I believe they were referring to the "Withdraw" Cunning Strike feature "move half your speed without triggering opportunity attacks." Speedy makes that feature better because it increases your total speed, thus your half speed is more.
My favorite part of the new Rogue is that a level 4 Human Scout can have proficiency in all skills if they take Skilled for each feat choice. You may be a bit behind in combat, but just the fact that you can do that is just the vibes I like about this game
I still can’t believe WotC took Disarm away from Cunning Strike! I understand it didn’t come up much but when it did it was RAD. And who was I hurting? It’s not like they gave us a new option to replace it.
I feel like the advantage with stealth from skulker is massive overkill for a rogue, taking in you already have expertise in stealth and reliable talent.
if it was old reliable talent I'd disagree but you get it so early now you'll probably get it before any magic items that'd give advantage, tho I will say most rogues would immediately take the loot if it gave advantage on stealth
@@AwesomeWookiee People also need to remember that Stealth in dnd isn't disappearing from existence like in mmos, the enemies don't suddenly forget you are there. In most cases you need something to hide behind, and in lot of battle maps, it wont to be too difficult for any monster with even average Intelligence to realize your most likely hiding behind that one rock big enough to hide behind in the vicinity of where you were last seen taking a shot, so all they need to do is walk over there and around the rock to direct line of sight of you, and they will automatically see you, even if you rolled 30 on your Stealth check.
With expertise, I typically end up using one or two to boost those skills that I want to be a core part of my character, but their underlying ability score is low. Add expertise, and suddenly they're right up there on par with every other proficient skill. Sometimes this is a lot more important to character concept than being obscenely good in yet another Dexterity skill.
I always grab Expertise in Stealth but, only because my Rogues don’t fail those checks…it’s thematic and fulfill my party role. We play with a pretty big group of 5 PC’s so, I always tend to get my second Expertise in whatever the others don’t really have or want…I just bake it in to the fluff of my character. Stealth is a “must” though since it’s my favorite play style AND my friends count on me to play that role.
I've been playing a Wood Elf Rogue for almost 3 years now. He is the most anti-Rogue Rogue ever. One of his vices is that he is too trusting when he shouldn't be. He is too honest with people that maybe he shouldn't be spilling secrets to. He spent over 15 years as a detective, 25 years as a scout in the military, and 10 years as a Nick Valentine-esque Private Investigator. It started from a place of me really enjoying Rogues mechanically, but really not enjoying all the typical backstory/background tropes. My favorite character I've ever played by far.🙂
@@groovydude4511 I love that. So much more fun than min/maxing a typical human rogue. We all have to make sure we continue to work “flaws” into our characters, even if the 2024 character sheet got rid of that. It’s such a good and easy way to add interest and fun to your character.
For the chart, I think it would make it a bit clearer to have the "do you have advantage" yes arrow to go to "do you have disadvantage" as one could have a source of advantage and disadvantage and thus not be able to sneak attack.
I have played a rogue who didn't even have proficiency in stealth, he was this loud and boisterous guy who loved making grand entrances, this was a grim hollow character using a flintlock pistol as his weapon of choice, which was also really loud.
@@TheGloryXros Rogues' Sneak Attack works with Ranged Weapons or Weapons with the Finesse Property. While they all use DEX, Finesse can use either STR or DEX. With Cunning Strike, it dissuades STR-based build solely because it's keyed off of, DEX.
@@TigerW0lf Grappling uses strength, with the grappler feat you get advantage on all of your attacks (auto sneak attack). Just to give an idea that doesn't require homebrew or multiclassing. As for a STR multiclass build that is great for rogue, barbarian has almost only features that are good for a rogue {rage = taking even less damage and dealing more damage, danger sense is great for your evasion feature, reckless attack is garanteed sneak attack since you generate your own advantage and extra attack and most can be gained with only minor multiclassing} or paladin for sneak smites, which probably works best on an arcane trickster and we can have fun with a whip for a change. (since whips have such a small damage die, but they are the only 1-handed finesse weapon with reach and both paladin and rogue don't depend on the dice size of their weapon die to deal damage to an enemy. besides zoro seems to me like he could be a paladin/rogue, okay for mechanical reasons I prefer wielding a scimitar and whip rather than a rapier and a whip which would have been more Zoro accurate, but a scimitar is more swish-swish that is so iconic rather than just poke-poke)
For me the thing rogues do that defines them is cunning action. With free strikes making movement so restrictive, rogues can actually still move around and do things.
I'm surprised y'all didn't use Cpt. Jack Sparrow as an example for a type of Rogue. Great vid as always Dudes, looking forward to the next class breakdown
6:12 also means Rogues get proficiency in pistols as they are a martial weapon with the light property. Finally, I can play a swashbuckler pirate without having to get a feat.
Second comment, don't be mad! Chris (Treantmonk) is coming up on 100000 subscribers! I'd love to see a D&D UA-cam community celebration similar to how Kraken Week turned out. Let's get Chris, Colby, you guys, and anyone else you can pull in (DC20 and Insight Check?) Do a series to celebrate Chris. I first became aware of Treantmonk's Temple years ago with his "God wizard" article and that got me into the idea of builds and optimization. Perhaps we get a bunch of creators to do a [minimal damage but maximum impact] build, or everyone brings a Barbarian (world tree) 6/Monk Y. I love this community and your friendship and collaboration! Can't wait to see what comes!
Thanks for this great deep-dive into 2024 D&D, guys. Honestly, I’m so sick of all of the “I hate wizards of the coast” content on UA-cam out there. I get it, and I’m not a content publisher, so maybe I would feel differently if I was, but I honestly just don’t care about the corporate politics. It’s a business, and where there is money to be made there will always be corporate drama. I just like playing this game. And I’m excited about trying out the new rules and the new character options. Maybe you don’t love what WotC is doing either, but it seems like you can also distance yourselves from that and just enjoy playing the game that we all love. Looking forward to more of your class overviews and subclass rankings! Thank you!
The problem is that WotC’s actions hurt the game. D&D is great because of its community. WotC has not been very consistently friendly to that community lately. WotC has also not been very kind to its workers, which of course also impacts the game. Finally, I think we should care about how the things we buy are made, especially for things that are non-essential, like games. We live in a (bad) economic system where you vote with your wallet, that implicates us in our purchases. I don’t want to give money to a company that is exploiting its workers. I’m not talking about WotC here, I just mean generally, I think we should all care about what we buy.
