Watched it live. Could not believe how poorly White argued his position. Basically was “these unofficial Catholic sources say XYZ about Purgatory, and that’s ridiculous! Therefore, Purgatory is false.” It was essentially an argument from incredulity, and Trent was right to point out that “my opponent should be using official teachings, not some individual’s speculative theology.”
I feel that for several years he has been grasping at the wind trying to disprove the Catholic Church. God please take down his pride and bring him to the truth.
@@dandersen464 Idk how accurate this is so take it with a grain of salt. But from what I understand James’ whites father was a baptist pastor who had allegations of abuse; either sexual or that he was stealing (I’ve heard both from different sources, again take it with a grain of salt) And his sister left their church when she was an adult and became a catholic and she basically said whatever allegations against their father were true. This obviously would have caused a great deal of shame for White; but he has levied those negative feelings against the Catholic Church as a scapegoat.
individual’s speculative theology, literally, that's the entire basis of the five solaes and the framework of protestanstism, "evangelicalsim", reconstructionsim, bible societies, and all other made in-U.S fundamentalist cereal box "christianities".
Hmm, interesting. It is sad when things like that happen. I honestly don’t know if I would have been rooted enough in my faith as a young person to go through that and still pursue Christianity.
@@zacharynelson5731That’s what I heard, too, and I watched an interview with a woman who I assumed was his sister, and she mentioned her brother was a prominent Protestant speaker. Her name is Patty Bonds.
One thing about most of these debates with informed interlocutors. I wish that the question would be asked "why do you think your opponent isn't seeing what you are seeing?" He has the same data as you. Also in the same vein. "You could be wrong what could be preventing you from seeing that?" It just seems like an interesting thought experiment.
Good questions, but somewhat hard to answer. I would guess Trent might identify presuppositions about sanctification and justification that James holds that Trent would argue are flawed, and James would say the same about Trent, perhaps adding that he doesn't believe that Trent honestly reached his presuppositions on his own but because "Rome told him he has to accept them."
No protestant is guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore the amount of data they have amounts to piles of vain information. Conversely, the Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33AD!!!
I converted to Catholic from Protestant. Purgatory makes so much sense to me. It holds me accountable for ongoing sin. Going to confession also holds me accountable. I look at sin way different than I did while I was Protestant. It helps me think twice before engaging in sin again knowing I will be held accountable for every sin I commit especially being Christian who knows right from wrong. I’ve found that everything the Catholic Church teaches has helped me become a better Christian. I have a better prayer life, help from the saints and Mary, universal understanding of scripture and doctrine, more ethnic diversity in the church, respect and reverence during mass (no loud modern music) ancient traditions , the sacramentals , it’s all for Christ’s glory! Nothing they teach has brought me further from Christ , it’s only brought me closer to Christ. My faith feels complete now. I feel like I have a home. It’s a shame so many Protestants call it a false religion and even evil. Without the Catholic Church we would have no Bible or Christianity. All praise to Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23: Says that believers are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, and sanctified.
@@Tacocat123You are 1000% right! There is A WAY which seemeth right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death! Don’t have fools gold and come up short. It’s not by works (although if one is TRULY SAVED good works will be natural because of gratitude) but FAITH ONLY!
I’m Protestant. Somebody needs to check on White, this was a really bad performance. I’m not the biggest fan of White, but the brother needs to actually attend to the topic instead of an almost ad hominem attack against Catholicism. The debate is about purgatory, not the Catholic belief of it. And then acts like Horn was the aggressor. Wow, I’m sorry but this is not a proper or reasonable method of debate.
Go ahead and check on him yourself!! What kind of words can you say for him to listen to? Why does he have to listen to you? What authority do you or anyone have for that matter? Protestants do not have any authority whatsoever Blind leading the blind!!!
@@perazdera2827 do you know what doctrine is? It’s teaching that is handed on. To know Christ is to know what he taught and by extension the Apostles and early Church fathers along with the Church. Lack of understanding scripture and the doctrines is a lack of understanding Christ
@@perazdera2827 Better to seek God than try to think you understand Scripture when you don't. You can quote anything you want but it's you who lacks discernment. Remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck in others.
@@perazdera2827 Jesus didn’t begin a Church? Matthew 16:17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." The Church is the body of believers AND there is a physical structure of the Church with priests, bishops and deacons.
To be fair last June 2023 I had a “near death experience”.I have seen my soul infront of me in shape of blazing fire. When I was in that state, all I felt was regret and questioned myself “what I have done to myself” but at the same time I dont find any reason why I need to go back to this present world. In terms of purgatory, I was in this place that seems like I was lying on a glass and under it was fire. It wasnt painful at all but I am suffering because there was a light, like a tunnel’ infront of me and I know thats where I am supposed to be going but I couldnt go. I am suffering because of my desire to be there but I couldnt. Then I heard the voice of a female voice that I recognized to be Mary and she told me to PRAY! PRAY! PRAY! I was comforted.
Thank you for sharing this. Look into ‘Illumination of Conscience”, aka The Warning. I think it might happen soon. But you are blessed to already have a preview. Let us all PRAY PRAY PRAY as Mama Mary says.
That's crazy talk. You had a dream, that's all. Stop making stuff up. You need to get out more. Socialize, exercise and eat healthy. Sleep enough hours and most importantly seek mental health therapy.
I love that White was the one that chose to debate purgatory (Trent wanted to debate Sola Scriptura) and yet White didn’t even prepare an opening statement.
Trent: "I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory." James: "Here's what Ludwig Ott wrote about purgatory, and he's wrong if you assume Calvinism."
@zacharynelson5731 you and James White are confuse with regards to an individual vs. the church, or you are too lazy to research how doctrines came to be.
Trent: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory” Trent: provides mostly his own (or Akin’s) theological opinion about purgatory. Trent’s supporters: Trent is teaching sound theology that has always been the belief of “the church”. Some future apologists: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about Purgatory (Trent’s opinions….Akin’s opinions) That future apologists supporters: This apologist is teaching sound theology that has always been believed by “the church”.
Yeah, idk. I'm not a catholic but I don't hate you guys. I hear james' bitter attitude, but I also hear that from plenty of catholics. I think that's a human problem, not a denominational one. Eyes on self, not on God.
@briggy4359 Catholicism is not a denomination!!! It is the essence of Christianity , here it is, a clue for you: Acts 2:5-13 Catholic means universal!!!!
So many Protestants (like me when I was one) are adamant that the Bible says nothing about purgatory. Trent does an amazing job in his first couple minutes laying out why that's not the case. Maybe the strongest point, which many didn't catch, is that the word "gehenna" was an actual Jewish image of something almost identical to purgatory. Your Bible probably just says "hell" to translate that word, and maybe it refers to a permanent state at times, but the word used was Gehenna. The book Trent cites is by Simcha Raphael, Jewish Views of the Afterlife, I believe. I spoke with Raphael, a very kind man, and he laid out this very issue for me 2 years ago. He said in Jesus' time, the view of the afterlife was that most went to Gehenna to be purged for a time before going to Gan Eden (heaven). He did say that some saw this as a destruction into ashes or as eternal torment, and, oddly, many of the sources used all three views together, like almost everybody gets out, but some are tormented forever, but as the others leave, the dust and ashes from those who were there permanently were on their sandles. Soon after Christ, the Jewish belief on Gehenna solidified into it being a maximum 12-month process of cleansing, so not even the most evil was there permanently or annihilated. This is why Jews consider it wrong to mourn your parents for more than 11 months, because you'd be dishonoring them by assuming they had the maximum amount of evil to be cleansed. All that to say, if the Bible says Gehenna, rather than just apply your modern understanding of the word, tainted by centuries of various theological opinion, it's important to consider what the word meant to Jesus' audience. They would have heard something much more like purgatory than hell, or maybe a place/state that had potential to be either. So saying "it's not in the Bible" is not true.
Now if you are catholic if you are not orthodox and roman.cathiloc than you are considered to be a heretic based on history. Orthodox real catholic church
@@Fassnight Have you read what the Orthodox objections are? If Protestants read the Orthodox position, I'm pretty sure y'all would just say, "Isn't that the same as purgatory?" Read this objection from St Mark of Ephesus, or find another from that time. Basically, they say yes, many souls need to be cleansed in the after life, but not helped by fire (Catholics no longer insist on a literal fire, so this isn't an issue), and yes, prayers and liturgies can help get them out, but they will be released from eternal fire, not from temporal fire, through these prayers. They use eternal/aionion in more the original Greek sense, to mean cyclical time rather than straight line time, so just because it's eternal doesn't mean it can't end. Reading these early Orthodox objections... I think their views would be considered completely acceptable in the developed doctrine of Catholic purgatory. silouanthompson.net/2019/05/mark-of-ephesus-purgatory/
@@Fassnightwrong my friend, the Orthodox Church holds a doctrine that is similar to the Catholic Church's belief in purgatory, which is a concept of purification after death. The Orthodox Church believes that purity of heart is essential for union with God.
During James White’s “opening statement” me and my fiancé were commentating and were saying how that was just a bitter, poorly constructed rebuttal. Glad Trent pointed this out in his first rebuttal. Also ironic how White said Trent was being unpleasant, considering James is usually very arrogant and unpleasant to listen to.
I agree with all your points about James White. He’s a bitter calvinist. Trent’s arguments all boiled down to basically ‘God needs more time’ and ‘somehow your death + something = perfection’ It’s basically James White’s exact position just with a special non-Biblical made-up name.
@@G1stGBlessTrent never said not catholics believe God need more time. This is absolute falsehood. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
42:36 “Purgatory” by Fr Schouppe does contain the doctrinal teachings on purgatory at the beginning of the book; but the vast majority of the book falls under what Trent was talking about at the beginning of the debate about “speculations” on purgatory; given that what Fr Schouppe uses as sources are stories from the saints which fall under private revelation.
Zachary, Fr Schouppe shares visions by saints and doctors of the church and while they are private revelation they were experienced by heavyweights of our faith. They cannot be blithely dismissed as mere "speculations." St. Faustina also visited Purgatory. But the trump card is Mary's revelations about Purgatory at Fatima, such as a person who will be there until the end of the world.
I wear the brown scapular and was surprised when White brought that up in his closing statement. The thing White said about the brown scapular and his assumption on the reasons why Catholic wearing are to me, almost identical to the way an atheist judge Christianity on things he completely misunderstood. Turns out, he is well informed with knowledge but completely lack the understanding of the essence. Seems like that exactly the case with our protestant friends.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 The scapulars (all, not just the brown) are small versions of a specific religious orders habit. The brown scapular is the small version of the Carmelite habit. The Carmelite order and spirituality were very popular during the middle ages so I believe this is the reason it is so popular. Not to mention its generally just seen as a great devotion to Mary. The origin of the Scapular is said to have been given to St. Simon Stock by the Virgin Mary, however I don't think this is true and seems to be mostly fabricated. Regardless the Sabbatine privilege is not true *in and of itself*. Wearing the scapular and saying the rosary every day won't save you. But it will definitely help us get closer to God, which brings us closer to Heaven.
Pope Francis quote: "All religions are paths to reach God. I will use an analogy, they are like different languages that express the divine". ...please explain
I thought it was interesting when James White said, "that's a cheap shot and you know it and everybody in the room knows it!" It's interesting because James does the same thing quite often, just watch any of his debates and you'll find this tactic being employed, I kinda feel like it would be hard to find a debate from anyone where this doesn't happen, it's in my opinion just a fun, lighthearted way of poking at your opponent. Maybe James White didn't like it because he read Mark Twain say, "There's more truth in jest!!" Great debate Trent I thought you're opening statement was awesome, thanks and God bless you
Trent was correct when he pointed out that White didn’t make an opening statement. A test for this is that if you edited the video and switched the order would it be coherent? In whites case no it wouldn’t. Also, what’s funny is I believe in both a debate with Bart Ehrman many years ago and another debate with a Muslim apologist Both Ehrman and the Muslim did the same thing; where they went second but gave a rebuttal instead of an opening statement. And White called them out on it both times.
I have never heard White bring up personal issues of someone's family, and then use it as a debate cheap shot. You should be ashamed for lying. Repent.
I've struggled previously with a defense for purgatory, perhaps because I did not comprehend fully myself. This is the clearest description and defense of purgatory that I've seen. Great job Trent!
Everyone sins even after becoming Christian. This problem needs addressing at the end of the day. Catholics came up with the concept of purgatory to have the final cleansing of imperfection of a person. Since, protestants rejects this idea, they have to come up with the concept with the doctrine of imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is simple, for protestants : Jesus Christ, you took upon yourself my sins on the cross and therefore we must exchange my sins with your righteousness by default.
This might be a clear presentation but it is a faulty one. He uses a brand new and unique theory of the interpretation of the Corinthian passage that is clearly not correct, neither Protestants nor Catholic scholars interpret that passage that way today or have so in the past. We would have never known that fact if not for the cross examination. I have watched Trent debate numerous times and he does this over and over. As a debater, Trent is one of the best I have seen, very smooth and convincing but he hides unique and one of a kind interpretations all the time.
The power of the confessional is for the priests authority over the laity. Catholics have a insufferable sense of guilt throughout their journey. Luther was so obsessive about his sins,he was without any insurance regarding his sins were forgiven.
No, he didn't. The dumbest debate ever undertaken by someone that calls themselves a Christian is that the bible, which is the Word of God, God breathed by the third Person of the Godhead, is NOT THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY IN MATTERS OF DOCTRINE AND SALVATION. Did I miss something? Is there another Word of God in the world?
As a protestant, there a lot of catholic doctrines that I can't quite accept but, judging by the comment section and by Trent's opening I think I can look forward to one of them getting knocked of the list today.
@@maciejpieczula631 I'm not sure. I've gone from previously scoffing at the idea to thinking that it could definitely be a thing. I don't think I'll ever believe in indulgences or even a temporal aspect but I've definitely broadened my perspective.
@@josepharballo601 For one thing, "today" might not be literal: some translations of Acts 2:31 seem to indicate that Jesus spent the three days in hell and it would defeat the purpose of such sacrifice for Him to also be in heaven with the thief on that specific day. For another, assuming what Trent said is correct about purgatory being simply a purification process between death and heaven (and necessarily a physical place), the process could take literally no time at all.
@@theskyisteal8346 "Jesus spent the three days in hell " Keep in mind, any part of the day was considered a "day." Peter is clear regarding Jesus and where he went. *18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,* 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3) Strongs Greek 3857 for reference paradeisos: a park, a garden, a paradise Original Word: παράδεισος, ου, ὁ Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine Transliteration: paradeisos Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-sos) Usage: Paradise. 3.*that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f.* But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise.
White saying that theologians today use different words of phrasings to describe a particular doctrine than how a theologian 50, 100, or 1000 years ago, therefore the doctrine is “changing” and therefore false is a bad argument and pretty ironic. Because I doubt he would accept a Muslim apologist arguing that because the English used in a 1611 translation of the Bible is different than English in common usage today 400 years later is different, it means that the text of the Bible has been “changed” and is therefore false.
@@Garry_Combinetheir first debate was about if a Christian can lost their salvation. Their 2nd debate was about Sola Scriptura (Bible alone) and this video is their third debate about Purgatory.
@@donhaddix3770 Your church is not even in the Bible. I don't need to tell u that Church came first before the Bible was even compiled by the undivided Catholic-Orthodox church. Question is, are u even a real Christian to claim such?
White can consistently interrupt Horn and Horn allows him to finish, but when Trent does that White won’t let horn finish and has to make a dig a horn lol. Trent you won!
I find it Ironic that a calvinists keeps quoting," this is doctrine developed over time." Calvin was in the 1500's. 2000 years after the Crucifixion of Christ.
It's not that hard to understand the protestant position. Let's stop parroting around false narratives about fellow believers in Christ. The reformers purpose was to bring the Church back to the original teachings of the gospel. Remember Luther was excommunicated by the catholic church. Luther's goal was not to create a "new church".
I think James is tired. He has been debating a long time. I’d listen to him for 24 years believed everything he said, just about. I was a Baptist, not a Calvinist, but of course, held several Calvinists’ views. I would listen to every debate multiple times through the years., and believed his version of what Catholics believe, until seven years ago, I studied it myself, and I was confirmed into the Catholic faith Easter of 2024! Praise be to God!! Wish I had found it earlier in my life, but better late than never! The Eucharist is true!🙏🏻❤️ The Catholic Church is the church that Christ set up on this earth and the gates of hell will not prevail against her!🙏🏻❤️ pray for James White!🙏🏻
@@artax7664 , I understand 🙏🏻 that you think that bc of the Protestant “ thought.” We all have to face God with what and where we believe that He has led us. Right??? I traded in James White, J Mac , RC Sproul (may he rest in peace) for St Igantius, St Polycarp, and St Clement ! And they are CLEARLY Catholic ❤️🙏🏻 how could you read their letters and not see that? Maybe you have never read them. If not, I hope you will look them up. Blessings to you.😀❤️🙏🏻
@@artax7664 , oh, and I have His complete redemptive work ❤️I have His Most Precious Body and Blood , Soul and Divinity that I have for my food. (The Passover is the old, The Eucharist is the new) ❤️🙏🏻Bless you.
