Page 299 of Heretics of Dune. I'll avoid spoilers, but a sister named Odrade "sees mounds of dark reddish brown in front of her". Spice is not blue, that idea I think came from the subterranean lighting in Letos palace?
Thanks! Yeah you're right, sometimes it's described as brown. But other books seem to describe it as blue -- "a gruel redolent with melange" is "liquid indigo" in Children of Dune, and "The spice had glowed radiant blue" in God Emperor of Dune. Maybe it has different colours in different chemical forms? Like a concentrated/refined/processed version is different to an unrefined natural version? Or maybe Frank Herbert was just inconsistent and didn't care about the colour haha
@Alt Shift X Podcast If I recall correctly, the liquid form that is used for the massive overdose that creates Reverend Mothers is blue. Perhaps the dry form is reddish-brown, but dissolving it in water makes it blue, hence red piles but blue gruel and "spice essence". Chemicals changing colors when water is added is a real thing, after all.
@@tequilawhiskey that what I was thinkin. I will say, I wouldn't have expected it would be mainly Sci fi talk these two would cover. But I'm here for it
Christopher Walken was in the Weapon of Choice music video by Fatboy Slim, which contains the line: “Walk without rhythm, you won’t attract the worm” Talk about coming full circle.
I knew this, but instead of remembering it my brain just skipped straight to the emperor being introduced with a smash cut to the video of Christopher Walker’s wire-fu dancing.
A friend of mine gave me his copy of Dune back in 1990, with one caveat, I had to pass it on to someone else that would appreciate it - with the same caveat. I did. And over the last 30+ yrs I have purchased and given away multiple copies of this book. The spice must flow!
i did sth similar to a coworker last week. he left for another workplace and i gave him my complete set of dune books as a farewell gift, since we had a lot of good talks about scifi and fantasy
Trained chemist here. Couldn’t spice just be brown/orange when it’s a dry substance and blue when it’s an aqueous solution? So it would be blue in the sclerae of the eyes and in porridge, but orange in mounds and on the sand. Some salts change colour like that, for example copper sulphate which can be white without water, and if the crystal structure incorporates water, it’s blue.
I think the changed spice & spice essence is blue because a chemical reaction has taken place, I have always thought that the change is more than just getting it wet. It's precipitated by alteration by the drowned worm and again when the Reverend Mothers "change" it turning it into a different substance altogether. The spice gas the Guild Navigators live in is orangish, not blue.
I love the discussion on Alia. "What is the option for the weak?" Definitely an oversight and a very big one at that. Dune's central theme of thinking for yourself, on not relying on centralized authority, is predicated on the assumption that you can do that, and do it alone. That you can make choices and changes by yourself, with only the power that you yourself possess. There is no exploration of what it would be like for people who are not superhuman.
I think the whole point is survival of the fittest. Alia was not strong enough to defeat her enemy. So the only pragmatic option left to her was to take her own life for the "greater good"
If someone is "weak" then they should be encouraged and nurtured to make changes and choices of their own and defended from others who would seek to control them.
@@hankhill7827 Unfortunately, in Dune (and I'd argue mostly in IRL), powerful people didn't earn their power, they were born with it, due to their genetics and family wealth. Weak people had no freedom of choice at all in Dune, until, I'd argue, the Scattering was unleashed by Leto, which allowed the weak to find worlds of their own to settle, far away from the powerful people.
I rarely listen to creator podcasts, but this was a great one from start to finish. Also those two voices together sound great on the ears. Well done boys
Quinn’s channel is THE best for Dune content and more!!! I’ve seen every vid at least once in the last 4+ years (ideas of ice and fire) And ASX is my favorite GoT channel and more! Love these collabs.
This is one of the most wonderful crossovers I could have ever hoped for. It makes sense with both of your focus on sci-fi adjacent and ASOIAF content.
57:40 I see Dune 2021 as a coming of age story for Paul because he's (assuming that he's that same age in the film as he is in the books) a 15 year old kid who has lived a sheltered live compared to Arrakis, so that colors his perception of his visions. I believe Chani killing him and being friends with Jamis are meant to be meant to be metaphorical rather than a possible future that could happen. When he sees his death at the hands of Chani, and being taught by Jamis, they come true, but not in the way he expects: Paul "dies" in the desert to become Muad'Dib and the visions of Chani represents how Paul is enamored by Arrakis, but has to ultimately change in order to live, which is the same reasons why he misinterprets the vision with Jamis: he believes that Jamis will be a kind and friendly mentor to him like Duncan because that is what Paul is familiar with, but Jamis instead teaches him how to survive on Arrakis in a different way - kill or be killed.
My favorite part of "Dune: Messiah" was when Paul gets home from work, glares at a smelly stain in the living-room carpet, then his wife comes in demanding he knock her up while his girlfriend listens in the next room.
The logic of spice being blue because it makes your eyes blue is stretching in my opinion. How chemicals are introduced into the body doesn't necessarily reflect the material that was put into the body. Like, you can smoke marijuana/THC and get pinkish/reddish eyes, but marijuana/THC isn't a pinkish/reddish color.
To be fair, it’s not the chemical compounds of thc that gives you the red eyes. It’s a biological response that induces dilation of blood vessels. If you eat enough carrots you can turn orange though!!
Being a child of the 1970s and 1980s my experience was that Herbert was very popular during that period. Every bookstore had Herbert's work at the front of the Sci-Fi section. So, for people who _read_ Sci-Fi it dominated over Star Wars. I read Dune somewhere around 1982 almost along-side reading Tolkien and other classics.
I think you get a sense of how more people would react to reading/experiencing the story beyond Dune, at least in terms of popular media, from how people react to The Matrix (trilogy). And I'm sure that's no accident.
Yeah that's a great comparison. Dune 1 and The Matrix 1 are both a pretty straightforward hero's journey. Then the sequels rapidly descend into cosmic philosophic weirdness that a lot of people find unsatisfying.
