Universal History: Beowulf - with Richard Rohlin
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- Опубліковано 28 лип 2024
- In this episode of my Universal History series with Richard Rohlin, we discuss the Old English poem, Beowulf. Also, stay tuned for an online course we will host in the coming months about Beowulf from a symbolic perspective.
Support Richard’s project on Patreon: / strangeowlgames
Universal History playlist: • Universal History
Timestamps:
00:00:00 - Coming up next...
00:00:36 - Intro music
00:01:02 - Announcements from Richard
00:04:47 - Upcoming online course on Beowulf
00:06:21 - Introduction to Beowulf
00:10:42 - The author of Beowulf
00:13:10 - Apocryphal Christian literature preserved
00:17:00 - The Beowulf character and the 3 monsters
00:20:24 - Grendel and the Book of Enoch
00:23:46 - How did the giants re-emerge?
00:31:03 - How is there still a line of Cain after the flood?
00:32:01 - Giants representing civilization
00:35:51 - Links to the Book of Enoch
00:39:09 - The name of Grendel
00:40:49 - Grendel's mother: the siren
00:42:46 - The idolatry of the Danes
00:46:19 - Homilary
00:48:33 - The arkenstone
00:49:29 - Homily 16: hell
00:57:56 - What's great about the Beowulf poem
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Nothing on UA-cam hypes me up more than a new Episode of Universal History. I hope these gents keep up the amazing work. I wish Rohlin would do a podcast using his incredible encyclopedic knowledge, or at least write us some books lol
This
True.
As a Catholic, this series deepens my moral imagination and reminds me why I became Christian in the first place. Thank y’all!
The Universal History series would make an epic topic for a documentary series. It always inspires me to buy more obscure books 😅
To add to your discussion about giants and civilisation, see the Anglo Saxon poem "The Ruin". It describes a Roman ruin (the first cities in Britain were Roman) as the "handiwork of giants", "enta geweorc" in Old English.
Cities predate Roman occupation of Britain. The Celtic Oppidiums. ( I may have mispelled that, I don't know).
I think the moral of the story of Grendel's Mother falling to the Giant sword is that evil will unwittingly forge and offer to you the very weapon you will need to destroy it.
The One ring comes to mind
@@NaturalStateWingChun Indeed it was almost but not quite a verbatum quote of Tolkien's.
Hard to universalise this one, chaps, look forward to it! People may enjoy this analysis vid as a supplement: "№17 Beowulf's Bane | Anglo-Saxon origins & the eternal evils" Audience comment: "My god it was great, really set my mind alive. Haven't felt like this since peterson started the bible lectures."
In this series they do seem to celebrate both the culturally particular aspects of things as well as the way that they participate in a more universal Christian pattern. I know that's what they named this series, but do you actually think they over-emphasize the universal nature of the subjects they discuss?
@@maximosmagyar9653 a little, yes, in a negation of the particular. Even implicitly. But i'm glad it all exists. I mentioned in our dialogue that people are allergic to saying 'Anglo-Saxon' and Pageau has hosted two talks with Roland around the subject, so i'm glad for that-people need to be comfortable saying the word.
Awesome! I just did a video for Christmas that touched on Grendel's similarities to the Grinch. You guys took something as "cute" as Groundhog Day and revealed its cosmic implications. I look forward to seeing what you've gleaned from something as gritty and manly as Beowulf.
Average Tolkien fan running to a Pageau video.
Welcome to the bottomless well.
Welcome. You’re in for a treat.
Y'all need to focus on this podcast more it's probably the best work out there
Wonderful video as always!! Reminds me of this passage from the Zohar:
"There was a certain male who came into the world from the spirit of the side of Cain, and they called him Tubal-cain. And a certain female emerged with him, and human beings go astray after her, and she was called Naamah... And Naamah makes a roaring noise and cleaves to her side, and she still survives. And her dwelling is among the breakers of the great sea, and she goes out and makes sport with men, warming herself on them in dreams with human desire, and cleaving to them... The sons that she bears from mortal men present themselves to the females among mankind and they become pregnant by them and bear spirits. And they all go to ancient Lilith and she rears them."