In regards to the sneak attack flowchart, I would add one thing (though this may have changed from the 2014 rules): if you are an Inquisitive Rogue, is your Insightful Fighting ability active, and if so, do you NOT have Disadvantage on the attack roll? If all those conditions are met, you also get to use Sneak Attack on this roll if you hit. Note: I was often isolated from the party during my first campaign, and this ability allowed me to do some serious damage while trying to kite the attackers towards the party tank.
Ive been playing a harengon pirate swashbuckler drunken master multiclass with a +15 to initiative. Free disengages are so great as i can move in, attack twice, bonus double punch, and back away with no attacks of opportunity coming at me. Love it
it's worth pointing out that if you end up playing as a thief rogue you're definitely gonna wanna pick up arcana expertise at some point, even if you have -1 int by level 13 when you get the ability to use any spell scroll your proficiency is +5 which means your overall modifier will be +9 and your minimum roll will be 19 so you can cast any spell from a scroll automatically
I wouldn't discount using True Strike as an Assassin Rogue. So having a high mental stat (say Int and getting the spell via Magic Initiate by going human) allows it to replace the attack and damage rolls, as well as upgrade in damage. Unleash that as your opening strike as an Assassin, and enjoy some mega damage.
I spent ALL DAY yesterday updating my level 5 Rogue and tried to piece together bits of info from your other videos + the new PHB. I could have just waited 10 hours for this video 😭 picking the spells I wanted for my AT Rogue was the hardest part. thanks for the video! Also I think the link for the flow chart is missing from the video description
i like t get my wisdom HIGH! being Savvy and all that, perception/'insight etc, and jsut getting to a `2 in charisma isnt bad when the proficiency bonus and Reliable Talent kicmk in, im still VERY charismatic :D
Another really good feat for melee rogue is Sentinel! It can help stop enemies from running past you to the backline and if the enemy attacks your buddy next to you that you're proccing sneak attack off of, you get an OOO, which is allow for more sneak attack damage (reminder, sneak attack is once per turn, not once per round).
A good feat for a Soulknife Rogue is Shadow-Touched. It gives you not only access to the Invisibility spell, but also Wrathful Smite, which is a necromancy spell, for extra damage.
I think the forest gnome with its minor illusion cantrip is an excellent choice and the rock gnome with prestidigitation to create distractions and to shut down lights. :-)
Early part of the vid so far: I always liked Rogue to be made the assassin/ninja builds but also, always loved the idea of shadow monk/trickery cleric for the additional fantady version and i wanna see how you guys tackle to monk after this.
My favorite Rogue build in 2017 5e was 10 rogue and 10 Whispers bard. I sacrificed none of the damage due to the whisper bard's psychic blades, and I had up to 5th level spell slots.
@@woutvanostaden1299 i personally chose soul knife so i could always have an open hand for my instrument, and if gave my class a psychic theme around it, but it could work with most any subclass
i love cunning strike, tho i do wish they had bumped the sneak attack dice by 1 or 2 to make up for the damage youre giving up, but then people would just go all in for damage so idk i think its pretty good
Fav class, one of a few where I would consider not multiclassing. For ATs, get Telekinetic AFTER going AT so you double the Hand range & can shove for fun. But not for my Next Rogue Character: Tabaxi trickster / Shadow Monk 6 for teleportation. Will homebrew/lie so I get the 2014 Shadow spell list.
I'm gonna reinforce that last tip about roleplaying: don't explain the noodle incident. If you want your character to have a big fear or won't take jobs involving a random animal, don't explain it to the other players, in or out of character. It's more fun for them to make their little theories about what it is than to actually learn what the incident was.
@@apjapki it depends on how the other players react. If they _aren't_ doing a bunch of whispers in the background and their characters don't bring it up on occasion "hey so what's the deal with snakes?" then there _isn't much to lose_ by explaining it at some point. But noodle incidents (I misremembered the trope name at first) are a long standing trope in fiction, and it's widely accepted that it's more fun for the fans to have all their different wacky theories than for the writer to show the canon explanation. Now, a D&D table is usually 3-8 people and not thousands of thousands, so there isn't going to be the same scale of fan theories. But if your friends are engaging with the mystery, keeping inconsequential parts of your backstory a secret is usually more fun. (Don't keep _major_ secrets that affect the game without discussing that out of character.) Also, never explaining the noodle incident means that you don't have to come up with the reason, just the outcome. Twice the fun with half the work. (If you want a video recommendation, Overly Sarcastic Productions made a "Trope Talk" about noodle incidents.)
@@josephschubert6561 I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm in a room with four guys. If I start saying my character cries when tomato is added to salad, they aren't going to theorycraft. They are going to say, "quit being a weirdo, we have sh*t to do". I get it to an extent but it depends on the vibe in your group and how sandboxy your game is. I put loads of quirks on my characters and it never comes up unless it's plot relevant. We all have mystery back stories, none of us are main characters and the plots we are unfolding are already complex enough. Stuff you actually do in the sessions as a result of the gameplay means waaaay more than backstory anyway for developing quirks and emblematic behaviour.
I feel like it's really unfortunate that the Soulknife knife has to be supplemented by an actual dagger since you'd want the Nick property on a second weapon for the extra attack built into your attack. I guess it's nice that you don't need to take dual-wielder to get the bonus action attack though.
Why not mention that a spell scroll saving theif at lvl 17 can get 4 spells off in a round? They can use the magic action as a ba, and the new rulings mean you can cast multiple spells as long as only one spell slot is used. Imagine a thief wielding a staff of magi, a staff of power, maybe a legendary artifact, and tons of spell scrolls and they just go to town against anything in their way. Though you would need to dip into a magical class to wield staffs and wands
Oops! Careful. The Speedy feat (formerly known as Mobile) no longer prevents opportunity attacks from anyone you've melee-attacked. Instead, it gives disadvantage on all opportunity attacks against you.
Arcane trickster with borrowed knowledge and enhance ability is really nasty with reliable talent. Proficiency and advantage on any skill you need for an hour and the worse you can roll is a 10 is kinda bonkers.
As the dragonborn fan I am, Chromatic Green dragonborn Assassin Rogue * drools * poison WILL be absolutely nasty! And I will drag in and convert the Gem dragonborns from Fizbans Treasury of Dragons too! Gem dragonborn for Soulknife and other classes sub-classes like : Psi Warrior, Aberrent Mind is just... CHEFS kiss and not only thematically. And yeah halflings for Thief Rogues for sure! Gnomes for Arcane Trickster too!
