The EXACT Moment The BACKING/CLICK TRACK Goes WRONG! (Analysis)
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- Опубліковано 17 вер 2023
- -The EXACT Moment The BACKING/CLICK TRACK Goes WRONG! (Analysis)
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Don’t feel bad for Kiss! Those hypocritical a-holes have publicly attacked other musicians for miming, now they’re the biggest offenders. They deserve every bit of flack they get.
They are not miming, the backing track contains other parts/instruments/effects that they don't have live
Don't shame the J or you will be unpersoned.
@@alpardal like Paul Stanley’s voice? 🤣
They at one time were capable of playing their music live...i think. Clearly they got lazy
WRONG.@@alpardal
Sadly the Final Kiss tour has had multiple times where the system has missed a cog. Often it's Tommy who sets up the chaos, or maybe better said does't hear the drummers cue. But the most problematic issue they have had is Paul getting caught out well away from a mic and he's clearly heard singing. Honestly Kiss should have wrapped it all up after the 98 reunion tour. That would have been going out on top, the band today is a very sad joke, the tour just feels like a money grab.
They should have went out on top, but Chaim Witz and Stanley Eisen love $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Music theater, like acting, and people like it.
@@BadWolf762 you wouldnt ever have known who kiss was, or say led zepplin, if not for money
I mean theyre 70
Gene is selling Stage played bases for $12,000+$20,000 a night. Multiple basses. Every night they sell at least three each night, per his bass tech.
Merchandising is making a killing. Hell, I would not be the least bit surprised to find out there getting a cut of the parking lot charge.
I remember when everything was live. Spontaneous and creative on the spot interaction with band mates and the audience.
You mean the good old days when they had ghost players instead of backing tracks? ;PP
I’d rather hear bands suck and be totally live. Just a personal preference.
Backing tracks have been a part of live performances since.. forever. Van Halen used them to play Eddie's keyboard parts on some tours dating back to the 80's (yes, they also used a real keyboard player behind the stage on some tours as well). The Who used them on the Quadrophenia tour in 1973! Sorry to spoil it for everyone.
@@TheArtofGuitar Yep. What's crazy is how much they charge now for this. It's why I don't do shows anymore.
@@TheArtofGuitarBands like Styx play live, and are 100 percent the opposite of suck.
I would live in fear if I ever played on stage live while using a backing track.
I screw up enough in my living room
same
Drummer in Studio: “the click track off it’s throwing me off”!
That's precisely what a backing track is for. You can just pretend to play and let the backing track carry you. If you can't even mimic decently then you are even more incompetent. Kiss is just a clown act.
@@edulinares7152 That’s NOT what it’s for. You are combining prerecorded elements with live elements, and if the two get out of sync, you’re fucked. So many things can go wrong with a live performance anyway, it’s amazing to me that so many bands agree to add this massive complication to the mix, that makes the whole thing so much more of a high-wire act. It’s so much simpler to just play genuinely live.
Unbelievable how music had changed. When I want drums… I hire a drummer!!! I won’t change!!! Live music is where it’s at.
AGREE TOTALLY BUT WE CANT ALL BE ROCK STARS PLAYING THE BIG GIGS SOME OF US HAVE TO PLAY THE SMALL PUBS AND HAVE TO SACRIFICE DRUMS OR HORNS ETC COZ THEY AINT ENOUGH ROOM
I usually don't have an opinion about how someone does their thing or what band members get replaced. KISS is obviously soldiering on without Ace, Queensryche is still kicking ass with LaTorre.
But when I have played live and when I see a band live that's what I expect. Are a few things sampled or are sound effects used? Of course. But when the entire song is being played behind the band and they are just playing along to the track, which is also coming through the PA and not just their monitors or in-ears, but being passed off as part of the show, is incredibly unacceptable.
My drummer uses a click track. Best of both worlds
@@joeyvanostrand3655pop has been doing it forever. Kiss is just as lame as brittany spears
Totally agree, no ifs ands or buts
Haha the funny thing is that Kiss (And especially Gene) has always criticized other bands for using backing tracks and credits themselves for being "authentic" by REALLY playing their instruments and REALLY singing their songs live on stage.
Yup!!!
But when you meet a Kiss fan, it explains everything!!!😆😆😆😆
To their credit, kiss actually did perform live for many years. The EoTR tour is when they really started.
So we had about 40 good years of Kiss
I remember when KISS could play this song without computer assistance. My how have times changed (for the worse).
I remember when NO bands used backing tracks. So glad I lived in the era.
I think it's wrong to assume they can no longer play it and that's why they are using tracks. There are many reasons to use tracks and often times those decisions are not even made by the band.
It's musical viagra
@@AmericasChoice I read an interview with Motley Crue tech who said that he had worked in the industry since the 1960s and that people would be surprised to know how many bands used backing tracks back then. So who knows...
@@AmericasChoice when? the 80's?
I've played both with and without backing tracks. Usually, they were in ear tracks just for us to keep time. It's honestly less stressful to not use them and have a more natural groove.
Yes it is! I think non-musicians or hardly players often don't realize that backing tracks are not necessarily easier to work with from a musical performance perspective. Like you said, it can be stressful.
When I play to a backing track or click, my brain focuses on that more since I need to keep that time. I prefer nothing in ear and just having guitar and kick drum in my monitor.
The only reason to put up with the immense risk of failure, is if the backing track is doing some real heavy lifting...!
→ A lacking in the band that can only be compensated for artificially. Like an ageing vocalist who has lost his voice...or a guitar player who hasn't been practicing... Or a drummer who has gotten out of shape..
