*Correction at 49 minutes: The theory that Dimitri's survival of the tragedy was unintentional shouldn't have been included in this video as its conjecture and should be treated as such. I elaborated more on this point here:* ua-cam.com/video/7qk0rD4D1QE/v-deo.html This is the Edelgard Support Science Definitive Edition. Two hours of character analysis of Edelgard von Hresvelg. I took down the previous version of this video because after reading feedback and speaking to people who personally reached out to me, there was much more I could do. I genuinely hope you enjoyed this video. Its the first 2 hour analysis on the channel and I'm very proud of how it ended up. And if you dismissed the first one, but you're reading this, I hope you enjoyed it too!
I believe it actually is too long for its own good. I watched the og video which already was a hefty, massive piece of media only for it to be remade into even longer one which, honestly, i am not too keen on watching. It is too extensive and just not... Concise. I do not think such length is necessary, more, it is a turn off for me and possibly many others. When i watched almost all of your other videos, you never went so far on a root of a root of a root, which in the end is not entirely necessary in my opinion. Entire lore of three houses should be its own video rather than being explained in support science, else it feels like someone tried to fit entire history book to their cv to show what world machinations put them there. Last two videos especially went hard on the length of the video, which made me miss much simpler times when it was just 45 minutes rather than whole two hours. On top of that... i would say you come off as really biased, despite claiming to be critical in the description. I get it, support science is you fanboying over characters you love, no matter if they caused massive genocide or a war that could have been avoided, yet if you claim to be critical, be that way. If you read this i want to tell you that i appreciate your content nonetheless, even if it sometimes is tiring to watch. Thank you for the all the videos you deliver!
Actually there're lots of Claude gang vs Edelgard gang as well. Their arguments usually about 'Claude is a milder version of Edelgard who has no balls to do what she did, he agrees to all that she believe but he wants to be a supreme ruler himself, so he is more hypocritical and incapable than Edelgard'
@@fitriaamel438 Wow,so Claude not wanting to spread wanton bloodshed is being hypocritical? And nowhere in the game does it indicate that Claude wants to be a supreme dictator ruling the world like Edelgard. He wants free trade,less xenophoia,and open borders between countries. What makes Edelgard hypocritical to me is she says she wants change,but she never even considers trying peaceful alternatives to do so. She never tries talking with Rhea about her grievances with the church or try to find common ground with the other lords on her issues. What makes it even more sad that the other routes indicate that the peaceful options can work. She's an interesting character because of that hypocrisy though. Her tragic flaw is that she's so set in what she considers right that she's not willing to consider other peoples viewpoints.Sure,you can somewhat say that for the other two lords,but I think it especially applies to her. If she and the others could've came to an understanding on their shared grievances about Fondlan,they could've made just as great of a change without a war. And that's the greatest tragedy of 3 Houses's narrative to me.
@@infinitedreamer9359 he did say he wants to become a supreme ruler if you spare him in CF. But his tone is more like joking. And even if he's not joking, still doesn't count that remark as agreeing to El bloody method. But yeah El stans like to interpret Claude's and Dimitri's words in the worst way possible. And if you won't agree to them they will call you the hypocrite instead. Personally, I agree with you, the closest thing to a hypocrite is El herself.
Edelgard, Rhea and Dimitri have ALL lost their family in a gruesome way (by the same group of people), and have lost a part of themselves in their grieving. And unfortunately only Byleth and save/redeem them, and only one of them in a given route. Regardless, of how controversial these characters are, I think we can all agree that these are all tragic characters with similar origins for their motives.
Edelgard is def one of my favorite characters in the game. So rare to have a "villain" with this much depth rather than the usual cartoonish asshole emperors and not only that you can completely join her route. I like that in her supports with Constance she discusses what is essentially a republic and with Ferdinand they talk about free education for all, not just nobility. It's hard to fully call her a villain when ideologically she's a lot like the French Revolution or the American Revolutionaries
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 Yeah, someone allied with the TWSITD, which commit genocide is a lot like the revolutionist, when saying revolutionist, you refer to Robespierre? But I guess even Robespierre won't do so. A politician support by Neo-NAZI and allied with Neo-NAZI, allowing Neo-NAZI do all their things, so that he/she can become the president and start a war to conquer entire Earth, just to achieve his/her goal to create a peaceful, equal, utopia world, and said he/she will dealt with these Neo-NAZI afterward, I guess that's you guys favorite politician, right? That's quite make sense, while claiming how you guys love freedom, equality etc., but you know, to win, to achieve the goal, it is essential to have the support from these true villain, and in case to not provoke them before the ultimate victory, you just have to allow them do all the evil things. It just not my responsibility after all, I am the good guy who want to create a equal world.
She did say she's basically planning to lead a revolution multiple times, so she's quite literally a revolutionary. Imagine if the French emperor was the leader of the french Revolution basically.
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 antagonist is a good way to put it. Because of how strong her convictions are. She's willing to wear the mantle of villain but she is not exactly truely a villain. She accepts the burden of being a person that is To be hated by the world and have history revile her. it's why I don't consider her "redemption" her good ending, and see that more as part of Byleth's ending. Byleth needs to redeem her chosen Lord/Ally. Edelgard to get what she wants doesn't need redeeming and doesn't need current or future people's to like her to get what she wants. She doesn't even need to live in the better world she creates. it's a rare and potentially compelling but also dangerous character concept and I think it's pulled off well with Edelgard.
A bit late to the party, but I kinda just got to play 3H a few weeks ago anyways. Simply put, Edelgard became my favorite character quickly. Which is odd, since I played Crimson Flower last. But I really stopped up, took a double take and got surprised greatly by her death in Verdant Wind (my first playthrough). Even though she wasn't necessarily a "big" part of Claude's route, character-wise, there was definitely something extremely human in all of it. She's flawed. She's not always as strong as she thinks. She's treacherous at times. I don't even at all agree with her path in any sort of way. But by all means, she's an amazing character. I really didn't expect that I'd like her that much.
Dimitri not seeking peace in Crimson Flower: I'm not surprised. There's a throw away conversation with an NPC in the Monastery during Crimson Flower that talks about Rhea going mad after the war broke out, spouting nonsense. We know Rhea is a cold hearted person who is willing to do whatever she can to remain in power, and to get what she wants. The Parle in Azure Moon is partly because Dimitri is being guided by Byleth, whom is clearly a force of good in both Edelgard and Dimitri's life. Rhea on the other hand is unrelenting. That's also why Edelgard in Azur Moon isn't relenting either: She doesn't have the guiding light of Byleth on her side. But, this is also probably why Edelgard doesn't seek to parle too: Rhea's got Dimitri in her grasp. Dimitri is in many way's Rhea's Puppet.
I'm gonna just repost what I said before with a bit of revision. My morals and ethics aside, Edelgard is a pretty great character as an antagonist with some neat moments when shes the protagonist. Oh and this time for real, I look foward to you doing Claude and (hopefully Rhea) next. They are both great characters who deserve more attention. I also forgot to add my addendum when I found out Ghast was gonna do Claude next. Finally Ghast can talk about that time Claude defeated that wicked CEO.
@@biandanxious3438 Um...you misunderstood me then. I said morals and ethics aside. Meaning I personally do find Edelgard to be a villain, but I still think they are a good character. Just because a character is meant to be "morally grey" doesn't inherently mean you can only see them that way.
@@biandanxious3438 idk what you mean. Are you saying people shouldnt act as though their belief that insert lord is evil is fact? If so I agree. They arent god, and even if they were, I decide what's right and wrong. However I find character discussions like Edelgard great, cause they go in depth about a character as a whole. That's usually a sign of good writing. These character discussions also do a good job of weeding out people who agree with ethics and morals such as Els. I dont like utilitarians who go that far. Especially those who unironically think she did nothing wrong. That said she isnt the first or last character that does this. She is a another Lelouch, Arvis, and Lyon. Some other character will be too. I look forward to more characters like her.
The sheer amount of toxicity surrounding Edelgard caused me to delete Twitter which was the best decision I've ever decided to do. However it also has led me to dislike 3H more than I would have. I like the game but it or rather toxic idiots ended up causing me more headaches than probably every other game. I couldn't say I enjoyed Edelgards character in the slightest without being screeched at so I simply distanced myself from the game and now have a bitter taste in my mouth anytime I try playing it. Thats why it took me so long to watch this great video. I just want to enjoy the games and characters in peace but I can't discuss it with hardly anyone without getting fed up.
Edelgard is my favorite character by far, and it angers me so much that she gets hate for killing. She killed strategically as a part of a war so LITERALLY CREATE DEMOCRACY and Dimitri killed indiscriminately in horrible ways for five years and fought to maintain imperialism, The caste system, and never knew about or dealt with TWSITD. Even though Arundel died, he wasn’t the organization, there were still leaders like Myson in shambala. The hate she gets makes literally no sense, and if you don’t agree with her, appreciate her as the near perfectly written villain. Sheesh
@@pedantickilljoy I agree completely. For some reason I find people try to bring politics into it which doesn't make much sense and try to call her a fascist clearly not knowing what they are. She's a really complex character. I wouldn't say she did nothing wrong however all 3 of the lords were wrong in their own ways. I also find it funny that Dimitri went around killing indiscriminately and his fans go "oh its ok he got better" the absolute hypocrisy. And like you said even if you don't agree with her there's no denying she is a well written character. I only wish that her route didn't get shafted like it did. 3H added a much appreciated moral grey after the cluster fuck that was "Corrin can do no wrong" of Fates.
Amazing video, ghast! While I already enjoyed the first version, this second version is definitely an improvement. The crimson flower sections, in particular, were much more thorough and I felt that your points came across with significantly more clarity. I also think it says a lot that you were willing to accept feedback and put in a ton of effort to improve the video as much as possible. This documentary has definitely helped me to appreciate Edelgard more as a character. I'm looking forward to the Claude video! :)
Whoa a youtube video with DLC nice Edit: I agree with a lot of the new additions to this version aswell as the general flow of the video 10 out of 10 would watch again
As a huge fan of both Edelgard and Dimitri, I never understood how people could bring themselves to hate one and love the other (usually hating Edelgard and loving Dimitri). The irony is that both of them actually want the same things: To bring down the systematic oppression that weaker and lower class face. They simply see different things as the cause. Edelgard sees the Church as the oppressor (and TWSITD), while Dimitri sees Edelgard and pointless war (pointless to him) as the oppressor. They could both actually agree on the issue of Crest prejudice, as in Hopes Dimitri himself even says he also finds the Church and Crest system flawed and wrong. I truly wished they could talk and find middle ground and learned each other’s actual perspectives because them as a team would be unstoppable. Dismantling the church (though ideally through showing people like Seteth, Flayn, Catherine, and Gilbert the harm the Church does and dismantling it mostly peacefully), working with Hanneman to allow Crests to be usable by anyone, and then taking on TWSITD together.
Crimson Flowers shortness, and not including the war against the Agarthans, make it feel like the route was an afterthought they added on afterwards. I'm still very disappointed and upset that Crimson Flower didn't let us then go to destroy Those Who Slither In The Dark afterwards.
I see the failings of the Crimson Flower route to be a product of trying to make all the routes necessary to get the full story. They couldn't have a shambalah chapter in Crimson Flower or Azure Mood because then Verdant Wind wouldn't have anything to reveal. I kinda feel like the Verdant Wind route was tacked on because they didn't want to look like they were rehashing Fates, but when they realized it had no real plot relevance they cut all the Shambalah stuff from the other routes to give it something. Like think about it, if Crimson Flower and Azure Moon both had chapters where they learned about the Agarthians and then killed all of them then Verdant Wind would be the worst route in terms of where Fodlan ended up
Usually I’m not really a fan of longer videos (as in 1h+) but boy do I love these documentaries so much. I have been watching this and Dimitri’s twice now
I got this game last Christmas. I went into it completely blind, knowing only what was on the box. Crimson Flower was my first playthrough, and Edelgard was my first S support. 1:56:00 killed me.
I can see not many people here agree with me and I did start with crimson flower first so I'm a bit biased but I feel like not many people see that from her perspective the world needed to change and the only way to make that change is to sacrifice everything even her own morality at points. In two quotes that I feel describe eldegard very well would be "You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty" and "if thiers an evil you cannot defeat with just means alone would you become evil to defeat the greater evil or stay judge fast and righteous even though it means surrendering to evil." No matter what evil remains so eldegard is willing to become that lesser evil to destroy the greater evil knowing she will called out as a villan. Also you can have your own opinion on CF but I feel like people do forget it was supposed to be the shortest showing that eldegard was right in that her choice is the quickest way to change the world. Everyone can have thier own opinion on her but I will always believe she is the most realistic out of the lords knowing what she's doing isn't necessarily right but knowing in the end it will be worth it as at the end of CF compared to the other routes hers is the one that changes the world the most.
Evil is evil Stregabor . Lesser, greater, middling... it's all the same. I'm not judging you. I haven't done only good in my life either. But now, if I'm to choose between one evil and another... then I'd prefer not choose at all. -Geralt of Rivia This quote immediately comes to mind. You're right though. Problem is she threw everyone else under the bus in the process.
@@hilgigas09 see but that's the difference she is willing to throw aside her own morality to do what she thinks is right for the world well others wouldn't. As proven at the end of black eagles eldegards route has the biggest changes on the world. Hers is the only route that gets rid of the nobility and allows for a reform for society. Obviously she has her flaws im not saying she's perfect but she definitely was the one willing to sacrifice the most in return for a better world for everyone.
thanks faerghast for another in-depth and nuanced discussion video! i really enjoyed your dimitri support science video, adn this one didn't disappoint either. i do want to add on to the point you made about edelgard's use of deception to achieve her goals - i think it ironically makes her quite similar to rhea, even though edelgard despises and wants to destroy her. both edelgard and rhea weave an alternate telling of fódlan's history to create their ideal version of fódlan society; their goals are just opposite to each other. rhea perpetuates the teachings of seiros to preserve peace at the expense of crest-based classism, whereas edelgard lies about the extent of the church's harm to abolish the crest system at the expense of human lives. ignoring rhea's obsession with the idea of reviving her mother, the two rulers are very much alike. also, i think a really interesting idea to explore would be to imagine what fódlan would look like following the events of crimson flower - will edelgard's actions be justified by the establishment of a just and equal society, just like she'd envisioned, or will her efforts be in vain as new power struggles and hierarchies emerge despite the insignificance of crests? we may never know (unless IS develops a direct sequel to three houses 👀), but i believe in the latter. after all, history is bound to repeat itself.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 A lot of people call Edelgard a fascist, which either stems from them arguing in bad faith or failing Political Science 101. She resembles an 18/19th century enlightened autocrat more than any 20th century ideology.
@@Significantpower Fun fact: the word "fascist" comes from an old Latin word that describes a peculiar looking spear from before Rome became a Republic/Empire that Benito Mussilini had his guards carry when he took over the Italian government in his famous "Black Shirt" revolt.
