@@DungeonDudes so much house rules going to have to be implemented for my campaign especially for rouges the other classes isn't to bad mostly house rules for just general rules that were changed, except for ranger class
I just want to take a moment and appreciate all of the middle names that Kelly and Monty have. I really like the joke and appreciate that it's a little touch that they've used for at least 6 years now as far as I know
I'm pretty sure it was stated during the playtest that the goal wasn't to make the rogue a better DPS but better at debuffing. It's worth noting that Cunning Strikes are essentially battle master maneuvers that aren't tied to a limited resource other than figuring out how to trigger sneak attack which is far easier now than it has ever been. Keep in mind too that the options you're going to be using most often are those initial 3 which all have a cost of 1d6; yeah that's expensive when they first comes online but they're pretty potent abilities and as your rogue's pool of sneak attack die grows they're going to feel cheaper and cheaper cost wise. If the damage drop really bugs you, an small homebrew suggestion I saw elsewhere was to have the rogue remove the SA die after rolling instead of before and then pick which die they drop. Don't think you'll struggle to convince most any DM to agree to that. I do agree though that this feature needed a bit more work. Would have been nice to have a way to divorce these effects from SA and instead gain bonuses to them when you do choose to drop the damage die for SA. Even a few free uses per day or negating the lower cost cunning strike option when you unlock the ability to use two per round would have been some nice QOL features. Hell, boosting the number of SA die would have been amazing as well.
Honestly the hand brew I have in my mind is that you gain 1 cunning strike point equal to your Proficiency bonus they reset on a short rest. You can trade these points instead of using your sneak attack dice. They are worth the same value as 1 sneak attack dice for the cost for a cunning strike. Allowing you to do both.
I think cunning strikes are more like additional weapon masteries (that you can stack with actual weapon masteries). Although since plenty of classes get weapon masteries they can sort of do similar effects (for example anyone with a topple weapon can knock people down on attacks like the rogue's trip). Devious Strikes have some very good effects, but you only get them at level 14 and most campaigns I play usually end by that level. That said, the base rogue is definitely better than what it was before so no complaints there. I was really disappointed with the assassin changes, it was already unpopular and it feels like they made it even weaker.
I think that the homebrew of picking which die to discard after rolling them is great. New players often only care about damage so they won't probably use cunning strike much because it lowers their beloved damage, however, if they roll a 1 on their SA die they could be tempted to use their cunning strike. Once they see how good debuffing is they could start using more often, even if they have to sacrifice dice that are not natural 1.
I think cunning strikes is great and I don't really have a problem with them using the sneak attack dice. The problem was rogue wasn't really keeping up using the 2014 rules and now they are losing even more damage when using CS, I think scale from d6 to d8 level 11 and to d10 level 17 would have helped.
@RoninXDarknight I like that homebrew rule for Cunning strikes, but I'm curious if the Rogue player is required to call the strike before or after the roll. I can see the argument for both: you roll 4d6 and you get a 2 1s, that's disappointing, so you go ahead and turn in one of those 1's into a poison strike, but on the flip side, it'd be REALLY disappointing to call the Knock Out, then roll 8d6 and miraculously get a Yahtzee in 6's.
I've seen commenters complaining that the rogue is giving up DPS for extra utility. I can kind of understand where they're coming from, but I also never considered rogues to be a DPS class. Yes they have sneak attack, but they're mostly a utility and support class.
@@benross9174 Bard is another really good support class. Although they don't have cunning action, or reliable talent. I haven't done a lot of looking into comparisons, and part of it does depend on whether you prefer full casters, or martials. I remember the time I played a bard, and loved hypnotic pattern. It drove the DM crazy. We faced down several enemies in the street of a town, that wanted us out of the way. I cast this one spell, and most of them fail. The ones that don't get picked off first, and the rest of the encounter is just cleanup.
@@Psuedo-Nim not saying a nerf would be a bad idea. Removing them entirely is a bad idea though; its a fun class. Although maybe not in some super serious campaigns but thats up to the DM
The fact that A) they brought back Ambush feats from _Complete Scoundrel_ (nostalgia is probably why I'm not too fussed about the damage penalty), and B) appear to have taken the lessons of Tasha to heart, make me really excited for Rogues! Also, that mental image of a dual-wielding Assassin using Steady Aim while they move is just the most wonderfully anime thing I've heard in a while.
I don't mind so much the cunning strike feature giving up damage for utility if that's the kind of rogue you'd want. One on one fights with a rogue could be scary if they can constantly knock you unconscious for an easy auto crit at higher levels
I agree, I like the concept. I think they could have offset the penalty a bit by adding an extra Sneak Attack die at lv5 though. Other martials are getting extra attack at this LV, so I don't think it would be terrible balance
@@AL12rs I think of the rogue like a martial bard. With the reliable talent jumping and the bonuses they get with hiding. Rogues are going to be kind of what monk damage was, with a lot more utility like poisoning an enemy or the unconscious one that to me is concentration free hypnotic pattern but it last longer
I think it makes sense that the rogue is not the highest damage dealer, but is the most skilled and versatile, capable of navigating situations, helping the party get out of sticky situations in and out of combat. It's a different utility than the bard. Also there's so many ways to get advantage now, that the rogue will be sneak attacking all the time!
The problem rogues run into is that actually they aren't particularly versatile at least not compared to any caster. The irony of the rogue is that as a martial they are forced to be honest. Rogues would really benefit from skill having more actual mechanics that allow them to proactively do things.
@@verdurite Casters are in the game so they need to be considered. When your class is supposed to about versatility the fact that half the classes make you irrelevant with one feature is kind of a problem especially when one of those classes has all but 1 of your skill features as well.
@@jellewijckmans4836okay so let’s ignore spells and see if that makes rogue better. A party with a cleric, paladin, ranger, and rogue with NO SPELLS still makes the rogue kind of useless. Ranger has DEX covered, cleric has wisdom, paladin usually has charisma, and the sheer higher stats is equal if not better then just proficiency added to a +0. Maybe at higher level when the rogue gets expertise but now you are pointless out of combat and not that good in combat. This has no spells taken into account and if a bard shows up it’s worse since they are charisma based so even without spells a charisma DEX bard is basically just a rogue without sneak attack. What’s left? The issue isn’t magic it’s that skill monkey builds are not that good. Just play a fighter and take the skilled feat, have someone there with guidance and bam, I just replaced a rogue.
While Lucky has been nerfed pretty hard in the update, Rogues seem to be the only ones that can at least somewhat treat it as a buff which is pretty nice
having your entire class depend on a single hit per round makes lucky nearly mandatory to have. at least most other classes can do their 2nd attack with their main weapon.
I'm actually really excited for these changes. Like yeah sure the raw damage output of the rogue is lessened but that's more in line with the extra focus on skills. Rather than worrying about rogue's raw single target damage being lessened, I'm seeing it as a change in the intended play style from damage blitz to utility closer in line to the bard
@@captainnyan-nyan2005 I mean not really. Rogue gets extra utility now thanks to reliable talent coming earlier and has combat utility in the form of the new sneak attack mechanic. Different niches but similar roles
@@Ghostking5904 then tell me. Why do you think people were trying to get sneak attack as often in a reaction if that's not the case of them being less utility than the DAMN BARD.
@@captainnyan-nyan2005 Bro if you think the only way you can have utility is by casting spells there's a couple classes I'm gonna need to break some news about
Regarding Cunning Strike removing dices, I think that is fine, feels very roughish, but I would have offset this by increasing the number of SA dices by one at level 5 and perhaps another one at later levels, when the extra options get added. This way it doesn't feel as bad and it wuld help keeping up with multi attack classes
I think the main thing about expending sneak attack dice to use your cool new abilities is that no one is putting a gun to your head and saying you have to use it. If you think the most important thing is damage, you can just use sneak attack without changing how it works at all. But now you also have stuff you can do besides just kill somebody. Because the important thing about Rogues is that they're all about setup. Outside of combat they're all utility all day, which is what Cunning Strike is meant to be, just for combat. You can set up your martial allies really easily, applying debuffs and increasing the chances of the whole team working as a whole. And all that plus the ability to deal all that damage as they have for years is just *chef's kiss* excellent
It's funny to see people complaining this much. "Now I'll have to have my DPS lessened".. but you won't. There will be situations, where going pure DPS and damaging as much as you can is a viable strategy, and ones where using new tools you have at the cost of some damage will help you to change the tide of the battle. What's even funnier, other classes are exactly like that - wizards are all utility, but once in a while inflicting as much damage as possible is all they need. Except rogues don't need any resources for that
In a group of unoptimized players the rogue becomes the damage carry. I think the rogue is in a really comfortable spot, the damage is good, maybe not great, but the skills and versatility makes up for it
I think they could have just given Rogue Extra Attack..that would have given them an additional opportunity to make sure that Sneak Attack hits and balance the fact that their damage is gonna be a bit lower due to Cunning Strike
@@JJV7243 Another idea to buff the rouge is just strait up giving them a +2 for each sneak attack dice they have in the attack. That way trading for cunning strike is simpler. Since the cost is 1d6. You can't get rid of a 1d2 for cost.
Rogue with extra attack seems too much and it confuses new players that they can't double sneak attack. Maybe a high level subclass feature for the Swashbuckler though?
@@apjapki swashbuckler rouge was only in the play test. It got replace for soulknife rouge. So sadly until we get another book no new swashbuckler features unless your dm allows to home brew. Honestly in the play test they cooked with them. While with the soulknife they just left in the fridge. Also at level 17 they had the feature that you wanted the swashbuckler to have the other extra attack.
Weapon master Vex. When you hit a creature and deal damage, this mastery property gives you Advantage on your next attack roll before the end of your next turn. Meaning you have advantage in the future. The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. This means you make 2 attack rolls with one attack. One roll with one weapon + another attack with your second weapon as long they are both are light weapons.
There are many content creators who have covered weapon masteries (d4, Treantmonk, and Pack Tactics - to name a few) and DND Beyond Published the weapon masteries properties in a post on the website. Any of those places will be able to help you out!
The Dual Wielder feat specifies that the two weapons are (1) 'a weapon that has the Light property' and (2) 'a melee weapon that lacks the Two Handed property'. So I don't see where it prevents you from dual wielding a dagger/rapier or a hand crossbow/rapier?
The weapon mastery properties doesn't reward redundancy. I can have 2 rapiers yes but they would both have the same vex. But if you have a rapier and a short sword then you would have vex and Nick.
The Nick property of Daggers only lets you make an extra attack with a different weapon if that weapon also has the Light property which Rapiers do not. So you technically can Dual Wield them but you wont be able to use the daggers weapon mastery property if you do.
The issue is that the feat doesn't explicitly extend the ability of or remove the restrictions of wielding two weapons, so yes you could fight with a light weapon in your main and and a full weapon in your off hand to make a bonus attack attack (which is weird) but you couldn't also use Nick unless both weapons are light. The whole two weapon fighting rules are completely messed up in the new rules.