Or all of the above... 🤷♂️
There you go. No need for 'Band-Aids', just be a good talent and PLAY IT LIVE!
@@garysmith8455i was anti click my whole life (playing live since 96) and earlier this year, i tried the click and turns out. I love it. Never going back to life without in ears
How can you avoid these problems? PLAY THE SONGS LIVE ON STAGE IN CONCERT!
Exactly . Funny how these "problems' have only started appearing in the last few years .
backing tracks aren’t cheating. explain how you get an entire orchestra, or a choir, or an instrument you do not own on stage without a backing track. you *cant.*
The could do a full set of Gene songs. His voice is still the same.
They are playing and singing every part live that they can in their band setting. There just are some parts where they would have to hire extra musicians for the entire tour in order to pull off these songs which doesnt make sense logistically and financially. Other bands may even have orchestral parts etc in their songs and thats where it becomes VERY apparent that they need tracks in order for their songs to make sense. And thats not a bad thing. Every band should write the songs they want to write. If they restrict themselves just because they cant tour with a full orchestra etc they might as well just stop because they will burn themselves out. The only solution to this is using tracks. And as you see in this video using tracks does NOT AT ALL make things easier. If anything it becomes harder to keep track
Their 70
5:46 Q) What do I believe could have prevented this? A) Not playing to a backing track and just going straight, raw, and live.
Thats often not an option if you NEED these additional parts for your songs to make sense. That doesnt mean bands should stop writing the kind of music that has crucial extra parts in it though. Bands should always and forever write what they want to write. Otherwise they will just burn themselves out and stop alltogether. Almost always it just doesnt make sense financially and logistically to tour with all the extra musicians to always make everything happen live. But you need the parts to be there. So the only way to go is using tracks
@@metalpuppet5798 I have to respectfully disagree. We are not talking about Michael Jackson's music, Madonna, or Rush (and they did all the parts in every concert). This isn't Beth, this is Cold Gin. A song they have been playing for decades. It's a straight forward rock & roll song. Theres a lot of footage on UA-cam playing Cold Gin live in the 70s & 80s without backing tracks. Recently l saw Ace playing Cold Gin live & raw. It sounded great!
@@lngodwetrust7117100 percent
@metalpuppet5798 cold gin is one of the most basic songs in rock. It's not master of puppets for f..k sakes 😂
@@lngodwetrust7117agreed
I once went to a pop concert where the artist talked about a past performance when the backing track went wrong, getting the laughs of the audience. The backing track was a multi-layered chorus and in order to duplicate that she would have needed a full choir and that would have been absolutely over budget.
A vocal processor can deliver the same effect. I'm not saying that it wasn't a backing track, but it very well could have been a live performance using a vocal processor.
Then re-work the song and give the audience a special experience.
Why put that song in the setlist?
Maybe it’s just me, but every song I’d record for an album, I’d do so with the knowledge that it might become a hit, or that I might need to play it live.
@@thebluesrockersa vocal processor can replace a recording of a full choir with complex voice leading? Where do I buy such a miracle of a device?
I dislike backing tracks even if nothing goes wrong. When I go to a concert, I want to see a live performance. It's a bit immersion breaking knowing that what I hear isn't actually being played by the band. I appreciate the artistry and knowing that they can improvise or that they may even mess up. Moreover, adapting a complex song so that it can be played live is also part of the creative process. I don't want the album experience, I want the live experience.
You cant "adapt" a song that has carrying orchestral parts, synths or stuff like that in it. Trying that would be an actual "f you" to your paying fans because its never going to work properly. Even if you "just" need one extra guitar player like it would have been the case here you still need to find that player and pay him which often just doesnt make sense to do. Expenses are already crazy enough. However that doesnt mean you shouldnt write these kinds of songs. You should always write what you want to write. Otherwise you are going to burn yourself out. That just means you only have one option which is using tracks
@@metalpuppet5798I think a lot of people hear the words " backing track" and immediately think of a band mock playing their instruments to a recording.
Not quite sure where you're "really" going with this video exposure of Kiss in the midst of their very much publicized and scrutinized "backing track" debacle. You mentioned how you've played with many tracks like shakers etc. That's completely different from what's going on here and you know it. Their songs don't involve anymore than drums, vocals and guitars and maybe a sound effect here and there. "Seasoned pro's" as you put it, they've played this song thousands of times live and rehearsal, and it's beginner level material. So do they need the song playing in ear? Why? This band's music are all generally basic song structures so needing anything more than a click and some added backing vocals are all these "seasoned pro's" should need...no? Why are you really showing this video Mr. AOG, because what's going on here with this band I do not believe is just a case of a shaker goin south....
@@metalpuppet5798I think he knows this. Everyone does. He was just expressing his dislike for them in a live setting and I couldn’t agree more. It takes away from the live feel regardless of the justification to use them
You either want really expensive tickets to pay for hired live instrumentalists, or very bland sounding versions of songs with missing flavor.
If Kiss cant play without backing tracks, stop playing.
It's such a relief to see that sort of thing happening to musicians who have been doing it for decades!
@@richardlaiche8303they are also pissing on thier legacy.
KISS should've retired after the first Farewell Tour back in 2000. They still sounded great, and still played live.
I saw them in 88 and they were terrible.
Sounded great? Volume can’t replace musical craftsmanship. But can cover mistakes like singing out of pitch or grabbing the wrong note on the fretboard. The only good decision was in Kiss music when they decided to stop playing in life shows but it could be better if they would disappear from the music world completely. And knowing the educational level of their hardcore fans, I say, my oldest dog was called dummy because before we got him he lived on the streets, but compare to Kiss fans, he has defenetely a higher IQ than most of Kiss fans!