“Reversing Hermon” by Michael Heiser had a shocking number of parallels to this discussion. If you have not read him yet, you absolutely should. He was a world-class biblical scholar, irrespective of the stream of Christianity one finds themself in.
After hearing your deep dive into Beowulf, you have me convinced of the original poet’s intent.
Yeah, it's a bit sad how long does it take for these things to penetrate. I was hoping for some discussion between them while Michael was still alive.
Many are set in tradition and will not go about reading from protestant scholar.
For anyone interested he hosted naked bible podcast that is freely available.
If you're into woo-woo fringepop321 was his outlet as well and questions allowed might be worth checking out.
For starters search for Heiser logos documentary here on UA-cam.
It all fits together, doesn't it?😊 Genesis is real history and we are all far closer to it then we can really realize (we are more affected by modernism and the evolution narrative than we realize, even if you don't believe it.)
If you're new to Heiser, the book to start with is The Unseen Realm. Heiser's work has a lot in common with that of Fr Stephen DeYoung, of the Lord of Spirits podcast.
@@arimathean4128 Thanks. I have read “Unseen Realm”, along with “Demons” and most of “Angels”. I do think you are right that “Unseen Realm” is probably the better starting work as it lays out the case in a gentler fashion for people who have never been exposed to this type of worldview. But “Reversing Hermon” is the more topical for the above discussion, and, in my opinion, an even more interesting read. But both are fantastic.
@@J.Tom.S Thanks. I have "Reversing Hermon" but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. I'll move it up on my reading list, along with 1 Enoch.
Thanks for this interesting discussion! I read Beowulf as an undergraduate in my 20s (back in the mid-1980s). The professor raised many of the issues brought up here and I believe he came at his interpretation from a Christian perspective. I remember a main theme he developed was how the further away from his community Beowulf got, the more he became like a monster himself. Something like that. It's been a while. We also read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which has become a favorite of mine. I read it again a couple years ago and was more surprised this time around by the mixture of Christian and Pagan themes than I was when I first read it. Your discussion has prompted me to dig out the newer translation of Beowulf that my son read in college and revisit the text.
Okay, now this is epic
Richard, if you want to build some hype for your RPG, some videos about how you designed the setting and rules / game design would be super interesting
This and the last universal history are the best ones yet, please do more on these topics!!!
I loved your lecture. I recently watched a Beowulf video to prepare myself so I could follow this lecture. Richard , you are so knowledgable on this subject. I love learning from both of you.
In reguard to the idea of multiple gods not being Christian, this is a more modern mindset. If you have read Michael Heiser's book (Bible Scholar), The Unseen Realm, he talks a lot about the Counsel of gods in the old testament. He said the Bible must be read and understood in the context it was written. To do this you must understand the ancient mindset, which is what you and Jonathan talk about too. Michael Heiser says there is a counsel of gods in the old testament but that the Christian/Jewish God is the God above all other Gods. He also incorporates information from Enoch and other ancient literature to acurately understand the Bible. He said the NT Disciples would have had knowledge of these writings because they were commonly known at that time. He said when the the Tower of Bable was destroyed God gave some of the lesser gods authority over certain people groups and geographical areas. This could be another reason that so many stories are repeated in various cultures. He also talks about the the spirits and monsters that are a part of the full Bible story. It makes one read the Bible with more understanding. I love the idea of Universal History because I do think everything fits together and can only be fully understood by those who use God the Lord as a reference point.
Are you a Gnostic? You think "lesser" gods (you used capital G) are giving you hidden "knowledge" about our God's "true" will? Mate, those are demons. There is no "hidden" knowledge that communing with demons will give you, beyond that which will bring you (possibly eternal) harm, as it did Adam and Eve.
