The Garden of Eden as Cosmic Structure - St-Ephrem the Syrian
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- Опубліковано 23 вер 2024
- I go through the image of the Garden of Eden presented in St-Ephrem the Syrian's Hymns on Paradise, discussing how it is a structure of being and experience and relating it to other works, especially St-Gregory of Nyssa's Life of Moses.
The talk was given at Holy Nativity Mission, an Orthodox parish in Sreveport Louisiana in May 2019.
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The music at the opening is Russian Eastern Overture, by Rimsky Korsakov.
it’s crazy how this is just available for free on UA-cam. what a blessing to have you share you knowledge, thank you so much, this has been endlessly insightful and eye opening
You have helped me find and love faith again. Orthodoxy is so beautiful.
Pray for me
even though I'm not a practicing Christian or for that matter any religion, I found Jonathan's talks endlessly interesting. What I once saw as mumbo jumbo superstitious non sense I know see as ancient wisdom and understanding encoded in endless symbols which ultimately return to the same truth. This is great. Thanks a lot Jonathan for opening my eyes to new ways of seeing the world
poorenglishjuggler I’m so excited for you! Happy journey and continued discovery.
Right on brother! Keep on checking into the bible u will find its pretty against religion aswell
Hey OP, how are you doing today? What kind of path have you taken since you wrote this comment two years ago? I'm genuinly curious :).
I had to quit Christianity in order to truly follow Jesus...
@@EnergyCenterTV Did you leave the true Church of Christ, or another sext?
After nearly two years of watching Johnathan I'm finally beginning to fully understand his point of view. It took a lot of time ut I'm glad I stuck to it. His talks are extremely edifying! God Bless you Johnathan.
byaringan13 I think of all the listening like absorption. I’m a sponge, a very lousy sponge, but I keep trying to absorb Jonathan’s way of seeing reality. I think it’s so important.
Symbolism Happens hahahaha
HIs brother Matthieu's book The Language of Creation can help clear this up A LOT
@@kjekelle96 yes! I started watching Jonathan a couple months ago, and ever since I started reading Matthieu's book in early July I'm capable of understanding Jonathan's videos so much better. I'm already about to finish my 1st readthrough and once I do it I'll revisit JP's "What is Symbolism" playlist with this new hindsight of having read the book. I also plan on rereading the book at least one more time, watch reviews of the book on YT and make my way through Jonathan's reading list and his "Symbolism in Religion and Christianity" playlist. Sorry for the long comment lol
@@santiagodiaz3358 Enjoy! And try te keep it simple or something ;)
Ponytail Jonathan is best Jonathan
About remembering being the connection to God,
I am reminded of the thief on the cross next to Jesus saying “remember me when you enter your kingdom “
Wow , also “Do this in remembrance of Me” taking the body and blood of Christ connects you to Him.
I’ll remember this forever, thanks so much
I thought of Solzhenitsyn's, "Men Have Forgotten God."
I am Catholic, not orthodox, but I find your insights useful and, dare I say, poetic. Thank you, and I hope God blesses you.
St. Ephraim the Syrian is pre-schism. He is Catholic and has been proclaimed a Doctor of the Church. The tradition of the Church Fathers is our tradition just as much as the Orthodox tradition. Continue to pray for unity between East and West!
Fantastic Mr. Pageau. Really expanding my perspective as I try to put away my materialst lense. As someone who did biblical studies in a protestant university my mind is constantly blown! Thanks to God!
Give it up, (ego attachment? materialism, false idol worship?) to a higher order,
and you shall receive blessing.
This lecture is truly filled with pearls 🕯🤍
Thank you Jonathon for bringing out the meaning and the powerful stories embedded within western religion, liturgy, symbolism and iconography. You have much to teach the priests, ministers and church leaders who have forgotten the power of these symbols and stories. Too many of these ministers ramble through these powerful stories - leaving their flock bereft of deeper meaning, and deeper spiritual experience.
Very grateful for this Jonathan
Your work is amazing! Regards from Brazil.
Ah, nice to see a fellow brazilian here! And, indeed, this channel is really good.
🇧🇷shout out from Santa Catarina
What our consciousness does for the chair, Christ does for us. E Pluribus Unum. Out of many, one.
Thank God for the Pageau brothers and Jordan Peterson.
Can you say this agian but in a different way. I think what your saying is interesting but it’s unclear to me but I want to hear you
The book "Fire Within" by Fr. Thomas Dubay is one of the best volumes on mystical theology, if you would like to better understand the "darkness" involved in the process of purification and sanctification.
Just started reading Hymns of Paradise last night, and this showed up in my recommendations this morning. While the algorithm is a little creepy, it made a good recommendation this morning!
What a talk! I start wanting even to begin practicing this stuff a bit more. Your best talk I've heard so far!
I love this. I'm a Mormon and what Jonathan is explaining the same cosmological structure Joseph Smith taught (informed by his own visions as St. Ephrem was). It has been neglected and abused in our tradition, and I've been working for years now to show anyone who will listen how beautiful, immediate, and present it is. I'm grateful for you, Jonathan.
Saint Ephrem, got that knowledge, wisdom, and understanding. 🙏🙏 I’m fact, most of the fathers have this understanding of the fall. Irenaeus has a breath taking account of it as well. My goodness, how must the Western world pick up the Fathers and think,
Who are these strangers? From whence did they come? Why do they sound so foreign to our speech, so different from our understanding?
We have a lot to learn simply by reading the Fathers. Thinks for this talk.
These images - like 34:20 - are mind bending, love it! Thank you Mr Pageau
Jonathan, sincerely thank you for the work you do, it is very special.