Considering 2 of the 4 2024 subclasses for rogues use INT for saving throws, its seems rather strange that none of your suggested builds recommend it as the 2nd, or even 3rd, skill... it is especially interesting that 2 of the 3 builds lean towards CHA when the Swashbuckler isn't one of the 2024 PHB subclasses, though I do understand CHA based skills may play a larger part in campaigns than INT based ones. Perhaps it is more for really embracing the sauve rogue
I think its funny how the rogue's strength is not in pure combat but in skill checks is just now being brought up in conversations. I've been watching Drakkenheim for a long time now and notice just how many skill checks Wilhelm passed that could of had a different outcomes in the situations where he didn't. That being said, I do want to point out that expertise can make you super efficient in one skill, it can also shore up a lesser skill that you might still want. For example: A rogue might really like to jump on things for vantage points and not have a climb speed but if they want to jump they'll need to roll well on athletics. However, even if you were to have a 10 in strength, expertise in athletics will still give you a +4 at levels 1-4 and a +6 at 5-8 and so on. Might not be as good as having +23 to stealth but with reliable talent, you can still make a +18 in Athletics at that level. Of course, this applies to any skill you might want as well like deception, arcana, etc etc.
Another unique rogue backstory idea comes from someone in my playgroup who did a CHA focused Arcane Trickster based on MCU Loki. Their social skills came from being around high society, their knowledge skills from was his privileged upbringing, and his physical skills came from learning how to slip away from the guards to pull pranks on people.
I do like these class reviews. In the future, what are the chances of an alternate class review and ranking? In a party without a rogue, which classes can best fill the role? For example, my party just lost our assassin rogue, and the player brought in an Oathbreaker as a replacement. Then the rest of the table looked to my artificer to find traps and open locks. Given that the Dudes players tend to avoid clerics in liveplay, that got me wondering.
Pretty much always my favorite class in every single RPG game ever. Maybe it's because I always enjoyed solo play and rogues are excellent for that purpose... not because I relate to being a thief or assassin who lacks morals and common sense! I promise 😏😅🤷♂
Dual-wielding Rogues with a tendency towards magic may consider using a club as one of their weapons, as it can be buffed with Shillelagh in addition to True Strike.
rogue with an elemental warrior dip and a whip (as well as the grappler feat) is hilarious. Since we can grapple them from a distance with an unarmed strike an then gain advantage on all attacks that we make that turn by chucking a dagger at them for nick and whip em good. This would definitely be a combo I would pursue if I ever get to play in a gestalt campaign. 🤣😁😁😆
Loved your video, very helpful! I am a relatively new DM and I have a question on sneak attack. In your flow chart, you have "Is at least one of your allies within 5ft of the target?". In game, I take that as your ally is occupying the attention of your enemy to allow the sneak attack to occur. But if the ally had a reach weapon does this increase that factor to 10ft? I was curious to get your thoughts.
26:00 I don't like paying double with point buy except for Dex. Especially the "skill expert" and especially if there's no Int based character in the party.
Kelly What is a Care Bear slang? "A player who is not a griefer; one who dislikes, or tries to prevent, trouble in the game world" sounds like Kelly to me 💗
Rogues get whips now! Dual Wielder feat got nerfed to not let you ignore light property. Sad. But, steady aim with a whip is juicy to stay out of melee range from most foes.
I was kind of disappointed I was hoping that you'd take the opportunity in this video to discuss the poisoner feet and how it works in conjunction with the assassins ability.
I think they do the classic archetypes of cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard first and then go alphabetically. Unless they're doing it out of order, which I'm pretty sure they aren't
A Thief/Warlock using Eldritch Blast normally and on a scroll can cast EB twice on his turn if he still has EB on a scroll. But then I ask myself, if I am a Thief why would I be using that kind of build?
Think you guys are missing a “True Strike Build” Max either Int or Cha one Level in fighter for medium armor and the Archery fighting style 14 Dex and Shoot Away. I think this is a sleeper build, but will turn out to be one of the very best options.
You mean the build treantmonk just put out a video about? I get it but lots of rogues won’t wanna deal with magic at all due to desired fantasy. I’m already exhausted hearing about how every build should use magic initiate back ground feat and take true strike.
I feel like the Thief rogue is being slept on. Using the magic action for items as a bonus action is huge. A reasonable Int, expertise in Arcana and reliable talent will allow succeeding in the d20 test to cast high-level scrolls seem like easy mode. Essentially, you gain the ability to quicken cast spell scrolls.
It's great.... if you can get spell scrolls. Not every table gives them out as loot or gives you downtime to craft. Thief is a definition B tier subclass. It's meh, maybe C tier when you don't get the items or time. Can easily be S tier if your table does do that, but there is no way to assume that
I allways wanted to play Thief with compulsive urge to take things from anyone ... but my DM was against it, fearing some bad blood in our group. And so we created a solution together: Any time, any of the 'other players' want, they may state that they cant find some things in their posessions ... and acuse my Rogue of stealing. And then, it depended on me ... either i admit that i stole it, and we roleplay futher (usualy i simply returned the item with some lame excuse that they forgot it somewhere and i totally meaned to give it back the whole time, i just ... got distracted meanwhile) ... or i deny that, showing them that my Rogue dont actually have the item, and they "find out" they put it elsewhere and i was indeed inocent. (We agreed that my character would never lie about this to his party.) We had a lots of fun, my Rogue was stealing even from their own party, and no player ever got angry about it. ^_^ Feel free to adopt. ;)
Arcane Trickster is good everywhere right? Great utility spells, Green Flame/Booming/Shadow Blade (XGtE) and True Strike for melee, True Strike for range. (Greater) Invisibility, Sleep theft or assassination, Detect Thoughts, Blindness/Deafness, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Fire Shield!, Knock/Arcane Lock, Snare (XGtE), Disguise/Alter Self, Hold person, Levitate, Locate object, Misty step, Web, Darkness, Silent Image, Minor/Major Illusion, Illusory Script, rituals Detect magic, Identify, Alarm, Comp. languages, Find Familiar, Hypnotic pattern, Glyph of warding, Nondetection, Arcane Eye. Oh my goodness, there are not enough spell slots and known to cast all these x'P
Since ATs now apparently have access to all Wiz spells, go for Flame Stride (3rd Lv.) too. Speed increase, prevents opportunity attacks. Dash, set things on fire, continue with Roguey shenanigans!