@@Significantpower Yes. I think than the reason behind this impression is because fascism is often associate to dictator pro war. Also : the red color, the emblem of eagle, she command a country frustrating by the lost of her greatness passes, his autoritary look... But in fact, we watch no scene in the game where she act like a dictator.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 I have seen Edelgard compared to Adolf Hitler, who tried to commit genocide, Benito Mussilini, an actual fascist, and Nepoleon Bonaparte, who's law system is still used in France today. I think she has more in common with Otto von Bismarck than any of the three other leaders I see comparisons to.
My 1st route was silver snow so I saw all the good in Edlegard and the bad so when I played crimson flow and azure Moon is was lucky enouth to see both sides and go in without bias. Both share the same beleaves but different methords and experiences putting them against each other.
As I've said before, I hate Edelgard so much, but she's an amazingly written character and me hating her is an achievement, as there's barely any characters in FE that I can say I hate.
While I’d say on the surface the Azure Moon route has a better personal story it’s the background nuance of Edelgard’s hardships and mission make her an amazing character.
As someone who played the game on the crimson route on my first playthrough I didn't see her as the "villain" from the get go though it was made fairly obivous she was the flame emperor as the game went on. Also by overlooking all the "evil" she does like the starting scene having her send bandits to kill of as many of her classmates as possible, which fails horribly to some degree since it almost ends with her getting killed as well unless the MC had the time power to save her. What striked me as odd as the story progressed was the fact of how clueless Edelgard actually appeared. First of everything she knows seems to be based of what the agarthans tells her, what little infromation she's been able to find from historical records and the history passed down in the imperial family. For instance up until the end she believes the story told by the church about the crests, that crests was something given by the goddess and that this fact has messed up the worldy order and thus crests should be abolished completely or at least the way people hold them in high regards and gives people preferential treatment should be removed. So I just couldn't help but wonder if her ideals and justification is simply all built on false information. There is a lot of truth in the way the church had mostly likely created or at least started by them changing the creations and usage of crests. There is also the fact that she appears to suffer from at least some stockholm syndrom with the agarthans seeing as they were the one's who kidnapped her and her family and did those horrible experiments to them but this in turn made her join them and hate the church for being the root of crests. There is also the fact that for instance when the agarthans bombs a city with a magic nuke she blames the church for the attack and when the church eventually sets the city in the last battle on fire she appears horrified and states how cruel the church is even though this act is nothing compared to what she or her allies have done for their belief. She is also shown to be extremely zealous in her belief or perhaps to some degree the MC can manage to make her loosen up a bit since before the last battle she will mention that her plan is to destroy Rhea and everything associated with the church and kind of low-key tells the MC that her plan was to also kill them as well once everything was over. However she now has some doubts and is a bit unsure if she will still kill the MC. The ending to my understanding has Sothis sacrifice herself to give the MC life which in turn makes the MC truly human and thus makes her no longer have to kill the MC. The reason why I think Sothis sacrifices herself is that from my understanding the MC was born as a stillborn thus they were dead on arrival but the flame crest somehow functioned as a fake heart but in the ending the flame crest is seemingly absorbed or teleported away but it ends with the MC's heart restarting. The flame crest might have been what was preventing the MC's heart from beating but I can't imagine how killing Rhea would remove it since it's tied to Sothis and the crests are seemingly tied to a person even if the one it comes from is dead. This part might just be me not knowing enough. What is weird however in my book is the fact that from everything we are shown and told humans are the root of all evil that happens in the world no matter which side you really stand on. While the history from when Sothis and the Nabatean's arrived is blurry at best since I don't actually believe it's clear if they come from outside of the planet or simply arrived from across the sea since Fodlan is the continent the game is set in but it is often mentioned that there are or might be other continents out there. So at least I couldn't conclude that they are aliens from the information given. But even if they are aliens to this world it is unclear how the Nabatean's supossed ruling was since from my understanding the only thing they did was to destroy the Agarthans and then leave humans to do as they willed I mean how else does it make sense with the tribal state most humans are said to have lived in before Nemesis. But yeah this part is pretty much untouched and unknown so moving on my point is that the whole crest situation was created by the humans, humans then went to abuse and missuse the crests which led to many tragedies and then lastly Edelgard does what she does to remove the church oppression and tyranny of the crests. I mean all of it was the machination of the Agarthans in their war against the Nabateans and I just can't get behind the Agarthans even though they are supossedly the human side of things since how they operate and act makes me wonder if it wasn't a good thing if their kingdom was destroyed. Seeing as how they act and opereate it wouldn't suprise me if the Agarthans society was based on a ruling system where everyone except the high nobility was a lower caste and where their mages were closer to nazi scientists where they would use prisoners/slaves for inhumane experiments or simply doing torture for fun. Now this may be biased on how they turned out but seeing as they have all pretty much stayed the same for thousands of years it's hard to imagine them changing their ways even after the Nabateans are gone which is pretty much what happens in Edelgards route. The power shown by the Agarthans is also so much greater then hers it's actually hard to imagine the epilogue which kinda states her winning against them in a cloaks and daggers approach since in that end there is no apparent info given that we know about the Agarthans city or have any way to stop the magic nukes. But anyway this became a bit longwinded at this point but thanks for the vid!
"The goddess never gets directly involved" I imagine Byleth just sitting awkwardly in a corner going "yeah never no such thing as divine pulse that saved you from getting literally axed or anything hahaha"
Well we humans think that way. We claim god doesn’t exist because we can’t see and touch him, but he’s actually directing our lives and helping us in so many ways.
@@xAvitaLT The very same yes, depending upon which structure you follow that is. Though nearly all major denomination at least within the Abrahamic Faith's accept as it was stated the disparity with God no longer directly meddling as in the times of the old testament. Free Will and all that, so I'm afraid amateur theology that's been used since the middle ages will not work.
@@xAvitaLT Free will is a fickle mistress. God leaves us to our devices and we choose the stupid route, its hardly God's fault for our own stupidity. I'm a Deist so, my view on God is that of a benevolent but indifferent creator, with my own philosophy thrown in that I won't go into right now. In short, it isn't fair to treat God as this maniacal maniac who left us to slaughter each other like its some sadistic game, when that's far from the truth no matter how you slice it.
@@xAvitaLT yes and no. He is constantly helping and guiding us but he will not spoil us and a lot of those wars come about because we don't like to listen.
"It's ironic. The woman who seeks to free a continent by toppling a church - finds her peace in the goddess' reincarnation." Holy smokes, how did I never see it like that
I mean it's only sort of incidentally that way, Edelgard nor Byleth are aware of this until much into their ventures, and Byleth never acts as or for the goddess in their route, not to mention Byleth's Crest Stone disappears in Crimson Flower's ending anyway.
It's no irony, for Edelgard never opposed the godess, but the church of said godess, its leaders and its tyrannical rulership I think I remember Edelgard actually saying that she is ok with faith in the godess, and maybe indicating that she might be a believer herself
@@blackshaddow5005 I think it's Manuela's supports, where is shown that she has quite the negative view of the believers, assuming all of them do nothing other than wait for the goddess to do something for them, but later learn to accept that some people takes the spiritual support to be able to fight for themselves. (probably where you saw she saying that)
If only the Black Eagles route was 4 chapters longer, & let you actually PARTICIPATE in taking out the Agarthans. Wouldn't solve ALL of the route's problems, but could still salvage it in many ways. Edelgard potentially learning more about the Children of the Goddess & their history, confronting her about Jeralt's death, fighting her uncle, her reaction to Shambhala, her opinion on Nemesis, etc. Honestly surprised the DLC Pass never gave Black Eagles more story content, even if it had to be paid for.
Yeah.It's pretty strange that Edelgard never gets to learn the real history from the source(who was actually there).It would've made her a lot more sympathetic if she realized that Nemesis was no hero and that Rhea,for all her flaws and mistakes,had good reason to fight against him.
@@infinitedreamer9359 This is the irony where Rhea and Edelgard are actually parallel. Two people who are going to huge lengths to fight for their version of the right answer, and would make morally questionable decisions if that's what it takes. The difference with Rhea is just that she was portrayed more negatively throughout the story (the weirdness from just the start of the story, her "crazy" look, etc) that it makes it more obscured that Edelgard's pretty much the other side of the same coin.
Yeah considering how in other routes of the game, the alliance and the resistance army were able to take out those who slither in the dark in a single chapter and crashed their ambitions with the full of shamballa I highly doubt the empire would be given four chapters to deal with them.
People have all these complex, 500-word essays on why one lord is better than another, and here I am like: Edelgard: She's cool and small Dimitri: He's nice and blonde Claude: He's fun and chill
@Merciless Freak I mean sure it would be cool to get more of some lesser known nintendo franchises but I still enjoy fire emblem games so im still gonna hope for more but im not gonna be upset if we dont get more
Accurate. His personality is a funny one but the game literally tells you at the beginning that that's a facade. "His easy smile is striking, but that smile doesn't reach his eyes." Twenty minute Claude documentary, for sure.
kinda yeah. theres also rushing issues so some parts are them struggling and other parts them having to take away from the story to make deadline. its a shame
I feel its a lot of patchwork. The character stuff is always grand, and the story stuff somewhat is too, but you often have to patch pieces together from the different routes for maximum effect. An odd feeling when a lot of variables can be different path to path and whatnot.
I also really think they shouldn't have allowed so many characters to get recruited. Like what Ghast mentioned about Edelgard not receiving much retribution from her deceptive habits, the recruitment system, if you recruited a lot of people, makes it feel very unpunished that she literally just deceived all of them (besides Hubert) and moments later most just join her cause anyway. Especially in Edelgard's route, it would be a lot more powerful not to have that many students especially immediately after the reveal, and maybe have a combination of the impact of having to kill a lot of characters, or having to regain the trust of others.
@@sobacco7865 I think its a lot more dramatic/powerful if there is a mixture of students who join and who do not. Its just compelling to see all the various personalities and characters with there motivations choose various ways. With that said, it doesn't bother me much, largely because its not uncommon for people to come together under one mindset with their peers. Be it for fitting in, or skewed perspectives. The game almost reinforces this on how characters can be swayed in various direction based on how they or others convince them. Alas, I think there are cases where more characters should have been hard locked to paths based on their own personal beliefs. Some of them seem no brainer if they would or would not join Edelgard for example.
@@yashkeshavpatnam1852 Technecally the reason why Edelgard's father is so bad is because he's ill and has other people over his head preventing him from being a good father. From what we see of him it seems to me at least that he wished he had been able to be a better father but had strings that were stopping him from doing so.
My head canon is that they couldn’t hold the monastery without some religious backing. They instead put Byleth as the martyr that was the goddess, that Rhea rejected. When Byleth returns, the plans change to making a church that makes Rhea the false idol and to slowly adjusts people to a church slowly divorced from the state.
"because the mole people had goddamn nukes and imagine how telling you about something like this would affect morale before taking on Rhea and Dimitri"
@@floricel_112 well yes that would be edelgards answer probably but the drama that would ensue would be really good in terms of character and story development, and would be a better epilogue than the "and they lived happily ever after uwu" ending
@@golfer435 well thats not what i meant, the story would remain the same until the end, so the rhea arc would still be there. but the epilogue of the crimson flower says something around the lines of "edelgard, the professor and hubert dealt with the agarthans" in just a sentence, but i think it would have been better if we could play those parts of the story as well like in Verdant Wind, which would also give an opportunity to us to see Edelgard finally reveal her lies to her comrades and stuff
@@bullseye5262 That's a silly argument. Bad people fight for "what they believe in" all the time. She's not "bad", but neither is she "good." That's what makes her interesting.
@@puddin4884 interesting assumption but I never she was “right” either nor was I arguing lol. I love the internet how people create narratives out of blank statements, it’s endearing.
Timestamps: 0:00 Introduction 3:45 Origins of a Dream Part 1: The Crests 6:31 Origins of a Dream Part 2: Blackened Heart 8:33 Origins of a Dream Part 3: Rise of the Flame Emperor 19:13 The Red Rose: Support Analysis 43:39 Crimson Flower Part 1: Dimitri 59:00 Crimson Flower Part 2: Rhea 1:14:21 Crimson Flower Part 3: Story Criticism 1:37:15 Byleth Part 1: Kinship of Flame 1:45:22 Byleth Part 2: The Ashen Connection 1:59:37 Conclusion 2:02:09 Closing Thoughts
@@Kris_King That's also one of the reasons why she fights against everyone too, because she has not only suffered personally but also witnessed the crest system fail several other people. Like Jeritza, and Dorothea, just to name two of the many.
Man her reasons for doing what she did is another reason why edelgard is my favorite fire emblem character(I know hot take and I love a lot of other characters as well)
I find it ironic that Rhea blocked the printing press, expecially when in the real world the first book to be spat out by Gutenburg’s printing press was the Bible.
Wth, pls don't compare the church in this game with our world vatican church. They are totally different. Rhea's driving force is her own trauma of genocide against her races.
@@fitriaamel438 Now I'm Italian, I literally come from a family of catholic believers. The similarities are staggering, not one to one, but they are more than enough to not call them "coincidence"
@@ilpuntodigf for the fact that Op mentioned Bible, it's just so wrong alrdy. The game doesn't even have the equivalent of that. And no I don't see any similarities besides surface levels.
@@fitriaamel438 The Book of Seiros basically is a Bible because it tells stories of those who were significant to the history of its religion and has parts dedicated to it that outlines how its followers should act and worship the main deity.
Rhea blocked the printing press out of a justifiable fear that humans were apt to attempt genocide on her species if they found themselves in a position to do so (since they had done so in the past). She had a completely different set of circumstances and motivations than the IRL church of the 16th century in Europe.
The scene were Byleth kills Edelgard had me shocked how brutal the protagonist is... Rewatching the video just makes me sad... "I wanted... to walk with you--." The blade cut of her sentence and her life, emotionless the way a meteor falls through a cloud.
@@burakkaankarakoc3879 I have also heard about the price Bilet wants in turn for his services, you must provide him as many woman as he requests to satisfy his sexual desires. No really, I am not kidding.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 Give me a Three Houses sequel after an FE4 remake where you deal with Slytherin in CF, rebuild Faerghus, including getting rid other 2000 plus thieves or something, and have a good deal of diplomacy with other countries, and rebuild Duscur in Dedue's memory, get Sreng and Dagda to stop attacking, maybe through, like, an Arena Ferox situation.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 I always thought that Claude would have been on better use if he has his own game where we can see him fighting for his goals instead of having that in the background.
Edelgard really made this game for me. One of the most fascinating characters in a video game and discovering different sides of her along with the other lords across various routes made this beautiful mess of a game work for me. I really hope in 10 years we get a remake where they give tlc to all the routes (and actually finish crimson flower).
One thing that I appreciated when playing Crimson Flower is the time when I saw the Crest of Flames proc on Edelgard before I got the support conversation about her having that crest. I convinced myself I hadn’t seen that happen. It must have been a signifier of a different crest, or maybe I had seen it wrong? Or it was a glitch? But no, she had the Crest of Flames! And that made her story and Lysithia’s make more sense, because at that point, I know that the group that did the Crest experiments on Lysithia had just left once they figured out she could have two crests, as if they were confirming something and then went on to something else. Turns out, they went on to Edelgard. So disturbing, really. But that was really well done.
