Edelgard + Lelouch: The Cost Of Ideals
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2020
- A video analysis Edelgard and Lelouch from Fire Emblem and Code Geass. A look into how they are similar in ideology and what their revolutions cost them.
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it's funny how despite having similar mindsets, lelouch gets remembered as one of the greatest anime characters and edelgard is still a really controversial character among the fanbase.
My theory is that it’s made clear by the series that Lelouch is morally questionable. It’s not left up to the viewer, and we all know that his actions are grey.
Edelgard, on the other hand, is strictly good or bad depending on which route you take. The way she’s portrayed in the other 3 routes compared to her own, can really shape someone’s opinion of her, according to whichever one you played first.
Idk, just my thoughts on the matter
@@Mmmkaramel I think it could also be that a lot of people don't like female characters that are either harsh, blunt or just morally grey.
Look at Arvis from FE4 for example, he's even more morally questionable than Edelgard, and yet he's one of the most beloved FE4 characters.
@@GaeaRage0798 oh that makes sense, people do tend to judge female characters a lot more harshly
@@GaeaRage0798 honestly, this. Sigurd, Alm, and Ephraim are just as flawed characters as Michiah, Celeca, Erika, and Edelgard- and the latter four are incredibly well written with their flaws often better portrayed, but all of them are extremely controversial in the community- and genuinely the only thing they have in common is that they are women. The only woman lord that Western FE fans like is Lyn and she literally does nothing but nod along with Eliwood and Hector the whole story for the actual main plot of the game.
@@GaeaRage0798 I think it’s the other way around, honestly. If Edelgard and Kostas swapped appearances, I don’t think as many people would support her/him.
There's something that I don't know if will be true, but would make edelgard's story even more tragic in azure moon, which is that she might have purposefully missed his attack and gone for the shoulder instead of the heart in order to force Dimitri to kill her, because she couldn't live with her failure, because it would mean that all the blood on her hands was for nothing, that she would still be haunted by the deaths of her family, and the deaths of all his friends from the crimson eagles. That she would've been doing the agarthan's bidding for nothing.
It's heavily implied from dialogue she has with the player/Dimitri that it's either they succeed in stopping her (killing her) or she succeeds in conquering Fodlan there would never be a compromise. I do agree that Edelgard forced Dimitri to kill her not only because she couldn't live with her failure but also knowing the war would probably still continue on unless she died leaving Dimitri as the true ruler of Fodlan.
Wow, I am amazed at how you actually turned that mistranslated line Edelgard said to Dimitri about being a highborn into something that supported your point.
Also, if you see Edelgard's C support with Dorothea, during Part 2 of CF, you'd see that Edelgard also says something similar about how history may or may not look kindly at her.
Edelgard is completely aware that history might see her as a villain or a hero, but she doesn't care either way, because she has beliefs that she has to see through, even if others despise her for it.
Definitely one of the better Edelgard-takes I've seen on youtube, thank you. I hope IS isn't afraid to use antagonistic protagonists in future FE-games again and I'm very thankfull to Koei Tecmo for fighting for Crimson Flower and flashing out Edelgard's character.
Now if only they could finish the Damn route
Isn't a antagonistic / protagonists doesn't work since Antagonist is like... you know the enemie of the protagonist?
Just asking am not great in english But I tought it was the enemie of the protagonist... What would be a better way of saying it would be a actor someone that make the frist move to change something (useally those are the "vilain" for what that worth) but yah I don't know the exact word but the character that force the change in the intro....
You know the character that make the element declencheur in the story.
I think that what you mean any way.
Insteed of a reactionary protagonist you want more Active protagonist.
SORRY FOR THE BAD ENGLISH like I said I could be wrong on the wording but yah I would agree I would like more Active protagonist (tho they are harder to make because useally the character doing the Active work is the "antagonist".)
@@charleouel9012 The defining feature of an antagonist is simply that the oppose the protagonists trying to reach their goal. Usually the protagonist is "the good guy" and the antagonist is "the bad guy" but the roles can absolutely be reversed or neither party are good or bad and there just multiple sides with different agendas.
@@SophiaLilithUwU Yah so each lord in that game is a protagonist and an antagonist at the same time than?
@@charleouel9012 Essentially, yeah.
Really interesting video. The fear of bloodshed and warfare is, quite understandably, ingrained in us, which is why I think people find Edelgard (in particular) so hard to accept. But neither Code Geass or Three Houses depict normal circumstances, and they're characters that can only really exist in those circumstances. 'What if there was another way?' What if there isn't?
The thing is...our history had warfare and loss of life ever since the very beginning.
And while war is the shittiest thing in existence we cannot ignore the fact that is possible and that it still happens. How many wars and conflicts are nowadays in the world? How many of them are driven by greed, malice or downright indiscriminate hatred? Too many.
Even Edelgard hates war but has very few viable options to realize her ideals, not for herself but for Fodlan in general and thus steels herself to move forward with it. Add the fact that she faces adversity left and right even before her war started and you can understand why she is justified in her decision. If she had a better alternative, shewould've took it already.
And even if the price is the blood of others, she cannot turn back. But more important than that is she wants the sacrifice of her siblings matter in a world where crests are obsolete and that she, herself didnt feel like she has a place to belong in this world, changed or not and that her own life matters little compared to her ambition.
If anything, that makes her a tragic martyr figure.
@@v.emiltheii-nd.8094 "she has few other options" that's hilarious. You explore any other routes or even supports with characters like Hanneman and you see there were plenty of ways to settle it w/o starting a full on war. Rhea hates crests just as much as she does potentially more but considered hiding the truth about them a necessity to prevent people from genociding the descendants of the elites. The church also... ngl doesn't really feel evil in any way. Imperfect but certainly not evil. Not to mention Edelgard says things that are factually incorrect in her speech. When in every single route the crest system is abolished and Edelgard's system literally PROMOTES THE VERY TRAGEDY SHE SUFFERS FROM
This was why i liked Edelgard, she saw a flawed system and a corrupt hierarchy and knew that becoming monster was necessary to change things. "Sometimes what the world needs is a monster."
Edelgard isn't a monster
Not to those who understand her and her motives but to anyone else she would be deemed so
@@haydenbennett3547 same could be said of Rhea.
Except this world didnt need one, nor the war, it needed slow gradual change that the people and culture can adjust to over time, Edelgards war was esentially meaningless because it will result in the same system and flaws just under different names. Her meritocracy is ridiculous plan and she will never even live to see any of it come to fruition, the system will be just as easy if not easier to game by the greedy and powerful. All she did was break the status quo and replace it with a different one, because the church wasnt the issue, human nature is.
Not to mention that Edelgard herself and her ideals are so flawed and hypocritical that I dont really believe she actually stood behind them, they were simply the only thing she really had left to think and dedicate her life to, because her upringing didnt leave her with much of a choice in anything else. The messiah complex on this girl is only equaled by her damage. She needed help, not an army, much less a position of power.
@@KaiSaeren The issue with Fodlan is that the continent was rotten in the core. It's not something external that people can fight for like another nation or an evil bad guy but internal. The things that plagued Fodlan were all internal and the people of Fodlan clung to the status quo. Fodlan saw crests as nothing but king and what that created was a group of people who only valued crests as a status symbol, discarding those who did not have crests. Hannerman's Sister, Slyvain, Mikhail who is Slyvain's brother and Dorothea are some of the characters we know that have been made victims of this system as a result.
Sure will her system be something similar to what Fodlan experiences with the crest system and the church? Sure but at the same time, it also gives people the chance to actually make change. You don't get to magically have your cake and eat it when you get what you want. you have to work for it. Edelgard is giving both commoner and noble a chance to make Fodlan into what they want. Not be tied down to religious dogma and the past but create the future they want. She will have to work to ensure that such a system doesn't crumble but she was ready to do such a thing in the first place.
Finally Edelgard herself just wants to live a normal life at the end of the day. She is in fact just a girl. A girl whose father was made into a subserviant puppet and lost her siblings in the process. Such a process, such a betrayal makes Edelgard put up walls to ensure that they never happen again to her. She has lost everything and while she retains her power, she cannot regain the normality of life a little girl deserves. You are right in saying she needed help but what kind of help would actually help her in this case? Everything that she believed in betrayed her and the people she could go to help are nothing but traitors in her eyes. She became resolute and determined to see change happen in Fodlan, even if she is labeled nothing but a tyrant in the history books.