@@Reepicheep-1I love the idea of using flame stride to free up the bonus action and give the fire part to exstinguish for the pyrotechnics spell: smokescreen option and add blink and bonus action hide in the smoke, due to skulker providing 10 ft blindsight it becomes like playing whack-a-mole. Is he here, no d*mn it, is he here, no d*mn it, is he, well you get the idea. And we can still cast counter spell when we dissapear.
Why would you ever use shortbow with a rogue over light crossbow? You never get extra attack making light crossbow just strictly better. Also Vex is pretty much pointless for a ranged weapon rogue since you can always get advantage with aim anyways.
Steady Aim locks you down from moving and eats your Bonus action. A lot of what keeps Rogue alive is how evasive they are on the battlefield. So Steady Aim takes that evasiveness away. Unless you are an Assassin Rogue who just ignores that speed loss.
@@nealenthenerd399I love the idea of hiding (using cunning action hide) in a smoke screen or similar spell while having 10 ft of blind sight. It's just that setting this up and being a lvl 13 thief is hard since ideally I would like to also have the blink spell. 😅😊
swedish chef soulknife with 1lvl fighter. bork bork bork throw your dagger. and coock with weapon. that my my current build. nothing beat muppet autognome
(So far) It seems 5e.2024 (I have not gotten my PHB copy yet) is just an amalgamation of the previous supplement guides. Tasha's, Xanathars, Volo's, etc. The mechanics of the game itself haven't really changed, just the means and tools, through the buildable PCs have, in which players and DMs play the exact same game. So, it really seems 5e.2024 is just the official D&D creators homebrew version of 5e.2014, they modified and want us to adopt. We already play our homebrew versions from the PHB 2014 and all the supplement guides... why do we need their 5e.2024?! What... what am I missing?
@@ahorseofcourse7283 No... you may want to edit that for a 3rd time. My point isn't a variable of understanding the word "Homebrew", it's asking what's the point of buying the 5e.2024 PHB, when it's almost exclusively just an amalgamation of supplementary guides, (Tasha's, Xanathar's Volo's, etc.) added onto the 2014 PHB. I've watched the DD for years and seen all their videos... their previous videos on 5e.2024 do nothing to address my point, and in fact, help to corroborate it. But thanks for responding.
@MarkLewis... it sounds like it just isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with that. I personally find the value in the work they did to help out martial characters. Also, how much better organized this book is.
@@Small_Panda Still no. I'm trying to see if it's for me and my group, but I just don't get the point of buying a new book, when it's just (again) an amalgamation of the books we already have? Is the new price tag justified to have all the books we already have, in a book we may not need. I'm not against 5e.2024, I just don't see a need to spend 100% more money on it, if it's only 5% new information.
Speedy doesn't negate opportunity attacks. It just makes those attacks against you have disadvantage.
It is likely they confused it for the 2014 Mobile feat that did prevent opportunity attacks.
I believe they were referring to the "Withdraw" Cunning Strike feature "move half your speed without triggering opportunity attacks." Speedy makes that feature better because it increases your total speed, thus your half speed is more.
Now we just need a finesse polearm, so we can PAM sneak attack withdraw. Or the hoopak needs a or 2 weapon mastery properties. 😮😂😊😅
My favorite part of the new Rogue is that a level 4 Human Scout can have proficiency in all skills if they take Skilled for each feat choice. You may be a bit behind in combat, but just the fact that you can do that is just the vibes I like about this game
John Wick is an assassin in universe, but i think in D&D terms, he's definitely more of a fighter
Could be multi-classed perhaps? xD
@@DNorseMan95Agreed for most pop culture characters. People try so so hard to put them in just one box. Usually they are multiclassed.
John Wick is an lvl 60 multiclass of Rouge, Fighter and Barbarian.
Rouge Assassin, Fighter Gunslinger, Barbarian Zealot.😂
John wick is a monk, change my mind 🤓
@@LeonLJconsidering he doesn't use monk weapons, I think it's fairly impossible for him to be a monk.
I still can’t believe WotC took Disarm away from Cunning Strike! I understand it didn’t come up much but when it did it was RAD. And who was I hurting? It’s not like they gave us a new option to replace it.
I feel like the advantage with stealth from skulker is massive overkill for a rogue, taking in you already have expertise in stealth and reliable talent.
Yeah, if the plan is to put it in the build then you should probably put your expertise somewhere other than Stealth
if it was old reliable talent I'd disagree but you get it so early now you'll probably get it before any magic items that'd give advantage, tho I will say most rogues would immediately take the loot if it gave advantage on stealth
I don't know, never failing a Stealth check and being brutally difficult to find is pretty fun.
Keep in mind the minimum DC to hide is 15. This means it's reasonably easy to fail at lower levels and waste your bonus action.
@@AwesomeWookiee People also need to remember that Stealth in dnd isn't disappearing from existence like in mmos, the enemies don't suddenly forget you are there. In most cases you need something to hide behind, and in lot of battle maps, it wont to be too difficult for any monster with even average Intelligence to realize your most likely hiding behind that one rock big enough to hide behind in the vicinity of where you were last seen taking a shot, so all they need to do is walk over there and around the rock to direct line of sight of you, and they will automatically see you, even if you rolled 30 on your Stealth check.
With expertise, I typically end up using one or two to boost those skills that I want to be a core part of my character, but their underlying ability score is low. Add expertise, and suddenly they're right up there on par with every other proficient skill. Sometimes this is a lot more important to character concept than being obscenely good in yet another Dexterity skill.
I always grab Expertise in Stealth but, only because my Rogues don’t fail those checks…it’s thematic and fulfill my party role.
We play with a pretty big group of 5 PC’s so, I always tend to get my second Expertise in whatever the others don’t really have or want…I just bake it in to the fluff of my character.
Stealth is a “must” though since it’s my favorite play style AND my friends count on me to play that role.
I've been playing a Wood Elf Rogue for almost 3 years now. He is the most anti-Rogue Rogue ever. One of his vices is that he is too trusting when he shouldn't be. He is too honest with people that maybe he shouldn't be spilling secrets to. He spent over 15 years as a detective, 25 years as a scout in the military, and 10 years as a Nick Valentine-esque Private Investigator. It started from a place of me really enjoying Rogues mechanically, but really not enjoying all the typical backstory/background tropes. My favorite character I've ever played by far.🙂
@@groovydude4511 I love that. So much more fun than min/maxing a typical human rogue. We all have to make sure we continue to work “flaws” into our characters, even if the 2024 character sheet got rid of that. It’s such a good and easy way to add interest and fun to your character.