@@elizabethking5523 it’s not “Protestant thought” that led me to believe anything. I have read them, but I have God’s literal written word to test any idea. Pride keeps us from testing these ideas and trusting fallible men is a mistake. I trust God and God alone. I was an atheist without literally any knowledge of God, doctrine, or theology till I picked up my Bible. I was through the New Testament and partly through the old long before ever hearing any doctrine, or even before attending a church service. The beliefs I have come from learning and studying straight from Jesus and His apostles. God leads us from the different paths we begin on, sure, but are you trying to say that all religions lead to God?
Trent only defended "mere purgatory" and didn't mention all the traditional accretions of the Catholic Church. As a means of sanctification, protestants have no real issue with a final purgation of sin in the final judgment. But James was right to point out that the notion this will be as elaborate or lengthy as Catholics have imagined is nonsense.
James white was awfully unprepared. Talking smack about Pope Francis, Catholic teaching “changing”, and mentioning other theologians opinions. Instead to address the topic using scripture or even admitting some of Trent Horns points might be true. He relies on “cmon folks , you know how Rome operates, you know they invented this” “I have the proper interpretation of the scriptures” “I am better than any past popes, church fathers, or any other theologian” ……yeah White you lost the debate the moment you started it. Good Job Trent for doing his homework and bring a strong and clear case for Purgatory. Even if there still are Protestants out there who won’t change their mind, at least now they can see where The Church is coming from to declare purgatory to be true with Biblical support.
He was even worse in the Sola Scriptura debate. Both his opening statements have been bad Faith attacks. If you watch the end of the last one, he refused to acknowledge Catholics as a Christian Denomination. I'd argue he was unprepared due to arrogance and bad Faith
@@kevinevans8892 I'm not arguing the doctrine, just the debate practices. I also called Trent out on several comments for being too pushy and interrupting.
@@kevinevans8892 I also don't need Rome to tell me it's true, C.S. Lewis came to the conclusion of purgatory with the Protestant Bible. If he can get that without 2 Maccabees, then it's a logical conclusion from Scripture. I have no reason to doubt him or the Church Fathers on the matter since we're going there.
Unprepared? There’s nothing to prepare for. Purgatory is no where in the Bible and in fact James White was actually being nice in not just coming out and destroying Trent with actual Biblical passages.
James reinterpreted Catholic teaching to mean what he believes it to mean, then criticises his interpretation. Just like Protestants do with the Bible.
@@aadschram5877There are fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Anyone who doesn't understand the differences is just ignorant. White's sister doesn't know what she is talking about.
@@gideondavid30 Protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary and statues. Protestants claiming Catholics worship the Pope. There are plenty more strawman arguments like this which the Catholic church does not actually teach but pretended by Prots through misinterpreting Catholic positions based on their own confusion.
Every night I pray for both Trent Horn and James White, by name. I thank God for Mr Horn and ask God to bless him with continued success in his apologetics. I ask God every night to enlighten Mr White and to bring him into the Church.
@@ninamaelabiste5557I read the Bible every day. I am convinced that the teaching authority of the Church is in scripture. Likewise, I am convinced that the doctrine of purgatory is true.
If people opened their eyes to see how much blessings God is giving to all of us, i would say especially Catholics, in confessions, eucharist adoration, and all in all in relationship with him.. they wouldn't dare to hate so strong
So true, I say this all the time to friends and coworkers. If they just knew the beauty and the attitude in our sacraments and traditions, they wouldn’t hate and instead turn to it in awe.
Sam shamoun said that if Trent wins this debate, he’s a rock star! He’s never seen anyone dismantle james white like trent did on the sola scrip debate! I have to agree with sam, excellent performance!
@@gideondavid30 Ok main take aways: Trent got white to admit, sola scriptura wasnt the rule for the church and wasnt possible until after the 4th century when scripture was complete. He refused to give a date for when the church started using it. Later in the q&a, hes asked: when did the traditions of the catholic church start as an authority for the church. He said “2nd century desert fathers!” What an admission! So in Dr. whites own view, catholic traditions are older than sola scriptura but at least 300 years! Again, he couldnt provide a date so that 300 years is as generous as he is being towards his own beliefs! White wanted trent to name some other infallible rule. He immediately said the canon and James had zero defense. James White is a bible scholar that refuses to credit any of the men that assembled the canon as if was an easy task. He refused to give dates, he got stumped on the canon, and tried to bait trent into defending the papacy over half a dozen times!
@@timboslice980 1. O.K. I need a time stamp for when James White admitted that sola scriptura wasn't the rule of faith for the early church. Please provide context to the admission as well. I am fairly certain that Jame's position is that scripture was in oral form first. That doesn't disprove sola scriptura though. This goes to the question of infallibility and what the early church relied on. 2. traditions of the Catholic Church. I need a time stamp. Provide it for me with context. James White's position on tradition is whether it can be proven to be traced to the 1st century or not. 3. How is the canon "some other infallible rule"? The formal of the canon has nothing to do with the debate between sola scriptura and sola ecclesia you do realize this right? 4. You're mistaken. James White does give credit to those who formed the canon, what he doesn't agree with is the notion of church infallibility. Of course the pope is going to be brought up because the entire Roman Catholic faith is built upon that office. All the unique Catholic doctrines found no where in scripture are ushered in through Papal infallibility.
So the other day, a Protestant preacher was talking about premarital sex. He was trying to tell the crowd not to worry or feel guilty if that was a sin they committed because they were forgiven if they asked Jesus to forgive them. But then he also went on to explain the emotional consequences of having premarital sex without commitment and the pain that comes after a breakup and the issues you have to deal with in future relationships due to your past sins. He was giving an argument for purgatory. Of course, you can be forgiven in Christ, but sin has temporal consequences.
@@johnnotrealname8168 We should definitely feel guilt to some degree, but we can be washed of that guilt because of Jesus; namely, through the sacrament of reconciliation AKA confession
Obviously in some sense we accept God..created black holes with docility. We won't demand evidence how it came to exist , evidence from God. But this is different. I reject purgatory. As I reject the rapture. Because there in my ignorance I cannot see evidence for both. But recently I've heard of "bi location" which I guess God allows souls from purgatory to manifest or God manifests them on earth in the human world. So yeah but they could come from hell or heaven. So I still reject purgatory. But if it's truth that Christ preached or his word preaches then I'll accept purgatory. Of course I want to know does this place exist regardless wether I personally view it or never view it? Yes it does as does God. But I certainly do yearn to accept it I just can't do so with docility. However Mr.wjife would definitely fail not "convincing me" only Providing evidence so I can pour time into believing it as to praying for God to show me it's true.
Is the Bible not the word of God? Is Jesus Chris is a liar? You are not a Christian if you believe in Catholic rituals and historical beliefs over the word of God. Luke 23:33-43 (LSB): The Crucifixion 33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left. 34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” AND THEY CAST LOTS, DIVIDING UP HIS GARMENTS AMONG THEMSELVES. 35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were scoffing at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.” 36 And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!” 38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.” 39 And one of the criminals hanging there was blaspheming Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!” 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for what we have done; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
I actually was very confused. I am a former Catholic. Always heard Purgatory the way White explained it, and was confused by Trents take. Also Matthew 5 has nothing about purgatory.
@chanano1689 as a recovering Catholic, I can confirm the Bible does not mention Purgatory or Catholics anywhere. Those were terms made by man, hundreds of years after Christ's death!
@@Sola_Scriptura_1.618I agree. I think the Scriptures that were used by Trent where extremely weak, and no where else in Scripture will we use the same mode of interpretation. I think they are just coping at this moment.
Great job, Trent! After my heart attack (and as a practicing, devout, cradle Catholic), I decided to learn much more deeply about my faith. You have REALLY helped me in my depth of knowledge and this closer to God!
James White is not unprepared( double negative), he just cannot find a good argument against the topic. Plus James White's parrot-ish style, speaking without knowing what he talks about very apparent here. In this debate I see white as a fireworks display, while Trent a firing range.
@@echomike8591 I have a perfect argument. Purgatory is impossible if the resurrection of the Saints is true. If all past and present believers are to take part in the resurrection of the Saints " Which happens to everyone who belongs to Christ" , then in no fashion can purgatory be true. It's a logistical impossibility. What really nails the coffin lid shut on purgatory is what happens to those alive in Christ on that day. They are changed in a blink of an eye and gathered to the Lord with the rest of their brothers and sisters. Wait!? Were they not also supposed to go through a purgatory? Kinda strange that no one is serving any type of sentence in that situation isn't it? And it being taught that all purgatory sentences are different sure as heck makes this impossible. Just a thought I have never heard anyone bring up.
@bairfreedom modern day catholics acknowledge Purgatory can happen in a blink of an eye and is event rather than a place. So no it doesn't work plus there is lot of scripture not talked about here that points to purgatory
this was very telling, james white argued everything but the actual statement being argued over James white never actually rebutted anything trent said, never proposed an argument all he did was dodge topics and hand wave
A good friend of mine, evangelical for 26 years, recently became catholic after getting her masters in theology at a Baptist college. She was deeply disappointed in the shallow and contradictory theology she encountered there. She started her degree as a Protestant and graduated a catholic.
@@amysill3815 Maybe just maybe that was yet another of those liberal theological colleges that fails to deliver on the claims they make from the outset? As a former Irish RC (now evangelical) I feel sorry for your friend having crossed over to that side. You can have all of the religion you want in that camp but little of the real Christ and fulfilment that I found elsewhere. And for that, I am eternally grateful to my heavenly Father for my spiritual eyes having been opened.
@amysill3815 John Henry Newman, an anglican minister, vitriolic enemy of the Catholic church studied the catholic "falsehood" , converted to it, became a priest and cardinal an ended up a canonized Saint in 2019 by the church he had formerly hated with all his heart!!!!!
I ask this seriously; Is James OK? He seems really frazzled and irritated. I thought Trent was very charitable, but James seemed ready to fight and his arguments were all over the place. I usually like listening to James White in these debates, but this felt like he was very off.
I think he decided long ago that he does not want purgatory to be true, so therefore he will not accept any argument for its reality. Therefore he was very unprepared for when he came into this debate.
I picked up the same that James is frazzled. Also check his ears turning red… Trent however is very composed. Holds good argument. We also have to accept if a Protestant accept that there is purgatory obliterates sola scriptura argument.
You apparently watched the wrong debate 😂... Trent was the one who was irritated and nasty. Trent even admitted this... Next time, lay off the booze before tou comment
@@corydittman4639 Cory, no Christian today is free of following tradition. We are all handed down the tradition we know. Every denomination is a "tradition" of interpretation and authoritative teaching. Protestantism did not solve this problem. The question is is the tradition a Sacred one passed down to us by Jesus. Here's a question - where is the commandment in the Bible that says that if you disagree with the Church you can start a new one? When the Bible clearly states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
@@PatrickSteil There is no CHURCH as you are trying to use the word. Christ wrote to CHURCHES. Paul and Peter visited Churches. Church is the body of Christ. RCC is not part of it.
I do think that White has a point that we should not shy away from Ott and Denzinger. Simply saying they aren’t the Catechism doesn’t mean they aren’t two preeminent resources for Catholic teaching. We should be defending them in a debate and not retreating from them. That said, Trent did a good job in the debate and I think made a convincing argument.
You did hear a real debate. White undermined the essential doctrine of purgatory from the get go. Either you didn’t understand the argument or purgatory. White made him admit he was interpreting the Corinthian passage in a unique way (neither Protestant or Catholic scholars interpret the passage that way) in order to get biblical proof for his stance. The other passages cited by Horn didn’t support purgatory,.
@TJMcCarty 👆 Being a smooth-talker OR being a hostile, arrogant attacker-debater proves what ? Catechism is a poor, inaccurate replacement for Scripture. There’s no good reason at all for GOD’s Living to be replaced. None. Faulty source (catechism) leads to faulty belief (purgatory) of a faulty religion (catholicism). This debate isn’t a Sports competition. The only “winner” is anyone who “gets” GOD’s truth. The only “loser” is anyone who is lost without truth. Holy Spirit, spirit of truth & wisdom is needed to discern. Seek Truth. Truth = Christ. Seek Christ. ⚔️ Truth v Deception = Spiritual War⚔️ “Watch out no one deceives you. For many will come in my name claiming ‘I am the Christ’ and will deceive many.”
Trent even went out of his way to specify that he was arguing the basics of purgation that even some Protestants believe but James can't help but pull the "Catholic bad" card.
I noticed this pattern when I was becoming a catholic. If you filter out the ad hominem and genetic fallacies from Protestant arguments; what usually remains has very little actual substance
If James White can't be bothered to create slides presenting his own argument in a cogent manner, how much time and consideration do you really think he gave to his argument rather than being an anti-Catholic reactionary?
@@gideondavid30Then there's no excuse for not being prepared. If he's been doing it for years he would have everything he needs and instead looks like an unprepared high school student with no material.
@david30 it's not about "doing this for years"; because so has Trent Horn lol. And it's not about knowing his arguments, it's about presenting it with visualization for his audience. He just didn't show consideration like @p.doetsch6209 said.
How often do high level debates include slides? Just because Trent did something that you prefer doesn’t mean White was lazy. Slides are not common in formal debate.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303The slides are symbolic. His entire presentation was lacking in coherency and substance. The slides were the least of it but demonstrate his lack of understanding for theological and technological preparedness.
This is actually hilarious. Trent has spent the whole debate discussing Purgatory and James White has spent the whole debate talking about everything but Purgatory.
@@mattduin7144 like….the reasons he believes purgatory doesn’t exist…? I’m just confused how someone can make a positive argument about something they don’t believe in.
I'm genuinely surprised at how bad James White is at debating. It's like he doesn't do any preparation at all and only has a surface level understanding of the topic.
Seems like White just says many words, speaking in circles, adding Greek for no reason. 👀 Horn, however, was clear and direct in his delivery and got right to the point.
I saw some of the debate on the channel of the church this was hosted in, but I could not find it later. I'm glad this video exists in case the original was taken off or privatized on UA-cam.
James Whites main strategy is to simply sound convincingly. Make it SOUND like his own position is so orthodox and Trent is just following some weird old traditions of men. But When looking at scripture, history and the argumentative strength itself without the rhetoric and Blabla, it’s clear that Trent doesn’t just win, he pulls the rug out from under James Whites feet . He’s got no foundation to stand on other than his Protestant man made traditions
Except that Trent admitted his interpretation was unique and one of a kind. James explained the passage to Trent several times and Trent just glibly talked over it.
Purgatory was one of the easiest Church doctrines to accept because it lines up with the sense of justice we're given and particularly from a more OSAS evangelical environment, it makes sense of many passages. Like how can your sins be covered by doing good works if you're already saved, and how will you be punished for sin if you're already saved?
@@BlakeRatliff-h8b But what if you are no longer in Christ? Even ignoring the unforgiving servant pr the fact that you can be a part of the true vine and still be cut off, there are people who were in Christ who then fell away. Paul also uses language that leads to this conclusion where faith is like a race you must run to the end lest having been in Christ you falter at the end
@@BlakeRatliff-h8b And? We believe in that. Some _are_ predestined, and the faithlessness of man does not negate the faithfulness of Christ. He won't lose anyone through his own actions. People disqualify themselves through their own sin. You do realize John talks about mortal sin, right? That is sin that makes you lose salvation. You find the same language throughout the old testament where the point is despite the destiny of Israel as a whole, people could stray, but it was not God abandoning them it was the other way around
@@TheThreatenedSwanSo ultimately, God is not powerful enough to save me from my sin. It's ultimately up to my strength and my power to save myself. So I am equal to God then in power. Right?
Opening remark recap: 1) Trent: CCC definition, Bible citations, deductive argumentation, parallels with Malachi 3, non Catholic scholars , cites Calvin himself, early church fathers all in a PowerPoint presentation 2) James: references he doesn't believe the Pope believes this, the dogma was clearer during the reformation, ~ 10mins on indulgences, rebuts the 1cor citation , a claim is made Catholics in their belief in purgatory cannot have peace. Reminder: The debate is on if the doctrine of purgatory is true
@@gideondavid30 no problem. Trent formulated an extensive positive argument for and James was mostly saying he disagreed and pointed to other things without addressing Trent's arguments. You could be atheist and at least acknowledge Trent was more prepared and James's arguments left you wanting . That's all
@@gideondavid30What’s the problem? Trent pointed out the problem at the beginning of his rebuttal. Instead of giving an opening statement to support his view, James just gave a very poor rebuttal.
