Is Purgatory Mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3? James White vs Tim Staples
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- Опубліковано 10 чер 2015
- Can the Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory be found in 1 Corinthians 3, which speaks of a man being tested and saved “through fire”?
In this stirring debate from the Dividing Line radio program, Catholic Answers’ own Tim Staples squares off with James White, director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, to try and settle that very question.
What a splendid example of eisegesis Mr.Tim, reading into the text something that is not there!!! I thank God for His faithful servant who labors faithfully in studying and explaining the whole truth from the Scriptures, for the sake of the glory and majesty of God in Christ...keep on brother, my prayers is with you and to all the folks that is being blinded and misled by worldly wisdom, with their craftiness, exalting the wisdom and works of man rather than the wisdom and the FINISHED WORK of Jesus Christ, the Gospel...
Beside theology issues, both men are very good speakers, and great debaters brilliant minds.
THANK YOU DR. WHITE!!!!
I do not understand why it says "the debate that Catholic Answers was forced to provide." This statement with no context seems to be falsely accusing Catholic Answers of some wrong doing without providing any specifics. I find that to be deceptive, unfair, and irresponsible..
In the basic end it takes 2 opposing sides to debate an established issue or topic. They (Catholic Answers) were “Called out” regarding purgatory and he
(Mr Staples) took up the challenge in defense of the Faith. Dr White seems too learned, thorough and knowledgeable in Catholicism also!
@@ttshiroma "Called out" implies that the ones defending the faith in purgatory are in the wrong. I would instead say that James White accused Catholic Answers of heresy, and Tim Staples defended the Catholic doctrine.
James White might have a lot of knowledge. We live in a time where misinformation is more common than truth. When two people seem knowledgeable on a subject, but are in opposition, only one can be right. I'll side with the 2000 year old tradition, which has remained steadfast in her teachings .
Yeah, I agree. But, it is what got me here to listen so I'd say it was effective click bait. I actually have spoken w Tim Staples when he was a hosting the Catholic Answers Live Radio show. I'm a fan of his.
@@hopelessstrlstfan181 The problem is though that it is not just clickbait. It actually accuses Catholic Answers of wrong doing or attempting to hide something. Christians are not supposed to be deceptive.
@@CatholicK5357 , I am not disagreeing w you.
"the addition of external authority does not clarify the text, it just muddles the text."
Actually the opposite is true . Personal interpretation has resulted in 38,000 Christian denominations . What a muddle that s .
Well judging by the comments, it seems instead of tradition, protestants have placed their intellect as a source of divine knowledge.
@Super Genius ?
So instead you place your intellect as the source of interpreting the infallible interpretation of Rome. You can’t interpret the infallible scripture but you CAN interpret the infallible interpretation by the church amirite? Why is there so much disagreement within Rome? Why hasn’t Rome just infallibly defined the entire Bible since it claims such a power. It would really help all the confusion.
@@KnightFel Infallibility is a negative charism, meaning that the Church is protected from erring when it teaches authoritatively. You're asking a question that would be more suited to something like inspiration, which is a positive charism. That charism ensures that everything that is written is authored by both man and God.
Different people interpret the bible differently. You need a referee to keep the game moving along. Otherwise-->protestantism and the never ending splintering of Christianity over the rules of the game.
@@tonywallens217the problem is who referees the church. They still haven’t infallibly defined 99% of the Bible in its “2000 year” history (Roman Catholicism hasn’t existed that long). They keep claiming that power but never wield it. You still have to interpret the interpretation from Rome. Your interpretation will be different from other Roman Catholics. There is no universal consensus on particular meanings of particular passages within Rome.
So, going back, you can’t interpret the infallible scriptures but some how you can interpret the infallible interpretation of the church.
There is absolutely no where in the Bible where it states the church is protected from error when speaking authoritatively. That’s just tradition, again. No where does God promise the church to be infallible when speaking authoritatively. The church still can’t prove apostolic succession or anything else that is God breathed/divinely inspired that doesn’t already exist in the Bible.
Consider just two verses:
*_Matthew _**_5:25_**_-26_*
"Reconcile with your accuser quickly while you are with him on the way, lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge to the officer and you be cast into prison. Amen I say to you, You shall not leave there until you pay the last penny."
Now the larger context is the Sermon on the Mount, Christ's teaching on the Kingdom of Heaven, that is of the spiritual lessons necessary to know what is good and bad and how to live. However, He is talking about heaven and Hell and who goes where or what happens to certain people. In other words, the whole sermon is very much to do with the spiritual afterlife and the lives and deeds or motivations that lead to either.
The immediate context before v. 25 - 26 is making peace with your brother before making an offering at the altar (don't try to please God while not at peace with your brethren).
So do Protestants think Jesus is recommending cool ways to escape having to go to prison? *NO.* This is a childish and spiritually blind way of looking at Christ's teaching on the Kingdom of God (which refers to the spiritual participation of humans in the after life here on earth, as well as Heaven itself). This is a spiritual teaching (which I'll prove with the next passage from Scripture).
Let's look at another teaching of Christ from His Sermon on the Mount:
(notice the structure with which our Lord conveys His teachings on these matters):
" *Beware of false prophets who come in the clothed as sheep but inwardly are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them.* _Does one gather grapes from thorns or from thistles figs? A good tree produce good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. Neither does a bad tree produce good fruit or a good tree, bad fruit. A tree that is not producing fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire._ *_Thus, then, you will know them by their fruits._*"
Notice the structure:
-- *Preliminary introduction to what the teaching concerns (false prophets).*
-- _Parable to help explain (the reasonable nature of) the teaching (compare trees producing fruit with people whose actions and fruits can expose them or exonerate them of bad or good intent, respectively)._
-- *_And finally the spiritual summary of the parable (know people by their fruits)._*
Now let's look at the passage about 'prison' again with its immediate context, just as above:
" *Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar.* _First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Make peace with your accuser quickly while you are with him on the way, lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge to the officer and are cast into prison._ *_Amen I say to you, You shall not leave there until you pay the last penny._*"
Again, notice:
-- *Preliminary introduction to what the teaching concerns (forgive one another).*
-- _Parable to help explain (the reasonable nature of) the teaching (compares being sent to prison for crime(s) and not being able to leave until you pay something for it, so make reparation for misdeeds now while you can)._
-- *_And finally the spiritual summary of the parable (make reparation for your sins because you won't leave prison (purgatory) until you have made reparation down to "the last penny")._*
To prove that this is a spiritual lesson and not the childish interpretation that it is talking about going to prison amidst a sermon on the Kingdom of God, look at this other passage which corroborates this clear teaching without ambiguity:
(the immediately prior context is forgiving one's brother -- the unmerciful servant)
*_Matthew _**_18:33_**_-35_*
" *'Should you not have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?'* _In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed._ *_That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart_*."
-- *Preliminary introduction to what the teaching concerns (forgive one another as God forgives you).*
-- _Parable to help explain (the reasonable nature of) the teaching (compares an angry master having a servant turned over for failing to forgive as he was forgiven with God demanding that ones sins also be purged, i.e. not forgiving your brother)._
-- *_And finally the spiritual summary of the parable (God demands punishment _until_** you pay back what is due to Him).*_
This is too clear to need explanation, He even explicitly says "That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you" in direct reference to His words: "In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed".