De council of de Ganja gods tell me to breeve de bref of de lyfe fo' eternal knowledge of de Great BONG In De Sky! I breeve de Brefalyfe upon you, dat you may be healed by de great Cannabis Council!
Is that an accurate summary of a "council"? I saw it in a dream so it must be real.
Smoking copious amounts of crack also reveals many hidden secrets, like how to carry full size refrigerators on one arm while riding a bicycle. Is there a Council of Crack too?
Been a long time since you guys mentioned the Goths and raised way more questions than were answered on these mysterious origins. Can't wait to delve deeper
"He's a hardliner when it comes to fairies." Can't explain why this makes me and Jonathan smile so much. Just goofy sounding.
Finally. It has been too long between these!
Between these conversations and the scholarship of Tom Shippey and his book Beowulf and the North Before the Vikings, we have a very full picture of this time period in history. Bravo guys. And if you haven't heard of Tom's book... Highly recommend! Both of you should get together and compare notes. Your work very much compliments each other! ❤
I feel like I'm REALLY late to the party.
I've seen you countless times on interviews with Jordan Peterson but for some reason never bothered to check if you had a youtube channel.
Well, good news for me, now I have a backlog to catch up on. : D
YEEEEESSSSS!!! I hope to meet Richard one day; coolest nerd ever, for serious. Keep these videos coming! Great stuff!
CAN’T WAIT FOR THIS!
Yes. This is what I have been waiting for.
point of clarification: @26m57s, the worst of the four sorts of betrayal in the final circle of Dante’s Inferno is betrayal of *benefactors*. betrayal of i. kin, ii. nations, iii. guests, and iv. *benefactors*, in that ascending order. Generally good otherwise. 🤙🏻
Oh baby let's go! Excited for this one
My teacher made me read Beowulf in 7th grade. It was a short book. But I remember it kind of baffling me in a way that inspired a deep interest in reading and writing. Definitely taking this video as a sign to read Beowulf through myself again.
Apparently it’s a Thomistic proverb: "hominem unius libri timeo" ('I fear the man of a single book').
Really love this iteration of the intro music!!!
Amazing episode
A Beowulf course! Sign me up!
I haven't been able to find any info on Richard's Beowulf class. Has it started yet?
Looking forward to this!
Thank you for the knowledge
This was truly, truly excellent
Thank you both. I definitely hope to participate in your class.
Loved this! And I want the class! ❤
Richard
It would be lovely to get a version of your translation with footnotes, wheather as a publication or just you reeding from it
At long last! It has arrived!
Is there some kind of universal history discord or group chat somewhere to discuss this stuff?
The cavalcade of questions that get answered in these conversations…hell in the north; the burn of frost bite..
Very epic!
49:02 this reminded me of the poem the pearl (by the sir Gawaine poet)
part of what the author seems to do is use images of Mary and combine them with images of the sanctified church and his daughter.
What is the best version of Beowulf to read in preparation for the class Richard will be teaching. (I own Tolkien's translation.)
Richard told me the Ray Liuzza translation is his favorite--it cane out @ the same time as the Seamus Heeney one.
@@russellhoward3866 I bought both the Heany and Liuzza translations. The only Liuzza I could find was used with underlining and stupid marginal notes. (I hate marking up the texts of books. That’s why God created notebooks on day 6.5.)
Search on the publisher's website.
@@russellhoward3866 Thanks for the advise. A new book is on the way.
@@FDosty 👍
Please, do one about the Epic of Gilgamesh
The idea of dog headed men existed in native tribes too particularly mesoamerican tribes. Don’t quote me on that.
I've heard that the folk song " John barleycorn" has some connections with the Beowulf story.