You know I would rather believe that there is a purgatory. Here's why, I have family members that had a drug addiction problem and ended up dying from drug abuse. They had been baptized and had a strong belief in God, but they just couldn't shake the addiction. One who is an addict will do just about anything to get drugs but not go to church or turn to God for help because of their shame. So I find comfort in believing they made it to purgatory and that they are being cleansed before entering heaven, rather than to believe they were damned. I would hope that any protestant that has dealt with this type of loss or even losing a loved one to suicide would also hope the same for their loved ones and not just think that they went to hell. That would be a pain I would not be able to easily move forward from. Praying for our hearts to willfully be evangelized by the traditions of the church and the word of God with one faith and one teaching. In Christ our Lord. Amen
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 02:57 *📜 Trent Horn's Opening Statement on Purgatory* - Trent Horn presents the Catholic Church's understanding of purgatory as a final purification of the elect. - He emphasizes that purgatory is not an alternative to heaven or hell, nor a place for sinners to work for their own purification. - Horn offers two main arguments in favor of purgatory: the argument from spiritual cleansing and the argument from moral correction. 18:10 *🔍 James White's Response to Purgatory* - James White begins by providing a formal definition of purgatory from a Catholic source. - He highlights the evolution of language used by Roman Catholicism to describe purgatory over the past 70 years. - White critiques the concept of purgatory and challenges its biblical and historical basis, aiming to refute Horn's arguments. 19:33 *📜 Understanding the Roman Catholic concept of purgatory* - Purgatory is seen as a place of purification, not just from attachment to sin, but also from the remission of temporal punishment for sins. - Roman Catholic theology connects purgatory with the concept of indulgences and the treasury of merit, involving suffering and withdrawal of merit from saints. - Cardinal Bellarmine and others assert that purgatory could last for many hundreds of years, emphasizing the necessity of undergoing suffering to enter the presence of God. 23:20 *🔥 Interpreting 1 Corinthians 3 in relation to purgatory* - Paul's metaphor in 1 Corinthians 3 about building on the foundation of Christ is interpreted as referring to postmortem purification. - The analogy of different materials being tested by fire illustrates how works will be tested and purified by God's judgment. - The passage does not explicitly mention purgatory but is interpreted to support the concept of purification after death. 26:15 *💬 Critique of the opposing view on purgatory* - The opponent's rebuttal focuses on denying the existence of purgatory based on his understanding of imputation and the gospel. - Lack of biblical citation and misrepresentation of purgatory's doctrine and purpose are highlighted. - The opponent's interpretation of key biblical passages, such as Matthew 5 and 1 Corinthians 3, is challenged, emphasizing the need for a more comprehensive understanding of purgatory's theological nuances. 40:39 *🚀 James White's Opening Statement Critique:* - James White critiques Trent Horn's opening statement regarding personal relationships, punishment, and the concept of purgatory. 42:17 *📚 Examination of Roman Catholic Beliefs:* - White discusses the historical consistency of Roman Catholic beliefs regarding purgatory and indulgences. - He argues that Rome's stance on various doctrinal issues has evolved over time, suggesting a lack of absolute continuity. - White emphasizes the theological implications of the concept of indulgences and its relation to purgatory. 44:18 *🛡️ Reformation's Emphasis on Justification:* - White highlights the Reformation's emphasis on justification by faith alone and critiques Roman Catholic views on righteousness and grace. - He argues that the Reformation restored the biblical doctrine of justification and emphasized direct access to God through Christ's righteousness. 46:11 *💬 White's Rebuttal on Purgatory:* - White challenges the scriptural basis for purgatory, questioning the concept's absence in the New Testament. - He asserts that purgatory compromises the essence of the gospel as taught by Paul, emphasizing salvation through Christ's righteousness alone. 48:04 *🕊️ Discussion on Sin and Discipline:* - White discusses the distinctions between mortal and venial sins and their consequences according to Roman Catholic theology. - He argues that even minor sins have consequences, citing biblical passages and challenging James' interpretation. 49:12 *📖 Critique of Biblical Support for Purgatory:* - White critiques James' interpretation of biblical passages and challenges the historical development of purgatory. - He questions the consistency of Protestant rejection of mortal and venial sins, highlighting theological complexities. 51:50 *💡 Examination of Historical Development:* - White discusses the historical development of the doctrine of purgatory, citing differing perspectives within Christianity. - He challenges the notion of a universal and continuous belief in purgatory throughout church history. 01:00:50 *💬 Interpretation of Greek Lexicon in Context* - Discusses the interpretation of Greek Lexicon in the context of punishment. 01:03:48 *💭 Views on Purification after Death* - Explores the concept of purification after death for Christians. - Discusses whether Christians continue to desire sin after death. 01:06:29 *📖 Analysis of 1 Corinthians 3* - Analyzes 1 Corinthians 3 regarding the building upon the foundation of Christ. - Explores the symbolism of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw in the context of testing by fire. 01:19:36 *📜 Perspectives on Afterlife in Early Christianity* - Early Christian views on the afterlife varied widely. - Key figures like Peter, Paul, and James did not explicitly endorse the concept of postmortem punishments or purification. 01:22:42 *⚖️ Sin, Punishment, and Discipline in Christian Life* - Christians believe that God disciplines them to morally perfect them. - The concept of unpleasant discipline aligns with Hebrews 12:11. 01:27:14 *🔥 Interpretation of Punishment and Reward in 1 Corinthians 3* - Exploring the interpretation of rewards and punishments in 1 Corinthians 3. - Discussion on the fate of works built with different materials-gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw. 01:31:49 *💬 Theological Interpretation of Romans 4:3-5* - Analysis of Romans 4:3-5 regarding imputation of righteousness and forgiveness of sins. - Debate on the role of works in justification and the definition of righteousness by faith. 01:39:04 *🕊️ Theological Response to Luke 23:43 and Purgatory* - Addressing the argument against Purgatory based on Luke 23:43. - Explaining how the thief on the cross could still have entered Paradise without contradicting the concept of Purgatory. 01:40:28 *💬 Critique of Church Authority and Biblical Interpretation* - Challenging the authority of the church to define doctrines like Purgatory. - Emphasizing the absence of explicit mention of Purgatory in Scripture. 01:42:15 *📜 Anglican Position on Scripture and Purgatory* - Explaining the doctrinal stance of High Church Anglicans on sola scriptura and purgatory. - Discussing the theological development within Anglicanism regarding justification and salvation. 01:44:19 *⛪️ Diversity Within Protestantism and Views on Catholic Doctrine* - Illustrating the spectrum of Protestant views on Catholic teachings. - Highlighting theological agreements between certain Protestant denominations and Catholicism. 01:45:31 *🔍 Interpretation of "It is Finished" and Confidence in Exegesis* - Analyzing different interpretations of Jesus' statement "It is finished" on the cross. - Addressing misconceptions about the meaning of the Greek term and its implications. 01:46:11 *🛡️ Assurance of Salvation and Sanctification After Death* - Clarifying the Protestant perspective on salvation, sanctification, and sin after death. - Rejecting the concept of mortal sin and emphasizing justification by faith alone. 01:48:04 *🧭 Purpose of Jesus' Death and the Role of Purgatory* - Elucidating the necessity of Jesus' death in Catholic theology. - Distinguishing between the eternal consequences of sin and temporary consequences. 01:49:41 *🕍 Interpretation of Peter's Authority and Confession of Sins* - Discussing the absence of priesthood in the New Testament and the role of apostles in proclaiming forgiveness. - Rejecting the sacramental understanding of confession and priesthood. 01:51:50 *📚 Development of Doctrine and Changes in Catholic Teaching* - Defending the concept of doctrinal development in Catholic theology. - Exploring different models of purgatory and their evolution over time. 01:53:23 *🌌 Persistence of Sin and Righteousness in the Afterlife* - Addressing the ongoing struggle with sin after salvation and 01:57:35 *📖 Paul's Use of "Purification"* - Paul's use of the term "purification" (Zia) is not about purgatory but about suffering loss, as seen in his consistent usage. - The term in 1 Corinthians 3 refers to the revelation of one's deeds, not purification or punishment. 01:59:18 *🕊️ Arguments for Purgatory* - Trent presents two arguments for the doctrine of purgatory: sanctification in this life and unpleasant discipline after death. - Sanctification model suggests that sanctification may continue after death until completion before entering heaven. 02:04:17 *💬 Critique of Roman Catholicism* - The debate highlights the fundamental disagreement between biblical gospel preaching and Roman Catholic doctrine. - Criticism is directed towards the notion of imputation of righteousness as a legal fiction in Roman Catholicism.
Trent you rock! James likes to throw out little off topic side jabs at the Catholic faith... one liners delivered with malice. No evidence of charity in his version of Christ
Trent, great job! I was there both nights, with my Catholic convert friend and my Church of Christ preacher friend (I know, it sounds like the start of joke 😄). We all agreed you were the clear "winner" in this Purgatory debate. You got James White *thisclose* to admitting a postmortem purification; in fact, I'd say that he did admit it.
He was only a winner in your eyes, because you guys are still blinded, and still in your sin, because you have not been regenerated and born again you’re still blind, and a slave to sin🤷♀️😞
Not sure if you have any understanding however Trent only proved he follows a religions doctrine not scripture. 97% of his observation is from catholic doctrine.. following Jesus is the road to heaven. not the road to purgatory.
@@Pastor-BraulioFFL-NYit’s like you didn’t watch the debate. He quoted scripture. And the only claim he made about purgatory (what it is) was that it was a purification process. But what you fundamentally do not understand (because you like to straw man the Catholic position) is that there is no purgatory without the promise of Heaven. And no one cares to require purification in the next life. But you just assume Catholics look forward to purgatory. We do not.
I never can understand why so many Protestant preachers spend so much time studying and denying the Catholic Faith. Why if Catholics are wrong then why do they care!!!!! And in history how many Protestants have returned to the Catholic Church after studying the Church teaches.
They care for the same reason Catholics study Protestant positions: to help people come into the what they believe is the fullness of truth and God’s plan for their life. Especially if you’re a Protestant who thinks Catholicism has a false gospel and thus Catholics essentially need to convert for the first time
@@stormchaser9738 I am very studied Catholic and have never studied Protestant doctrine because I would rather spend my time learning more about my Faith to come to the fullness of truth then live that truth as an example to non-believers. Because as St Robert Bellarmine said and encourages us to say everyday. "I believe all the truths taught by the Catholic Church" An effective way to fight off the devil in times of temptation. I have never heard James White talk about what he believes just what is wrong with what the Catholic Church teaches. St John Henry Newman came to the Church by reading Catholic teachings to prove it was wrong and came to the realization that the Catholic Church was correct and is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ. Maybe in time James White and others will receive the same grace and return to the fold.
They care Because Protestantism only holds if Catholicism is false Problem For protestors is they now have over 40k different denominations protesting each other An absolute mess
@@abiecader Your degrees and PhD. do not count before God! Peter a simple fisherman, was chosen by God as the first pope!!! Peter ordained Apostles, baptized pagans and dictated doctrine infallibly!!! God confirmed his decision!! No PhD needed!!!
@@davido3026 With respect. Your response has taken me by surprise? By the way, I agree with you 100%. I am Catholic, I will defend the faith. I made some comments, and was challenged by one or two protestants and atheist ask me to substantiate why I say what I said. As I said, if the doctrine of the Church is being challenged and I am asked to defend it, I will do so, which I did by offering a rebuttal. Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee.
@@abiecader PhD lmao, he's got one from Columbia Evangelical Seminary, an unaccredited online school. He's not a real Doctor of Theology (or Doctor of anything for that matter).
1:23 James: "The term 'unpleasant' doesn't-isn't relevant" Trent: "okay, well, In Heb 12 it says 'for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant...'" James: '"If you want to use that term... I would never preach a sermon using that term.." Trent: "I'm sorry you won't preach what the Bible says." 🤣 A cheeky side of Trent rarely seen. White didn't like the taste of a classic Protestant polemic.
The AoMin yt channel doesnt have open comments on most or any of its videos. Some UA-camrs dont, who just choose not to devote time and attention to that.
James did a great job trying to give a clear picture of what purgatory really means in the Catholic Church because Trent clearly presented a polished version of purgatory. Purgatory was d scariest thing growing up in the catholic faith, the church really teaches that a person has to be severely punished for their leftover venial sins and we have to keep praying for them so that God can reduce their punishment lest they be sent to hell.
Really? He is using a one of kind interpretation of Corinthians in order to justify purgatory, and the only reason we found out is because James, after explaining three times what the passage means, finally went through the passage in detail and found out what Trent did. Note, this was a unique interpretation from both a catholic and protestant perspective.
Dear@@coloradodutch7480, using 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as a reference to Purgatory is a common Biblical text in Catholic circles. It seems so clear. The "unique interpretation" was talking about a book that spoke of the "works" that are tested by fire, as the converts made by the pastors described in the first part of the chapter. And it was just an interesting proposition.
It's not that White's presentation was bad - which it was - but it was more that his entire approach to the debate was utterly wrongheaded, in that he tried too hard to speak like a pastor. That is, I think he counted on his rhetorical skills to save him in this debate, which they clearly did not. Also concerning were the many times I feel "the real James White" burst out. Comments like, "fangs out," and, "that was a cheap shot and you know it and everyone in the audience knows it too," as though JW has never done any such thing. I couldn't help but notice, too, all the rude and immature little expressions on JW's face whenever Trent was speaking. Take note, and ask yourself if that's the behavior of someone "who understands who The Blessed Man is"?
@@TheJason909 What James White called a cheap shot. When Trent said “you don’t preach what the bible says” James called it a cheap shot. Then in James whites closing statement he said something along the lines of Biblical Christianity vs Catholicism
YES. This debate was so troubling to hear. We have been saved by FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one should boast! What Christ did on the cross was sufficient enough! The whole Old Testament was building up to this moment of His death! We were sacrificed by Christ, why would we need further sanctification! Why would God send His son, but only give us a portion of the sanctification, and expect us to do the rest? THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WAS ENOUGH! If we are rejecting this notion or twisting the idea, then we suddenly become like all of the other false religions out there that focus on works, and spend their whole life ‘working’ to get into Paradise, and then forget to have a relationship with the one true God at all! This is what happened with the poor Jewish people.. they became SO obsessed about all the Mosaic laws that they forgot to actually seek a relationship with YAHWEH. Our works are filthy rags, we will never be good enough. Even if we could lead a sinless life, we would still be stained with sin because of the fall. CHRIST YESHUA PAID IT ALL! Thank you God for making THE WAY for us, and giving us your Son. I bless everyone in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. God bless everyone, and ask for God to protect your heart from false teachings and to allow His truth to always be made apparent to you. ✝️✝️✝️
@@carrie_k Hi Carrie Thanks for your answer. I belive that the sacrifice of Christ was enough to save us, I would even say that one drop of His blood would have been enough to save all of humanity. However I also belive that we are commanded to love Good and our neighbour and love requires works. For exmple would a wife belive her husband when he tells her, I love you, but then he never helps her in any way?
@@carrie_k Matthew 7:21-23 Text: • 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” • 22 “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’” • 23 “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” So right here Jesus is saying unless you do the will of my father. What is the will? Is that works or belief? He also says depart from me you workers of lawlessness. What does lawlessness means? Someone who doesn’t obey laws. So you need to do the will of the father and obey the laws which are works.
You should have pressed James on the issue of forgiveness of sins: Why would Jesus bestow on the Apostles this unique power, if all sins were "automatically" forgiven just by one's intellectual act of faith? How do you get your sins forgiven, mr James?
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36). Assuming you believe and are filled with The Holy Spirit, you have the authority to tell a person if they are under condemnation if they reject Christ. You also have the authority to tell a person they are saved based on their profession of faith and remind then that they are under no condemnation in Jesus Christ. The disciples represent us as a body... not just limited to a select priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9 says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings." If a selected priesthood limited to only a handful of priests that forgive sins is true, these passages are incorrect. The disciples never desired to take the seat of Christ and priests who act as a mediator before God are anti-Christ. They take glory from The One who came to make a way and is THE ONLY way to The Father. Not a priest forgiving you. The levitical priesthood would point to Christ being our Great High Priest. The only one who can atone for your sins.