Oh been waiting for this breakdown, given I'm playing a rogue in Drakkenheim right now!
For the chart, I think it would make it a bit clearer to have the "do you have advantage" yes arrow to go to "do you have disadvantage" as one could have a source of advantage and disadvantage and thus not be able to sneak attack.
I have played a rogue who didn't even have proficiency in stealth, he was this loud and boisterous guy who loved making grand entrances, this was a grim hollow character using a flintlock pistol as his weapon of choice, which was also really loud.
This sounds very fun
It made me laugh so I gave it my seal approval!
I like theses kind of style play. ☺
Str-based rogues are going to have a harder time using Cunning Strikes (Dex-based). Other than that, it's an amazing upgrade.
Since when was that even a thing??? They've never made a way for Rogues to use DEX, from what I remember....
@@TheGloryXros Rogues' Sneak Attack works with Ranged Weapons or Weapons with the Finesse Property. While they all use DEX, Finesse can use either STR or DEX.
With Cunning Strike, it dissuades STR-based build solely because it's keyed off of, DEX.
@TheGloryXros there is no such build for a Rogue that favors strength without homebrew or multiclassing.
Easy. Multiclas him with barb. ❤
@@TigerW0lf Grappling uses strength, with the grappler feat you get advantage on all of your attacks (auto sneak attack). Just to give an idea that doesn't require homebrew or multiclassing. As for a STR multiclass build that is great for rogue, barbarian has almost only features that are good for a rogue {rage = taking even less damage and dealing more damage, danger sense is great for your evasion feature, reckless attack is garanteed sneak attack since you generate your own advantage and extra attack and most can be gained with only minor multiclassing} or paladin for sneak smites, which probably works best on an arcane trickster and we can have fun with a whip for a change. (since whips have such a small damage die, but they are the only 1-handed finesse weapon with reach and both paladin and rogue don't depend on the dice size of their weapon die to deal damage to an enemy. besides zoro seems to me like he could be a paladin/rogue, okay for mechanical reasons I prefer wielding a scimitar and whip rather than a rapier and a whip which would have been more Zoro accurate, but a scimitar is more swish-swish that is so iconic rather than just poke-poke)
Scribe background for the journalist investigator.
Sage for the archeologist professor. (get true strike)
True strike is worthless unless you max out intelligence.
@@backcountry164
Well that is a strategy. You can easily have a good int/cha or whatever and decent Dexterity.
For me the thing rogues do that defines them is cunning action. With free strikes making movement so restrictive, rogues can actually still move around and do things.
I'm surprised y'all didn't use Cpt. Jack Sparrow as an example for a type of Rogue.
Great vid as always Dudes, looking forward to the next class breakdown
6:12 also means Rogues get proficiency in pistols as they are a martial weapon with the light property. Finally, I can play a swashbuckler pirate without having to get a feat.
who’s gonna tell them that Speedy no longer makes it so you don’t provoke opp attacks😔
Second comment, don't be mad!
Chris (Treantmonk) is coming up on 100000 subscribers! I'd love to see a D&D UA-cam community celebration similar to how Kraken Week turned out. Let's get Chris, Colby, you guys, and anyone else you can pull in (DC20 and Insight Check?) Do a series to celebrate Chris. I first became aware of Treantmonk's Temple years ago with his "God wizard" article and that got me into the idea of builds and optimization. Perhaps we get a bunch of creators to do a [minimal damage but maximum impact] build, or everyone brings a Barbarian (world tree) 6/Monk Y. I love this community and your friendship and collaboration! Can't wait to see what comes!
I want to play a Goliath Rogue just for the irony of someone that tall being incredibly stealthy.
"When'd we get the statue?"
"What statue?"
"That big one right... huh. Coulda sworn I saw a statue there. I'm seeing things."
I’ve always enjoyed Bugbears as they are unique among goblinkind for being big but almost supernaturally stealthy for their size.
@@MordalonSasquatchian Swashbuckler, Shinobi Bogeyman, James Bond Bonobo.
Centaur Rouge is hilarious
@@Rickytonaify “Hey does that horse look weird to you?” “That’s just a normal horse.”
Thanks for this great deep-dive into 2024 D&D, guys. Honestly, I’m so sick of all of the “I hate wizards of the coast” content on UA-cam out there. I get it, and I’m not a content publisher, so maybe I would feel differently if I was, but I honestly just don’t care about the corporate politics. It’s a business, and where there is money to be made there will always be corporate drama. I just like playing this game. And I’m excited about trying out the new rules and the new character options. Maybe you don’t love what WotC is doing either, but it seems like you can also distance yourselves from that and just enjoy playing the game that we all love. Looking forward to more of your class overviews and subclass rankings! Thank you!
Well said!
The problem is that WotC’s actions hurt the game. D&D is great because of its community. WotC has not been very consistently friendly to that community lately.
WotC has also not been very kind to its workers, which of course also impacts the game.
Finally, I think we should care about how the things we buy are made, especially for things that are non-essential, like games. We live in a (bad) economic system where you vote with your wallet, that implicates us in our purchases. I don’t want to give money to a company that is exploiting its workers. I’m not talking about WotC here, I just mean generally, I think we should all care about what we buy.
@@qwertyuiopaaaaaaa7 Thanks for your measured and fair response. You are not wrong, and it’s definitely something to consider. I appreciate the reply.
In regards to the sneak attack flowchart, I would add one thing (though this may have changed from the 2014 rules): if you are an Inquisitive Rogue, is your Insightful Fighting ability active, and if so, do you NOT have Disadvantage on the attack roll? If all those conditions are met, you also get to use Sneak Attack on this roll if you hit.
Note: I was often isolated from the party during my first campaign, and this ability allowed me to do some serious damage while trying to kite the attackers towards the party tank.