@@vortigern7021 It's easy to get confused. Here's how I think of it. Light Property: Anyone who attacks with a Light weapon (e.g., shortsword) can make a bonus action attack with a different Light weapon (e.g., dagger). Weapon Mastery: Anyone with Weapon Mastery for a Light Weapon with the Nick property (e.g., dagger), can make an attack with a Light weapon (e.g., shortsword) and then (as part of the same attack action) make an attack with the Nick weapon (e.g., dagger). This leaves your bonus action available for something else like Cunning Action. Dual Wielder Feat: Anyone with the DW feat can make an attack with a Light weapon (e.g., shortsword) and then make a bonus action attack with a different weapon that doesn't have the two-handed property (e.g., rapier). The issue that everyone is describing is that the Nick weapon mastery and Dual Wielder feats don't work together to fully support a rapier-dagger rogue who wants to keep their bonus action open for Cunning Action. If they attack with the rapier first, the DW feat doesn't work because the rapier isn't Light. If they attack with the dagger first, they can't attack with the rapier as part of the same action because the rapier doesn't have the Nick mastery property.
I'm not sure how/if the text for UMD (13th level Thief) has changed since the playtest, but if it hasn't... so long as you have expertise in Arcana, you can have an 8 Int and cast 9th level scrolls without even needing to roll. Automatic 19 or higher.
I feel like all we need to do to correct this “lack of teeth” for the rogue if change the role, make him a finisher… maybe attack on a bloodied target gets double damage, let him into the dervish role finishing off enemies
This is definitely the class I’m most excited to play in the new book! I like the idea of a “magical detective” character that I could play as an Arcane Trickster with high intelligence and a focus on divination spells. Lifting the restrictions on school of magic really is a huge deal for versatility and flavor.
DANG... cherry on top was spectacularly delislcious... i about died in my kitchen. My son was asking what the dudes were talking about... i simply replied, they dropped an atom bomb to finish the episode... lol you guys are the best.
Damage king for rogue still going to be arcane trickster, especially at high level. Cast haste on self. Use hasted action to sneak attack and cunning strike to knock the enemy unconscious. Then hold a booming blade for the start of the next turn and get sneak attack and booming blade with an auto-crit since the enemy is unconscious.
12:28 was the first thing i did when i saw true strike in the playtest. Intelligence Rogue. It even works on ranged weapons so its even better than booming blade for rogues.
For cunning strikes, I would homebrew that you can give up dice after the roll, and you can pick the dice you want to give up. So if you rolled a 1, you might want to do a cunning action instead of doing that one damage
I commented on a previous video that you weren't being critical enough and this is exactly what we're finally seeing here. I'm glad you're expressing concerns. I'd take it a bit further and say that the changes in other class base features (think rage in social encounters for some reason) take away from other class base strengths. Rogues along with bards are skill monkeys. It's their ability to shine. I wouldn't have an issue if someone made a subclass that leans into other lanes - say a smart barbarian subclass to let players play Conan the Librarian - because those are specialization within a class. It's not like a Barbarian can't be social. They can roll the abilities just the same, they just don't have it as a strength. Same with slight of hand or any other skill. It's a huge problem for 5.5ed.
-Sentinel Feat has been buffed quite a bit to allow for more reliable off turn attacks and sneak attack. -cunning strikes can be used on the off turn sneak attacks. -protection fighting style synergizes even more than it used to for a teammate to work side by side with a melee rogue. taking all these changes into account, I think the rogues damage and survivability actually went up.
Love that these're getting kicked out the door so fast that they're just leaving in stuff they usually cut, like restarting lines and Kelly asking if they should proceed to the outro 🤣
At my table as a homebrew hot fix for the new 24 Rogue would have Cunning Strike still reduce the amount of Sneak attack dice, but allow Sneak attack to increases in power (Example lvl 5 d8, lvl 10 d10 and lvl 15 d12) but amount of dice rolled is the same. Or just add a new source like Monty noted. I like to call my bew resource calls Daring Stamina, point you get are Dex mod + Prof Bonuse per short rest.
Tbh, adding another resource to track sounds so tedious for the Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife. Spell slots, SA dice, Psychic dice, feats, Hit Dice, now another special thing. I think it’s smarter to keep it on SA and buff SA, if you really think it’s underpowered. That being said, I think it’s super well balanced, except for probably the 6d6 option.
I like the more "lite edit" videos as of late. There's just something familiar and comfortable seeing two people I look up to so highly fumble their words just as much as everyone else in the world. It feels more human.
Dropping SA dice for status effects is the same design Pathfinder 1e used for Rogues. While this doesn't seem as costly as it was in PF1, I think a lot of players might still find themselves rarely opting for the tradeoff, because usually the best "status" you can give your opponent is Dead from HP Loss. :)
I think people undervalue the Rogue’s damage with this TBH. Dropping 1d6 from 3d6 can be a lot of damage sure, losing 33% damage, but then giving your Barbarian and Fighter or Fighter and Paladin Allie’s advantage on all of their attacks for a round from knocking someone prone is pretty good. Sure, Poison was commonly resisted in 2014, but that’s not as likely a case in 2024. Not only that but you lose 1d6 of poison to inflict it for potentially multiple rounds and the Assassin specifically can deal even more damage with the poison ability where as long as the first save is a failure they actually lose no damage. At higher levels, yeah again 3d6 sounds like a lot, but being able to just blind an enemy so ALL of your team has advantage and your enemy has disadvantage on every attack is absolutely a huge boon. So it’s easy to just say “Wow, Rogues suck because no big damage.” but yet if that’s how people feel then everyone should hate spells like Fairie Fire, Blindness/Deafness, Darkness, etc etc etc. For 3d6, getting a non-magical blind effect so no CounterSpell, it works through magic immune or resistant creatures, etc is pretty cool and brings much bigger party support than I really think we’re giving credit for.
Trip and Blind cunning/devious strikes sound pretty good. A 5th lv rogue with 18 dex has a 75%-80% chance of tripping a Bulette or a Stone Golem. A 14th lv rogue with 20 dex has a ridiculous 80%-90% of blinding a Storm Giant or an Iron Golem. He/she could also combine both and force 2 saves per hit if the opponent is large or smaller. No resources spent, no actions spent either. As for daze and unconscious? Yeah, those target Con so chances of them working are slimmer, but at 14th lv unconscious is an automatic L and daze is an amazing debuff in a game that's all about action economy. Even if the enemy has legendary resistance, it would be useful because they can't afford not to burn one if they fail.
i always thought of rogues as dps and "one hit wonders", but after your "Final thoughts", I now need another video on how to approach the rogue, in both character creation, combat and roleplay. I have been desperate to play a thief or psi warrior, but i am afraid my characters i have for those (technically backup characters) may not work as i thought they would. the thief might, as he was intended to shy away from lethal attacks when against anything other than monsters (may learn that "monsters" are not so easily detected, etc). i guess i am trying to say i look forward to a revisit of the rogue class in general from you guys. always find your videos encouraging and thought provoking
Coming back to the video, at 7:00, Monty talks about Dual Wielder. But he says it's not possible to do rapier and dagger. I'm a little lost after looking back over the feat as to why that's not possible. Could I get some clarification? I don't see why it doesn't work
@@DungeonDudesPersonally I love it when one of you makes a joke and there is a cut straight after (think in yesterday's vid) as I imagine the other one groaned or lost it.
I played a soulknife with thrown weapon fighting for the damage boost and it felt pretty powerful even if the bonus action attack is one damage dice less. Outside of certain settings, psychic isn't usually resisted and it got around conventional weapon resistance. You'd still need to take a dip in fighter with the new rules if you wanted to get the fighting style. It would have fallen off pretty hard if the campaign had continued past level 5 though.
Double the sneak attack dices and let them sneak more than once per round and you got it resolved. (always need to flank or have advantage to get it tho). So it would be 20d6 at lvl 20! Thanks guys for the vid guys!
As a bit of a tip to improve these videos, when mentioning a spell that has changed, like True Strike, it might be worth explaining the changes briefly for those of us that might’ve missed those changes. Hurts context quite a bit if we don’t know the details.
So I have noticed that the rouge, paladin and barbarian, all had their max damage output reduced, but have more consistent damage. In the case of the Rouge you have vex and nick dual wielding, lucky, steady aim and skulker. Its now even easier to get sneak attack. I feel like the rouges job in combat is to find those low hp targets and finish them off. Or find vulnerable targets to sabotage. I find cunning strike interesting. Poison is clearly a defensive option. giving enemies disadvantage might not sound like much, but over the course of several combats It might add up. Given the changes to the poison spells and how common poison is now I feel that poison will not be as resisted as it once was. The poisoner feat would be a good choice for rouges as it gives +1 dex or Int, bypass resistance to poison damage and a 2d8 poison that can help take some of the sting off cunning strike lowering your damage. The poison also causes the poisoned condition allowing you to trip and poison or poison and withdraw Trip feels like it could be a fun little combo set up with other melee fighters or caster summons. If getting up from prone still takes half movement then tripping could be a really good way to keep the enemy from moving as far. The idea of a sharp shooting rouge with a short bow tripping enemies from afar sounds fun. Withdraw sounds like a useful one for harassing larger foes, as well as a safe option for doing chip damage. According to the reveal video assassins get a better version of cunning strikes poison as well as being able to aim on the move. Arcane tricksters get an empowered trip that lets them use their mage hand to trip an extra target. I think its going to take some time for people to change their mindset from "how do I get sneak attack" to "What do I do with my sneak attack."
I wish you’d make an in depth version of these videos. I never see people talk about magical ambush. I was thinking that taking fireball on a AT with maxed Int could be cool
Base Rogue looks incredible this version, probably my favorite base class. I view Sneak/Cunning options as Rogue 'cantrips': all these great tricks with a bit of damage thrown in. Who needs high DPS when foes can't act? 😁 Cannot wait to play.
Sounds like we are all coming to the conclusion that True Strike is now broken; apparently they didn't listen when I said so in the playtest feedback! 1) using it with a Light Crossbow is better than any other Cantrip below 17th Level, especially if magic weapons are used (except for Warlocks with Agonizing Blast), 2) it stacks with Shillelagh for a powerful melee option, 3) it stacks with Divine Smite for a Smiter without Extra Attack (taking just one level of Paladin). The Paladin changes video might be interesting - are they done as a single class option?
Yep. It doesn't work with dual wielding because you're taking the Magic Action rather than the Attack Action, but that seems like a minor consideration. Overall, it's great for any caster without Extra Attack.
@@MrSeals1000 And the Druid equivalent. The Cantrip really has a home on these martial Clerics and Druids (because they are combat-focused but lack Extra Attack and likely have a better Spell Casting Modifier than either Str or Dex).
Best fix for rogue IMO, would have been giving them a "sneak attack dice pool," that could split amongst multiple creatures per turn and have the pool reset at the start of their turn, and then giving them an extra bonus action. The extra bonus action is a VERY rogue feeling ability, and they could always limit what it can be used to do if they feel the need to balance it, but it effectively gives the rogue an extra attack while also focusing on the utility angle that rogues like to fill. Being able to split the SA dice means they aren't constantly overkilling mooks and can sneak attack one guy while using cunning strike on a DIFFERENT guy.