Regarding the discussion of Paul's visions at 57:54, my interpretation is that the visions are more symbolic rather than being an alternate future that could happen. Her stabbing Paul is representative of her 'Killing' Paul Atreides to give rise to Muad'dib. The sequence of the vision is Paul and Chani venturing into the desert, kissing in the dunes, then Chani stabbing Paul. She is the one who trains Paul in the ways of the desert, so she more than anyone is responsible for Paul's transition to being Muad'dib and his 'Death' as Paul Atreides. There are two lines in the film that I think really help solidify the point: When the Reverend Mother asks if he dreams things just as they happen, he responds with "Not Exactly." This would imply that the things he dreams do happen, but in symbolic ways rather than being the literal truth. At the end of the movie before his battle with Jamis, Paul's inner voices say "Paul Atreides must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise." This is the underlying message Paul's visions and inner voices are giving him. Paul Atreides needs to 'die' in order to become Muad'dib/Kwisatz Haderach. This will be done by him killing Jamis, resulting in him beginning to embrace the harshness of the desert. Followed his journey with Chani leading to him accepting the Fremen as his people and his rebirth as Muad'dib
It also ties into his vision where Jamis tells Paul he’ll be his guide through the desert. Killing Jamis is what caused him to be accepted into the Fremen tribe, so in a way Jamis did open the doors to the desert for Paul
I just thought that it was a alternative future where he was somehow able to scout out arrakis with Duncan Idaho through some means or manipulation. Within that timeline there existed a possible circumstances where he would’ve been killed. At the same time there could existed a possibility where Jamie would’ve been his friend and ally in the future far after Paul completes his goals.
I think the Chani visions are for the purpose of expressing the unreliability of Paul's vision. A sort of antithesis to the visions regarding the combat at the end of the movie. Your possible friend can end up your deadly enemy and your potential murderer might give you the weapon you need to survive.
The fact both GRRM and Herbert never finished their story(ies) strengthens just how great JRRT was as an author and world-builder. The gardener approach coupled with numerous characters and plotlines clearly leads to deadends.
Tolkien may have been a gardener himself. However, he released his magus opus all at once, properly edited and any "flaws" still present are intentional. The benefit of working on a world/story for 20 years without publishing. If Herbert and Martin are gardeners, Tolkien did bonsai.
@@TurinTurambar200 That a side work at most though - his core story was complete. Nobody would be moaning if GRRM just hadn't quite got round to the last Dunk and Egg story.
@@jamessloven2204 Not really. He consulted some friends at one point to see if he should bother, they said "no" and he didn't attempt it. It was never a novel, just his notes on various things - the creation of the world, the War of the Jewels, etc.
What bothered me was the change in relationships between Paul and his father's men. Thufir Hawat in the book was the closest to Paul of the three. Thufir was more like a father to Paul than Leto was, he spent more time with Paul than anyone else. It was Thufir who was subtly training Paul in Mentat thinking and dealing with Paul's emotional questioning and confusion. In the movie Paul has very little contact with him and considering how little screentime he was given in the first movie in contrast to how important Thufir is as the Baron's new Mentat in the book ( even the Emperor considers him the most dangerous man in the universe and was infuriated that the Baron didn't kill him) one wonders what role he will play in the next movie. Duncan was often away as the book said on missions and errands for the Duke and was more of an action figure hero than an older brother to Paul while they turned Gurney from a philosophical, minstrel warrior who could quote scripture, rattle off a dirty limerick and fight on a par with Duncan Idaho into some kind of one dimensional drill sergeant.
As a German: The only context I know the term "Spannungsbogen" (arc of tension) is the just about writing a story, it describes the idea of having a beginning that slowly increases the tension in the story towards a climax and after that it decreases towards the end, which is usually depicted as an arc. I saw a bunch of weird theories from people who don't speak German that is has something to do with the drawing of a bow or whatever since bow can both mean arc or bow and "spannen" (the verb that is related to Spannung) can mean to draw a bow, but it really doesn't have anything to do with that. The tension of a bow for example would be called Bogenspannung, not Spannungsbogen. It makes as much sense as the term "bow of tension/tension bow" would make. The actual German word for the concept he meant is Belohnungsaufschub (delay of reward). And when you talked about Paul as the preacher I basically just imagined Paul as Brian in Life of Brian.
OMG I stumbled onto quinns ideas and thats where I learned about the trisolarans and the 3 body problem series. Charming, awesome voice, great collaboration duo!!!
1:34:55 I don't have the exact quote, but in Heretics of Dune there it's definetly described as rusty orange. There was a debate on the Dune subreddit about it and people kind of settled down that fresh spice is blue but it gets orange with the time. But deep down we all know that Frank just changed hus mind or forgot lol
David lunches movie is so good for the wildness of some of the things, mostly the scene of "The sleeper must awaken." Had a very unnerving effect on me as a kid
Love both of you guys, so fun to hear you talk together! But reality check Quin: 16:19 As a geezer who read Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, Niven, Pohl, and all the rest including Herbert... I hate to say it but reading Frank Herbert was like getting my teeth drilled. Really exhausting, not something to repeat. Reading the other masters was like sugar for my soul. I know it's a personal thing, but i think I'm more representative of the masses than the Herbert aficionados. I have exactly one friend who loves Herbert over the other authors, and man, he's weird as heck. I read the first Dune book when i was around 17, and remember it vividly because it was such a miserable chore of an experience with each page of progress being a fight for life. Now I freaking LOVE and i mean LOVE!!! Herbert's "Duniverse" and the Villenueve film is a masterpiece! But i am sorry. We need to be honest and acknowledge that Herbert was a far better world builder than author. It's still on my shelf, exact same book. I picked it up for a re-read before the new movie came out and damn, I gave up this time, i couldn't endure it. So please. Let's not put Herbert in the same class with all the other masters. There is an accessibility gap that we shouldn't brush under the rug.
Wow. I’m a huge fan on your channel and a long time watcher. This was such an amazing listen! I’m so glad I found it. I’ve already watched some of Quinn’s dune videos because of it! I know I’ll like the rest of his content. You too are insanely articulate and clear in your speech. It’s very impressive and admirable, keep it up!
Even the SyFy mini series cut the dinner scene short. Man, I'd love you guys to do an analysis of the 1984 movie, I love how both movies are so different but both good in their own ways. Even if the older movie fast forwards the ending, and the new one is so obviously better in many ways.