I found this video to flow much better and seem to have a much more even hand. Excellent work and its great to see consideration to make something better. Looking forward to whatever you choose to do next. Hope it was an excellent nap
First of all, it's so cool that you took a great and interesting video that you weren't happy with and improved it. You clearly have a lot of passion for this, and it came out great. Second of all, just gonna casually re-post my comment from the first iteration... The great thing about Three Houses is that it's a tragedy caused by unwavering beliefs, so if you argue that either side is entirely right or entirely wrong, you are explicitly the villain in Three Houses.
To be fair, the fact that these argument always end up falling back on morality kinda tells you something. These aren't just characters, they are powerful examples of archetypes, clashes of philosophies in almost every way and differing ways to deal with trauma. Dimitri succumbs to his trauma, but admits it, embraces responsibility and overcomes it. Edelgard internalizes her trauma and it drives her every action, yet, she doesn't become the trauma, she's wide awake knowing what she's doing to others and suffers greatly for it, but suffers in secret because even she sometimes questions if what she's doing is right, but can't think of any other way to fix the world, her own trauma (which she carries with her to a point that it's part of her identity) blinds her to the idea of a peaceful reform.
All valid points. I always argue that like the other lords, Edelgard is fundamentally a lord that wants to look after her people. However she knows the darkest side of the corruption in Fodland and that “peaceful negotiations” did nothing to stop it. Instead, those negotiations were used as to hide the insurrection that stripped her father of most of his political power and to mediate the spread of technology by the church. Add that to knowing you will likely not live long, what can you do? Can you really trust a stranger, much less a rival lord, to carry out the reform you sought to make?
@@raphnoble808 on the flip side nothing good ever comes from the "destroy everything and remake it as I see fit" mentality as it is nothing more than control, arrogance, and narcissism. The prospect that any one character knows best is innately ruinous. It does get brought up to her that the world she would make is no different than the world she is in now.
Edelgard is my favorite character, to me she embodies conflict between humans the best and the sheer raw nature of violence that's almost always brought about by polarizing disagreements in ideology between the establishment and those who seek revolution. Revolutionaries were almost never not responsible for one atrocity or immoral act when it came to war either. Were there other options she could have taken? absolutely, were there other options that could have been taken by any given leader in our world to achieve the best outcome? absolutely, are leaders of nations still taking actions that are deemed immoral? absolutely, there are many notable examples of sheer hypocrisy and single mindedness in our world that serve as an example to what Edelgard personifies. The story already has a paragon being Claude. You can hate Edelgard and there's plenty of reason to hate her but in my opinion she's the most human out of all the characters when it comes to what most leaders have been throughout history.
One thing that's incorrect is that TWSITD wanted Dimitri to survive. Gilbert says he found Dimitri more on the brink of death after the attack. They definitely wanted to kill him too, but there is a possibility they utilized his survival later.
@@moltz4866 he's going to be the future king of his territory and the mole ppl wanted conflict between all 3.... That's all there is to it. Dimitri was supposed to die but didn't; however it was little concern and later thales "used/uses" it to his advantage. Not unbelievable given their behaviour
Seems strange that Dimitri would be on the "brink" of death at all. If Lambert was decapitated, why not do the same with Dimitri? I wouldn't put it past the Agarthans to keep Dimitri alive on purpose. They just made it look convincing enough that Dimitri was a target so that when Gilbert found Dimitri, he would be "saved" from the event.
I love Edelgard as a character. I don't like playing Crimson Flower route because it feels incomplete, and because I find it hard to believe that Byleth would follow the Flame Emperor, who is in cahoots with the people who killed their father. I also find it hard to believe that Byleth would turn against Rhea, Flayn and Seteth after all the time being allies. It needed more to make that turn convincing. The only way I can play it is to have a male Byleth and head cannon that he was in love with Edelgard. Otherwise, it's just a stretch too far for me. I'm also a basic b@tch and love Dimitri 😂 But Edel is a fantastic protag and super bad ass.
Yeah, the game definitely needed more time to make it convincing byleth would join edelgard, but I think that would mostly be because of her involvement with the people who caused Jeralt’s death. If we take that aside I think it’s plausible byleth would choose her. While byleth was allied with the church, they likely spent more time with edelgard than they did the church members. Plus at that point they had found Jeralt’s journal, realized Rhea was hiding important info from them and the public in general (such as the banned books in the DLC), and could’ve thought Rhea was acting creepy after fusing with sothis. The game feeds you enough info that could make the player dislike Rhea/the church, especially if you have the DLC, so it’s not too unbelievable imo. Then again, I also romanced edelgard in my first CF run so maybe byleth was really just a simp who supports both women’s rights and women’s wrongs 🤷♀️
Honestly, my favorite thing about 3 houses is all 3 lords are actually pretty great... there were no real villians/heroes between the 3... only victims
i have a lot of things to say about el here but tbh i find it exhausting to talk about her in this fandom. all i can say is that wether people love her or hate her, no one can deny the fact that she’s a complex enough character to polarize the fandom with some saying she’s good and others saying she’s not. i have my own opinion but i’m not gonna say it. instead, i will say that i love that there’s a standout female lord in the franchise who isn’t one-note and generic good girl jrpg protagonist and also she happens to wield a freaking axe. it’s not every day that these things happen. also, dimitri is best boy and i’m a marianne simp
As someone who loves Edelgard with all of her flaws I proudly say Crimson Flower is the weakest route. This was the first I've heard of a possible Shamballa chapter for Crimson Flower. Heck Edelgard has a more legitimate reason to go there than Claude does.
That make sense than Claude fight to Shamballa. One of the thematic of Three Houses is the importance of the truth. Silver snow and Azur Moon have a bitter ending because is your payoff to stay in the ignorance of the Fodlan history. In Crimson flower you have a more important part of the truth, but you miss major details from the history. Even if it was very frustrating, finish the game with a cold war against the true evil is the payoff to don't know all the truth. In Verdant wind we are in the quest of the truth, for this reason we destroy Shamballa AND fight Nemesis, the man behind the tourment of Fodlan, in the most joyful and epic fight of the game. This is our recompense to search and find this truth.
Yeah, I would have loved to see a CF that had more to it. Strange to say, I don't think they put ENOUGH effort into Edelgard's flaws. She kept having to tell you through script about how flawed she is and it's not shown with much subtlety, which is an advantage AM was given with better production and cutscenes where you can have a lot of different emotions shown at the same time in Dimitri, but Edelgard never really got the same chance (imo) -- besides just thinking after the fact about what emotions she may have been feeling.
@@fishnutz5196 And logically the route where you heard the less "unfullfiled" or other sad theme. But I don't consider Verdant Wind like the "best" route, more like the most satisfiying route
@@arkhamlerouge8450 thats true it all depends on what your after. If you want a deep dive into the lore i think VW is best for that. If you want a deep personal story then i think AM is your go to
If anything, fictional characters are the biggest sources of propaganda lol. Their fandom are rabid and die hard, and will do things like saying "X did nothing wrong."
I'd contest the idea that Edelgard is being motivated by a desire for revenge, given that she puts Ferdinand's father under house arrest instead of having him executed and she has a lecture question with Byleth where the preferred answer is to remove Rhea's political power, not actually harm her, but otherwise this is a really impressive overhaul. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's very well thought-out. Thanks for taking the time to do so much work on this!
I think she realises that to keep noble support she can't really go around executing any aristocrat that abuses their power. As for Rhea, stripping someone of their power shows a much more benevolent and fair rulership, so it's the better solution if you want to not make enemies and give them justification to go against you.
Personally I'm glad I started Verdant Wind so I wasn't quite as biased about the Edelgard and Dimitri viewpoints in the community when I went into the other routes
I dont really understand how people get so bias. I did Azure Moon first then Crimson Flower but i made sure to play through CF without taking AM into thought. Each route is its only story and i feel people take too many bias into account
See, playing Verdant Wind prior to Crimson Eagle actually made me strongly biased against Edelgard. Because while she was talking about why she is doing what she does I was literally going “she’s wrong about that, that’s incorrect, oh she’s totally wrong, etc”
@@Rushboat yeah i can see that. Cause Verdant Wind is the route that tells you the real backstory of the relics crests etc and what Edelgard says is very misled. Likely from TWS lying to her
Honestly can’t stand eldelgard, I feel like if she pulled Dimitri and Claude aside and met with them in private with some evidence of her claims all this could’ve been avoided. And she probably could’ve gotten them on board for getting rid of the crest system too. It’s extremely annoying that she could’ve proved what the church did, what TWS in the dark did, what her family did. And instead went the route she did. Secondly if she really doesn’t like the whole crest society when she became emperor she could’ve enacted a lot of what she wanted bringing the people without crests on par with the people who do have them. At least in her own land anyway.
I don’t think Dimitri knowing that edlegard had nothing to do with Duscur originally would matter, as even if he knew she initially had no involvement and still chose to align herself with those who killed both of their parents is kind of a shitty backstab no matter how you spin it. I think he would have gone crazy with rage against her regardless considering their previous relationship and though the betrayal wasn’t as deep as he originally thought, it’s still a massive betrayal
True, also I don’t think Dimitri believes that she personally masterminded it. He blames her because she was (albeit unwillingly and indirectly) responsible. The tragedy of Duscur was done to give Edelgard more power, he plays the clip of Thales saying so. 47:25 he says they were killed FOR her, he blames her because she knew what happened and still allied with them which Dimitri interpreted as her condoning, or at least tolerating, such a slaughter.
Honestly, Three House suffers from overreaching in its story Crimson Flower tells a complete story yes but suffers from being limited because its focus was so spread out after the time-skip due to four separate routes. On the whole, confronting Edelgard thing I would like a moment where El explained the Insurrection of Seven and how much power TWSITD had in Empire, and how most of the parents of her housemates complicit in it and why she was doing what doing and for some great understanding between the group.
Still in the process of watching! You really said "peace was never an option 🦆🔪" I will say, though, I love your segment on Dimi/Gard and it bolsters your criticism of why Edelgard didn't reach out to him about this in the Battle of Tailtean from the first video. Really expresses the tragedy of the two being at odds regardless of route.
Fascist has completely lost its meaning: it's just a word people use to describe someone they don't like. And there's a difference between "villain" and "antagonist".
There's still clear meaning to the word Fascist. People who censors the truth, people who shuts down discussion because they disagree with what is being discussed, people who are against free speech, people who dox others, ... etc. Those people are fascists.
That is, I agree it was deliberate on the writing to make Edelgard do some stuff like fail to see the “humanity” in her enemies purely on their race. Still wish, like the reversal you bring up, stuff like this was actually implemented.
Edelgard is easily the character that affected me the most among any other character in any piece of art. As an author myself, I will say that the best ever character I've ever written is the one that was inspired by Edelgard von Hresvelg. As a tribute, I named this character Edelgard as well and the more I give her some depth, the more I'm happy to have created such a character.
And I Beyer your character îs just as mediocre written as edelgard. Edelgard was honestly mediocre written, especially since the game didn't even try to make her dividend, since rhea was awfully written în The time skip. She barely îs mentioned în azure moon, she is an exposition bot în verdant Wind, and în crimson Flower rhea îs downgrade to an angry Karen with mommy issues. And edelgard lacks any reasons to dislike her other than "I like Dimitri better". There are thousands of characters that commited atrocities for a better future written way better than edelgard. But I guess you are that type of author who likes cute girls that are strong.
So the way I've always viewed the three houses games: Byleth with Sothis' power is experiencing every possible timeline divergence; not just the choice of which of the children they will be the teacher of, but which possible timeline they want to see through as the future. Dimitri is all about preserving the status quo with subtle changes; the acknowledgment of the church is the reason why the kingdom of fargus got its power quite like how the Sun's light is reflected off the Moon, and what is the Moon without phases of darkness. Claude is all about opening borders and finding new perspectives including breathing new life and change into the country but only as a passing unseen Wind. Edelgard wanted to burn away all of the corruption of TWSITD who have been hiding under the stones of the church in order to make the future brighter for those who deserve it, much like Flowers growing after wildfires. If Byleth does not choose any of those three futures, we get the cold comfort of the church as it was but now with Byleth at the helm, much like undisturbed Snow.
Why did i choose Edelgard? Was it because she's hot? No. Was it because....well....is she hot? NO again. So why did i choose Edelgard? Because we both Hate and i mean absolutely HATE Religious Zelotes. And there's only one way to permanently get rid of Religious Zelotes....and like it or not Edelgard knows how to get rid of them. And she's damn good at it. I don't hate Religious people and neither does Edelgard, but we do hate people who use Religion as a means of gaining power and manipulating the masses. That is why i chose Edelgard. I could've backed away when the Flame Emperor was reviled to be her, but when i realized what she was fighting for i was 100% one board.
Right there with you. After Rheas phrase about "what happens to those that point their swords to the heavens"...i was very anti chutch of seiros. I was just lucky enought to pick the house that would allowed me to do what i would eventually want. If i had picked the other two houses i would've losted my mind by chapter 12.
Beautiful work! Edelgard deserves nothing less. I love El as a villain who I can empathize with. Sort of like how I view Light Yagami, and Lelouch, or even Thanos in a certain view. Not in a edgy sort of way. But more of a "I totally understand where she is coming from" and "If I were in her shoes I would probably do the same"- way. I just get tired of listening to people trying to reduce her as the just "hero". We have a million just heroes, but we only get a villain like El once in a azure moon. I love all three of my headstrong, depressed, scheming children equally.
I meant to do crimson flower first but then got locked into silver snow. And like the entire time I was like "Damn I wanted to walk with you too. But now I'm stuck with a sad dragon dilf"
Saying that Arandel planned for Dimitri to start a war is a WAY bigger leap in logic than blaming Edelgard for Duscur... In fact, it really doesn't make any sense... Given that Edelgard planned to attack long before Dimitri would have ever figured out for sure it was Arandel, the fact that Dimitri did research on his own, he wasn't "fed" crumbs any more than anyone else who investigated, and the fact that the coup that took place sided WITH the empire, had they simply successfully killed Dimitri, there would have been ZERO resistance from Faerghus, allowing them to focus all their efforts in the church and the Leicester Alliance. Leaving Dimitri alive would be UTTERLY stupid... Had Dimitri died at Duscur, Edelgard would have won the war before Byleth ever woke up...
Love the video, I think the criticisms on CF is well-founded, but I really appreciate your acknowledgement of Caspar's possible involvement in calling out Edelgard's lie after Arianrhod. Some deserved appreciation for my favorite boy!
I would honestly really love to see a critical analysis of Claude! I find him just as interesting as the other Lords and I'd love an indepth look at his character and motivations.
Finally getting to watch this (I'm preparing for doctoral exams). As someone who did a blind run of Crimson Flower first, specifically aiming to S-rank Edelgard, even without the DLC and the things I now know about the game and story I loved Edelgard. The issue, for me, is that a story that could do her justice and adequately address the injustices of which she is a part is simply not a story that Three Houses as it reached us has the capacity to tell. There is simply no way to treat her character fairly in any route without extensive, self-motivated inquiry and contemplation by the player, who can't pursue any of these unresolved questions by playing the game itself, as you point out so clearly. Protect babygard tho for sure
You clearly put your heart into this one and deserve all the more support for having the balls to take a step back, re-evaluate your thoughts and rework this absolute masterpiece. Happy to say I helped work on it with ya man it turned out freaking amazing!
