a revelation of who He is and what He wants. Faith in Christ saves us. He is more than able to preserve His Word for us and He has. WAKE UP
Just so everyone is aware, we will have a 45-minute video about polygamy coming out next week. 10 minutes was not enough time to discuss this topic. So be on the lookout for that coming out next week!👍
You explained this difficult topic perfectly. 10 minutes was plenty though--45 minutes would be like torture.
Saints Unscripted so excited !
Was there ever a release of the 45 minute video? I would be genuinely more curious as to how the Church of LDS dealt with the Apostasy in their own religion post-1890 than justification for the head prophet.
ua-cam.com/video/eITMOB2pNYI/v-deo.html
@@larryhawkes1347 Good boy delivers... x'D
I’m not LDS but I really don’t know why they give you guys such a hard time about this. Every history of peoples worldwide has unsavory history.
Generally attacks on polygamy are just attacks on low hanging fruit. There are many more substantial issues with Mormonism that demand our attention then polygamy.
That being said, the issue isn't so much about polygamy but rather the character of the early church and its claims to be led by a prophet of high character.
1)Polygamy was initially required by J.Smith in order to make it into the celestial kingdom... i.e. to become gods.
2)Later the church just upped and ended the practice and now you can even be excommunicated for it. Just like it changed it doctrine on numerous issues such as the trinity and blacks.
3)J.Smith chose to engage in polygamy without the knowledge of his wife. He had been married to something like 20 woman before Emma found out. After being caught he "revealed" the "Sarah rule" which means that the first wife can choose to say no to another marriage.
4)Out of the 30-40 wives that J.Smith had, about 12 of them were already married to other men which means he was practicing polygamy here but polyandry.
5)J.Smith sent out missionaries to foreign countries who looked for vulnerable young poor girls and brought them back to the states where they would be divvied up amongst the men of the presidency.
6)J.Smith outright lied about his polygamy until he was outed.
The issue of polygamy therefore, is more then just a renewal of ancient practices, but something that goes as deep as possible sex trafficking.
It’s because he claimed to be a prophet and polygamy is anti everything Jesus preached.
@@Ma1q444 Actually Jesus never preached against polygamy
There is plenty in the Bible to support the principle?
@@Ma1q444
Read the Bible
Why did he marry a mother and her Daughter if it was only to link families? Why did he Marry two women after he sent there husbands on missions? Why did he threaten a 14 year old with damnation of her family.
Because he was a sexually immoral religious impostor..
Because he was a disgusting pos
The answer to the question is YES!!!
The man was a creep and a paedophile.
JS had a full harem of about 36-40 wives if not more, many of whom where under age, seven to be exact.
He also fathered children with some of them.
God sent an angel and threaten him with a flaming sword if he didn’t marry a fourteen year old ? Seriously?
@@paulgregersen3570 can you please post the link? I, too, heard this story without explanation and I've been a church member two years. Thank you.
@@iowaguy6470 If you study Jacobs two polygamists wives Lea and Rachiel you will see a direct type replicated for Joseph Smith. I'll send you links a little later. The entire house of Israel was born through polygamy. Even Jesus Christ himself came through a polygamist family and was called the son of David. Christian's avoid that biblical fact like the plague.
I've been a member of the church for decades, and some of this information about Joseph Smith is completely new to me. My experience in the church is to have patience and wait on answers. So glad that other things didn't floor me so badly that I gave up on the church. Now I ask God for understanding and let the Holy Spirit teach me.
I agree with XYU. It is most important that we listen to and follow the Holy Spirit first. We are also asked to search out answers in the scriptures as well. You will find that no other church teaches the fulness of the gospel and God's plan of salvation more accurately and fully than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. No other church fits the description of Christ's church as recorded in the Bible more closely either.
Yes, Joseph Smith made mistakes, though not as grievous mistakes as anit-mormons poor research would suggest. The fact that he was immature and made mistakes and yet the church still grew is very strong evidence that God was in control, not Joseph Smith. But the evidence does show that Joseph Smith definitely grew into his role as the prophet of the restoration.
If you think about king David, in the bible. He committed adultery, then murder as a prophet. He fell from his status as prophet. Does that mean the church fell apart? no. Joseph was never guilty of such immorality or depravity and it was never his church, it is Christ's and He built it.
Just remember, the work is God's, not the prophets. Prophets are called because they are a tool in the Lord's hands. This doesn't change who they are, their biases, their human nature. But if they allow the Lord to work through them and seek to be like Christ, like any person, they will gradually become less of a "natural man" and will grow from "grace to grace."
That was a beautiful and majestical answer, i always appreciate the sincere words of faith from a humble disciple of God and his curch.
@XYU what do you believe?
@XYU Cool, was it like an ah ha! Moment, this feels right?
@XYU I like your approach, I what taught to study things out and it should make sense in my mind and heart. Prayer helps me too. Many LDS issues I've had to pray about, also about the Bible for things like Noah's Ark...that's my recent deliema and I actually am getting my answer from an LDS source. Before I searched I believed the author of Genesis was telling the story from what he knew the world was so when he said the entire earth he ment only what he knew of. So from the LDS site they mention the hebrew word used for earth is "eretz" which means earth or land. So I believe more in a flooding of a certain land and not the globe. There's just too much evidence that the entire world was not flooded.
“: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none.” -Jacob 2:27
Keep reading, Jacob explains that polygamy is allowed in certain circumstances.
Remember the rest of the quote v30. Only if commanded by the Lord.
Plss read Verse 30 . Why do Abraham , Jacob have multiple wives? again verse 30 might help
@@joscelynpease6656but why was Solomon punished for practicing polygamy. 1 Kings in the bible. God gave Solomon's kingdom to his servant.
Practice polygamy before the New Testament, you mean. New Testament states clearly that an elder is to be the husband of ONE wife. Be brave and be fair to divide the facts correctly.
But isn't it interesting that polygamy was so common that Peter gives such advice. Also, women shouldn't speak in church.
That is one of the best short videos I have ever listen to on this topic.
Jesus called it adultery. Period.
Where did Jesus say this?
Manggin Misao I never claimed he did. You on the other hand made a claim and are deflecting from the argument at hand. So again, when did Jesus say that polygamy was adultery?
Manggin Misao Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Once again, please furnish some evidence to show that Jesus opposed polygamy and called it adultery
@Manggin Misao I love how complex you've made jesus' position. Like, you started with "polygamy is adultery" then went and suggested that we claim something about two fleshes, and now you're saying Christ made specific exceptions.
I'm about to end your whole career, so sit down.
If a man and a wife become one flesh, how many fleshes are there? If that one flesh and another woman become one flesh, how many fleshes are there?
It's amazing to me how quickly evangelicals rush to insist that hellenistic ideas like sexual repression and strict monogamy are somehow Jesus breathed.
I'll gladly discuss any verse you come up with, so feel free to bring them up. And in case you missed it, the conjunction in your matthew quote is "and" not or, and the discussion is about divorce, do no, it doesn't have any reference to polygyny, for or against.
@Manggin Misao lolz, couldn't rebut so went for calling me "slow".
I thought you'd at least try, that's why I gave you such a long time before replying. That and having a life.
Anyhoo. I would recommend that if you're going to call someone stupid, you should be sure that your reply matches or exceeds theirs, lest people consider how much more foolish you must be.
Let me correct my typo. Where it says "do no," it's should say "so no,"
Have a wonderful day you sweet child of God, you.
Boy howdy I can't wait for the comments section on this one.
*grabs extra large tub of popcorn*
Same! The truth shall be revealed, friend. Turn from the false visitation (Galatians 1: 8) and Joseph, and find true grace in Christ. I enjoyed this video (as I do most), but it is sufficiently lacking in LDS scholarship.
I'll thrown in some red vines with that popcorn!
STEPHEN SMOOT!
Man's endless attempt to condone....or even justify sin.
Enjoy your popcorn
Ryan Adams Sin is an act against the will of God. This was not sin
I love that you guys are doing a lot of Book of Mormon and Jospeh smith videos :) such a taboo subject and I love your bravery, courage, and fearlessness of tackling such subjects :) keep up the good work :):) we pray for people like you guys out there !
It’s brave and fearless to talk about the founder of your religion? :/ That’s not a good sign.
@XYU You mean poorly researched topics based on their biases. I have read a lot of those, and yet when you refute with other evidence they just claim you are false. Their research would fail under real scrutiny, as it has many a times.
@@monocuco818 you are misguided
@XYU There are also many things in the Book of Mormon that people cannot explain, some of these passages actually match the Bible and other ancient texts that Joseph did not have access to.
You would have to look at each individual "error" to figure out what may have happened.
Like the one in 2 Nephi 19:1, where it contains 3 words that are not found in the original passage in Isaiah 9:1 and are found in both the KJV as well as the "translation" of the Book of Mormon. The 3 words are italicized so we know which words are filled in in the KJV.
It is not unreasonable for Joseph Smith to translate it, realize it doesn't make sense because it seems to be missing 3 words and compare them to the KJV that he had and fill in those 3 words, or fill in the same words because it makes more sense.
Either way it doesn't change the meaning of the scripture.
Furthermore, after reading the passages that he had just written, he would have read the Bible to compare and may have found the KJV to be clearer and added the italicized words in to the Book of Mormon.
Either way, they still can't figure out how Joseph Smith got the record so accurate.
You know they just discovered massive cities in South America complete with roadways, where millions of native americans would have lived. Exactly like the Book of Mormon describes.
Everyone said that this was another evidence that the Book of Mormon was false, but now they have found these cities as described in the Book of Mormon.
@@beckymcdonald9529 You don't know. The teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is more clear and more Christlike than any other in the world. It is more full, it is more complete and has even more knowledge of our God and our Savior and His Atonement.
Interesting video! A couple questions:
1) Why is section 132 still in the D&C? Could it be because there are a few current church officials have had wives that have died and remarried? Will they not have multiple wives (practicing polygamy) when they pass into the next life, and making spiritual children for eternity?
2) Why would God command polygamy as essential for obtaining godhood then change his mind? That is quite a 180-of course, occurring as a revelation from God directly when the LDS were under legal threat from the US government.