@@ElloSheerio Jesus didn't say "go and tell others whether they're free from sin or not", but "if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained", so he have them the power to forgive sins, not just to state a fact. He also gave them authority to teach, baptize, anoint and heal. And we know from Jesus himself that the miracle of forgiveness is greater than that of healing a leper. As to the priesthood - if Jesus is the High Priest, there should also be other priests (Cohens) and servers (Levites), and then the laity. Our universal priesthood relates to our ability and obligation to intercede for others before God, which also includes intercession of the saints in Heaven. But it's not the same thing as intercession of the priest who represents Christ himself. The laity have no authority to forgive sins or to celebrate the Eucharist. Even Saint Mary doesn't have it, though she's the greatest of all creation. Please don't try being wiser than the 1990 years old Church. Only Peter received the Keys of the Kingdom and the authority to guard it against error. Neither Luther nor Calvin, nor any other self-proclaimed pastor has any authority.
Good job Trent. Trent brought many biblical texts to the table - many from the Old Testament James did 2 things. 1. Ridiculed the Catholic faith - (ridiculing is a Protestant thing since they have nothing constructive to say and deny what the bible says) 2. Would engage only in discussing one bible text, everything else was rubbished
I almost expects this performance by White. He had mentioned this last year in his radio show how he has many debates this year and how he doesn’t have time for them and how he has a crew of folks who does some of his homework for him. I think it’s time James White hang up the gloves. He’s getting older and isn’t finding time to perform anymore.
At some point, we have to stop taking James White as a serious apologist. These debates were completely embarrassing for him. Juvenile, stale intellect.
His debates from many years ago against people like Bart Ehrman or Muslim apologists or members of the LDS church were pretty good from what I remember. But you’re right. I mean this as charitably as possible but White is not a young man anymore and it seems like his mind is beginning to slip.
@@zacharynelson5731 His debate with Ehrman was terrible he just kept ranting about postmodernism, bringing up the Quran and saying that low error rates in medieval copying by trained copyists mean that the copying of the oldest manuscripts must be likewise even though it was done by amateurs.
I think the best reason to believe in this doctrine is that the Jews did and still believe in praying for and to people who have passed on. And the fact that there is support for purgatory in Maccabees. "You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews." *[John 4:22]* Our Lord did not break away from Judaism; he fulfilled its prophesies and completed it. The line protestants often use to argue against purgatory is almost always reworded and misstated the same way they jumble around the straightforward message of The Epistle of James. They often say as White did in this debate, that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." But this is not what that passage says. 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. *[2 Corinthians 5:8-9]* The passage as reworded by White is not the same as it appears in the scriptures. He has changed the words around so that it fits with his beliefs. Also, if being absent from the body means one was present with the Lord, why then does the very next passage state that we must labour whether absent or present in the body? It wasn't until I started watching the How to Be Christian channel that I realized how often White and Durbin change scriptures like this. I'm glad Trent called White out on this, but I wish he would have pressed him a bit more.
Are you under the impression that the scripture you provided means we labour when we are absent from the body? Interesting. It says, “wherefore we labour”….this seems to be present tense. “That”….this seems to mean…so that, or so then “Whether present or absent”….this seems to say whatever state we will be in…future tense… “We may be accepted of Him”….again…in that future state. How, exactly, are YOU interpreting this? Better yet, has “the church” interpreted this? Or was your post your own private interpretation?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 You know... You are correct about that specific passage. It does not say what I thought it did. Or at least, I need to research [2 Corinthians 5:9] more. With that said, it does not change the fact that [2 Corinthians 5:8] - the previous passage - does not say that there is no purgatory. It does not say what James says it does, and protestants usually use that faulty interpretation against the teaching of purgatory. As an aside, [2 Corinthians 5:9] "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." is against faith alone.
It is indeed an ill-inteded nickname that started being used around the 16th century by protestants to belittle the universal authority of the Catholic Church [so they could "justify" their existence and their man-made churches]. But you stay strong and pray for them, brother. God Bless. The Catholic Church has many rites, all of them beautiful and legit.
All Catholics are Roman Catholics. Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
I'm a Latin Rite/Roman Catholic too but hearing them generalize us all as roman catholics is just so cringy most especially I have other friends who are from different rites of the Catholic Church. Like dude there is a reason why we are THE Universal Church.
Was looking forward to this debate but it became pretty painful and almost unbearable to watch with how little James White actually knows about what the Catholic Church teaches, how doctrine develops and is understood within Christian history or even the difference between doctrine and Dogma. He used a lot of linguistic gymnastics to incorrectly twist what the Catholic Church believes into something unidentifiable just to fit his agenda without proving anything except his lack of knowledge about the Catholic Church. Sadly, he was defensive from the beginning while failing to clearly identify his position.There were so many holes in his debate. I thought Trent was very articulate, clear in his well-rounded points and basically has history on his side.
Had the joy of seeing this in person and meeting Trent. Suffice to say, he is extremely intellectual and introvertedly extroverted as well.😂 All jokes aside, Trent won in my book and it was a lot of fun.
James is a great entertainer thats why some people think he got the upper hand in this debate but he did not give any evidence for his beliefs. Thank you James for turning people into the True Church, The Catholic Church
So true. Thank you James White because of your attitude towards our Catholic Faith draw a lot of people to dig deep to find out the truth that Our Lord Jesus founded the Holy Catholic church. May The Holy Spirit softens your heart that you will truly love God and love people. Less arrogant and more friendly to respect our Catholic faith.
the roman catholic doctrine of purgatory was not even fully established until the 2nd council of lyons in 1274 a.d. luther correctly added 2nd macabees as apochrapha because of 2 reasons: macabees 2 was a historical description of the siege of jerusalem in the great rebellion against the greek helenistic king of syria, antionichus, not a spiritual work. . works of the o.t. were written by prophets. there were no prophets from 400 b.c. until Christ. therefore luther correctly removed 2nd macabees as scripture.
I've been watching debates like this for a long time, and I've been won over to the perspective of the Catholic Church. I want to convert, but when I expressed this to my wife she said she doesn't want to be married to someone who is Catholic. Do you have any advice on how I should move forward? I want to be a part of the One True Church but I also don't want to threaten my marriage.
Offer this intention to God through Christ who is literally and transubstantially present in the Holy Eucharist 🙏🙏🙏 My Dad gave up his decade long habit of smoking because of my mom's devotion to a novena and frequent visit to the blessed sacrament 🙏🙏 Fyi, my dad didn't experience any withdrawal symptoms as he left smoking few days after the novena🙏
Brother, ask the Blessed Mother to pray for you. She’s the greatest intercessor and prays for her children and there are countless miracles in the most hopeless situations. Pray, hope and don’t worry as St Padre Pio says. “With man this is impossible, with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26
James White nailed it with his opening. Purgatory is an extra-atonement. Jesus said it is "finished" and he didn't say to the criminal at his crucifixion, "today you will go to purgatory and I'll see you later".
Good debate, thanks. I like Hebrews 12:29 "God is a consuming Fire" and how the Seraphim are the "burning ones" to see how we are each called to become On-Fire Christians and therefore must go through this purgation this purification until we are glowing hot on-fire with His love and purity and holiness. Refiner's Fire, it is our one desire, to be holy, like Him. Amen.
That's what I was thinking because I know Mike is aware of the videos that Trent makes in response to his videos. There was once a time that I would watch Mike for hours back when I was Protestant. It was Mike's attitude that first made me see the anti-catholicism in myself (that was based on nothing but ignorance) Now when I hear Mike speak about Catholicism I hear nothing but anger and sarcasm. He tries to come across as extremely confident in his position but I think it speaks volumes if he isn't willing to debate. This is where I have to give James some credit for at least trying.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 56:47 James White says “too be absent from the body is to be present with the lord” trying to quote 2 Corinthians 5:8-9 to prove his point, this is a lazy paraphrase at best and at worst it is making up his own scriptures to align with his beliefs and stating them as if he is quoting the Bible.
@@wezelofone ”we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.“ 2 Corinthians 5:8 2 locations are mentioned here….is there a 3rd that I’m missing?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 the question was about James misquoting scripture to better align with his personal beliefs. You asked for an example, I provided one, in this very video, that you are commenting on.
@@wezelofone right. I’m trying to ascertain how his paraphrase or rewording of that scripture is so far off base from its original meaning I’m trying to understand how the meaning would be significantly different had he quoted the scripture exactly, since that seems to be the issue at hand from your response.
45 minutes in and James White is completely outmatched, he’s rude and disrespectful, he is indeed offering scoffing as arguments but then has the gall to act like Horns criticism of his behavior is a shot across the bow and Horn is turning the debate to an uncivil tone. No Mr White it is you and your snide tone throughout the entire discussion. I am a Protestant that’s starting to lean towards Catholicism White is certainly helping me with my decision.
Were you even watching the video? Trent's snide response about White's opening statement said a great deal about his attitude being ungracious. It simply wasn't warranted on any level. I saw no disrespect from White but plenty from Horn and some quite weak debating methodology. A later response from Horn was full of deflections and lacking any scriptural weight including an irrelevant comment about Luther and the church they were in and its belief about baptism etc.
“I’ve been looking forward to this.” ~ Count Dooku
Twice the Protestantism, double the fall
Trent - “My powers have doubled since the last time we met, James.”
Is it possible to exegete scripture correctly?
*Trent:* Not for a Protestant.
The catholic church is a pathway to many abilities some would consider to be... unnatural.
The catholic church is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be supernatural.
Watched it live. Could not believe how poorly White argued his position. Basically was “these unofficial Catholic sources say XYZ about Purgatory, and that’s ridiculous! Therefore, Purgatory is false.”
It was essentially an argument from incredulity, and Trent was right to point out that “my opponent should be using official teachings, not some individual’s speculative theology.”
I feel that for several years he has been grasping at the wind trying to disprove the Catholic Church. God please take down his pride and bring him to the truth.
@@dandersen464
Idk how accurate this is so take it with a grain of salt.
But from what I understand James’ whites father was a baptist pastor who had allegations of abuse; either sexual or that he was stealing (I’ve heard both from different sources, again take it with a grain of salt)
And his sister left their church when she was an adult and became a catholic and she basically said whatever allegations against their father were true.
This obviously would have caused a great deal of shame for White; but he has levied those negative feelings against the Catholic Church as a scapegoat.
individual’s speculative theology, literally, that's the entire basis of the five solaes and the framework of protestanstism, "evangelicalsim", reconstructionsim, bible societies, and all other made in-U.S fundamentalist cereal box "christianities".
Hmm, interesting. It is sad when things like that happen. I honestly don’t know if I would have been rooted enough in my faith as a young person to go through that and still pursue Christianity.
@@zacharynelson5731That’s what I heard, too, and I watched an interview with a woman who I assumed was his sister, and she mentioned her brother was a prominent Protestant speaker. Her name is Patty Bonds.
One thing about most of these debates with informed interlocutors. I wish that the question would be asked "why do you think your opponent isn't seeing what you are seeing?" He has the same data as you. Also in the same vein. "You could be wrong what could be preventing you from seeing that?" It just seems like an interesting thought experiment.
That would be a great question.
Good questions, but somewhat hard to answer. I would guess Trent might identify presuppositions about sanctification and justification that James holds that Trent would argue are flawed, and James would say the same about Trent, perhaps adding that he doesn't believe that Trent honestly reached his presuppositions on his own but because "Rome told him he has to accept them."
No protestant is guided by the Holy Spirit, therefore the amount of data they have amounts to piles of vain information.
Conversely, the Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33AD!!!
@@John_Fisherthe Holy Spirit dwells in the catholic church since 33AD
@@davido3026 no proof of this
I converted to Catholic from Protestant. Purgatory makes so much sense to me. It holds me accountable for ongoing sin. Going to confession also holds me accountable. I look at sin way different than I did while I was Protestant. It helps me think twice before engaging in sin again knowing I will be held accountable for every sin I commit especially being Christian who knows right from wrong. I’ve found that everything the Catholic Church teaches has helped me become a better Christian. I have a better prayer life, help from the saints and Mary, universal understanding of scripture and doctrine, more ethnic diversity in the church, respect and reverence during mass (no loud modern music) ancient traditions , the sacramentals , it’s all for Christ’s glory! Nothing they teach has brought me further from Christ , it’s only brought me closer to Christ. My faith feels complete now. I feel like I have a home. It’s a shame so many Protestants call it a false religion and even evil. Without the Catholic Church we would have no Bible or Christianity. All praise to Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23: Says that believers are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, and sanctified.
Making sense to you doesn’t make it true it just makes you feel better
@@HighIQVidsAmen! You are so right!
@@Tacocat123You are 1000% right! There is A WAY which seemeth right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death! Don’t have fools gold and come up short. It’s not by works (although if one is TRULY SAVED good works will be natural because of gratitude) but FAITH ONLY!
Good for you. Welcome home!
I’m Protestant. Somebody needs to check on White, this was a really bad performance. I’m not the biggest fan of White, but the brother needs to actually attend to the topic instead of an almost ad hominem attack against Catholicism. The debate is about purgatory, not the Catholic belief of it. And then acts like Horn was the aggressor. Wow, I’m sorry but this is not a proper or reasonable method of debate.
Go ahead and check on him yourself!! What kind of words can you say for him to listen to? Why does he have to listen to you?
What authority do you or anyone have for that matter?
Protestants do not have any authority whatsoever
Blind leading the blind!!!
@@perazdera2827 do you know what doctrine is? It’s teaching that is handed on. To know Christ is to know what he taught and by extension the Apostles and early Church fathers along with the Church.
Lack of understanding scripture and the doctrines is a lack of understanding Christ
@@perazdera2827 Better to seek God than try to think you understand Scripture when you don't. You can quote anything you want but it's you who lacks discernment. Remove the log from your own eye before trying to remove the speck in others.
@@perazdera2827Good luck. You are easily self-deceived.
@@perazdera2827 Jesus didn’t begin a Church?
Matthew 16:17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.
Matthew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."
The Church is the body of believers AND there is a physical structure of the Church with priests, bishops and deacons.
To be fair last June 2023 I had a “near death experience”.I have seen my soul infront of me in shape of blazing fire. When I was in that state, all I felt was regret and questioned myself “what I have done to myself” but at the same
time I dont find any reason why I need to go back to this present world. In terms of purgatory, I was in this place that seems like I was lying on a glass and under it was fire. It wasnt painful at all but I am suffering because there was a light, like a tunnel’ infront of me and I know thats where I am supposed to be going but I couldnt go. I am suffering because of my desire to be there but I couldnt. Then I heard the voice of a female voice that I recognized to be Mary and she told me to PRAY! PRAY! PRAY! I was comforted.
Wow amazing testimony
Wow! What a gift you were given to have a second chance to make things right.
Thank you for sharing this. Look into ‘Illumination of Conscience”, aka The Warning. I think it might happen soon. But you are blessed to already have a preview. Let us all PRAY PRAY PRAY as Mama Mary says.
That's crazy talk.
You had a dream, that's all.
Stop making stuff up.
You need to get out more.
Socialize, exercise and eat healthy.
Sleep enough hours and most importantly seek mental health therapy.
@@oflunrazeuqrami wouldn’t dismiss it as a dream, and even if it was , god can use visions or dreams to help us to come to him
Trent does a really good job representing the Catholic Faith.
James does a good job of slandering Catholics while answering no questions.
Yup!
Purgatory is a,ridiculous nonsensical doctrine. The fact that you guys think anyone can defend it well is,delusional l.
getting some closet klansman vibes from James. NGL.
Yeah, Trent got this one hands down
As a protestant, I consider White to be a catholic. :)
I love that White was the one that chose to debate purgatory (Trent wanted to debate Sola Scriptura) and yet White didn’t even prepare an opening statement.
James White is one of the most convincing Catholic Apologist out there 😂
Debating James White must feel like purgatory 💔
Being in a Lutheran church
Yes, doing good works covers your own sins as the Bible says which White does not believe
Peak comedy
Purgatory is actually just listening to James White unnecessarily speak in Greek and reference the 90s over and over and over...
maybe even a level lower? 🤣
Trent: "I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory."
James: "Here's what Ludwig Ott wrote about purgatory, and he's wrong if you assume Calvinism."
“I will not debate speculative theology about the duration of purgatory”
“St Robert believed purgatory could last for decades”
Hahahaha
@zacharynelson5731 you and James White are confuse with regards to an individual vs. the church, or you are too lazy to research how doctrines came to be.
Trent: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory”
Trent: provides mostly his own (or Akin’s) theological opinion about purgatory.
Trent’s supporters: Trent is teaching sound theology that has always been the belief of “the church”.
Some future apologists: “I will not be defending various theological opinions about Purgatory (Trent’s opinions….Akin’s opinions)
That future apologists supporters: This apologist is teaching sound theology that has always been believed by “the church”.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303What he is defending is only what has been dogmatically defined.
I have yet to hear an anti Catholic voice that was not filled with either anger, frustration or sarcasm. I was like this when I was a Protestant.
Yeah, idk. I'm not a catholic but I don't hate you guys. I hear james' bitter attitude, but I also hear that from plenty of catholics. I think that's a human problem, not a denominational one. Eyes on self, not on God.