As an outsider to 3 houses. Sure sounds like the game makers had to cut down Crimson Flower story to prevent overshadowing the other paths. The point of 3 leaders is there equal and not possible for 3 dreams to come fruition.
Edelgards route was my first playthrough of the game, I didn’t even know it could be missed unless you explicitly chose to side with Rhea in the tomb. Because she was my first route I was shown a horrifically tragic character rather than a monster who would do anything to win had I chosen to side with Dimitri first, and I think that contrast of her characterization is why I still love her as a character and why I am so upset that her route was so clearly cut short
Edelgard is so hard to talk cause she is so good as an antagonist, but so underwhelming as a protagonist. Crimson Flower is super rush and kind bad but what truly sour her character for my in CF was the lack of interaction with Rhea, cause at the end of the day Edelgard is Rhea. Both are born from tragedies. Both are motivated by said tragedies, trying to create a world that is just and correct for them, both lied to the masses for the own interest, both have a savior complexes, etc. Making Rhea crazy just takes out all the nuance in both characters (Edelgard is an interest characters With a lot of interesting themes going but CF plot does nothing with them or just remove them) The paralelism between the two was the thing i was more interested to see develop (i played CF after GD and AM) and i got nothing, which is specially ironic when connection is the one thing that both want could be found in each other, literally the one person that could have understand what they were feeling. The ending of CF shouldnt be "yay lizard lady is death, now lets genocide the mole man" It should be: 1-A tragedy, Edelgard killing the only one who could understand her for the sake of her goal. 2- A cautionary tale of what Edelgard could become if she had commited the same mistakes that Rhea Or 3- A cyclical tragedy, with Edelgard with knowledge or oblivious to it, having commited the same errors than Rhea has just set the stage for a new Edelgard to rise and take down the new Rhea, her. I think that my biggest problem with Edelgard has never been the character but the writting of CF. She so interesting and she has a ton things to say but CF just does nothing with it.
@@sageofanys3476 I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what i'm isn't it anymore and what's it seems weird and scary and It'll happen to you. Rhea to Edelgard, probably.
I don't think CF made Rhea "crazy" at the end, it makes sense that by the end of the route Rhea had completely lost faith in humanity and her only goal became stopping the empire at all costs, honestly if I was in her place I would have done the same
@@daz1543 maybe crazy isnt that out of character for Rhea, but that just makes her final confrontation kinda lame cause there is no arc, not emotional conflict. What made AM final battle so effective is that is the conclusion of Dimitri's arc, everything is paid off at the end, even Edelegard has an interesting develop at the end, was her last attack a final act of defiance or after watching Dimitri conquering his demons she decided that her dying would be the best path for Fodlan? And thats good, like really good, and i would loved to see something like that between Edelgard and Rhea, i would even take Rhea fall from grace as a cautionary tell for Edelgard. What could she become (The hegemon) in the purse of her ideals, but neither the game nor the characters acknowledge the parallelism between the two And what is even worst is the game actually does this with dimitri, in any other route he dies like a dog in the streets, alone and full of anger, its just in AM after conquering his inner demons and his flaws that he can actually move forward. Edelgard is built the same built the same but she has not conflict to overcome. I did go in a little tangent but my point is that it would have been more interesting if Rhea had a little more to do in CF.
Make no mistake, I am vehemently opposed to Edelgard in this conflict, and I think she's caused nothing short of bullshit suffering, like most good-natured-but-flawed unite-the-world emperors actually. The funny thing is, in Langrisser 2, I'm ironically a supporter of that game's big empire, and at least THAT conflict was a war that was already present, and it was...clean, in a sense. Edelgard's war comes out of Goddamn nowhere, involves three nations and an entire religion, and was just an even GREATER clusterfuck than the war present in Langrisser 2, even the dark demonic threat wasn't as chaotic to deal with. However, I am watching this video because, ultimately, I do not hate Edelgard. I just want my criticisms to be fair and based in fact and reality, nothing more, nothing less. I want to understand Edelgard so I can truly express how I detest her choices, or hell, even gain newfound positives and respect, or subsequently negatives if necessary. I am critical, but I am fair, I would NOT demonize her like so many of her haters would. I just simply disagree with her on a fundamental level, not her intentions or ideals maybe (not entirely anyway, since she makes perfect fucking sense on some things lets be real), but I want to critique her fairly.
Can I just say...thank you. This is what I am always trying to say about Edelgard and can't her motives for starting the war just don't hit right and there aren't many things that could easily fix it.
Almost 100% sure that Claude fans are the only people watching these kind of videos. Feels like his path leaves out so much juicy plot but I’m afraid I can’t deny Claude’s path feels definitive from a gameplay perspective. Narrative seemed to be Intelligent System’s second priority when making 3H. But the community enriches it’s narrative and I really enjoy the long videos like this. Im watching Dimitri’s next. Keep up the great work and hope that everything is going well with you
Edelgard sort of reminds me a bit of Queen Elisabeth in the first season of The Crown. She was never supposed to be Queen, but circumstance changed her life completely. Edelgard's life isn't just changed due to circumstance, she became heir due to horrendous torture of her and her family, all so someone could create the "ubermench." Which is why I find the "Edelgard is Faschist" argument to be odd. Edelgard seems to want to make everyone either not have crests, or have access to crests - but not through eradication of one or the other. She's a revolutionary yes, but more of the French Revolution kind: War to end past prejudices for a better future. Not a perfect future, just better.
Well said. There is something you need to realize, even if Crimson Flower had more chapters similar to Azure Moon or Verdant Wind, it would possible to leave those loose ends remain untied. Your questions might still be there. Edelgard sole purpose to deceive her house was really to further whatever agenda she has. Lying about Arianrhod, might be to as to not freak out her classmates. The only reason the Black Eagles follow her was because the professor did as well. I played Silver Snow as my last route, all they mention in Silver Snow is how they want to stop Edelgard. Probably because the professor wanted to stop her as well. Your thoughts are really well received. I find Edelgard to be a very complex and driven house leader that I don't think Fire Emblem has seen before.
Edelgard is one my favorite characters in all of the fire emblem games. I can understand the path she took. Considering she's probably going to die young the only way to change something in that short of time is an extreme revolution. That's my opinion though. i like all the routes but edelgard is the most interesting to me
I love Edelgard so much.. she’s amazing and I understand why people hate her, but she definitely became my favorite lord. Her views are amazing, and I always go for her side. Albeit I love all the three houses lords.
I used to like her moderately, in fact after finishing AM & VW, especially after her boss fight I come to google specifically for 'how to save her'. But instead found a lot of 'Edel did nothing wrong' which make me associate her char with some rude ppl who insist she did nothing wrong. In the end I dislike her just for that alone. If only ppl can be civil like you, explaining her good and bad in good balance. And while I like your explanation of her,I slightly disagree on some points about the church/Rhea.
I posted this elsewhere but this is my analysis: The fact is that Edelgard is a 17 year old girl who, like most 17 year Olds, knows exactly what is wrong with the world and how to fix it. The problem is that, unlike most 17 year Olds, she actually has the power to do it. Knowing her past, I can't say I fault her for her goals, and, given her age, can't blame her for making some poor choices about achieving those goals (an understatement, I know). I'm not saying I endorse or excuse her behavior. She started a war and I'm not convinced she had to. That said, I still understand where she's coming from and have compassion for her. If she had been willing to share the truth with Dmitri, I'm sure he would have had her back. And if she'd talked with Claude, maybe he could have helped everyone find a way to convince the church of the need for reform. But she didn't know who she could trust. Everything about the political machinations of the adults around her was damning evidence that she couldn't trust anyone. Trust was dangerous. Being feared was more reliable. This is what the adults around her taught her. So, the little girl, traumatized and scared, made a decision. She would build a world where nobody would have to suffer as she had ever again. She'd build a world that was safe for herself and those around her. And she'd wouldn't care if she had to be hated to do it. But as she grew older, as the toll of the conflict sank in, that scared little girl realized how reckless and rash her choices had been. She lamented the suffering she caused. Was she a hero? A tyrant? A monster? No. She was a traumatized teenage girl who didn't have the maturity to weird the power she was given, but did the best she could. In the end, I think she chose to see through her goals because to stop halfway would render all the pain she'd caused meaningless. Better to see it through so that the sacrifices aren't in vain. At least, that's what I think.
Ah, it looks like the first big change in the video (from the first version) is in relation to Dimitri. Yeah, it seems like the Edelgard-Dimitri conflict is at the heart of the conflict between fans or haters of the characters, as well. I think the whole "peace was never an option" thing is something that could've been better seen if the scene had a cutscene. Or, incidentally, if Silver Snow had a different endgame. Maybe on that route, deposing Dimitri wouldn't have happened quite the same. TWSITD could've rallied behind Cornelia after Edelgard's death, with them using a still alive Dimitri as a puppet, bloodlusted but unfulfilled. And then there's the addition regarding Rhea and Edelgard's stances on the faith. Tbh, as a person of faith who understands Edelgard's ideals, this anti-theist does bother me a bit. It's not as bad as it could be, but it's still a limiting factor in the story. The story might have been more logical, but less complex, if she actually put more priority on beating TWSITD. Once the pro-empire Alliance parts joined (either after Deirdru, or if the route was changed to have such a thing happen earlier, such as if she was working on those alliances with people like Count Gloucester pre-war), that could've been a good time to be more honest about the threat the Agarthans are (especially considering Arianrhod). She could've had the power to oppose them without a post-game secret war.
![The Dimitri Documentary. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #21] Fire Emblem: Three Houses](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MbACngcWkEE/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Dimitri Documentary. [Fire Emblem: Support Science #21] Fire Emblem: Three Houses](/img/tr.png)
![Xander: How Fire Emblem Fates' Writing Ruined Its Best Character. (1/2) [Support Science #7]](/img/n.gif)
*Correction at 49 minutes: The theory that Dimitri's survival of the tragedy was unintentional shouldn't have been included in this video as its conjecture and should be treated as such. I elaborated more on this point here:* ua-cam.com/video/7qk0rD4D1QE/v-deo.html
This is the Edelgard Support Science Definitive Edition. Two hours of character analysis of Edelgard von Hresvelg. I took down the previous version of this video because after reading feedback and speaking to people who personally reached out to me, there was much more I could do.
I genuinely hope you enjoyed this video. Its the first 2 hour analysis on the channel and I'm very proud of how it ended up. And if you dismissed the first one, but you're reading this, I hope you enjoyed it too!
Lads can we get an f for El?
Fantastic video! This truly shows your passion for the series
Thanks for all your work!
@@zeropelli7026 she can get an L. that's all she deserves.
I believe it actually is too long for its own good. I watched the og video which already was a hefty, massive piece of media only for it to be remade into even longer one which, honestly, i am not too keen on watching.
It is too extensive and just not... Concise. I do not think such length is necessary, more, it is a turn off for me and possibly many others. When i watched almost all of your other videos, you never went so far on a root of a root of a root, which in the end is not entirely necessary in my opinion. Entire lore of three houses should be its own video rather than being explained in support science, else it feels like someone tried to fit entire history book to their cv to show what world machinations put them there.
Last two videos especially went hard on the length of the video, which made me miss much simpler times when it was just 45 minutes rather than whole two hours.
On top of that... i would say you come off as really biased, despite claiming to be critical in the description. I get it, support science is you fanboying over characters you love, no matter if they caused massive genocide or a war that could have been avoided, yet if you claim to be critical, be that way.
If you read this i want to tell you that i appreciate your content nonetheless, even if it sometimes is tiring to watch. Thank you for the all the videos you deliver!
Watching Edelgard and Dimitri fans fight is allot like in the game - this post was made by the Claude gang
This is a repost of a comment I made on the original btw
@@temmiecorp4214 The funny but sad part of your post in either version is how true this joke is.
Actually there're lots of Claude gang vs Edelgard gang as well.
Their arguments usually about 'Claude is a milder version of Edelgard who has no balls to do what she did, he agrees to all that she believe but he wants to be a supreme ruler himself, so he is more hypocritical and incapable than Edelgard'
@@fitriaamel438 Wow,so Claude not wanting to spread wanton bloodshed is being hypocritical? And nowhere in the game does it indicate that Claude wants to be a supreme dictator ruling the world like Edelgard. He wants free trade,less xenophoia,and open borders between countries. What makes Edelgard hypocritical to me is she says she wants change,but she never even considers trying peaceful alternatives to do so. She never tries talking with Rhea about her grievances with the church or try to find common ground with the other lords on her issues. What makes it even more sad that the other routes indicate that the peaceful options can work. She's an interesting character because of that hypocrisy though. Her tragic flaw is that she's so set in what she considers right that she's not willing to consider other peoples viewpoints.Sure,you can somewhat say that for the other two lords,but I think it especially applies to her. If she and the others could've came to an understanding on their shared grievances about Fondlan,they could've made just as great of a change without a war. And that's the greatest tragedy of 3 Houses's narrative to me.
@@infinitedreamer9359 he did say he wants to become a supreme ruler if you spare him in CF. But his tone is more like joking. And even if he's not joking, still doesn't count that remark as agreeing to El bloody method.
But yeah El stans like to interpret Claude's and Dimitri's words in the worst way possible.
And if you won't agree to them they will call you the hypocrite instead.
Personally, I agree with you, the closest thing to a hypocrite is El herself.
Edelgard, Rhea and Dimitri have ALL lost their family in a gruesome way (by the same group of people), and have lost a part of themselves in their grieving. And unfortunately only Byleth and save/redeem them, and only one of them in a given route.
Regardless, of how controversial these characters are, I think we can all agree that these are all tragic characters with similar origins for their motives.
Yeah, they are
Yeah, they all need a hug and therapy.
@@johnathanedwards9054 A LOT of therapy
@@johnathanedwards9054 Seteth needs to be the therapist
@@bullseye5262 I am surprised that no one is mentioning a hug. What is wrong with a hug? They all need about as many hugs as hours of therapy.
Man Ghast you sure had to stretch the video thin to make it reach the 10 minute mark eh?
lmaooo
Ah the classic longform video comment
@@GobaGNon As someone that helped I HAD to post it
That reminds me, didn't 10 minute videos become heavily crapped on by the algorithm at some point? Are they still like that?
@@hanakizehhe9930 Hey
Edelgard is def one of my favorite characters in the game. So rare to have a "villain" with this much depth rather than the usual cartoonish asshole emperors and not only that you can completely join her route. I like that in her supports with Constance she discusses what is essentially a republic and with Ferdinand they talk about free education for all, not just nobility. It's hard to fully call her a villain when ideologically she's a lot like the French Revolution or the American Revolutionaries
I more so see her as a antagonist then a villain
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 Yeah, someone allied with the TWSITD, which commit genocide is a lot like the revolutionist, when saying revolutionist, you refer to Robespierre? But I guess even Robespierre won't do so.
A politician support by Neo-NAZI and allied with Neo-NAZI, allowing Neo-NAZI do all their things, so that he/she can become the president and start a war to conquer entire Earth, just to achieve his/her goal to create a peaceful, equal, utopia world, and said he/she will dealt with these Neo-NAZI afterward, I guess that's you guys favorite politician, right?