Lastly, it is important to note that polygamy was never permitted in the Old Testament. This practice was a perversion from the start due to the sinful heart of man. God instructed Moses that the kings of Israel were to have only one wife: “Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away.” (Deut. 17:17)
You don't search your scriptures properly. I know God the Father can invoke or revoke any Commandment at any time according to his will and pleasure because God makes all the laws and he can say and do whatever he pleases so thats why we are getting changes all the time in the church because its lead by revelation from God through prophets and apostles or the oracles of God. . The reason why we have multiple sealings in the temple is because of the many marriages people take to themselves here in this lifetime after a spouse dies and they remarry again and have children from those marriages during their lifetime, some people may have up to 3-4 or more of these marriages. So that's why we have more than 1 marriage sealing to a wife to these families.
@@germanslice and so currently members of the LDS church CAN and WILL practice polygamy in the afterlife. That is doctrine. Do you disagree?
You are wasting your time arguing with the early church of over 150 years ago.
We are in 2019 now, not in the 1840's.
its allowed when God Commands it. He ordered Abraham to take wives and the same with King David, but the Lord made it clear when King Solomon and King David after taking the concubines God Commanded to take they also went later on and took other additional wives to them that God did NOT COMMAND them to take then that's when they had sinned against God.
Just like also in the book of Ezra and possibly Nemeniah when the people of Israel took strange wives to themselves without the Lord's commanding them to take them they commited sin before God in doing so because they took wives of the Caanites, Egyptians, Hitties, Perizzites, Jebusits, Ammonites, Moabites and the Amorites took all their daughters unto themselves without getting the Lord's Consent, but all the wives that the Lord DID COMMAND David to take to Concubines from his masters house was allowed from God. Its only counted for righteousness to take concubines only when God commands it..
Where things started going all wrong for David is when he killed Uriah the Hittie and took Bathsehba unlawfully to wife against the Lord's Commandment.
You can find this rebuke very clearly from the Lord's own Prophet Nathan:
8. I gave thee thy masters house, thy masters wives into thy bossom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah, and if that had not been too little. i would moreover have given thee such and such things. (2 samuel 12:8)
GOD SPEAKING TO DAVID THROUGH HIS PROPHET
So polygamy was a practiced approved of by God in ancient times for furthering his own righteous purposes. God can do what he likes when the righteous do whatever he Commands..
Otherwise how do you explain why God told Abraham to say to Pharoah saying that she was her sister instead of saying she was his wife? Pharoah wasn't keeping God's laws so god can deal with Pharoah however he likes... God can revoke or invoke his Commandments to further suit his own righteous purposes. So in the case of the polygamy in the early church, it was granted by God under special circumstances before the commandment was revoked in the manifesto to no longer practice it before the world. And if God has moved it instead into the temple where sacred things are to be kept then that is not the world''s business but God's. So I'm not worried about how the sealing of families is going to be handled by God.
@@germanslice yes, and your argumentation is predicated upon God truly speaking to Joseph. Here in lies the problem. Did Christ not already come and declare the purpose and meaning of marriage? Marriage is a beautiful reflection of Christ and the church. One man and one woman, for life. How could 'god' then come and alter the very words spoken by the Messiah?
Because you don't search the scriptures properly and have come to incomplete conclusions.
God the Father along with his Son did speak to Joseph in that grove. But Its not just only Joseph who has seen them both. Stephen also saw them both standing side by side as well when the heavens opened up to him and he saw them both. I'm not interested in your perfect ideals on marriage, that's the world's understanding on marriage for life only, but God's understanding is marriage for time and eternity for what God doeth it shall be forever, not just for life only, so are you more righteous than God by telling the saints what to do on marriage?, Why do you try to counsel the Saints as if you were God himself? Nobody appointed you as Lord and God to tell the Saints what to do in the church. You are 150 years out of date with the church....
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As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints I appreciate this simple, honest video. I hope it is appreciated by all who watch it, both members and non members alike. 😊
Man, Saints Unscripted you always answer my questions I have about the Church so well good job!
I like your name. Cool Pokémon.
Have you read the Navoo Expositor?
He didn’t mention the lies and the deceit, though.
@@bradensorensen966 they still believe that Jesus is our Savior, I don’t follow the LDS leaders and we should love our neighbor even if we don’t agree on everything if your a man/women of Christ. I’m Catholic though not LDS, just find the different dominations of Christianity interesting
Thanks for the video, I just have a quick question. If God had commanded Abraham and others you mentioned to practice polygamy, where does it say that? I'm seeing that they practiced it, but it had negative effects on their lives, plus there's nothing saying that God had commanded them to practice it, so where are you finding the conclusion that sometimes God allows it and sometimes He doesn't? Thanks!
For heaven sake; If God says you can't do something then you shouldn't do it. If God does not say you can't do something then you can do it if you want to and those who you do it with don't mind. I don't think god would send an angel with a sword to make you do something. I hope Joseph Smith didn't actually say this. If he did I just wouldn't trust him.
When is God recorded saying I can’t do heroin? 🤡
Also, God says in Jacob chapter 2 in the CLEAREST TERMS that polygamy is a sin
David did not claim God commanded the practice. He carefully used the words "allowed" and "permitted"
@@Hala-ataaif you actually read the chapter you would’ve found this.
Jacob 2:27-30
27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
@@njlopezfa6514 haha, original. Tell the people who study the lost that they’ve “never read the chapter.”
These are the exact verses that prove polygamy is an abomination
Oriental Orthodox Christian here. You did really well with this video. I was most impressed about your own personal thought or belief on something and making sure to express that’s just you.
I can honestly say I learned more about the Mormon leader and polygamy in this short video then I would have otherwise sought. I am writing this before checking your cites and sources. Nonetheless keep up the good work bro.
-Eritrean-American 🙋🏾♂️
New subscriber and not LDS, but I have some friends who are - these are cool, clever and informative videos that will prevent me from asking my friends stupid, ignorant questions. I'm an American history nut and obviously Mormon history and westward expansion are quite intertwined. Thanks for the engaging content!
Yes history is history and it did happen… the difference is that GOD never commanded polygamy in the Bible. Never
Don’t use this as information. He’s a lying apologist. Which is what the Mormon church is all about
@@meganjarman5233true.
What a great ten-minute episode! I doubted you could do the subject justice in so little time. Very well done. I liked and subscribed because of the Spirit I felt. (5 years after you posted it) Now I'll check out the 45-minute video you referred to. Thank you!
Thanks for watching! More videos like these can be found on our sister channel, Keystone :)
You guys did a really great job explaining plural marriage back in the early days of the church. I've tried explaining these things to people before, but it's hard without all the quotes and facts you've provided. I think in the future I will refer this video to others so they can understand it better than when I try to explain it myself.
Here is a fact.....
If a man multiply unto himself wives.....His heart will be moved away from God......this is what the Bible says.......it is that plain....it is that precious.
We see the consequences throughout history.
@@ryanadams5719 It's true that when men take for themselves multiple wives when God has not allowed it, then it is a sin and can lead to consequences. God sometimes allows men to have multiple wives throughout history including in the bible for many purposes some of which only God knows. King David is an example of this, he was given many wives by God. However, King David lost his favor with God when he lusted after a woman (Bathsheba) that God had not given him, a woman who was married. David killed the woman's husband by sending him into the front lines of battle and then took the woman for himself. Breaking many of God's commandments.
@@JonathonMellor In 2 Samuel 12, the Lord, speaking through Nathan the prophet, says to King David, “I gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your arms, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added you many more things like these.”
At face value, this seems to suggest that God gave David multiple wives, and then stood ready to add to his harem with divine sanction. Of course, that’s precisely the problem with pressing Scripture into a wooden literal labyrinth, because-in truth-if Nathan’s words are anything at all, they are ironic. David had just murdered a man in order to have another woman appended to his harem. Despite the generosity of the very God who had made him sovereign ruler of the land, the king had stolen the wife of a servant and that to satisfy his carnal lust. Thus, in language that dripped with irony, Nathan the prophet pronounces judgment against Israel’s king. As such, 2 Samuel 12 hardly constitutes divine approval for the practice of polygamy.
And this is not a singular case. As with David, Solomon, David’s son, had extravagances in multiplying not only horses, but multiplying wives, and that was a significant factor in the unraveling of a kingdom. Who can forget the explicit admonition of Moses in Deuteronomy 17:17: Do not multiply wives or your heart will be led astray! If this applied to the great kings of Israel, how much more the subjects of the kingdom. Moreover, monogamous marriage is clearly taught in Genesis (2:22-24), and then reiterated by Christ himself. Indeed, Jesus went on to say that, “Anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery” (Matt 19:9). Not only so, but marriage is an analogy for the relationship that God has with his people, with the Church, His one and only bride.
Furthermore, reading the Bible for all its worth involves recognition that the narratives of Scripture are often descriptive as opposed to prescriptive. The fact that Scripture reveals the patriarchs with all their warts and moles and wrinkles is to warn us of their failures, it’s not to teach us to emulate their practices. Far from blinking at David’s polygamous behavior, the Bible reveals that as a result of his sin, the sword never left his home.
Finally, let me say this; As God permitted divorce because of the hardness of men’s hearts, so too He put up with polygamy because of humankind’s insolent stubbornness. Indeed, God causes even the wrath of man to please Him.
@@ryanadams5719 Were Abraham and Jacob sinning in their practice of plural marriage, or was their plural marriage permitted by God?
I would like to thank you for your information. I myself also think polygamy is very unfair to women. I'm a LDS women who in the last year has had a experience with my 37yr old daughter she contacted me very upset about polygamy and other things. I told her Heavenly father loves us very much. He is so wise and sees the bigger picture. In time we will know why he had these men practice polygamy. I plan on sharing this video with her. So thank you again.
Most (if not all) critics think that the men practiced polygamy because they wanted extra women.
Most of the critics are men, hence, we know how men think. We aren't complicated creatures. So when we see a man lying to his wife while he has literally dozens of women secretly, we see clearly that his motive wasn't exactly pure
What motive do you think God had for making sure that the leaders got so many more women than the lower down brothers? Why did God want the leaders to have so much pleasure while making the women suffer so much pain?