@@bubamaranovichok4901 🤣
@@bubamaranovichok4901Sorry to hear that a Kiss fan banged your wife. The Kiss Army sincerely hopes that all of your children are actually yours.
@@bubamaranovichok4901the truth
I have missed the start of a count in before. Had a drummer that would ALWAYS do a cymbal rush between songs that we were rolling together, and he had this habit of rushing directly into the 1, so you didn't realize it was starting always. Super tough in a live situation. I don't know that Cold Gin had backing tracks from the sound of the clip, but their whole stage show is synced, so backing track or no, they are always playing to a click so all lights, etc. are synced.
What could have prevented this? Playing live, without backing. Like they did in the 70's. That would've done it. This isn't complicated music.
Totally agree with you can you imagine if Led Zeppelin did this backing tracks the lazy talentless musicians way of playing live I like using backing tracks at home only to jam to other than that live its deceiving and a joke practice makes perfect no need for that crap
Don't make the mistake thinking those alive albums are actually live
@@Duck_Dodgers What do all the fake 70s and 80s live albums that were all actually studio albums have to do with fakery happening right in front of you? Every note of Ted Nugent's "Double Live Gonzo" was actually produced in a studio. But if Nugent had ever pulled that shit live, I'd have run onto the stage, ripped off his loincloth, taken one of his steak knives he used to stab Bambi, and performed the very first live show neutering in music history. If it was an outdoor venue, I'd have tossed Nugent's cock into the upper deck and watched as rabid seagulls played tug-of-war to see who could fly off with the biggest inch.
Good point ! It doesn’t get much easier !
@@MrMick50Or Imagine AC/DC using backing tracks or Metallica
Our drums were rendered and played back from an iPod. The first time we played on a big stage with subs, the singer started the first song, it counted in, everybody started playing, and it went to start another song. And that’s how I learned about Shake To Shuffle. :/
Also, I was going to bring up Lars using the China to count back in, which has become a signature Metallica sound, but it does its job so incredibly well. EVERYONE hears that 4 count.
Hmmm thats super interesting. Lars has done that going back to the 80s and one of the few drummers that does it. It makes sense now that you mention it, it’s very distinctive and loud and a hi hat could be mistaken for something else
I was in a small recording studio in the late 80s and always thought that was a recording tool not a live gig trick. Thanks for the education and great presentation
People these days dont wanna put in the work so all the artificial aids needed. In kiss case, probly deteriorated skills, lack of practice, but still wanting to rake it in.
I learn so much about music from each of your posts. My ears and brain are getting better tuned because of everything you explain. Thank you for doing what you do.
I saw Kiss in the 70’s a few times. Only backing track was on Beth. But it’s vocal was done live. Sure they made mistakes, but they were just human error. Monitors and PA weren’t as good then - but they still sounded better than now.
live in the moment you mostly didnt notice small errors like a bad guitar bend or off key vocal note. it was in the moment, you were there to be one with many other fans and rock N roll. I think everyone having a video camera on their pocket changed it with the critiques, sometimes being quite harsh without need. That has to wear on artists and all in all, the bottom line. I miss times where everyone didnt have a video camera in their pocket for many reasons.
The song Beth required a orchestra
It was clear that an orchestra was not present.I recall that from 1976.
As a drummer, I auditioned for a band that had a "must play to click" demand. The audition went OK, but I noticed there were no backing tracks. They just wanted the drummer on a click, and assured me this is how they had always done things. So...ok.
Our first rehearsal was filled with rookie mistakes, mistakes that a band would make if they weren't used to the drummer on a click - like forgetting to let the drummer click a song in. There was an elongated pause in one song, and the vocalist said he didn't want the drums counting there, and that they'd all just come back in together. I asked "how will you know where the beat is if I'm not counting?" and you could see the confusion. Over the next few rehearsals, I'd keep kind of asking "you guys said this is how you've done it, right?" because they just didn't seem to get that I had a clicker in my ear. After our guitarist REALLY screwed up live, and I had to kick the metronome off, I called the band out, and they finally admitted they had never played to a click.
So another way to avoid these kinds of mistakes - don't lie to your drummer, haha.
what a weird thing to do. i don’t even understand what they were hoping to accomplish by making that up. did they think it would impress you or something?
Like a true guitarist, you pointed out the loose hi-hats. THANK YOU. I've been there. Bloody drummers!
Hey...we drummers go get the pizza when you guys are figuring out the song.
Great breakdown of how the train wreck came to be. You were spot on. Thanks.
Screw all bands that use backing tracks. Play one hundred percent live or give us our money back
I appreciate you describing in detail what's wrong with the performance instead of just showing us the clip and saying "Look at how bad this is!"
Controversy aside, playing live to a backing track just seems like it would be stressful to do. It would drive me crazy if I ruined the performance because I missed a click!
Honestly, I would be a lot more ashamed at making a mistake to a backing track than if I didn't have one.
"It's foreeeever". Loved it, well done!
9:38 you can already do stuff like this using a laptop and Reaper. You can feed the triggers to the DAW as Midi and have markers for the different sections.
I love Reaper - just wish I understood it better (busses, etc)
I was thinking the same thing. You can also do it with Ableton
Essentially a puppet show
Ha! That's a good one...😂
Five nights at Freddy's
And spinal tap
Not really. They are playing everything you hear. All the stuff like lights, video screens are synced to the click.