Ive been playing a harengon pirate swashbuckler drunken master multiclass with a +15 to initiative. Free disengages are so great as i can move in, attack twice, bonus double punch, and back away with no attacks of opportunity coming at me. Love it
We need an updated video on multiclass with rogue.
it's worth pointing out that if you end up playing as a thief rogue you're definitely gonna wanna pick up arcana expertise at some point, even if you have -1 int by level 13 when you get the ability to use any spell scroll your proficiency is +5 which means your overall modifier will be +9 and your minimum roll will be 19 so you can cast any spell from a scroll automatically
I wouldn't discount using True Strike as an Assassin Rogue. So having a high mental stat (say Int and getting the spell via Magic Initiate by going human) allows it to replace the attack and damage rolls, as well as upgrade in damage. Unleash that as your opening strike as an Assassin, and enjoy some mega damage.
I spent ALL DAY yesterday updating my level 5 Rogue and tried to piece together bits of info from your other videos + the new PHB. I could have just waited 10 hours for this video 😭 picking the spells I wanted for my AT Rogue was the hardest part. thanks for the video!
Also I think the link for the flow chart is missing from the video description
i like t get my wisdom HIGH! being Savvy and all that, perception/'insight etc, and jsut getting to a `2 in charisma isnt bad when the proficiency bonus and Reliable Talent kicmk in, im still VERY charismatic :D
Another really good feat for melee rogue is Sentinel! It can help stop enemies from running past you to the backline and if the enemy attacks your buddy next to you that you're proccing sneak attack off of, you get an OOO, which is allow for more sneak attack damage (reminder, sneak attack is once per turn, not once per round).
A good feat for a Soulknife Rogue is Shadow-Touched. It gives you not only access to the Invisibility spell, but also Wrathful Smite, which is a necromancy spell, for extra damage.
6:14 don't forget the whip, it's reach can be really useful for a Rogue
One thing to note iirc is if an attack has both advantage and disadvantage you don’t get Sneak Attack. Fairly rare but does come up.
Truestrike rogue int wis or chr main is the best damage for ranged combat
Go thief, take a wizard 1 dip, craft true strike scrolls, and double it.
I think the forest gnome with its minor illusion cantrip is an excellent choice and the rock gnome with prestidigitation to create distractions and to shut down lights. :-)
I feel like an Indiana Jones style rogue would invest in Int.
Take true strike as a high elf, with the magic initiate feat, or as an arcane trickster, and you can build int as a primary stat.
I'm on the train and didn't know what to watch anymore, the timing on this is sooooooo nice thank you ddudes ❤
Early part of the vid so far:
I always liked Rogue to be made the assassin/ninja builds but also, always loved the idea of shadow monk/trickery cleric for the additional fantady version and i wanna see how you guys tackle to monk after this.
My favorite Rogue build in 2017 5e was 10 rogue and 10 Whispers bard. I sacrificed none of the damage due to the whisper bard's psychic blades, and I had up to 5th level spell slots.
What rogue subclass? Arcane trickster?
@@woutvanostaden1299 i personally chose soul knife so i could always have an open hand for my instrument, and if gave my class a psychic theme around it, but it could work with most any subclass
i love cunning strike, tho i do wish they had bumped the sneak attack dice by 1 or 2 to make up for the damage youre giving up, but then people would just go all in for damage so idk i think its pretty good
As an engineer I cannot overstate how much I enjoyed the flow chart
Fav class, one of a few where I would consider not multiclassing. For ATs, get Telekinetic AFTER going AT so you double the Hand range & can shove for fun.
But not for my Next Rogue Character: Tabaxi trickster / Shadow Monk 6 for teleportation. Will homebrew/lie so I get the 2014 Shadow spell list.
Good news, the feat just doubles Mage Hand's distance limit now, without the old caveat.
I'm gonna reinforce that last tip about roleplaying: don't explain the noodle incident. If you want your character to have a big fear or won't take jobs involving a random animal, don't explain it to the other players, in or out of character. It's more fun for them to make their little theories about what it is than to actually learn what the incident was.
It's better to eventually find out, surely
@@apjapki it depends on how the other players react. If they _aren't_ doing a bunch of whispers in the background and their characters don't bring it up on occasion "hey so what's the deal with snakes?" then there _isn't much to lose_ by explaining it at some point.
But noodle incidents (I misremembered the trope name at first) are a long standing trope in fiction, and it's widely accepted that it's more fun for the fans to have all their different wacky theories than for the writer to show the canon explanation.
Now, a D&D table is usually 3-8 people and not thousands of thousands, so there isn't going to be the same scale of fan theories. But if your friends are engaging with the mystery, keeping inconsequential parts of your backstory a secret is usually more fun. (Don't keep _major_ secrets that affect the game without discussing that out of character.) Also, never explaining the noodle incident means that you don't have to come up with the reason, just the outcome. Twice the fun with half the work.
(If you want a video recommendation, Overly Sarcastic Productions made a "Trope Talk" about noodle incidents.)
@@josephschubert6561 I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm in a room with four guys. If I start saying my character cries when tomato is added to salad, they aren't going to theorycraft. They are going to say, "quit being a weirdo, we have sh*t to do".
I get it to an extent but it depends on the vibe in your group and how sandboxy your game is. I put loads of quirks on my characters and it never comes up unless it's plot relevant. We all have mystery back stories, none of us are main characters and the plots we are unfolding are already complex enough.
Stuff you actually do in the sessions as a result of the gameplay means waaaay more than backstory anyway for developing quirks and emblematic behaviour.
@@josephschubert6561 I will say that I think doing everything you said is great advice for DMs though, regardless of game type.
@@apjapkiI think that for those who play for a youtube audience his advice still does apply. Like critical role, high rolers, oxventure etc.
I feel like it's really unfortunate that the Soulknife knife has to be supplemented by an actual dagger since you'd want the Nick property on a second weapon for the extra attack built into your attack. I guess it's nice that you don't need to take dual-wielder to get the bonus action attack though.
I really like the Sentinel feat for skirmisher rogue too
Why not mention that a spell scroll saving theif at lvl 17 can get 4 spells off in a round? They can use the magic action as a ba, and the new rulings mean you can cast multiple spells as long as only one spell slot is used. Imagine a thief wielding a staff of magi, a staff of power, maybe a legendary artifact, and tons of spell scrolls and they just go to town against anything in their way. Though you would need to dip into a magical class to wield staffs and wands
You lads make your videos very entertaining. I love watching them even when I'm not building anything lol
Now you can disengage on your cunning action it feels like Rogues probably need to be using the bonus action to deal damage rather than disengage.
loving the flow chart!