18:03 it sounds to me like the best solution is scaling up the sneak attack damage faster. Increases their average/base damage, but still allow trading damage for effects
I have house ruled the rogue's sneak attack to increase to a d8 at level 5, a d10 at level 11 and a d12 at level 17 and the rogue suddendly doesn't feel bad at doing damage comparing to the other classes. I playtested this and the rogue was doing around 70 average damage per turn by level 20 which is good imo. They are squishy and have utility so it feels appropriate.
My plan because RAW its doable is to use a hand crossbow and a dagger, stay at 20 ft range and use Nick to both shoot for Vex and actually throw the dagger for sneak attack, mixing in Steady Aim however possible on an Assassin to get advantage with the Hand Crossbow. Even if movement is zero after, I can still use Cunning Action to reposition myself. Hopefully a DM will allow me to carry as many daggers as possible, and at some point grant a returnint one.
Steady aim is a bonus action Cunning Action is a bonus action You can't do both If you are an assassin you can reposition after with your regular movement though.
You also have to do it like this: Hold hand crossbow and fire, using the other hand to satisfy the ammunition property Then draw your dagger as part of your attack action. Then throw it. You mustn't start your turn with dagger drawn. Just trying to advise in case a DM says you can't! You can and its a cool build.
Depending on the campaign, I have either just given the rogue oodles of magic items to keep up, or double their sneak attack, maxing out at 20d6. The doubled sneak attack is also great for un-optimized rogue characters playing next to highly optimized characters.
Scenario A: Intead of the fighter battlemaster having to spend a superiority die to give himself advantage or to trip the Ogre/Troll/Stone Golem, the rogue can do it for free *and* the trip cunning strike targets Dex save, not a Str one. Scenario B: Sorc wants to nuke enemies while they are still banded together at the beggining of the encounter, but most of them will move first. No prob. Assassin with Alert swaps initiative with him. Scenario C: High level party is facing an ancient green dragon. The casters have a spell combo that autowins the fight, but the Dragon's lair grants it 5 legendary resistances that they have to burn first. The 17th lv Rogue instead begins spamming unconscious devious strike DC19 (8 + 6 prof+ 5 dex ), which has a 60% chance of working ( Dragon +7 Con save ). Once unconscious, the Dragon can't use legendary resistance and automatically fails any save, so he absolutely has to burn 1 legendary resistance each time the effect works. 2024 Rogues are now great support characters instead of mediocre damage dealers like before.
@@J-B4R RAW is not exactly clear. Legendary resistance literally says the creature can *choose* to pass a saving throw they fail. It doesn't happen automatically. Unconscious states the creature is unaware of its surroundings. It would be up to the DM, but imo, making a choice requires some degree of awareness. I also can't really imagine how an unconscious dragon could move out of the way of a forcecage or how the ko'ed vampire avoided being grasped by evard black tentacles.
Thanks Dungeon Dudes for putting out these videos! You two include descriptions of the class feature updates and some game mechanics tips and tricks! I’m genuinely excited to try out the new changes AND to have way more options while playing a rogue 👍 As a side note, I’m excited to be drawing less #%@!ing rapiers on everyone’s character illustration. Finally rogues may actually look like the iconic dual wielders from every other RPG I’ve grown up playing 🤣
Right? Rogues can spam this on a stick too, with how easy they’ve made it to get sneak attack. These are good abilities if you are considering the rogue as a support character not purely DPS. Rogue do still work as a striker for causing major headaches / debuffing high value opponents. Just not always through damage. And I think that’s a cool thing. Also gives mechanical love and support to the poisoner’s kit.
On Rogue Damage, I think there is something weird in that Rogue base class is generally on par with a base Fighter of equal level hitting with all attacks, like a level 5 Rogue with a single weapon will deal an average of 17 damage (with a 1d4 weapon) to 19 damage (with a 1d8 weapon), while a level 5 Fighter if they hit twice they will deal 17 average damage with a 1d8 weapon and deal 22 damage with a 2d6 weapon, but this balance breaks down a bit with subclasses, feats, and magic weapons. Looking at subclasses, in a party that gets a short/long rest every 2 encounters, a Battle Master fighter using all their superiority dice on a maneuver that can be used to add the superiority dice to damage after confirming a hit, they should be getting 18 average damage every time they use their superiority dice, or 72 average damage every 8 encounters, if the party gets a short/long rest every encounter, they could be dealing 144 damage every 8 encounters. In contrast, a 2024 level 5 Assassin Rogue would be dealing just 40 damage over those 8 encounters, if they somehow are able to trigger their assassinate damage twice per encounter via a reaction attack, they would be dealing 80 damage. Though in fairness, it seems like the level 17 abilities of the Thief, and Assassin subclasses allow them to add more damage to the Rogue base class than the Battle Master subclass adds to the Fighter base class at level 18. Looking at the 2014 feats, using the Sharp Shooter -5/+10 attack, a Rogue could only add 10 damage, maybe 20 damage when dual wielding hand crossbows, while most other martials might be able to add 20 damage to 30 damage with dual wielding hand crossbows, with a level 20 Fighter being able to add up to 40, or 50 damage per turn even without using Action Surge. The designers removing the -5/+10 power attacks form the game is probably a net positive for Rogue damage compared to other classes. For Magic weapons, the majority have a "per hit" effect, so other martials get more out of those magic weapon than the Rogue, like a simple magic weapon that adds +1 to hit and +1 to damage adds 1 to Rogue DPR, but is adding up to 2 damage to the DPR of most other martials, while a Flame Tongue sword could be adding 14 damage to the DPR of other martials, it would only be adding 7 damage to a Rogue. It feels like to level the playing field there need to be some magic weapons that deal something like "+3d6 damage per turn" or even more d6's at a higher level.
Yeah that's the thing about rouges after level 5 after level 5 you fall apart on damage. Compared to other martials. Since those +5 for every attack with their damage adds up quickly to surpass a sneak attack without using a recourse. Assuming point buy and you put 17 on your attack mod they get a +3 for each attack. Thats why I don't understand why they could just make us have Beter utility with cunning strike. Honestly my biggest complaint about cunning strike is that if a monster has profanely in dex and con saving throws/witch most creature will have dex saving throws since aoe fireball.
I just wish they could at higher level how your cunning feature affect another target that is within 5 feat of the creature you land a sneak attack on also. That way I will not really care to much of the damage lost. But since It can be countered because those saving throws are the most needed for high level dnd games for creatures. They make them bad at supporting the team. Btw Just to let you know so far with all feats that have been shown on UA-cam. With the assassin rouge at level 17 for the first turn at max damage to be 258 to past 2 con saves and the creature is not immune to poison. Though this was with 2 1d6 short sword with nick.
They still have an opportunity attack to try double second attack against a creature. But it just feels bad about the Assassin rouge not getting +2 in damage for level on the first turn and if you beat the creature with an initiative. Like I just don't think it was good idea in practice to make the class that does the least amount of dpr in the spreadsheets to give damage. It should just been another resource we have limited amount in then we run out we could trade sneak attack. but there is so many quality-of-life features that could of been added to rogues to help make cunning strikes better for the Rouge.
@@darklight9450 if you do the base class damage numbers, at level 11 Rogues should be able to have a +5 ability modifier, and deal 28.5 to 30.5 average damage based on weapon type (1d4 to 1d8), compared to Fighters at level 11 who if they hit with three attacks should deal an average of 28.5 to 36 based on weapon type (1d8 to 2d6). Then at level 19/20 a Rogue should deal 42.5 to 44.5 average damage based on weapon type (1d4 to 1d8), while a level 20 Fighter who hits with four attacks would be dealing an average of 38 to 48 average damage based on weapon type (1d8 to 2d6). So I would not object to Rogue base class damage increasing a bit, but it might be in an acceptable range if other parts of the game were adjusted to avoid creating a gap between Rogues, and the other martial classes like in 2014 rules.
@@darklight9450 So an odd thing about the UA Assassin, and Battle Master subclasses, a number of the Rogue subclasses seem to deal less damage in tiers 1, 2, and 3, but more in tier 4. I was doing some calculations, between Assassin Rogue, and Battle Master Fighter, and at level 5 a Battle Master who uses their superiority dice on maneuvers which let you add the superiority die to damage after confirming a hit should get 18 damage every time they use all their dice, and if they get a Short/Long Rest every 2 encounters should be able to get an average of 72 damage every 8 encounters, while a level 5 Assassin Rogue who would be getting 40 damage over those same encounters. However, if you get level 18, a Battle Master Righter who can get a 1d8 from Relentless every round, and uses all of the Superiority Dice, and gets a Short/Long rest every 2 encounters, should get an average of 300 damage after every 32 rounds/8 encounter adventuring day. While for the Assassin subclass, if you assume a 50% chance of the enemy succeeding the Constitution save, their average damage from their level 3 feature, and level 17 feature should be about 333 average damage every 8 encounters from just the base class, and subclass. Also, a Thief Rogue with their extra turn in the first round of combat from just that feature should probably be getting an average of 280 damage to 320 damage every 8 encounters based on how often they can hit with an attack during their extra turn.
I think leaning into weapon properties as the pre for mastery means that they can make some magic weaps (coming soon) with properties different than their base weapon. ie. Magic Rapier + Dagger combo etc.
I love the utility of Cunning Strike I just wish rogues could use one of the options without sacrificing damage, and then be able to choose to sacrifice sneak attack to impose more conditions.
It seems to me that the Soul Knife is definitely going to be the best for doing damage. Here's why: with careful planning, you'll always have advantage on at least one attack during your turn, and be able to use Sneak Attack. The psionic daggers have Vex. If you take the Lucky feat, you give yourself advantage on your first attack. If you hit, you can use your Sneak Attack. And that hit gives you advantage on your second psionic dagger attack. If you hit with that, you get advantage on your first attack the next turn, and so on. Between Lucky, Steady Aim, and Vex, you're going to have advantage a lot, and use Sneak Attack a lot. I might be wrong on this - I haven't read the books yet, but this is from what I've been hearing about the new rules.
One thing you can do as a ranged rogue btw is use a hand crossbow and (thrown) dagger. Gives you two attacks still with vex and nick without using your bonus action. No crossbow expert needed.
In my opinion the resources the classes get to do their things: (if not mentioned, it isn't changed) Barbarian, fury Fighters, stamina Monks, ki/chi Ranger, focus Rogue, targeting Where each does something the others can't do, and it doesn't just benefit them, but the whole party. Like, rogue creating a weak point, fighters have control manoeuvres to change member location, barbarians being a morale boost (who doesn't get excited at an ally barbarian raging), that sort of thing.