Remember, if it isn't love, it isn't God commanding it
This is why critics are shocked at Joseph Smith.
Your 37yr old daughter sees what all other men see.
Never even once has any prophet in the Bible lied to his wife about having other men's wives secretly. Every time it has been done in modern history it's been by false prophets.
So we see Joseph Smith doing this and we see we have 2 options. Either God suddenly started telling his true prophet to act like a false prophet. Or Joseph was simply in the category he appears to be in, based on his actions.
He disowned the action both publicly and privately. He even sent away young wives when Emma told him to. These are not the actions of a man who valued the young women he used for his own sexual pleasure. These are like Warren Jeffs, bit with more lying.
Even the church's apologetics arm "F.A.I.R." mention that "Oliver Cowdery perceived the relationship between Joseph and Fanny as a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair"" (I would link it but UA-cam may delete my comment if I did. Please Google it to check if you don't trust me)
No amount of burning in the bosom will make a rational person accept his actions as godly. He used women like worthless tissues and threw them away whenever it suited him.
I love and respect you. It's not your fault for what he did. Joseph Smith was a bad man
www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Question:_Did_some_of_Joseph_Smith%27s_associates_believe_that_he_had_an_affair_with_Fanny_Alger%3F
@@truth.speaker God's "motive" for only allowing certain men to practice polygamy instead of everyone, is so that women were not abused and taken advantage of by unrighteousness men.
There is zero evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual conduct with any of the other women. If he was such an adulterous man where are all the illegitimate children?
If it isn't love it isn't God commanding it? Really? Ok. Old Testament style: 1 Samuel 15 - basically, "Go and kill all those people (man, woman, child and beast) living in that city".
Emma's whole reaction to polygamy makes her account rather biased. She claimed in her deathbed that Joseph never had any other wives despite evidence to the contrary and her own previous comments. At various times she said it was a commandment from God given to Joseph at other times she denied any knowledge of it. It was obviously not a commandment she liked or wanted her husband to obey. I believe Emma's account for a lot of things but polygamy is not one of them. She clearly had a dislike for the commandment and her changing opinion on it does not make her the most reliable source.
Using the quote from Oliver Cowdery on polygamy is a super lazy ex-mo thing to do. He clearly had know knowledge of what was going on, only that Joseph had married another woman. That was the extent of his knowledge. The quote is just his personal feelings about polygamy with no knowledge of what was actually going on.
Joseph Smith was a bad man? A bad man who wrote a book about Jesus Christ that has convinced millions to follow Christ and try to be like him? A man who received over a hundred recorded revelations from God? A man who inspired tens of thousands to travel to the USA and trek miles across the country because they read a book he wrote that made them "feel good"? A man who taught others to follow Christ? Yes he seems very bad. And all of this anger towards him because some people with unsubstantiated stories told some convincing lies about him? Yes sure let's throw everything else out he did and focus purely on some lies and rumours people spread about him. Top quality stuff 👌
@@Samuel-et7bd Samuel, to claim that Joseph 'brought people to Christ' is the same claim made by those who practice priestcraft. We can't pretend that everyone who claims to encourage discipleship is working for God, can we? Many false teachers have sheep's clothing, but inside they are ravenous wolves (Matthew 7)
I mean no offense by saying this, but Samuel, you do not understand this subject. Please continue researching. You need to understand. For example, in the gospel topics essay the church writes "Sealings for time and eternity included commitments and relationships during this life, generally including the possibility of sexual relations. Eternity-only sealings indicated relationships in the next life alone. Evidence indicates that Joseph Smith participated in both types of sealings."
If you think he wasn't banging at least some of them, you need to read what the church has clearly said. He had sex with multiple women behind Emma's back. This is just truth. He lied to Emma. This is a fact. He claimed it was cool because God told him to (just like many other false prophets claim), but check the dates. Was Fanny Alger BEFORE he had "authority" to do this? Research, my friend. Research. Find truth. You will see that Joseph was marrying women, commanding letters to be burned and covering up with lies and deceit.
Isn't it odd that Jesus warned us against false prophets and their bad fruits, only for the one true prophet to end up doing exactly the things Jesus warned us about? Strange, eh?
@@Samuel-et7bd "to remove the Lord's name from the lord's church is a great victory for Satan"
True or false?
Does that sentence not remove "the Lord's name" and replace it with the word "Lord"? Funny how even today's "prophet", condemns the church's 150 year old practice, claiming Mormons were secretly giving victories to Satan for decades, yet ends up doing exactly that same thing in the very sentence he "revealed" it in (by calling Jesus by a different title, instead of his name). Clearly this is a "blind guide", Samuel. How truly sad.
I'm not blaming you. But clearly your prophet is condemning himself, the church members, the past prophets, and ironically, in so doing, he condemned himself. How very, very blind
that Brigham Young quote had my goth senses a-tinglin
answer: yes
Wrong
@@DannyAGray she didn't studied church history
No❤️
I have extensively studied church history. Joseph Smith was a fraud in many respects
Haleigh...you should know better than telling the truth like that!
It's a mystery to me that society, in general, embraces fornication with multiple, shared partners, singularly and plurally, yet abhors the idea of having legal, loving polygamic relationships.
Both should be abhorred
@@MA-wb1xo one should while the other needs to be better understood.
Facts🎉
A very balanced and historically correct understanding video. Forgot to mention where Isaiah predicted polygamy in the latterday.
Great video. So so so good. I love your whole "faith and beliefs" series but this one was just perfect. Thank you.
The drawn sword “revelation” is speculation. It’s not canonised teaching.
Actually it is.
@@MrRugbyrugbyrugby no it’s not.
Can you do a video about Fanny Alger?
LOL LOL having fanny was what Joe cared about
Иван Русь yeah it literally just sounds like plain adultery to me, I want to see the Mormons’ explanation for this
It's not gonna happen-promise
Joseph was practicing polygamy before the sealing authority was given. LDS historian, Richard Bushman, said “There is evidence that Joseph was a polygamist by 1835” (Rough Stone Rolling, p.323). Plural marriages are rooted in the notion of “sealing” for both time and eternity. The “sealing” power was not restored until April 3, 1836 when Elijah appeared to Joseph in the Kirtland Temple and conferred the sealing keys upon him. So, Joseph’s marriage to Fanny Alger in 1833 was illegal under both the laws of the land and under any theory of divine authority; it was adultery.
Yes, but polygamy is not an issue of sealing. It is an issue of marriage. Just look at the Bible. There is zero mention of polygamy in relation to sealing. No. any polygamous marriages done prior to 1836 was not illegal under the laws of God, because God never revoked His laws allowing polygamy. Polygamy was revoked by corrupt Christian and Jewish leaders in the early centuries AD. Therefore the Christian standards against polygamy were invalid.
Michael Ellis yet LDS will say marriage is between a man and a woman which is why God created Adam and Eve. But yes JS was just sitting there having tea and coffee I mean milk and cookies with his many wives. 😉
@@MichaelEllisYT .....let's talk about God's standard against sin.
Rather than the Christian standard against polygamy.
After all....Christians didn't set the standard.....
And what are you, or historians, basing Joseph being married to Fanny on? A letter written by Oliver Cowdery who was at odds with Joseph at the time and who was just repeating rumor? Or are you basing it off of the 1872 letter Williaim McLellin wrote to Joseph's oldest son, relating the barn incident, in an attempt to convince him that his father practiced polygamy?
NoStoppingit7 the fact that the church says he practiced polygamy. So the church is lying? The sealing records proved he was sealed to other wives. If the church accepts it and you don’t then you’re going against the true church.
This was so well done, thank you! 👏🏻
Thank you for your comment!!
Yes
I am also curious about the Church's position in recent decades. I know now ex-mormons who were excommunicated for bringing up the topic of polygamy decades ago. They simply wanted answers. How was this type of suppression of history of God?
I don't think polygamy in general has been suppressed. I've known about it since I was a child. That said, a lot of people thought it began with Brigham Young, not Joseph Smith. Was Joseph Smith's polygamy suppressed? I don't know. Could have been. Joseph himself tried to keep it a secret (when it got out in the open he was killed, in part, for it). So I wouldn't be surprised if others did as well. Also, there's just a lot we simply haven't known in the past, and still a ton we don't know now. It's not a very well documented thing.
But I do agree to an extent, I think the polygamy issue could have been handled better in past decades. But I understand why it hasn't gotten much lime-light. It's not something anyone really wants to touch.
It's clear that people don't have to be perfect to be called of God. The next question, though, is how *imperfect* does a prophet need to be before God removes that sacred calling from them. In the case of the polygamous founding fathers of Christianity, we Christians only have a couple of options:
God sanctioned their polygamy. In which case, it's a clear precedent and condemning Joseph Smith becomes more difficult. If God sanctioned it then, He can sanction it in the 1830s.
Or God did not sanction their polygamy, in which case they seriously sinned. Yet, God still allowed them to be prophets (otherwise, Christianity would be founded upon fallen prophets, which I think we can agree was not the case). This would also set a precedent, though an even less-savory one, of prophets practicing polygamy. Either way, it's hard to saw Joseph couldn't be a prophet because he practiced polygamy.
I'm not sure what happened to your ex-communicated friends. I'm sure there was more to each of their stories, but if mistakes were made in their excommunication, those people will answer for it. Have a great day!
I tend to be skeptical when I hear about people who were excommunicated "just for asking questions." To my knowledge, asking questions has never been punishable - but pointing out contradictions and claiming the church must be wrong because of X does suggest apostasy, especially if they are telling others that the church is lying about it. If they were humbly seeking the truth and trying to serve the Lord the best they could, I would have expected them to stay with the church and try to be rebaptized rather than quitting entirely. This is partly speculation on my part, and I'm sure there have been excommunications for improper reasons, but the frequently-repeated claim that "they simply wanted answers" doesn't hold for me.
I have a question. If any movies, music, books, tv shows, and other forms of media that have sex, violence, and language are considered inappropriate, a bad influence, and so on, then why do so many people keep ignoring the fact that the Bible is full of adultery, rape, genocide, and human sacrifices?