Fast forward to 11:27 in video to see
Oops! Careful. The Speedy feat (formerly known as Mobile) no longer prevents opportunity attacks from anyone you've melee-attacked. Instead, it gives disadvantage on all opportunity attacks against you.
Arcane trickster with borrowed knowledge and enhance ability is really nasty with reliable talent. Proficiency and advantage on any skill you need for an hour and the worse you can roll is a 10 is kinda bonkers.
Always love to run my rogue as a wild west sheriff.
As the dragonborn fan I am, Chromatic Green dragonborn Assassin Rogue * drools * poison WILL be absolutely nasty! And I will drag in and convert the Gem dragonborns from Fizbans Treasury of Dragons too! Gem dragonborn for Soulknife and other classes sub-classes like : Psi Warrior, Aberrent Mind is just... CHEFS kiss and not only thematically. And yeah halflings for Thief Rogues for sure! Gnomes for Arcane Trickster too!
0:25 Monty coming in hot
Considering 2 of the 4 2024 subclasses for rogues use INT for saving throws, its seems rather strange that none of your suggested builds recommend it as the 2nd, or even 3rd, skill... it is especially interesting that 2 of the 3 builds lean towards CHA when the Swashbuckler isn't one of the 2024 PHB subclasses, though I do understand CHA based skills may play a larger part in campaigns than INT based ones. Perhaps it is more for really embracing the sauve rogue
I think its funny how the rogue's strength is not in pure combat but in skill checks is just now being brought up in conversations.
I've been watching Drakkenheim for a long time now and notice just how many skill checks Wilhelm passed that could of had a different outcomes in the situations where he didn't.
That being said, I do want to point out that expertise can make you super efficient in one skill, it can also shore up a lesser skill that you might still want.
For example: A rogue might really like to jump on things for vantage points and not have a climb speed but if they want to jump they'll need to roll well on athletics. However, even if you were to have a 10 in strength, expertise in athletics will still give you a +4 at levels 1-4 and a +6 at 5-8 and so on.
Might not be as good as having +23 to stealth but with reliable talent, you can still make a +18 in Athletics at that level.
Of course, this applies to any skill you might want as well like deception, arcana, etc etc.
Another unique rogue backstory idea comes from someone in my playgroup who did a CHA focused Arcane Trickster based on MCU Loki. Their social skills came from being around high society, their knowledge skills from was his privileged upbringing, and his physical skills came from learning how to slip away from the guards to pull pranks on people.
I backed the Pluto Jackson kickstarter primarily because of the D&D beyond integration. Do you guys know if Grim Hollow will have that as well?
I do like these class reviews. In the future, what are the chances of an alternate class review and ranking? In a party without a rogue, which classes can best fill the role? For example, my party just lost our assassin rogue, and the player brought in an Oathbreaker as a replacement. Then the rest of the table looked to my artificer to find traps and open locks. Given that the Dudes players tend to avoid clerics in liveplay, that got me wondering.
Pretty much always my favorite class in every single RPG game ever. Maybe it's because I always enjoyed solo play and rogues are excellent for that purpose... not because I relate to being a thief or assassin who lacks morals and common sense! I promise 😏😅🤷♂
Dual-wielding Rogues with a tendency towards magic may consider using a club as one of their weapons, as it can be buffed with Shillelagh in addition to True Strike.
Sadly you can never Sneak Attack with a club though. One of the best things about dual wield is double chance to Sneak Attack.
@@apjapki That is true.
rogue with an elemental warrior dip and a whip (as well as the grappler feat) is hilarious. Since we can grapple them from a distance with an unarmed strike an then gain advantage on all attacks that we make that turn by chucking a dagger at them for nick and whip em good. This would definitely be a combo I would pursue if I ever get to play in a gestalt campaign. 🤣😁😁😆
Loved your video, very helpful! I am a relatively new DM and I have a question on sneak attack.
In your flow chart, you have "Is at least one of your allies within 5ft of the target?". In game, I take that as your ally is occupying the attention of your enemy to allow the sneak attack to occur. But if the ally had a reach weapon does this increase that factor to 10ft? I was curious to get your thoughts.
RAW I think it's probably only within 5 ft.
RAW I think it's probably only within 5 ft.
Correction for Speedy in 2024. Opportunity Attacks are at Disadvantage. So no requirement to attack a creature, but not as effective as Disengage is.
26:00 I don't like paying double with point buy except for Dex. Especially the "skill expert" and especially if there's no Int based character in the party.
Kelly
What is a Care Bear slang?
"A player who is not a griefer; one who dislikes, or tries to prevent, trouble in the game world"
sounds like Kelly to me 💗
Sneak attack got nerfed. Qualifier used to be “if another enemy of the target…” now it’s specifically your ally.
Rogues get whips now! Dual Wielder feat got nerfed to not let you ignore light property. Sad. But, steady aim with a whip is juicy to stay out of melee range from most foes.
7:56 When Monty said,”What would you recommend?”
Of course an ad appeared right there. 😂
Dungeon Dudes: A Rogue doesn’t need strength.
Harrison Ford: Never tell me the scores.
~_~
I was kind of disappointed I was hoping that you'd take the opportunity in this video to discuss the poisoner feet and how it works in conjunction with the assassins ability.
So Rogues can now easily get proficiency in 5 saving throws if they take resilient. Pretty impressive
I have a really hard time playing any character that doesn't have a bunch of high-stat skills, so rogues and bards are right up my alley
I made an Owlin rouge that was based on a blend of Michael Westen from Burn Notice, and Nightwing.
I feel like the stats layout was pretty similar and doesn't necessarily play into all the possibilities.
Very professional format for this guide video, Dudes. Well done!
Perfect example of lone wolf who gains a family over time: Batman and the Bat Family.
I really like the idea of a thug fighter with a scoundrel background. Then they yell sneak attack with every great sword swing.
Yes. Yelling sneak attack when you strike is the best way to sneak attack. No one ever expects such stupidity. That's why it works 😂🤣🤷🏻♂️
Plz put the sneak attack flow chart download in the description (:
Sherlock Holmes and MacGyver are also rogues, I'd argue.
Always love these. Sorcerer next please?
I think they do the classic archetypes of cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard first and then go alphabetically. Unless they're doing it out of order, which I'm pretty sure they aren't
Monty’s pronunciation always cracks me up
I seem to have failed my perception check because I'm having some trouble finding the download link mentioned at 12:25.