Or just a well planned, large scale professional one that involves more than just music?
I saw a clip where Paul's voice was going on, but he wasnt anywhere near the mic. He had really great voice during the original farwewell tour 20 years ago or so, but that was a long time ago.
I did the math! Kiss exists equally as long before as after that particular farewell tour 😂
Mike , i have to give you another shout out for your lessons ! they are amazing ! when i first started your system i could barely play a G chord. and just a few months later im on page 2 and im at the bends section. just completed the 70s rock challenge song and im working on the ( clapton style ) bends challenege song now. the amount of progress ive been able to make is honestly insane. to anybody considering, its absolutely the best value out there !! i literally would recommend this to anybody. so much love for you and your lessons Mike!!!
Wait, you're trying to tell me KISS plays to a backing track!? No way, next I bet you're going to tell me Mötley Crue does too! Lmfao
Motley Crue lost the only musician in the band when the pulled the wool over Mick Mars eyes 🎉
Myself,I play in an 80s tribute with ALOT of synth parts. We could never find a dedicated key/synth player so we started using backing tracks.I control them and I also have the click going to my ear. There have been multiple times where the singer will get lost in the vocals and not know where he is and will either come in late or too early on a part and everyone tends to want to follow the vocals. I always stick to the track no matter what and I try to encourage the band to do the same. It may make the vocalist look bad but eventually he'll get back on. Alot of songs have guitar intros, so I have to chick or hit the Hi hats until the drums come in to keep on time with the synth parts that come later. It's alot of work to get right but if done correctly....backing tracks are awesome....bottom line...ALWAYS PAY ATTENTION!!
i.e., the only drugs you should be doing are things like Ritalin 😆 lol
@@docbob1182 Ritalin? that's no fun though...
@@docbob1182why not adderal too, or meth!!! 😆😆😆😆😆😆😆
its refreshing hearing someone talk about the tech.practical side of Kiss's backing tracks and not just talkin shit.
My mom and I used to buy tickets to the San Diego symphony often and sometimes they get movies without the music and play the music live with the movie. The conductor had a screen that showed the beats for the song since movie music is often time based instead of strictly to a metrenome and that allowed him to hit all the beats and speed up and slow down as needed. I think a little screen on the stage with that sort of display would really help, because the guitar, bass, and singer, would all be able to see where things were going to happen ahead of time and they could see if they were off.
That's disrespectful. People pay a lot of money to hear Kiss playing along with a recording?
Rock n roll is supposed to be raw & live
It makes zero sense to hire an extra musician just for that part and maybe some other small things here and there. Expenses are already crazy enough. But they need these parts in order for the song to make any sense. So their only option is to use tracks. This becomes especially apparent when a band has orchestral parts, synths etc in their music. You cant expect them to tour with an entire orchestra etc. Thats financially and logistically impossible. Ticket prices are already shooting through the roof. If every second band started to tour with a full orchestra etc they would probably be 3 or 4 times higher compared to now. Which would result in a massive drop in ticket sales. Which would literally kill bands.
I have to respectfully disagree. We are not talking about Michael Jackson's music, Madonna, or Rush (and they did all the parts in every concert). This isn't Beth, this is Cold Gin. A song they have been playing for decades. It's a straight forward rock & roll song. Theres a lot of footage on UA-cam playing Cold Gin live in the 70s & 80s without backing tracks. Recently l saw Ace playing Cold Gin live & raw. It sounded great!
@@metalpuppet5798 Which parts specifically in Cold Gin would require backing tracks or extra musicians for the song to make sense? That's a simple rock song, easily doable on 2 guitars, bass and drums. Actually, the song doesn't even require 2 guitars.
A lot of people were not aware that Vinnie Paul and Dimebag Darrell were 2 of the biggest Kiss fans ever. They were both burried in Kiss artwork caskets. I can only imagine what they'd think about this.
They would be rolling in their graves .
It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks.
They would be completely ok with it because they would know that it just doesnt make sense to hire an extra guitar player just for a few bits here and there. It becomes especially apparent when its more than "just" one player. Some bands would have to hire entire orchestras to tour with them just to make their songs happen. Thats financially and logistically completely impossible.
I named my cats Darrell and Vinnie paw.
@@RokDAWG1if I paid for a ticket to that show it would matter what I thought.
Thank you for this video. Always been interested in how backing tracks work and what can go wrong.
Our drummer used to record the parts of the song into different trigger positions, so he could map the intro, verse, bridge chorus to their own individual triggers and would listen to click in one ear, tracks/mix in the other, and would simply trigger each part on the 1 of when it needed to come in, so any minute timing issues would be corrected by him on each major part of the song. Lot's of work but very handy and he could just miss the trigger if he got out of sync too bad etc and we never slowed the song down :)
9:19 I was a in-ear/backingtrack tech for a metal band with orchestral backings and Reaper decided to hickup for just a second throwing everything off...
I noticed it and stopped the backingtracks and then marked the next chorus manually with my mouse in the DAW and clicked "play" right on time so they got the orchestral sounds back on. Haha :)
Never used backing tracks before, although I don't have a problem with them if they are used to recreate the studio performance. By that, I mean using them for orchestra and/or choir. IMO that just enhances the live sound. With that being said; I don't want to see any of the band members faking their parts to backing tracks.
Queensryche has been using them since the 80's. I couldn't imagine seeing them play Operation: Mindcrime in its entirety with backing tracks.