Amazing video. Genuinely the only Edelgard take on youtube that has any real nuance or thought put into it.
Ikr. A large majority of the comments are either full of hate or full of love for edelgard, without trying to see that she's neither entirely righteous or entirely evil.
And that sometimes, circumstances forces you to do things you revile and make you hate yourself.
Edelgard and Lelouch are truely kindred spirits in that regard.
I dunno. BOOFIRE191 has some decent takes.
Ghast's new analysis video is pretty good too. In my opinion, her storyline could have been Lelouch level, but the cut corners and the lack of focus on what consequences and side-effects her actions had on her own psyche made her arc not be anywhere near as powerful for me as was Lelouch's.
Obviously, she knows her actions will be seen as immoral, yet she can't back down, on the other end, I think the game doesn't spend as much time as it could on showing the consequences of her actions on her mind, something which Code Geass does spectacularly. Lelouch gets beaten down over and over and over, yet always goes back to his goals or even changes the approach while keeping the same mindset.
Edelgard seems mostly unfazed about what she's doing until she kills Dimitri, and the scene isn't even long enough to humanize her a bit. I know she does that to herself, but having had some more "humanization" she would have been less controversial IMO. Lelouch does things just as immoral if not worse, but most people love the character. I also think they should have portrayed more how disgusted Edelgard was with the TWSITD being her allies, using demonic beasts left and right.
I always wondered why the game did not show the usage of demonic beasts from the empire side on CF, since they clearly used many of them in all the other routes.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255On the last point, the likeliest explanation is that it's for the same reason that Hubert's paralogue is about culling them; on CF, she's NOT making use of the resources of the Agarthans, because she actually believes that her friends can and will support her if she fights her war more cleanly.
Though of course, she still has Aymr... she's never completely morally spotless. She wouldn't be the same character if she was. But a version of Edelgard who had someone reach out to her and trust her even though she herself does not believe she's worth the effort is a very different individual with a half-decade of time to reflect upon that lesson.
Since I played Dynasty Warriors and found out that Three Houses is made by the same producer as Dynasty Warriors (KOEI-TEMCO), I saw Edelgard as Cao Cao, both having ambition for a better world and willing to be portrayed as a villain to achieve their goal of unification. Three Houses, Three Kingdoms.
She could also be the Oda Nobunaga of Three Houses.
Hahahahaha no. That’s for the folks who don’t understand 3K or 3H at all. Cao Cao was very much a Dimitri but wayy smarter. Cao Cao was the most prominent protector of the old nominal ruler of his time who struggled to think of destroying the former dynasty’s reign because of the ramifications it would bring forward. Had the church of Seiros had any sort of “supreme power” as Edelgard seemed to believe, her “revolutions” only existed in a vacuum.
@@fyncheniteO What? It's pretty clear-cut that the Empire is Wei, the Kingdom is Shu, the Alliance is Wu, and the Church is the Han dynasty. There's literally no resemblance between Dimitri and Cao Cao (both the in the Record of the Three Kingdoms and Romance of the Three Kingdoms).
@@exu7325 “Han is the church” yet Empire is Wei....Yeah, despite Cao Cao worked the closest to Han imperial court among three main lords and was very reluctant to usurp Han despite the majority of his vassals wanted him to. Han imperial court had lost its sovereignty and prestige *before* Cao Cao rose to power (in fact Cao Cao gained his first sign of authority among warlords by rescuing the emperor) , and he tried to preserve its existence without granting it any more power, which was closer to Dimitri’s stance on the church. And Cao Cao and Dimitri had very similar psychological makeup, both very melancholic and very maniacal at times. He’s the only one among the three main lords who’s never an emperor once in his life. Even Cao Pi usurped Han in a more or less Rhea kind of fashion: he didn’t care much for the *supreme power* as an emperor, he enthroned himself because he couldn’t guarantee more power to his vassals otherwise and he needed to survive.
If you’re going by the shallow take that “but Wei is the imperialist one”, all three of the main lords were “imperialist” by that definition because all of them had an ultimate goal of unifying China under one control. Because that’s the perceived norm at the time, unlike most Fodlanders recognize that there ought to be three sovereign nations. Wei was only more powerful because of better luck and strategies.
You really got to take 3H and 3K at their face values to recognize the Empire as Wei.
Words cannot express how much I love what was said in this video. Edelgard is my favorite 3H house leader as I found her character and story just oh so intriguing. It says a lot when there are several takes and discussions on her ambitions and goals, whether she was justified or not, etc. etc.
The similarities to Leouch never crossed my mind until more people pointed it out, which only made my enjoyment for Edelgard increase considering how much I loved Code Geass in my younger years. Those two really are alike, and the same can be said for the people around them (like Dimitri and Suzaku).
It’s like you took the concepts I had in my mind with all these parallels between Lelouch and Edelgard and just presented it in one amazing video.
Awesome work man.
Thats what makes them so good for a series overall genuine and character development, the anti hero mc a character is hard to portray and execute, I think both characters did well, they are cynical characters where they know the cost of ideals which resonates among viewers at some point
Code Geass is my favorite anime, but I haven’t played FF3H yet. So I’ll just add this to my watch later playlist to avoid spoilers. Hopefully I’ll start playing the game soon.
Dew it!
It's an absolute must play of the switch, mate.
Especially for the writing and development of the characters. All the MC are neither entirely righteous or entirely evil, but walks a thin line between the 2.
Truely one of the best fire emblem there is !
For anyone who’s watched the movie, you could shorten it to El and L.L 😂
Lmao you killed me with that comment. 💜
i'd like to posit that instead of Dimitri, Schneizel is Khalid. KHALID is the one rooted in the present, while Dimitri is bound to the past, and like Suzaku allies with Charles, Dimitri allies with Rhea, who is also bound to the past. Code Geass just provides an AU where Dimitri could work with edelgard for the future in the end ahah
this is covered in beautiful detail in what i consider to be THE definitive FE3H fanfiction:
archiveofourown.org/works/22008655/chapters/52520158
(After their deaths, Sothis reaches through time to invite each of the three who tried and failed to claim the crown of Fodlan to her tea party.)
just wanted to add bc im watching this for the second time, the editing is incredible on this video, from visuals to music. i could rewatch certain sections over and over
WTF is KHALID?
@@M12GProductions Claude’s name
@@Togekab00m Holy shit it's good. I love the language composition. The natural flow preserves the fresh pain of Dimitri's trauma. Story aside, the language is extremely well structured. Even better than most novels of today.
I saw Subtitled anime, Edelgard, and Lelouch...I click
"That's for history to decide."
This is overall why I believe that Rhea is ultimately in the wrong. Rhea's actions and continued actions over the millennia has become part of history. And thus, the Fodlan that she brought forth became a rotten society that has widespread corruption among the nobility, racism, obsession over Crests, and ultimately allowed the Agarthans to cause massive problems in society. The Fodlan that Rhea placed under her doctrine as the victor ultimately resulted in the serious problems of society that we see in the present day of 3H and it's bad.
I think part of the problem with Rhea's society is that it is a system made by an immortal for mortals. The system we see in game was made over a thousand years ago, with the express intent of keeping the peace after the war with Nemesis and his followers and to make sure the tragedy of the Red Canyon would never be repeated. At the time, the system probably worked pretty well. However, in the present it is the clear the system is cracking at an immense rate and probably the main reason it lasted as long as it did was due to the Church's deeply established power and the archbishop's influence. Rhea never considered overhauling or making significant changes to the system as events changed Fodlan, keeping things in stasis until she can resurrect her mother which in her mind will fix everything and things will return to what was before. She does not comprehend that the world now is different from the world she knew: people have changed, loyalties have changed, class tensions are on the rise, the utter corruption of the nobility, the dwindling of Crests. And the world she knew cannot be brought back.
Another problem with Rhea that I don't see people really talk about is her inability to see her own actions might have been wrong and that her enemies might have legitimate points about what she's done. She believes that what she has done is perfectly justified in the name of the Goddess and she does not see her enemies as people, but as heretics to be crushed. It's clear that what happened in Zanado scarred her so much emotionally, mentally, psychologically, that she was probably the last person that should have been put in power over the continent, let alone keep it for as long as she did.