That's quite make sense, while claiming how you guys love freedom, equality etc.,
but you know, to win, to achieve the goal, it is essential to have the support from these true villain, and in case to not provoke them before the ultimate victory, you just have to allow them do all the evil things. It just not my responsibility after all, I am the good guy who want to create a equal world.
She's Fodlan's Napoleon
She did say she's basically planning to lead a revolution multiple times, so she's quite literally a revolutionary. Imagine if the French emperor was the leader of the french Revolution basically.
@@spaghetticondo.m9116 antagonist is a good way to put it. Because of how strong her convictions are. She's willing to wear the mantle of villain but she is not exactly truely a villain. She accepts the burden of being a person that is To be hated by the world and have history revile her. it's why I don't consider her "redemption" her good ending, and see that more as part of Byleth's ending. Byleth needs to redeem her chosen Lord/Ally. Edelgard to get what she wants doesn't need redeeming and doesn't need current or future people's to like her to get what she wants. She doesn't even need to live in the better world she creates. it's a rare and potentially compelling but also dangerous character concept and I think it's pulled off well with Edelgard.
A bit late to the party, but I kinda just got to play 3H a few weeks ago anyways.
Simply put, Edelgard became my favorite character quickly. Which is odd, since I played Crimson Flower last. But I really stopped up, took a double take and got surprised greatly by her death in Verdant Wind (my first playthrough). Even though she wasn't necessarily a "big" part of Claude's route, character-wise, there was definitely something extremely human in all of it.
She's flawed. She's not always as strong as she thinks. She's treacherous at times. I don't even at all agree with her path in any sort of way. But by all means, she's an amazing character. I really didn't expect that I'd like her that much.
Dimitri not seeking peace in Crimson Flower: I'm not surprised. There's a throw away conversation with an NPC in the Monastery during Crimson Flower that talks about Rhea going mad after the war broke out, spouting nonsense. We know Rhea is a cold hearted person who is willing to do whatever she can to remain in power, and to get what she wants.
The Parle in Azure Moon is partly because Dimitri is being guided by Byleth, whom is clearly a force of good in both Edelgard and Dimitri's life. Rhea on the other hand is unrelenting.
That's also why Edelgard in Azur Moon isn't relenting either: She doesn't have the guiding light of Byleth on her side. But, this is also probably why Edelgard doesn't seek to parle too: Rhea's got Dimitri in her grasp. Dimitri is in many way's Rhea's Puppet.
I share the same birthday with Edelgard :)
Happy birthday to both of you 🥳
@@BeeLy1011 Thanks Friend 😊
Nobody asked
Happy Birthday
@@bullseye5262 Thank you!
I'm gonna just repost what I said before with a bit of revision.
My morals and ethics aside, Edelgard is a pretty great character as an antagonist with some neat moments when shes the protagonist.
Oh and this time for real, I look foward to you doing Claude and (hopefully Rhea) next. They are both great characters who deserve more attention.
I also forgot to add my addendum when I found out Ghast was gonna do Claude next.
Finally Ghast can talk about that time Claude defeated that wicked CEO.
For sure!
I hate it when people say *insert houseleader here* is bad/wrong/evil.
They were MADE to be morally grey.
@@biandanxious3438 Um...you misunderstood me then. I said morals and ethics aside. Meaning I personally do find Edelgard to be a villain, but I still think they are a good character. Just because a character is meant to be "morally grey" doesn't inherently mean you can only see them that way.
@@biandanxious3438 Yep. I don't entirely agree with Edelgard but I didn't entirely disagree with her views either.
@@justinianthe1st790
I’m fine with people having opinions.
But I’m not fine with people stating “facts” about how a house leader is evil.
@@biandanxious3438 idk what you mean. Are you saying people shouldnt act as though their belief that insert lord is evil is fact? If so I agree. They arent god, and even if they were, I decide what's right and wrong.
However I find character discussions like Edelgard great, cause they go in depth about a character as a whole. That's usually a sign of good writing.
These character discussions also do a good job of weeding out people who agree with ethics and morals such as Els. I dont like utilitarians who go that far. Especially those who unironically think she did nothing wrong.
That said she isnt the first or last character that does this. She is a another Lelouch, Arvis, and Lyon. Some other character will be too. I look forward to more characters like her.
The sheer amount of toxicity surrounding Edelgard caused me to delete Twitter which was the best decision I've ever decided to do. However it also has led me to dislike 3H more than I would have. I like the game but it or rather toxic idiots ended up causing me more headaches than probably every other game. I couldn't say I enjoyed Edelgards character in the slightest without being screeched at so I simply distanced myself from the game and now have a bitter taste in my mouth anytime I try playing it. Thats why it took me so long to watch this great video. I just want to enjoy the games and characters in peace but I can't discuss it with hardly anyone without getting fed up.
Edelgard is my favorite character by far, and it angers me so much that she gets hate for killing. She killed strategically as a part of a war so LITERALLY CREATE DEMOCRACY and Dimitri killed indiscriminately in horrible ways for five years and fought to maintain imperialism, The caste system, and never knew about or dealt with TWSITD. Even though Arundel died, he wasn’t the organization, there were still leaders like Myson in shambala. The hate she gets makes literally no sense, and if you don’t agree with her, appreciate her as the near perfectly written villain. Sheesh
@@pedantickilljoy I agree completely. For some reason I find people try to bring politics into it which doesn't make much sense and try to call her a fascist clearly not knowing what they are. She's a really complex character. I wouldn't say she did nothing wrong however all 3 of the lords were wrong in their own ways. I also find it funny that Dimitri went around killing indiscriminately and his fans go "oh its ok he got better" the absolute hypocrisy. And like you said even if you don't agree with her there's no denying she is a well written character. I only wish that her route didn't get shafted like it did. 3H added a much appreciated moral grey after the cluster fuck that was "Corrin can do no wrong" of Fates.
@@pedantickilljoy I think the war orphans beg to differ. I doubt they elected Edelgard or any of her cabinet ministers.
I understand, I lived the same thing with Star wars... and that make me relativise the Three Houses fandom.
They are not fan, they are hooligans.
She led you into deleting twitter, true hero.
Amazing video, ghast! While I already enjoyed the first version, this second version is definitely an improvement. The crimson flower sections, in particular, were much more thorough and I felt that your points came across with significantly more clarity. I also think it says a lot that you were willing to accept feedback and put in a ton of effort to improve the video as much as possible. This documentary has definitely helped me to appreciate Edelgard more as a character. I'm looking forward to the Claude video! :)
Whoa a youtube video with DLC nice
Edit: I agree with a lot of the new additions to this version aswell as the general flow of the video
10 out of 10 would watch again
As a huge fan of both Edelgard and Dimitri, I never understood how people could bring themselves to hate one and love the other (usually hating Edelgard and loving Dimitri).
The irony is that both of them actually want the same things: To bring down the systematic oppression that weaker and lower class face. They simply see different things as the cause. Edelgard sees the Church as the oppressor (and TWSITD), while Dimitri sees Edelgard and pointless war (pointless to him) as the oppressor. They could both actually agree on the issue of Crest prejudice, as in Hopes Dimitri himself even says he also finds the Church and Crest system flawed and wrong.
I truly wished they could talk and find middle ground and learned each other’s actual perspectives because them as a team would be unstoppable. Dismantling the church (though ideally through showing people like Seteth, Flayn, Catherine, and Gilbert the harm the Church does and dismantling it mostly peacefully), working with Hanneman to allow Crests to be usable by anyone, and then taking on TWSITD together.
Crimson Flowers shortness, and not including the war against the Agarthans, make it feel like the route was an afterthought they added on afterwards.
I'm still very disappointed and upset that Crimson Flower didn't let us then go to destroy Those Who Slither In The Dark afterwards.
Nice video, I really hope to see a video about Claude soon
I can and will never see edelgard as a villain
I see the failings of the Crimson Flower route to be a product of trying to make all the routes necessary to get the full story. They couldn't have a shambalah chapter in Crimson Flower or Azure Mood because then Verdant Wind wouldn't have anything to reveal.
I kinda feel like the Verdant Wind route was tacked on because they didn't want to look like they were rehashing Fates, but when they realized it had no real plot relevance they cut all the Shambalah stuff from the other routes to give it something. Like think about it, if Crimson Flower and Azure Moon both had chapters where they learned about the Agarthians and then killed all of them then Verdant Wind would be the worst route in terms of where Fodlan ended up
Usually I’m not really a fan of longer videos (as in 1h+) but boy do I love these documentaries so much. I have been watching this and Dimitri’s twice now
I got this game last Christmas. I went into it completely blind, knowing only what was on the box. Crimson Flower was my first playthrough, and Edelgard was my first S support.
1:56:00 killed me.
Currently listening to this behemoth of a video while going through act 6 in echoes for the first time. Thank you for making the grind less borring.
I can see not many people here agree with me and I did start with crimson flower first so I'm a bit biased but I feel like not many people see that from her perspective the world needed to change and the only way to make that change is to sacrifice everything even her own morality at points. In two quotes that I feel describe eldegard very well would be "You can't change the world without getting your hands dirty" and "if thiers an evil you cannot defeat with just means alone would you become evil to defeat the greater evil or stay judge fast and righteous even though it means surrendering to evil." No matter what evil remains so eldegard is willing to become that lesser evil to destroy the greater evil knowing she will called out as a villan. Also you can have your own opinion on CF but I feel like people do forget it was supposed to be the shortest showing that eldegard was right in that her choice is the quickest way to change the world.
Everyone can have thier own opinion on her but I will always believe she is the most realistic out of the lords knowing what she's doing isn't necessarily right but knowing in the end it will be worth it as at the end of CF compared to the other routes hers is the one that changes the world the most.
Evil is evil Stregabor . Lesser, greater, middling... it's all the same. I'm not judging you. I haven't done only good in my life either. But now, if I'm to choose between one evil and another... then I'd prefer not choose at all. -Geralt of Rivia
This quote immediately comes to mind. You're right though. Problem is she threw everyone else under the bus in the process.
@@hilgigas09 see but that's the difference she is willing to throw aside her own morality to do what she thinks is right for the world well others wouldn't. As proven at the end of black eagles eldegards route has the biggest changes on the world. Hers is the only route that gets rid of the nobility and allows for a reform for society. Obviously she has her flaws im not saying she's perfect but she definitely was the one willing to sacrifice the most in return for a better world for everyone.
thanks faerghast for another in-depth and nuanced discussion video! i really enjoyed your dimitri support science video, adn this one didn't disappoint either. i do want to add on to the point you made about edelgard's use of deception to achieve her goals - i think it ironically makes her quite similar to rhea, even though edelgard despises and wants to destroy her. both edelgard and rhea weave an alternate telling of fódlan's history to create their ideal version of fódlan society; their goals are just opposite to each other. rhea perpetuates the teachings of seiros to preserve peace at the expense of crest-based classism, whereas edelgard lies about the extent of the church's harm to abolish the crest system at the expense of human lives. ignoring rhea's obsession with the idea of reviving her mother, the two rulers are very much alike.
also, i think a really interesting idea to explore would be to imagine what fódlan would look like following the events of crimson flower - will edelgard's actions be justified by the establishment of a just and equal society, just like she'd envisioned, or will her efforts be in vain as new power struggles and hierarchies emerge despite the insignificance of crests? we may never know (unless IS develops a direct sequel to three houses 👀), but i believe in the latter. after all, history is bound to repeat itself.
Thank you for making these, they’re the perfect thing to listen to while playing 3H. :)
I’ve watched this once already time for a second go around lol
WELP TIME FOR CONTROVERSY
Again
NOW THIS LOOKS LIKE A JOB FOR GHAST
Guess whos back.....back again
Edelgard taught me many things, including how many Fire Emblem fans have no idea what fascism is.
What do you mean ?
@@arkhamlerouge8450 A lot of people call Edelgard a fascist, which either stems from them arguing in bad faith or failing Political Science 101.
She resembles an 18/19th century enlightened autocrat more than any 20th century ideology.
@@Significantpower Fun fact: the word "fascist" comes from an old Latin word that describes a peculiar looking spear from before Rome became a Republic/Empire that Benito Mussilini had his guards carry when he took over the Italian government in his famous "Black Shirt" revolt.
@@Significantpower Yes. I think than the reason behind this impression is because fascism is often associate to dictator pro war. Also : the red color, the emblem of eagle, she command a country frustrating by the lost of her greatness passes, his autoritary look... But in fact, we watch no scene in the game where she act like a dictator.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 I have seen Edelgard compared to Adolf Hitler, who tried to commit genocide, Benito Mussilini, an actual fascist, and Nepoleon Bonaparte, who's law system is still used in France today. I think she has more in common with Otto von Bismarck than any of the three other leaders I see comparisons to.
My 1st route was silver snow so I saw all the good in Edlegard and the bad so when I played crimson flow and azure Moon is was lucky enouth to see both sides and go in without bias. Both share the same beleaves but different methords and experiences putting them against each other.
As I've said before, I hate Edelgard so much, but she's an amazingly written character and me hating her is an achievement, as there's barely any characters in FE that I can say I hate.
While I’d say on the surface the Azure Moon route has a better personal story it’s the background nuance of Edelgard’s hardships and mission make her an amazing character.
As someone who played the game on the crimson route on my first playthrough I didn't see her as the "villain" from the get go though it was made fairly obivous she was the flame emperor as the game went on. Also by overlooking all the "evil" she does like the starting scene having her send bandits to kill of as many of her classmates as possible, which fails horribly to some degree since it almost ends with her getting killed as well unless the MC had the time power to save her.
What striked me as odd as the story progressed was the fact of how clueless Edelgard actually appeared. First of everything she knows seems to be based of what the agarthans tells her, what little infromation she's been able to find from historical records and the history passed down in the imperial family.
For instance up until the end she believes the story told by the church about the crests, that crests was something given by the goddess and that this fact has messed up the worldy order and thus crests should be abolished completely or at least the way people hold them in high regards and gives people preferential treatment should be removed.
So I just couldn't help but wonder if her ideals and justification is simply all built on false information. There is a lot of truth in the way the church had mostly likely created or at least started by them changing the creations and usage of crests. There is also the fact that she appears to suffer from at least some stockholm syndrom with the agarthans seeing as they were the one's who kidnapped her and her family and did those horrible experiments to them but this in turn made her join them and hate the church for being the root of crests. There is also the fact that for instance when the agarthans bombs a city with a magic nuke she blames the church for the attack and when the church eventually sets the city in the last battle on fire she appears horrified and states how cruel the church is even though this act is nothing compared to what she or her allies have done for their belief.