@@ANT96-x8d God punishes the sins you mention. They are not ignored, we recognize God's grace in forgiving then when people repent.
sylvia g Then what about the parts about God drowning the world in the whole Noah’s Ark thing, forcing Abraham to stab his own son to death, and even sending an angel of death to kill ever firstborn of Egypt(which could be any age from babies to children)?
7:10 this is a gross misreading of Jacob 2. It’s saying the opposite.
There is no evidence that polygamy was anything more than a cultural practice in the Old Testament and in some cultures today. It was not commanded by God, except in Joseph Smith's revision of the Bible. Polyandry was especially forbidden in the Jewish culture. At 3:35 you say that there is no evidence that Joseph Smith was intimate with any of his polyandrous wives. Apparently you are not familiar with the claim of Sylvia Sessions Lyon that her daughter Josephine was fathered by Joseph Smith. This was a commonly accepted belief in the church for several decades until DNA testing proved that Windsor Lyon, Sylvia's legal husband, was the birth father. Why would Sylvia claim that Joseph Smith was Josephine's birth father if she was not having intimate relations with both men within the time period that she got pregnant? A number of the 'wives' of Joseph Smith testified in a court of law (Temple Lot case) that they had sex with Joseph Smith. Read Todd Compton's "In Sacred Loneliness" for poignant biographies of each of the known 'wives' of Joseph Smith.
For Joseph Smith to claim that he had been commanded by God and threatened by an angel with a flaming sword, is so manipulative that it defies description. The women he persuaded to "marry" him by participating in a fake wedding ceremony were no more married under the laws of the land than they were before the ceremony. But while they believed that that fake wedding ceremony, (which was illegal under the laws of bigamy in every state and territory where it was practiced), gave Joseph Smith conjugal rights, the women had NO LEGAL rights whatsoever. They had no claim to his name, his property, or his financial support. This was, in my opinion, emotional abuse, and I have lost whatever respect I ever had for Joseph Smith. How can men who consider themselves good men, continue to support such a man?
deskjockie49 Mic drop!!!! YESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
deskjockie49 you are dismissing the fact that prophets practiced it in the Old Testament, saying it was cultural, but had it been evil they would not have been prophets.
@@veronicajordan8282 nah its largely been believed by jews and mainstream christians that polygamy as it appears in the bible is not the ideal. biblical characters are not seen as perfect and sinless, in fact theyre often very flawed even if they are described as otherwise good. joseph smith and the mormon prophets on the other hand, act like theyre always right.
Jonah Antuna that’s not true, Joseph Smith and all the other prophets since, have never been taught to us as not having flaws, they were not perfect just as the the prophets of old were not perfect.
@@veronicajordan8282 idk the bible seems to only tolerate it but joseph smith made it a requirement
I would like to suggest that you do A LOT of research and do another video on this topic.
Gordon B. Hinckley about polygamy: "We have nothing to do with it. It is against the law. Members of the LDS-church practicing polygamy will be excommunicated". Is there anyone of the audience who is aware of a gap? I mean, do you notice that nothing, but nothing is said about virtue or ethics? Members of the church need very badly, what it is to live an exemplary lifestyle. Or is the image of Joseph Smith in jeopardy?
The image of Joseph is very much in jeopardy because he didn't just practice polygamy, claiming he wasn't involved for many years, but also polyandry... The taking of another man's wife.
Very well done. Many thanks. When push comes to shove, I always take refuge in my testimony to prevail over anything questionable.
One question I have is why God needed to coerce Joseph with an angel with a flaming sword. God could have sent that angel to put a stop to slavery or the holocaust. But no, according to Mormons the most pressing issue to god in all of history since the Resurrection of Christ was Joseph Smith not being married or "sealed" to 14 year old girls and other mens' wives.
Not exactly. Most versions did not have a sword at all, let alone flaming. Like most of Joseph's angelic visits it was likely a personal message. I think the interpretation that the angel was threatening violence is also suspect. Smith used the term 'destruction' quite often in his sermons, always meaning the spiritual consequences of sin. I think the story has been exaggerated over time. Early versions did not even mention any sword at all.
Your question really just boils down to why God doesn't stop evil things from happening. You mentioned two modern problems, but the same question could be asked about a lot of the dreadful things that happened to God's followers in the Bible that He allowed to happen.
The fact is that God doesn't directly interfere with the vast majority of problems the world has. That's just a fact that you have to accept. I do have theories on why He doesn't do anything about them such as my suggestion that perhaps he wants us to deal with such problems on our own as a test, or how I suspect that He also uses these horrors to shape people become better through hardship, but the fact is that we'll never know in this life why God directly interferes with some rare matters but not with all the countless others.
Do a careful reading of D&C 132 that outlines plural marriage and you'll notice the words destroy and obey used many times and you never see words like love or cherish. It's true that Joseph's polygamy wasn't just about sex, it was also about power and control.
Amazing video really helped me answer some of my questions
Look up Brother Jake, for more testimonials. It'll help you see more pressing questions in a clear light
Great job on this David! So well said!
I thought this was very well done. Thanks!
David Snell would you commit an equivalent genocide if it was revealed by the prophetthat it must be done and is a commandment of God?
No.
@@davidsnell2605 why not? The isrealite people apparently did it just because their prophet said so.
@@davidsnell2605 your video talks about all the things that people had to do back in the day to test their faith. You would fail that test. What about if the prophet asked you to sacrifice your child on an altar? Or removing the head of Trump because it is better that one man should perish than an entire nation should dwindle in unbelief?
Would you take a second or third wife if they asked you to?
@@athenshuff8730 I would need a witness similar to the witness many of the early saints received concerning polygamy (some of their experiences are provided in the video) for me to do anything like that. We're always entitled to a personal witness.
You make it sound as if people blindly and unquestioningly followed Joseph Smith, which, especially in the case of polygamy, was not the case, nor what was asked for or required. Multiple women simply turned Joseph down. Others said 'no' until they received a witness that what he was asking was ok with God.
I try to follow the advice (ironically) of the prophet Brigham Young: "I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. ... Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not."
Would you commit genocide if you did recieve such a witness?
Hyrum said the lord never commanded polygamy so get that out of your heads. He never did once until Brigham pulled 132 doctored it up to fit it in with his “new order of things”!
I have one question for you. Why did the church coincidentally continue to practice polygamy until the federal government threatened to destroy the Mormon church?
Ralph Perez Ok I’m not a professional by any means but in the manifesto he says that the government had banned polygamy and he was letting the government know that the church was not permitting it. In fact apparently, the church hadn’t been permitting it to anyone. Polygamy was technically allowed up to then, but people were doing it without permission. Again, this history is complicated and I may not be 100% right but this is what I got from reading it. I hoped that this may have answered your question.
What do you mean it was allowed but people were doing it without permission? Do you mean the gov was allowing it or the church was allowing it. If the church was Why would they need permission if it was allowed?@@oliverash5892 please be more specific with your language
Hello, In the Book of Mormon. What is the meaning of Jacob 2:27?
I may make a video on this topic. I haven't been able to get anyone to answer a question yet.. According to Jacob 2, David and Solomon had many wives and it was abominable to God. But in D&C 132, David did not sin and his wives were given by God. How can these contradictory statements be reconciled?
@@freethinker1026 What do you mean? The other was from Doctrines and Covenants 132.
The Bible itself answers your question. Notice that Jacob 2 doesn't mention Abraham, Jacob, Moses or any of the other righteous Hebrews who practiced polygamy. It mentions only David and Solomon, who clearly sinned in taking women they couldn't as wives.
Whenever people say "I never be able to answer this question" I'm suspicious that you did get an answer but it was just one you didn't liek
My father once told me, "you shouldn't talk about things you don't understand". Fact is God stated clearly in D&C132 verse 1 no less that both polygamy and concubines are instituted for the fullness of his glory. I am not going to attempt to explain my thoughts and feelings about this accept to say that I believe God is just, fair, and true and also justifies his Holy Prophets. In my experience when we do not understand something it's because we do not have all the information, as God told Joseph at the end of section 132 that God has much more to reveal to Joseph on this whole subject alluded to in verse #1 as well as what was commanded to be offered to Emma to teach a higher veiw but then immediately prohibited of God. I testify that God's ways are higher than ours and we would do well not to speak evil of his Prophets past or present.
Unfair to women??? I can't imagine how fair it is to a man to be outnumbered and subject to 3 women demanding honey-dos all day.
Great comment.
Thank you for this video! By the way, Mary Hales was my 3rd Great Grandmother, so it was kind of cool to see a quote/picture from her included in this video!
So much respect for you trying to cover this. It’s about time the LDS church addressed this and the other extremely challenging topics you have covered. I really think you did the best you could do and my heart and prayer goes out to you.
That being said, I still don’t understand how you believe that God, the perfect and just God of the Bible, would tempt Joseph Smith to sin. Or tempt nephi to kill Laban? James 1:13 says God can’t tempt anyone.
You’re right there is polygamy in the Bible but there’s also murder and many other sins, that’s the thing though GOD STILL CALLS IT SIN. God never once in the Bible encourages polygamy He discourages it. Abraham was wrong to sleep with Hagar. David was wrong to sleep with Bathsheba. The Bible is very very clear about these being sins and moments where those men failed.
If Joseph Smith was really a man of God he would have known what Jesus said in Luke 16:18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”
Or Matthew 19:9 or Romans 7:2-3 and stood on that in the face of being tempted by that “angel”.
Let’s say an angel did tell him to do those things, he should have known satan can disguise himself as an angel of light (2 Cor. 11:14) and that he should have tested the spirit (1 John 4:1).
A real test of Joseph’s smiths faith would have been him standing on the Word of God like Abraham did (trusting God’s promise to make him the father of nations (Hebrews 11)) and saying no weapon formed against me will prosper or to live is Christ to die is gain and let the demon strike him with the sword.
I don’t see how any of you believe that this sexist racist man named Joseph Smith represented the Holy God. I think it is much more likely he was visited multiple times by satan in an attempt to deceive him and with him so so so many others. Can you see how that could be a possibility? If not, why? Why do you believe that angel was sent from God to tell Joseph to sin? Or do you disagree with Jesus that what Joseph did wasn’t sin?
I’d really appreciate an honest response from someone. I’ve been meeting with missionaries for months now, my best friend is LDS. I want to understand but I can’t get past this at all.