Rhea and Dimitri are very similar in the way of their minds being stuck in the past and snapping the moment someone close to then turns into an enemy. Hundreds of people dying before their eyes in one fell swoop is one thing, but when Byleth/Edelgard is an enemy in their eyes, thats the straw that breaks the camel's back and lets all their anger and hatred out that had been surpressed for years. It is only when Byleth is with them that they are able to release the shackles of their own mind and move forwars.
The funny thing is that this also counts fot Edelgard. Losing her family by the hands of Slither and being experimented on as well warped her into their ultimate weapon and only with Byleth is she able to let that too and move towards the figure.
FUCKING THIS I CPULD NOT AHVE SAID IT BETTER
@@hornetsilksong I agree but the main issue I have with a little guard is that she is operating on incomplete and heavily biased information. The broad strokes are correct but the devil is in the details, and unfortunately Edelgard has too many of those details wrong.
@@grigori9061 we... do not actually know this for sure. RHEA'S perspective on the war of the heroes makes it clear Edelgard didn't have the whole picture... but then again, why did she keep the elites as heroes in the memories of people? why enshrine the butchered remains of her people as sacred relics? An interview with the devs made it clear she did these things as a bitter compromise to keep the peace -- meaning that for his slaughter of the Nabateans, Nemesis WAS seen as a hero by many, enough so that to deny it and paint him as a murderous bandit would unsettle the peace in fodlan once again.
Why would so many consider a butcher to be a hero? Why would Wilhelm Hresvesvelg I likewise keep this history intact in his own secret oral history, passed down to Edelgard? It ought to give one pause that an ally of Seiros would look at Rhea's actions and choose to keep his children in on the fact that, TO HIS EYES... Nemesis was ultimately the true liberator. Even if we never know what happened, the history of Nemesis and the Nabateans is far more complex than Rhea would admit.
My wife introduced me to Code Geass (and I loved it) meanwhile I run around trying to convince people that Three Houses is the Switch's sleeper hit and probably its second best game. Guess this video was made for me. : )
This video is so underrated. You combined 2 of my most favorite things in media and made them into an interesting video. Good job!
Suzaku and Dimitri chose the path where the fruits of their labor be apparent until long after their bones have turned to dust
An excellent video, you very much captured all of the things I love about Code Geass/Lelouch and Three Houses' Crimson Flower/Edelgard. Thank you for your essay. You've done them both so much credit.
AYYYYYY I WAS WAITING FOR THIS FOR SO LONG!
It was great, the only thing that surprised me was that you didn't use Lelouch's final line from the show in your ending "I destroy the world...and create it...anew." (though I felt like your final shot more or less directly alluded to it so it certainly wasn't necessary!). You made a great point regarding how in their desire to tear down systems, the epilogues of both stories show that those systems very much remained in tact - to a degree in Resurrection where Lelouch is now invading a country that refused to join the in-universe United Nations.
Beautiful video. I believe in Edelgards ideals, but feel like a lot of her fans kinda miss the point and try to ignore or downplay the many lives her actions cost. Yes, she's right, and yes, she has a huge amount of blood on her hands, but that's the beauty of it.
pausei144 there is alot nuance in what she does, its not right to ignore her wat crimes but you have to look at her as a whole
Yeah, even though her route leads to far less deaths by a large margin. In the end she and Byleth are responsible for the deaths that the war caused. It gives it a interesting shift where in other routes you play as a hero who accepts his/her destiny and becomes a god by the end of it, in CF you side with the agressors and are more of an anti-hero who chooses their own destiny and due to those actions others see as evil but you end up with the best present out of all routes.
It's a shame CF was poorly done, it had great potential...
@@kalicula7718 I think a lot of people dislike Edelgard simply because she took action first. Most heroes have something terrible happen to them first that justifies all the pain they cause later. Edelgard breaks that mold, so people consider her the villain even though who struck first really shouldn't matter in the face of justice.
@@pausei1449 yes, it's funny some say Edelgard will always lose, however because of her actions the world becomes far better place regardless of the route you take.
@@subtitledanime i think you dont know what war crimes are, starting a war isnt a crime you know
Damn , i have to admit that this videos definitely change something for me on how i views edelgard.
This honestly means alot thank you
Current watching the video and it is really good.
However, I need to say two thing.
First is your point at 9:15. About Edelgard being highborn might be wrong or rather has some detail wrong . As Edelgard line of "I doubt a highborn person like yourself could know how the poor feel or what motivates them." Isn't a one to one with Edelgard JP/ Original line.
Her original line translated is "Someone who was fortunate enough like you to have those things, will never understand those of us who don't".
The original line has nothing to Dimitri being highborn or social status. But instead referring to Edelgard inherent loneliness and the fact that unlike Dimitri who always had people around him (E.g after the Tragedy of Duscur, he basically had another father in Rodrigue as well having his childhood friends be at his side, he had people. ) Edelgard had no one, her father became a husk of his former self. Hubert, due to feeling like he failed Edelgard. He failed his one job in life. As a result, while Hubert made sure to protect her physical. What she needed help with was her mental state, she need a friend. ( To further note, in the JP version its more hinted that Edelgard has mental health issues but also the fact that she used to be religious. To the point of being religious like Lonato. )
With TWSITD alliance, Its debatable whether or not she had a choice or rather chosen to ally herself with them on her own accord. Since due to the insurrection of the seven, while she had no power. TWSITD had gain most of the power over the empire. Through control the prime minister. Thus TWSITD is basically holding everyone in the empire hostage. ( This idea of thinking is backed up when you realise most of TWSITD action in part 1. Happens to take place empire territory. I could further with this point, though people on reddit. Have explained it better.) In many way, Edelgard is forced to ally herself with them
Its not really up for debate edelgard is basically forced to work with them she has no power to herself to get anything done without them and even after becoming emporer they still prove to have power over them which is why edelgard was relived Dimitri killed Arundel so she wouldn't have to worry about him there's a clear power dynamic that people choose to ignore because " oh she's working for the bad guys so ages evil " because nuance doesn't exist to these people
that one black dude I fully agree on your point.
I only put debatable because of the fact that while Edelgard had no power and was basically a hostage. She made a plan that was around the fact that’s she had to work with them.
Best way to put it. She was making the most out of her very crap situation.
@@lukestarford7608 pretty much her only option yea
By mental illnesses do you mean C PTSD?
I don't think the original meaning is lost in that translation.. Because I don't think that Edelgard has any power, I think she understands what motivates the poor, how they feel about about government, and the desire to have a say in things
This was awesome Gianni, so compelling to watch from minute one to minute 18
This is an incredibly good vid. I actually find Edel/Dimi to be much better written versions of the tropes/archetypes found in the Code Geass duo (I mostly blame this on s2's writing), but I can certainly see the comparisons with this vid.
One slight thing I'd maybe want to point out is that at 9:15, I feel Dimitri does understand how the poor feel. This info is kind of hidden away behind the "request minigame", but he lived in the slums for 5 years and was homeless. Other than that nitpick though, excellent video.
I'd say Code Geass does a way better job at making Lelouch feel human, often Edelgard didn't seem like she experienced much mental consequences for her goals.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 Yeah ok that's fair. I do think they make Edel feel more human, but it's often locked behind specific supports or stuff that's not even in her own route.
these parallels are amazing. i've played all the routes except the church route but have spoiled the details for myself. code geass is my TOP favorite anime. i cannot believe i did not see these parallels before. i agree that their ideals are part of their philosophy... it really says something that both edelgard and lelouch are willing to die for their cause, yet we still don't really know if it was the "right" thing. this was a wonderful analysis!!
two of my favorite character's in one great video have my like
omggg this comparison!!!! i haven't started the video yet but look forward to it rn!!!
Oh my god subscribed.. the parallels were amazing
I like the opening of this video so much, one of my personal favorites is gurren lagann and how that show very similarly forces the characters into rationalizations about the war they fought for their freedoms and the coming hardships they face now directly because they choose themselves over the beastmen. And how that contextualizes the entire first season in a different way. The cost of ideals. Very strong analysis.
nice video! Not sure I agree with your Dimitri/Suzaku comparison, but I definitely think the rest is very well composed.