I'm split on the rogue, I like the direction but I feel like they needed some things: 1. Clear easy-to-work-around rules for hiding in combat for rogues, something like "you have access to very simple smoke bombs that gives you brief cover to use the hide action, you can remain hidden without cover until the end of your next turn". 2. Assassin needed to be waaay quicker with diguising themselves, less than a minute since it's very rare that you have that much time to plan, and it should be treated as remaining "hidden" (so stealth roll) in plain sight, people around you just don't pay attention to you if you roll well enough to be "hidden". Think something in the lines of the hitman games. Regular disguising without supporting rules is also very vulnerable to mediocre deception rolls for a class that generally don't get anything from charisma. 3. Assassin should have damage bonuses from attacking from hiding, more so than the regular rogue, not that pitiful amount of extra damage they get from their rogue level and the poison cunning action. 4. All rogues need more damage, I think it's possible that with dual wielding feats/options, high movement speed, defensive duelist, and opportunity attack feats to reliably get more than one sneak attack per turn, they could do okay enough damage to be viable, but that still feels like a lot of work for "okay, but still worse than a fighter that is barely trying".
Perhaps the early tier list assessment will look like Paladin/Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer then Wizard/Cleric/Barbarian/Fighter then Monk/Druid/Ranger/Rogue for a 4-5 person campaign. It also appears that everything is close to the top-tier stuff, but still pretty clear tiering.
I feel like sneak attack is the best damage dealing class feature, primarily because it doesnt cost anything, and can be used in both melee and range attacks, paladins smite cant be used on range attacks and can only be used when you have spell slots, fighter gets max 3 action surges
I'm pretty sure, that Skulker is even better than you think (by a small amount, but still better). Previously, the last piece of it, where you remain hidden after an attack misses, affected only Ranged Attacks, and its new version is called Sniper. But I believe the text of the new version doesn't mention "Ranged" at all. So, you can miss with a dagger and still remain hidden (in the very shadow of your enemy)
I see the higher level sneak attack feature as a way to force monsters to use their legendary resistance. Being unconscious for a minute is lethal, especially in tier 3 and 4 play. The rogue can spam this once per turn and potentially twice per round at essentially no resource cost. Similar idea to 2014 monk stunning fist spam. Even Poisoned gives creatures disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for a minute, at the cost of 1D6 sneak attack. If you want to talk about a debuff that costs next to nothing to use and can be used endlessly, this is powerful. I also wish the rogue had a way to add cunning strikes without losing dice. But I think they are hardly worthless options. No they aren’t winning DPS, but they weren’t before. They can still zero in on a target and make their life miserable. Being able to cunning action (dash), move up, trip a target while making two attacks, and then scamper off is still a good combat strategy, particularly if it sets the fighter or barbarian standing next to you up for a full round of attacks with advantage. The 2024 tweaks make rogues better team players. Which may not be good for their brooding loner image, but I think is good for the game.
I definitely agree that taking away Sneak Attack damage for the extra effects is more of a side-grade than an upgrade. I do wonder if some DMs experiment around with granting multiple Sneak Attacks per turn just to see if that becomes too OP or if it works fine. Overall I think I’m still happy with the changes, but Rogues are not the big winners like the Monk and Warlock are.
I would allow multiple sneak attacks per turn, especially if they had to multi class for multi attack. Honestly you could just double the damage of all sneak attacks and at most tables, it wouldn’t be broken, hell it might not even be top dps.
It amazes me most people look at rules as written and, looking at them as a player, love game design flaws and even look for them. Somehow all the little flaws and gimmichs balance out and a "normal" meta remains. Anything not OP is just too bad, in need of a boost one day. This might be over half the options that are subpar... I've always looked at every part of every edition and immediately have two alternatives or fixes for every rule or option I find! I do feel DnD has evolved and improved a lot of the years, but I'm surprised nothing close to my approach has ever been attempted. I've made an overhaul based on deconstructing all classes, and let people pick class abilities. From a few core classes (warrior, expert, mage or priest) you pick levels. Every two levels you also pick a level in something else (1,3,5,...). Alternating levels (so 2,4,6,...) you get an ability score increase. You can swap these for feats or special magical/racial/ecl/bloodline bonuses (needed for Dark Sun advanced beings, Drow special abilities, outer planars and such). The downside of this approach is you can't allow just any gimmicky obscure class ability to be picked without good prerequisites. You can put the features in class and subclass list and limit how many you can mix. But that would be almost the same as the current system. But even if you have (too) few limitations, this system has one intrinsic self-balancing aspect, anything good is something everyone could pick! Yes even all NPC's. Some things just need a little boost or nerf to make sure they are not must-haves or worthless. It depends on taste and what kind of game you and players like, so playtest a lot and gradually allow more freedom. One interesting rebalance aspect to sneak attack, is that rogue levels can limit damage taken from enemy rogues. Btw, I've mixed it with a favored enemy / crit damage buff, so rogues are dangerous also when not sneaking.
One important thing to mention that was missed here was assassin rogues getting one of the very few DoT abilities with invenom strikes. 2D6 isn't a lot but it's the only concentration-free dot in the game.
It can also do absolutely nothing if the target is immune to Poisoned and resistant/immune to Poison damage. It’s a trap feature. Looks good until you consider the use in game.
@@redactedlemons6817 like the whole class imo. If you want a stealthy assassin, play shadow monk, if you a skill monkey play a bard or just takes the skilled feat honestly. If you want a glass cannon big damage, play literally anything else except maybe Druid.
Me: "there was a unique feature that the rogue got that was missed in the overview. I'll mention it here so others are better informed" People on the Internet: "that feature sucks" Y'all must be a lot of fun to have in the party.
@@SamanthaVimes177 sorry. Didn’t mean to be insulting just wanted to point out the feature isn’t that good, I think the fact they forgot it in the video shows just how impressive it is😂
I heard "Barrels of Whiskey" by the Paddyhats one too many times, and now I want to make a skilled Rogue who is a moonshiner/bootlegger. Be a great change of pace from games where the DM tries to keep you poor. Great adventure hooks as well
It would be cool if they could bring their skill checks into combat. Like sacrificing some sneak attack damage to steal a magic talisman off the big bad without being notice. Then, when the big bad tries to dimension door away or whatever, the rogue is on the other side of the battlefield because they used it instead. Just an example.
They should just give Rogues a class resource like Sorcery Points (# = levels in Rogue)…maybe call it Dirty Fighting Points or something, and use that as the resource for Cunning Strike. Keep the # of dice as presented as the cost. Done.
Hearing the changes to rogue makes me so glad that my CoS DM honors the nat 1’s for storytelling purposes. My swashbuckler is already a beast with the skill checks and we’re at lvl 7. If we changed to 2024 rules, my swashbuckler couldn’t roll below a 20 in three of his skills. The nat 1’s keep him humble lol
rogue has always been my favorite class (seriously, i fight myself NOT to make a rogue every single time) and i'm so glad to hear most of these changes!
Impact in combat doesn’t necessarily mean damage. Being able to knock out an enemy can cause a big impact in combat. Not every class has to be the big damage dealer, and personally I have always seen the rogue as the utilitarian. Just now it is both out of combat and in combat utility. Roles are a good thing for class identity, and honestly, I am excited to see these changes play out at the table.
Thank you for another great video. DnD Shorts recently uploaded a short video about how the new rules have made Clerics broken. I am wondering if you will go over what he says in your new cleric video?
I think the way they should have done the sneak attack cunning strike balance is they should have just increased the damage of sneak attack. either maybe the ceiling is higher, maybe 12 or 14d6 instead of 10, or else maybe at high level the d6s turn into d8s.
My heart at 7:15. as Kelly realizes he can't dual wield a rapier and crossbow.... Kelly: "my swashbuckler".... me: "for god sakes... let the boy have his swashbuckler!"
I like Cunning Strike, but kinda wish the Cunning strike stuff was made a little more complex and themed into subclasses. I.E. assassins get the Poison strike & Knockout as well as a bunch of poisons they can make and apply (giving them greater damage with different poisons as the level up, to address the damage output issue). Thieves get Withdraw & Daze and get to start with magic items from a short list. Arcane Tricksters would get tripping and then blind (caused by their mage hand), plus mage hand stuff, etc.
Thanks for the great content again! Would you guys consider putting together videos after the other books come out, for dms, addressing how to set up your games to challenge these new classes, i.e. how to challenge the new rogue/ bring out character traits.
@@ryanschramm8147 You could before it was just a optional rule to allow rogues to be able to have the feature or not. Now it is no longer an optional rule.
Unforunately it doesn't. they changed the wording with reliable talent that it now only applies rolls that you apply your *skill* or tool profs. which initiatve is not a roll with a skill prof. (they also changed Jack of all trades to work like this as well.)
@@alexlone1844 ah dang. Here I was thinking alert was just mandatory for rogues lol. Guess it's nice I don't gotta worry about it. Thanks for the answer!
I just want to say thank you for the extra work you’re probably doing to get this series out quickly. 💜
Thank you. It’s been an intense couple weeks lol.
@@DungeonDudes I hope you all get a break after things have died down a little.
@@DungeonDudes so much house rules going to have to be implemented for my campaign especially for rouges the other classes isn't to bad mostly house rules for just general rules that were changed, except for ranger class
I just want to take a moment and appreciate all of the middle names that Kelly and Monty have. I really like the joke and appreciate that it's a little touch that they've used for at least 6 years now as far as I know
Who comes up with those?
@@jamescferguson5566It's gotta be them, right? Who else could it be?
@@Samuel_KabelI’m sure they talk to friends about it at least sometimes
@@jamescferguson5566 There are a few that we know of in their group… Kelly, Monty, Joe, Jill, and Kyle.
Never change the legendary opening!
"Assassin is back, in Pog form"
Appreciate digging deep for this one.
“Remember Alf???”
Judging by the shirts you guys just filmed it all in one go, huh? Kudos, that is impressive.
Yup! Did five in one day.
I'm pretty sure it was stated during the playtest that the goal wasn't to make the rogue a better DPS but better at debuffing. It's worth noting that Cunning Strikes are essentially battle master maneuvers that aren't tied to a limited resource other than figuring out how to trigger sneak attack which is far easier now than it has ever been. Keep in mind too that the options you're going to be using most often are those initial 3 which all have a cost of 1d6; yeah that's expensive when they first comes online but they're pretty potent abilities and as your rogue's pool of sneak attack die grows they're going to feel cheaper and cheaper cost wise.
If the damage drop really bugs you, an small homebrew suggestion I saw elsewhere was to have the rogue remove the SA die after rolling instead of before and then pick which die they drop. Don't think you'll struggle to convince most any DM to agree to that.
I do agree though that this feature needed a bit more work. Would have been nice to have a way to divorce these effects from SA and instead gain bonuses to them when you do choose to drop the damage die for SA. Even a few free uses per day or negating the lower cost cunning strike option when you unlock the ability to use two per round would have been some nice QOL features. Hell, boosting the number of SA die would have been amazing as well.
Honestly the hand brew I have in my mind is that you gain 1 cunning strike point equal to your Proficiency bonus they reset on a short rest. You can trade these points instead of using your sneak attack dice. They are worth the same value as 1 sneak attack dice for the cost for a cunning strike. Allowing you to do both.