Only the spiritually blind would deny this. even a 3 year old could extract the meaning of this passage.
But notice an important qualification. This isn't damnation. Because He is only tortured (however metaphorically you take this, it is nonetheless punishment or exaction or purification of some kind) *_until_* the point when satisfaction (full repayment of all that is due) is made.
I'll leave this here and whoever sees it will see, whoever doesn't, I can't force them to.
@@AveChristusRex if you think that verse talks about purgatory you are reading the verse completely out of context.
@@anthonygarcia3960 The context is precisely that which proves its about spiritual prison (compare 1 Pet. 3:19), even if it wasn't already used in this sense even in the first century by the *earliest Christian writing outside the New Testament.* Jesus is here teaching all about heaven and hell, he isn't giving tips on how to avoid mere earthly prison, which if it were such, was far too self-evident and obvious to everyone - He is using that common knowledge to tell us about God's kingdom, not man's. The point is to repent and do penance while you are still "on the way," living, instead of needing sanctified in the next life -there are no snow covered dumps in heaven, nor will there ever be, and sanctification is a process, necessarily, of change in the person, which we must experience in order for us to become changed persons, not something that can happen while we're asleep or without the pain of said change.
Bravo! Mr.Tim Staples..May our Loving God ever bless u..and used u for his/her peoples to understand his words.
He lost though
Hey, do you still plan on making videos?
guess you could say Tim Staples... suffered loss.
The more I listen to these debates, the more I see and understand the power of the adversary. There is a blindness cast over men so powerful that only God will be Abel to divide the truth from the lie. Both men are grounded in what they see as true biblical exegesis. I am a believer in the complete sufficiency of Christ, yet realize that it is only by the gift of God that I have the ability to see. Thank you Lord Jesus for your grace and love, not just offered but granted to a sinner like me.
Romans 9:11-13
11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Bare with me in a bit of foolishness. As I study the Gospel, I have never read were the pharisees ever charged a man for obeying God on the Sabbath, in regards to a work. And if ever there were men who would find fault in a thing and call it a work, Shirley these would be the men to have done so.. if than these men did not see obedience to God as a work, why does the Roman Catholic Church🤔
2 Corinthians 1:19-22
English Standard Version
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, whom we proclaimed among you, Silvanus and Timothy and I, was not Yes and No, but in him it is always Yes. 20 For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. 21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Timothy 2:13 ►
If we are not faithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot be false to himself."
So as I understand it we are sealed in Christ when we receive the Holy Spirit and he also represents the guarantee of eternal life dwelling in us.
John 6:37
“All” that the Father giveth me “shall come to me”; and him that cometh to me “I will in no wise cast out”.
If we are given by God to Christ through the gift of faith and all that the lord gives “ will” not “may” come to him, it is not an offer of salvation contingent on us, rather the Devine election of God which “will” be fulfilled for his good purpose.
Amen ! thank you Father, Son and Holy Ghost..
I'm surprised that Dr. White doesn't challenge the repeated implicit Catholic doctrine of Mr. Staples in salvation by works. The central underlying assumption by Mr. Staples is that salvation is thoroughly based on our works, the core foundation of Catholicism's dogma of Purgatory, a fundamentally unbiblical belief.
Excellent exegesis Mr. White, most excellent
Psalms 107:1 O give thanks unto the LORD, for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever./inspiration+ Give thanks to the Lord for His mercy. We had not done anything to warrant His divine grace and love, but yet here it is, shining on our spirits. Throughout our lives, in a million different ways we may transgress His wishes and words, but so long as we keep our hearts pure, and continue to serve Him in all we do, then shall His mercy be infinite./prayer+ Merciful Lord, eternal is Your love for Your children. I pray for Your patience when or if I offend or transgress Your wishes, and to grant me the goodness within my heart, to improve each and every day in serving Your word. For You are our compassionate Lord, our shepherd and benevolent Creator, to whom I praise for all eternity. Amen.
ARGUMENT FOR PRAYING FOR THE DEAD
Premise 1: Prayers for all people to receive the fullness of salvation pleases God.
(1 Timothy 2:1-4)
Premise 2: There are some departed souls who enter a state that is neither heaven nor hell.
(Philippians 2:10-11)
Premise 3: The souls “under the earth” who confess that Jesus Christ is Lord are righteous.
(John 9:31)
Premise 4: If a soul is not yet fully purified, the soul cannot enter heaven.
(Revelation 21:27)
Premise 5: Not even death can separate us and Christ from His love.
(Romans 8:38)
Conclusion: Prayers for the departed souls to be fully purified by the love and mercy of Christ is pleasing in the eyes of the Lord.
Last one: the Church has been praying for the dead since her inception-1500 years before Protestants decided otherwise
Your cherry picking of verses utterly refutes ''YOLO''(you only live once...) by paul
This is terrible exigency
As an Orthodox Christian we believe in final theosis and it's the same.
a so called saved person goes to purgatory and if people here do enough novenas they pull him out ? that is stupidity to the fullest how can a dead human being hear all people all over the world at the same time without being omnipresent and omniscient?
Sorry brother , but to say that prayers cannot pull people out of purgatory is not stupid at all .
What I find absolutely untenable is that a person who has committed the most horrific crimes all their life , can go straight to heaven after a death bed conversion .
I personally find that to be an affront to the justice of our Lord . Justice demands that we pay our debts even when we have been forgiven .We either do it in this life , or in the next .
Tim Staples is right ; Its not really that hard .
You have made a strawman argument in saying the souls in purgatory would need to be omnipresent to hear all the prayers of those on earth .
Why would they need to be omnipresent ???????
We don't need to hear a prayer to receive the benefits of a prayer
We can receive the fruit of peoples prayer on earth without being omnipresent , so why would those in purgatory need to be omnipresent .
The answer is of course , is no , they don't .
Just as each of us can receive the fruits of the prayers of people without having knowledge of such prayers , so can those in purgatory receive prayers from those of of us on earth without having knowledge .
+PAUL VINCI The thief on the cross had a death bed experience.
God gives to the souls in Heaven a certain amount of omnisciece and omnipresence so that they can hear our prayers.
@@paulywauly6063there is no debt payment once forgiven. That’s it how forgiveness works. You don’t tell someone you forgave them but they still need to pay you back. You incurred a debt to God when you sinned, Christ paid the debt, all of it. It’s now complete, it’s over, hence Christ’s words “It is finished!”.
@@georgepenton808no where in the Bible does it say that. That’s just man made tradition.
I just gotta laugh at the background graphic for this video. The debate that Catholic Answers was FORCED to provide!!!! In its original form, that was a banner ad on AOM that read The debate that Catholic Answers DOESN'T WANT YOU TO HEAR!!!! Utter nonsense and deliberate perversion of the truth, things that Protestants normally don't stand for ;)
Here's a link explaining what actually happened: www.catholic.com/blog/jon-sorensen/the-debate-we-don%E2%80%99t-want-you-to-hear
In a nutshell, the length of the debate made it too short to put on a CD and offer for sale, and at that time CA did not have the ability to offer MP3's for sale. They were not too concerned with advertising James White's radio show anyway, so they didn't bother offering it. Once they were aware of the manufactured controversy and AOM's advertising campaign misrepresenting the issue, and they had the technical means to do so, they put the MP3 up. Bingo bango.