You could get past it only if first you humble yourself to the possibility that maybe you have a few incorrect preconceived notions. Take a few steps back.
@@vendingdudes I love you, so I'll tell you straight … your response gives absolutely no refutation of Joseph's secret actions.
With love, not hate, I'll tell you that the complete failure of the church to acknowledge the sins of its past hurts deeply
Read your Bible my friend, it's worse than you think. God does command people to break commandments without it being considered sin. Just like Nephi was commanded to kill Labin. Saul was commanded to wipe out a town killing women and children.
This was one of the three things the Israelites were obliged to do when they came into the land of Canaan, as Kimchi observes; one was, to appoint a king (Saul) over them, another, to build the house of the sanctuary, and the third, to blot out the name and memory of Amalek
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’” (God even commanded to kill little babies)
Nowhere does God ever declare polygamy to be sinful or speak a negative word against it in the Bible. The Law assumed that polygamy would be a valid, moral expression of marriage in Israelite society along with monogamy as shown in Exodus 21:7-11, Deut 21:15-17, Deut 22:22-29, and Deut 25:5-10. The Levirate Law in Deuteronomy 25:5-10, which commands a brother to marry his deceased brother’s childless widow and have children in his brother’s name, makes no exception if the surviving brother is already married. Therefore this command would result in polygamous marriages if the surviving brother was already married, and in practice it often did. Furthermore, God figuratively describes himself as having a polygamous relationship with Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 3:6-11 and Ezekiel 23:1-12. Also, Jesus’ parable in Matthew 25:1-13 describes the coming Kingdom in terms of polygamy between a single bridegroom and ten virgins.
The Bible is actually more disturbing then LDS History. In the Bible you can rape a virgin as long as you pay the father 50 shackles of silver but you are commanded marry the girl for the rest of your life.
Now ask yourself this question why doesn't the God of the Bible care about the woman's feelings, because apparently she doesn't get to make her own discussion. Sorry you have to marry the guy that raped you.
This is why the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth and a man would get closer to God by abiding to it's precepts then any other book.
This doesn't mean the Book of Mormon has to be a historical manuscript, but it just needs to be a spiritual one. The truth of the Book of Mormon is that it brings a man to God by abiding by it's precepts.
Jacob specifically mentioned unauthorized polygamy as an iniquitous practice. “Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. . . . Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old” (Jacob 2:24, 26). Jacob therefore categorized such unauthorized instances of polygyny and concubinage (a man marrying multiple women), as sinful, for, he said, God “delight[s] in the chastity of women” (Jacob 2:28), and would not tolerate lascivious men abusing women (Jacob 2:32-33).
What do you believe is the most correct?
(1) Bible that allows polygamy
(2) Book of Mormon doesn't allow polygamy
Doctrine and Covenants 129 gives further light and knowledge on how to discern between messengers of God vs those of the devil.
Well if Joseph was someone tempted by Satan, he couldn't possibly produce a book which he claimed was from God, dripping with vital and clear doctrines that actually helps people come closer to Christ. If you could read the Book of Mormon you will know what I am talking about.
I’m a former Mormon drag queen who loves Mormons. Thank you for this honest, amazing video!
“Honest?” Lies by omission.
That's a coincidence. I'm a Mormon who loves drag queens.
Lol love your username
The thing that is the most damning thing to me is the way Joseph Smith went about getting these women to marry him. He would essentially tell these women/teens that if they married him that they and their families would recieve eternal exaltation and if they didn't, they and their entire families would be damned. It's like putting a gun to someone's head and asking them to make a choice. Also, if you want some really good information, read the Emma Smith biography. It's not intended to be faith harming. But any basic study in psychology and you get a picture that Joseph Smith was a very likely a liar, charlatan, philanderer, and emotionally abusive to his wife Emma. He had some good qualities of course, as charlatans often do.
I highly doubt that Joseph said if someone didnt marry him her entire family would be damned. Just for future references just because someone says Joseph said something doesnt actually mean it was said. A lot of people say a lot of stupid things.
As an adult, Joseph Smith was convicted in a court of law for having sex with a 14-year old girl. The judge, having pity on him for being a normal young man, he let him go. And then there was the teen girl Joseph Smith brought into his household as a "maid"...until his wife caught him with her in the barn. Let us not overlook the adulterous affairs Joseph Smith had with other men's legally married wives. But these and countless other things concerning Joseph Smith are carefully, consistently, and thoroughly covered up by church leaders and members whose denial (intentional and unwitting) is synonymous their 'faith.' Joseph Smith was a felon. Bank fraud was only one of his great accomplishments. An attempt by disenchanted members of the church to reveal Joseph Smith's true character to the public (based on their first-hand experience) resulted in Joseph Smith ordered other members of the church to break into the building where the printing press was and destroy it -- yet another felony. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is predicated upon perpetuated falsehoods. The keystone "Joseph's Smith's First Vision" was carefully crafted, radically altered, calculated, and evolved as a process over time before finally emerging as a final version that was determined to be the most acceptable for public assimilation. The truth be known, if the church operated openly, honestly, and without all the secrecy and cover-ups, all the dishonesty surrounding Joseph Smith's dealing would be an easier matter of record, but now -- after generations of trying to save face, and after building a multi-$billion global empire, the church is fighting to survive the scrutiny. Even Joseph Smith's first legal wife, Emma, married him after they ran away together because Joseph Smith was a rather shiftless young man and was not able to get permission from Emma's father to marry her. The idea of taking what you want was fundamental to the life of Joseph Smith from his youth. But he was very clever -- and I would suggest that he was even something of a genius. He cobbled together what became (and under very suspicious circumstances) America's first and only original 'Christian' religion. If you hate Bernie Madoff for causing so much trouble in the world, for being so incredibly selfish, and for hurting so many people, but you respect that he was clever enough to pull it off -- until he got caught, then respect Joseph Smith. Members of the church are not told the truth. They get only the very biased one-sided propaganda from the church, and they tend to accept it rather blindly. Those who somehow come to a "fullness of the truth" end up leaving the church. It is the logical and the only reasonable outcome. The other members of the church -- especially hard-core indoctrinated members -- particularly those that have been in the raised church and whose families are multi-generational church families -- really don't know any better, and can't really be blamed for their lack of knowledge. Just as the global Genome Project discovered the falseness of the claim of Joseph Smith that the American Indians came from Israel by boat, so does truth eventually win out over myth, deceit, and fantasy with the rest of the Mormon church's claims. One of the best researchers (himself an ex-Mormon) that is an excellent resource on Josh Smith the Mormon church's 'history' is Grant Palmer. He has no ax to grind. He upholds the truth. He is a man of integrity. He calls it like it is. His story and some of his videos can be found on UA-cam. Not all church members are bad, but the church is false, and is predicated upon false claims. Some church members will never care whether or not the church is false. Pray for the other members of the Mormon church to find their way to the truth. For some it is a hard journey, but it is a journey with integrity.
What's the purpose of your dishonest comment?
@richardholme
s7199
X members like to burn Down the building when they leave. They hate to think that anyone else should occupy that space. There is no known Xplanation of why.
Don’t forget that D&C 132 is still cannon and that it mentions plural marriage as a requirement for men to gain exaltation and to become gods. Not only that but if you don’t abide in plural marriage that you are damned.
yes, that is because current LDS leaders WILL practice polygamy when they die. Numerous leaders and many members have been married and sealed, had a spouse pass, and have become married and sealed a second time. When these couples all pass away they will be rejoined in a polygamous marriage in the afterlife, where they will (scripturally speaking) have physical relations to produce spirit children. This is LDS doctrine. Or as Kwaku would say "Its just a fact." :)
Section 132 does not mention plural marriage is a requirement for exaltation and to become a god.
Michael, the chapter summary in section 132 defines celestial marriage as plural marriage. Verses 1-6 state that Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant. Verses 15-20 state that celestial marriage and the continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods. Verses 4-6 says that if you abide not in that covenant that Ye are damned saith the Lord God. As time has gone on celestial marriage has shifted from being plural marriage which was supposed to be a everlasting covenant to now being temple marriage. It don’t matter to me either way, but the text says what it says. The early prophets would also agree.
More on this here if anyone is interested. You are, of course, free to interpret D&C 132 as you deem appropriate. www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_polygamy/Requirement_for_exaltation#Question:_Does_D.26C_132_state_that_polygamy_is_required_for_our_exaltation.3F
David, truly enjoy your videos, keep at it!! Much love!
Did Joseph Smith use polygamy to get with women?
YES
Do you have any evidence that God commanded or required polygamy in the Bible?
Well, it looks like there’s no evidence in the Bible. Just because it happened, doesn’t mean God commanded it.
There is nothing that says in the bible that you can't have sex with more than one women as long as you own them or are married to them. You only can't have sex with a women who belongs to someone else. I knew a guy in Orem ,Utah that had two wives. He belonged to a fundamentalist group. They all go down to mexico and get married then come bake to the states.
@@kennance115read 1 Kings 11 in the bible Solomon was punished for what he did.
So…God told Joe to practice polygamy. He sent an Angel three times to tell him to do it. But Joe outsmarted God and only kinda/sorta married all of those women until…..later.
If I wanted a religion to make me stretch this much I’d join the one that does yoga.
I dunno. There's a lot omitted here. Emma wasn't Joseph's first sealed wife, Emma didn't know, the marriages started before the sealing power was revealed, the legal affidavit of the wives and intimacy... All these things are really important, but they weren't mentioned in the video.
Good point...classic coverup.
This is a fairly good video, though I think it probably could've addressed things a bit better than it did (I hardly blame you for that, it's a very complicated topic and most of the evidence we have about it at all is after the fact, at least as it related to Joseph Smith). I will do my best to elaborate on why Dave suggests that Joseph was originally trying to find a way to sort of get around the commandment in a way (and why this indicates that we was sincerely trying to spare Emma the distress that it would inevitably cause).
The timeline goes something like this:
1. First angel visit commanding Joseph Smith to practice plural marriage. Not too long after this the first plural marriage is done and it's messy for everyone involved, not a pretty picture.