The old sloshy hats. I heard it straight away. I drum, bass, guit., pocket can move during a piece - push pull, but transitions have to be by the math. I've heard of wrist watch metronome, you feel the pulse- if they all wore one on wireless, they feel the count off. Also, if Gene or Paul face Eric and raise the neck on 4, slam it down on the 1- just like a furious jam out ending,right?
It happened in an 80s band i subbed in, on, of all songs, Kashmir. Who's feeding the night mare?!🙄
Really great advice man. Thank you!
Kiss has an awesome legacy and some bangers here and there but when you see them live you're essentially just watching a fireworks show. The backing tracks for Paul are obvious and really take away from the show. Not sure how much Gene lip syncs if at all, his voice is still decent enough. Overall it's money you should spend on tickets for an actual concert lol
Yeah it happens. I know plenty of big names artists who use a click track and I’ve seen some horrible train wrecks. It happens. At least that’s a human part of a show. It’s not the same as “backing tracks” used to hide when a band can’t actually play their own songs live.
See, I'm a bit weird about backing tracks, because I like quite a few bands who have layered sounds (or at least multiple guitar tracks) but refuse to have a touring band because it doesn't feel right to have more than just the band itself on stage to them. I think having backing musicians can help quite a bit (and I personally prefer it), but like i was saying, a lot of artists prefer the tracks so they can just have only the core band on stage
@@volutedmetal8543yup, Def Leppard and Metallica are good examples. It’s why I can’t stand either of them live. Because the sound I love is the studio sound with overdubbed guitars and harmonies etc.
But there are very good processors now and even back in the 80’s, that can harmonize the guitar parts and still be played by the original band members. It’s possible, but they just don’t do it.
Digitech 33b does amazing harmonies like the harmonies Metallica created on their albums, and those were made back in the 80’s.
A great example of the digitech 33b is a song from Joe Satriani called “Why”.
In studio, Joe used overdubbed guitars, but live, he only uses the 33b and it sounds amazing!!!!!!
As a pro, multi-keyboardist for many years, all the bands I have been in through the 70ies to 1990, we ALWAYS had 3 backing vocals behind the front man, everyone sang well. We never played with backing ANYTHING, and as a five piece, it is pretty full as it is.
I was really let down when I found out that even (House Of Lords) played with an Apple Ipod with keyboard and vocal tracks! Talk about taking chances /O:
I've really enjoyed your breakdowns. You explain everything so well. Thank.
It's amazing how kiss and motley Crue can still suck that bad while using backing tracks
Let me preface what I'm about to say - KISS is my favorite band of all time. That being said, the band touring right now, IMO, is not KISS. And here's what really irks me about this band using backing tracks (and they have even been accused multiple times in the last few years of not actually playing live at all):
"I have a problem when you charge $100 to see a live show and the artist uses backing tracks. It’s like the ingredients in food - the first ingredient on the label is sugar. That’s at least honest. It should be on every ticket - you're paying $100, 30 to 50 percent of the show is [on] backing tracks, and they'll sing sometimes, sometimes they'll lip sync. At least be honest. It's not about backing tracks; it's about dishonesty." - Gene Simmons, 2015
Gene has also claimed they don't use backing tracks, that they are 100% live. Guess not after all, huh Gene?
Wow, Gene lying? Surely, you jest.
It doesn't look like they are using backing tracks for vocals or the instruments they are playing otherwise no one would have noticed
How dare you?!?!?!?
The fact they feel the need to lie about it proves how unethical the practice is.
Kiss didn’t need them in the past, why do they need them now? Because they’re too old and the greedy bastards are stealing your money.
Yeah,they need Ace back to make it Kiss.
Being practicing drums myself, what I would add (if the situation allow) is to add a loud fill using snare or toms at the last beat in the countdown before going back to the music proper. Usually other performers go back in track with one beat of loud fill, but two beats might be able to help others lock the tempo.
I use an alesis strike multipad for tracks. But instead of using whole song tracks, I break it into its natural pieces, eg..... cho1, v1, cho2, bridge, and on. So I hit the appropriate pad on beat 1 of whatever section were on to trigger that loop. The nice thing about the strike multip is that I set it to restart the click every time I hit a pad so if I'm off for whatever reason, I can make the whole tracking system lock to me
Before I saw this video I had no idea backing tracks were so pervasive in live concerts. I would consider using a backing track during a live performance as a kind of Russian Roulette, really taking chances that things could fall apart at any moment.
Yep. There’s no reason for a band like KISS to use backing tracks nowadays. They did just fine for 40 years without them. Now because Paul can’t sing well anymore, they’ve added a ton of them in to cover his inabilities. The bottom line is, if you can’t hit the notes anymore, don’t pipe in fake vocals. Just change up the song or stop playing that song. And if you can’t play any of your songs properly anymore, then it’s time to hang it up because you’re not giving the audience what they paid to see.
TOO pervasive ☹️
I played with a backing track on a show once. I played the drums so during the songs we used the backing track for I mostly heard the track and a click. However, our sound guy was an amateur, so it turned out that my bandmates couldn't hear anything. They only heard my drums and the backing track. Apart from that, the guitar player fucked up the beginning of the song. The rest of the band didn't hear the click, so the only reference he had was my hi-hat. At the time he was pretty new and his timing wasn't quite there yet. Luckily our singer was listening to me and saved the song by coming in at the right time. Still pretty disastrous. I also believe the crowd only heard the backing track and my drums. We never played with a track again :).
The most trouble free tracks I have used did an 8 beat count in with 4 clicks then with a voice saying “start” 2 3 4. The 1 was always a slightly different sounding click. Then there were voice cues for “verse 1” “chorus” etc… and the “end” was cued and backwards counted 4 3 2 1.