BEAUTIFUL FREAKING VIDEO DUDE
How does this only have 39K views?? Seriously underrated,,, like you spitting all the right fax fr fr
Lelouch became evil to defeat the greater evil then sacrificed himself to end the cycle
Edelgard started a revolution to fix injustices she perceived staining her hands with evil and continuing to perpetuate the bloody cycle, how long till someone will attempt to overthrow her regime for whatever imperfection they see... how many uprisings will she have to put down to secure "peace"
I think they have similar ideologies but with an ideology like this, how intelligent you are means everything... Lelouch was a brilliant mind that played the world like a chess board... Edelgard was a fool, simply a pawn in the Agarthan's game, falling for their own propaganda despite them being the ones that killed her family hook line and sinker
I agree with this sentiment. Code Geass establishes how Lelouch intended for the leadership to be continued after his death. The leaders he puts in there have a chance to sway the hearts of people and support them instead of other elites.
3H has not established Edelgard to be this thorough. We do not see how she handles either the Agarthans nor whether she can even control her own corrupt nobility. Maybe if the game did a better job showing these things, I could have seen them in a similar light.
Excellent points and criminally underrated video. As someone who has sunk >500 hours into Three Houses and watched Code Geass dozens of times, I have no idea why this is the first time I'm seeing this video lol
Setteth: byleth the empire is evil!!
Byleth: from my point of view the church is evil
Setteth: WELL THEN YOU ARE LOST!!
Byleth: Quite the contrary, I'VE FOUND MY TRUE HOME!
(Byleth's humanity is restored only in Crimson Flower)
@@maxrichards3881 No, Byleth’s Mortality is restored in Crimson Flower, Byleth always had his Humanity, otherwise all of Byleth’s dialogue options would be robotic.
The empire is aligned with people who kidnapped Flayn, who Seteth sees as his only purpose for living.
For how much Edelgard defenders want detractors to understand her (and rightfully so), they don't seem to understand her opponents.
@@YesmanForNamsey In Three Hopes that doesn't happen, but Seteth still strongly opposes to Edelgard.
@@deckardshaw6696she declared war on them out of nowhere without any dialogue.
The way I read Edelgard's story is that she intends to abolish the empire but won't do it outright. That's how I read her line of finding a successor at the Goddess Tower. The idea that Edelgard would as Emperor start creating a new political system that would eventually allow her to relinquish all power and hand it over to others.
Sadly this is all just headcanon because Crimson Flower is not finished, but I still think it would align with how CF Edelgard was written
Similarly, I think that Lelouch trusted in Nunnaly and Suzaku to free the world of the Empire after his death. His plan was to conquer the world as an absolute dictator so he couldn't exactly at the same time give away power to the people. So I believe he trusted Suzaku's conviction in systems and Nunnaly's desire for a peaceful world to shape a new and better one from within, now that the external battle was over.
Also, he did make every country ratify the UFN charter, which means that after his death Britania would've been able to do what he was asked to (let the colonial areas secede) and still be tied to a larger democratic power.
This isn't to say that I agree with those ideas. I don't. But I do think that working in such a way, fighting your way to the top and then using this position to redistribute and abolish power, does fit these characters and their ways of thinking.
her stepping down might actually point more towards her thinking her lifespan is shortened like Lysithea's
@@GigasGalvantula Regardless she intends to give up the throne before she dies (and from the sounds of it give it up to someone who isn't in line for the throne, i.e. someone outside the royal family) while most monarchs rule until death (though I guess the only other reference point we have for the Adrestian Empire (iirc) is her father who also gave up the throne right before dying)
Great video, i might not understand, but great effort !
My rebuttal to this argument is Edelgard's desire for change bc she believes that Rhea and the Church are responsible for holding society back.
HOWEVER, there was evidence that TWISTD would always meddle whenever change were to happen. The insurrection of seven might not have happened as severe as it did if not for the Agarthan backing and Edelgard's father might have pushed for more reforms if he was successful in consolidating power (or worse, its not specific why he wanted more power)
Lambert was shown to be a radical ruler, willing to negotiate with Duscur for peace and had many radical policies (what specifically is unknown, but it was enough to cause more conservative nobles to ally themselves with TWSITD).
Duke Riegan's son was killed by Count Gloucester and the use of demonic beasts, which could have only been supplied by one organization...
It's not to say that Rhea didn't do a horribly mismanaged job with ruling Fodlan, but to place the blame squarely on her seems like such a black and white thing to do, especially since Rhea herself didn't seem to promote racism (she's accepting of Shamir and Cyril), crest superiority (one of the tenets of the Church of Seiros specifically says that those with crests are not to abuse their powers), or hold back society techwise (despite the hidden sewer library saying she banned autopsy, oil/gunpowder, printing press, and made Fodlanders think the earth is flat, we have a anatomical mannequins in Manuela's office, gambit use some form of explosive stored in barrels, books are affordable and common enough for Seteth and Bernie to self publish and for Hilda to lose a few of them without much consequence, and the regular library has a freaking GLOBE in it.)
Given that the Church has the least amount of influence in the Empire (there is no church branch in the Empire, all religious related governing is deferred to House Varley), and yet the Empire remains the most corrupted territory in all of Fodlan, I feel like at some point, the buck stops there.
There's a blurred line between how much of what's wrong with Fodlan is Rhea's fault and how much of it was TWSITD's fault/general human greed.
You also have to add in how much influence and power Rhea actually has in Fodlan. As much as she is revered, many nobles turn traitor at the drop of a hat (Rowe, Gloucester, Ordelia) and Lorenz even comments that most people worship as part of going through the motions aside from actually being devote. The Knights of Seiros, while strong and elite group of knights, do not have enough forces to contend with an entire nation. Rhea herself usually does not interfere with countries policies such as Lambert's negotiations or Ionius' ploy for power, and only steps in when it is demanded of her (to keep peace post Duscur or something ceremonial like crowning the next Emperor, which doesn't even require her and any church official would do.) She's mostly at Garreg Mach, running a school and giving out missions that ranges from community service (routing bandits) to related to the Church (anything involving relics, or rebellion from another church branch like the western church).
👍🏿
Sounding like a dirty rebel sympathiser, bow before the Empire you lizard lover
I think this is more a rebuttal of whether she did the right thing, rather than if she’s like Lelouch.
Otherwise, I quite like it! It’s an interesting counter take!
THIS IS MY EXACT POINT WHENEVER THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DISCUSS ANYTHING BAD ABOUT RHEA
They just throw too much stuff at Rhea’s feat and let humans take zero blame.
Claude is upset that fodlan is isolated from Almyra? Maybe the Almyran king should take responsibility and stop letting his people attack Fodlan for shits and giggles.
E
I would have loved to see the kind of world Claude and Edelgard could have created together, he also hates the system and the church, considering his upbringing and growing up in Almyra without the Church. He just lacked Edelgards conviction and willingness to die, he would rather use others. I truly think Claude could have benefitted from working with her, and Edelgard from him too.
Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes spoilers for Golden Wildfire route:
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They did exactly what you suggested. Claude figured the round table system the Alliance uses is great for peace time but awful for war time. He dismantled this system with the support of the Alliance lords and established a monarchy with him chosen as the first king. Now that his word is absolute, he can do whatever controversial stuff he wants during war times and decided the best course of action is to ally with Edelgard.
His goals though are different. Edelgard wants the same as in Three Houses: destroy the oppressive and corrupt Crest system and the Central Church. This however also includes the Kingdom who support the Central Church. Claude have an issue only with the Central Church and nothing with the Kingdom, they just get in the way for supporting. Claude figured out that because the Empire is also after the Kingdom, the Alliance must be the one to take the Kingdom so they will be in position to demand the Empire to stop the war on the Kingdom and focus on the Church.
I won't spoil how it turned out.
@@FrostedMike Additionally, Edelgard just wanted to remove Rhea from her role, while Claude wanted to kill her. Anyway, they ally in Scarlet Blaze, too (in the good ending at least)
Well, Edelgard still had much contact with non noble people especially in Garreg Mach, so I think it's dumb to ignore that piint
Does anyone want an Edge of Dawn/Colors (or some CG song) mash-up and remix? I do.
11:40 Edelgard actually doesn't keep her power in the Crimson Flower ending. As soon as the war is over she abdicates the throne to someone who is not a crest bearer and lives the rest of her life mostly in solitude.
5:22 - Love this line
I immediately thought of Code Geass when I started playing Three Houses. I’m so glad someone made a video about the similarities
wow this was really good
I wonder if your opinion on Edelgard has been affected by Three Hopes, since the time this video was released.