She is also shown to be extremely zealous in her belief or perhaps to some degree the MC can manage to make her loosen up a bit since before the last battle she will mention that her plan is to destroy Rhea and everything associated with the church and kind of low-key tells the MC that her plan was to also kill them as well once everything was over. However she now has some doubts and is a bit unsure if she will still kill the MC. The ending to my understanding has Sothis sacrifice herself to give the MC life which in turn makes the MC truly human and thus makes her no longer have to kill the MC. The reason why I think Sothis sacrifices herself is that from my understanding the MC was born as a stillborn thus they were dead on arrival but the flame crest somehow functioned as a fake heart but in the ending the flame crest is seemingly absorbed or teleported away but it ends with the MC's heart restarting. The flame crest might have been what was preventing the MC's heart from beating but I can't imagine how killing Rhea would remove it since it's tied to Sothis and the crests are seemingly tied to a person even if the one it comes from is dead.
This part might just be me not knowing enough.
What is weird however in my book is the fact that from everything we are shown and told humans are the root of all evil that happens in the world no matter which side you really stand on. While the history from when Sothis and the Nabatean's arrived is blurry at best since I don't actually believe it's clear if they come from outside of the planet or simply arrived from across the sea since Fodlan is the continent the game is set in but it is often mentioned that there are or might be other continents out there. So at least I couldn't conclude that they are aliens from the information given. But even if they are aliens to this world it is unclear how the Nabatean's supossed ruling was since from my understanding the only thing they did was to destroy the Agarthans and then leave humans to do as they willed I mean how else does it make sense with the tribal state most humans are said to have lived in before Nemesis. But yeah this part is pretty much untouched and unknown so moving on my point is that the whole crest situation was created by the humans, humans then went to abuse and missuse the crests which led to many tragedies and then lastly Edelgard does what she does to remove the church oppression and tyranny of the crests.
I mean all of it was the machination of the Agarthans in their war against the Nabateans and I just can't get behind the Agarthans even though they are supossedly the human side of things since how they operate and act makes me wonder if it wasn't a good thing if their kingdom was destroyed. Seeing as how they act and opereate it wouldn't suprise me if the Agarthans society was based on a ruling system where everyone except the high nobility was a lower caste and where their mages were closer to nazi scientists where they would use prisoners/slaves for inhumane experiments or simply doing torture for fun. Now this may be biased on how they turned out but seeing as they have all pretty much stayed the same for thousands of years it's hard to imagine them changing their ways even after the Nabateans are gone which is pretty much what happens in Edelgards route. The power shown by the Agarthans is also so much greater then hers it's actually hard to imagine the epilogue which kinda states her winning against them in a cloaks and daggers approach since in that end there is no apparent info given that we know about the Agarthans city or have any way to stop the magic nukes.
But anyway this became a bit longwinded at this point but thanks for the vid!
"The goddess never gets directly involved" I imagine Byleth just sitting awkwardly in a corner going "yeah never no such thing as divine pulse that saved you from getting literally axed or anything hahaha"
Well we humans think that way. We claim god doesn’t exist because we can’t see and touch him, but he’s actually directing our lives and helping us in so many ways.
@@AddamSolo The same one that allows all these constant wars and death to continue on?
@@xAvitaLT The very same yes, depending upon which structure you follow that is. Though nearly all major denomination at least within the Abrahamic Faith's accept as it was stated the disparity with God no longer directly meddling as in the times of the old testament. Free Will and all that, so I'm afraid amateur theology that's been used since the middle ages will not work.
@@xAvitaLT Free will is a fickle mistress. God leaves us to our devices and we choose the stupid route, its hardly God's fault for our own stupidity. I'm a Deist so, my view on God is that of a benevolent but indifferent creator, with my own philosophy thrown in that I won't go into right now. In short, it isn't fair to treat God as this maniacal maniac who left us to slaughter each other like its some sadistic game, when that's far from the truth no matter how you slice it.
@@xAvitaLT yes and no. He is constantly helping and guiding us but he will not spoil us and a lot of those wars come about because we don't like to listen.
"It's ironic. The woman who seeks to free a continent by toppling a church - finds her peace in the goddess' reincarnation."
Holy smokes, how did I never see it like that
I mean it's only sort of incidentally that way, Edelgard nor Byleth are aware of this until much into their ventures, and Byleth never acts as or for the goddess in their route, not to mention Byleth's Crest Stone disappears in Crimson Flower's ending anyway.
It's no irony, for Edelgard never opposed the godess, but the church of said godess, its leaders and its tyrannical rulership
I think I remember Edelgard actually saying that she is ok with faith in the godess, and maybe indicating that she might be a believer herself
@@blackshaddow5005 I think it's Manuela's supports, where is shown that she has quite the negative view of the believers, assuming all of them do nothing other than wait for the goddess to do something for them, but later learn to accept that some people takes the spiritual support to be able to fight for themselves. (probably where you saw she saying that)
Byleth isn't the reincarnation of Sothis and Sothis vanishes before crimson flower and Byleth is freed from her gold fully after Seiros dies
@@richardshiflett5181 Sothis merges with Byleth, making Byleth a reincarnation of the goddess by having her power fully awoken inside them
Baby Dimitri and Baby Edelgard would be a fun dagger duo unit
Waiting for that duo unit
And then watch them destroy their older selves
Oh boy can't wait for them to break the meta on the next baby banner.
SO CUTE
Oh boy my bet its because it has Edelgard in it, is that they will dethone F!Edelgard
If only the Black Eagles route was 4 chapters longer, & let you actually PARTICIPATE in taking out the Agarthans. Wouldn't solve ALL of the route's problems, but could still salvage it in many ways. Edelgard potentially learning more about the Children of the Goddess & their history, confronting her about Jeralt's death, fighting her uncle, her reaction to Shambhala, her opinion on Nemesis, etc. Honestly surprised the DLC Pass never gave Black Eagles more story content, even if it had to be paid for.
Yeah.It's pretty strange that Edelgard never gets to learn the real history from the source(who was actually there).It would've made her a lot more sympathetic if she realized that Nemesis was no hero and that Rhea,for all her flaws and mistakes,had good reason to fight against him.
@@infinitedreamer9359 This is the irony where Rhea and Edelgard are actually parallel. Two people who are going to huge lengths to fight for their version of the right answer, and would make morally questionable decisions if that's what it takes. The difference with Rhea is just that she was portrayed more negatively throughout the story (the weirdness from just the start of the story, her "crazy" look, etc) that it makes it more obscured that Edelgard's pretty much the other side of the same coin.
@@toiletwater4064 Would have been better if Rhea was playable in SS. Just make the Sword of Seiros another Ragnell, and give her Aether.
Yeah considering how in other routes of the game, the alliance and the resistance army were able to take out those who slither in the dark in a single chapter and crashed their ambitions with the full of shamballa I highly doubt the empire would be given four chapters to deal with them.
@@infinitedreamer9359 Claude is the only one who learns the whole truth about everything when all three of them deserved to know.
Hanneman: "If everyone's super, no one will be..."
Nice Incredibles reference.
As I was listening to his voice, I had to try and figure out who it was...Dude's VA is Igor from the Persona games..
People have all these complex, 500-word essays on why one lord is better than another, and here I am like:
Edelgard: She's cool and small
Dimitri: He's nice and blonde
Claude: He's fun and chill
Is it possible to learn this power?
500 words is only two pages lmaooo
@@matmil5 not from TWSITD
I like all the house leaders but I prefer Edelgard and Claude.
I relate to them a lot better and they give me bi panic.
@@biandanxious3438 Claude was the catalyst for my bi awakening, also it was cool seeing a main lord who's brown.
Out of all the characters Lysithea is the one who sympathizes the most with her.
Why am I nostalgic about this game I only started playing 2 years ago, I really want another fe game (and I hope it's good)
me too
Same
@Merciless Freak ...and? It's still one of Nintendo's main IPs
@Merciless Freak I mean sure it would be cool to get more of some lesser known nintendo franchises but I still enjoy fire emblem games so im still gonna hope for more but im not gonna be upset if we dont get more
Because they do a great job of characterizing. You really feel like you get to know the students in your house.
Edelgard not only got a documentary. She got an HD remaster.
Claude is SEETHING. Still waiting for the sub twenty minute Claude vid.
Waiting for Claude to be the Skyrim of support sciences
Accurate. His personality is a funny one but the game literally tells you at the beginning that that's a facade. "His easy smile is striking, but that smile doesn't reach his eyes." Twenty minute Claude documentary, for sure.
And just out of spite, we get a 20:01 claude vid LMAO
:(
@@fumeknightofshovelry3901 ?
So basically, on all routes, the writers when it comes to characters are pretty skillful, but struggle with making a story?
kinda yeah. theres also rushing issues so some parts are them struggling and other parts them having to take away from the story to make deadline. its a shame
I pretty much feel this way. Imo the character writing is the best thing about Three Houses
I feel its a lot of patchwork. The character stuff is always grand, and the story stuff somewhat is too, but you often have to patch pieces together from the different routes for maximum effect. An odd feeling when a lot of variables can be different path to path and whatnot.
I also really think they shouldn't have allowed so many characters to get recruited. Like what Ghast mentioned about Edelgard not receiving much retribution from her deceptive habits, the recruitment system, if you recruited a lot of people, makes it feel very unpunished that she literally just deceived all of them (besides Hubert) and moments later most just join her cause anyway.
Especially in Edelgard's route, it would be a lot more powerful not to have that many students especially immediately after the reveal, and maybe have a combination of the impact of having to kill a lot of characters, or having to regain the trust of others.
@@sobacco7865 I think its a lot more dramatic/powerful if there is a mixture of students who join and who do not. Its just compelling to see all the various personalities and characters with there motivations choose various ways.
With that said, it doesn't bother me much, largely because its not uncommon for people to come together under one mindset with their peers. Be it for fitting in, or skewed perspectives. The game almost reinforces this on how characters can be swayed in various direction based on how they or others convince them.
Alas, I think there are cases where more characters should have been hard locked to paths based on their own personal beliefs. Some of them seem no brainer if they would or would not join Edelgard for example.
Ah yes, Hanneman x Manuela. Or as I like to see them, Edelgard's new parental figures.
Yo VALID
And better parental figures, at that.
@@TheBizzareBirb that’s…not a high bar to meet
@@yashkeshavpatnam1852 Hanneman is a better father figure than my dad ever was.
@@yashkeshavpatnam1852 Technecally the reason why Edelgard's father is so bad is because he's ill and has other people over his head preventing him from being a good father. From what we see of him it seems to me at least that he wished he had been able to be a better father but had strings that were stopping him from doing so.
It’s quite ironic that the only time Edelgard wins is when she has the power of the goddess (byleth/sothis)
To be fair who would win, a person who has two sources of power to draw from, or a person with God literally fused to their soul?
The only time any of the 4 "lords" win are when they're allied with Byleth.
@@mitchelldorcas9687 Yeah but its extra ironic for her
My head canon is that they couldn’t hold the monastery without some religious backing. They instead put Byleth as the martyr that was the goddess, that Rhea rejected. When Byleth returns, the plans change to making a church that makes Rhea the false idol and to slowly adjusts people to a church slowly divorced from the state.
I would argue that she wins regardless of Byleth's choice. Her entire goal was to enact change, that happens in every route
I liked Edelgard. I think, other than the fact that she gets the short short stick with her route, she's a really well done character.
Man a Shambala episode leading after a "why the fuck have you been lying to us all edie?" episode would have DRASTICALLY improved crimson flower
"because the mole people had goddamn nukes and imagine how telling you about something like this would affect morale before taking on Rhea and Dimitri"
@@floricel_112 well yes that would be edelgards answer probably but the drama that would ensue would be really good in terms of character and story development, and would be a better epilogue than the "and they lived happily ever after uwu" ending
@@Paledomain I feel that would take away from the overall focus if her story, the removal of Rhea
@@golfer435 well thats not what i meant, the story would remain the same until the end, so the rhea arc would still be there. but the epilogue of the crimson flower says something around the lines of "edelgard, the professor and hubert dealt with the agarthans" in just a sentence, but i think it would have been better if we could play those parts of the story as well like in Verdant Wind, which would also give an opportunity to us to see Edelgard finally reveal her lies to her comrades and stuff
@@Paledomain and my point as more that it wouldn't fit in the story as it is built right now
I really wish CF wasn’t so rushed so we could have gotten more story development
There are many things that compound, Crimson Flower certainly is one of them.
Sadly this is not a problem present only on CF, all the routes on Three Houses suffer this problem.
@@davifelizardo4187
Crimson Flower is really fun if you are going strictly going for the gameplay value.
@@biandanxious3438 But still is 6 chapters long, Three Houses is a good game and an excellent fire emblem but it still have flaws.
@@davifelizardo4187
Agreed.
I love Edelgard but the "El did nothing wrong" mindset is silly.
El did nothing wrong
She fought for what she believed in, that’s not “wrong”
@@bullseye5262 That's a silly argument. Bad people fight for "what they believe in" all the time.
She's not "bad", but neither is she "good."
That's what makes her interesting.
@@puddin4884 Thank you. That person's logic can justify pretty heinous stuff.
@@puddin4884 interesting assumption but I never she was “right” either nor was I arguing lol. I love the internet how people create narratives out of blank statements, it’s endearing.
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
3:45 Origins of a Dream Part 1: The Crests
6:31 Origins of a Dream Part 2: Blackened Heart
8:33 Origins of a Dream Part 3: Rise of the Flame Emperor
19:13 The Red Rose: Support Analysis
43:39 Crimson Flower Part 1: Dimitri
59:00 Crimson Flower Part 2: Rhea
1:14:21 Crimson Flower Part 3: Story Criticism
1:37:15 Byleth Part 1: Kinship of Flame
1:45:22 Byleth Part 2: The Ashen Connection
1:59:37 Conclusion
2:02:09 Closing Thoughts
Honestly, I can see why Edlegard felt she had to go the road she went. I think she felt betrayed by both the system and those who uphold it.
She did feel that way, and that' is consistent with reasons people have had in the real world for committing atrocities.
Edelgard aint even the only examples. All the houses have at least someone who suffers from the nobility or the way people worship Crests
@@Kris_King That's also one of the reasons why she fights against everyone too, because she has not only suffered personally but also witnessed the crest system fail several other people. Like Jeritza, and Dorothea, just to name two of the many.
there's no unfairness like trying to make fair what is inherently unfair.
Man her reasons for doing what she did is another reason why edelgard is my favorite fire emblem character(I know hot take and I love a lot of other characters as well)
I find it ironic that Rhea blocked the printing press, expecially when in the real world the first book to be spat out by Gutenburg’s printing press was the Bible.
Wth, pls don't compare the church in this game with our world vatican church.
They are totally different.
Rhea's driving force is her own trauma of genocide against her races.
@@fitriaamel438 Now I'm Italian, I literally come from a family of catholic believers. The similarities are staggering, not one to one, but they are more than enough to not call them "coincidence"
@@ilpuntodigf for the fact that Op mentioned Bible, it's just so wrong alrdy. The game doesn't even have the equivalent of that.
And no I don't see any similarities besides surface levels.
@@fitriaamel438 The Book of Seiros basically is a Bible because it tells stories of those who were significant to the history of its religion and has parts dedicated to it that outlines how its followers should act and worship the main deity.
Rhea blocked the printing press out of a justifiable fear that humans were apt to attempt genocide on her species if they found themselves in a position to do so (since they had done so in the past). She had a completely different set of circumstances and motivations than the IRL church of the 16th century in Europe.