It was a great system. We never had issues knowing where we were or what beat we were on. Plus, it was easy to mix in the ears: The click was one track, the cues another track and the backing tracks were in stereo.
Kool vid man… thanks for breaking that down! 😎🤘
I have nothing against backing tracks but does KISS need a backing track for "Cold Gin"?
exactly.
Yes because it's how Paul's lip synch tracks are cued up.
Congrats on 828k Susbcribers! I think he kept calm and carried on. If that happened to me I think i'd go bright red and and want to disappear from the stage as fast I can, maybe that's a good reason to wear KISS makeup it'll hide my red face haha. I do love Cold Gin, one of my favourites too, "helped 'em get back on track" I see what you did there.
Peter and Ace absolutely LOVE this!!!
FYI: A DJ Application with a MIDI controller (or even a drum pad that sends MIDI) could easily be set to play backing tracks. Also it could skip time (in beats) or even use "hotcues" (playback start memories) for various section of a song.
So the technology exists.. In fact I was able to help a small band do exactly that for their live appearances.
Great Video Mike. I love KISS but I haven’t really been into the whole backing track thing that they’ve been doing. I would much rather see Ace Frehley’s Solo Band live since they don’t use any tracks
Unfortunately, Ace isn't doing well. He's a trainwreck on stage. You can check it out yourself here on UA-cam. What's worrying, he looks medicated or high sometimes.
All of OG Kiss members should retire in my opinion. It's sad but they just don't deliver a good show like they used to.
I've used backing tracks but I can only wonder why ''Çold Gin' needs a backing track, the four of them should be able cut it without the need of a track. Í was made for lovin' you needs one,
Although the pyrotechnics and lighting effects are also synced to the track, so I can see why they use backing tracks. Kiss is impressive though, great showmen.
Some DAWs already have the capability to move around sections as you described. Ableton for example. Reaper can also be setup with markers to move around the song
I love the your idea of a dynamic backing track.
If you can't just pick up a random acoustic & play an entire set you're not worth af! Don't care who you are.
🤘🌎❤
Some of us are blessed with that ability, and I look forward to seeing _your_ videos demonstrating you doing this. But in the case of Kiss, or any other well known band, their fans have paid to see them perform familiar arrangements, not acoustic versions. It's a shame they chose to use backing tracks, but that's their choice. I suspect they thought very few people would notice.
Super interesting video! I can sort of relate. (In my own little beginner world lol) I recently have gotten very into looping and playing over my loops. I often will start or stop the loop slighly off click causing everything to sound off after a loop
In my opinion, I think the 2 and 4 on the Hihat is actually less confusing than having all the four counts. The 2 and 4 is where you usually hit your snare in, so that helps alot more to with determining which count you are in.
We've had a few epic mishaps with our backing/click tracks...we've had tempos get crossed up, the wrong song plays, or someone came in too early (we do Keep Me Hanging On by Kim Wilde, and our singer had a tendency to jump in a measure early throwing everyone else, which desynchs all of the orchestral hits in the choruses...I count her in now). We've had to cut the click quite a few times because things just went off the rails. Like the time our click for She-Bop (Cyndi Lauper) accidentally had a speed up programmed in, so we wound up playing it at like 175 BPM instead of 140.
Call me old school, but I figure if you need a backing track for Cold Gin, you should have retired long before now.
100%
When i was in highschool i played in a talent show and we played a slayer song and sepultura song during the solo on the slayer song the guitarist couldn't figure out when to solo so i said ill hit him when it was time to start and then hit him again when to stop, so after i hit him he started but when i hit him again he didn't stop so i punched him really hard and he almost fell over but we never lost time an kept playing
LoL! That is a great story!🤣
I'm so pleased that when I was playing (drums) in bands, backing tracks and 'live' click-tracks were still several years into the future. Glad I'm not playing now.
Excellent video, thank you. I love the classy manner in which you point these glitches out… no troll-like comments. Bravo! Liked and subscribed.
We have the entire band with in-ear monitors. All members here the click in the left ear and the mix in the right ear. We have approximately 160 songs tracked with various instrument and sound fills. Been doing it for more than 10 years. You get a miss. We put the Hi-Hat in the left ear for specific cues. I make all our tracks with individual instruments mixed down.
It is funny that Milli Vanilli and Ashlee Simpson lost their careers over this type of shenanigans.
LOL
What’s sad that it’s accepted today….
Great breakdown... My question is what part(s) of the song(s) is/are on the backing track and which parts are live? (and how much is too much?).
Saw them at Tiger stadium on the very first reunion show - so LOUD !!! So much fun !!!
I do have a couple backing track horror stories for y'all today :)
1. So we did a backing track for the first song of our set because it was really upbeat and the white noise is pretty prominent in the record. I don't usually have the actual track up very high in my ears, just the click (I was playing EG for this set). Well, the rehearsal went amazing with the track and we were all fired up and ready to play 30 minutes later. Unfortunately, for some unknown reason our in-ears had reset during the break and I ended up with no click and just the white noise to gauge the song by. Even more unfortunate was the fact that the white noise was intentionally tracked to peak between beats so between the drummer and the white noise, I couldn't figure out where we were. I ended up just taking out my in-ears until the end of that song and thankfully the drummer still had a click so it ended up turning out okay. I was completely lost for the first thirty seconds though and repeatedly looked back at the drummer to see if he had noticed anything strange, which of course he hadn't.