Great podcast! I agree many fans, pre Villeneuve, who found Dune have only read the first, maybe second novel, or have come through via the David Lynch movie. But there are more hardcore Dune fans than you give credit to. Some of us may be "old" as Leto II, but where not dead (yet). 👴😉
CBG19 aka Danika was the first youtuber I subscribed to. And surely I vividly remember your amazing theories about Azor Ahai and R+L=J, good times! So much better than the last 2 seasons.
I so glad Quinn mentioned The Storyteller early on, for years it felt like I was in this weird alternate reality where the only ones who remember that amazing show are me and my brother.
Jim Henson fans love and remember The Storyteller. It, like The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth, share the same fairy tale and mythology inspiration as LOTR if not direct inspiration from Tolkien.
This is so awesome! Thanks guys!!! I’ve been watching both of you for probably 5/6 years at this point and you’re both one of my favorite UA-camrs! I got into both of your channels from GoT, but I was so excited for Quinn to start covering some of my favorite novels like Dune and the Foundation series. From both of your channels I’ve been able to learn about so many new books and shows that I’ve fallen in love with, like The Expanse! This was truly a delight thanks so much for all the hard work you both do every week it is truly the best part of my day any time I see a new video!
I felt bad for Princess Irulan too. We read her excerpts from history books she wrote throughout Dune 1. Then in the second book she gets the short end of the stick the entire book for being a Bene Gesserit. Dune 1 had me expecting her to be wayy more in depth. She a bad b*tch not just a b*tch like the book says. She is the one character that helped teach me to read between the lines. Even the text will lie to us.
so much love for ComicBookGirl19 she was the spice that dissolved the caul from my literary third eye, she was doing cutting edge content ten years ago and still retains all her creative integrity, so stoked that you guys put her on.
I was a sophomore in high school and read the book in 1985 and was hooked. I read the first trilogy over the summer in between parking cars. It was amazing to see a hero broken down and I didn't really understand it at the time. I read it again in the 90's and I think I got it being older. I've been waiting for quality faithful adaption on the screen ever since. This movie was great. I worry that it's not accessible to people who don't know the books. It only gets harder to portray the further you get into the story.
Saw Lynch’s Dune as a kid and it got stuck in my memory. After seeing Villeneuve’s version I didn’t hesitate to read the first book. I’m collecting them all now. Herbert is a genius. Guys thanks for this amazing podcast, your analysis, critiques and opinions make it even more juicier to experience.
Florence Pugh was my #1 choice for Irulan since the beggining but I doubt my dream would come true! When you guys said it I had to check it, it was just impossible! It will be a dream come true to watch timothee&florence on screen again after little women!
@@joshknightfallget Dove Cameron does fit the look a lot more, a manipulatively innocent space princess look, but Florence imo from the get-go captures the scheming cunning nature of Irulan. And no offence but Dove really is not a very good actress at all, ik she gets a lot of attention cuz of her looks, but she’s not very good.
Honestly recently the all-star cast films have ended up being disappointing. But Villeneuve on the other hand with Dune really utilised the best actors he could find, actors that are recognisable but not necessarily simple big names. One miscast is Liet-Kynes (the race/gender switch is fine, just wish they had chosen someone older, who looks like they command respect like Max von Sydow does). And with Part 2 it seems all the best casting has arrived, its fantastic, I love that the smaller bombastic roles go to the actors who will play it up real well, and the more character-driven ones are chosen just as well. Makes me so excited about Dune:Messiah casting when or if he does that, who will play Alia, and the conspirators. Also seeing Florence Pugh in the lead role in that film will be great.
Alia had help from Harah as a child, and the Baron unfortunately as an adult. The tragic foil. I bonded with her character more than Paul, and was heart broken over her death more so than his. As an aside, would love to see the Count Hasimir Fenring relationship played out in this franchise.
i saw David Lynch's Dune when i was around 14 years old in the eightees. I found it intriguing and weird. Made me read Dune. I'm a big fan since 40 years. Even it's not a good adaptation, i love his Dune for the music and for the religious and intense vibe. I like all the Dune's because it's help see different aspect of Dune. It's interresting for me to see Denis Villeneuve making Dune. As a guy from Quebec, Canada, i saw him the first time in 1990 when he participate to "La Course Europe-Asie" where he was 23 years old; a tv show where we followed a bunch of young peoples who went around the world to make short documentaries. The interesting thing is as a canadian, he has the habit to make movie with not a lot of money and where you have to focus more on the story then the special effects. People have to see "Incendie"...it's one of his greatest movie.
As im reading Dune now i imagine that spice can apear in more than one form (in solid form i imagine that is brown like powdered cinamon, but in liquid essense it is blue)
There's a whole interesting legacy in how the visuals of the Lynch movie ended up affecting PC strategy games. The Dune RTS games established the genre, and even though harvesters for "ore" make little sense in Red Alert they're still a huge part just because harvesting spice made sense in the original Dune 2 game. The whole legacy of Dune games is an interesting thing to bring up sometime.
I know Quinn discussed this before a bit in his other videos, but I wish you guys talked about Alejandro Jodorowsky's vision of DUNE. It's always fun to speculate about it.
One thing I am pretty sure of on the color of spice, the substance they get from the sand is brownish red ... when its essence is pulled out, you get the blue. So in the blood in vast amounts, blue eyes. When they later find "spice essence" it is actually blue.
Well that was a treat. I love both or your channels and your insights into these books and shows. Listening to you both riffing about dune and everything was a lot of fun.
George R. Martin should get an assistant writer or two. He can do the outlines, plot-points and characters, while his assistants do the brick-and-mortar aspect of the books.
I didnt like the Heighliners. It was the only part of the film I thought was wrong. This implies they function like stargates. Not sure how the spice and navigators fit in to this.
I was lucky having my father encourage me to read dune when I was 12 back in 2006. The generational skip is totally a thing. At the same time Dune was a legend since it came out. I think that’s because it still stands out as a completely unique sci-fi story. What other sci-fi expressly states that it’s world runs on the human mind instead of a machine mind? Just star wars Kind Of and they don’t express that.
Shaddam IV always seems like an allegory for the popular perception of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Preoccupied with the perception of strength and his own insecurity.