One quick correction about Lelouch leaving the power structure intact; he technically does, but he does so while destroying most of the country's military and the world's primary supply of sakuradite, the mineral used to power the most advanced part of the Britannian war machine. He also disempowers or kills most of the ruling class, demoting the royal family to basic soldiers or literal janitors.
The result of Lelouch's rebellion is that Britannia the Britannian Empire is dissolved and reestablished as a democracy.
Ironically, Edelgard follows much of the same ideology as Lelouch, but whereas he breaks apart an empire, she establishes a more unified one.
I have to say that all ideals are inherently hypocritical. As in we as humans are not faultless as such we cannot always flawlessly apply ourselves to a specific set of values.
Edelgard and Lelouch both acknowledge there own hypocrisies. Even if the two believe everything they do is for the people, in reality they both play into the very systems that are the root of the people’s suffering. They berate those in power for not earning there status when they damn well know as children of monarchs neither wouldn’t be nearly as strong without there birthrights.
Both understand just how warped there methods are but believe if they do not do it no one else will. I adore characters like Edelgard and Lelouch especially in our times.
Sometimes the world doesn’t need a hero, but another villain.
I wouldnt say hypocritical so much so as completely misguided.
How is Edelgard dismantling the system that oppresses people feeding into the system that oppresses people? How is it hypocritical to try and tear down said system, even if it gave her the power to do so? It probably the single best use for said power wouldn't you agree?
Consider that she abdicates after her work is done so obviously she does not believe she deserves the power afforded to her herself, especially considering she never asked for being born the daughter of an emperor.
V. Emil the II-nd. Lmao
Love this video so much.
Annnnd... now I want to see an Edelgard x Lelouch fanfic.
I don't even like fanfiction that much, I just... unf.
The best question I can ask: Which is worse? A long, terrible life that one would rather not live? Or a short life that invokes change such that others can live better?
Though surprising, many people choose the former. And it's not just attachment to institutions. It's fear of change. There is comfort in stability, even if that stability comes at the cost of your own happiness or well-being. It is absolutely a form of stockholm syndrome. You love not the system, but the familiarity you have with it.
Great video, subbed. Is it possible to have a list of the music tracks used? They're really good.
6:16 - ...to a Hegemonic entity
Interesting you point that out considering what Edelgard's final form is called in Azure Moon
It's a bit fitting since I did actually go through the crimson flower route.
The profile tho.
5:22 OMG the fire emblem portraits in FE7 style??!? AMAZING
For me, the CF story is the canon one. If you know the stories of (mostly) fire emblem games, you can see the similarities. The lords kill the gods and the mankind can live freely.
All routes are Canon. There is no path that's objectively correct over the others. That's the entire point of the game.
Also, this is fire emblem, not final fantasy. The only time they've committed to killing deities is Echoes and Fates(revelations), and both were mercy kills. Otherwise you generally have the help of a good deity/dragon to fight the bad one, and in Radiant Dawn you end up restoring the original form of the goddess.
What is the song that played around at the start? Please and thank you!
8:19 its her C+ Support, not her B Support
Tirex367 you are so right thank you for pointing that out
I've watched this video many times
HOLY SHIT WHY IS THIS VIDEO SO GOOD
Neither did anything wrong
I've never heard of Edlgard where's she from if it's a game it looks awesome
Fire Emblem 3 Houses, also its Edelgard
Its interesting...both Suzaku and Edelgard are Cancer Signs. And they're contrastingly different in their ideologies.
Out of curiosity, what sign are Dimitri and Lelouch?
Since Dimitri is kindred spirit with Suzaku, as Edelgard is kindred spirit with Lelouch.
@@Shuyin781 Dimitri is Sagittarius. Same for Lelouch.
@@v.emiltheii-nd.8094 seriously ?
That makes the parallel Edelgard/Lelouch and Dimitri/Suzaku even better !
@@Shuyin781 Yep. Just checked.
I see what IS did there.
@@Shuyin781 I like to think that the FE3H dev team were Code Geass fans.
Fun fact about Cancerians and Sagitarriuses. They may be introverts but make no mistake they DO NOT get along (with some moon/ascendant-related exceptions). They both have contrastingly different mentalities and different ways of doing things. Which made the Dimitri/Lelouch vs Edelgard/Suzaku comparisons all the more fitting.
Which is ironic since Cancer and Aries also do not get along. And Hubert is an Aries.
I think my only critique is when you said Edelgard speaks for the poor more than Dimitri does.
Dimitri is acutely aware of his people’s beliefs, traditions, and values. Not only that but in Azure Moon after he was broken out of prison he lived with the commoners in the slums for a while as we see through a note he puts in the counselor box, not only that but he’s always been a champion of giving them support. He knows Faerghus has poor soil, not many resources, and that his common people don’t have access to much of any way to really rise to the top of society. He constantly talks about putting their needs above that of the nobility, putting giving them stability, peace, and food on the table over bloody revolution. Edelgard’s meritocracy ignores how the mobility, even if abolished, would still have the resources, money, and education needed to stay at the top of said meritocracy. That isn’t to demonize Edelgard, her revolution makes sense for Adrestia. It’s when her revolution seeps into the rest of Fodlan that she seems to ignore the specific needs that Leicester, who’s peasants rarely even see their lords and who arguably have even less of a drive for a meritocracy, and Faerghus have.
Super interesting video though, sorry for that little rant
Its super appreciated! Thank you for nuance and added perspective
Quick talk ...
You really got me wanting to have her VA to say: "Edelgard von Hresvelg commands you ..."?
I want Edleguard to wrestle me to the ground
🤝
Finally a non biased pro-dim* or pro AM video.
I really like controversial characters such as Raiden (circa MGS2), Ash Crimson, Edelgard and Lelouch, they make stories compelling and very good.
Doesnt seem pro-Dimitri to me. If anything, I think makes Edelgard more complex than she already was.
I am referring in compared to the other videos that are mostly anti Edelgard, and pro Dimitri.
@@BlueFalconPunch07 Oooh yeah, there are a billion of these out there.
I kinda hate how toxic some anti-Edelgard people are in this fandom. A waste of time debating with them tbh.
Something Something edelgard will always lose
@@thatoneblackdude3333 Yep, thats what its said. Even though "saib" is strong.
There isn’t much of a difference between Devil horns and Dragon horns.
If one looks closer you can see that Edelgard’s crown is not dissimilar to what Rhea (As Seiros) wore. Trading draconic wings for horns.
Perhaps it’s because I saw someone else’s interpretation first or maybe because their vision lines up closer with my opinion but I always saw that as being a sign of parallel characterisation rather than allegory.
That Edelgard is ironically similar to the very woman she hates. (I’ve never understood why she hates Rhea so much more than the Agarthans but that’s only near the top of my laundry list of issues with Edelgard)
A leader of the Empire striking down the evil that threatens to rule Fòdlan through tyranny with the Crest and blade of Seiros. History repeats and we can see the similarities between both characters that would like to believe they are nothing alike.
Both are ruthless and somewhat amoral as leaders, both are dangerously dedicated to their causes to the point of sacrificing the people they are supposed to lead for the sake of their goals, both of them lost almost all of their family to the Agarthans, both of them unknowingly or not depend on Byleth to reign them in, both of them have an indirect connection to Sothis, Rhea being her daughter and Edelgard having the Crest of Flames, both go through the process of abandoning their humanity and become monsters at the end of their respective routes. Azure Moon for Edelgard, Silver Snow for Rhea.
But there is a genuine issue I take with the end of Crimson Flower.
Edelgard didn’t dismantle the actual current hierarchy, only the importance of crests.
The nobility will still have wealth, land, education and opportunities regardless of the crest system that the rest of the population will not have. Edelgard’s successor will be chosen based on meritorious appointment which is a painfully optimistic approach to succession of leadership.
So easily corrupted by favouritism and general human failings.
Well nobility is ok if you see imperial Germany's was like the empire of fe 3 house. And yet they ad good Education,good economy, food, inovation and everything. If it wasn't for WW1 Germany would have ben the center of the world culture tech Science education. And if you are worthy you get the Von title.
I don't understand the hare of nobility? They are owner of land's. Big corporation are owners of big land's. What's the difference?
@@raychii7361
That societal disparity will persist regardless of any Crest bloodline since the nobility are the ones with all the wealth, experience and training not afforded to everyone else.
And no I don’t see it like Germany since this culture and society is not equatable to any specific society of ours, only a general time period based on technological and social standards.