He who has ears let him hear
@briggy4359 Catholicism is not a denomination!!!
It is the essence of Christianity , here it is, a clue for you: Acts 2:5-13
Catholic means universal!!!!
I mean I’ve yet to hear a catholic voice actually address atheism without frustration too
@davido3026 perfect example of that anger, frustration, and sarcasm.
So many Protestants (like me when I was one) are adamant that the Bible says nothing about purgatory. Trent does an amazing job in his first couple minutes laying out why that's not the case. Maybe the strongest point, which many didn't catch, is that the word "gehenna" was an actual Jewish image of something almost identical to purgatory. Your Bible probably just says "hell" to translate that word, and maybe it refers to a permanent state at times, but the word used was Gehenna.
The book Trent cites is by Simcha Raphael, Jewish Views of the Afterlife, I believe. I spoke with Raphael, a very kind man, and he laid out this very issue for me 2 years ago. He said in Jesus' time, the view of the afterlife was that most went to Gehenna to be purged for a time before going to Gan Eden (heaven). He did say that some saw this as a destruction into ashes or as eternal torment, and, oddly, many of the sources used all three views together, like almost everybody gets out, but some are tormented forever, but as the others leave, the dust and ashes from those who were there permanently were on their sandles. Soon after Christ, the Jewish belief on Gehenna solidified into it being a maximum 12-month process of cleansing, so not even the most evil was there permanently or annihilated. This is why Jews consider it wrong to mourn your parents for more than 11 months, because you'd be dishonoring them by assuming they had the maximum amount of evil to be cleansed. All that to say, if the Bible says Gehenna, rather than just apply your modern understanding of the word, tainted by centuries of various theological opinion, it's important to consider what the word meant to Jesus' audience. They would have heard something much more like purgatory than hell, or maybe a place/state that had potential to be either. So saying "it's not in the Bible" is not true.
Now if you are catholic if you are not orthodox and roman.cathiloc than you are considered to be a heretic based on history. Orthodox real catholic church
You say Protestant, but Orthodox also don't believe in purgatory
@@Fassnight Have you read what the Orthodox objections are? If Protestants read the Orthodox position, I'm pretty sure y'all would just say, "Isn't that the same as purgatory?" Read this objection from St Mark of Ephesus, or find another from that time. Basically, they say yes, many souls need to be cleansed in the after life, but not helped by fire (Catholics no longer insist on a literal fire, so this isn't an issue), and yes, prayers and liturgies can help get them out, but they will be released from eternal fire, not from temporal fire, through these prayers. They use eternal/aionion in more the original Greek sense, to mean cyclical time rather than straight line time, so just because it's eternal doesn't mean it can't end. Reading these early Orthodox objections... I think their views would be considered completely acceptable in the developed doctrine of Catholic purgatory. silouanthompson.net/2019/05/mark-of-ephesus-purgatory/
@@Fassnightwrong my friend, the Orthodox Church holds a doctrine that is similar to the Catholic Church's belief in purgatory, which is a concept of purification after death. The Orthodox Church believes that purity of heart is essential for union with God.
Purgatory is not in the Bible. Trent gave not one biblical reference that it is.
During James White’s “opening statement” me and my fiancé were commentating and were saying how that was just a bitter, poorly constructed rebuttal. Glad Trent pointed this out in his first rebuttal. Also ironic how White said Trent was being unpleasant, considering James is usually very arrogant and unpleasant to listen to.
I agree with all your points about James White. He’s a bitter calvinist.
Trent’s arguments all boiled down to basically ‘God needs more time’ and ‘somehow your death + something = perfection’
It’s basically James White’s exact position just with a special non-Biblical made-up name.
@@G1stGBless I think the Trinity is also made-up strictly speaking. Does not make it untrue.
@@G1stGBless Incorrect.
Everything White accuses others of is what he himself is guilty of.
@@G1stGBlessTrent never said not catholics believe God need more time. This is absolute falsehood. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
42:36
“Purgatory” by Fr Schouppe does contain the doctrinal teachings on purgatory at the beginning of the book; but the vast majority of the book falls under what Trent was talking about at the beginning of the debate about “speculations” on purgatory; given that what Fr Schouppe uses as sources are stories from the saints which fall under private revelation.
Zachary, Fr Schouppe shares visions by saints and doctors of the church and while they are private revelation they were experienced by heavyweights of our faith. They cannot be blithely dismissed as mere "speculations." St. Faustina also visited Purgatory. But the trump card is Mary's revelations about Purgatory at Fatima, such as a person who will be there until the end of the world.
I wear the brown scapular and was surprised when White brought that up in his closing statement.
The thing White said about the brown scapular and his assumption on the reasons why Catholic wearing are to me, almost identical to the way an atheist judge Christianity on things he completely misunderstood.
Turns out, he is well informed with knowledge but completely lack the understanding of the essence. Seems like that exactly the case with our protestant friends.
He always throws in smug comments on random devotions in his closings to make Catholicism look woo woo
This is an astute observation. Protestants devolve to arguments that are atheistic and that completely undermine all of Christianity.
Trent was visibly annoyed by that. (I was at the debate).
What is the purpose of wearing that?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 The scapulars (all, not just the brown) are small versions of a specific religious orders habit. The brown scapular is the small version of the Carmelite habit. The Carmelite order and spirituality were very popular during the middle ages so I believe this is the reason it is so popular. Not to mention its generally just seen as a great devotion to Mary. The origin of the Scapular is said to have been given to St. Simon Stock by the Virgin Mary, however I don't think this is true and seems to be mostly fabricated. Regardless the Sabbatine privilege is not true *in and of itself*. Wearing the scapular and saying the rosary every day won't save you. But it will definitely help us get closer to God, which brings us closer to Heaven.
@@Xymage thanks for taking time to explain that. Appreciate it
James White should receive more credit for bringing so many people to the Catholic faith!
😂😂.. yes, please…
Including is own sister
@@tonymedeiros5353 True.
😂😂😂.... It was BEST many have known Christ Jesus in a living vibrant ralationship.... Religion and purgatory brings soul to hell.... Luke 16:19-31
Pope Francis quote: "All religions are paths to reach God. I will use an analogy, they are like different languages that express the divine". ...please explain
I thought it was interesting when James White said, "that's a cheap shot and you know it and everybody in the room knows it!" It's interesting because James does the same thing quite often, just watch any of his debates and you'll find this tactic being employed, I kinda feel like it would be hard to find a debate from anyone where this doesn't happen, it's in my opinion just a fun, lighthearted way of poking at your opponent. Maybe James White didn't like it because he read Mark Twain say, "There's more truth in jest!!" Great debate Trent I thought you're opening statement was awesome, thanks and God bless you
Trent was correct when he pointed out that White didn’t make an opening statement.
A test for this is that if you edited the video and switched the order would it be coherent?
In whites case no it wouldn’t.
Also, what’s funny is I believe in both a debate with Bart Ehrman many years ago and another debate with a Muslim apologist
Both Ehrman and the Muslim did the same thing; where they went second but gave a rebuttal instead of an opening statement.
And White called them out on it both times.
He did a cheap shot in e or the other debate, when he said Trent Horn was arguing against Christ's position (He really meant his own position.)
I have never heard White bring up personal issues of someone's family, and then use it as a debate cheap shot. You should be ashamed for lying. Repent.
I've struggled previously with a defense for purgatory, perhaps because I did not comprehend fully myself. This is the clearest description and defense of purgatory that I've seen. Great job Trent!
He does a great job. Also look up Dr brand pitre on purgatory. He puts it brilliantly
Everyone sins even after becoming Christian.
This problem needs addressing at the end of the day.
Catholics came up with the concept of purgatory to have the final cleansing of imperfection of a person.
Since, protestants rejects this idea, they have to come up with the concept with the doctrine of imputation of Christ's righteousness. This is simple, for protestants : Jesus Christ, you took upon yourself my sins on the cross and therefore we must exchange my sins with your righteousness by default.
This might be a clear presentation but it is a faulty one. He uses a brand new and unique theory of the interpretation of the Corinthian passage that is clearly not correct, neither Protestants nor Catholic scholars interpret that passage that way today or have so in the past. We would have never known that fact if not for the cross examination. I have watched Trent debate numerous times and he does this over and over. As a debater, Trent is one of the best I have seen, very smooth and convincing but he hides unique and one of a kind interpretations all the time.
The power of the confessional is for the priests authority over the laity. Catholics have a insufferable sense of guilt throughout their journey. Luther was so obsessive about his sins,he was without any insurance regarding his sins were forgiven.
Grace is taken for granted and thats the problem. Staying under the authority of their priests and anti christ popes is not the way jesus wanted it.
It is funny that the catholic quotes the Bible more times than the protestant 😅
Well, it is a Catholic book after all
NT Scripture was written by Catholics and for Catholics. It stands to reason only a Catholic would understand it.
@@curtisjordan9210 Just don't translate it to English, right? (kidding)
@@ihiohoh2708English bibles existed before Tyndale
@@ihiohoh2708i well the king James was miss translated
Trent also won the debate about Sola Scriptura.
No, he didn't. The dumbest debate ever undertaken by someone that calls themselves a Christian is that the bible, which is the Word of God, God breathed by the third Person of the Godhead, is NOT THE HIGHEST AUTHORITY IN MATTERS OF DOCTRINE AND SALVATION. Did I miss something? Is there another Word of God in the world?
As a protestant, there a lot of catholic doctrines that I can't quite accept but, judging by the comment section and by Trent's opening I think I can look forward to one of them getting knocked of the list today.
Did it get knocked down?
No my friend the thief in the cross. Jesus told him today you will be with me in paradise.
@@maciejpieczula631 I'm not sure. I've gone from previously scoffing at the idea to thinking that it could definitely be a thing.
I don't think I'll ever believe in indulgences or even a temporal aspect but I've definitely broadened my perspective.
@@josepharballo601 For one thing, "today" might not be literal: some translations of Acts 2:31 seem to indicate that Jesus spent the three days in hell and it would defeat the purpose of such sacrifice for Him to also be in heaven with the thief on that specific day.
For another, assuming what Trent said is correct about purgatory being simply a purification process between death and heaven (and necessarily a physical place), the process could take literally no time at all.
@@theskyisteal8346 "Jesus spent the three days in hell "
Keep in mind, any part of the day was considered a "day." Peter is clear regarding Jesus and where he went.
*18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison,* 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, (1 Pet 3)
Strongs Greek 3857 for reference
paradeisos: a park, a garden, a paradise
Original Word: παράδεισος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: paradeisos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-ad'-i-sos)
Usage: Paradise.
3.*that part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of the pious until the resurrection: Luke 23:43, cf. 16:23f.* But some (e. g. Dillmann (as below, p. 379)) understand that passage of the heavenly paradise.
White saying that theologians today use different words of phrasings to describe a particular doctrine than how a theologian 50, 100, or 1000 years ago, therefore the doctrine is “changing” and therefore false is a bad argument and pretty ironic.
Because I doubt he would accept a Muslim apologist arguing that because the English used in a 1611 translation of the Bible is different than English in common usage today 400 years later is different, it means that the text of the Bible has been “changed” and is therefore false.
💯
🤣
Nice 👍
He completely misrepresented the definition of "development of doctrine" in the church (one of the difference between Catholic and Orthodox).
Trent is a nightmare match up for James White when it comes to debates. 3-0.
What was the third debate?
@@Garry_Combinetheir first debate was about if a Christian can lost their salvation. Their 2nd debate was about Sola Scriptura (Bible alone) and this video is their third debate about Purgatory.
I KNEW I MISSED ON@@stevenirizarry9427
@@stevenirizarry9427 I KNEW I MISSED ONE!
Sad to say, Purgatory exists.
It is the mercy of God extended to all of us. Amen.
prove it
@@donhaddix3770😅sounds like you didn't listen to the debate
@@Bellaluccaminis heard many such debates, fact remains there is no such thing as purgatory.
not in the bible
@@donhaddix3770 Your church is not even in the Bible.
I don't need to tell u that Church came first before the Bible was even compiled by the undivided Catholic-Orthodox church.
Question is, are u even a real Christian to claim such?
White can consistently interrupt Horn and Horn allows him to finish, but when Trent does that White won’t let horn finish and has to make a dig a horn lol. Trent you won!
The debate was set when James White gave his introduction and didn't give an actual argument against purgatory.
@@MrPeach1
I meant against purgatory. Sorry about that.
@@vtaylor21 i deleted my comment since you edited the op and my comment doesnt make sense now
As an outside observer, it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility that we are actually in purgatory now.
@@CMA418 married eh?
@@MrPeach1 😂😂
I find it Ironic that a calvinists keeps quoting," this is doctrine developed over time." Calvin was in the 1500's. 2000 years after the Crucifixion of Christ.
Your numbers are all over the place
It's not that hard to understand the protestant position. Let's stop parroting around false narratives about fellow believers in Christ. The reformers purpose was to bring the Church back to the original teachings of the gospel. Remember Luther was excommunicated by the catholic church. Luther's goal was not to create a "new church".
@@SKgyebaekdouble imputation is the core of the reformation and it was never heard of until luther.
@9 keep up. It's only 2
@aek Maybe that's how he started. But that's not how he finished he went way off. Eventually he did.
I think James is tired. He has been debating a long time. I’d listen to him for 24 years believed everything he said, just about. I was a Baptist, not a Calvinist, but of course, held several Calvinists’ views. I would listen to every debate multiple times through the years., and believed his version of what Catholics believe, until seven years ago, I studied it myself, and I was confirmed into the Catholic faith Easter of 2024! Praise be to God!! Wish I had found it earlier in my life, but better late than never! The Eucharist is true!🙏🏻❤️ The Catholic Church is the church that Christ set up on this earth and the gates of hell will not prevail against her!🙏🏻❤️ pray for James White!🙏🏻
This truly breaks my heart. You turned down the redemptive, complete work of Christ for a treadmill of uncertainty. 💔
@@artax7664 , I understand 🙏🏻 that you think that bc of the Protestant “ thought.” We all have to face God with what and where we believe that He has led us. Right??? I traded in James White, J Mac , RC Sproul (may he rest in peace) for St Igantius, St Polycarp, and St Clement ! And they are CLEARLY Catholic ❤️🙏🏻 how could you read their letters and not see that? Maybe you have never read them. If not, I hope you will look them up. Blessings to you.😀❤️🙏🏻
@@artax7664 , oh, and I have His complete redemptive work ❤️I have His Most Precious Body and Blood , Soul and Divinity that I have for my food. (The Passover is the old, The Eucharist is the new) ❤️🙏🏻Bless you.
@@elizabethking5523 Do you know for a fact you’re going to heaven?
@@elizabethking5523 it’s not “Protestant thought” that led me to believe anything. I have read them, but I have God’s literal written word to test any idea. Pride keeps us from testing these ideas and trusting fallible men is a mistake. I trust God and God alone. I was an atheist without literally any knowledge of God, doctrine, or theology till I picked up my Bible. I was through the New Testament and partly through the old long before ever hearing any doctrine, or even before attending a church service. The beliefs I have come from learning and studying straight from Jesus and His apostles. God leads us from the different paths we begin on, sure, but are you trying to say that all religions lead to God?
Thank you for uploading this with FIXED audio. That last one was so hard to hear.
Trent 3 - White 0
According to you
acording to protestants who commented on the lutheran channel were the debates were held.... be honest bro... white did not argue anything...
@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 ......therefore your sin remains!!!! John 9:41!!!
For starters!!!
@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 The only people who think James white won are TULIP prots.
@@laforjadelcreyente.You mean the videos with the closed comment sections lmao
Thank you Trent for showing the Catholic truth.
Thank you White for strengthening the Catholic faith.
That is the benefit of these debates for us christians, they strengthen our true catholic faith
Amen
True ❤
Nothing shakes the believers in mystery Babylon !
Protestants out here doing us favors :)
@jsharp9735 The Catholic church, the Rock, has never moved since 33AD!! She never will!
Trent only defended "mere purgatory" and didn't mention all the traditional accretions of the Catholic Church. As a means of sanctification, protestants have no real issue with a final purgation of sin in the final judgment. But James was right to point out that the notion this will be as elaborate or lengthy as Catholics have imagined is nonsense.
James white was awfully unprepared. Talking smack about Pope Francis, Catholic teaching “changing”, and mentioning other theologians opinions. Instead to address the topic using scripture or even admitting some of Trent Horns points might be true. He relies on “cmon folks , you know how Rome operates, you know they invented this” “I have the proper interpretation of the scriptures” “I am better than any past popes, church fathers, or any other theologian” ……yeah White you lost the debate the moment you started it. Good Job Trent for doing his homework and bring a strong and clear case for Purgatory. Even if there still are Protestants out there who won’t change their mind, at least now they can see where The Church is coming from to declare purgatory to be true with Biblical support.