I think the reason that Frank didn't breakthrough and bust out like the subsequent sci fi is because he was confronting and brutally honest. He didn't give enough fairytale sugar coating to go totally mainstream. Not to mention that he wrote too smart and went over the head of the majority. A pity because in those books are a lot of lessons that could be saving our race a lot of pain and even might increase our survivability on the short and long term.
It has been my understanding that the Spice only turns the color blue when exposed to water. Hence people’s eyes that are mostly made of water, turning blue from prolonged exposure to Spice.
Spannungsbogen literally means arc of tension and describes the rise and fall of dramatic tension, usually in a story. You can describe the pacing of a story by saying that the Spannungbogen is steep or more gentle. There are also a lot of idioms in german comparing tension to a pulled bow string and arc/arch and bow are all homonyms (Bogen) - the mathematical shape of an arc is derived from a literal bow so that is part of the meaning as well. Basically it all goes back to the idea that if you bend something straight, it creates tension or pressure. There is no specific German word for delayed gratification, just the literal translation Belohnungsaufschub, which I am pretty sure actually is derived from English.
It’s really interesting the list of scifi authors you mentioned, especially Ray Bradbury being more prominent than Frank Herbert, i just finished the Frank Dune books and then went on to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, then on to Fahrenheit 451, and one think I noticed was the step down in writing, slight from dune to DADoES but then significant to Fahrenheit, I feel like Herbert is so much more subtle and effective in his communication of metaphor and criticism of human behaviour than others, especially Bradbury. Also, love both of your channels, thank you for all of the content!
I do think the passion of the people involved with Dune really shines through. Probably havent seen that passion of a large scale production since Lord of the Rings
Quinn is actually the main reasons that I decided to read Dune. I saw how much he loved the series a few years back and I picked up the first book like a year ago and just recently finished Chapterhouse: Dune. It's become my favorite book series since then.
I always visualized the spice _melange_ being tan/orage in color, and that when it's processed in the body or reacts in a mixture, the indigo blue radiance appeared.
I'm nerding out, love you guys. Dune Messiah is my favorite of the series but it was probably my third time reading the series before I really understood the underlying sort of subtext/social commentary. Yes, the whole dune saga is weird, but not even the most weird that Herbert wrote. The Whipping Star and Dosadi Experiment. Destination Void and the semi-sequels co-authored with Bill Ransom (I think I'm getting that name right although I can't remember the titles lol). Some of Herbert's stuff is really hard to find because it is out of print but some were republished, not my favorites tho. Oh and you have to check out Soul Catcher, masterpiece imo
Frank thinks he gave his story a 'coital' pacing... but I think it has more phallic, patriarchal, climax crashing down pacing... he thinks he understands all the functions of the soul, but I think there's a lot to say on how women are portrayed in his novels... For example, it's interesting how he present's the inversion of the mentor as a _senex_ , a ninja nun witch hag, as ASX mentioned.
Chani gave him the blade that took his life or if you remember they say when you kill someone you take your own life so essentially she had his blood on her hands by giving him that blade
perhaps that the water of life was blue, and that Letos horde included both raw spice, and the blue water of life leading to the blue description? So perhaps the spice is in fact BOTH orange, and blue depending on its refinement
Someone probably already said this. But the reason many believe the spice to be orange is because of the guild navigators. The spice-gas and... everthing else about the spice they consume is orange.
regarding the color of spice, I seem to remember that only spice essence is described as blue. I interpret this to mean that the spice in its natural form is an orange dust mixed with sand; however, when it's been purified and condensed to a high degree, it turns blue and starts to glow.
I love your videos with Gildus but I was so excited to see you do a video with Quinn!! I would love to see you do videos with other a song of ice and fire youtubers!
Page 299 of Heretics of Dune. I'll avoid spoilers, but a sister named Odrade "sees mounds of dark reddish brown in front of her". Spice is not blue, that idea I think came from the subterranean lighting in Letos palace?
Thanks! Yeah you're right, sometimes it's described as brown. But other books seem to describe it as blue -- "a gruel redolent with melange" is "liquid indigo" in Children of Dune, and "The spice had glowed radiant blue" in God Emperor of Dune. Maybe it has different colours in different chemical forms? Like a concentrated/refined/processed version is different to an unrefined natural version? Or maybe Frank Herbert was just inconsistent and didn't care about the colour haha
@Alt Shift X Podcast If I recall correctly, the liquid form that is used for the massive overdose that creates Reverend Mothers is blue. Perhaps the dry form is reddish-brown, but dissolving it in water makes it blue, hence red piles but blue gruel and "spice essence". Chemicals changing colors when water is added is a real thing, after all.
@@cevk Exactly what I assumed after reading the saga.
@@AltShiftXPodcast I've always assumed the raw "ore" so to speak was brown but refined, pure spice was blue.
@@wingracer1614 That's my assumption too, that raw spice is orange/brown but refined has a blueish hue in certain light.
Now this was a crossover I wasn’t expecting
two titans meeting! 😍
but the cross over we needed
Idk seems long past due to me lol
@@tequilawhiskey that what I was thinkin. I will say, I wouldn't have expected it would be mainly Sci fi talk these two would cover. But I'm here for it
FINALLY! Cheers for more!!
Christopher Walken was in the Weapon of Choice music video by Fatboy Slim, which contains the line:
“Walk without rhythm, you won’t attract the worm”
Talk about coming full circle.
Trying to decipher that lyric is where I first heard of Dune. Truly full circle
I knew this, but instead of remembering it my brain just skipped straight to the emperor being introduced with a smash cut to the video of Christopher Walker’s wire-fu dancing.
A friend of mine gave me his copy of Dune back in 1990, with one caveat, I had to pass it on to someone else that would appreciate it - with the same caveat. I did. And over the last 30+ yrs I have purchased and given away multiple copies of this book.
The spice must flow!
i did sth similar to a coworker last week. he left for another workplace and i gave him my complete set of dune books as a farewell gift, since we had a lot of good talks about scifi and fantasy
@@alexmuller6752 no way.. ALEX, IS THIS YOU?
@@Freelancer.Warzone well i am me, this is certainly true. are you my ex coworker?