Owning big lands... do you see why that’s important? Especially for the social period this era is based on?
Big lands means that you own what lives on these lands. Taxation, serfdom, exports, imports, material, trade, legislature, security, public health, public infrastructure, armament and more.
All in the hands of one house.
One that is not beholden to the welfare of its inhabitants.
Big Corporations don’t equate because they operate under law. They have restrictions over what they can do with their workers, they have restrictions over what they can do environmentally.
There are barriers in place to curb their power.
The Nobility however are the power, one that can’t be held accountable since there is no higher government capable of micromanaging the affairs of state of so many houses.
@@rustkarl dispire the fact rhea is an actual dragon.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand now I have a new crack ship
I made a comment on another video about her going "Lelouch Vi Britannia" on everyone's ass. This video got recommended to me after posting that. Very well articulated and I will definitely be referencing this video. Calmly and clearly explain Edelgard's actions and why they can be seen as justified.
Sacrifice for the sake of ideals. It reminds me of "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." Edelgard stood for Fodlan and refused to budge for anyone, including the church and TWSID operating behind the scenes. Did everything she needed to, to secure a better future. What's insane is the fact that she made sure this would happen even if she were to die. The CF route is just amazing, I think if the devs had expanded on it a little more and fleshed out some parts it wouldn't be as controversial in the FE3H fandom. Seems like they poured a lot more plot and character development in the AM route though.
2 years
Cone backkkk😔
Wars come and go, king and queens, emperors & rulers are born and die, be it by the sword, the passage of time, poison or just plain bad luck, kingdoms and empire alike will rise and fall with their leaders and respective ideals, the one thing constant that will never change is the need for people who can use or make steel, but the way I see none really wins, when wars are fought how many simple people get caught in the middle of it all, we just ignore it, at end in the end what matter to me is this, as long wars will be fought as long as there will be battles to part in, my sword arm will be up for sale, and wallet will always be full, if someone's need a kingslayer, I'm your man, you need an upstart rebellion crushed, will do, need me to save ao royal fine piece of ass, can do, all that I require is a contract!
But what if the status quo is open to change?
I see history as little small steps towards what people wanted.
Yes there are abusive empires/kings but those institution need the people in some way.
Took ages to get here.
But the bigges step is probably the idea of (somewhere in federalist papers)
For an effective democracy to work. The citizens themselves has to be their own little Kings. With their own sets of rules/policy/honor.
In the long run. Society moves towards progress (in a decent enough democracy, even if it's slow)
So I don't really get the need of violence if we have justice system/representatives that are incentive to follow the people. (Because that's the point of little kings. Everyone working/respecting for everyone else but not to the point of centralized kings. So there should be a way to keep everyone equally king-like but not tyrant-like. All across the nation)
the problem is the difference between Fodlan and real life- in real life corrupt rulers die and empires collapse. Rhea is immortal and is holding Fodlan together with overwhelming religious zeal and force. without force in kind, Rhea would never let go
@Lizzy Trip you nailed it, sister.
What's the name of the song u used in the beginning
In the little amv section?
@@subtitledanime yes the Japanese song
Its edge of dawn but the japanese ver
@@subtitledanime thanks a lot
@@subtitledanime btw love your videos they're amazing
Code Geass is Fire Emblem with guns and mechs.
I like this video but have to disagree with the Dimitri Suzaku comparison. Dimitri has a level of self-awareness and capacity to change and understand that Suzaku sorely lacks.
I also take issue with the comparison of the Church of Seiros to the Britannian Empire.
I feel sorry for people who don't GET Edelgard/Lelouch. All hail!
10:11
I feel like there is lot of bad takes here. Let's start with Lelouch (because it's much shorter story). He did everything for revenge. He was only using revolution for his goal. He ultimately sacrificed himself for redemption. He went from villain to hero, but just because he were able make right decisions in end doesn't he was in right whole time (but yes Black knights did fight for right cause. That's not even question)
Everything said about El here is basically wrong. She didn't suffer by hands of church, nobility or even crest system. She suffered lot, but throwing blame on wrong target never helped anything. Heck in Empire church has literally zero power as it was kicked out and as Emperor she had all power to change political landscape (especially as she has support of two mightiest families of nation). And honestly status quo wasn't that bad in Fodlan and there is no guarantees it will be better under her rule. Especially as she believes that everything will be fine just by destroying old order, without idea what it should be replaced with.
The thing that seperates Lelouch from Edelgard for me is the conviction. Lelouch never uses a third party to exact evil upon civilians.
Neither did edelgard lol. Shes not in control of TWSIND. It's honestly the opposite up until shes crowned, and even then they're more like enemies fighting a common enemy.
But Edelgard doesn’t have that much power over the Slitherers, really.
Did anyone else feel like the Byleth/Sothis dynamic was a bit of a ripoff of Lelouch/CC?
I love Edelgard's character, but my biggest issue with her vision is that she'll just become Rhea 2.0 . Rhea had good intentions and helped the people of Foldan, but as time passed, it caused more harm. Edelgard's ideals are born in trauma, and in the end she is still an emperor. She speaks as if she made an equal world, but really she just stands on the very top of a new one. How is the new world equal when the very people she intended to help she has killed? Rhea started the Church from good intention as well as the traumatic loss of her family and especially her mother; their origins are similar just with different execution. I still like her more than Rhea though.
- Free Education
- No hampering technoligical progress.
There will always be corruption, but thse 2 will do a lot to help the common man. Just look at Prussia.
Edelgard new regime is based on what she think is true.
Rhea old regime is base on she think would be the best lie.
They are just different system. Anyway a meritocracy will only be good for big corpo. Next fire emblem will be old nobles fighting the mega corporation.
@@yunuss58 You do know the technological advancement are driven by war and a meritocracy will be good for rich people who have a headstart over simple citezen's. And remember germany was on is zenith during the imperial era.
@@raychii7361 You aren't completely wrong but unlike Rhea who built a system to keep herself on top. Edelgard wants to actually make people's lives better. And of course rich people will have a headstart.....like in real life.
But many act like because her system isn't foolproof that it is no different than what was before. In her nrw system the general population will have much better chances to achieve something than before.
And any system is better thsm feudalism that is based on eugenics.
@@yunuss58 Churches shouldn't do politics.
War after war. After the system imposed by edelgard other people like her will rise and trow fodlan ar war again in the name of progress. Still it all depends on the point of view. But still normal people would still live miserable cause is still a medieval world. Have you played Legend of heroes treal of Cold Steel? It's a game base on a empire with nobles and commoner s in a industrial revolution world. Maybe can make you more open on other way of thinking.
Slight issue with your video, is that you say EDelgard kept her power in tact? No she didn't its told in the end card that she succeeded in creating a meritocracy
Dying is pog
There is a certain irony with Edelgard though, for instance she likely did have a choice of a peaceful revolution, the abuses of the Crest System were by far the worst in her own territory. Territory which the Church has the least influence in (remember the Southern Church had long since been replaced with the Ministry of Religion headed by Count Varley or Bernadetta's dad). And the other region to have similar faults is the Kingdom, see Ingrid and Sylvain, but Sylvain himself bucks that quo, hell he likely would have without a bloody war. And then there's the Alliance where it is shown that many can rise and fall on their own merits, Ignatz and Raphael are great examples. Or House Edmund taking the seat from House Daphnel as one of the 5 Major Houses at the Round Table Conference.
Of course that isn't it, no of course not, that can all frankly be forgiven. No no it's the fact that Edelgard justifies her war on half truths and lies. Sure feudalism is bad, it's feudalism, but you know what else is bad? An imperial dictatorship. Sure now it's based on meritorious appointment and not birthright but that's not like that's without its faults. For one who is the arbiter of merit? The emperor? Ok fair I can believe Edelgard is a good judge of character but who is to say her successors are? And even if they are therein lies the other issue that is the nobles still are there, and they still have the land and resources to get an education and wield power, with or without a Crest. That only means the ones befitting of "merit" is the nobility. And that's assuming it doesn't eventually just collapse into nepotism reverting to the old ways. And that in of itself doesn't even acknowledge the possibility of a brutal civil war. Edelgard was wrong in her declaration of war, Rhea may be no saint but she isn't as evil as the Emperor of Flame paints her to be. What will happen when another ambitious soul like Edelgard realizes this? Well one in Fódlan can only pray by the grace of Sothis they are closer to Claude than her in their pursuit of the truth. AND that still doesn't even get into the national identities of the Kingdom and Alliance. That makes the likelihood of another War of the Eagle and Lion quite real.