The scene were Byleth kills Edelgard had me shocked how brutal the protagonist is...
Rewatching the video just makes me sad... "I wanted... to walk with you--." The blade cut of her sentence and her life, emotionless the way a meteor falls through a cloud.
@@burakkaankarakoc3879 I have also heard about the price Bilet wants in turn for his services, you must provide him as many woman as he requests to satisfy his sexual desires. No really, I am not kidding.
@@johnathanedwards9054 Knowing this information, I am both more terrified of Byleth and have come to like them more.
Their heart doesn’t even beat
@@johnathanedwards9054 finally, a valid reason for the self-insert to be able to bang everyone
Breaking bad spoiler :
She was Hank.
Byleth was Jack.
I cried like Walter.
And this is where the Claude fans just stand on the sidelines going "Well, I have nothing to say about this. Time to go end racism now."
End despair
As a Claude fan, yes.
The "end of racism" is unfortunately so underuse, imagine Verdant wind map on Brigid or Duscur
@@arkhamlerouge8450 Give me a Three Houses sequel after an FE4 remake where you deal with Slytherin in CF, rebuild Faerghus, including getting rid other 2000 plus thieves or something, and have a good deal of diplomacy with other countries, and rebuild Duscur in Dedue's memory, get Sreng and Dagda to stop attacking, maybe through, like, an Arena Ferox situation.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 I always thought that Claude would have been on better use if he has his own game where we can see him fighting for his goals instead of having that in the background.
Whatever your thoughts on Edelgard, I think everyone can agree she’s a better character than Thales or any of Those Who Slither in the Dark.
She's also a better character than any character in the game 💅
@@zant2146 You're the reason Edelgard fans get a bad rep.
@@sophitiaofhyrule Then so be it. Let them eat cake.
@@zant2146 Hah! Bravo. 👏
@@zant2146 FACTS
Edelgard really made this game for me. One of the most fascinating characters in a video game and discovering different sides of her along with the other lords across various routes made this beautiful mess of a game work for me. I really hope in 10 years we get a remake where they give tlc to all the routes (and actually finish crimson flower).
One thing that I appreciated when playing Crimson Flower is the time when I saw the Crest of Flames proc on Edelgard before I got the support conversation about her having that crest. I convinced myself I hadn’t seen that happen. It must have been a signifier of a different crest, or maybe I had seen it wrong? Or it was a glitch?
But no, she had the Crest of Flames! And that made her story and Lysithia’s make more sense, because at that point, I know that the group that did the Crest experiments on Lysithia had just left once they figured out she could have two crests, as if they were confirming something and then went on to something else. Turns out, they went on to Edelgard. So disturbing, really. But that was really well done.
I found this video to flow much better and seem to have a much more even hand. Excellent work and its great to see consideration to make something better. Looking forward to whatever you choose to do next. Hope it was an excellent nap
First of all, it's so cool that you took a great and interesting video that you weren't happy with and improved it. You clearly have a lot of passion for this, and it came out great.
Second of all, just gonna casually re-post my comment from the first iteration...
The great thing about Three Houses is that it's a tragedy caused by unwavering beliefs, so if you argue that either side is entirely right or entirely wrong, you are explicitly the villain in Three Houses.
Hey fellow man of culture and reason, how is it going?
Percisely
To be fair, the fact that these argument always end up falling back on morality kinda tells you something. These aren't just characters, they are powerful examples of archetypes, clashes of philosophies in almost every way and differing ways to deal with trauma.
Dimitri succumbs to his trauma, but admits it, embraces responsibility and overcomes it. Edelgard internalizes her trauma and it drives her every action, yet, she doesn't become the trauma, she's wide awake knowing what she's doing to others and suffers greatly for it, but suffers in secret because even she sometimes questions if what she's doing is right, but can't think of any other way to fix the world, her own trauma (which she carries with her to a point that it's part of her identity) blinds her to the idea of a peaceful reform.
Isnt there also a rather high risk, that a peaceful revolution isnt something she would live to see anyways? Living on borrowed time or anything
It doesnt help that Rhea removes anything she sees as a possible threat to the way she is running everything.
All valid points. I always argue that like the other lords, Edelgard is fundamentally a lord that wants to look after her people. However she knows the darkest side of the corruption in Fodland and that “peaceful negotiations” did nothing to stop it. Instead, those negotiations were used as to hide the insurrection that stripped her father of most of his political power and to mediate the spread of technology by the church. Add that to knowing you will likely not live long, what can you do? Can you really trust a stranger, much less a rival lord, to carry out the reform you sought to make?
@@raphnoble808 on the flip side nothing good ever comes from the "destroy everything and remake it as I see fit" mentality as it is nothing more than control, arrogance, and narcissism. The prospect that any one character knows best is innately ruinous. It does get brought up to her that the world she would make is no different than the world she is in now.
Edelgard is my favorite character, to me she embodies conflict between humans the best and the sheer raw nature of violence that's almost always brought about by polarizing disagreements in ideology between the establishment and those who seek revolution. Revolutionaries were almost never not responsible for one atrocity or immoral act when it came to war either. Were there other options she could have taken? absolutely, were there other options that could have been taken by any given leader in our world to achieve the best outcome? absolutely, are leaders of nations still taking actions that are deemed immoral? absolutely, there are many notable examples of sheer hypocrisy and single mindedness in our world that serve as an example to what Edelgard personifies. The story already has a paragon being Claude. You can hate Edelgard and there's plenty of reason to hate her but in my opinion she's the most human out of all the characters when it comes to what most leaders have been throughout history.
One thing that's incorrect is that TWSITD wanted Dimitri to survive. Gilbert says he found Dimitri more on the brink of death after the attack. They definitely wanted to kill him too, but there is a possibility they utilized his survival later.
This
I doubt that.
Whether Dimitri was meant to survive or not is anyone's guess, but the game does lowkey state a plan involving him was in motion.
@@moltz4866 he's going to be the future king of his territory and the mole ppl wanted conflict between all 3....
That's all there is to it. Dimitri was supposed to die but didn't; however it was little concern and later thales "used/uses" it to his advantage. Not unbelievable given their behaviour
Seems strange that Dimitri would be on the "brink" of death at all. If Lambert was decapitated, why not do the same with Dimitri? I wouldn't put it past the Agarthans to keep Dimitri alive on purpose. They just made it look convincing enough that Dimitri was a target so that when Gilbert found Dimitri, he would be "saved" from the event.
I love Edelgard as a character. I don't like playing Crimson Flower route because it feels incomplete, and because I find it hard to believe that Byleth would follow the Flame Emperor, who is in cahoots with the people who killed their father. I also find it hard to believe that Byleth would turn against Rhea, Flayn and Seteth after all the time being allies. It needed more to make that turn convincing. The only way I can play it is to have a male Byleth and head cannon that he was in love with Edelgard. Otherwise, it's just a stretch too far for me.
I'm also a basic b@tch and love Dimitri 😂
But Edel is a fantastic protag and super bad ass.
Yeah, the game definitely needed more time to make it convincing byleth would join edelgard, but I think that would mostly be because of her involvement with the people who caused Jeralt’s death. If we take that aside I think it’s plausible byleth would choose her.
While byleth was allied with the church, they likely spent more time with edelgard than they did the church members. Plus at that point they had found Jeralt’s journal, realized Rhea was hiding important info from them and the public in general (such as the banned books in the DLC), and could’ve thought Rhea was acting creepy after fusing with sothis. The game feeds you enough info that could make the player dislike Rhea/the church, especially if you have the DLC, so it’s not too unbelievable imo.
Then again, I also romanced edelgard in my first CF run so maybe byleth was really just a simp who supports both women’s rights and women’s wrongs 🤷♀️
Honestly, my favorite thing about 3 houses is all 3 lords are actually pretty great... there were no real villians/heroes between the 3... only victims
same.
i have a lot of things to say about el here but tbh i find it exhausting to talk about her in this fandom. all i can say is that wether people love her or hate her, no one can deny the fact that she’s a complex enough character to polarize the fandom with some saying she’s good and others saying she’s not. i have my own opinion but i’m not gonna say it. instead, i will say that i love that there’s a standout female lord in the franchise who isn’t one-note and generic good girl jrpg protagonist and also she happens to wield a freaking axe. it’s not every day that these things happen. also, dimitri is best boy and i’m a marianne simp
Based
Ppl who say that edelgard is one way evil or good fail to see the nuance her character delivers
As someone who loves Edelgard with all of her flaws I proudly say Crimson Flower is the weakest route. This was the first I've heard of a possible Shamballa chapter for Crimson Flower. Heck Edelgard has a more legitimate reason to go there than Claude does.
That make sense than Claude fight to Shamballa. One of the thematic of Three Houses is the importance of the truth. Silver snow and Azur Moon have a bitter ending because is your payoff to stay in the ignorance of the Fodlan history. In Crimson flower you have a more important part of the truth, but you miss major details from the history. Even if it was very frustrating, finish the game with a cold war against the true evil is the payoff to don't know all the truth. In Verdant wind we are in the quest of the truth, for this reason we destroy Shamballa AND fight Nemesis, the man behind the tourment of Fodlan, in the most joyful and epic fight of the game. This is our recompense to search and find this truth.
@@arkhamlerouge8450 which is why in my opinion VW is the best route simply because it feels the most forfilling
Yeah, I would have loved to see a CF that had more to it. Strange to say, I don't think they put ENOUGH effort into Edelgard's flaws. She kept having to tell you through script about how flawed she is and it's not shown with much subtlety, which is an advantage AM was given with better production and cutscenes where you can have a lot of different emotions shown at the same time in Dimitri, but Edelgard never really got the same chance (imo) -- besides just thinking after the fact about what emotions she may have been feeling.
@@fishnutz5196 And logically the route where you heard the less "unfullfiled" or other sad theme. But I don't consider Verdant Wind like the "best" route, more like the most satisfiying route
@@arkhamlerouge8450 thats true it all depends on what your after. If you want a deep dive into the lore i think VW is best for that. If you want a deep personal story then i think AM is your go to
Imagine falling for propaganda from a country that doesn’t exist
If anything, fictional characters are the biggest sources of propaganda lol. Their fandom are rabid and die hard, and will do things like saying "X did nothing wrong."
I'd contest the idea that Edelgard is being motivated by a desire for revenge, given that she puts Ferdinand's father under house arrest instead of having him executed and she has a lecture question with Byleth where the preferred answer is to remove Rhea's political power, not actually harm her, but otherwise this is a really impressive overhaul. I don't agree with everything in it, but it's very well thought-out. Thanks for taking the time to do so much work on this!
I think she realises that to keep noble support she can't really go around executing any aristocrat that abuses their power. As for Rhea, stripping someone of their power shows a much more benevolent and fair rulership, so it's the better solution if you want to not make enemies and give them justification to go against you.
Personally I'm glad I started Verdant Wind so I wasn't quite as biased about the Edelgard and Dimitri viewpoints in the community when I went into the other routes
I dont really understand how people get so bias. I did Azure Moon first then Crimson Flower but i made sure to play through CF without taking AM into thought. Each route is its only story and i feel people take too many bias into account
See, playing Verdant Wind prior to Crimson Eagle actually made me strongly biased against Edelgard. Because while she was talking about why she is doing what she does I was literally going “she’s wrong about that, that’s incorrect, oh she’s totally wrong, etc”
@@Rushboat yeah i can see that. Cause Verdant Wind is the route that tells you the real backstory of the relics crests etc and what Edelgard says is very misled. Likely from TWS lying to her
Honestly can’t stand eldelgard, I feel like if she pulled Dimitri and Claude aside and met with them in private with some evidence of her claims all this could’ve been avoided. And she probably could’ve gotten them on board for getting rid of the crest system too. It’s extremely annoying that she could’ve proved what the church did, what TWS in the dark did, what her family did. And instead went the route she did. Secondly if she really doesn’t like the whole crest society when she became emperor she could’ve enacted a lot of what she wanted bringing the people without crests on par with the people who do have them. At least in her own land anyway.
I like that she tries and destroy a clearly broken system but she just does it in the worse possible way.
I don’t think Dimitri knowing that edlegard had nothing to do with Duscur originally would matter, as even if he knew she initially had no involvement and still chose to align herself with those who killed both of their parents is kind of a shitty backstab no matter how you spin it. I think he would have gone crazy with rage against her regardless considering their previous relationship and though the betrayal wasn’t as deep as he originally thought, it’s still a massive betrayal
True, also I don’t think Dimitri believes that she personally masterminded it. He blames her because she was (albeit unwillingly and indirectly) responsible. The tragedy of Duscur was done to give Edelgard more power, he plays the clip of Thales saying so. 47:25 he says they were killed FOR her, he blames her because she knew what happened and still allied with them which Dimitri interpreted as her condoning, or at least tolerating, such a slaughter.
Honestly, Three House suffers from overreaching in its story Crimson Flower tells a complete story yes but suffers from being limited because its focus was so spread out after the time-skip due to four separate routes. On the whole, confronting Edelgard thing I would like a moment where El explained the Insurrection of Seven and how much power TWSITD had in Empire, and how most of the parents of her housemates complicit in it and why she was doing what doing and for some great understanding between the group.
Happy Birthday, Edelgard!
Let’s pick apart your motives and morals! :P
Hey fellow Lewyn fan
sup
You have an awesome name and that makes me like you already.
Still in the process of watching!
You really said "peace was never an option 🦆🔪" I will say, though, I love your segment on Dimi/Gard and it bolsters your criticism of why Edelgard didn't reach out to him about this in the Battle of Tailtean from the first video. Really expresses the tragedy of the two being at odds regardless of route.
I actually had "peace was never an option" until I remembered the untitled goose game meme
@@Faerghast should've left it in 🦆🦆🦆
I love watching Edelgard spam raging storm against Rhea with multiple Aymr’s as you talk about how complex she is
Fascist has completely lost its meaning: it's just a word people use to describe someone they don't like. And there's a difference between "villain" and "antagonist".
Facts
There's still clear meaning to the word Fascist.
People who censors the truth, people who shuts down discussion because they disagree with what is being discussed, people who are against free speech, people who dox others, ... etc.
Those people are fascists.
Yeah it's sad that the word has such a negative connotation nowadays
Honestly, both her design and character is one of Fire Emblem's greatest. She's so complex.
That is, I agree it was deliberate on the writing to make Edelgard do some stuff like fail to see the “humanity” in her enemies purely on their race. Still wish, like the reversal you bring up, stuff like this was actually implemented.
I find it funny that Edelgard wants to take down the church of Seiros, but falls in love with someone who essentially is the goddess.
It is funny and ironic. But even more ironic is that Edelgard would see Byleth as the exception to her rule.
she does not hate the faith just rhea.
Edelgard is easily the character that affected me the most among any other character in any piece of art.
As an author myself, I will say that the best ever character I've ever written is the one that was inspired by Edelgard von Hresvelg. As a tribute, I named this character Edelgard as well and the more I give her some depth, the more I'm happy to have created such a character.