I think cunning strikes are more like additional weapon masteries (that you can stack with actual weapon masteries). Although since plenty of classes get weapon masteries they can sort of do similar effects (for example anyone with a topple weapon can knock people down on attacks like the rogue's trip). Devious Strikes have some very good effects, but you only get them at level 14 and most campaigns I play usually end by that level. That said, the base rogue is definitely better than what it was before so no complaints there.
I was really disappointed with the assassin changes, it was already unpopular and it feels like they made it even weaker.
I think that the homebrew of picking which die to discard after rolling them is great. New players often only care about damage so they won't probably use cunning strike much because it lowers their beloved damage, however, if they roll a 1 on their SA die they could be tempted to use their cunning strike. Once they see how good debuffing is they could start using more often, even if they have to sacrifice dice that are not natural 1.
I think cunning strikes is great and I don't really have a problem with them using the sneak attack dice. The problem was rogue wasn't really keeping up using the 2014 rules and now they are losing even more damage when using CS, I think scale from d6 to d8 level 11 and to d10 level 17 would have helped.
@RoninXDarknight I like that homebrew rule for Cunning strikes, but I'm curious if the Rogue player is required to call the strike before or after the roll. I can see the argument for both: you roll 4d6 and you get a 2 1s, that's disappointing, so you go ahead and turn in one of those 1's into a poison strike, but on the flip side, it'd be REALLY disappointing to call the Knock Out, then roll 8d6 and miraculously get a Yahtzee in 6's.
I've seen commenters complaining that the rogue is giving up DPS for extra utility. I can kind of understand where they're coming from, but I also never considered rogues to be a DPS class. Yes they have sneak attack, but they're mostly a utility and support class.
Problem is the Bard outclassed them in most things utility. While actually having magic and bardic inspirations
@@benross9174 Maybe bards need to be nerfed. or just eliminated.
@@benross9174 Bard is another really good support class. Although they don't have cunning action, or reliable talent. I haven't done a lot of looking into comparisons, and part of it does depend on whether you prefer full casters, or martials.
I remember the time I played a bard, and loved hypnotic pattern. It drove the DM crazy. We faced down several enemies in the street of a town, that wanted us out of the way. I cast this one spell, and most of them fail. The ones that don't get picked off first, and the rest of the encounter is just cleanup.
@@Psuedo-Nim not saying a nerf would be a bad idea. Removing them entirely is a bad idea though; its a fun class. Although maybe not in some super serious campaigns but thats up to the DM
I would say utility and combat, not really utility and support
Outro? Love when that doesn’t get edited out. It’s like an Easter egg
The fact that A) they brought back Ambush feats from _Complete Scoundrel_ (nostalgia is probably why I'm not too fussed about the damage penalty), and B) appear to have taken the lessons of Tasha to heart, make me really excited for Rogues!
Also, that mental image of a dual-wielding Assassin using Steady Aim while they move is just the most wonderfully anime thing I've heard in a while.
I don't mind so much the cunning strike feature giving up damage for utility if that's the kind of rogue you'd want. One on one fights with a rogue could be scary if they can constantly knock you unconscious for an easy auto crit at higher levels
I agree, I like the concept.
I think they could have offset the penalty a bit by adding an extra Sneak Attack die at lv5 though.
Other martials are getting extra attack at this LV, so I don't think it would be terrible balance
@@AL12rs I think of the rogue like a martial bard. With the reliable talent jumping and the bonuses they get with hiding. Rogues are going to be kind of what monk damage was, with a lot more utility like poisoning an enemy or the unconscious one that to me is concentration free hypnotic pattern but it last longer
😊
@@AL12rsThey did add something like that. I read that later you get improved cunning strikes which lets you double stack SA at level 11.
Cunning strike trip, is going to be pretty cool on soul knife when dealing flying creatures. Bugbear is gonna be great for this or any rogue.
I think it makes sense that the rogue is not the highest damage dealer, but is the most skilled and versatile, capable of navigating situations, helping the party get out of sticky situations in and out of combat. It's a different utility than the bard.
Also there's so many ways to get advantage now, that the rogue will be sneak attacking all the time!
There is an actual subclass called assassin
The problem rogues run into is that actually they aren't particularly versatile at least not compared to any caster.
The irony of the rogue is that as a martial they are forced to be honest.
Rogues would really benefit from skill having more actual mechanics that allow them to proactively do things.
@@jellewijckmans4836 we have to stop comparing them to casters, EVERY martial is outclassed by casters in terms of versatility
@@verdurite Casters are in the game so they need to be considered. When your class is supposed to about versatility the fact that half the classes make you irrelevant with one feature is kind of a problem especially when one of those classes has all but 1 of your skill features as well.
@@jellewijckmans4836okay so let’s ignore spells and see if that makes rogue better. A party with a cleric, paladin, ranger, and rogue with NO SPELLS still makes the rogue kind of useless. Ranger has DEX covered, cleric has wisdom, paladin usually has charisma, and the sheer higher stats is equal if not better then just proficiency added to a +0. Maybe at higher level when the rogue gets expertise but now you are pointless out of combat and not that good in combat. This has no spells taken into account and if a bard shows up it’s worse since they are charisma based so even without spells a charisma DEX bard is basically just a rogue without sneak attack. What’s left? The issue isn’t magic it’s that skill monkey builds are not that good. Just play a fighter and take the skilled feat, have someone there with guidance and bam, I just replaced a rogue.
While Lucky has been nerfed pretty hard in the update, Rogues seem to be the only ones that can at least somewhat treat it as a buff which is pretty nice
having your entire class depend on a single hit per round makes lucky nearly mandatory to have.
at least most other classes can do their 2nd attack with their main weapon.
Minor correction for Assassin's better Steady Aim: you still can't move BEFORE you use it, you're just able to move after your attack.
I'm actually really excited for these changes. Like yeah sure the raw damage output of the rogue is lessened but that's more in line with the extra focus on skills. Rather than worrying about rogue's raw single target damage being lessened, I'm seeing it as a change in the intended play style from damage blitz to utility closer in line to the bard
But both aren't comparable. Bard has spells. Rogues do not. Both have expertise. So. You're comparing apples to oranges.
@@captainnyan-nyan2005 I mean not really. Rogue gets extra utility now thanks to reliable talent coming earlier and has combat utility in the form of the new sneak attack mechanic. Different niches but similar roles
@@Ghostking5904 then tell me. Why do you think people were trying to get sneak attack as often in a reaction if that's not the case of them being less utility than the DAMN BARD.
@@Ghostking5904 one has magic the other does not.
@@captainnyan-nyan2005 Bro if you think the only way you can have utility is by casting spells there's a couple classes I'm gonna need to break some news about
Regarding Cunning Strike removing dices, I think that is fine, feels very roughish, but I would have offset this by increasing the number of SA dices by one at level 5 and perhaps another one at later levels, when the extra options get added.
This way it doesn't feel as bad and it wuld help keeping up with multi attack classes
one thing would really kept rouges in damage field . is if the sneak attack let you add 1d6 extra damage on a target for each condition they have.
Invisible enemies beware
I think the main thing about expending sneak attack dice to use your cool new abilities is that no one is putting a gun to your head and saying you have to use it. If you think the most important thing is damage, you can just use sneak attack without changing how it works at all. But now you also have stuff you can do besides just kill somebody. Because the important thing about Rogues is that they're all about setup. Outside of combat they're all utility all day, which is what Cunning Strike is meant to be, just for combat. You can set up your martial allies really easily, applying debuffs and increasing the chances of the whole team working as a whole. And all that plus the ability to deal all that damage as they have for years is just *chef's kiss* excellent
It's funny to see people complaining this much. "Now I'll have to have my DPS lessened".. but you won't. There will be situations, where going pure DPS and damaging as much as you can is a viable strategy, and ones where using new tools you have at the cost of some damage will help you to change the tide of the battle. What's even funnier, other classes are exactly like that - wizards are all utility, but once in a while inflicting as much damage as possible is all they need. Except rogues don't need any resources for that
In a group of unoptimized players the rogue becomes the damage carry. I think the rogue is in a really comfortable spot, the damage is good, maybe not great, but the skills and versatility makes up for it
I think they could have just given Rogue Extra Attack..that would have given them an additional opportunity to make sure that Sneak Attack hits and balance the fact that their damage is gonna be a bit lower due to Cunning Strike
Or just increase the sneak attack scaling, or make sneak attack a d8, give them a fighting style feat at 5, etc.
@@JJV7243 Another idea to buff the rouge is just strait up giving them a +2 for each sneak attack dice they have in the attack. That way trading for cunning strike is simpler. Since the cost is 1d6. You can't get rid of a 1d2 for cost.
Rogue with extra attack seems too much and it confuses new players that they can't double sneak attack.
Maybe a high level subclass feature for the Swashbuckler though?
@@apjapki swashbuckler rouge was only in the play test. It got replace for soulknife rouge. So sadly until we get another book no new swashbuckler features unless your dm allows to home brew. Honestly in the play test they cooked with them. While with the soulknife they just left in the fridge. Also at level 17 they had the feature that you wanted the swashbuckler to have the other extra attack.
@@darklight9450 Completely aware of all of that. It was a suggestion for a future book.
Can we get a video explaining all the melee actions? I have no idea what a vex or a nick does.
Weapon master Vex. When you hit a creature and deal damage, this mastery property gives you Advantage on your next attack roll before the end of your next turn. Meaning you have advantage in the future. The Nick mastery property allows you to make the additional attack you receive from wielding two Light weapons as part of the initial attack action. This means you make 2 attack rolls with one attack. One roll with one weapon + another attack with your second weapon as long they are both are light weapons.
There are many content creators who have covered weapon masteries (d4, Treantmonk, and Pack Tactics - to name a few) and DND Beyond Published the weapon masteries properties in a post on the website. Any of those places will be able to help you out!
I just see a lot of potential for Eldrick Knights and Arcane Tricksters now especially with how magic initiative works now🤩
The Dual Wielder feat specifies that the two weapons are (1) 'a weapon that has the Light property' and (2) 'a melee weapon that lacks the Two Handed property'. So I don't see where it prevents you from dual wielding a dagger/rapier or a hand crossbow/rapier?
The weapon mastery properties doesn't reward redundancy. I can have 2 rapiers yes but they would both have the same vex. But if you have a rapier and a short sword then you would have vex and Nick.
The Nick property of Daggers only lets you make an extra attack with a different weapon if that weapon also has the Light property which Rapiers do not. So you technically can Dual Wield them but you wont be able to use the daggers weapon mastery property if you do.
The issue is that the feat doesn't explicitly extend the ability of or remove the restrictions of wielding two weapons, so yes you could fight with a light weapon in your main and and a full weapon in your off hand to make a bonus attack attack (which is weird) but you couldn't also use Nick unless both weapons are light. The whole two weapon fighting rules are completely messed up in the new rules.
I have read like 3 completely different accounts of how DW works and I'm still very confused.
@@vortigern7021 It's easy to get confused. Here's how I think of it.