Trained chemist here. Couldn’t spice just be brown/orange when it’s a dry substance and blue when it’s an aqueous solution? So it would be blue in the sclerae of the eyes and in porridge, but orange in mounds and on the sand.
Some salts change colour like that, for example copper sulphate which can be white without water, and if the crystal structure incorporates water, it’s blue.
That’s what I think too, spice melange when hydrated becomes a different molecule which is blue.
That’s exactly what’s described in the books.
Or some constituent clearly.
Sounds like I always imagined it
I think the changed spice & spice essence is blue because a chemical reaction has taken place, I have always thought that the change is more than just getting it wet. It's precipitated by alteration by the drowned worm and again when the Reverend Mothers "change" it turning it into a different substance altogether. The spice gas the Guild Navigators live in is orangish, not blue.
I love the discussion on Alia. "What is the option for the weak?" Definitely an oversight and a very big one at that. Dune's central theme of thinking for yourself, on not relying on centralized authority, is predicated on the assumption that you can do that, and do it alone. That you can make choices and changes by yourself, with only the power that you yourself possess. There is no exploration of what it would be like for people who are not superhuman.
I guess the story is not about the weak, but about those in power
I think the whole point is survival of the fittest. Alia was not strong enough to defeat her enemy. So the only pragmatic option left to her was to take her own life for the "greater good"
If someone is "weak" then they should be encouraged and nurtured to make changes and choices of their own and defended from others who would seek to control them.
@@hankhill7827 this. You are one of the few people with this mindset my friend.
@@hankhill7827 Unfortunately, in Dune (and I'd argue mostly in IRL), powerful people didn't earn their power, they were born with it, due to their genetics and family wealth. Weak people had no freedom of choice at all in Dune, until, I'd argue, the Scattering was unleashed by Leto, which allowed the weak to find worlds of their own to settle, far away from the powerful people.
SO. MUCH. CONTENT. Already watched the Real Dune and the Dune Rap, looking forward to listening to this. Thanks Alt!!
I rarely listen to creator podcasts, but this was a great one from start to finish. Also those two voices together sound great on the ears. Well done boys
Decades after losing the throne, the former emperor Shaddam still wakes up at night thinking "was that little girl reading my mind?"
Danika is QUEEN. Awesome podcast guys. Giving her credit right off the bat is AWESOME
Giving her the props she deserves shows these two have a lot of class.. like musicians citing the influences of their forerunners. CBG19 is a boss
Quinn’s channel is THE best for Dune content and more!!! I’ve seen every vid at least once in the last 4+ years (ideas of ice and fire) And ASX is my favorite GoT channel and more! Love these collabs.
This is one of the most wonderful crossovers I could have ever hoped for. It makes sense with both of your focus on sci-fi adjacent and ASOIAF content.
57:40 I see Dune 2021 as a coming of age story for Paul because he's (assuming that he's that same age in the film as he is in the books) a 15 year old kid who has lived a sheltered live compared to Arrakis, so that colors his perception of his visions. I believe Chani killing him and being friends with Jamis are meant to be meant to be metaphorical rather than a possible future that could happen. When he sees his death at the hands of Chani, and being taught by Jamis, they come true, but not in the way he expects: Paul "dies" in the desert to become Muad'Dib and the visions of Chani represents how Paul is enamored by Arrakis, but has to ultimately change in order to live, which is the same reasons why he misinterprets the vision with Jamis: he believes that Jamis will be a kind and friendly mentor to him like Duncan because that is what Paul is familiar with, but Jamis instead teaches him how to survive on Arrakis in a different way - kill or be killed.
Loving the collaboration with Quinn, he is an amazing creator who doesn’t get enough credit for his work.
My favorite part of "Dune: Messiah" was when Paul gets home from work, glares at a smelly stain in the living-room carpet, then his wife comes in demanding he knock her up while his girlfriend listens in the next room.
Crazy hearing y’all talk about CB19 cause I remember finding her videos my college freshmen year and got me into reading the books in spare time.
The logic of spice being blue because it makes your eyes blue is stretching in my opinion. How chemicals are introduced into the body doesn't necessarily reflect the material that was put into the body. Like, you can smoke marijuana/THC and get pinkish/reddish eyes, but marijuana/THC isn't a pinkish/reddish color.
To be fair, it’s not the chemical compounds of thc that gives you the red eyes. It’s a biological response that induces dilation of blood vessels. If you eat enough carrots you can turn orange though!!
Being a child of the 1970s and 1980s my experience was that Herbert was very popular during that period. Every bookstore had Herbert's work at the front of the Sci-Fi section. So, for people who _read_ Sci-Fi it dominated over Star Wars. I read Dune somewhere around 1982 almost along-side reading Tolkien and other classics.
I think you get a sense of how more people would react to reading/experiencing the story beyond Dune, at least in terms of popular media, from how people react to The Matrix (trilogy). And I'm sure that's no accident.
Yeah that's a great comparison. Dune 1 and The Matrix 1 are both a pretty straightforward hero's journey. Then the sequels rapidly descend into cosmic philosophic weirdness that a lot of people find unsatisfying.
Regarding the discussion of Paul's visions at 57:54, my interpretation is that the visions are more symbolic rather than being an alternate future that could happen. Her stabbing Paul is representative of her 'Killing' Paul Atreides to give rise to Muad'dib. The sequence of the vision is Paul and Chani venturing into the desert, kissing in the dunes, then Chani stabbing Paul. She is the one who trains Paul in the ways of the desert, so she more than anyone is responsible for Paul's transition to being Muad'dib and his 'Death' as Paul Atreides.
There are two lines in the film that I think really help solidify the point:
When the Reverend Mother asks if he dreams things just as they happen, he responds with "Not Exactly." This would imply that the things he dreams do happen, but in symbolic ways rather than being the literal truth.