- After this, a considerable amount of time goes by before Joseph dares go near the practice of polygamy. It's unclear when Joseph received his second visit from the angel, but the way I see it, it's most likely not long before Joseph is married to yet another woman
2. After that Joseph starts with the polyamorous marriages, marrying women who were already married to someone else. Anything before 2016 related to this topic is outdated. We thought that we had evidence that Joseph had a daughter with one of these married women, but genetic research indicates that Joseph and his supposed daughter, Josephine, are not related. So before 2016 the evidence pointed towards these polyamorous marriages being consummated, but now we have good reason to think that they weren't, as all any other potential candidates for Joseph's children conceived through these polyamorous marriages are ruled out except for maybe one of them, who died in infancy, and thus we aren't able to collect any genetic material from their descendants to see if they're related to Joseph. Given that all other candidates from these polyamorous marriages are duds, I think it's a safe assumption to say that they weren't consummated.
Along with all of that, it was frequently the case that Joseph approached the husbands of these women to see if they would be okay with it. If you're some sex crazed charlatan trying to seduce women in the 1800's, the last thing you would want to do is go kindly ask the women's husband if they were okay with it. Back then, if you caught your wife committing adultery with a man, it was considered legal homicide to kill the man who was sleeping with your wife. In addition to that, there were a number of husbands that he approached who weren't even members of the church but were nonetheless friends of the church, and in one case one such husband actually asked Joseph to be sealed to his wife because he had no interest in things regarding the afterlife but wanted his wife to be able to be sealed to someone. All of these non-member husbands (to my knowledge) remained friends of the church for the rest of their lives. Also, as far as I'm aware, Emma had no issues with these marriages, because it seems that they were sealings for eternity only, and thus Joseph wasn't having sexual relations with them. This is why it's suggested that these marriages were Joseph's attempt to technically keep the commandment of God to practice polygamy but avoid having sex with them to spare Emma distress.
3. Then the third angel visit happened, and this is when it's said that the angel threatened Joseph with a sword, telling him to get with the program or suffer the consequences. This is when the polyamorous marriages mostly stopped with a few exceptions. In these marriages, at least some of them were consummated, and these are the ones that Emma found very painful to deal with, and she never seemed to fully reconcile herself with the doctrine of plural marriage (understandably so, I can hardly imagine how difficult it would've been).
But tell me, does that sound a whole lot like Joseph is just in it for the sex? If you ask me, I would say no, but that's merely how I interpret the evidence. It is up to everyone to come to their own conclusion. It is understandable to have extreme discomfort regarding this topic. You'd have to be a fool to not see why mixing sex and religion like this is fairly alarming, and a good reason to be very careful in coming to an informed understanding.
Now, there's a few other common themes that I've seen in the comments that I also think I could address:
- No, Joseph did not force women into plural marriage. He did not tell them that if they didn't comply then he would be killed by an angel with a flaming sword. There were women who he approached about the subject who told him no, and they remained in the Church with no issue. In one case Joseph broached the topic with one woman, saying that he was going to tell her about plural marriage. She asked him to tell someone else.
- No, plural marriage is not necessary for exaltation, and as far as I'm aware Joseph Smith never said it was. Wilford Woodruff said that he never heard Joseph teach such a thing. There's one quote from Brigham Young which, when taken out of context, certainly seems to be saying that plural marriage is necessary for exaltation. However, when you look at the text before and after that quote, it becomes clear that he's saying that an acceptance of plural marriage as doctrine is what is necessary, not personally practicing it oneself. Most members of the Church at the time didn't practice plural marriage. It was a minority of members, though obviously not an insignificant amount. The one exception to this is that a later prophet, Joseph F. Smith, did think that it was necessary for exaltation, but given that he's the only church authority who has claimed that I think we can safely go with what the majority of leaders have taught.
- Plural marriage could in theory come back, but if you ask me I highly doubt it. It could technically be argued that in a way it is still in force, but only so far as if your spouse dies it is perfectly fine to marry and be sealed to someone else, and your sealing to your previous spouse is still intact. But plural marriage in the mortal stage of our progression is not permitted at present. In Jacob 2:30, (albeit not something that people who aren't Latter-Day Saints would accept as scripture, but a Biblical case could theoretically be made for it as well, though this comment is long enough so I shall forebear) makes it clear that while monogamous marriages are the norm, God can sanction polygamous marriages should it suit His purposes, but when it has not been sanctioned it is a direct violation of Gods commandments. That is the state we currently inhabit in regards to God's commands about plural marriage.
Again, this is my interpretation of the evidence. It's perfectly possible for people to look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions. It all depends on what assumptions you bring to the table. If you assume that Joseph isn't a true prophet then you would be inclined to think of him as a scumbag. I'm inclined to believe that he is a prophet, in my opinion evidenced by the Book of Mormon. And that's all just fine. Make of it what you will. If you have genuine concerns or questions about this topic, just know that there's no easy answers, and you'll have to look and search for quite a while, but you can find the answers if you look earnestly. If you do genuinely want to find answers, go ahead, commit to the search, and remember that our understanding of history changes as new evidence comes to light. You can search, and you don't have to be afraid of what you'll find if you do search. If you already have a testimony of the Book of Mormon and a personal relationship with God, if you've made covenants with Him, remember those things. You can be searching for answers and having concerns and still remain faithful to your covenants and relationship with God. Fear not, He'll guide you if you let Him and search with dedication and patience, of that I bear witness, in the Name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Thank you for this. I have been struggling with the subject of Polygamy for a long time. I didn't want it to affect my testimony. Your explanation helps me.
Please never allow it to shake your testimony of God
Joseph did this in secret. The church covered his actions up until the internet exposed him almost 200 years later! I can see why that would shake your faith in Joseph Smith.
Please don't give up on God.
It's hard to blame just Joseph when the church covered it up too.
He pressured his victims to get his desires met secretly behind Emma's back. He also married other married women
This video doesn't fix these issues
A man like him could never be used by God
Jesus said we should keep searching. Please keep searching until you find the truth 🙂
@@thinkingman1820 Marrying fourteen-year-olds is a disgrace!!
@@thinkingman1820 I don't think you watched the video.
Great explanation and insight, I feel the same.
Even Abraham’s wife was NOT a fan of Abraham having another wife... It was nevertheless commanded by God.
@XYU It is generally prohibited except when commanded by God. Abraham had multiple wives and king David even had many wives and concubines.
You make a mistake regarding the "different gospel." You need to go back and look at what the gospel really is, as spoken of in the Bible. This is the same gospel preached by Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well as the Book of Mormon.
What you are confusing is that the Apostles preached that you must believe and have faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized by immersion, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost continue to repent when you make a mistake. They taught that all of this proves that you would follow and accept Christ, who is the ONLY means by which we can be saved and forgiven of our sings.
Anybody who takes away or adds to this core doctrine, the gospel of Jesus Christ, you should be wary of. This is what is taught in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints... MANY of the Christian churches have taken away from this doctrines, therefore they have corrupted the gospel of Christ... Christ will judge them, however, not me.
What are you talking about?! It was not commanded by God! Read Genesis 16 and find me the commandment. Genesis 17 tells Abraham he was wrong- the seed of promise was to come through Sarah, and his belief that she could not produce the seed *was the whole reason he contracted the union with Hagar.* You need to do some basic fact checking of these claims, dude.
Fact check events that happened thousands of years ago? It’s so simple! Point being, he had another wife. Polygamy doesn’t happen among the righteous unless God commands it.
I reread those chapters. God does not say Abraham was wrong. God tells him “My covenant is with thee.” He also sends an angelic messenger to tell Hagar to go back to Sarai. Do you really think Abraham and Sarai hatched the scheme of a second wife on their own? Hagar was part of the plan, and part of the covenant.
@XYU First of all you don't understand what the word "gospel" entails, nor do you understand the scriptures that says "another gospel."
Second, polygamy was condoned and even commanded by God in the old Testament. There are also many things that were taught by Christ and His apostles at the temples that were never written in the Bible. So obviously there is more that was taught that we don't have. Many of those things were restored to Joseph Smith as a fulfillment of the "restitution of all things" as quoted by Paul.
The Book of Mormon supports the Bible incredibly well. There are many, many more people who are rejecting the Bible and Christ. The Book of Mormon was saved for our time to further convince the world of the Messiah. It teaches the same gospel as found in the Bible and complements it perfectly. Those who read it, along with the Bible will come closer to Christ. That is what we hope for all mankind... that they will come closer to the Savior. Isn't that something any "christian" would want?
@XYU And yet we have used the Bible to show you that polygamy was practiced in the Bible MANY times... but I guess you don't believe in the Bible?
Every Mormon man I ever met has the same scripted answer when asked about polygamy, “Well they practiced it in the Old Testament.” Um, ya… they practiced sacrificing lambs too, but we don’t do that anymore.
But we also have explanation as to why we don't sacrifice lambs, Jesus sacrificed himself.
@@RyanMercer - What’s the explanation for multiple wives in “modern” day time with LDS?
@@tcoladonato the Church doesn't practice living plural marriage any longer, as far as being sealed to one living woman and one or more deceased women - I imagine Heavenly Father will address that on the other side of the veil.
@@RyanMercer - I live in AZ, and AZ didn’t become a State until 2/14/1912, that’s late. The Federal Govt. told the Mormon settlers if they stopped practicing polygamy, they would bring them into statehood and give them rights and protection. Reluctantly, the Mormons agreed. But now you have the FLDS which believes they are the true church of Latter Day Saints. Being sealed to more than one woman is also an indication the LDS still believes in polygamy.
@@tcoladonato or is being sealed to your dead spouse just saying "hey, I'm not rejecting you just because you died"
Wow! How have I missed these? Nice work! We all squirm over this subject, and you just laid it all out there for us, complete with little snippets to keep my ADHD brain engaged. Would that the Church itself could see how much better this is than to proclaim, "thus saith the Lord!" before scampering back to hide and pretend all is well in Zion.
God never ordained a polygamist relationship. He might have permitted it due to his everlasting mercy, but never should it be known that he ordered such thing. God made Adam and Eve, not Adam, Eve, and Sarah. He did this so we could have an example to follow. And yes, God did order the killing of Abrahams son, but he did not permit him to go through with it.