I like to share that dr. James white fails to be fully honest at times but gets on debate mode and simply doesn't want to be wrong! Its really annoying but i understand where it comes from, its called pride. Tim staples was being honest & real atleast, and simply tries to share truth while glorifying god and NOT himself.
Folks i will tell you its impossible to interpret the bible as a WHOLE at 100%... For You protestants, the bible says "Not by faith alone". It also says "keep the traditions either written or by WORD OF MOUTH". so follow your bible, and come to the lords fullness of christianity. Its waiting for everyone at the catholic church..
Praise The Lord Of Most High's equipment tim,the servant and the defender of the CHURCH
De TU religión
My question is, are the people who are "Gold" and going straight to heaven without sin? Does anyone believe they will die without sin even after having Christ?
Sheol Hebrew Hades Greek Translated to Latin Purgatore. Purgatory in English. Final purification place.
I didn't believe in Purgatory nor was I Catholic. Until I read the Bible. I showed Zechariah 13:8-9 to my friends and family, and my dad told me to read a Bible commentary. He expected me to read a Protestant commentary (My MacArthur Study Bible explicitly says to not interpret these verses as Purgatory and other Catholic doctrines), so I read one of the earliest commentaries. It wasn't on doctrines of Purgatory because it was on the Gospels, but right at the beginning it affirms Marian doctrines of Catholicism because it says, "whoever is of a sound mind, and spiritual, ought not to
suppose that Joseph, a righteous man who both saw visions of angels and learnt what he should do from the information of an angel, would have been able to defile Mary." Basically, no one who is sound should ever be able to interpret that Joseph would have sex with Mary, who bore the living God. Why are Protestant commentaries telling people how NOT to interpret the Bible if the Holy Spirit is leading them to interpret the Bible as Catholic doctrine? I can't wait to read the commentary on the Jesus' discourse on the Bread of Life in John chapter 6.
I found that Jews believe in hell as a kind of purgatory, then I think the idea of purgatory existed in the time of Jesus.
Didn't Mr Alighieri prove that purgatory is a gigantic mountain in the southern hemisphere? Given that one can fly easily to the Moon from the summit, it sounds purgatory IS worth looking for... sort of.
I just love the way James White evades verse 15 "that the person will be saved, but only as through fire". It's pretty plain and simple what is being said in this text. Notice, also how James White changes the topic and starts talking about Papal decrees and Papal Infallibility. That is a desperate man grasping at straws! Great job Tim, for pointing out the obvious!
+James Curtis It is indeed simple. The fire of life's disciplines from God are stern. Fortunately, we believers will never see the wrath of God. Only discipline.
You are right, it's pretty easy to understand what the text says when you read it in the FULL context, and not just extrapolating a sentence from all the rest and focus on it to then filter all the rest through that lens. It's pretty easy to understand the references to, for example, the book of Job and other similar ones where man is tested for his faith by and on his works. The judgment is just the final cleansing (where everything becomes fully disclosed) but all men are tested throughout their life, that's what this mortal life is meant for (to cleanse the righteous from his original sin, exactly like Jesus cleansed Peter from his betrayal before making him ready to receive the Holy Spirit). Given this, what would be the point of a "purgatory"? Mortal life is the "cleansing stage" for the elect.
If you could make a bet on how many people that don't know anything about Catholic doctrine, Protestantism etc. would read that text and from it come to the conclusion that there's a state after death in which you have to purify your sins for a while, you would lose all the money you had and more. There's simply no way to read the text in that way if you are objectively and impartially looking through it, you have to force an external interpretation to have that text assume that position. Even Catholic apologists acknowledge that, and, in fact, they say openly that the text must be understood in view of other texts that can make you understand what it "really" says. A shame that with this modus operandi you can "prove" (or insist you do) whatever the hell you want.
Thank you Tim for your awsome apologetics. No matter how many times we explain to protestants where the teaching of purgatory is found they will never except it because of their "personal" interpretation. Very dangerous
+nickovify It's dangerous when Catholics like you can't even distinguish the difference between 'except' and 'accept.' And I'm not quibbling. How can you make proper exegesis of Scripture if you don't even know the correct spelling of these ordinary words? And no, we don't make 'personal' interpretations. We make proper exegesis. You're the ones that make those 'personal' interpretations, which is eisegesis. Anyway, I pray that you will come to know the truth someday before it's too late. Read Scripture properly.
+Eric Badong Just as Martin Luther used proper exegesis by adding the word "Alone" and "Only" to his bible to get his faith alone doctrine going . And so birthing the protestant reformation...
Eric , you have contradicted yourself . You are are creating a storm in a tea cup . Therefore you are quibbling .
Sometimes autocorrect changes our intended words in to something else .
You obviously haven't considered that possibility
Your charge that Nicks exegetical capabilities are flawed due to something that may not even be his fault is unreasonable
Secondly :
YOU SAID :
"We make proper exegesis. You're the ones that make those 'personal' interpretations, which is eisegesis.
MY RESPONSE :
Thats patently false . The reformation and its "sola scriptura" or "personal interpretations" of sacred scripture has yielded 38,000 Christian denominations .
It is self evident just how damaging personal interpretation has been when there is no unity or glue that hold 's protestants together in a cohesive thought or belief .
So when you say "we" , who exactly are you representing ???????
What denomination do you represent in the mix of 38,000 christian denominations , all of which have their "own interpretation" .
I appreciate your prayers , but you need present a logical argument yourself before you can invite others into your belief system .
Still pray for us , because we all need prayers .
I grew up as a Roman Catholic and my salvation comes by faith and faith in the death, burial and resurrection of JesusChrist, the Living Son of God. God the Father NEVER appointed ANYONE else to shed their blood for my sins. No ONE in the bible can redeem me like JesusChrist; HE and HE alone is the ONLY Messiah that was sacrificed for the sins of the world. No agent can redeem me; ONLY the eternal Father with HIS GRACE through HIS ONLY begotten Son has THE power to keep me safe me from ALL the powers of evil. The Holy Ghost teaches me to UNDERSTAND HIS word that HE inspired and gave to the Apostles for ALL future believers to HEAR, BELIEVE AND REPENT. No institution has the power to save souls but to bring them to the feet of Jesus to be reconciled to God the Father after they recognized that their sinners. Religion has no authority but the living WORD of God that overpowers Satan and his demons to be under the believers footstool; and that power and authority was given to ALL believers(Christians) in JesuChrist. The Church of JesusChrist is the ONE that BELIEVES and is faithful to God the Father through JesusChrist ONLY. Blessed are those that BELIEVE in the NAME of the ONLY begotten Son of God, JesusChrist. Unto HIM be the GLORY and the POWER FOREVER, AMEN!
why
All the more reason that we need to belong to the Catholic Church, the only Church Jesus ever founded.
For all of you are a royal priesthood! All are priests
"The day" is not necessarily Judgment Day. The day can be any day that tests what an individual has built upon the foundation of Christ in their life. What is it we build? Godly Character, and divine virtue!!
Any disaster or trial in this life is a type of SPIRITUAL FIRE that tests our faith and character. If there is a HELL, or a Purgatory, we are in it right now. Every Christian will go through trials and tribulations in this life and it is these trials and tribulations which build godliness(Godly character and virtues) in us, and those same trials burn up that which is contrary to godliness, divine character, and virtue. This is a process that is tailored to each individual by God according to what they can handle at a given time. No one is going to be perfected in this life, but at the rapture we will all be given new heavenly bodies that are incorruptible. Paul says nothing about being raptured and then going to some place to get purified by fire so we can get into heaven (1 and 2 Thessalonians, and in 1 Cor.)