At the end of the movie before his battle with Jamis, Paul's inner voices say "Paul Atreides must die for Kwisatz Haderach to rise." This is the underlying message Paul's visions and inner voices are giving him. Paul Atreides needs to 'die' in order to become Muad'dib/Kwisatz Haderach. This will be done by him killing Jamis, resulting in him beginning to embrace the harshness of the desert. Followed his journey with Chani leading to him accepting the Fremen as his people and his rebirth as Muad'dib
It also ties into his vision where Jamis tells Paul he’ll be his guide through the desert. Killing Jamis is what caused him to be accepted into the Fremen tribe, so in a way Jamis did open the doors to the desert for Paul
I just thought that it was a alternative future where he was somehow able to scout out arrakis with Duncan Idaho through some means or manipulation. Within that timeline there existed a possible circumstances where he would’ve been killed. At the same time there could existed a possibility where Jamie would’ve been his friend and ally in the future far after Paul completes his goals.
I think the Chani visions are for the purpose of expressing the unreliability of Paul's vision. A sort of antithesis to the visions regarding the combat at the end of the movie. Your possible friend can end up your deadly enemy and your potential murderer might give you the weapon you need to survive.
I think Chani is here to increase Zendaya's screen time.
The fact both GRRM and Herbert never finished their story(ies) strengthens just how great JRRT was as an author and world-builder. The gardener approach coupled with numerous characters and plotlines clearly leads to deadends.
Tolkien may have been a gardener himself. However, he released his magus opus all at once, properly edited and any "flaws" still present are intentional. The benefit of working on a world/story for 20 years without publishing.
If Herbert and Martin are gardeners, Tolkien did bonsai.
Tolkien technically never finished the Silmarillion
@@TurinTurambar200 Was the Silmarillion meant to be published?
@@TurinTurambar200 That a side work at most though - his core story was complete. Nobody would be moaning if GRRM just hadn't quite got round to the last Dunk and Egg story.
@@jamessloven2204 Not really. He consulted some friends at one point to see if he should bother, they said "no" and he didn't attempt it. It was never a novel, just his notes on various things - the creation of the world, the War of the Jewels, etc.
What bothered me was the change in relationships between Paul and his father's men. Thufir Hawat in the book was the closest to Paul of the three. Thufir was more like a father to Paul than Leto was, he spent more time with Paul than anyone else. It was Thufir who was subtly training Paul in Mentat thinking and dealing with Paul's emotional questioning and confusion. In the movie Paul has very little contact with him and considering how little screentime he was given in the first movie in contrast to how important Thufir is as the Baron's new Mentat in the book ( even the Emperor considers him the most dangerous man in the universe and was infuriated that the Baron didn't kill him) one wonders what role he will play in the next movie.
Duncan was often away as the book said on missions and errands for the Duke and was more of an action figure hero than an older brother to Paul while they turned Gurney from a philosophical, minstrel warrior who could quote scripture, rattle off a dirty limerick and fight on a par with Duncan Idaho into some kind of one dimensional drill sergeant.
As a German: The only context I know the term "Spannungsbogen" (arc of tension) is the just about writing a story, it describes the idea of having a beginning that slowly increases the tension in the story towards a climax and after that it decreases towards the end, which is usually depicted as an arc. I saw a bunch of weird theories from people who don't speak German that is has something to do with the drawing of a bow or whatever since bow can both mean arc or bow and "spannen" (the verb that is related to Spannung) can mean to draw a bow, but it really doesn't have anything to do with that. The tension of a bow for example would be called Bogenspannung, not Spannungsbogen. It makes as much sense as the term "bow of tension/tension bow" would make. The actual German word for the concept he meant is Belohnungsaufschub (delay of reward).
And when you talked about Paul as the preacher I basically just imagined Paul as Brian in Life of Brian.
Very good conversation. I intended to just check the beginning, but then listened the whole thing at once.
Now this puts a massive smile on my face.
OMG I stumbled onto quinns ideas and thats where I learned about the trisolarans and the 3 body problem series. Charming, awesome voice, great collaboration duo!!!
The crossover I've wanted for years ever since I discovered both channels.
1:34:55 I don't have the exact quote, but in Heretics of Dune there it's definetly described as rusty orange. There was a debate on the Dune subreddit about it and people kind of settled down that fresh spice is blue but it gets orange with the time. But deep down we all know that Frank just changed hus mind or forgot lol
Oh hell yeah I love this crossover
Big fan of both of you guys. Really fun and interesting conversation. :)
whoaa now here’s a dope crossover!
cmon man whats with the username
David lunches movie is so good for the wildness of some of the things, mostly the scene of "The sleeper must awaken." Had a very unnerving effect on me as a kid
Love both of you guys, so fun to hear you talk together! But reality check Quin: 16:19
As a geezer who read Clarke, Asimov, Heinlein, Niven, Pohl, and all the rest including Herbert... I hate to say it but reading Frank Herbert was like getting my teeth drilled. Really exhausting, not something to repeat. Reading the other masters was like sugar for my soul. I know it's a personal thing, but i think I'm more representative of the masses than the Herbert aficionados. I have exactly one friend who loves Herbert over the other authors, and man, he's weird as heck.
I read the first Dune book when i was around 17, and remember it vividly because it was such a miserable chore of an experience with each page of progress being a fight for life. Now I freaking LOVE and i mean LOVE!!! Herbert's "Duniverse" and the Villenueve film is a masterpiece! But i am sorry. We need to be honest and acknowledge that Herbert was a far better world builder than author. It's still on my shelf, exact same book. I picked it up for a re-read before the new movie came out and damn, I gave up this time, i couldn't endure it. So please. Let's not put Herbert in the same class with all the other masters. There is an accessibility gap that we shouldn't brush under the rug.
Wow. I’m a huge fan on your channel and a long time watcher. This was such an amazing listen! I’m so glad I found it. I’ve already watched some of Quinn’s dune videos because of it! I know I’ll like the rest of his content. You too are insanely articulate and clear in your speech. It’s very impressive and admirable, keep it up!
Even the SyFy mini series cut the dinner scene short. Man, I'd love you guys to do an analysis of the 1984 movie, I love how both movies are so different but both good in their own ways. Even if the older movie fast forwards the ending, and the new one is so obviously better in many ways.
Great podcast! I agree many fans, pre Villeneuve, who found Dune have only read the first, maybe second novel, or have come through via the David Lynch movie. But there are more hardcore Dune fans than you give credit to. Some of us may be "old" as Leto II, but where not dead (yet). 👴😉
Ok so wow that was fantastic. Loved hearing both your thoughts on the themes, differences, and key moments from the books and movies.