We need to start reading God’s word and stop basing our faith off videos on UA-cam. That’s why God gave you a bible, to read it, and understand it through his Holy Spirit.
A little bit of lie, mixed in with a whole lot of truth, makes it all a lie.
Well.... Abraham, Jacob, and Moses practiced polygamy. So how come people don't condemn them like how they codemn Joseph smith?
The Fundamental Latter Day Saints are still polygamist living in Utah and their Zion is Missouri as well. Think about that one.
Theyre crazy zealots that want to be accepted and in doing so they live in Missouri. Thought concluded. Whats your point skippy?
Okay, I’m thinking about it now
@@ourlifeinwashington4114 The point, "skippy", is that the Mormons who were practicing polygamy and polyandry in Missouri in the 1800s were "crazy zealots" who are the ones responsible for inspiring those who are practicing polygamy today.
They aren't fundamentalists. POlygamy isn't a fundamental teaching of the church.
The point is not the polygamy. The point is all the Latter Day Saints (Mormon) and the Fundamental Latter Day Saints of Utah not ( Mormon) are all headed to Missouri for the apocalypse. Your neighbors will be China. They have millions invested in Missouri.
Great video! Thank you
This is one of the grossest apologetic videos I have watched.
Yes. yes and yes. It's disgusting.
Well haters gonna hate.
Our stay in Salt Lake City amounted to only two days, and therefore we had no time to make the customary inquisition into the workings of polygamy and get up the usual statistics and deductions preparatory to calling the attention of the nation at large once more to the matter.
I Was Touched
I had the will to do it. With the gushing self-sufficiency of youth I was feverish to plunge in headlong and achieve a great reform here-until I saw the Mormon women. Then I was touched. My heart was wiser than my head. It warmed toward these poor, ungainly and pathetically “homely” creatures, and as I turned to hide the generous moisture in my eyes, I said, “No-the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure-and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence.” ~Mark Twain
I adore Mark Twain. Ahhh the wisdom and insight... LOL!
Im inactive but I loved how you explain polygamy, very sincere, this issues were one of the reasons why I left the church, and everything you said was accurate, I hope that the church keeps getting better in being sincere and open about this topics so that is not as a taboo when we ask about this issues 👌, many members explain polygamy with explanations that are not backed up with the evidence, great job 🙌
Thanks! Yeah it's a tough issue all around. I wish (as I'm sure you do as well) that we had more information about it than we do.
I know women today , who worry about eternal polygamy and what their husbands might do after death while they’re temporally separated. Taking some as wives without their support (because their still on earth). How abhorrent!!! I know I don’t look at my husband the same way knowing i was roped into this $&@# show without my knowledge and consent.
The narrator was gas lighting the issue
God doesn't need polygamy to raise up seed he proved that with Adam and Eve, Noah, after devestating wars, in the early days of Christianity, etc. Never commanded or instituted polygamy and raised up seed just fine without it.
Emma was Joseph's only wife so her only struggle with polygamy was to counter the false accusations.
Thank you so much for your videos. My daughter just recently told me that she does not believe in the church anymore because she came to find out of the plural marriages that Joseph Smith had, including with a 14 year old. You explained it so well! I hope I can show this video to her and she is willing to watch it.
@@jonbaker476 literally all just hear say or flat out lies. No physical evidence (in the form of illegitimate children) that Joseph Smith did that. The "young man" you are referring to had committed an unlawful sexual act. Seeing as he wasn't married (having a fiance as you have pointed out) the only other unlawful sexual act would be rape. You are literally defending a rapist. The castration was not an act condoned by Brigham as they tried to have Bishop Snow arrested but politicians in DC told them to drop the matter. Castrating rapist's is something that is still done in some countries to this day so... Which story makes more sense historically?
You may want to listen to your daughter!! Turn to Christianity!
@@jonbaker476 I have read Helen Mar's journals and publications. Where did she say that? If you are going to make those kind of claims you need citations. My impression, along with many others including non-mormons is that her journal indicates the opposite of your assertions.
JS simply was a sexual predator and manipulative narcissistic man I don’t understand how that can be denied
These people want to believe so badly that they'll justify all sorts of horrid things. Just like any other cult.
The BOM condemns polygamy. Any member of the LDS church, including a prophet, who practices it should be excommunicated. Jesus had the final say on this in Matthew chapter 19.
Did you even listen to this video?
Polygamy in the OT is described, but not prescribed by God. Every example of polygamy in the OT is negative. It’s not a strong argument for polygamy.
The example of Ruth was the only one time that it wasn't abused, but implemented properly
Don’t like the way it makes you feel? Shelve it!
If believers of any holy books actually followed their (supposedly perfect) teachings, they'd either be in prison or the world would be in chaos.
The Bible never authorized the polygamy of Joseph Smith
He is exactly the kind of false prophet the Bible warns us to avoid
Thanks for the video - lots of good stuff as always. You said it ended formally in 1890???
But it didn't end in 1890. My 3rd great grandfather was a practicing polygamist until his death in 1923. He was a bishop in good standing.
Jason Exactly, I knew that- I was just seeing what their reply was going to be
@@TonyFieldson shoots I thought that’s what we’re doing in the temple now days, that if a mans wife dies, he can get sealed to another woman therefore “more than one wife”, in other words polygamy..... for the after life I guess? Yeah I say we’re still practicing polygamy.
God never commanded polygamy in the Bible.
He never commanded it but he never was against it either
Even if you are right regarding polygamy, there's still the issue of Joseph Smith marrying several pairs of sisters, which was prohibited by the Old Testament where the plural marriages are referenced. Whatever one's view of polygamy is the historical evidence about Smith suggests that he was a vile, nasty bastard
@@kevinevans8892 I don’t agree with the church or polygamy, but sisters were definitely married in the Bible. Jacob married Leah and Rachel.
Mother daughters might have been off limits though…
Polygamy is based, revoke women's rights
D&C was written after Joseph Smith was already practicing polygamy and upon his brother (Hyrum Smith) requested that Joseph receive a revelation that God commanded some LDS leaders to practice it. Hyrum S. Condemned the act until he learned that his brother Joseph was already engaged in the practice. BTW - Emma despised the institution of polygamy and had many “knock down, drag outs” with Joseph Smith over his involvement. Joseph Smith had over 30 wives before his death. Brigham Young had even more and took great pride in many of the young women he seduced into marriage as he grew older.
I did
I don't think God desired polygamy at all. He may have permitted it for the same reason he permitted divorce as Jesus states: due to hardness of heart. It wasn't that way in the beginning and that is often when I go to when I want to know God's ideal will. This is one of the few big reasons I doubt I will become an LDS. I don't think God ever instructed anyone to become a polygamist.
That's Abraham and Jacob you're talking about, though - men every prophet, and even Jesus himself, respected as righteous patriarchs of the Israelite people. There's no evidence at all that God considered them "hard-hearted".
Heck, he was willing to sacrifice his son - all God had to do was ask. Why wouldn't he obey if God said "just don't do the whole polygamy thing"? Your reasoning makes no sense.
@@Mr-Thou Respect doesn't mean they did everything right. I mean King David was respected as Israel's best king, but he was still an adulterer and murderer.
Funny that you should mention David. In 1 Kings 15:5, it is pointed out that his only mistake was the one adultery and the one murder. Therefore, his plural marriage was approved, not just allowed.
You're certainly allowed to hold your position on polygamy, but you've got to concede that there is nowhere at all in the Bible that states or implies polygamy was just "tolerared". All throughout the Old Testament, it is treated just like any other aspect of the life of Israelites.
@@Mr-Thou
And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Matthew 19:4-7 KJV
doesn't say 3 or more. It says twain, or two in modern parlance
@@edenicchristian335 All marriage, including plural marriage, is obviously ALWAYS between two people. Except modern polyamorous relationships, of course.
I don't think I agree that polygamy is unfair to women if women are volunteers for it (unlike what happens in FLDS). I was listening to a really interesting podcast that predicted it's return in the near future with the astronomical rise in competent women over less and less competent/educated men. With boys being degraded in the "name of feminism", we are seeing all women rise, but a polarization of men, with some being highly successful, and many more being unsuccessful. This is going to leave women with a choice between being the second or third partner of a man they respect, or the only partner of someone not good enough for them. I of course would prefer what I have (a monogamous relationship with a competent man) but if I was thrust back in the dating pool, I think I would prefer sharing a competent man over having some basement dweller to myself.
Practicing polygamy because you’re a king or someone of wealth is NOT the same as God approving polygamy... there’s a big difference here. Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham, not God. Re-read Genesis. God never approved this behavior even though it’s seen in almost all cultures, that doesn’t make it God approved. It shows the “natural man” who is an enemy to God...naturally follows physical desires which leads to sin which leads to spiritual death. This is the pattern you see throughout all the scriptures...Why is a Bishop, Elder or Deacon to have ONLY ONE WIFE? This is Biblical scripture, see 1st Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6 only one wife!!! Why would God tell Joseph Smith something different from what was taught in the New Testiment? ....I’m willing to “shelf it” isn’t a valid answer to something as doctrinal as polygamy. It’s required for the highest place in the celestial kingdom D & C 132. Are you willing to show the journal entries if the other girls married to Joseph Smith?..like Fanny Alger? The twins? the mother daughter?or the ones who suffered horrible anxiety and we’re probably damaged for life? Why would a man of God do this? Why would it be necessary or only a few years then all of the sudden, it’s taken away? Can you honestly answer these questions?
I don't know of anywhere in the bible that god encourages polygamy; let's call it plural marriage. I don't know anywhere in the bible where god condemns it either.
God does condemn Adultery though. I 'm not sure god really cares how many wives you have. The versus you mention in 1st Timothy and Titus; do not condemn plural marriage ether. These versus simply are requirements for those who hold positions in the Church. Maybe Paul thought that Bishops, Elders, and Decans, should have only one wife because it would have been impossible for them to preform their duties. You have to remember that back then it was common for families to follow the Patriarch when he traveled. This is still common today. They are called camp followers.
@@kennance115 "The versus you mention in 1st Timothy and Titus; do not condemn plural marriage ether. These versus simply are requirements for those who hold positions in the Church." ...OK, so, I agree with your comments for the most part. But, if the position of the LDS church is that they are organized like the same church from the day Jesus organized it, why then would there be a need for a church leader to have more than one wife?