Light Property: Anyone who attacks with a Light weapon (e.g., shortsword) can make a bonus action attack with a different Light weapon (e.g., dagger).
Weapon Mastery: Anyone with Weapon Mastery for a Light Weapon with the Nick property (e.g., dagger), can make an attack with a Light weapon (e.g., shortsword) and then (as part of the same attack action) make an attack with the Nick weapon (e.g., dagger). This leaves your bonus action available for something else like Cunning Action.
Dual Wielder Feat: Anyone with the DW feat can make an attack with a Light weapon (e.g., shortsword) and then make a bonus action attack with a different weapon that doesn't have the two-handed property (e.g., rapier).
The issue that everyone is describing is that the Nick weapon mastery and Dual Wielder feats don't work together to fully support a rapier-dagger rogue who wants to keep their bonus action open for Cunning Action. If they attack with the rapier first, the DW feat doesn't work because the rapier isn't Light. If they attack with the dagger first, they can't attack with the rapier as part of the same action because the rapier doesn't have the Nick mastery property.
I'm not sure how/if the text for UMD (13th level Thief) has changed since the playtest, but if it hasn't... so long as you have expertise in Arcana, you can have an 8 Int and cast 9th level scrolls without even needing to roll. Automatic 19 or higher.
I feel like all we need to do to correct this “lack of teeth” for the rogue if change the role, make him a finisher… maybe attack on a bloodied target gets double damage, let him into the dervish role finishing off enemies
This is definitely the class I’m most excited to play in the new book! I like the idea of a “magical detective” character that I could play as an Arcane Trickster with high intelligence and a focus on divination spells. Lifting the restrictions on school of magic really is a huge deal for versatility and flavor.
Outro? Yeah
DANG... cherry on top was spectacularly delislcious... i about died in my kitchen. My son was asking what the dudes were talking about... i simply replied, they dropped an atom bomb to finish the episode... lol you guys are the best.
I'm loving your coverage of the new material
I didn't keep up with the UA, so it's great to catch up with the new official stuff
Damage king for rogue still going to be arcane trickster, especially at high level.
Cast haste on self. Use hasted action to sneak attack and cunning strike to knock the enemy unconscious. Then hold a booming blade for the start of the next turn and get sneak attack and booming blade with an auto-crit since the enemy is unconscious.
12:28 was the first thing i did when i saw true strike in the playtest. Intelligence Rogue. It even works on ranged weapons so its even better than booming blade for rogues.
For cunning strikes, I would homebrew that you can give up dice after the roll, and you can pick the dice you want to give up. So if you rolled a 1, you might want to do a cunning action instead of doing that one damage
I like this homebrew option.
I feel like I now want to hear a little bell go off whenever you say True Strike and we keep a running tally. :)
I commented on a previous video that you weren't being critical enough and this is exactly what we're finally seeing here. I'm glad you're expressing concerns. I'd take it a bit further and say that the changes in other class base features (think rage in social encounters for some reason) take away from other class base strengths. Rogues along with bards are skill monkeys. It's their ability to shine. I wouldn't have an issue if someone made a subclass that leans into other lanes - say a smart barbarian subclass to let players play Conan the Librarian - because those are specialization within a class. It's not like a Barbarian can't be social. They can roll the abilities just the same, they just don't have it as a strength. Same with slight of hand or any other skill. It's a huge problem for 5.5ed.
-Sentinel Feat has been buffed quite a bit to allow for more reliable off turn attacks and sneak attack.
-cunning strikes can be used on the off turn sneak attacks.
-protection fighting style synergizes even more than it used to for a teammate to work side by side with a melee rogue.
taking all these changes into account, I think the rogues damage and survivability actually went up.
Love that these're getting kicked out the door so fast that they're just leaving in stuff they usually cut, like restarting lines and Kelly asking if they should proceed to the outro 🤣
At my table as a homebrew hot fix for the new 24 Rogue would have Cunning Strike still reduce the amount of Sneak attack dice, but allow Sneak attack to increases in power (Example lvl 5 d8, lvl 10 d10 and lvl 15 d12) but amount of dice rolled is the same. Or just add a new source like Monty noted. I like to call my bew resource calls Daring Stamina, point you get are Dex mod + Prof Bonuse per short rest.
Tbh, adding another resource to track sounds so tedious for the Arcane Trickster and Soul Knife. Spell slots, SA dice, Psychic dice, feats, Hit Dice, now another special thing.
I think it’s smarter to keep it on SA and buff SA, if you really think it’s underpowered. That being said, I think it’s super well balanced, except for probably the 6d6 option.
I like the more "lite edit" videos as of late. There's just something familiar and comfortable seeing two people I look up to so highly fumble their words just as much as everyone else in the world. It feels more human.
Dropping SA dice for status effects is the same design Pathfinder 1e used for Rogues. While this doesn't seem as costly as it was in PF1, I think a lot of players might still find themselves rarely opting for the tradeoff, because usually the best "status" you can give your opponent is Dead from HP Loss. :)
I think people undervalue the Rogue’s damage with this TBH.
Dropping 1d6 from 3d6 can be a lot of damage sure, losing 33% damage, but then giving your Barbarian and Fighter or Fighter and Paladin Allie’s advantage on all of their attacks for a round from knocking someone prone is pretty good. Sure, Poison was commonly resisted in 2014, but that’s not as likely a case in 2024. Not only that but you lose 1d6 of poison to inflict it for potentially multiple rounds and the Assassin specifically can deal even more damage with the poison ability where as long as the first save is a failure they actually lose no damage.
At higher levels, yeah again 3d6 sounds like a lot, but being able to just blind an enemy so ALL of your team has advantage and your enemy has disadvantage on every attack is absolutely a huge boon.
So it’s easy to just say “Wow, Rogues suck because no big damage.” but yet if that’s how people feel then everyone should hate spells like Fairie Fire, Blindness/Deafness, Darkness, etc etc etc. For 3d6, getting a non-magical blind effect so no CounterSpell, it works through magic immune or resistant creatures, etc is pretty cool and brings much bigger party support than I really think we’re giving credit for.
Trip and Blind cunning/devious strikes sound pretty good.
A 5th lv rogue with 18 dex has a 75%-80% chance of tripping a Bulette or a Stone Golem.
A 14th lv rogue with 20 dex has a ridiculous 80%-90% of blinding a Storm Giant or an Iron Golem.
He/she could also combine both and force 2 saves per hit if the opponent is large or smaller.
No resources spent, no actions spent either.
As for daze and unconscious?
Yeah, those target Con so chances of them working are slimmer, but at 14th lv unconscious is an automatic L and daze is an amazing debuff in a game that's all about action economy.
Even if the enemy has legendary resistance, it would be useful because they can't afford not to burn one if they fail.
My Hadozee rogue (current 5e rules) has fifteen skill proficiencies and I think six expertises. He's a literal skill monkey
i always thought of rogues as dps and "one hit wonders", but after your "Final thoughts", I now need another video on how to approach the rogue, in both character creation, combat and roleplay. I have been desperate to play a thief or psi warrior, but i am afraid my characters i have for those (technically backup characters) may not work as i thought they would. the thief might, as he was intended to shy away from lethal attacks when against anything other than monsters (may learn that "monsters" are not so easily detected, etc). i guess i am trying to say i look forward to a revisit of the rogue class in general from you guys. always find your videos encouraging and thought provoking
Coming back to the video, at 7:00, Monty talks about Dual Wielder. But he says it's not possible to do rapier and dagger. I'm a little lost after looking back over the feat as to why that's not possible. Could I get some clarification? I don't see why it doesn't work
Kelly's jokes making Monty guffaw is the highlight of my day. Keep making great vids, dudes!
Thanks! Will do!
@@DungeonDudesPersonally I love it when one of you makes a joke and there is a cut straight after (think in yesterday's vid) as I imagine the other one groaned or lost it.
Doing all this on the heels of GenCon is awesome. Thank you for the content, hopefully sleep is on the schedule!
I played a soulknife with thrown weapon fighting for the damage boost and it felt pretty powerful even if the bonus action attack is one damage dice less. Outside of certain settings, psychic isn't usually resisted and it got around conventional weapon resistance. You'd still need to take a dip in fighter with the new rules if you wanted to get the fighting style. It would have fallen off pretty hard if the campaign had continued past level 5 though.
Double the sneak attack dices and let them sneak more than once per round and you got it resolved. (always need to flank or have advantage to get it tho). So it would be 20d6 at lvl 20!
Thanks guys for the vid guys!
As a bit of a tip to improve these videos, when mentioning a spell that has changed, like True Strike, it might be worth explaining the changes briefly for those of us that might’ve missed those changes. Hurts context quite a bit if we don’t know the details.
So I have noticed that the rouge, paladin and barbarian, all had their max damage output reduced, but have more consistent damage. In the case of the Rouge you have vex and nick dual wielding, lucky, steady aim and skulker. Its now even easier to get sneak attack. I feel like the rouges job in combat is to find those low hp targets and finish them off. Or find vulnerable targets to sabotage.
I find cunning strike interesting. Poison is clearly a defensive option. giving enemies disadvantage might not sound like much, but over the course of several combats It might add up. Given the changes to the poison spells and how common poison is now I feel that poison will not be as resisted as it once was. The poisoner feat would be a good choice for rouges as it gives +1 dex or Int, bypass resistance to poison damage and a 2d8 poison that can help take some of the sting off cunning strike lowering your damage. The poison also causes the poisoned condition allowing you to trip and poison or poison and withdraw
Trip feels like it could be a fun little combo set up with other melee fighters or caster summons. If getting up from prone still takes half movement then tripping could be a really good way to keep the enemy from moving as far. The idea of a sharp shooting rouge with a short bow tripping enemies from afar sounds fun. Withdraw sounds like a useful one for harassing larger foes, as well as a safe option for doing chip damage. According to the reveal video assassins get a better version of cunning strikes poison as well as being able to aim on the move. Arcane tricksters get an empowered trip that lets them use their mage hand to trip an extra target. I think its going to take some time for people to change their mindset from "how do I get sneak attack" to "What do I do with my sneak attack."
I wish you’d make an in depth version of these videos. I never see people talk about magical ambush. I was thinking that taking fireball on a AT with maxed Int could be cool
Base Rogue looks incredible this version, probably my favorite base class. I view Sneak/Cunning options as Rogue 'cantrips': all these great tricks with a bit of damage thrown in. Who needs high DPS when foes can't act? 😁
Cannot wait to play.
Sounds like we are all coming to the conclusion that True Strike is now broken; apparently they didn't listen when I said so in the playtest feedback! 1) using it with a Light Crossbow is better than any other Cantrip below 17th Level, especially if magic weapons are used (except for Warlocks with Agonizing Blast), 2) it stacks with Shillelagh for a powerful melee option, 3) it stacks with Divine Smite for a Smiter without Extra Attack (taking just one level of Paladin). The Paladin changes video might be interesting - are they done as a single class option?
Have to agree
Yep. It doesn't work with dual wielding because you're taking the Magic Action rather than the Attack Action, but that seems like a minor consideration. Overall, it's great for any caster without Extra Attack.