If edelgard impressed you, you are a bad author
And I Beyer your character îs just as mediocre written as edelgard. Edelgard was honestly mediocre written, especially since the game didn't even try to make her dividend, since rhea was awfully written în The time skip. She barely îs mentioned în azure moon, she is an exposition bot în verdant Wind, and în crimson Flower rhea îs downgrade to an angry Karen with mommy issues. And edelgard lacks any reasons to dislike her other than "I like Dimitri better". There are thousands of characters that commited atrocities for a better future written way better than edelgard. But I guess you are that type of author who likes cute girls that are strong.
@@mihaimercenarul7467 Wow, that's a lot of words to say you're just an angry kid that likes to hate stuff he knows nothing about
@@mihaimercenarul7467 1 month and no answer. Damn, thats certified weak bait
@@of5606 aww look at The little boy.. You do realize he lost The argument by not replying, right?
So the way I've always viewed the three houses games:
Byleth with Sothis' power is experiencing every possible timeline divergence; not just the choice of which of the children they will be the teacher of, but which possible timeline they want to see through as the future.
Dimitri is all about preserving the status quo with subtle changes; the acknowledgment of the church is the reason why the kingdom of fargus got its power quite like how the Sun's light is reflected off the Moon, and what is the Moon without phases of darkness.
Claude is all about opening borders and finding new perspectives including breathing new life and change into the country but only as a passing unseen Wind.
Edelgard wanted to burn away all of the corruption of TWSITD who have been hiding under the stones of the church in order to make the future brighter for those who deserve it, much like Flowers growing after wildfires.
If Byleth does not choose any of those three futures, we get the cold comfort of the church as it was but now with Byleth at the helm, much like undisturbed Snow.
One of the worst things for Edie/Dima discourse is people taking what's said in their favorite route at face value
Why did i choose Edelgard? Was it because she's hot? No. Was it because....well....is she hot? NO again. So why did i choose Edelgard? Because we both Hate and i mean absolutely HATE Religious Zelotes. And there's only one way to permanently get rid of Religious Zelotes....and like it or not Edelgard knows how to get rid of them. And she's damn good at it. I don't hate Religious people and neither does Edelgard, but we do hate people who use Religion as a means of gaining power and manipulating the masses. That is why i chose Edelgard. I could've backed away when the Flame Emperor was reviled to be her, but when i realized what she was fighting for i was 100% one board.
Right there with you.
After Rheas phrase about "what happens to those that point their swords to the heavens"...i was very anti chutch of seiros.
I was just lucky enought to pick the house that would allowed me to do what i would eventually want.
If i had picked the other two houses i would've losted my mind by chapter 12.
Beautiful work! Edelgard deserves nothing less.
I love El as a villain who I can empathize with. Sort of like how I view Light Yagami, and Lelouch, or even Thanos in a certain view. Not in a edgy sort of way. But more of a "I totally understand where she is coming from" and "If I were in her shoes I would probably do the same"- way. I just get tired of listening to people trying to reduce her as the just "hero". We have a million just heroes, but we only get a villain like El once in a azure moon.
I love all three of my headstrong, depressed, scheming children equally.
I meant to do crimson flower first but then got locked into silver snow. And like the entire time I was like "Damn I wanted to walk with you too. But now I'm stuck with a sad dragon dilf"
Saying that Arandel planned for Dimitri to start a war is a WAY bigger leap in logic than blaming Edelgard for Duscur...
In fact, it really doesn't make any sense... Given that Edelgard planned to attack long before Dimitri would have ever figured out for sure it was Arandel, the fact that Dimitri did research on his own, he wasn't "fed" crumbs any more than anyone else who investigated, and the fact that the coup that took place sided WITH the empire, had they simply successfully killed Dimitri, there would have been ZERO resistance from Faerghus, allowing them to focus all their efforts in the church and the Leicester Alliance.
Leaving Dimitri alive would be UTTERLY stupid... Had Dimitri died at Duscur, Edelgard would have won the war before Byleth ever woke up...
Maybe Dimitri got lucky
Love the video, I think the criticisms on CF is well-founded, but I really appreciate your acknowledgement of Caspar's possible involvement in calling out Edelgard's lie after Arianrhod. Some deserved appreciation for my favorite boy!
I would honestly really love to see a critical analysis of Claude! I find him just as interesting as the other Lords and I'd love an indepth look at his character and motivations.
i feel like he should never have been added. seems like a third wheel.
Finally getting to watch this (I'm preparing for doctoral exams). As someone who did a blind run of Crimson Flower first, specifically aiming to S-rank Edelgard, even without the DLC and the things I now know about the game and story I loved Edelgard.
The issue, for me, is that a story that could do her justice and adequately address the injustices of which she is a part is simply not a story that Three Houses as it reached us has the capacity to tell. There is simply no way to treat her character fairly in any route without extensive, self-motivated inquiry and contemplation by the player, who can't pursue any of these unresolved questions by playing the game itself, as you point out so clearly.
Protect babygard tho for sure
You clearly put your heart into this one and deserve all the more support for having the balls to take a step back, re-evaluate your thoughts and rework this absolute masterpiece.
Happy to say I helped work on it with ya man it turned out freaking amazing!
Thanks buddy!
As an outsider to 3 houses. Sure sounds like the game makers had to cut down Crimson Flower story to prevent overshadowing the other paths. The point of 3 leaders is there equal and not possible for 3 dreams to come fruition.
Excellent video, I don't think I've ever seen an analysis of Edelgard that so clearly understands her
Edelgards route was my first playthrough of the game, I didn’t even know it could be missed unless you explicitly chose to side with Rhea in the tomb. Because she was my first route I was shown a horrifically tragic character rather than a monster who would do anything to win had I chosen to side with Dimitri first, and I think that contrast of her characterization is why I still love her as a character and why I am so upset that her route was so clearly cut short
Edelgard is so hard to talk cause she is so good as an antagonist, but so underwhelming as a protagonist.
Crimson Flower is super rush and kind bad but what truly sour her character for my in CF was the lack of interaction with Rhea, cause at the end of the day Edelgard is Rhea.
Both are born from tragedies. Both are motivated by said tragedies, trying to create a world that is just and correct for them, both lied to the masses for the own interest, both have a savior complexes, etc.
Making Rhea crazy just takes out all the nuance in both characters (Edelgard is an interest characters
With a lot of interesting themes going but CF plot does nothing with them or just remove them)
The paralelism between the two was the thing i was more interested to see develop (i played CF after GD and AM) and i got nothing, which is specially ironic when connection is the one thing that both want could be found in each other, literally the one person that could have understand what they were feeling.
The ending of CF shouldnt be "yay lizard lady is death, now lets genocide the mole man"
It should be:
1-A tragedy, Edelgard killing the only one who could understand her for the sake of her goal.
2- A cautionary tale of what Edelgard could become if she had commited the same mistakes that Rhea
Or
3- A cyclical tragedy, with Edelgard with knowledge or oblivious to it, having commited the same errors than Rhea has just set the stage for a new Edelgard to rise and take down the new Rhea, her.
I think that my biggest problem with Edelgard has never been the character but the writting of CF. She so interesting and she has a ton things to say but CF just does nothing with it.
Rhea is just boomer Edelgard no I will never retract this statement
@@sageofanys3476 I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was. Now what i'm isn't it anymore and what's it seems weird and scary and It'll happen to you.
Rhea to Edelgard, probably.
@@sageofanys3476 HAHAHA
I'm not sure if I agree with that, but what you said kills me.
Boomer Edelgard...lol I'm upvoting cause I laughed
I don't think CF made Rhea "crazy" at the end, it makes sense that by the end of the route Rhea had completely lost faith in humanity and her only goal became stopping the empire at all costs, honestly if I was in her place I would have done the same
@@daz1543 maybe crazy isnt that out of character for Rhea, but that just makes her final confrontation kinda lame cause there is no arc, not emotional conflict.
What made AM final battle so effective is that is the conclusion of Dimitri's arc, everything is paid off at the end, even Edelegard has an interesting develop at the end, was her last attack a final act of defiance or after watching Dimitri conquering his demons she decided that her dying would be the best path for Fodlan?
And thats good, like really good, and i would loved to see something like that between Edelgard and Rhea, i would even take Rhea fall from grace as a cautionary tell for Edelgard.
What could she become (The hegemon) in the purse of her ideals, but neither the game nor the characters acknowledge the parallelism between the two
And what is even worst is the game actually does this with dimitri, in any other route he dies like a dog in the streets, alone and full of anger, its just in AM after conquering his inner demons and his flaws that he can actually move forward.
Edelgard is built the same built the same but she has not conflict to overcome.
I did go in a little tangent but my point is that it would have been more interesting if Rhea had a little more to do in CF.
Make no mistake, I am vehemently opposed to Edelgard in this conflict, and I think she's caused nothing short of bullshit suffering, like most good-natured-but-flawed unite-the-world emperors actually. The funny thing is, in Langrisser 2, I'm ironically a supporter of that game's big empire, and at least THAT conflict was a war that was already present, and it was...clean, in a sense. Edelgard's war comes out of Goddamn nowhere, involves three nations and an entire religion, and was just an even GREATER clusterfuck than the war present in Langrisser 2, even the dark demonic threat wasn't as chaotic to deal with.
However, I am watching this video because, ultimately, I do not hate Edelgard. I just want my criticisms to be fair and based in fact and reality, nothing more, nothing less. I want to understand Edelgard so I can truly express how I detest her choices, or hell, even gain newfound positives and respect, or subsequently negatives if necessary.
I am critical, but I am fair, I would NOT demonize her like so many of her haters would. I just simply disagree with her on a fundamental level, not her intentions or ideals maybe (not entirely anyway, since she makes perfect fucking sense on some things lets be real), but I want to critique her fairly.
What is this? A sensible person who wants to understand why people agree/like Edelgard? I thought people like you were gone
Can I just say...thank you. This is what I am always trying to say about Edelgard and can't her motives for starting the war just don't hit right and there aren't many things that could easily fix it.
Almost 100% sure that Claude fans are the only people watching these kind of videos. Feels like his path leaves out so much juicy plot but I’m afraid I can’t deny Claude’s path feels definitive from a gameplay perspective. Narrative seemed to be Intelligent System’s second priority when making 3H. But the community enriches it’s narrative and I really enjoy the long videos like this. Im watching Dimitri’s next. Keep up the great work and hope that everything is going well with you
There's two types of people:
Those who like Edelgard, and those that are wrong.
Edelgard sort of reminds me a bit of Queen Elisabeth in the first season of The Crown. She was never supposed to be Queen, but circumstance changed her life completely. Edelgard's life isn't just changed due to circumstance, she became heir due to horrendous torture of her and her family, all so someone could create the "ubermench."
Which is why I find the "Edelgard is Faschist" argument to be odd. Edelgard seems to want to make everyone either not have crests, or have access to crests - but not through eradication of one or the other. She's a revolutionary yes, but more of the French Revolution kind: War to end past prejudices for a better future. Not a perfect future, just better.
Well said.
There is something you need to realize, even if Crimson Flower had more chapters similar to Azure Moon or Verdant Wind, it would possible to leave those loose ends remain untied. Your questions might still be there.
Edelgard sole purpose to deceive her house was really to further whatever agenda she has. Lying about Arianrhod, might be to as to not freak out her classmates. The only reason the Black Eagles follow her was because the professor did as well. I played Silver Snow as my last route, all they mention in Silver Snow is how they want to stop Edelgard. Probably because the professor wanted to stop her as well.
Your thoughts are really well received. I find Edelgard to be a very complex and driven house leader that I don't think Fire Emblem has seen before.
Edelgard is one my favorite characters in all of the fire emblem games. I can understand the path she took. Considering she's probably going to die young the only way to change something in that short of time is an extreme revolution. That's my opinion though. i like all the routes but edelgard is the most interesting to me
I love Edelgard so much.. she’s amazing and I understand why people hate her, but she definitely became my favorite lord. Her views are amazing, and I always go for her side. Albeit I love all the three houses lords.
I used to like her moderately, in fact after finishing AM & VW, especially after her boss fight I come to google specifically for 'how to save her'.
But instead found a lot of 'Edel did nothing wrong' which make me associate her char with some rude ppl who insist she did nothing wrong. In the end I dislike her just for that alone.
If only ppl can be civil like you, explaining her good and bad in good balance.
And while I like your explanation of her,I slightly disagree on some points about the church/Rhea.
toxic fandom takes the fun out of a lot of media we would otherwise like.
John Smith Those toxic fandom don't deserve to be consider fan, more like hooligans
@@arkhamlerouge8450 So Gamer Gate then?
@@johnathanedwards9054 Too
I posted this elsewhere but this is my analysis:
The fact is that Edelgard is a 17 year old girl who, like most 17 year Olds, knows exactly what is wrong with the world and how to fix it. The problem is that, unlike most 17 year Olds, she actually has the power to do it.
Knowing her past, I can't say I fault her for her goals, and, given her age, can't blame her for making some poor choices about achieving those goals (an understatement, I know). I'm not saying I endorse or excuse her behavior. She started a war and I'm not convinced she had to. That said, I still understand where she's coming from and have compassion for her. If she had been willing to share the truth with Dmitri, I'm sure he would have had her back. And if she'd talked with Claude, maybe he could have helped everyone find a way to convince the church of the need for reform.
But she didn't know who she could trust. Everything about the political machinations of the adults around her was damning evidence that she couldn't trust anyone. Trust was dangerous. Being feared was more reliable. This is what the adults around her taught her. So, the little girl, traumatized and scared, made a decision. She would build a world where nobody would have to suffer as she had ever again. She'd build a world that was safe for herself and those around her. And she'd wouldn't care if she had to be hated to do it.
But as she grew older, as the toll of the conflict sank in, that scared little girl realized how reckless and rash her choices had been. She lamented the suffering she caused. Was she a hero? A tyrant? A monster? No. She was a traumatized teenage girl who didn't have the maturity to weird the power she was given, but did the best she could. In the end, I think she chose to see through her goals because to stop halfway would render all the pain she'd caused meaningless. Better to see it through so that the sacrifices aren't in vain. At least, that's what I think.
She's really just Walhart but a cute girl this time is all I really see.
Ah, it looks like the first big change in the video (from the first version) is in relation to Dimitri. Yeah, it seems like the Edelgard-Dimitri conflict is at the heart of the conflict between fans or haters of the characters, as well.
I think the whole "peace was never an option" thing is something that could've been better seen if the scene had a cutscene.
Or, incidentally, if Silver Snow had a different endgame. Maybe on that route, deposing Dimitri wouldn't have happened quite the same. TWSITD could've rallied behind Cornelia after Edelgard's death, with them using a still alive Dimitri as a puppet, bloodlusted but unfulfilled.
And then there's the addition regarding Rhea and Edelgard's stances on the faith. Tbh, as a person of faith who understands Edelgard's ideals, this anti-theist does bother me a bit. It's not as bad as it could be, but it's still a limiting factor in the story. The story might have been more logical, but less complex, if she actually put more priority on beating TWSITD. Once the pro-empire Alliance parts joined (either after Deirdru, or if the route was changed to have such a thing happen earlier, such as if she was working on those alliances with people like Count Gloucester pre-war), that could've been a good time to be more honest about the threat the Agarthans are (especially considering Arianrhod). She could've had the power to oppose them without a post-game secret war.