Good work Mr Tim
"Forced to provide" because nothing says "objective" like arrogance.
Also the debate Tim Staples won, soooooo
Staples' entire argument requires it's proponent to ignore the word "as" in the phrase "as by fire". The word 'as', like the word 'like', indicates a ~simile~; not a tangible happening. Staples wants it to mean "...purified by fire" (that ~might~ suggest 'Purgatory'), when it is strictly a literary EXAMPLE: "....purified, AS by fire". If there was a Purgatory, and it included a literal Purification By Fire, then the text would have read "....purified by fire'. As it actually reads, though, it's a simile.
Staples' ridiculous omission of the word ~by~'s meaning in his exegesis is no different than arguing that "..... I come LIKE a thief in the night" means Jesus is going to come steal your stuff.
AS by fire.
LIKE a thief in the night.
Tim Staples is wallowing in a make-believe lack of understanding of simile, metaphor, and literary expression (since that one passage is as close as he can get to ANYTHING that looks like it ~might~ give his heresy some credence). Just remember, like the Mormons do, that the word 'as' doesn't REALLY mean anything....let alone that it precedes a figurative example/simile.
tim staples is pretty good
And wrong
Even if some consider Staples to have won - a questionable conclusion at best - this merely puts us on the doorstep of the problem. Catholicism, which once was so staunch as to anathematize and execute those who defied her teachings, is today so broad-minded as to give a nigh-universalist nod to sincere practitioners of so many pagan religions. How can Catholics, on one hand, feel great about the souls of "good" folk who have never heard the Gospel, yet on the other hand, summon themselves suddenly to such urgent warnings for Gospel-believing Protestants?
True Catholics today believe, as true Catholics down through the centuries believed, that outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation.
Whenever you are next at prayer ask the Good Lord to show you, out of all the various churches, religions, and denominations in the world, which one He wants you in, and I absolutely guarantee He will show you that He wants you in the Catholic Church.
@@georgepenton808the church is the body of believers. Not a particular institution. All the eastern churches claim the same thing and anathematize you, as a Roman Catholic. Who’s right? Btw, 1000 years ago that probably held true, since there was only one church in tiny Europe, but the gospel has spread worldwide and now the gospel can be found in thousands of churches. The Roman gospel cannot save anyway, it would fall under the anathema of Paul. It’s a good thing most people couldn’t read or understand Latin back then. They just had a simple faith in Christ despite all the Roman doctrine, and were saved. If you believe the official teachings of Rome, that will not save you.
The gospel of purgatory, that man expiates (atones) for sins that Christ's sacrifice failed to cleanse us of, is a mockery of the Cross.
Christ's sacrifice perfects FOR ALL TIME, those for whom it was made.
What is it with Protestants and UPPERCASE. It comes across as angry and upset, rather than a civilized objection.
The only problems with your assertions is that they are from Protestant theology, they aren't biblical, and they force you to interpret Scripture in a way so as to interpret everything around one or two verses (very poor exegesis).
One example of how you've wrongly interpreted Scripture is:
*_Colossians _**_1:24_*
"Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh _what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions_, for the sake of his body, which is the church."
If your interpretation was correct (i.e. that Christ's sacrifice somehow 'magics' you perfect and from which you can't later dissent from), then this would no doubt be a contradiction which the perfection of Christ's work(that there is some sense in which Christ failed on the Cross, which He obviously didn't).
But if the interpretation of Scripture up until Luther etc is correct, then Christ's sacrifice was totally sufficient and perfect _for saving all mankind from sin_. Not in forcing them to be perfect in every way, although it did merit that grace for all who would comply and co-operate with God's work in them to fill them with grace and thereby perfection.
Christ's sacrifice was also made on behalf of all, and therefore any that accept it and live according to His teaching will receive it. He didn't atone in a limited way (even though a limit set are saved). This was invented later.
The Gospel is the good news of Jesus Christ, that the Messiah came as promised to free us from our sins and atone for our sin, thereby opening heaven "to as many as would receive Him". Good news indeed! But too use the word 'gospel' in reference to any doctrine is a misconception of the meaning of the Gospel.
The doctrine of Purgatory has always been believed, though.
Consider just two verses:
*_Matthew _**_5:25_**_-26_*
"Reconcile with your accuser quickly while you are with him on the way, lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge to the officer and you be cast into prison. Amen I say to you, You shall not leave there until you pay the last penny."
Now the larger context is the Sermon on the Mount, Christ's teaching on the Kingdom of Heaven, that is of the spiritual lessons necessary to know what is good and bad and how to live. However, He is talking about heaven and Hell and who goes where or what happens to certain people. In other words, the whole sermon is very much to do with the spiritual afterlife and the lives and deeds or motivations that lead to either.
The immediate context before v. 25-26 is making peace with your brother before making an offering at the altar (don't try to please God while not at peace with your brethren).
So do Protestants think Jesus is recommending cool ways to escape having to go to prison? *NO.* This is a childish and spiritually blind way of looking at Christ's teaching on the Kingdom of God (which refers to the spiritual participation of humans in the after life here on earth, as well as Heaven itself). This is a spiritual teaching (which I'll prove with the next passage from Scripture).
Let's look at another teaching of Christ from His Sermon on the Mount:
(notice the structure with which our Lord conveys His teachings on these matters):
" *Beware of false prophets who come in the clothed as sheep but inwardly are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them.* _Does one gather grapes from thorns or from thistles figs? A good tree produce good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. Neither does a bad tree produce good fruit or a good tree, bad fruit. A tree that is not producing fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire._ *_Thus, then, you will know them by their fruits._*"
Notice the structure:
-- *Preliminary introduction to what the teaching concerns (false prophets).*
-- _Parable to help explain (the reasonable nature of) the teaching (compare trees producing fruit with people whose actions and fruits can expose them or exonerate them of bad or good intent, respectively)._
-- *And finally the spiritual summary of the parable (know people by their fruits).*
Now let's look at the passage about 'prison' again with its immediate context, just as above:
" *Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar.* _First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. Make peace with your accuser quickly while you are with him on the way, lest he deliver you to the judge and the judge to the officer and are cast into prison._ *_Amen I say to you, You shall not leave there until you pay the last penny._*"
Again, notice:
-- *Preliminary introduction to what the teaching concerns (forgive one another).*
-- _Parable to help explain (the reasonable nature of) the teaching (compares being sent to prison for crime(s) and not being able to leave until you pay something for it, so make reparation for misdeeds now while you can)._
-- *_And finally the spiritual summary of the parable (make reparation for your sins because you won't leave prison (purgatory) until you have made reparation down to "the last penny")._*
To prove that this is a spiritual lesson and not the childish interpretation that it is talking about going to prison amidst a sermon on the Kingdom of God, look at this other passage which corroborates this clear teaching without ambiguity:
(the immediately prior context is forgiving one's brother -- the unmerciful servant)
*_Matthew _**_18:33_**_-35_*
" *'Should you not have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?'* _In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed._ *_That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you, unless you forgive your brother from your heart_*."