CBG19 aka Danika was the first youtuber I subscribed to. And surely I vividly remember your amazing theories about Azor Ahai and R+L=J, good times! So much better than the last 2 seasons.
She's an og UA-cam boss.. loved these 2 giving her props and how influential she's been for both of them
I recently discovered Quinn through his Dune content, but I've been a long time listener of ALT Shift X. This is a great crossover!
Haven't heard a single sentence yet but I can already tell that this is such a fantastic duo. Cant wait to listen when I start my shift later
I so glad Quinn mentioned The Storyteller early on, for years it felt like I was in this weird alternate reality where the only ones who remember that amazing show are me and my brother.
Jim Henson fans love and remember The Storyteller. It, like The Dark Crystal and Labyrinth, share the same fairy tale and mythology inspiration as LOTR if not direct inspiration from Tolkien.
This is so awesome! Thanks guys!!! I’ve been watching both of you for probably 5/6 years at this point and you’re both one of my favorite UA-camrs! I got into both of your channels from GoT, but I was so excited for Quinn to start covering some of my favorite novels like Dune and the Foundation series. From both of your channels I’ve been able to learn about so many new books and shows that I’ve fallen in love with, like The Expanse! This was truly a delight thanks so much for all the hard work you both do every week it is truly the best part of my day any time I see a new video!
I discovered Quinn after the dune movie and he’s been so great. I’ve learned so much from him
Two of my favorite thinkers together?! This is like the best version of the old Reese's commercials!
I literally only ever read Dune because my dad recommended it to me. I read it over the summer in high school and fell into a loving fascination.
I felt bad for Princess Irulan too. We read her excerpts from history books she wrote throughout Dune 1. Then in the second book she gets the short end of the stick the entire book for being a Bene Gesserit.
Dune 1 had me expecting her to be wayy more in depth. She a bad b*tch not just a b*tch like the book says.
She is the one character that helped teach me to read between the lines. Even the text will lie to us.
Quinn introduced me to dune lore but comic girl is the one who actually took me in depth with her book clubs. So thankful I found both of them!
so much love for ComicBookGirl19 she was the spice that dissolved the caul from my literary third eye, she was doing cutting edge content ten years ago and still retains all her creative integrity, so stoked that you guys put her on.
I was a sophomore in high school and read the book in 1985 and was hooked. I read the first trilogy over the summer in between parking cars. It was amazing to see a hero broken down and I didn't really understand it at the time. I read it again in the 90's and I think I got it being older. I've been waiting for quality faithful adaption on the screen ever since. This movie was great. I worry that it's not accessible to people who don't know the books. It only gets harder to portray the further you get into the story.
Saw Lynch’s Dune as a kid and it got stuck in my memory. After seeing Villeneuve’s version I didn’t hesitate to read the first book. I’m collecting them all now. Herbert is a genius. Guys thanks for this amazing podcast, your analysis, critiques and opinions make it even more juicier to experience.
Florence Pugh was my #1 choice for Irulan since the beggining but I doubt my dream would come true! When you guys said it I had to check it, it was just impossible! It will be a dream come true to watch timothee&florence on screen again after little women!
Mine was Dove Cameron, cuz she looks like a space princess. But I'm betting Pugh will be the more skilled actress. Big fan.
@@joshknightfallget Dove Cameron does fit the look a lot more, a manipulatively innocent space princess look, but Florence imo from the get-go captures the scheming cunning nature of Irulan. And no offence but Dove really is not a very good actress at all, ik she gets a lot of attention cuz of her looks, but she’s not very good.
Honestly recently the all-star cast films have ended up being disappointing. But Villeneuve on the other hand with Dune really utilised the best actors he could find, actors that are recognisable but not necessarily simple big names. One miscast is Liet-Kynes (the race/gender switch is fine, just wish they had chosen someone older, who looks like they command respect like Max von Sydow does). And with Part 2 it seems all the best casting has arrived, its fantastic, I love that the smaller bombastic roles go to the actors who will play it up real well, and the more character-driven ones are chosen just as well. Makes me so excited about Dune:Messiah casting when or if he does that, who will play Alia, and the conspirators. Also seeing Florence Pugh in the lead role in that film will be great.
This was an amazingly gripping conversation!
You are a great interviewer, and I feel like you should countiune maing and promoting this podcast more.
Alia had help from Harah as a child, and the Baron unfortunately as an adult. The tragic foil. I bonded with her character more than Paul, and was heart broken over her death more so than his. As an aside, would love to see the Count Hasimir Fenring relationship played out in this franchise.
Quinn’s Ideas is easily hands down one of the best channels on UA-cam.
i saw David Lynch's Dune when i was around 14 years old in the eightees. I found it intriguing and weird. Made me read Dune. I'm a big fan since 40 years. Even it's not a good adaptation, i love his Dune for the music and for the religious and intense vibe. I like all the Dune's because it's help see different aspect of Dune. It's interresting for me to see Denis Villeneuve making Dune. As a guy from Quebec, Canada, i saw him the first time in 1990 when he participate to "La Course Europe-Asie" where he was 23 years old; a tv show where we followed a bunch of young peoples who went around the world to make short documentaries. The interesting thing is as a canadian, he has the habit to make movie with not a lot of money and where you have to focus more on the story then the special effects. People have to see "Incendie"...it's one of his greatest movie.
As im reading Dune now i imagine that spice can apear in more than one form (in solid form i imagine that is brown like powdered cinamon, but in liquid essense it is blue)
Thank you for hosting Quinn. Its good to listen you two talking about dune.😄😊
There's a whole interesting legacy in how the visuals of the Lynch movie ended up affecting PC strategy games. The Dune RTS games established the genre, and even though harvesters for "ore" make little sense in Red Alert they're still a huge part just because harvesting spice made sense in the original Dune 2 game.
The whole legacy of Dune games is an interesting thing to bring up sometime.
CBG19 was my intro into GoT and Dune on YT. I love the Quinn`s dune book review series.
My two favorite fantasy sci Fi creators yayyy!!