It also stacks with clerics Divine Strike! On both melee And ranged weapons.
@@MrSeals1000 And the Druid equivalent. The Cantrip really has a home on these martial Clerics and Druids (because they are combat-focused but lack Extra Attack and likely have a better Spell Casting Modifier than either Str or Dex).
Best fix for rogue IMO, would have been giving them a "sneak attack dice pool," that could split amongst multiple creatures per turn and have the pool reset at the start of their turn, and then giving them an extra bonus action. The extra bonus action is a VERY rogue feeling ability, and they could always limit what it can be used to do if they feel the need to balance it, but it effectively gives the rogue an extra attack while also focusing on the utility angle that rogues like to fill. Being able to split the SA dice means they aren't constantly overkilling mooks and can sneak attack one guy while using cunning strike on a DIFFERENT guy.
18:03 it sounds to me like the best solution is scaling up the sneak attack damage faster. Increases their average/base damage, but still allow trading damage for effects
I have house ruled the rogue's sneak attack to increase to a d8 at level 5, a d10 at level 11 and a d12 at level 17 and the rogue suddendly doesn't feel bad at doing damage comparing to the other classes. I playtested this and the rogue was doing around 70 average damage per turn by level 20 which is good imo. They are squishy and have utility so it feels appropriate.
My plan because RAW its doable is to use a hand crossbow and a dagger, stay at 20 ft range and use Nick to both shoot for Vex and actually throw the dagger for sneak attack, mixing in Steady Aim however possible on an Assassin to get advantage with the Hand Crossbow. Even if movement is zero after, I can still use Cunning Action to reposition myself. Hopefully a DM will allow me to carry as many daggers as possible, and at some point grant a returnint one.
Steady aim is a bonus action
Cunning Action is a bonus action
You can't do both
If you are an assassin you can reposition after with your regular movement though.
You also have to do it like this:
Hold hand crossbow and fire, using the other hand to satisfy the ammunition property
Then draw your dagger as part of your attack action. Then throw it.
You mustn't start your turn with dagger drawn.
Just trying to advise in case a DM says you can't! You can and its a cool build.
Good point @@apjapki
Depending on the campaign, I have either just given the rogue oodles of magic items to keep up, or double their sneak attack, maxing out at 20d6. The doubled sneak attack is also great for un-optimized rogue characters playing next to highly optimized characters.
Scenario A:
Intead of the fighter battlemaster having to spend a superiority die to give himself advantage or to trip the Ogre/Troll/Stone Golem, the rogue can do it for free *and* the trip cunning strike targets Dex save, not a Str one.
Scenario B: Sorc wants to nuke enemies while they are still banded together at the beggining of the encounter, but most of them will move first.
No prob. Assassin with Alert swaps initiative with him.
Scenario C: High level party is facing an ancient green dragon.
The casters have a spell combo that autowins the fight, but the Dragon's lair grants it 5 legendary resistances that they have to burn first.
The 17th lv Rogue instead begins spamming unconscious devious strike DC19 (8 + 6 prof+ 5 dex ), which has a 60% chance of working ( Dragon +7 Con save ).
Once unconscious, the Dragon can't use legendary resistance and automatically fails any save, so he absolutely has to burn 1 legendary resistance each time the effect works.
2024 Rogues are now great support characters instead of mediocre damage dealers like before.
Wait, they require you be conscious for legendary resistance now?
@@J-B4R RAW is not exactly clear. Legendary resistance literally says the creature can *choose* to pass a saving throw they fail. It doesn't happen automatically. Unconscious states the creature is unaware of its surroundings.
It would be up to the DM, but imo, making a choice requires some degree of awareness.
I also can't really imagine how an unconscious dragon could move out of the way of a forcecage or how the ko'ed vampire avoided being grasped by evard black tentacles.
Thanks Dungeon Dudes for putting out these videos! You two include descriptions of the class feature updates and some game mechanics tips and tricks! I’m genuinely excited to try out the new changes AND to have way more options while playing a rogue 👍
As a side note, I’m excited to be drawing less #%@!ing rapiers on everyone’s character illustration. Finally rogues may actually look like the iconic dual wielders from every other RPG I’ve grown up playing 🤣
A Portant Unconscious Strike is great.
Right? Rogues can spam this on a stick too, with how easy they’ve made it to get sneak attack.
These are good abilities if you are considering the rogue as a support character not purely DPS.
Rogue do still work as a striker for causing major headaches / debuffing high value opponents. Just not always through damage. And I think that’s a cool thing. Also gives mechanical love and support to the poisoner’s kit.
love that True Strike can be used on ranged weapons as well, familiar/ steady aim, True Strike, Shortbow, easy win for Arcane tricksters
On Rogue Damage, I think there is something weird in that Rogue base class is generally on par with a base Fighter of equal level hitting with all attacks, like a level 5 Rogue with a single weapon will deal an average of 17 damage (with a 1d4 weapon) to 19 damage (with a 1d8 weapon), while a level 5 Fighter if they hit twice they will deal 17 average damage with a 1d8 weapon and deal 22 damage with a 2d6 weapon, but this balance breaks down a bit with subclasses, feats, and magic weapons.
Looking at subclasses, in a party that gets a short/long rest every 2 encounters, a Battle Master fighter using all their superiority dice on a maneuver that can be used to add the superiority dice to damage after confirming a hit, they should be getting 18 average damage every time they use their superiority dice, or 72 average damage every 8 encounters, if the party gets a short/long rest every encounter, they could be dealing 144 damage every 8 encounters. In contrast, a 2024 level 5 Assassin Rogue would be dealing just 40 damage over those 8 encounters, if they somehow are able to trigger their assassinate damage twice per encounter via a reaction attack, they would be dealing 80 damage. Though in fairness, it seems like the level 17 abilities of the Thief, and Assassin subclasses allow them to add more damage to the Rogue base class than the Battle Master subclass adds to the Fighter base class at level 18.
Looking at the 2014 feats, using the Sharp Shooter -5/+10 attack, a Rogue could only add 10 damage, maybe 20 damage when dual wielding hand crossbows, while most other martials might be able to add 20 damage to 30 damage with dual wielding hand crossbows, with a level 20 Fighter being able to add up to 40, or 50 damage per turn even without using Action Surge. The designers removing the -5/+10 power attacks form the game is probably a net positive for Rogue damage compared to other classes.
For Magic weapons, the majority have a "per hit" effect, so other martials get more out of those magic weapon than the Rogue, like a simple magic weapon that adds +1 to hit and +1 to damage adds 1 to Rogue DPR, but is adding up to 2 damage to the DPR of most other martials, while a Flame Tongue sword could be adding 14 damage to the DPR of other martials, it would only be adding 7 damage to a Rogue. It feels like to level the playing field there need to be some magic weapons that deal something like "+3d6 damage per turn" or even more d6's at a higher level.
Yeah that's the thing about rouges after level 5 after level 5 you fall apart on damage. Compared to other martials. Since those +5 for every attack with their damage adds up quickly to surpass a sneak attack without using a recourse. Assuming point buy and you put 17 on your attack mod they get a +3 for each attack. Thats why I don't understand why they could just make us have Beter utility with cunning strike. Honestly my biggest complaint about cunning strike is that if a monster has profanely in dex and con saving throws/witch most creature will have dex saving throws since aoe fireball.
I just wish they could at higher level how your cunning feature affect another target that is within 5 feat of the creature you land a sneak attack on also. That way I will not really care to much of the damage lost. But since It can be countered because those saving throws are the most needed for high level dnd games for creatures. They make them bad at supporting the team. Btw Just to let you know so far with all feats that have been shown on UA-cam. With the assassin rouge at level 17 for the first turn at max damage to be 258 to past 2 con saves and the creature is not immune to poison. Though this was with 2 1d6 short sword with nick.
They still have an opportunity attack to try double second attack against a creature. But it just feels bad about the Assassin rouge not getting +2 in damage for level on the first turn and if you beat the creature with an initiative. Like I just don't think it was good idea in practice to make the class that does the least amount of dpr in the spreadsheets to give damage. It should just been another resource we have limited amount in then we run out we could trade sneak attack. but there is so many quality-of-life features that could of been added to rogues to help make cunning strikes better for the Rouge.
@@darklight9450 if you do the base class damage numbers, at level 11 Rogues should be able to have a +5 ability modifier, and deal 28.5 to 30.5 average damage based on weapon type (1d4 to 1d8), compared to Fighters at level 11 who if they hit with three attacks should deal an average of 28.5 to 36 based on weapon type (1d8 to 2d6). Then at level 19/20 a Rogue should deal 42.5 to 44.5 average damage based on weapon type (1d4 to 1d8), while a level 20 Fighter who hits with four attacks would be dealing an average of 38 to 48 average damage based on weapon type (1d8 to 2d6).
So I would not object to Rogue base class damage increasing a bit, but it might be in an acceptable range if other parts of the game were adjusted to avoid creating a gap between Rogues, and the other martial classes like in 2014 rules.
@@darklight9450 So an odd thing about the UA Assassin, and Battle Master subclasses, a number of the Rogue subclasses seem to deal less damage in tiers 1, 2, and 3, but more in tier 4.
I was doing some calculations, between Assassin Rogue, and Battle Master Fighter, and at level 5 a Battle Master who uses their superiority dice on maneuvers which let you add the superiority die to damage after confirming a hit should get 18 damage every time they use all their dice, and if they get a Short/Long Rest every 2 encounters should be able to get an average of 72 damage every 8 encounters, while a level 5 Assassin Rogue who would be getting 40 damage over those same encounters.
However, if you get level 18, a Battle Master Righter who can get a 1d8 from Relentless every round, and uses all of the Superiority Dice, and gets a Short/Long rest every 2 encounters, should get an average of 300 damage after every 32 rounds/8 encounter adventuring day.
While for the Assassin subclass, if you assume a 50% chance of the enemy succeeding the Constitution save, their average damage from their level 3 feature, and level 17 feature should be about 333 average damage every 8 encounters from just the base class, and subclass. Also, a Thief Rogue with their extra turn in the first round of combat from just that feature should probably be getting an average of 280 damage to 320 damage every 8 encounters based on how often they can hit with an attack during their extra turn.
I think leaning into weapon properties as the pre for mastery means that they can make some magic weaps (coming soon) with properties different than their base weapon. ie. Magic Rapier + Dagger combo etc.
Love that you didn’t edit out saying fighter instead of rouge in the outro.
I love the utility of Cunning Strike I just wish rogues could use one of the options without sacrificing damage, and then be able to choose to sacrifice sneak attack to impose more conditions.
Always the best from the Dudes and thanks a lot for your work.
Looking forward to see the the Ranger video
It seems to me that the Soul Knife is definitely going to be the best for doing damage. Here's why: with careful planning, you'll always have advantage on at least one attack during your turn, and be able to use Sneak Attack. The psionic daggers have Vex. If you take the Lucky feat, you give yourself advantage on your first attack. If you hit, you can use your Sneak Attack. And that hit gives you advantage on your second psionic dagger attack. If you hit with that, you get advantage on your first attack the next turn, and so on. Between Lucky, Steady Aim, and Vex, you're going to have advantage a lot, and use Sneak Attack a lot. I might be wrong on this - I haven't read the books yet, but this is from what I've been hearing about the new rules.