He was even worse in the Sola Scriptura debate. Both his opening statements have been bad Faith attacks. If you watch the end of the last one, he refused to acknowledge Catholics as a Christian Denomination. I'd argue he was unprepared due to arrogance and bad Faith
@@Garry_CombineWhite might be exhausted. Even if he lost this debate, that doesn't mean purgatory is true.
@@kevinevans8892 I'm not arguing the doctrine, just the debate practices. I also called Trent out on several comments for being too pushy and interrupting.
@@kevinevans8892 I also don't need Rome to tell me it's true, C.S. Lewis came to the conclusion of purgatory with the Protestant Bible. If he can get that without 2 Maccabees, then it's a logical conclusion from Scripture. I have no reason to doubt him or the Church Fathers on the matter since we're going there.
Unprepared? There’s nothing to prepare for. Purgatory is no where in the Bible and in fact James White was actually being nice in not just coming out and destroying Trent with actual Biblical passages.
James reinterpreted Catholic teaching to mean what he believes it to mean, then criticises his interpretation. Just like Protestants do with the Bible.
Yeah, like his sister said about her brother after her conversion: "He fights a church that does not exist".
Give me an example.
@@aadschram5877There are fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Anyone who doesn't understand the differences is just ignorant. White's sister doesn't know what she is talking about.
@@gideondavid30 Protestants claiming Catholics worship Mary and statues. Protestants claiming Catholics worship the Pope.
There are plenty more strawman arguments like this which the Catholic church does not actually teach but pretended by Prots through misinterpreting Catholic positions based on their own confusion.
Turn to jesus there is no purgatory .
Every night I pray for both Trent Horn and James White, by name. I thank God for Mr Horn and ask God to bless him with continued success in his apologetics. I ask God every night to enlighten Mr White and to bring him into the Church.
James white already by the scripture. read the bible for yourself not your religion
@@ninamaelabiste5557I read the Bible every day. I am convinced that the teaching authority of the Church is in scripture. Likewise, I am convinced that the doctrine of purgatory is true.
@mikesarno7973 the Catholic Church made the bible in 382AD. She predates the bible by 350 years!!! It is her daughter!!!
@ninamaelabiste5557 where in the bible did Jesus order to read any books???
@@davido3026I agree that the Holy Spirit, working through the Church, chose the writings that we today recognize as the Bible.
If people opened their eyes to see how much blessings God is giving to all of us, i would say especially Catholics, in confessions, eucharist adoration, and all in all in relationship with him.. they wouldn't dare to hate so strong
So true, I say this all the time to friends and coworkers. If they just knew the beauty and the attitude in our sacraments and traditions, they wouldn’t hate and instead turn to it in awe.
Sam shamoun said that if Trent wins this debate, he’s a rock star! He’s never seen anyone dismantle james white like trent did on the sola scrip debate! I have to agree with sam, excellent performance!
He didn't dismantle any one
Can you provide an unbiased account of the debate.
@@gideondavid30 Ok main take aways: Trent got white to admit, sola scriptura wasnt the rule for the church and wasnt possible until after the 4th century when scripture was complete. He refused to give a date for when the church started using it. Later in the q&a, hes asked: when did the traditions of the catholic church start as an authority for the church. He said “2nd century desert fathers!” What an admission! So in Dr. whites own view, catholic traditions are older than sola scriptura but at least 300 years!
Again, he couldnt provide a date so that 300 years is as generous as he is being towards his own beliefs! White wanted trent to name some other infallible rule. He immediately said the canon and James had zero defense.
James White is a bible scholar that refuses to credit any of the men that assembled the canon as if was an easy task. He refused to give dates, he got stumped on the canon, and tried to bait trent into defending the papacy over half a dozen times!
@gideondavid30 it's your turn, sweetie. Whenever you're ready. Take your time
@@waseemhermiz7565 LOL
@@timboslice980
1. O.K. I need a time stamp for when James White admitted that sola scriptura wasn't the rule of faith for the early church. Please provide context to the admission as well.
I am fairly certain that Jame's position is that scripture was in oral form first. That doesn't disprove sola scriptura though. This goes to the question of infallibility and what the early church relied on.
2. traditions of the Catholic Church. I need a time stamp. Provide it for me with context. James White's position on tradition is whether it can be proven to be traced to the 1st century or not.
3. How is the canon "some other infallible rule"? The formal of the canon has nothing to do with the debate between sola scriptura and sola ecclesia you do realize this right?
4. You're mistaken. James White does give credit to those who formed the canon, what he doesn't agree with is the notion of church infallibility. Of course the pope is going to be brought up because the entire Roman Catholic faith is built upon that office. All the unique Catholic doctrines found no where in scripture are ushered in through Papal infallibility.
So the other day, a Protestant preacher was talking about premarital sex. He was trying to tell the crowd not to worry or feel guilty if that was a sin they committed because they were forgiven if they asked Jesus to forgive them. But then he also went on to explain the emotional consequences of having premarital sex without commitment and the pain that comes after a breakup and the issues you have to deal with in future relationships due to your past sins. He was giving an argument for purgatory. Of course, you can be forgiven in Christ, but sin has temporal consequences.
That’s a really great way to look at it!
Oops. Accidentally Catholic
Not to feel guilty? You are supposed to feel guilty and thus ask God for forgiveness because of those temporal consequences and the offence to God.
@@johnnotrealname8168 We should definitely feel guilt to some degree, but we can be washed of that guilt because of Jesus; namely, through the sacrament of reconciliation AKA confession
@@scrapdog2113 No, we are never washed of the guilt. You are not, and should not, be washed of the guilt of murder just because you confess it.
I was always just accepting purgatory with docility, but this really helped me get it. Thank you Trent.
Obviously in some sense we accept God..created black holes with docility. We won't demand evidence how it came to exist , evidence from God. But this is different. I reject purgatory. As I reject the rapture. Because there in my ignorance I cannot see evidence for both. But recently I've heard of "bi location" which I guess God allows souls from purgatory to manifest or God manifests them on earth in the human world. So yeah but they could come from hell or heaven. So I still reject purgatory. But if it's truth that Christ preached or his word preaches then I'll accept purgatory. Of course I want to know does this place exist regardless wether I personally view it or never view it? Yes it does as does God. But I certainly do yearn to accept it I just can't do so with docility. However Mr.wjife would definitely fail not "convincing me" only Providing evidence so I can pour time into believing it as to praying for God to show me it's true.
Is the Bible not the word of God? Is Jesus Chris is a liar?
You are not a Christian if you believe in Catholic rituals and historical beliefs over the word of God.
Luke 23:33-43 (LSB): The Crucifixion
33 And when they came to the place called The Skull, there they crucified Him and the criminals, one on the right and the other on the left.
34 But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” AND THEY CAST LOTS, DIVIDING UP HIS GARMENTS AMONG THEMSELVES.
35 And the people stood by, looking on. And even the rulers were scoffing at Him, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if this is the Christ of God, His Chosen One.”
36 And the soldiers also mocked Him, coming up to Him, offering Him sour wine,
37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself!”
38 Now there was also an inscription above Him, “THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”
39 And one of the criminals hanging there was blaspheming Him, saying, “Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!”
40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation?
41 “And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for what we have done; but this man has done nothing wrong.”
42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!”
43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
I actually was very confused. I am a former Catholic. Always heard Purgatory the way White explained it, and was confused by Trents take. Also Matthew 5 has nothing about purgatory.
@chanano1689 as a recovering Catholic, I can confirm the Bible does not mention Purgatory or Catholics anywhere. Those were terms made by man, hundreds of years after Christ's death!
@@Sola_Scriptura_1.618I agree. I think the Scriptures that were used by Trent where extremely weak, and no where else in Scripture will we use the same mode of interpretation. I think they are just coping at this moment.
Trent you a true hero to defend our faith, Love and God bless you❤❤❤❤
Great job, Trent! After my heart attack (and as a practicing, devout, cradle Catholic), I decided to learn much more deeply about my faith. You have REALLY helped me in my depth of knowledge and this closer to God!
Watched this earlier on a different channel. Got to say, I was shocked at how badly prepared White seemed to be.
He was probably so overconfident that he barely prepared at all
He's unwell, that's his excuse
James White is not unprepared( double negative), he just cannot find a good argument against the topic. Plus James White's parrot-ish style, speaking without knowing what he talks about very apparent here. In this debate I see white as a fireworks display, while Trent a firing range.
@@echomike8591 I have a perfect argument. Purgatory is impossible if the resurrection of the Saints is true. If all past and present believers are to take part in the resurrection of the Saints " Which happens to everyone who belongs to Christ" , then in no fashion can purgatory be true. It's a logistical impossibility. What really nails the coffin lid shut on purgatory is what happens to those alive in Christ on that day. They are changed in a blink of an eye and gathered to the Lord with the rest of their brothers and sisters. Wait!? Were they not also supposed to go through a purgatory? Kinda strange that no one is serving any type of sentence in that situation isn't it? And it being taught that all purgatory sentences are different sure as heck makes this impossible. Just a thought I have never heard anyone bring up.
@bairfreedom modern day catholics acknowledge Purgatory can happen in a blink of an eye and is event rather than a place.
So no it doesn't work plus there is lot of scripture not talked about here that points to purgatory
this was very telling, james white argued everything but the actual statement being argued over
James white never actually rebutted anything trent said, never proposed an argument all he did was dodge topics and hand wave
If you think this is James White being angry, you are entirely empty headed
Evangelical here, White's opening statement was lazy, poor and inaccurate. Incredibly disappointed by him.
"You will know them by their fruits."
You are right, a balanced high quality debate would be more helpful. God bless you!
A good friend of mine, evangelical for 26 years, recently became catholic after getting her masters in theology at a Baptist college. She was deeply disappointed in the shallow and contradictory theology she encountered there. She started her degree as a Protestant and graduated a catholic.
@@amysill3815 Maybe just maybe that was yet another of those liberal theological colleges that fails to deliver on the claims they make from the outset?
As a former Irish RC (now evangelical) I feel sorry for your friend having crossed over to that side. You can have all of the religion you want in that camp but little of the real Christ and fulfilment that I found elsewhere.
And for that, I am eternally grateful to my heavenly Father for my spiritual eyes having been opened.
@amysill3815 John Henry Newman, an anglican minister, vitriolic enemy of the Catholic church studied the catholic "falsehood" , converted to it, became a priest and cardinal an ended up a canonized Saint in 2019 by the church he had formerly hated with all his heart!!!!!
I ask this seriously; Is James OK? He seems really frazzled and irritated. I thought Trent was very charitable, but James seemed ready to fight and his arguments were all over the place. I usually like listening to James White in these debates, but this felt like he was very off.
I think he decided long ago that he does not want purgatory to be true, so therefore he will not accept any argument for its reality.
Therefore he was very unprepared for when he came into this debate.
I picked up the same that James is frazzled. Also check his ears turning red… Trent however is very composed. Holds good argument.
We also have to accept if a Protestant accept that there is purgatory obliterates sola scriptura argument.
You apparently watched the wrong debate 😂... Trent was the one who was irritated and nasty. Trent even admitted this... Next time, lay off the booze before tou comment
@@OGQuranChristian4245 I've seen you in another comment accuse people of being drunk because they disagree with you. Do you have a problem?
@@brittoncain5090 she is displaying classic projection
Trent I loved your firm attitude with Mr. White. Great job! You represented Jesus and His Church extremely well.
More like represented the Catholic tradition I don't think Jesus was much of a fan of men's Traditions remember those Pharisees?
@@corydittman4639 Cory, no Christian today is free of following tradition. We are all handed down the tradition we know. Every denomination is a "tradition" of interpretation and authoritative teaching. Protestantism did not solve this problem. The question is is the tradition a Sacred one passed down to us by Jesus.
Here's a question - where is the commandment in the Bible that says that if you disagree with the Church you can start a new one? When the Bible clearly states that the Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
@@PatrickSteil Acts 17:11. Have you read that? How will you test anything if your treachings come from catholic church?
@@maryanna682 - Exactly! Acts 17: 11.
@@PatrickSteil There is no CHURCH as you are trying to use the word. Christ wrote to CHURCHES. Paul and Peter visited Churches.
Church is the body of Christ. RCC is not part of it.
I do think that White has a point that we should not shy away from Ott and Denzinger. Simply saying they aren’t the Catechism doesn’t mean they aren’t two preeminent resources for Catholic teaching. We should be defending them in a debate and not retreating from them. That said, Trent did a good job in the debate and I think made a convincing argument.
I don't think White prepared for this debate at all. As a Protestant, I would have loved to hear a real debate on this subject.
Oh, yeah, sure. Trent will always be ready.
You did hear a real debate. White undermined the essential doctrine of purgatory from the get go. Either you didn’t understand the argument or purgatory. White made him admit he was interpreting the Corinthian passage in a unique way (neither Protestant or Catholic scholars interpret the passage that way) in order to get biblical proof for his stance. The other passages cited by Horn didn’t support purgatory,.
@@coloradodutch7480 , "the other passages cited by Horn didn't support purgatory."
Really?!
@TJMcCarty 👆
Being a smooth-talker OR being a hostile, arrogant attacker-debater
proves what ?
Catechism is a poor, inaccurate
replacement for Scripture.
There’s no good reason at all for
GOD’s Living to be replaced. None.
Faulty source (catechism) leads to faulty belief (purgatory) of a faulty religion (catholicism).
This debate isn’t a Sports competition. The only “winner” is anyone who “gets” GOD’s truth. The only “loser” is anyone who is lost without truth.
Holy Spirit, spirit of truth & wisdom
is needed to discern. Seek Truth.
Truth = Christ. Seek Christ.
⚔️ Truth v Deception =
Spiritual War⚔️
“Watch out no one deceives you.
For many will come in my name
claiming ‘I am the Christ’
and will deceive many.”
Or we can just keep on Protesting. Since that's the whole idea of being a Protestant.
I watched both debates live. I think you did a wonderful job at both, especially the one about Sola Scriptura.
Oh James starting your debate by making fun of Pope Francis, or other Catholics just to win the audience is a big L.
he can’t help himself
Trent even went out of his way to specify that he was arguing the basics of purgation that even some Protestants believe but James can't help but pull the "Catholic bad" card.
I noticed this pattern when I was becoming a catholic.
If you filter out the ad hominem and genetic fallacies from Protestant arguments; what usually remains has very little actual substance
@zacharynelson5731 That is how and why they appeal and recourse to emotional argument and not solid reasoning instedad! They have no valid basis!
Actually it's a big LL (double loser)
Thank God for the Reformation!!!
If James White can't be bothered to create slides presenting his own argument in a cogent manner, how much time and consideration do you really think he gave to his argument rather than being an anti-Catholic reactionary?
He's been doing this for years. He knows the arguments.
@@gideondavid30Then there's no excuse for not being prepared. If he's been doing it for years he would have everything he needs and instead looks like an unprepared high school student with no material.
@david30 it's not about "doing this for years"; because so has Trent Horn lol. And it's not about knowing his arguments, it's about presenting it with visualization for his audience. He just didn't show consideration like @p.doetsch6209 said.
How often do high level debates include slides?
Just because Trent did something that you prefer doesn’t mean White was lazy.
Slides are not common in formal debate.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303The slides are symbolic. His entire presentation was lacking in coherency and substance. The slides were the least of it but demonstrate his lack of understanding for theological and technological preparedness.
This is actually hilarious. Trent has spent the whole debate discussing Purgatory and James White has spent the whole debate talking about everything but Purgatory.
Did you expect him to give evidence of something he doesn’t believe exist by using non-existent thing as evidence?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 no, i expected him to talk about purgatory. He spoke about everything except that
@@mattduin7144 like….the reasons he believes purgatory doesn’t exist…?
I’m just confused how someone can make a positive argument about something they don’t believe in.
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 the debate topic is "is purgatory true". He didnt even talk about purgatory
😂 💯💯💯
I'm genuinely surprised at how bad James White is at debating. It's like he doesn't do any preparation at all and only has a surface level understanding of the topic.
He defends the indefensible
That’s how he made his career and it worked for him so why change now?
This is his MO. He is incapable of engaging with anyone's actual arguments instead of whatever he thinks they are arguing.
Seems like White just says many words, speaking in circles, adding Greek for no reason. 👀 Horn, however, was clear and direct in his delivery and got right to the point.
No reason?? Obviously you're not interested in accuracy.
@joycegreer9391 apparently, you didn't watch the video. I'm not even a catholic, but horn was more scriptural than white.
@@jennacalicchio4312 That's not even possible...lol.
@@jennacalicchio4312 purgatory is not biblical
I saw some of the debate on the channel of the church this was hosted in, but I could not find it later.
I'm glad this video exists in case the original was taken off or privatized on UA-cam.