2. This was a pretty big set with maybe 400-500 people watching in the crowd. We got our cue to start before we were really ready, but the drummer didn't notice and started the track. As a result, the first 10 seconds were a complete mess as nobody was on the same count. We ended up canceling the track and following the drummer. The rest of the set went fine thankfully, but that's the kind of thing that can easily ruin an entire concert because you all get shaken up.
I saw most of all the big name concerts in the 70's and this was never an issue. I dont know all the real reasons the backing tracks are being used now. I was recently watching a video of a popular band that's been on the road over 40 years. I know the vocals were on a backing track from an album about 30 years ago because the lead singer's voice is shot. I think there comes a time when the band faces the reality that it's time to go home. The ticket prices continue to go up, while the show sucks. I respect the bands more that that just get out there and give it their best shot than the ones that try to pull one over on their loyal fans.
Most bands that use backing tracks aren't "trying to pull one over" on their fans. They're trying to enhance the songs and make them sound like they do on the albums. Like Pink Floyd, with all of their sound effects on Dark Side. It adds to the experience.
Backing tracks was even there in late 70s and 80s, it's not like if it was a "new" thing.
@@MikeYeary totally different situation. We are talking about Cold Gin. There is no need for any backing tracks or lip syncing on this song.
Backing tracks have existed since the conception of audio recording. At this scale it's never not been done. If someone told you'd they sold out a stadium for a concert and that they did it "RAW" they are lying. The level of production required to make any of these acts actually sound good to EVERYONE in the audience requires backing tracks and artificial layering. Its ultimately the sound tech's fault that any of this happened.
I wonder if things like this did happen, just people didn't have cellphone cameras and mistakes went viral back then like they do now...
I've been the victim of the technical failure with a track on Sunday mornings at church. I've also been the one who messed up by coming in on the wrong beat a few times. 🙄
In the case of Kiss (sounds like a Perry Mason or Matlock episode title) wouldn't all 4 guys have the same audio prompts in their IE system? Or is it only Eric?
I was against backing tracks when we started using them, but they've become an essential part to our playing. It helps keep things together much, much better for us. I've also found in some more difficult spots that having eye contact with the drummer helps.
I guess the felt that only the drummer needs the click. Having ALL be on IEMs so they can hear click and cues may have helped in this situation for sure
for someone who listens a lot to iorn maiden, Nicko's approach to counting into any maiden song is so iconic, clear and easy to recognize.
maiden fanboy here. i've seen maiden countless times, and nicko's tempo is definitely what you could call "fluid" hahaha. saw them in sept...he started the prisoner WAYYYY too fast, then when they got into the verse, he slowed it down wayyyy too much. this happened several times , every time i've seen them. it's sort of the fun of it all.
Its a huge production. These days a ton of bands play to tracks to keep on time more with pyro and lights than an issue with performance. (Yes vocals too) I have a track in my ears playing at church. Its very common. Everyone knows whats in store at a KISS show. Dont go if you don't like it but plenty will and thats ok too. Personally im excited to see them one more time in November.
Exactly! The show is ran with the click and controls pyro and video.. Gotta have it. Have fun at the show. I still havent seen them and been a fan since 1978..lol
To be fair, they held it together with enough glue and masking tape to get back on it. People can bash backing tracks all they want, but you can see these guys ARE playing otherwise it would be a miming sync problem, which it wasn't. No big deal and they handled it well.
Really good breakdown
Words of wisdom as always.
I agree that kiss is wrong for tracks, but damn do they put on a show. They are one of the only bands I'd want to see live even if the whole thing was mimed.
I don't feel bad for them as they should not be using backing tracks in the 1st place . SMH .
Sometimes it just doesnt make sense financially and logistically to hire another guitar player or often for other bands even an entire orchestra etc. When it comes to the latter it might even be completely impossible to do that. Using tracks does NOT mean you arent playing every part you can actually play. There just are some extra parts that need to be there in order for the song to make sense. And that is why there are tracks. It has NOTHING to do with anyone on stage not playing or singing. Thats playback/lip syncing. And playing to tracks is NOT easier than playing without. This video shows that pretty clearly
@@metalpuppet5798 cold gin? They needed a backing track for cold gin? They now officially joined the ranks of Madonna and Taylor swift
Same song similar situation for me about 35 years ago. We would start the song with the guitar, I'd come in playing hats on 2 and 4, do a 2 measure intro fill that would signal the bass and other guitar to come in. Did it many time in practice, but one night in a club for whatever reason the second guitar and bass came in on my fill as if I were playing hats on 1 and 3. the expected cacophony came after for a couple of measures with everyone trying to cover with some lead licks. I did a 2 measure floor tom/ snare build up and counted off 1 2 3 4. and we snapped back into the song in synch.
That same night, there was a song (cant remember the name but it's a song by London) that used a swing beat. The singer called an audible that I missed so when he counted off, I launched into a swing beat and the rest of the band started I Wanna Be Sedated.
your onto something! i drummed in a cover band and had complete control of triggering the tracked events.the important stuff like chorus sections/horn parts/intros/outs... tempos had to be watched a bit but i think muchvbetter than playing to a click the whole song making canned music. im sure theres software being made that can smart figure how to adjust where the backing tracks need to be based on the live feed.
Easiest way to prevent this is just to play live. If you have to lip sync it’s time for a career change. And as bad as Kiss may have felt during this train wreck, imagine how bad the fans felt once they realize they paid to see a live show and were instead fleeced and paid to see Milli Vanilli dressed like Kiss.