“How did I confuse those two weirdos [Grant Morrison and Neil Gaimen]”
“I don’t know, how could you.”😂
Really interesting about Grendel being a decendent of Cain due to killing of kin and kin meaning fellow humans and the war of God v the giants being behind the flood also. I always thought the significance of the sword Beowulf found underwater was the tools of a place, like languages, are better used in that place, hence why his own sword failed. Why did Germanic people put hell in the north?
To the Germanic peoples, or at least the Norse ( the Norse get over-emphasized due to the lack of other surviving Germanic traditions), Hell is a place of Ice and cold, ruled by the goddesss Hel, daughter of Loki, from which the modern word " Hell" derives. Actually the place was'nt named Hell, it was Nifleheim.
Have you come across the work The Heliand? I’m just discovering it, but it’s a translation of the Gospel written for the Germanic-Saxon people in the early centuries. The author understood that the mindset of the pagan north would be different from the Middle Eastern mind and so translated the Gospel to evangelize the Saxon people. Would be interested if this is something you’ve delved into.
Cool, will have to make time for this. This series and Jonathan helped me get into the Holy Fathers and Fr Rose and convert me to Orthodoxy.
I don’t feel I really need all the archetypal stuff and Imaginal stuff any more, but this series, Beowulf, folklore etc are all very educational and interesting.
If kept in its proper place and not mixed with the spirituality against hesychasm it’s all far better than the Gnostic/hermetic/Jungian/postmodern, consumerism, and government propaganda co-opting of myth, history, and fairy tales pumped 24/7 in entertainment, games and education.
If there are issues with different paths to Orthodoxy having different baggage, be it a softer academic approach that can be soft and move against patristics ceding to the times, or conversely the young guys coming in against that being rude to priests, I do think those coming in this way need to be very careful about Theosophy, process theology, Origenism (Jonathan himself is very careful there), Jung etc and get into the liturgy with a spiritual father that doesn’t allow for those things.
I know that splits with neoliberalism and conservatism via Peterson, but it also has extreme individualism not just from the Peterson side, but also the Gnostic psychedelic side, and on the side of natural/process theology the kind of stuff we saw with the Living Church and Christian esotericism Jonathan addressed in his video with Grail Country.
This overlaps with things like an OCA bishop rejecting the ecumenical councils to be amenable to ecumenicism and modernity and extra-ecclesiastical power in academia, and left wing infiltration, subversion and state influence and pressure through scandal as well as through both Constantinople under the Turks and the infiltration of the Vatican. It involves taking COVID money and deplatforming Abbot Tryphon by Ancient Faith and coincides with lists of who not to listen to as well to avoid these things and has strange overlap with neocon boomer mentalities.
I hope to see Jonathan address this with the more traditionalist priests like Fr Trenham, Fr Turbo, Fr Heers or Fr John Whiteford, or another discourse with Dyer.
Thanks for your work Jonathan and Richard. God bless and have a productive Lent.
@36:35 Richard reaches for two volumes - his own translation. He is just amazing. And adorable, but let me not digress.
I love you guys 👍👍
Beyond his hand written translation, is there a particular edition of Beowulf Richard would recommend?
I don’t know the answer, but I know Tolkien wrote a translation and commentary… I’m drawn to anything by Tolkien lol. So that’s what I’m drawn to
Tolkien.
Pretty cool now to think of the Danes and Geats as Orthodox potentially. BC when I was a protestant and read this. Just assumed they were "catholic"
Are y'all going to go through the Mabinogion at some point?
Listening to this, I just realized that the xenomorph with its acidic blood is like Grendel and his mother
I remember reading a portion of the poem at 17. I conclude the a large part of it must have been derived from early cristeon belfes. I was told that it was pigeon I think I dropped the topic but still it seems undoubtably influenced by cristanty.
The sword thing was interesting as David cut off Goliath's head with Goliath's sword.
Aristotle said that if we knew 5 books really well we would be well-read.
Everytime I hear "kinslaying", I think of Feanor.
great class! two questions: what year do scholars think this story was written and of what thought concerning Beowulf was Tolkien? again very interesting talk
Reupload? I remember watching this a few months ago.