One thing you can do as a ranged rogue btw is use a hand crossbow and (thrown) dagger. Gives you two attacks still with vex and nick without using your bonus action. No crossbow expert needed.
In my opinion the resources the classes get to do their things: (if not mentioned, it isn't changed)
Barbarian, fury
Fighters, stamina
Monks, ki/chi
Ranger, focus
Rogue, targeting
Where each does something the others can't do, and it doesn't just benefit them, but the whole party.
Like, rogue creating a weak point, fighters have control manoeuvres to change member location, barbarians being a morale boost (who doesn't get excited at an ally barbarian raging), that sort of thing.
I'm split on the rogue, I like the direction but I feel like they needed some things:
1. Clear easy-to-work-around rules for hiding in combat for rogues, something like "you have access to very simple smoke bombs that gives you brief cover to use the hide action, you can remain hidden without cover until the end of your next turn".
2. Assassin needed to be waaay quicker with diguising themselves, less than a minute since it's very rare that you have that much time to plan, and it should be treated as remaining "hidden" (so stealth roll) in plain sight, people around you just don't pay attention to you if you roll well enough to be "hidden". Think something in the lines of the hitman games. Regular disguising without supporting rules is also very vulnerable to mediocre deception rolls for a class that generally don't get anything from charisma.
3. Assassin should have damage bonuses from attacking from hiding, more so than the regular rogue, not that pitiful amount of extra damage they get from their rogue level and the poison cunning action.
4. All rogues need more damage, I think it's possible that with dual wielding feats/options, high movement speed, defensive duelist, and opportunity attack feats to reliably get more than one sneak attack per turn, they could do okay enough damage to be viable, but that still feels like a lot of work for "okay, but still worse than a fighter that is barely trying".
Perhaps the early tier list assessment will look like Paladin/Bard/Warlock/Sorcerer then Wizard/Cleric/Barbarian/Fighter then Monk/Druid/Ranger/Rogue for a 4-5 person campaign. It also appears that everything is close to the top-tier stuff, but still pretty clear tiering.
Ive always conceptually preffered the idea of a melee rogue, so this is great to hear!
In the campaign ive been playing in ive been using Booming Blade as an Arcane Trickster and have been finding pretty good success in melee
I feel like sneak attack is the best damage dealing class feature, primarily because it doesnt cost anything, and can be used in both melee and range attacks, paladins smite cant be used on range attacks and can only be used when you have spell slots, fighter gets max 3 action surges
I'm pretty sure, that Skulker is even better than you think (by a small amount, but still better).
Previously, the last piece of it, where you remain hidden after an attack misses, affected only Ranged Attacks, and its new version is called Sniper. But I believe the text of the new version doesn't mention "Ranged" at all. So, you can miss with a dagger and still remain hidden (in the very shadow of your enemy)
I see the higher level sneak attack feature as a way to force monsters to use their legendary resistance. Being unconscious for a minute is lethal, especially in tier 3 and 4 play. The rogue can spam this once per turn and potentially twice per round at essentially no resource cost. Similar idea to 2014 monk stunning fist spam.
Even Poisoned gives creatures disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks for a minute, at the cost of 1D6 sneak attack. If you want to talk about a debuff that costs next to nothing to use and can be used endlessly, this is powerful.
I also wish the rogue had a way to add cunning strikes without losing dice. But I think they are hardly worthless options. No they aren’t winning DPS, but they weren’t before. They can still zero in on a target and make their life miserable. Being able to cunning action (dash), move up, trip a target while making two attacks, and then scamper off is still a good combat strategy, particularly if it sets the fighter or barbarian standing next to you up for a full round of attacks with advantage.
The 2024 tweaks make rogues better team players. Which may not be good for their brooding loner image, but I think is good for the game.
I definitely agree that taking away Sneak Attack damage for the extra effects is more of a side-grade than an upgrade. I do wonder if some DMs experiment around with granting multiple Sneak Attacks per turn just to see if that becomes too OP or if it works fine. Overall I think I’m still happy with the changes, but Rogues are not the big winners like the Monk and Warlock are.
I would allow multiple sneak attacks per turn, especially if they had to multi class for multi attack. Honestly you could just double the damage of all sneak attacks and at most tables, it wouldn’t be broken, hell it might not even be top dps.
It amazes me most people look at rules as written and, looking at them as a player, love game design flaws and even look for them.
Somehow all the little flaws and gimmichs balance out and a "normal" meta remains. Anything not OP is just too bad, in need of a boost one day. This might be over half the options that are subpar...
I've always looked at every part of every edition and immediately have two alternatives or fixes for every rule or option I find! I do feel DnD has evolved and improved a lot of the years, but I'm surprised nothing close to my approach has ever been attempted.
I've made an overhaul based on deconstructing all classes, and let people pick class abilities. From a few core classes (warrior, expert, mage or priest) you pick levels. Every two levels you also pick a level in something else (1,3,5,...). Alternating levels (so 2,4,6,...) you get an ability score increase. You can swap these for feats or special magical/racial/ecl/bloodline bonuses (needed for Dark Sun advanced beings, Drow special abilities, outer planars and such).
The downside of this approach is you can't allow just any gimmicky obscure class ability to be picked without good prerequisites. You can put the features in class and subclass list and limit how many you can mix. But that would be almost the same as the current system.
But even if you have (too) few limitations, this system has one intrinsic self-balancing aspect, anything good is something everyone could pick! Yes even all NPC's. Some things just need a little boost or nerf to make sure they are not must-haves or worthless. It depends on taste and what kind of game you and players like, so playtest a lot and gradually allow more freedom.
One interesting rebalance aspect to sneak attack, is that rogue levels can limit damage taken from enemy rogues. Btw, I've mixed it with a favored enemy / crit damage buff, so rogues are dangerous also when not sneaking.
One important thing to mention that was missed here was assassin rogues getting one of the very few DoT abilities with invenom strikes. 2D6 isn't a lot but it's the only concentration-free dot in the game.
If your target lived longer than 2 more rounds, and isn’t resistant/immune to poison, what the hell were you fighting???
It can also do absolutely nothing if the target is immune to Poisoned and resistant/immune to Poison damage. It’s a trap feature. Looks good until you consider the use in game.
@@redactedlemons6817 like the whole class imo. If you want a stealthy assassin, play shadow monk, if you a skill monkey play a bard or just takes the skilled feat honestly. If you want a glass cannon big damage, play literally anything else except maybe Druid.
Me: "there was a unique feature that the rogue got that was missed in the overview. I'll mention it here so others are better informed"
People on the Internet: "that feature sucks"
Y'all must be a lot of fun to have in the party.
@@SamanthaVimes177 sorry. Didn’t mean to be insulting just wanted to point out the feature isn’t that good, I think the fact they forgot it in the video shows just how impressive it is😂
Damn. Y'all busy this week! Thanks for all the videos! Super helpful
Using Lucky to trigger sneak attack is a genius idea. I'm filing that away for future use
I heard "Barrels of Whiskey" by the Paddyhats one too many times, and now I want to make a skilled Rogue who is a moonshiner/bootlegger. Be a great change of pace from games where the DM tries to keep you poor. Great adventure hooks as well
I’m about to play my first Rogue (normally love Magic users) but I’m going to play a Thief. Very excited!
Keep in mind when you crit and double your sneak attack dice the die cost for your cunning strikes does not double
I also play it this way but I think officially sneak attack damage is added after and not doubled
It would be cool if they could bring their skill checks into combat. Like sacrificing some sneak attack damage to steal a magic talisman off the big bad without being notice. Then, when the big bad tries to dimension door away or whatever, the rogue is on the other side of the battlefield because they used it instead. Just an example.
They should just give Rogues a class resource like Sorcery Points (# = levels in Rogue)…maybe call it Dirty Fighting Points or something, and use that as the resource for Cunning Strike. Keep the # of dice as presented as the cost. Done.
Hearing the changes to rogue makes me so glad that my CoS DM honors the nat 1’s for storytelling purposes. My swashbuckler is already a beast with the skill checks and we’re at lvl 7. If we changed to 2024 rules, my swashbuckler couldn’t roll below a 20 in three of his skills. The nat 1’s keep him humble lol
Rewatching the video, I love the outro xP
rogue has always been my favorite class (seriously, i fight myself NOT to make a rogue every single time) and i'm so glad to hear most of these changes!
The skill focus sounds like a 3.5e rogue… so I ❤ it!
I love the bloopers lol and appreciate your work. Waiting for warlocks let's go!
Impact in combat doesn’t necessarily mean damage. Being able to knock out an enemy can cause a big impact in combat. Not every class has to be the big damage dealer, and personally I have always seen the rogue as the utilitarian. Just now it is both out of combat and in combat utility. Roles are a good thing for class identity, and honestly, I am excited to see these changes play out at the table.
Thank you for another great video. DnD Shorts recently uploaded a short video about how the new rules have made Clerics broken. I am wondering if you will go over what he says in your new cleric video?
I have a ranged rogue but I'm still pickng melee vex and nick masteries. They are that good.
I think the way they should have done the sneak attack cunning strike balance is they should have just increased the damage of sneak attack. either maybe the ceiling is higher, maybe 12 or 14d6 instead of 10, or else maybe at high level the d6s turn into d8s.
My heart at 7:15. as Kelly realizes he can't dual wield a rapier and crossbow.... Kelly: "my swashbuckler".... me: "for god sakes... let the boy have his swashbuckler!"
I like Cunning Strike, but kinda wish the Cunning strike stuff was made a little more complex and themed into subclasses.
I.E. assassins get the Poison strike & Knockout as well as a bunch of poisons they can make and apply (giving them greater damage with different poisons as the level up, to address the damage output issue).
Thieves get Withdraw & Daze and get to start with magic items from a short list.
Arcane Tricksters would get tripping and then blind (caused by their mage hand), plus mage hand stuff, etc.
Thanks for the great content again! Would you guys consider putting together videos after the other books come out, for dms, addressing how to set up your games to challenge these new classes, i.e. how to challenge the new rogue/ bring out character traits.
Oh yes, we hope to.
I'm confused, could you not use Steady Aim on both melee or ranged before?
@@ryanschramm8147 You could before it was just a optional rule to allow rogues to be able to have the feature or not. Now it is no longer an optional rule.
Since alert adds your proficiency to your initiative roll... does that work with reliable talent?
Unforunately it doesn't. they changed the wording with reliable talent that it now only applies rolls that you apply your *skill* or tool profs. which initiatve is not a roll with a skill prof. (they also changed Jack of all trades to work like this as well.)
@@alexlone1844 ah dang. Here I was thinking alert was just mandatory for rogues lol. Guess it's nice I don't gotta worry about it. Thanks for the answer!