…yes, exactly, I agree! It’s braking the first commandment, putting our sexual desires as our god. If we put God first or have no other gods before us other than Yahweh, then our sexual desire should not be primary.
People always believe that their imaginary friend (god) is telling them to do something, but it's really just a convenient justification for what people already want to do themselves.
That is a shallow understanding of faith. Do you think I don't want to have sex with my girlfriends? Do you think I don't want to flick the guy off that cut me off in traffic? Do you think I don't want to lie when I'm about to be busted for something? Living a life of faith is not an easy thing to do and many people fail because of what they "want to do themselves."
@@blusheep2 Do you do anything you need to be "busted" for? Sex before marriage is NOT a sin. A lot of what you would consider sin is what I consider to be doing wrong to others. I think it's wrong to hurt others, because I care about other people and don't want anyone to suffer, not because I'm afraid of "god" punishing me for committing a "sin". Its my caring and empathy, not my fear of imaginary deities, that keeps me from doing wrong things.
@@8698gil At points in my life I have. You can define sin however you want but that appears to conform to "what people already want to do themselves" better then how my worldview interacts with my behavior.
I am not afraid of God punishing me either. We have that in common.
The difference is that when you find yourself wanting something more then the power of your empathy towards others you are much more likely to give into your desire then your treatment of another.
But in the end, if you do good things then great. If your compassionate great. Do you feel better about yourself because of it?
I've watched most of your videos, and I think this is my favorite!!!! I love that you're not dodging the heavy topics. While I can't agree with some of the assertions (for example, there's no way that diary accounts of Joseph's "celestializing" with new brides under the cover of darkness don't refer to sex), I 100% agree that Mormon polygamy is complex, fascinating, and deserving of a deep dive! My interest first began with the "Year of Polygamy" podcast that gives a biographical history of each wife. Can't wait to hear your take!
Scheherazade because it makes him look worse.
Scheherazade That is something that couldn’t be confirmed. To my knowledge no one wrote about him showing off his diary. We could only assume he didn’t show of his diary, as many people keep it private. However, his and many other diaries were found and kept around for people to read today. Not sure what point you’re trying to make.
Part of the problem is that the church still believes in the practice today. They don’t practice it because it became outlawed in the US. The other part of the problem is that Joseph Smiths teaching about Polygamy ran directly against what Jesus Christ taught (One man and one woman becoming one flesh) Not one man and several women for time and/or all eternity.
Abraham not only practiced polygamy, he also had slaves. So that's ok too.
Yes but it wasn't based on racial bias. race based slavery wasn't "instituted" until the mid 1700's. So his "slaves" would've been more like servants.
Ann believes the world should be atheist because religious history is abhorrent. Her comment is snide. It's an overarching swipe at anyone who believes in God, or she's a hippocrate.
no
@@ClayCB
Why don't you address the comment to her?
BTW, it's a public comment form. Anyway can say what they want. I'm sure ppl don't like your comments either.
“Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.” Jacob 2:24. “David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; and in nothing did they sin save in those things which they received not of me.” Doctrine and Covenants 132:38. Gee, God sure loves changing his mind, huh?🤔
Hmm... you've conveniently left out the caveat a few verses later in Jacob 2:30, "For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things." More on the alleged contradiction here: bit.ly/2QZhU6l
@@thomaschoate976 Right. No disagreement there. I think this was something Joseph battled with greatly, seeing as how there is evidence of intimacy with many wives (not all of them), but no children from any of them. Avoiding intimacy, in my opinion, was one motivation behind his marriages to women that were already married and continued to live with their husbands. I covered that in the video, if I recall correctly.
Oh my heck. It's ridiculous to build the theological polygamy argument stating that Old Testament prophets are "major figures of Christianity" and that they did it God must have intended the practice to be restored. Have we not read the Old Testament lately? Thank heavens we do not live by the archaic practices documented in that book.
I served in my ward with an elder missionary who took a particular interest in Islam. They would always visit a Muslim priest who owned a small fast food restaurant in the area close to where the ward was located . He even accepted an English version of the Qur'an from the Muslim priest and read it on his mission. I guess he was having a crisis of faith since it was rumoured the old Joe Smith compared himself to prophet Muhammad and even borrowed some ideas from him including the color of the temple garments I.e green and white and of course polygamy which Muhammad claimed was a commandment from Allah.
I will not judge Abraham who was willing to sacrifice Isaac. I will not judge Jacob who The Lord called Israel that knew the value of a birthright from The Lord. Who The Lord made prosper when serving Laban. Who was obedient to The Lord in all his days. Nor will I judge Moses. A man who had a life of prosperity and a family before leaving Egypt and turning to The Lord. A man who The Lord described as "the meakest of men" and who served The Lord wandering in the wilderness for 40 years when a life of ease was his to lose. A man who suffered public persecution and harassment again and again. Why? For The Lord. Nor will I judge the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. All these men were polygamists. Yet I see no scripture from God calling anyone of these men to repentance for this action. Was Joseph perfect in following this commandment? I tell you he was not. Did he do it for lust? I tell you he did not. Did he do his best and put forth honest effort to obey all His God commanded him? I tell you he did! That is the only reason he had more than one wife. That is my testimony of the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr.
Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy, nor endorse it. In fact, the only records of his mentioning it that were released during his life all speak against it. The records that show he was pro-polygamy were all released after his death, and the ones from his personal journal, were clearly edited by someone with different handwriting, which can be seen on the Joseph Smith Papers website. The hard fact to swallow for many people is that Brigham Young was the mastermind behind polygamy. There is much evidence for this. And of the supposed wives, all of them made their claims after Joseph had died, and they were offered financial security in Utah for their testimonies. Meanwhile Emma Smith always said JS had no other wives, and JS said he had no other wives many times. He and Emma had nine kids together. Surely he would have had kids with other women if he had married them, especially with the high number of claimed wives. Yet there is no other offspring of Joseph Smith besides the children of Emma. He and his brother Hyrum spoke against it often, as did other church leaders such as Sydney Rigdon. Go read Brigham Youngs claims that Joseph taught it again, they always say that it was in a "secret meeting" and that nobody should know. There is so much evidence that it is hard to believe that the majority LDS members still believe JS was a polygamist. All it takes is a little research. So for the LDS members, trust me I know it's hard to change a belief that has been engrained in you since childhood, but the truth is there- remember even the disciples had to be taught truth contrary to what they believed. To the anti-Mormons, sorry but the argument that Joseph Smith is a false prophet because of polygamy does not stand. I've read the Book of Mormon and it clearly teaches that polygamy is a sin, and JS did not practice it. The three volumes of "Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy" are good places to start for reading. But if you are not much of a reader, I will direct you to a video made by an LDS member. God bless everyone and your search for truth. ua-cam.com/video/F5heXE5xS5w/v-deo.html
Thank you for your post. Sad that there are so many people, especially church members, willing to spread lies without ever having taken the time to research or fact check. Thankfully over the last 5 years I have come across more and more people who have taken the time to do so and discovered the truth. In the end truth will prevail.
@@nostoppingit7827 Amen brother/sister. It is difficult to change your beliefs on something that you have grown up believing. I myself had the luxury of growing up outside of the LDS and was shown the how the lies were fabricated several years ago (although it did hold me back from other truths that the LDS believes which I have only recently discovered to be true). But I agree, more and more LDS members are realizing that there are several claims of early Utah Mormon leaders that don't line up with each other, or the things that Joseph taught, and praise God for that. I pray that His truth continues to go forth to all who will hear, and that we may be willing to listen and drop any false traditions that do not align.
Alright, but isn't the idea that Brigham Young, the man BYU is named for, could be a false prophet and a liar also potentially damning the LDS? Or do you propose to follow Joseph only, and not the prophets that followed?
@@josephcowan6779 exactly, Brigham Young and all the presidents after him were not true prophets, no matter how many school are named for them.
God did not endorse polygamy however which is the crux of it.
Thank you for going at this head on. Really looking forward to next week's video. Happy to see Brother Smoot is watching :)
I am watching.
This is WRONG through and through! The Lord never commanded this. Period.
Why is it a thing in the OT then?
Polygamy is literally codified in the law of Moses. Youre not being honest
Polygamy was allowed by God in the days of the ancient Hebrews (possibly to increase their numbers), but during the implementation of Christianity, the elders were commanded to have only one wife. Christianity usurped Judaism as now the newly approved religion
About an Angel threatining him with sword, the bible says : 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1.8.
Parabéns pela escolha de conteúdos e honestidade e sinceridade no vídeo!
This would've been even more effective if you played the Law and Order sound effect every time you said the word polygamy!
Dang it. Too little, too late.
David Snell you’re slipping man! 😅
Once you've been witnessed to of truth. All you hear is Isaiah 55:8-11
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
This used to bug me and I couldn't get a grip on it. It's funny how this doesn't bother me anymore. Once the Holy Ghost witnessed to me of the truth of The Book of Mormon, this doesn't even phase me anymore.
"Polygamy is gross and we totally don't do that anymore." That is the WORST defense of Polygamy ever. Joseph Smith was a polygamist and a "prophet", same with Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, Lorenzo Snow, Joseph F Smith and Heber Grant. Whew. That is a long list of "prophets" doing this totally gross thing that we totally don't do anymore. Heber Grant died in 1945! Mormons like to make Polygamy sound like it was practiced in their distant past, when Society was COMPLETELY different to the Modern Day, and yet, their prophet was a polygamist all the way up to the end of the Second World War.
My dad pointed out that if Joseph Smith was really just trying to sleep around, it would've been a lot simpler to just go to brothels rather than start a whole religion, especially since it actively got him persecuted.
That's generally what creepy men do when they're addicted to such things.
I tell talk about self scarifice...that joesph really was a holh man, he didnt want to sleep w all these women, no it was horrible, but he did it for God?
This is self delusion at its best, joseph was a liar and a con man.
Look Jesus came, he paid the price for all our sins.
God has provided us a revelation of who He is and what He wants. Faith in Christ saves us.
He is more than able to preserve His Word for us and He has.
WAKE UP