-- *Preliminary introduction to what the teaching concerns (forgive one another as God forgives you).*
-- _Parable to help explain (the reasonable nature of) the teaching (compares an angry master having a servant turned over for failing to forgive as he was forgiven with God demanding that ones sins also be purged, i.e. not forgiving your brother)._
-- *_And finally the spiritual summary of the parable (God demands punishment _until_** you pay back what is due to Him).*_
This is too clear to need explanation, He even explicitly says "That is how My Heavenly Father will treat each of you" in direct reference to His words: "In his anger, his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed".
Only the spiritually blind would deny this. even a 3 year old could extract the meaning of this passage.
But notice an important qualification. This isn't damnation. Because He is only tortured (however metaphorically you take this, it is nonetheless punishment or exaction or purification of some kind) *_until_* the point when satisfaction (full repayment of all that is due) is made.
I'll leave this here and whoever sees it will see, whoever doesn't, I can't force them to.
Amen Chad
And yet even after we are ‘saved’ we are still sinful. Thus, unclean. Does this mean Christ’s saving grace purchased for us on the cross only really takes effect after we die?
Foreign:
The Bible does say we sin after we are saved. But it also says that when we are saved all our sins are forgiven and that God does not count our sins against us.
That does not mean we continue to sin delieberately, Paul speaks about that in Romans 6
The caps are for emphasis only
Romans 8 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn?
Romans 4
5 And to the one who does not work but believes in[a] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 BLESSED IS THE MAN AGAINST WHOM THE LORD WILL NOT COUNT HIS SIN.”
Colossians 2:13-15 (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities[a] and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.[b]
2 Corinthians 5
18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling[c] the world to himself, NOT COUNTING THEIR TRESPASSES AGAINST THEM, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Hebrews 10
10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.12 But when Christ[b] had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 FOR BY A SINGLE OFFERING HE HAS PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME THOSE WHO ARE BEING SANCTIFIED.
15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”
17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”18 WHERE THERE IS FORGIVENESS OF THESE, THERE IS NO LONGER ANY OFFERING FOR SIN.
God Bless
Ave Christus Rex everything you assert is an argument on your stance!! Lol Upper case in this instance and context is for emphasis and clarity ,.. so relax.
Did you know that the Catholic Church is the only Christian Church to teach about going to purgatory ! While all other Christian Churches teach about going to Heaven ! !
Did you know that ! ! !
Not true the Hewush people do in a very similar manner. Also the Catholic Church is the Apostolic Church that has been there from the beginning as still stands. No one else can say that. Your own bible was canonized by the Catholic Church
The Eastern Orthodox believe in Purgatory. Their word for it us "Metanoia". The EOs don't believe Purgatory/Metanoia has painful fire but 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 proves them wrong.
Jesus redeemed us through HIS blood that HE shed on the cross:Ephesians 1:7, 1 Peter 1:18-19, Rev. 5:9. John 14:6 " Jesus saith unto him, I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE: no man cometh unto the Father but by ME. A church or any religious institution can't save men but JesusChrist, the living Son of God. The bible is of spiritual nature and the Holy Spirit is the best teacher and guider to understand ITS meaning.
Using all uppercase letters for every pronoun or key word just makes you come across angry.
Although Jesus *_alone_* saves us (agency of slavation -- source), He has chosen certain means (means of salvation) to _apply_ His salvific merits and graces to us.
For example, if you see a contradiction between jesus saving you and baptism saving you, then you know your exegesis is all wrong. Assuming you believe you 'just believe' He saved you and that's that, then you will see a contradiction. This is because you consider anything that saves _an agent_ of salvation, instead of the obvious -- the means through which salvation is applied and graces granted.
So when you see:
*_1 Peter _**_3:18_**_-21_*
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. *Baptism, which corresponds to this,* *_now saves you_*, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."
If you see a contradiction or heresy in this, you have misconceived Scripture due to your Protestant theology. What this means is that Jesus Christ saved us (only He can, and only He has), and yet how He applies His salvation is separate from His being the source thereof. So when we say baptism saves you, we mean this is how God applies His saving grace normatively and initially to the Christian person and removing the stain of original sin and applying salvific grace to that person. _But it is still Christ saving through it_.
As for Sola Scriptura, well, it's literally the easiest Protestant doctrine to disprove. And one can do this by merely acknowledging 1) how many Protestant sects or denominations hold to Sola Scriptura, and 2) how many major doctrinal differences there are between them.
It really is as simple as that.
Libera Nos Domine As a Protestant, I struggle to find a contradiction or heresy in that passage. Believe me, I tried. And just to note, literally none of the verses you posted prove nor lend support to the doctrine we can go to a prison of torment after death even if we are redeemed by Jesus Christ(born-again). "This is how my Heavenly Father will treat you"...yes, but did that even begin to say that if you do not forgive you will be punished after death? Nope, you assume the Heavenly Father can't treat you a certain way even before death. That is a unfounded leap to that conclusion of purgatory existing.
Where in the bible do you find the word purgatory that was INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit to the Prophets, and Apostles that wrote the holy scriptures?
I Corinthians 3:13-15 is clear----Purgatory exists.
Thanks Tim Staples. You speak for the Truth that has been there for the last 2000+ years.
Amen!
Floro Salvador so you are asserting that the doctrine or dogma of purgatory has been existence for 2000 years like the Catholic Church???? You just can’t be serious?
Ty Shiroma We are very serious!! If it is in the Bible then it has been believed since the beginning. Tim gave scriptural evidence of the existence of a place where we purge our sins before entering to Heaven because “only the PURE of heart will see God” (Mt. 5, 8)
@@atgred you don't understand the gospel. this is why you're saying this. The text does not say "we purge our sins", you're adding to the text. It is the work that went through the fire NOT THE Person(IT not He will be revealed with fire and the fire will test the quality of each person's WORK. the person is already saved (if what has been built survives, the builder (the Person) will receive a Reward. look at verses 15, if IT is burned (NOT if he is burned), the builder (the person) will suffer loss(what is that? it is the reward) but yet will be saved - even though only as one escaping through the flames. Nothing here, about purging for your sins before going to heaven But the Person is saved even his work suffer loss. The Text is about reward not purgatory. It is an invention based on a false view of the Gospel. The Roman Catholic cannot perfect a sinner for heaven because it is a no gospel at all like Paul said in Galatians But the True Gospel purifies and saved to the uttermost. Jesus Christ dies once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteousness to bring us to God.What causes a person to be justified in the sight of God is not what you do but what Jesus did for you. the bible says: The heart of men is deceitful above all things who can know it. Jesus taught about the condition of men' heart: murder, thief, adultery etc..This is the God sees everybody. Therefore, none can please God with his own work(Romans 8), none can do good(Romans 3). So Jesus died so that He can fulfill the requirement of the law in our behalf perfectly. by Faith alone, not by works done in the flesh, we can have peace with God when God imputes his righteousness (Jesus is the righteousness)to us and also exchange, we give Jesus our sins (1 Corinthians 5:21).This is how we've made pure before God. When look at us He sees Jesus Christ and look at Christ he sees us. Read Isaiah 6, to see how Isaiah was made clean (by the atonement in heaven for his sins).Again, this is how we've made pure before God. When you understand the gospel, you will never need purgatory because Jesus saved to the uttermost, once for all for his people.
James White completely destroyed Tim Staples!