James Whites main strategy is to simply sound convincingly. Make it SOUND like his own position is so orthodox and Trent is just following some weird old traditions of men. But
When looking at scripture, history and the argumentative strength itself without the rhetoric and Blabla, it’s clear that Trent doesn’t just win, he pulls the rug out from
under James Whites feet . He’s got no foundation to stand on other than his Protestant man made traditions
Except that Trent admitted his interpretation was unique and one of a kind. James explained the passage to Trent several times and Trent just glibly talked over it.
Man I hate it when my opponents have developed positions and not the ones I think they have!
even then, i dont think he satisfactorily refuted the strawman he tried to set up
Thanks Trent, I always like watching your debates and discussions.
Purgatory was one of the easiest Church doctrines to accept because it lines up with the sense of justice we're given and particularly from a more OSAS evangelical environment, it makes sense of many passages. Like how can your sins be covered by doing good works if you're already saved, and how will you be punished for sin if you're already saved?
Maybe Romans 8:1, but my English isn't that great
@@BlakeRatliff-h8b But what if you are no longer in Christ? Even ignoring the unforgiving servant pr the fact that you can be a part of the true vine and still be cut off, there are people who were in Christ who then fell away. Paul also uses language that leads to this conclusion where faith is like a race you must run to the end lest having been in Christ you falter at the end
@@TheThreatenedSwanAgane, sorry for my English. But I think John 6:39 answers that?
@@BlakeRatliff-h8b And? We believe in that. Some _are_ predestined, and the faithlessness of man does not negate the faithfulness of Christ. He won't lose anyone through his own actions. People disqualify themselves through their own sin. You do realize John talks about mortal sin, right? That is sin that makes you lose salvation. You find the same language throughout the old testament where the point is despite the destiny of Israel as a whole, people could stray, but it was not God abandoning them it was the other way around
@@TheThreatenedSwanSo ultimately, God is not powerful enough to save me from my sin. It's ultimately up to my strength and my power to save myself. So I am equal to God then in power. Right?
Opening remark recap:
1) Trent: CCC definition, Bible citations, deductive argumentation, parallels with Malachi 3, non Catholic scholars , cites Calvin himself, early church fathers all in a PowerPoint presentation
2) James: references he doesn't believe the Pope believes this, the dogma was clearer during the reformation, ~ 10mins on indulgences, rebuts the 1cor citation , a claim is made Catholics in their belief in purgatory cannot have peace.
Reminder: The debate is on if the doctrine of purgatory is true
So what's the problem?
@@gideondavid30are you serious?
@@gideondavid30 no problem. Trent formulated an extensive positive argument for and James was mostly saying he disagreed and pointed to other things without addressing Trent's arguments. You could be atheist and at least acknowledge Trent was more prepared and James's arguments left you wanting . That's all
@@gideondavid30What’s the problem? Trent pointed out the problem at the beginning of his rebuttal. Instead of giving an opening statement to support his view, James just gave a very poor rebuttal.
kinda ironic, considering White is a sola scriptura believer, but never mentioned any bible verse for this argument
I am currently not a believer in purgatory but love Trent horns debates. Looking forward to learning
You know I would rather believe that there is a purgatory. Here's why, I have family members that had a drug addiction problem and ended up dying from drug abuse. They had been baptized and had a strong belief in God, but they just couldn't shake the addiction.
One who is an addict will do just about anything to get drugs but not go to church or turn to God for help because of their shame. So I find comfort in believing they made it to purgatory and that they are being cleansed before entering heaven, rather than to believe they were damned.
I would hope that any protestant that has dealt with this type of loss or even losing a loved one to suicide would also hope the same for their loved ones and not just think that they went to hell. That would be a pain I would not be able to easily move forward from.
Praying for our hearts to willfully be evangelized by the traditions of the church and the word of God with one faith and one teaching. In Christ our Lord. Amen
Catholic did a lot of Bible quotes out of context.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
02:57 *📜 Trent Horn's Opening Statement on Purgatory*
- Trent Horn presents the Catholic Church's understanding of purgatory as a final purification of the elect.
- He emphasizes that purgatory is not an alternative to heaven or hell, nor a place for sinners to work for their own purification.
- Horn offers two main arguments in favor of purgatory: the argument from spiritual cleansing and the argument from moral correction.
18:10 *🔍 James White's Response to Purgatory*
- James White begins by providing a formal definition of purgatory from a Catholic source.
- He highlights the evolution of language used by Roman Catholicism to describe purgatory over the past 70 years.
- White critiques the concept of purgatory and challenges its biblical and historical basis, aiming to refute Horn's arguments.
19:33 *📜 Understanding the Roman Catholic concept of purgatory*
- Purgatory is seen as a place of purification, not just from attachment to sin, but also from the remission of temporal punishment for sins.
- Roman Catholic theology connects purgatory with the concept of indulgences and the treasury of merit, involving suffering and withdrawal of merit from saints.
- Cardinal Bellarmine and others assert that purgatory could last for many hundreds of years, emphasizing the necessity of undergoing suffering to enter the presence of God.
23:20 *🔥 Interpreting 1 Corinthians 3 in relation to purgatory*
- Paul's metaphor in 1 Corinthians 3 about building on the foundation of Christ is interpreted as referring to postmortem purification.
- The analogy of different materials being tested by fire illustrates how works will be tested and purified by God's judgment.
- The passage does not explicitly mention purgatory but is interpreted to support the concept of purification after death.
26:15 *💬 Critique of the opposing view on purgatory*
- The opponent's rebuttal focuses on denying the existence of purgatory based on his understanding of imputation and the gospel.
- Lack of biblical citation and misrepresentation of purgatory's doctrine and purpose are highlighted.
- The opponent's interpretation of key biblical passages, such as Matthew 5 and 1 Corinthians 3, is challenged, emphasizing the need for a more comprehensive understanding of purgatory's theological nuances.
40:39 *🚀 James White's Opening Statement Critique:*
- James White critiques Trent Horn's opening statement regarding personal relationships, punishment, and the concept of purgatory.
42:17 *📚 Examination of Roman Catholic Beliefs:*
- White discusses the historical consistency of Roman Catholic beliefs regarding purgatory and indulgences.
- He argues that Rome's stance on various doctrinal issues has evolved over time, suggesting a lack of absolute continuity.
- White emphasizes the theological implications of the concept of indulgences and its relation to purgatory.
44:18 *🛡️ Reformation's Emphasis on Justification:*
- White highlights the Reformation's emphasis on justification by faith alone and critiques Roman Catholic views on righteousness and grace.
- He argues that the Reformation restored the biblical doctrine of justification and emphasized direct access to God through Christ's righteousness.
46:11 *💬 White's Rebuttal on Purgatory:*
- White challenges the scriptural basis for purgatory, questioning the concept's absence in the New Testament.
- He asserts that purgatory compromises the essence of the gospel as taught by Paul, emphasizing salvation through Christ's righteousness alone.
48:04 *🕊️ Discussion on Sin and Discipline:*
- White discusses the distinctions between mortal and venial sins and their consequences according to Roman Catholic theology.
- He argues that even minor sins have consequences, citing biblical passages and challenging James' interpretation.
49:12 *📖 Critique of Biblical Support for Purgatory:*
- White critiques James' interpretation of biblical passages and challenges the historical development of purgatory.
- He questions the consistency of Protestant rejection of mortal and venial sins, highlighting theological complexities.
51:50 *💡 Examination of Historical Development:*
- White discusses the historical development of the doctrine of purgatory, citing differing perspectives within Christianity.
- He challenges the notion of a universal and continuous belief in purgatory throughout church history.
01:00:50 *💬 Interpretation of Greek Lexicon in Context*
- Discusses the interpretation of Greek Lexicon in the context of punishment.
01:03:48 *💭 Views on Purification after Death*
- Explores the concept of purification after death for Christians.
- Discusses whether Christians continue to desire sin after death.
01:06:29 *📖 Analysis of 1 Corinthians 3*
- Analyzes 1 Corinthians 3 regarding the building upon the foundation of Christ.
- Explores the symbolism of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw in the context of testing by fire.
01:19:36 *📜 Perspectives on Afterlife in Early Christianity*
- Early Christian views on the afterlife varied widely.
- Key figures like Peter, Paul, and James did not explicitly endorse the concept of postmortem punishments or purification.
01:22:42 *⚖️ Sin, Punishment, and Discipline in Christian Life*
- Christians believe that God disciplines them to morally perfect them.
- The concept of unpleasant discipline aligns with Hebrews 12:11.
01:27:14 *🔥 Interpretation of Punishment and Reward in 1 Corinthians 3*
- Exploring the interpretation of rewards and punishments in 1 Corinthians 3.
- Discussion on the fate of works built with different materials-gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw.
01:31:49 *💬 Theological Interpretation of Romans 4:3-5*
- Analysis of Romans 4:3-5 regarding imputation of righteousness and forgiveness of sins.
- Debate on the role of works in justification and the definition of righteousness by faith.
01:39:04 *🕊️ Theological Response to Luke 23:43 and Purgatory*
- Addressing the argument against Purgatory based on Luke 23:43.
- Explaining how the thief on the cross could still have entered Paradise without contradicting the concept of Purgatory.
01:40:28 *💬 Critique of Church Authority and Biblical Interpretation*
- Challenging the authority of the church to define doctrines like Purgatory.
- Emphasizing the absence of explicit mention of Purgatory in Scripture.
01:42:15 *📜 Anglican Position on Scripture and Purgatory*
- Explaining the doctrinal stance of High Church Anglicans on sola scriptura and purgatory.
- Discussing the theological development within Anglicanism regarding justification and salvation.
01:44:19 *⛪️ Diversity Within Protestantism and Views on Catholic Doctrine*
- Illustrating the spectrum of Protestant views on Catholic teachings.
- Highlighting theological agreements between certain Protestant denominations and Catholicism.
01:45:31 *🔍 Interpretation of "It is Finished" and Confidence in Exegesis*
- Analyzing different interpretations of Jesus' statement "It is finished" on the cross.
- Addressing misconceptions about the meaning of the Greek term and its implications.
01:46:11 *🛡️ Assurance of Salvation and Sanctification After Death*
- Clarifying the Protestant perspective on salvation, sanctification, and sin after death.
- Rejecting the concept of mortal sin and emphasizing justification by faith alone.
01:48:04 *🧭 Purpose of Jesus' Death and the Role of Purgatory*
- Elucidating the necessity of Jesus' death in Catholic theology.
- Distinguishing between the eternal consequences of sin and temporary consequences.
01:49:41 *🕍 Interpretation of Peter's Authority and Confession of Sins*
- Discussing the absence of priesthood in the New Testament and the role of apostles in proclaiming forgiveness.
- Rejecting the sacramental understanding of confession and priesthood.
01:51:50 *📚 Development of Doctrine and Changes in Catholic Teaching*
- Defending the concept of doctrinal development in Catholic theology.
- Exploring different models of purgatory and their evolution over time.
01:53:23 *🌌 Persistence of Sin and Righteousness in the Afterlife*
- Addressing the ongoing struggle with sin after salvation and
01:57:35 *📖 Paul's Use of "Purification"*
- Paul's use of the term "purification" (Zia) is not about purgatory but about suffering loss, as seen in his consistent usage.
- The term in 1 Corinthians 3 refers to the revelation of one's deeds, not purification or punishment.
01:59:18 *🕊️ Arguments for Purgatory*
- Trent presents two arguments for the doctrine of purgatory: sanctification in this life and unpleasant discipline after death.
- Sanctification model suggests that sanctification may continue after death until completion before entering heaven.
02:04:17 *💬 Critique of Roman Catholicism*
- The debate highlights the fundamental disagreement between biblical gospel preaching and Roman Catholic doctrine.
- Criticism is directed towards the notion of imputation of righteousness as a legal fiction in Roman Catholicism.
Thanks 🙏
Already listened through last week, Trent won!
The pope will keep you company in purgatory, enjoy
Trent you rock! James likes to throw out little off topic side jabs at the Catholic faith... one liners delivered with malice. No evidence of charity in his version of Christ
There is no version of chridt there is just christ. There are significant problems found in Roman Catholicism so they are going to be pointed out
Trent, great job! I was there both nights, with my Catholic convert friend and my Church of Christ preacher friend (I know, it sounds like the start of joke 😄). We all agreed you were the clear "winner" in this Purgatory debate. You got James White *thisclose* to admitting a postmortem purification; in fact, I'd say that he did admit it.
He was only a winner in your eyes, because you guys are still blinded, and still in your sin, because you have not been regenerated and born again you’re still blind, and a slave to sin🤷♀️😞
@@carolwilliams383 🤡
@@carolwilliams383That's a great way of not actually showing why we're wrong
Not sure if you have any understanding however Trent only proved he follows a religions doctrine not scripture. 97% of his observation is from catholic doctrine.. following Jesus is the road to heaven. not the road to purgatory.
@@Pastor-BraulioFFL-NYit’s like you didn’t watch the debate. He quoted scripture. And the only claim he made about purgatory (what it is) was that it was a purification process. But what you fundamentally do not understand (because you like to straw man the Catholic position) is that there is no purgatory without the promise of Heaven. And no one cares to require purification in the next life. But you just assume Catholics look forward to purgatory. We do not.
The prodigal son was welcomed by his Father. But then the Father took care of the son, purifying and cleansing him before entering the banquet
I never can understand why so many Protestant preachers spend so much time studying and denying the Catholic Faith. Why if Catholics are wrong then why do they care!!!!! And in history how many Protestants have returned to the Catholic Church after studying the Church teaches.
They care for the same reason Catholics study Protestant positions: to help people come into the what they believe is the fullness of truth and God’s plan for their life.
Especially if you’re a Protestant who thinks Catholicism has a false gospel and thus Catholics essentially need to convert for the first time
@@stormchaser9738 I am very studied Catholic and have never studied Protestant doctrine because I would rather spend my time learning more about my Faith to come to the fullness of truth then live that truth as an example to non-believers. Because as St Robert Bellarmine said and encourages us to say everyday. "I believe all the truths taught by the Catholic Church" An effective way to fight off the devil in times of temptation. I have never heard James White talk about what he believes just what is wrong with what the Catholic Church teaches. St John Henry Newman came to the Church by reading Catholic teachings to prove it was wrong and came to the realization that the Catholic Church was correct and is the one true catholic and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ. Maybe in time James White and others will receive the same grace and return to the fold.
They care
Because Protestantism only holds if Catholicism is false
Problem
For protestors is they now have over 40k different denominations protesting each other
An absolute mess
Learning about the heretics can help you learn your own faith. @patriciagrande311
@@stormchaser9738 Catholics defend the faith.
Ortland has been taken to the woodshed for his misrepresentation of St. John Chrysostom's stance on purgatory.
Clearly Trent Horn won this debate. 👏🎉👏🎉
Yes, he won even before it started!!!!
Agreed. James White was just poor. The fact that he has a PhD… I expected more of a good debate.
@@abiecader
Your degrees and PhD. do not count before God!
Peter a simple fisherman, was chosen by God as the first pope!!! Peter ordained Apostles, baptized pagans and dictated doctrine infallibly!!! God confirmed his decision!! No PhD needed!!!
@@davido3026 With respect. Your response has taken me by surprise? By the way, I agree with you 100%.
I am Catholic, I will defend the faith.
I made some comments, and was challenged by one or two protestants and atheist ask me to substantiate why I say what I said. As I said, if the doctrine of the Church is being challenged and I am asked to defend it, I will do so, which I did by offering a rebuttal.
Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee.
@@abiecader PhD lmao, he's got one from Columbia Evangelical Seminary, an unaccredited online school. He's not a real Doctor of Theology (or Doctor of anything for that matter).
Has an opening statement directly attacking Trent and his religion, claims Trent started the "fangs out" dialogue
Holy cow. I never dreamt it would be this big a smackdown. Trent, you absolutely dominated.
1:23
James: "The term 'unpleasant' doesn't-isn't relevant"
Trent: "okay, well, In Heb 12 it says 'for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant...'"
James: '"If you want to use that term... I would never preach a sermon using that term.."
Trent: "I'm sorry you won't preach what the Bible says."
🤣 A cheeky side of Trent rarely seen. White didn't like the taste of a classic Protestant polemic.
1:23:19
@@trogbison1625thanks !
Ya it seems odd that he doesn’t like the world unpleasant. The scripture actually is stronger than that since it says “painful rather than pleasant…”
You can tell who won the debate by seeing whose comment section is still open.
LOL. I just checked James White channel on this debate and go figure…..comments section disabled😂
The AoMin yt channel doesnt have open comments on most or any of its videos. Some UA-camrs dont, who just choose not to devote time and attention to that.
@@bridgetazaz fair enough!
James white disables the comments on all his videos.