And you undersell Dimitri's reforms quite a bit, he does in the end gradually diminish if not outright throw out the Crest System entirely. He purges corruption in his Kingdom and works to build bridges between the conquered peoples in Adrestia. And unlike Edelgard he is known to have opened public schooling to educate the masses. And sure the Church remains but its head is Byleth, who even if they were to remain in power indefinitely, is not Rhea and would rather see Fódlan move forward and can assure Dimitri's successors don't screw it up. But even then it is seemingly made clear eventually they step back from the public eye and functionally vanish (even if records of the Ashen Demon can be seen centuries later).
My point being is Edelgard could have been diplomatic, she admits Claude's ideals are not far removed from her own. And Dimitri remembering Edelgard as his sister is willing to listen to her, especially when two of his childhood friends have been burned by the crest system. Really the issue is Rhea (certainly I believe Seteth would be willing to hear her out but we unfortunately do not have the blessing of an Archbishop Seteth) but I do believe Rhea would put peace above the Crests, or if Edelgard spoke to her fellow rulers first could see the writing on the wall that the people will move forward with or without her. And this is neglecting Hanneman's research making Crests functionally absolute. But that of course is the tragedy of her character, it's that she didn't try to talk but rather went for the quickest means to an end. An end, that if it was her own, would ironically change little if anything.
This comment is:
Assumption
Assumption
Headcanon
Assumption
Jesus Christ.
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Canada:!? You ruined Justin Bieber!
USA: You are the embodiment of all what is wrong in the world
Canada: are you earing yourself!?
Seriously Edelgard logic to destroy a church who are peacefull make no sense.
Everyone depends on something for peace and stability. Especially in this sort of setting where too many people cannot do it themselves.
For the average person, peace is when he can pay his taxes, do his job, feed himself and/or his family.
But enforcing that himself is hard.
He’s a serf, or a craftsman, or a hunter.
He’s not a soldier. So he has no choice but to rely on either mercenaries or the soldiers of the land to protect him and his. The former is expensive and unreliable when it comes to having them on hand which only puts more of a strain on his or his community’s finances.
The others need backing, especially with institutions that can be relied upon to fulfil that purpose. The world of politics and government is so far beyond him that the only reason as to why it matters to him about who’s arse sits on the throne is if they can continue protecting him.
Even for us educated modern people we rely on policing and judicial systems to protect us and our rights and we are used to that. Far be it from them needing to go it’s that which needs to stay.
While the big bad church and the big bad empire are at war all of these people are going to feel the weight of this.
War is hideously expensive, even when you are heartless or self-righteous enough to discount the lives you throw into the meat grinder. This average guy is going to feel the bite of taxation even further so that some other guy can go off and kill some churchgoers.
If nothing really changes for this man then all this grand revolution does is put this man and countless others like him at risk of being incapable with keeping up with a warmonger’s demands.
In all this the one to blame is the one who started the war.
If peace means that I can live day to day without undue strife then I’m fine with that.
except 10 years max down the line where Almyra rolls up to the Locket and blows through it with cannons and rifles, then steamrolls all of Fodlan because Rhea thinks that allowing Gunpoweder to exist in Fodlan will lead to TWISD again because of her racism against humans.
@@lizzytrip4560
By and large it’s been the duty of the Alliance and House Goneril to keep Almyra at bay on behest of Fòdlan with the support from the Church as required.
Rhea’s concern for Fòdlan as a whole would likely involve taking more action should the threat from Almyra prove strong enough to threaten the Alliance and by extension Fòdlan.
An example would be that she took dragon form again when the Empire started fielding Demonic Beasts in their army. She is certainly capable of escalating the output of power if the situation warrants it and compromising certain lesser known tenets of church authority in the face of an oncoming threat seems likely.
In other words she’s plenty willing to bend the rules if she deems the situation requires it, considering all the leeway she gives Byleth and the way the Church performed certain duties in lieu of the Kingdom on certain occasions.
Barring some certain yet understandable thresholds (like cooperation with the Agarthans or use of crest stones) she’s not so dogmatic as to allow Fòdlan to be overtaken for the sake of pride.
@@rustkarl heres the thing- when cannons and guns happen there will not be a house Gonriel anymore. A lot of people really undervalue the strength of a gun.
Suddenly any shmuck with 2 weeks of training has the range and power of a Mage and the durability of an armor knight, and a cannon can blow a foot radius hole in the center of any wall that would stop them. And you dont go from "gunpowder is illegal" to guns and cannons in a couple weeks.
If Fodlan isnt already producing firearms when Almyra attacks with them no amount of a single dragon and a few strong weapons will stop them, and TWISD are just as screwed because the Viskam is made irrelevant when it gets shot with a cannon
@@lizzytrip4560
I highly doubt that Almyra would roll out that many new weapons of sufficient volume and efficacy before the response escalated.
@@rustkarl thanks to the Abyss books we know that they had already made prototype firearms. Why would they not use this powerful new weapon?
okay here's a thing... neither the kingdom nor the alliance had a rampant crest corruption... it was primarily the empire that had such full scale corruption, the church in way forced the crest system so the issue seems to have been the empire internally in the first place... but Edelgard blamed the church
Then ironically her new system propogates the very tragedy she was subjected to, in fact strictly speaking it's the very same system as the Brittanian empire goes by
pretty much why i always go with edel chan, she is the only one that wants drastic and lasting improvement
Gonna have to disagree on your assessment of Claude. Only his route actually addresses a major problem not just in Fodlan's society, but in its very culture: the rampant racism and xenophobia present towards those from Almyra, Duscur, Brigid and all the others. Azure Moon basically papers over that problem with token reforms, Silver Snow doesn't address it at all and even Crimson Flower only improves matters for them within the framework of the empire granting out autonomous regions, much like the Special Area status Japan is granted in Code Geass.
Meanwhile, Verdant Wind basically sees Claude & Byleth start a cultural revolution in Fodlan and opening it up to the rest of the world, and even sees the crests & nobility devalued.
The rest of the video is great however, even if I can't attest to anything from Code Geass.
I’m afraid I agreed with the idea that forcing change with blood was never a good means of ensuring a stable and effective change.
Revolution only begets more extremist measures to maintain stability, gradual change of social and political spheres is much slower but comes at a cost less steeped in blood.
The problem I have is that far too often is the innocent blood shed along with the guilty.
For these reasons I have never been able to like Edelgard or her ideals. And since her ideals are so intrinsically linked to her character, I just end up disliking her.
As I recall Dimitri was not opposed to Edelgard’s ideals based on the concept that the population ‘weren’t strong enough for the world she wanted’ it was because what she was doing was wrong, that what she was doing was too costly for the people it was intended for and would rip the content apart irreparably.
Doesn't matter what you look/where you're from. What matters are your actions, decisions and conviction to change the world for the better, no matter how morally gray and "evil" your actions/intentions are to other people around you. No matter how many people you trample on and how much you bloodied your hands to realize that "ideal world" of yours.
People like Dimitri/Suzaku will never change the world, it takes people willing to push boundaries, disrupt the status-quo, and dirty their hands to do that. Like Lelouch/Edelgard.
Why is that so?
I strongly disagree with that, if we had a bloody revolution for every child with PTSD the world would be worse than it already is, not better. Edelgard was ignorant to history and prone to having little nuance in her judgements. Lelouch faltered in his goals multiple times and mostly kept going because of sunk cost fallacy.
Their stories are great, they are popular for a reason, their actions in real life would just be cause for unnecessary strife that will lead to repetition the next time another PTSD trauma child with enough determination rises from the negative side-effects of establishing a regime.
@@carlosjosejimenezbermudez9255 you reap what you sow.
I think, much like LeLouch, the cost of Edelgard's ideals is too high. If, at any point, his/her plans were thwarted beyond recovery, then all of their atrocities would have been for nothing. There was surely another, better path to achieving one's goals. But they took the quick and easy route, and either paid the price themselves (In non-CF routes), or forced others to pay the price (CF route). And in the end, things might not have worked out quite how they hoped even if their plans to conquer the world succeeded.