Maximiano Xavier he couldn't destroy anybody. Do you die perfectly?
James indeed rinsed Staples in this debate. Its just not there in the text 🤷
good work Tim :)
The more I listen to Dr White the more I think he just likes to argue.
Purgatory is a dumb concept. Why even mention it? It’s not efficacious for salvation and they can’t state that it’s anything other than judgement so why not just call it judgement?
Brent Stewart, read 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 and you will see that Purgatory does indeed exist.
@@georgepenton808 Have you asked Jews what they think about Hell?, it is a kind of Purgatory, then the concept existed 2000 years ago.
It’s important because purgatory is a fundamental denial of the gospel.
@@georgepenton808that’s just not about purgatory at all. It’s all about works. No language at all about purgatory or the process of it. You’re reading into the text what you want it to say.
I`m catholic and I firmely believe in purgatory, i totally agree with that dogma, it's bvious that while we are saved we are not totally pure to enter heaven, but Im not sure 1 Corinthians 3 is talking about purgatory, because purgatory is not to prove anything is just an state of purification for saved people not to try out something
Yes, we need purification before we can enter in heaven, because we are sinners. Even word Trinity we cannot find in the Bible but God both Trinity and Purgatory revealed to us in the Bible.
The trinity is implied in many scriptures: Luke 3;22, John 15:26 and 16:13-14, to name a few. There is no bible scripture that speaks of purgatory at all.
Yes there is , Corinthians 3:15
You are referring to First Corinthians 3:15 right? I think you should begin at verse 10 but please elaborate further on that
To believe in purgatory is to diminish the finnished work of Christ on the Cross. He has carried the penalty of our sins *in full*.
romans 8. Ephesians 2:9 '' I guess no one can trust scripture
The word "purgatory" nor the concept of a "purgatory" isn't mentioned in the God of the Bible's Written Word.
.
Neither are the following words and/or phrases:
(The God of the Bible warns us a few times in His
Word about adding to - and taking from - His Holy
Written Word.)
.
.
hail mary nor praying to mary
rosary nor using or praying using them
Cardinal
pope
"Your Eminence"
Purgatory
Mass
Lent
Prayers for the dead
adoration
veneration
"Holy Father" in reference to any secular man
Bone, flesh, blood. organ collecting
nun
bull
dogma
catechism
catholic
wafer
any secular man forgiving sins
liturgy
palm sunday
ash wednesday
good friday
"christ" - "mass"
Robes, vestments or any other formal church attire
baptism by sprinkling of water
Etc.
.
And before anyone says the word "trinity" isn't found in God's Word either - the CONCEPT is - we refer to Him as 'trio" or "trinity" - or "tres" - but they all mean the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
The word "bible" isn't in His Word either - but when we refer to it as the "Bible", there isn't anyone on the planet who does not know what it is referring to.
.
The word, "atheism" isn't found in God's Word. Yet the Bible says: "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God,'" - See Psalm 14:1
.
The word "divinity" isn't found in God's Word - Yet, we use this term to describe the holiness and godliness of the Almighty Creator. See Psalm 139 and Col. 2:9.
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The word "monotheism" isn't found in God's Word - yet the concept that there is only one God - is. See Isaiah 43:10, 44:8.
.
Bible verses that describe the Trinity:
Matt. 28:1, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
2 Cor. 13:14 "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."
Eph. 4:4- "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."
Jude 20-21 "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."
.
.
The word "purgatory" is a fictional place that the Rcc has made up and is NOT found in God's Written Word.
.
The word "trinity" is used to describe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit - which IS found in God's Written Word - many, many times.
.
.
God says we are not to add to His Word - period. IF we do - He says He will remove our part from the Book of Life. That means those who are found guilty of doing that - wont' be seeing Heaven - so sayeth the God of the Bible.
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.
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All of the items you have listed are either inconsequential ( having no relevance ) or they are basically false
The very first line in this list was false . "Hail Mary " was the greeting the Angel gave to Mary at the annunciation .
You have not even given an accurate account of scripture , an yet you prattle off an insignificant litany of "things that aren't in the bible" .
The catholic position is far more tenable than your's
We believe in purgatory even though the word purgatory is not in the bible
We believe in the Trinity even though the word trinity is not in the bible
YOU SAID :
And before anyone says the word "trinity" isn't found in God's Word either - the CONCEPT is - we refer to Him as 'trio" or "trinity" - or "tres" - but they all mean the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
MY RESPONSE :
You are correct about the concept of the trinity being the bible , but so is purgatory
2 Maccabees 12:46
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.
This utterly destroys the protestant claims that the CONCEPT of purgatory is not mentioned in Bible .
If the dead are judged and to be found in either heaven where they have no sin , or in hell where they have no hope , it would be fruitless too pray for either those in hell or those in heaven
The only thing that makes sense is if there is a state where there are those who have died but still need further purifying before entering heaven .
So 1 CORINTIANS 3:15 does refer to purgatory and it is supported by the book of Maccabees .
Your claim that the RCC made up purgatory is utterly false . The Jews themselves prayed for their dead , just as we still do ; that they may be loosed from their sins
PS . You won't find the book of Maccabees in your protestant bible because your "reformers" didn't want you to read Maccabees . It would seem then that your own "church" has removed books from the canon that prove the catholic position had a Jewish connection . .
Not only IS the concept of purgatory in the bible , but so is the Mass . But I will leave that for another time .
The Written Word of the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob speaks for itself - and stands alone - as the truth.
.
Period.
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I never called you an antichrist, mario - I have said that it is the antichrist/satan who has brought so many different "versions" of God's Word to us - to divide us - to confuse us - and to continue to lead us astray from His Written Word.
PAUL VINCI ...aw, come on now. Don't make 'em wait. They need to know about the mass in the bible, and maybe the other "weird traditions" that we have like lighting incense at church, wearing scapulars, carrying saints medals in our pocketbooks, lighting candles, etc., but then again, it'll probably make their heads spin. But the protestants can at least thank the Catholic Church for putting the bible together! I heard they said it came down from the sky! (hahaha!) Now I have to go to confession!
The word Bible is not mentioned in the Holy Scriptures either, yet Purgatory is a Divine reality, as we shall each be held accountable for every careless word we have uttered and shall each be judged as we have judged others, (Matthew 12:36, Luke 6:37,38), yet, by our love for others, we can cover a multitude of our sins, (1 Peter 4:8, Proverbs 16:6, Daniel 4:27, James 5:20), as Jesus Christ, our great and kind God and savior teaches, "Give alms and all shall be clean within" (Luke 11:41), as we must all strive for that holiness without which no one shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14). God bless you!
Like just about every dogma in the RCC, Rome had had to really dig deep in their minds of imagination to justify those said dogmas by reading into scripture that which isn't there; or even worse, making them up out of nowhere. Catholics, spare the replies, I was raised Catholic, having taken 5 of the 7 "sacraments", barring holy orders and last rites. I'm well aware what and why you believe what you do... it all comes down to sola ecclesia. Works for the Mormons, JWs, Scientologists too.
1 Corinthians 3:13-15 is as clear as a bell----Purgatory exists.
Great job Tim
Where was he great? I particularly thought the ham. Ignoring James on key issues of fire was particularly interesting so definitely a good job Tim.