Love both these channels. Excellent content. Keep up the good work.
Oh wow the legend himself, the DUNE authority
I have been waiting for this collab!
I know Quinn discussed this before a bit in his other videos, but I wish you guys talked about Alejandro Jodorowsky's vision of DUNE. It's always fun to speculate about it.
One thing I am pretty sure of on the color of spice, the substance they get from the sand is brownish red ... when its essence is pulled out, you get the blue. So in the blood in vast amounts, blue eyes. When they later find "spice essence" it is actually blue.
Well that was a treat. I love both or your channels and your insights into these books and shows. Listening to you both riffing about dune and everything was a lot of fun.
Best podcast in a while.
George R. Martin should get an assistant writer or two. He can do the outlines, plot-points and characters, while his assistants do the brick-and-mortar aspect of the books.
I didnt like the Heighliners. It was the only part of the film I thought was wrong. This implies they function like stargates. Not sure how the spice and navigators fit in to this.
Omg! Not both of my most favorite you tubers discussing my favorite book series!!!!! ❤❤❤
I was lucky having my father encourage me to read dune when I was 12 back in 2006. The generational skip is totally a thing. At the same time Dune was a legend since it came out. I think that’s because it still stands out as a completely unique sci-fi story.
What other sci-fi expressly states that it’s world runs on the human mind instead of a machine mind? Just star wars Kind Of and they don’t express that.
Shaddam IV always seems like an allegory for the popular perception of Kaiser Wilhelm II. Preoccupied with the perception of strength and his own insecurity.
I think the reason that Frank didn't breakthrough and bust out like the subsequent sci fi is because he was confronting and brutally honest. He didn't give enough fairytale sugar coating to go totally mainstream. Not to mention that he wrote too smart and went over the head of the majority. A pity because in those books are a lot of lessons that could be saving our race a lot of pain and even might increase our survivability on the short and long term.
When I saw that you were going to have a guest, I was hoping it would be Quinn!
It has been my understanding that the Spice only turns the color blue when exposed to water. Hence people’s eyes that are mostly made of water, turning blue from prolonged exposure to Spice.
wow, my worlds are colliding! amazing! the colab i never knew i wanted
Spannungsbogen literally means arc of tension and describes the rise and fall of dramatic tension, usually in a story. You can describe the pacing of a story by saying that the Spannungbogen is steep or more gentle. There are also a lot of idioms in german comparing tension to a pulled bow string and arc/arch and bow are all homonyms (Bogen) - the mathematical shape of an arc is derived from a literal bow so that is part of the meaning as well. Basically it all goes back to the idea that if you bend something straight, it creates tension or pressure.
There is no specific German word for delayed gratification, just the literal translation Belohnungsaufschub, which I am pretty sure actually is derived from English.
At this point I'm gonna have to go into cryogenic storage with instructions to wake me up when winds of winter finally comes out.
It’s really interesting the list of scifi authors you mentioned, especially Ray Bradbury being more prominent than Frank Herbert, i just finished the Frank Dune books and then went on to Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, then on to Fahrenheit 451, and one think I noticed was the step down in writing, slight from dune to DADoES but then significant to Fahrenheit, I feel like Herbert is so much more subtle and effective in his communication of metaphor and criticism of human behaviour than others, especially Bradbury.
Also, love both of your channels, thank you for all of the content!
I do think the passion of the people involved with Dune really shines through. Probably havent seen that passion of a large scale production since Lord of the Rings
They should call it the Idaho bloodline by the time it gets to Heretics, since he's been bred into the line like a hundred times.
Quinn is actually the main reasons that I decided to read Dune. I saw how much he loved the series a few years back and I picked up the first book like a year ago and just recently finished Chapterhouse: Dune. It's become my favorite book series since then.
Same! The way he described it really captures me more than the movie did lol
Jim Henson's Storyteller!! I love that show
I always visualized the spice _melange_ being tan/orage in color, and that when it's processed in the body or reacts in a mixture, the indigo blue radiance appeared.
I'm nerding out, love you guys. Dune Messiah is my favorite of the series but it was probably my third time reading the series before I really understood the underlying sort of subtext/social commentary.
Yes, the whole dune saga is weird, but not even the most weird that Herbert wrote. The Whipping Star and Dosadi Experiment. Destination Void and the semi-sequels co-authored with Bill Ransom (I think I'm getting that name right although I can't remember the titles lol). Some of Herbert's stuff is really hard to find because it is out of print but some were republished, not my favorites tho.
Oh and you have to check out Soul Catcher, masterpiece imo
Frank thinks he gave his story a 'coital' pacing... but I think it has more phallic, patriarchal, climax crashing down pacing... he thinks he understands all the functions of the soul, but I think there's a lot to say on how women are portrayed in his novels... For example, it's interesting how he present's the inversion of the mentor as a _senex_ , a ninja nun witch hag, as ASX mentioned.
This is a crossover to be exited about!!
You guys turned me on to CBG 19, thanks, she's awesome!
Better late than never, she's been so underrated for a long time
I need more thee body problem videos 🙏
I second.
Two of my favorite story tellers!
Chani gave him the blade that took his life or if you remember they say when you kill someone you take your own life so essentially she had his blood on her hands by giving him that blade
Nice to hear the praise about comicbookgirl19, her X-Men documentaries made me go back and read most of the x-men comics.
She's awesome.. a real og
This makes me sooooo happy
The real crossover
Best crossover since I've UA-camd
perhaps that the water of life was blue, and that Letos horde included both raw spice, and the blue water of life leading to the blue description? So perhaps the spice is in fact BOTH orange, and blue depending on its refinement
Someone probably already said this. But the reason many believe the spice to be orange is because of the guild navigators. The spice-gas and... everthing else about the spice they consume is orange.
Descriptions of spice blow also described orange coloration.
regarding the color of spice, I seem to remember that only spice essence is described as blue. I interpret this to mean that the spice in its natural form is an orange dust mixed with sand; however, when it's been purified and condensed to a high degree, it turns blue and starts to glow.
I love your videos with Gildus but I was so excited to see you do a video with Quinn!! I would love to see you do videos with other a song of ice and fire youtubers!