Scenes like the finding of the giants' sword make me think that Conan the Barbarian must have taken some direct inspiration from Beowulf.
Not a bad connection, for a mere castle age knight of course.
@spaak3465 Is that the taunting of longbowmen I hear?
The question is whether it is theologically correct in presupposing that it's good to imply grace outside the Church.
Interesting bit about the giant sword... any similarities between that and Goliath's sword that is held with the ark of the covenant? very interesting
Not sure. From what I understand Beowulf has similar invincibility to King Arthur. It may have something to do with him being king. Not clear on whether a sword is tied into that or not. But, essentially it’s because he was fated to be king.
It's pretty neat if you read the poem, it's said to have a serpent twisting around the hilt. Gives me Garden of Eden vibes.
funnily enough, there are some critical race "scholars" who are grendel sympathizers, and shun beowulf for being a mean mad white man.
i enjoy these series immensely, keep it up!
Well, I’m not gonna use the R-word. But, I certainly understand the level of skepticism for obvious reasons. Plus, Beowulf was a monster slayer. So, there’s that😆
A fistfight in Canada over Beowulf...
Reality never disappoints, that's marvelous.
Anyone here read Headley's re-telling? What did you think?
I plan to read it, but I am ready for it to be a re-telling that reflects the authour's views, and not the poem itself.
When is universal history coming to North America? the song of Hiawatha, Wacousta, the popol Vuhl and many other things.
That's funny. I was just wondering if they would ever touch of Hiawatha. They have done some work on North America, but mostly with traditions of the USA.
Which translation would Richard suggest (other than his own), for Beowulf? Would Tolkien’s be the best, since Tolkien is translating it from a strong traditional Catholic background?
Can anyone recommend me which edition of Beowulf I should buy?
If any man ever pulls out his own translation of Beowulf in a conversation with me, I'm marrying that man.
Can you refer to a recommended translation please?
Me too !
Which is a good translation for Beowulf?
How's the Tolkien translation of Beowulf?
From chatGPT: Peterson and Pageau, as modern-day oracles, illuminate the path toward self-discovery, bridging the chasm between ancient wisdom and contemporary understanding. Their insights, shimmering like dewdrops on the leaves of our collective knowledge, nourish our thirst for meaning and purpose amidst the chaos of existence.
😂
Richards professor called the poet a "hard liner"?!? Dr. Tom Shippey?!? He's not the only one to use the phrase I suppose but I've heard him use it many times!
My grandmother told me Beowulf was a story of Pagan/Christian conflict. Grendel, his mother represented the ancient pagan gods ir remainder of Nephlim, demanding terrible sacrifices, the dragon lurking evil or Satan. The hero from the North was a saviour, not Christ but perhaps a saint? Can't recall the detail but I loved this podcast.
The intro music has video game "GAME OVER" vibes, but in a nice chill way.
💜
Richard, publish your translation!?
Hi Johnathan, I’ve been watching your videos and interactions with Dr. Peterson and others for some time, thank you for helping us understand the patterns of reality! I just watched an old video of yours, symbolic vs literal interpretation of the Bible, and I have a question which I want to comment on here because I don’t know if you would see this comment under an old video.