The parable of Lazarus and the Rich man. The rich man is in the fire and can see Lazarus In Abrahams bosom. There is beatific vision because the Rich Man sees Lazarus in Abrahams bosom. There is no beatific vision in Gehena Hell Fire. The Rich Man in purgatory because he had beatific vision and also the rich man ask Lazarus for prayer. Prayer for soul purgatory helps a soul get out of purgatory to heaven. There is no beatific vision in hell because it is cut off from heaven and a prayer is not useful for someone in hell Gehena.
Yes Tim Catholic Church got the fullness of Truth. Half truth half lie still a lie.
The imprison spirits in the book of Peter where taken up to heaven by Jesus. That place not Gehena Hell because Hell in permanent. It is Purgatory where Jesus preach
Tim is doing a good job on cherry-picking
welcome to the 17th century...
Good job Tim! James didn't stand a chance against the Truth!
jessie neace ...lol...get over another tragic loss to Mr White. He is just too good presenting THE TRUTH!!!! Lol
There is a long list of Catholic Apologist that have been shredded by Dr White!!!! Good try Tim!!!!
Ty Shiroma he would get destroyed by Bro peter Dimond, he refused to debate him
Excellent job as always Tim Staples. Another victorious debate against James White!
Amen!
+Tim Spangler That could be the most apt simile I've ever seen.
Poor James White. I gotta give him props. He's scrappy and tenacious. He often thinks he's won when in fact he didn't. Even his sister became Catholic. That must have been rough on him.
+Mark Rome Are you serious! ? Did his sister really get on Peters Barque? ? if so praise God! can you by chance provide me with a link or source for that? Thanks in advance
And here is James White writing about it on his own website. vintage.aomin.org/Luke1251.html
James White is clearly a hater of common sense truth. Why must Protestants try to read between the lines and redefine what was already defined by the Apostles and early Fathers of the Church? The Bible is clear about these rebellious People. 2 Peter 3:16-17 (RSVCE)16 speaking of this[a] as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.
+Alison Torres The text in 2 Peter that is difficult to understand has nothing to do with purgatory, but justification by faith. That is Paul´s main theme throughout his letters, and the legalists couldn´t understand that concept: how God saves us through grace, by means of faith, which produces good works and freedom.
myfight22, You problem is you don't accept the Authority Jesus clearly speaks of in scripture. Consider these passages. That is why scripture is clear, Jesus tells the People to obey the Pharisees because they hold the set of Moses. From the very Mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ. Matthew 23(NRSVCE)
Jesus Denounces Scribes and Pharisees
23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 therefore, do whatever they teach you and follow it. As you can see Nuno Jesus stressed in verse 3 to obey the Priest hood and to do what they tell you. This is a direct command from our God Jesus Christ. So where did Jesus Acknowledged he had the authority of the seat of Moses and passed it on to the Apostles? in this passage, John 20:21- 23 New(NRSVCE)
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” Nuno Jesus clearly Says He had the authority and gave it to the Apostles or in this passage where Jesus appoints a leader for his Church on earth Peter. Matthew 16:17-19 (NRSVCE)
17 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” or in Luke 22:31-32(NRSVCE)
31 “Simon, Simon, listen! Satan has demanded[a] to sift all of you like wheat, 32 but I have prayed for you that your own faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.” also John 21:17(NRSVCE)
17 He said to him the third time, “Simon son of John, do you love me?” Peter felt hurt because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep. If these passages aren't clear enough on the Authority of Peter as the Leader Then this Passage hands down should make it all clear for you. Acts 15:6-7(NRSVCE)
6 The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “My brothers,[a] you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that I should be the one through whom the Gentiles would hear the message of the good news and become believers. It doesn't get any clearer then this last Passage Nuno that Jesus left a teaching authority 2000 Years ago that have the Authority to speak in his name and that all The Multitude must listen to and obey. Since History proves the Bible is a Catholic Book that all Protestant have adapted as there own. there really is no other Logical conclusion that when Jesus said things like, John 16:13 (NRSVCE)
13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. or, John 14:26 (NRSVCE)
26 But the Advocate,[a] the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and remind you of all that I have said to you. or, Luke 10:16 (NRSVCE)
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me, and whoever rejects you rejects me, and whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.” Jesus clearly speaks of a Church in this passage that has the authority and truth. 1 Timothy 3:15 (NRSVCE)
15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Jesus is most clear in this last Passage that we must obey his teaching authority and that he would be with that Church till the end of time. Matthew 28:20 (NRSVCE)
20 and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”[a] Nuno Resendes, Gabe Melo, and all that read this that are not Catholic, I tell you this out of true Charity, Jesus revealed to me the truth Supernaturally as i was also going the Protestant rout and Jesus showed me the truth in the Catholic Church don't ask me why he had mercy on me as i will only know when i come before my Lord but the truth is blatantly clear in the Bible if one is truly honest with themselves they could only come to one conclusion and that is that all roads lead to Rome. Don't fall for the false slander lies and attack on the one Church of Christ and that is a true testament that it is the true Church of Christ . God Bless.
+myfight22 from hebrew words purgatory is purification of your soul....need to purify your sins to forgiven in the second ressurrection...
Why must Roman Catholics hail Mary? God shares his glory with no one.
The Roman Catholic Church promises people freedom but they themselves are slaves of sin. I think they are a type of those whom it is written about that "deny the master that bought them" they do this through their doctrine of Mary, their doctrine of the mass, and their doctrine of purgatory. These are damnable heresies. It was prophesied by the apostles that this was to happen, and I think Jesus likewise talks about them in Matthew Chapter 7. The doctrine of Mary rejects the blood of Jesus Christ that gives us bold access to the Father and the throne of grace leaving no need to pray to Mary who by the way is a creature not the Creator and she is with the Lord and unable to hear prayers because she is a creature not God. The doctrine of purgatory gives people excitement "it pleases their itching ears" as the language is described in the scriptures because it gives them liberty in their mind to choose to sin. The doctrine of the mass insults the propitiation that Jesus provided on the cross which is a once and for all propitiation as it is written in the book of Hebrews. Indubitably the Roman Catholic Church is a perverse Institution and is not a church anymore they ceased to be a church centuries ago. This is why the Lord commands everyone to live by the word of God. The Roman Catholic Church prevented people from receiving the scripture in their common language so that they could dominate people and control them and use them. This is why Christ says many will say on that day did we not do this or that and he will tell them plainly I never knew you because they did not do the will of the Father which was to believe upon Jesus Christ. These all trusted in their works not in the work of Christ. Thank you James for exposing the darkness of this doctrine in such a classy way perhaps your opponent may receive the knowledge of Jesus Christ through your loving kindness towards him.
"He himself shall be saved yet so as by fire" Tim is so much different of your position "He himself will go through fire".
Saved by fire He will not go through fire is so easy to understand!
Catholics really cannot understand throughly the Bible for they are unsaved, not having the Holy Spirit. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14.
10000000%. purgatory is an idea that evolved from limbo before 1000ad and was later transformed into purgatory as the church progressed. It’s also an example of how reading without the Holy Spirit allows the unbelieving mind to construct fabrications around the idea of salvation. Salvation is Christ alone in faith alone, but faith itself is not alone. The dividing line between the idea of supporting purgatory versus everything resting on the sun is that in Catholicism it’s Jesus plus you and in scripture alone it’s all Jesus. Works are a part of the salvific life, but only in response not in conjunction. If works were required to purify us, then the cross means nothing. He who became sin, who knew no sin allows us to become righteousness through him not by us doing things, but by us having faith in him. If we thrive on fleshly efforts, we’re required to measure up then this would make the Torah, a liar, because it clearly states in Isaiah, that the works of our own righteousness are as filthy rags in the eyes of God.