Unfortunately kiss fans don't care they got to see oh my God kiss lol
Simple…. Just NEVER use backing tracks. If I want audio perfection I’ll buy the album if I pay to see live music I don’t want to hear recorded music. Mind you… I’ve never felt the inclination to hear either from Kiss. When I play in covers bands doing AC/DC songs (for example) with one guitar, everyone knows it doesn’t sound precisely the same as the original but they love it because it is 100% LIVE!
True listen to The Who live at Leeds probably the best live album evernothing but creativity and on the spot improvisation like all other bands of this era. If I wanted to hear how it was actually played I would just listen to the album why go to a show this new generation has no clue
@@MrMick50and yet, when they played Baba O’Riley and Won’t Get Fooled Again in the 1970s, the original keyboard parts were played on a backing track because of the impracticality of replicating them.
Shinedown is one of my favorite bands to see but I skipped their last couple live shows because the last time I saw them they were using backing tracks galore and a lot for vocals. I saw Shinedown after they released their first album on the “Leave a Whisper” tour and it was raw. Brent Smith who is one of the best male vocalist in history imo was cracking all over towards the end of the show and it forced him to change what notes he hit and still sounded amazing.
In my opinion, the only backing track any band should use is for sound effects. There should never be backing tracks of any of the instruments that are on stage, if you can't play them live, you shouldn't be playing them at all
The explanation is even cringier than using backing tracks. Haha. Have fun with all this junk. We used to have actual LIVE performances…. Kinda builds a bond with your paying fans… imagine that!
They play everything live that they can play. For some extra bits it just doesnt make sense financially and logistically to hire extra musicians. This becomes especially apparent when we are talking about orchestral parts, synths etc etc. Its just simply completely impossible to tour with all these extra musicians. Thats where you simply dont get around using tracks or your songs wont make sense. And it actually is harder to coordinate playing and singing live to tracks playing extra layers than it is to not have tracks.
If you charge people money for a live show and don't disclose that you use backing tracks you should be sued for false advertising
Seems a bit harsh, I think these days with social media bands get exposed for the slightest thing and that should give most of them something to consider when doing stuff like backing tracks or auto-tune etc.
HAHA I knew someone would say some dumb shit like this lmao (get over it old man)
Backing tracks are absolutely necessary to make a lot of styles happen live and they DO NOT mean the band doesnt or cant play live. As a band you need to write the stuff you want to write. If that includes extra parts like orchestral parts, synths or even extra guitar parts you dont have a player for then so be it. If you restrict yourself creatively you are going to burn out and stop entirely. The entire band still plays their instruments FULLY live and as you can see playing to a track does NOT AT ALL make things easier. It makes them harder. Its none of your business how a band achieves their live show as long as they play their instruments and sing live. Which they absolutely do. You just NEED those extra parts in your songs otherwise they dont work. And you cant always hire additional musicians, an entire orchestra etc etc. That is not only financially impossible for most bands but also logistically.
It depends on what the backing track is. If you're using a backing track to mimic an instrument that normally isn't on the stage, it's fine. (A song that has a keyboard, but you're a four piece rock band, for example.) The problem for me is when you use a backing track to replace your instrument that you are supposed to be playing live on stage is where I think there is an issue.
As long as the people on stage are playing there isn't false advertising. If everything is fake then sure.
Excellent description of what happened!
What you are describing here sounds a lot like Beat Buddy. I played a ton of shows with one, and i had to switch song parts and trigger fills and transitions while playing guitar/hitting my effects pedals/singing and had many disasters where the part got triggered at the wrong place and sometimes i would mean to press/hold it to trigger transition/fill to next part and maybe it was a a bar too early or if i double tapped on accident it would stop the song and at the time i hadn’t programmed an external midi pedal with the names of the song parts, so i had to either drop the drums for the rest of the song (there was no other drum sound) or restart the song and try to press/hold to do transition, over and over until it caught up to the right song part. But with beat buddy and the little bluetooth midi controller they make, one could absolutely do exactly what you described.
I don't use Ableton much but it's good for the live triggering stuff you talk about here.
I Played 8 years in a professionnal cover band as a drummer. It started with an MP3 player with the Click on the left and the mono backingtrack on the right xD.
Then I quickly bought the Roland SPD-SX. There is a cool feature where you can route the signals through different options, like Phone output Only, Main and Sub output.
So for example a cowbell/clap/percussion sample would go out the "main" output and the backingtrack goes through a Sub/secondary output. So the mix guy can have full control of the different elements.
Then you can also link 2 PADS, so when you hit the first it triggers automaticaly the second. Ideal to trigger Click (routed to phone output) AND the backingtrack at the same time (routed to SubOut).
The sampler also has a inbuild click, so there were songs where I had the click from the sampler, and just hit a pad with only a backingtrack on it, that's great when you want more control of the different parts of a song, for example if in the song there is a slowdown that can't really be played on a click without being strange. Then I would press click and hit exactly on the 1 beat to trigger the Backingtrack. It's great but if you are off tempo when you hit the PAD, you're dead xD.
My kids are learning to play, and want to start playing live at open mic nights and small stuff like that (they are pretty young). One thing I'm having trouble with is getting them to know when the changes are coming for their songs. I know that they couldn't really play to a backing track, but the screen/clicktrack invention thing mentioned in the video is making me really ponder what a real world simple idea could be to keep two kids in sync on where the changes are in the song. They are basically writing little punk type songs and doing covers of white Stripes tunes and stuff like that so far. Any suggestions for a way to keep them synced up would be appreciated.
Practice a lot will solve all synch problems..
You’re absolutely right about what he could have and should have done. The kick is a great marker.