Everything you say about intrinsic symbolic nature of reality seems true, but why is it that you cannot conclude with something straightforward such as,
“I believe, as the church has always taught in its creeds and confessions, as historical fact, that there was, in 1st century Palestine, a Jewish man named Jesus from the town of Nazareth. The biblical gospels are an accurate representation of his life and teachings. On a certain day in the early 30s A.D., this historical Jesus of Nazareth was crucified in plain view of the public under the Roman authority of Pontius Pilate, and his dead body was put into a marked tomb. Yet this tomb was found to be empty on the third day after the burial. The most obvious non-supernatural explanation of this event has always been that body was stolen or misplaced somehow. Yet against all reason, his disciples began to teach that they encountered their rabbi Jesus in a resurrected form, in his same flesh and blood body, bearing the marks of his crucifixion, but somehow alive again, eating and drinking normal food with them, but that this was also a transformed and immortal body, which they saw ascend to into heaven and disappear in front of their eyes. They did not understand everything they saw and experienced, but the disciples each went to their deaths because they could not deny what they saw, and they believed they would also be raised to life one day with the same kind of immortal resurrection body which they saw with their own eyes and touched with their hands. The unbeliever will say that this was a lie or a mass hallucination, but I believe the Apostles were neither lying nor hallucinating, but rather they were witnesses to a truly unique miraculous event in the history, a one-of-a-kind one-place-one-time intersection of the divine Logos with the created order. And this event is the center of the cosmos, in which we find all meaning and purpose, through which we have hope for union with God into eternal life and joy.”
Do you not affirm the historicity of the resurrection of Christ as I described? I get the sense that you do, but somehow you always skirt around the question for reasons I do not fully grasp.
Where is the class?
Can the first 6 minutes be put at the end?
You mention that the book of enoch banned by the Pope? I tried searching but can't find anything.
I ordered one of your shirts 2.5 months ago, and I never received the order. Is this normal?
Hi, no. You should reach out to Teespring! Jonathan doesn't deal with any customer service, if there's a mistake then it's on Teespring and they will refund you or send you a new shirt.
Definitely not normal. Talk to teespring.
Luther and Cranmer wrote homilies for the priests to read aloud, it was very common among Protestants of that time to read written homilies. The avoidance of it today is the aberration. But actually a lot of protestant pastors still do it; that is what that whole plagiarism scandal in the SBC was about
Beowulf is the story of man’s battle w addiction/impulsive behaviors and all it’s consequences. Grendel is symbolic of the beast man turns to when “drunk”
What translation is recommended?
I have heard good things about Tolkien's translation. I was actually surprised they didn't mention it.
@@lausdeo4944 as an alternative try that by Seamus Heaney
I think the Poem is fairly clear that Beowulf is meant to reflect the pre-Christian Godfearers, and set him against the pagans of the North. The idea being that just because paganism was the main religion of the Germanic peoples, and the Scandinavians in particular. Still, God had a remnant of righteous Gentiles (like Cornelius from the Book of Acts).
This is why, despite Beowulf clearly being a worshipper of the God of gods, the Poem never mentions Christ, or Jesus, or the Apostles, or anything else from the New Testament times. Because Beowulf is Godfearer, and one of the Righteous Gentiles.
Is the end of the angel names (EL) linked to the old god of the Canaanites, EL?
The one Yahweh kinda blends with to become the God of the Israelites?
The Semitic EL is just the generic word for God or a god. The Arabic Allah and Hebrew Elohim come from the same root. (Elohim is in plural form, which serves as an intensifier.) So, yes, they are linked.
@@arimathean4128 thanks, that’s super cool
So basically I just realized how much Beowulf poem is in The Hobbit
Top keks
Starway to Pageau
LARPagans can cope & seethe all they want; Beowulf will still remain a Christian story at the end of the day.
Indeed! Christ is King!
So true!
Plus, he did have some cool weapons. Can’t remember the exact names. The book is a hard read. But, worth it if you’re a young impressionable male interested in warrior stories and such.
When your religion is just a Frankenstein of every pagan religion then I guess everything pagan becomes Christian
How is it Christian? Beowulfs adventures are all motivated by his want for fame, glory and material wealth. There are a few references to genesis and God as a sort of diety that controls fate, but none of Jesus christ.
Yo, Johnathan! Put this guy in contact with Peterson! He would be perfect for Peterson’s school he is trying to get off the ground.
Role playing Owl just like Moloch
Or Lilith
"Down from the moorlands misting fells came Grendel stalking, God's brand was on him"
+