Our works are in response to our salvation. They validate the validity and certainty of our salvation because they exist. But they do not sustain salvation. I believe I can do the bare bottom minimum and ignore the Holy Spirit and still be saved yet as Through Fire as first Corinthians states.
If you were a child of God, you will not be lost by your own simple actions, instead, you will be chastised and molded and disciplined by God, as stated in Hebrews 12:5. To say that our own works could invalidate salvation? No one stands a chance. Sin is paid for on the cross. All sin, including murder, and lying and deceitfulness and rape and everything. The hiccup the Catholics get caught up in is the thinking that a protestant believes that a believer can become a believer and go murder. Yes they can because David did, and he was still a believer. In the Psalms, he never once ask God to restore his salvation, but rather to restore the joy of his salvation. No also remember that a true believer in Christ is very very unlikely to commit major perceived defined mortal sins. But if they do, they have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ.
If there is no Purgatory we will all go to hell Gehena. Because Purgatory is Gods Grace and the book of revelation it says nothing impure enters heaven. If that is so and there is no Purgatory to purify impure then we go to hell.
For Christians, the grace and mercy and the finished work of Christ is only their hope to heaven thats what their bible say and thats what they beleive.
For you(catholics) you're seemingly imply that ''for you'', no purgatory, no one enters heaven. For Christians, no Christ, no one can enter heaven.
Tim is absolutely wrong in 1Cor 3, its far from the truth. If there is such a place, Jesus and the rest of the Apostles will clearly describe it in several verses just like Hell & Heaven. Can you imagine a grave criminal until he died, may still go to heaven by paying masses? If this is true, then hell is not needed. Bcoz it seems the Catholic church decides who go to hell or heaven. Tim really missed the gospel of Christ. I can not imagine a place like purgatory seems a pre-departure area like an airport. Its very funny. What happened to those whom God blinded forever Isaiah 6? Christ is the only way, not the religion way. The catholic church must preach Jesus as the only as what Jesus claimed, not Mary or so called saint.
Alex Trading, do you even understand what Purgatory is?
@@georgepenton808 George purgatory is an idea that evolved from limbo before 1000ad and was later transformed into purgatory as the church progressed. It’s also an example of how reading without the Holy Spirit allows the unbelieving mind to construct fabrications around the idea of salvation. Salvation is Christ alone in faith alone, but faith itself is not alone. The dividing line between the idea of supporting purgatory versus everything resting on the sun is that in Catholicism it’s Jesus plus you and in scripture alone it’s all Jesus. Works are a part of the salvific life, but only in response not in conjunction. If works were required to purify us, then the cross means nothing. He who became sin, who knew no sin allows us to become righteousness through him not by us doing things, but by us having faith in him. If we thrive on fleshly efforts, we’re required to measure up then this would make the Torah, a liar, because it clearly states in Isaiah, that the works of our own righteousness are as filthy rags in the eyes of God.
Our works are in response to our salvation. They validate the validity and certainty of our salvation because they exist. But they do not sustain salvation. I believe I can do the bare bottom minimum and ignore the Holy Spirit and still be saved yet as Through Fire as first Corinthians states.
If you were a child of God, you will not be lost by your own simple actions, instead, you will be chastised and molded and disciplined by God, as stated in Hebrews 12:5. To say that our own works could invalidate salvation? No one stands a chance. Sin is paid for on the cross. All sin, including murder, and lying and deceitfulness and rape and everything. The hiccup the Catholics get caught up in is the thinking that a protestant believes that a believer can become a believer and go murder. Yes they can because David did, and he was still a believer. In the Psalms, he never once ask God to restore his salvation, but rather to restore the joy of his salvation. No also remember that a true believer in Christ is very very unlikely to commit major perceived defined mortal sins. But if they do, they have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ.
Catholic answers is afraid of nothing, who write this nonsense?
Afraid of nothing because they think their cherry-picking is not going to be noticed by the audience and Catholics will just ignore it
Daniel 12:2 No purgatory Catholic invention.
Thank you MR Staples!!!
James White is hard headed and is extremely arrogant...considering that his sister converted to Catholicism.......but that is none of my business.....
That has nothing to do whether his arguements are biblical or not.
wow all these deceived catholics in the thread. NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE IS THE CONCEPT OF PURGATORY FOUND!!! 1 CORINTHIANS 3 IS ABOUT THE WORKS COMING THROUGH THE FIRE, NOT THE PERSON!!!
Actually, the verse states the person is saved, only as through fire. The works get consumed in the fire, the person in the fire does not, as we must all strive for that holiness without which no one shall see the Lord, (Hebrews 12:14), as we shall each be held accountable for every careless word we have uttered, and shall each be judged as we judged others. (Matthew 12:36, Luke 6:37,38). Yet, vy our love for others, we can cover a multitude of our sins, (1 Peter 4:8, Proverbs 16:6, Daniel 4:27, James 5:20), as Jesus Christ, our great and kind God and savior teaches, "Give alms and all shall be clean within", (Luke 11:41). God bless you!
@@matthewbroderick8756 purgatory is an idea that evolved from limbo before 1000ad and was later transformed into purgatory as the church progressed. It’s also an example of how reading without the Holy Spirit allows the unbelieving mind to construct fabrications around the idea of salvation. Salvation is Christ alone in faith alone, but faith itself is not alone. The dividing line between the idea of supporting purgatory versus everything resting on the sun is that in Catholicism it’s Jesus plus you and in scripture alone it’s all Jesus. Works are a part of the salvific life, but only in response not in conjunction. If works were required to purify us, then the cross means nothing. He who became sin, who knew no sin allows us to become righteousness through him not by us doing things, but by us having faith in him. If we thrive on fleshly efforts, we’re required to measure up then this would make the Torah, a liar, because it clearly states in Isaiah, that the works of our own righteousness are as filthy rags in the eyes of God.
Our works are in response to our salvation. They validate the validity and certainty of our salvation because they exist. But they do not sustain salvation. I believe I can do the bare bottom minimum and ignore the Holy Spirit and still be saved yet as Through Fire as first Corinthians states.
If you were a child of God, you will not be lost by your own simple actions, instead, you will be chastised and molded and disciplined by God, as stated in Hebrews 12:5. To say that our own works could invalidate salvation? No one stands a chance. Sin is paid for on the cross. All sin, including murder, and lying and deceitfulness and rape and everything. The hiccup the Catholics get caught up in is the thinking that a protestant believes that a believer can become a believer and go murder. Yes they can because David did, and he was still a believer. In the Psalms, he never once ask God to restore his salvation, but rather to restore the joy of his salvation. No also remember that a true believer in Christ is very very unlikely to commit major perceived defined mortal sins. But if they do, they have an advocate with the father, Jesus Christ.
james white is just a Catholic basher
Dr. White is a man that speaks the truth of the bible. His knowledge of scripture is a blessing.
wrong.
There's absolutely wrong with Dr. White at all. If you don't like God's truth, then let yourself be.
I agree with you there's absolutely wrong with dr. white.
agreed, absolute wrong