@@robbieg.3462 which is telling.
James did a great job trying to give a clear picture of what purgatory really means in the Catholic Church because Trent clearly presented a polished version of purgatory. Purgatory was d scariest thing growing up in the catholic faith, the church really teaches that a person has to be severely punished for their leftover venial sins and we have to keep praying for them so that God can reduce their punishment lest they be sent to hell.
poor James doesn't want to have to change his life around to follow Christ. much easier to convince oneself of assured salvation
Salvation is clearly assured.
@@brianverslues302Sure kiddo, but I wouldn't bet my eternal soul on it.
Lol you don't seem to understand Trent's position if you joke about this
Even St. Paul didn’t think like that. He said to workout your salvation in fear and trembling and wasn’t assured of his salvation .
Amazing job Trent. Considering most Protestants scoff at how the doctrine of purgatory is unbiblical, you made it seem very hard to argue against!
Really? He is using a one of kind interpretation of Corinthians in order to justify purgatory, and the only reason we found out is because James, after explaining three times what the passage means, finally went through the passage in detail and found out what Trent did. Note, this was a unique interpretation from both a catholic and protestant perspective.
Dear@@coloradodutch7480, using 1 Corinthians 3:12-15 as a reference to Purgatory is a common Biblical text in Catholic circles. It seems so clear.
The "unique interpretation" was talking about a book that spoke of the "works" that are tested by fire, as the converts made by the pastors described in the first part of the chapter. And it was just an interesting proposition.
It's not that White's presentation was bad - which it was - but it was more that his entire approach to the debate was utterly wrongheaded, in that he tried too hard to speak like a pastor. That is, I think he counted on his rhetorical skills to save him in this debate, which they clearly did not.
Also concerning were the many times I feel "the real James White" burst out. Comments like, "fangs out," and, "that was a cheap shot and you know it and everyone in the audience knows it too," as though JW has never done any such thing.
I couldn't help but notice, too, all the rude and immature little expressions on JW's face whenever Trent was speaking. Take note, and ask yourself if that's the behavior of someone "who understands who The Blessed Man is"?
He literally did it in his closing statement lol
@@thebenzaga
Did what, exactly?
@@TheJason909 What James White called a cheap shot. When Trent said “you don’t preach what the bible says” James called it a cheap shot. Then in James whites closing statement he said something along the lines of Biblical Christianity vs Catholicism
purgatory goes directly against the parable of the workers that all got the same pay even though they worked different amounts
Hi Sven
Can you elaborate on your point, because I don‘t see how this would contradict purgatory.
YES. This debate was so troubling to hear.
We have been saved by FAITH, and NOT BY WORKS, so that no one should boast! What Christ did on the cross was sufficient enough! The whole Old Testament was building up to this moment of His death! We were sacrificed by Christ, why would we need further sanctification! Why would God send His son, but only give us a portion of the sanctification, and expect us to do the rest? THE BLOOD OF CHRIST WAS ENOUGH!
If we are rejecting this notion or twisting the idea, then we suddenly become like all of the other false religions out there that focus on works, and spend their whole life ‘working’ to get into Paradise, and then forget to have a relationship with the one true God at all!
This is what happened with the poor Jewish people.. they became SO obsessed about all the Mosaic laws that they forgot to actually seek a relationship with YAHWEH.
Our works are filthy rags, we will never be good enough. Even if we could lead a sinless life, we would still be stained with sin because of the fall.
CHRIST YESHUA PAID IT ALL! Thank you God for making THE WAY for us, and giving us your Son.
I bless everyone in the name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. God bless everyone, and ask for God to protect your heart from false teachings and to allow His truth to always be made apparent to you.
✝️✝️✝️
@@carrie_k Hi Carrie
Thanks for your answer. I belive that the sacrifice of Christ was enough to save us, I would even say that one drop of His blood would have been enough to save all of humanity. However I also belive that we are commanded to love Good and our neighbour and love requires works. For exmple would a wife belive her husband when he tells her, I love you, but then he never helps her in any way?
If the Bible itself were so easy to understand, you would not need an interpreter.
@@carrie_k Matthew 7:21-23
Text:
• 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”
• 22 “On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’”
• 23 “And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’”
So right here Jesus is saying unless you do the will of my father. What is the will? Is that works or belief? He also says depart from me you workers of lawlessness. What does lawlessness means? Someone who doesn’t obey laws. So you need to do the will of the father and obey the laws which are works.
You should have pressed James on the issue of forgiveness of sins: Why would Jesus bestow on the Apostles this unique power, if all sins were "automatically" forgiven just by one's intellectual act of faith? How do you get your sins forgiven, mr James?
The key to understanding the meaning of John 20:23 lies in the previous two verses: “Again Jesus said, ‘Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.’ And with that he breathed on them and said, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.’” He sent them, as He is sending us, to bring the good news of the way to salvation and heaven to the whole world. Jesus was leaving the earth physically but promised God would be with them in the person of the Holy Spirit living in them. As they proclaimed the gospel, they could honestly tell people who believed in that message that their sins were forgiven, and they could honestly tell people that did not believe in the message that their sins were not forgiven and that they stand condemned in God’s eyes. “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him” (John 3:36).
Assuming you believe and are filled with The Holy Spirit, you have the authority to tell a person if they are under condemnation if they reject Christ. You also have the authority to tell a person they are saved based on their profession of faith and remind then that they are under no condemnation in Jesus Christ.
The disciples represent us as a body... not just limited to a select priesthood. 1 Peter 2:9 says, "You are a royal priesthood and a priestly kingdom," and Revelation [5:10], "Through your blood you have made us into priests and kings."
If a selected priesthood limited to only a handful of priests that forgive sins is true, these passages are incorrect.
The disciples never desired to take the seat of Christ and priests who act as a mediator before God are anti-Christ. They take glory from The One who came to make a way and is THE ONLY way to The Father. Not a priest forgiving you. The levitical priesthood would point to Christ being our Great High Priest. The only one who can atone for your sins.
@@ElloSheerio Jesus didn't say "go and tell others whether they're free from sin or not", but "if you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained", so he have them the power to forgive sins, not just to state a fact. He also gave them authority to teach, baptize, anoint and heal. And we know from Jesus himself that the miracle of forgiveness is greater than that of healing a leper.
As to the priesthood - if Jesus is the High Priest, there should also be other priests (Cohens) and servers (Levites), and then the laity. Our universal priesthood relates to our ability and obligation to intercede for others before God, which also includes intercession of the saints in Heaven.
But it's not the same thing as intercession of the priest who represents Christ himself. The laity have no authority to forgive sins or to celebrate the Eucharist. Even Saint Mary doesn't have it, though she's the greatest of all creation.
Please don't try being wiser than the 1990 years old Church. Only Peter received the Keys of the Kingdom and the authority to guard it against error. Neither Luther nor Calvin, nor any other self-proclaimed pastor has any authority.
James White ran into a Titan.
Good job Trent. Trent brought many biblical texts to the table - many from the Old Testament
James did 2 things.
1. Ridiculed the Catholic faith - (ridiculing is a Protestant thing since they have nothing constructive to say and deny what the bible says)
2. Would engage only in discussing one bible text, everything else was rubbished
He is totally out of his depth when up against Trent. If he wasn't so damned proud, he would be humbled by it. Alas...
I almost expects this performance by White. He had mentioned this last year in his radio show how he has many debates this year and how he doesn’t have time for them and how he has a crew of folks who does some of his homework for him.
I think it’s time James White hang up the gloves. He’s getting older and isn’t finding time to perform anymore.
At some point, we have to stop taking James White as a serious apologist. These debates were completely embarrassing for him. Juvenile, stale intellect.
His debates from many years ago against people like Bart Ehrman or Muslim apologists or members of the LDS church were pretty good from what I remember.
But you’re right. I mean this as charitably as possible but White is not a young man anymore and it seems like his mind is beginning to slip.
Where is that point?
Who is going to stop him?
He is his own authority!!!
r protestants!!!! Doctrine and apologetics do not depend on the age, hability or intelligence of the presenter!!!
"Serious apologist" is a contradiction.
@@zacharynelson5731 His debate with Ehrman was terrible he just kept ranting about postmodernism, bringing up the Quran and saying that low error rates in medieval copying by trained copyists mean that the copying of the oldest manuscripts must be likewise even though it was done by amateurs.
I think the best reason to believe in this doctrine is that the Jews did and still believe in praying for and to people who have passed on. And the fact that there is support for purgatory in Maccabees.
"You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews." *[John 4:22]* Our Lord did not break away from Judaism; he fulfilled its prophesies and completed it.
The line protestants often use to argue against purgatory is almost always reworded and misstated the same way they jumble around the straightforward message of The Epistle of James.
They often say as White did in this debate, that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." But this is not what that passage says.
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. *[2 Corinthians 5:8-9]*
The passage as reworded by White is not the same as it appears in the scriptures. He has changed the words around so that it fits with his beliefs.
Also, if being absent from the body means one was present with the Lord, why then does the very next passage state that we must labour whether absent or present in the body?
It wasn't until I started watching the How to Be Christian channel that I realized how often White and Durbin change scriptures like this.
I'm glad Trent called White out on this, but I wish he would have pressed him a bit more.
Are you under the impression that the scripture you provided means we labour when we are absent from the body?
Interesting.
It says, “wherefore we labour”….this seems to be present tense.
“That”….this seems to mean…so that, or so then
“Whether present or absent”….this seems to say whatever state we will be in…future tense…
“We may be accepted of Him”….again…in that future state.
How, exactly, are YOU interpreting this?
Better yet, has “the church” interpreted this? Or was your post your own private interpretation?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303
You know...
You are correct about that specific passage.
It does not say what I thought it did. Or at least, I need to research [2 Corinthians 5:9] more.
With that said, it does not change the fact that [2 Corinthians 5:8] - the previous passage - does not say that there is no purgatory. It does not say what James says it does, and protestants usually use that faulty interpretation against the teaching of purgatory.
As an aside, [2 Corinthians 5:9] "Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him." is against faith alone.
@@franciscorafael2582 we can agree that no passage explicitly denies purgatory.
We are saved through Jesus, He did what we could not do.
Jesus❤️✝️ He took out place, "it is finished" He said.
How to Christian is an amazing channel
As a Byzantine Catholic, it irks me so much when people refer to all of us Catholics as Roman Catholics
Let them be brother, the Church is universal hence it is Catholic. Prots are ignorant of this.
It is indeed an ill-inteded nickname that started being used around the 16th century by protestants to belittle the universal authority of the Catholic Church [so they could "justify" their existence and their man-made churches]. But you stay strong and pray for them, brother. God Bless. The Catholic Church has many rites, all of them beautiful and legit.
All Catholics are Roman Catholics. Pope Innocent III, Eius exemplo, Dec. 18, 1208: “By the heart we believe and by the mouth we confess the one Church, not of heretics, but the Holy Roman, Catholic, and Apostolic Church outside of which we believe that no one is saved.”
I'm a Latin Rite/Roman Catholic too but hearing them generalize us all as roman catholics is just so cringy most especially I have other friends who are from different rites of the Catholic Church. Like dude there is a reason why we are THE Universal Church.
@@elle9082 Is the statement of faith expressed by Pope Innocent III only addressed to Latin Rite Catholics or to the universal church?
Was looking forward to this debate but it became pretty painful and almost unbearable to watch with how little James White actually knows about what the Catholic Church teaches, how doctrine develops and is understood within Christian history or even the difference between doctrine and Dogma. He used a lot of linguistic gymnastics to incorrectly twist what the Catholic Church believes into something unidentifiable just to fit his agenda without proving anything except his lack of knowledge about the Catholic Church. Sadly, he was defensive from the beginning while failing to clearly identify his position.There were so many holes in his debate. I thought Trent was very articulate, clear in his well-rounded points and basically has history on his side.
Great debate, thank you for posting this Trent
Had the joy of seeing this in person and meeting Trent. Suffice to say, he is extremely intellectual and introvertedly extroverted as well.😂 All jokes aside, Trent won in my book and it was a lot of fun.
James is a great entertainer thats why some people think he got the upper hand in this debate but he did not give any evidence for his beliefs. Thank you James for turning people into the True Church, The Catholic Church
So true. Thank you James White because of your attitude towards our Catholic Faith draw a lot of people to dig deep to find out the truth that Our Lord Jesus founded the Holy Catholic church. May The Holy Spirit softens your heart that you will truly love God and love people. Less arrogant and more friendly to respect our Catholic faith.
the roman catholic doctrine of purgatory was not even fully established until the 2nd council of lyons in 1274 a.d. luther correctly added 2nd macabees as apochrapha because of 2 reasons: macabees 2 was a historical description of the siege of jerusalem in the great rebellion against the greek helenistic king of syria, antionichus, not a spiritual work. . works of the o.t. were written by prophets. there were no prophets from 400 b.c. until Christ. therefore luther correctly removed 2nd macabees as scripture.
I've been watching debates like this for a long time, and I've been won over to the perspective of the Catholic Church. I want to convert, but when I expressed this to my wife she said she doesn't want to be married to someone who is Catholic. Do you have any advice on how I should move forward? I want to be a part of the One True Church but I also don't want to threaten my marriage.
Offer this intention to God through Christ who is literally and transubstantially present in the Holy Eucharist 🙏🙏🙏
My Dad gave up his decade long habit of smoking because of my mom's devotion to a novena and frequent visit to the blessed sacrament 🙏🙏
Fyi, my dad didn't experience any withdrawal symptoms as he left smoking few days after the novena🙏
Pray and be patient. Ask the Holy Spirit to guide your thoughts, actions and words on this matter. Jesus would not want your marriage destroyed.
Pray
But don’t forget Luke 14 Jesus said you must love Me over all
Brother, ask the Blessed Mother to pray for you. She’s the greatest intercessor and prays for her children and there are countless miracles in the most hopeless situations. Pray, hope and don’t worry as St Padre Pio says.
“With man this is impossible, with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26
I suggest you id your wife love you she should respect your decision
James White nailed it with his opening. Purgatory is an extra-atonement. Jesus said it is "finished" and he didn't say to the criminal at his crucifixion, "today you will go to purgatory and I'll see you later".
Good debate, thanks. I like Hebrews 12:29 "God is a consuming Fire" and how the Seraphim are the "burning ones" to see how we are each called to become On-Fire Christians and therefore must go through this purgation this purification until we are glowing hot on-fire with His love and purity and holiness. Refiner's Fire, it is our one desire, to be holy, like Him. Amen.
It’s unbelievable when people still fall for the scam of purgatory….
I know this is a sinful attitude because we all know how it would go, but I would love to watch Trent debate Mike Winger
I’m pretty sure Trent has been trying to get him to debate and Mike Winger won’t.
That's what I was thinking because I know Mike is aware of the videos that Trent makes in response to his videos. There was once a time that I would watch Mike for hours back when I was Protestant. It was Mike's attitude that first made me see the anti-catholicism in myself (that was based on nothing but ignorance) Now when I hear Mike speak about Catholicism I hear nothing but anger and sarcasm. He tries to come across as extremely confident in his position but I think it speaks volumes if he isn't willing to debate. This is where I have to give James some credit for at least trying.
It’s funny how James White proclaims scripture as his final authority and then misquotes it when it doesn’t line up with his argument.
Can you give an example of him doing this?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 56:47 James White says “too be absent from the body is to be present with the lord” trying to quote 2 Corinthians 5:8-9 to prove his point, this is a lazy paraphrase at best and at worst it is making up his own scriptures to align with his beliefs and stating them as if he is quoting the Bible.
@@wezelofone ”we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.“
2 Corinthians 5:8
2 locations are mentioned here….is there a 3rd that I’m missing?
@@fellow_servant_jamesk8303 the question was about James misquoting scripture to better align with his personal beliefs. You asked for an example, I provided one, in this very video, that you are commenting on.
@@wezelofone right. I’m trying to ascertain how his paraphrase or rewording of that scripture is so far off base from its original meaning
I’m trying to understand how the meaning would be significantly different had he quoted the scripture exactly, since that seems to be the issue at hand from your response.
45 minutes in and James White is completely outmatched, he’s rude and disrespectful, he is indeed offering scoffing as arguments but then has the gall to act like Horns criticism of his behavior is a shot across the bow and Horn is turning the debate to an uncivil tone.
No Mr White it is you and your snide tone throughout the entire discussion.
I am a Protestant that’s starting to lean towards Catholicism White is certainly helping me with my decision.
Were you even watching the video? Trent's snide response about White's opening statement said a great deal about his attitude being ungracious. It simply wasn't warranted on any level. I saw no disrespect from White but plenty from Horn and some quite weak debating methodology. A later response from Horn was full of deflections and lacking any scriptural weight including an irrelevant comment about Luther and the church they were in and its belief about baptism etc.
Thanks!