Quick question: What is a Hypnotic "Pata-rin"? 😆
A Thief/Warlock using Eldritch Blast normally and on a scroll can cast EB twice on his turn if he still has EB on a scroll. But then I ask myself, if I am a Thief why would I be using that kind of build?
Does anyone have the download link for the flow chart?
thanks for the video! Am I not finding it but I don't see the flowchart
Think you guys are missing a “True Strike Build”
Max either Int or Cha one Level in fighter for medium armor and the Archery fighting style 14 Dex and Shoot Away.
I think this is a sleeper build, but will turn out to be one of the very best options.
You mean the build treantmonk just put out a video about? I get it but lots of rogues won’t wanna deal with magic at all due to desired fantasy. I’m already exhausted hearing about how every build should use magic initiate back ground feat and take true strike.
The sniper is best off maxing out int and picking up True Strike with their 1st level fighter dip...
I feel like the Thief rogue is being slept on. Using the magic action for items as a bonus action is huge. A reasonable Int, expertise in Arcana and reliable talent will allow succeeding in the d20 test to cast high-level scrolls seem like easy mode.
Essentially, you gain the ability to quicken cast spell scrolls.
It's great.... if you can get spell scrolls. Not every table gives them out as loot or gives you downtime to craft.
Thief is a definition B tier subclass. It's meh, maybe C tier when you don't get the items or time. Can easily be S tier if your table does do that, but there is no way to assume that
John Wick is a Gunk. (RIP Gunk builds)
Id add the conditions of are you a swashbuckler and are you within 5ft of an enemy to the flow chart myself
I allways wanted to play Thief with compulsive urge to take things from anyone ... but my DM was against it, fearing some bad blood in our group.
And so we created a solution together:
Any time, any of the 'other players' want, they may state that they cant find some things in their posessions ... and acuse my Rogue of stealing.
And then, it depended on me ... either i admit that i stole it, and we roleplay futher (usualy i simply returned the item with some lame excuse that they forgot it somewhere and i totally meaned to give it back the whole time, i just ... got distracted meanwhile) ... or i deny that, showing them that my Rogue dont actually have the item, and they "find out" they put it elsewhere and i was indeed inocent. (We agreed that my character would never lie about this to his party.)
We had a lots of fun, my Rogue was stealing even from their own party, and no player ever got angry about it. ^_^
Feel free to adopt. ;)
I absolutely love these changes
A new sneak attack flow chart!!
FINALLY MY FAVORITE CLASS
Geralt from Reva?!😂😂😅
Awesome video as always
Arcane Trickster is good everywhere right? Great utility spells, Green Flame/Booming/Shadow Blade (XGtE) and True Strike for melee, True Strike for range.
(Greater) Invisibility, Sleep theft or assassination, Detect Thoughts, Blindness/Deafness, Shield, Mirror Image, Blur, Fire Shield!, Knock/Arcane Lock, Snare (XGtE), Disguise/Alter Self, Hold person, Levitate, Locate object, Misty step, Web, Darkness, Silent Image, Minor/Major Illusion, Illusory Script, rituals Detect magic, Identify, Alarm, Comp. languages, Find Familiar, Hypnotic pattern, Glyph of warding, Nondetection, Arcane Eye.
Oh my goodness, there are not enough spell slots and known to cast all these x'P
Since ATs now apparently have access to all Wiz spells, go for Flame Stride (3rd Lv.) too. Speed increase, prevents opportunity attacks. Dash, set things on fire, continue with Roguey shenanigans!
Charm Person!
@@Reepicheep-1I love the idea of using flame stride to free up the bonus action and give the fire part to exstinguish for the pyrotechnics spell: smokescreen option and add blink and bonus action hide in the smoke, due to skulker providing 10 ft blindsight it becomes like playing whack-a-mole. Is he here, no d*mn it, is he here, no d*mn it, is he, well you get the idea. And we can still cast counter spell when we dissapear.
The way my DM did thieves cant was that it was sign language.
Why would you ever use shortbow with a rogue over light crossbow? You never get extra attack making light crossbow just strictly better. Also Vex is pretty much pointless for a ranged weapon rogue since you can always get advantage with aim anyways.
The aim feature means you can't move, and that can be a problem.
Steady Aim locks you down from moving and eats your Bonus action. A lot of what keeps Rogue alive is how evasive they are on the battlefield. So Steady Aim takes that evasiveness away.
Unless you are an Assassin Rogue who just ignores that speed loss.
@@nealenthenerd399I love the idea of hiding (using cunning action hide) in a smoke screen or similar spell while having 10 ft of blind sight. It's just that setting this up and being a lvl 13 thief is hard since ideally I would like to also have the blink spell. 😅😊
swedish chef soulknife with 1lvl fighter. bork bork bork throw your dagger. and coock with weapon. that my my current build. nothing beat muppet autognome
(So far) It seems 5e.2024 (I have not gotten my PHB copy yet) is just an amalgamation of the previous supplement guides. Tasha's, Xanathars, Volo's, etc. The mechanics of the game itself haven't really changed, just the means and tools, through the buildable PCs have, in which players and DMs play the exact same game. So, it really seems 5e.2024 is just the official D&D creators homebrew version of 5e.2014, they modified and want us to adopt. We already play our homebrew versions from the PHB 2014 and all the supplement guides... why do we need their 5e.2024?! What... what am I missing?
They have hours of video explaining exactly what you're missing. And if it's official, it's not "homebrew".
@@ahorseofcourse7283 No... you may want to edit that for a 3rd time. My point isn't a variable of understanding the word "Homebrew", it's asking what's the point of buying the 5e.2024 PHB, when it's almost exclusively just an amalgamation of supplementary guides, (Tasha's, Xanathar's Volo's, etc.) added onto the 2014 PHB. I've watched the DD for years and seen all their videos... their previous videos on 5e.2024 do nothing to address my point, and in fact, help to corroborate it. But thanks for responding.
@MarkLewis... it sounds like it just isn't for you. There is nothing wrong with that. I personally find the value in the work they did to help out martial characters. Also, how much better organized this book is.
@@Small_Panda Still no. I'm trying to see if it's for me and my group, but I just don't get the point of buying a new book, when it's just (again) an amalgamation of the books we already have? Is the new price tag justified to have all the books we already have, in a book we may not need. I'm not against 5e.2024, I just don't see a need to spend 100% more money on it, if it's only 5% new information.