They rarely listened to the perspective of others, and so they could have easily overlooked many crucial details of their plan that would ensure their goals ultimately failed. Much like LeLouch's plan to save the world, Edelgard's plan to conquer the world and build an egalitarian society was formed on a shaky foundation at best, based on an incomplete understanding of the social dynamics and historical events that caused all the world's woes. But in their arrogance, they believe that there is nothing else to learn, and so remain ignorant of the many fatal flaws in their master plan.
There are countless examples of violent revolutions that ultimately changed very little, or only served to make things worse. The Russian Revolution, the many Chinese revolutions. Long, bloody, violent revolutions like America's, which succeed in their original goals, are the exception and not the rule. There is always another, better way. Gandhi's revolution and Britain's Glorious Revolution are proof of that.
you are a dumb dumb
Lol stfu
Touched a nerve, did I?
@@dragonslair951167 no, you just wrong for example, the french revolution was one bloodiest time in europe and yet is was so worth it, since it gave peasants basic rights and thats why you are a dumb dumb
@@griswo3272 The French Revolution never accomplished its original goals, and if all that the Revolution could accomplish after decades of war and upheaval was giving a few basic rights to peasants, it really shows just how little violence can accomplish.
In my opinion, Edelgard will always lose in the end. Of course, the system must be destroyed but it will not last long because social/political class will always be a problem. Edelgard wants to change the hereditary aspect of the crests and based power on merit. The main reason why Edelgard will lose is because she hasn't moved on from the past so in a sense she's similar to Rhea. Rhea and Edelgard are the same because they hold on to their traumatic past.
This is true. Rhea wanted to protect the people of Fodlan and give them something to believe in, but because of her trauma she loses her vision. Edelgard's vision is so based in trauma and violence that she too will lose in the end. She only succeeds when Byleth is there to help her, showing that she only got lucky in her task because someone level-headed and taciturn can keep her in check. Without Byleth, she literally becomes a husk because she's that desperate.
Hasn't moved on? Do your damn research!
"Professor Hanneman, please, say no more. I've made peace with my past. Now, I look only to the future. To the world we're fighting to create."
- Edelgard / Hanneman A-Support.
in every route she still wins.
She wins in every route without Byleth lol
The issue I find from violent, guerilla revolution as opposed to societal revolutions (think the War for Independence vs the Civil Rights Movement) is that overthrowing the oppressors through force almost always leads to further oppression. And while institutions are greater than their leaders, the same can be said of revolutions; if you say that Edelgard succeeded in her revolution to end the Crest system because she was a special person, I believe this fails to take into account who comes after her.
This is why I believe the best ending is Verdant Wind: Claude manages to be somewhat selfless, as his plans don't involve him becoming leader. Azure Moon is uncritical of the church, and so it continues unopposed in the (admittedly better) kingdom, and Silver Snow is just flat-out bad, as it reinforces the power of the church. I believe Clade's route shows that you don't need to completely remove institutions, but instead you can take power away from them and they'll be unable to hurt anyone anymore. A sort of social democracy as opposed to socialism, if you're up on political theory: bringing change because people work for it, not fight for it. Perhaps that's just the idealist in me, but I'd like to believe that warfare shouldn't be the greatest arbiter of change and reform.
Good video, bro!
The thing is the changes in Verdant Wind are setup by Edelgards War still they are founded on it Claude takes advantage of it.
edelgards war changes the world for the better in 3/4 routes even in Verdant Wind and Azure Moon and her own, because its was triggered the changes set in every other route as the video says
"Only with the screams, are those in power forced to listen" it applies here as well
@Wind Rose and @Kyoka Jiro:
Both correct. I more meant to say I trust Claude more than Edelgard to build a better society, but Edelgard was necessary to make that change in the first place.
Thank you very much for your thoughts!
@@nathancarter8239 Claude doesn't even bother to build a new one since he leaves everything to you. His principal goal was never Fodlan, but Almyra
My issue in Crimson Flower is that, while the church is dismantled and that's great, the nobility system...isn't? I know it's partially because it's a lot of work to come up with a ton of new endings for characters that acknowledge that change, but it really takes the umph out of that whole route considering that she doesn't overhaul things. She keeps that power for herself and her buddies instead of giving it up in the end and that seems so antithetical to what she says she's fighting for.
I actually found Edelgard a lot more compelling in Azure Moon than her own route because of that lack of follow through.
This was a great watch though. I need to watch Code Geass one day, ha ha.
sort of kind of... the endings on CF do make mention that the people who are in noble positions have to prove themselves to keep them, and Manuela's paired ending with Edelgard explicitly mentions her rising to the position of a top advisor on her own merit. One wonders what the world looks like beyond the narrow, immediate scope of most of the ending cards, though...
@@bogbody6128 yeah, I guess what I mean is the route would have benefitted from having some chapters focused on both dealing with the Slitherers and Edelgard actually trying to institute some of her reforms. It feels a little empty at the end.
But she does abolish nobility it just doesn't happen immediately because she wasn't found a replacement yet you can't just replace a government system without replacing it with something edelgard mentions with her support with Constance she plans on making a democracy she can't do that if nobility is still the same I think the confusion lies in ending cards cause some of them are recycled from other routes like Ferdinand still being called the "nobles of nobles" in the route where nobility is supposed to be abolished but she does get rid of nobility it's mentioned in many endings that she does plus multiple endings of characters receiving high political status without having a noble title or inherence " Manuela becomes prime minister in on of her endings , (Casper becomes minister of military affairs when he's the second son and wasn't supposed to have that title) it's a little confusing since the characters still get the positions they where ment to inherit but it's not because of them being nobility but because they were the only ones who could get those titles , edelgard doesn't keep the power to herself she literally says she'll step down after everything is done and hand over the throne to a successor
@@explodingpompoms oh well yeah that route needed a good bit more time and budget but that is a well worn complaint by now lol.
@@bogbody6128 if you ask me they should have ditched silver snow and just made crimson flower the default route for black eagles like the others to give it more breathing room instead of lumping it with another route
I personally don't see much positive merit from Edelgard's decision to start a war.
Most of the corruption was in her own territory first off. And second, she was at a school, with several notable nobles or influential citizens. Most of if not all really were either disapproving of the crest/noble system or out right hated it. Ferdi and Lorenz were hung up on their nobility but both could easily have been swayed with time. And blaming everything on the church was laughable. Like when she told her people the church destroyed Arianroad to hide her own twisted involvement with the evil group of rouges. Rhea wasn't perfect. I was extra sus of her most of the game. But Seteth mentions they didn't even want to separate the students by class but the NOBLES insisted. She had people from all walks of life working and helping.
Also, man, they just like low-key mentioned Rhea lied about Nemesis but offered absolutely no evidence beyond that one line. Like, that was a pretty big detail but the fact that it's never brought up again or mentioned makes me suspect in it's not entirely true. That's not on Edel of course but her predecessors who had shunned the church years prior, making them the perfect fodder for TWSITD to taint and destroy.
That said, Edel had the ear and trust of several people who could have gone home and worked from their own pockets of Fodlan to bring that change she wanted. Instead she chose to slaughter people and start a war because she couldn't be bothered to try a peaceful approach. Also the complete lack of anyone holding her accountable was kind of yikes. Dimitri had several characters who expressed concern over his actions, his thoughts. He still went coo coo for coco puffs but it was expressed in game that he was in the wrong. I never got that same vibe from Edel which only intensified her failures and actions. Minions never question their evil overlords.
She makes for a great villain but she's no anti-hero. I also argue the Lelouch similarities glosses over the fact that she was in power. She was in a place to sway things from the top down. Lelouch was not.
I think it's fine if you wanna like her, don't bother me any. Villain's are always well liked and she's definitely a baddie. Which the story needed so she's integral. But you won't find me shedding a year when she throws a dagger at Dimitri who simply wanted his friend back.
she is not villan also you did not pay attention to the story at all and all of foldlan was suffering from the crest system.
Don't agree. The difference is that lelouch fought against an imperial power that invited conflict constantly. While the church didnt.
Edelgard is more like Charle zi britania.
Charle was tired of lie's and so e wanted to impose is idiology by making a world without lie's.
Rhea but a world based on lie's and peace succeed thanks to lie's.
Just like Lelouch is new world us base in all the lie's e made during is revolution.
Edelgard want to destroy the lie that is the church of seiros.
you realize Fodlan as a socio-political system only existed because of the church stoking conflict between the states while using its relgion to stoke xenophobia and zealotry against their neighbors? That is the definition of that.