Thank you Jonathan! I really enjoyed this talk and the q and a . Lots to think about
Thank you for sharing your work Jonathan! 🌹I wish I knew, all you know. Fascinating!
All the bits and pieces! This, “Coming down the mountain” or falling farther away from...
And this “edge” perspective, in part 2!!
Really enjoying receiving this information from you! 💛🧡❤️
An interesting thought is that St Ephrem was born in Nisibis which is a mountainous area in Upper Mesopotamia. If you view the Garden of Eden as the original safe place that mankind was created and lived in, where they lived with God, who also created the Garden When they ate Fruit of Knowledge and became conscious, they had to move out of the Garden and into the dangerous world. The same way we eventually have to move out from our own fathers safe home when we are grown up and conscious, to also go to a new and potentially dangerous place to create our new home.
thank you Jonathan Pageau. I look forward to checking St-Ephrem the Syrian - paradise book.
Finally feel like I'm getting a handle on Pageau's symbolic approach to the Bible and the puzzles of Genesis. THe thorns, the figs, and the rivers. It is exciting. I just never could get the symbolism of movies and art. I do believe in the truth of the symbolic representations. I always thought the mysteries of the life of Jesus had something to do with the origins of human being, Eden, the Fall. I just wish I wasn't so damn old to get started. :)
Thank you for sharing what you’re learning, Jonathan!
You are a gift! Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us ❤☺️
What a great talk. So full, rich. The Garden is so much the crux and the model/forms of what follows. As a symbol, what is the Garden in view of the Trinity? Thanks, Jonathan. This is a great place to start with a deeper study.
Jonathan showing the exit
damn bro you're way more profound than jordan peterson and not a lying subversive piece of shit, no wonder you're stuck @40k subs, much love to you
It took me until about 43 minutes in to fully grasp the concept of the mountain and falling away from the centre. The drawing at the beginning really didn’t help, because it was shaped more like a totem pole than a mountainous garden and I was puzzled at the layout and lack of space but the wheel analogy cleared things up. Thanks Jonathan!
Jhonathan, I would love to read the Fathers you have read. Could you give me a list of the writings/books you have read? Thank you very much. A follower from Mexico!
when a father says he could stay there all night you know you've done a decent job
Amazing lecture. Thank you Jonathan 🙏
Thankyou.. this understanding undercover truth
There are some german scholars who think, that the writings, hymns and poems of st. Ephrem the syrian had some significant influence on the authors (=plural !!) of the quran, although they failed to understand St. Ephrem
That's interesting. Do you remember who they are?
There is a scientific community of mostly european scholars of islam,history, and theology called "inarah"Unfortunately most of their publications are in german and french
inarah.de/
@@nickj5451 i may come too late but here on youtube Thomas Alexander talked about st. Ephrem of Syria and his poems of paradise, and the resemblance with the Quran.
@@mariangelabaker3718 Thanks! Super weird bc I just happen to be writing a paper on St. Ephrem for school right now, draft is due tomorrow haha! Not that it has to do with this exact topic but still cool, I'll check it out : )
@@nickj5451 yeah, right now l don't have the link to the video to make your research easier. Anyway, good luck with your work tomorrow!
Thank you God for this man, his brother and Dr. "World famous" (like if you get the reference) Jordan Peterson. . These men are a great a blessing on many lives
What's the symbolism of the exit sign between your head and mic?
between the mic (representing Jonathan's mode of broadcasting, his connection to us, the wider audience) and Jonathan's head (representing Jonathan) there is the exit door, an escape hatch. You see, if we're truly able to live Jonathan's message --- if we're able to go past the video, go past the mode of broadcasting, and engage Jonathan on a human level, face to face, in front of that exit door --- therein lies our portal, our escape hatch from the restrictive binds of mainstream ideology.
@@chrisc7265 it also functions as an exit in sense of diverting attention from the subject
Really helpful. So, one important take away is that in a traditional world, time is thought of as a degenerative process, that eventually requires a reboot. Technology is a means to delay degeneration. The modern perspective is an inversion of this, where time is a process of perpetual improvement, and change is an escape from the degeneracy of the past. Technology is celebrated as an escape from degeneration.
Love your videos.
Well I think the point of the ideas discussed here is that the improvement is not inexorable or inevitable. Degeneration is the natural state of the fallen world, but Christ represents a path to re-integrate the constituent parts of degenerate creation. At least, that's what I took from it.
@@joshua_tobler Yeah, and you see that represented through rituals like reconciliation, and the general emphasis on forgiveness, and redemption you see in Christianity. Christ prevents existance from being a pointless exercise, as is expressed in something like the image of the ouroboros.
My secular upbringing, however, more or less rejected the idea of the world being fallen, or degeneration being a natural state, which of course makes the idea of Christ, or anything Christ represented, pretty unnecessary. And the consequence of that is being poorly prepared for the experience of degenerative time, and all the headaches that throws your way.
Cyclical is probably a better word. Ancients did not tend to think in lines but circles.
This was amazing! Can you talk about a story outside a Bible where a garment of skin is turned into a garment glory? I'd be really interested to see what that looks like.
This was great Jonathan!
Sounds a lot like C.S. Lewis’s geography of Narnia, especially with regards to the garden of paradise
We need your book on this! Please :)
Also remember the disciple in the Gospel of Mark who the Pharisees’ gang tries to grab, but who leaves behind his garment and runs away naked. So symbolic of the crucifixion resulting in Adam’s return to being naked.
Thank you so much! So inspiring 🙏
So many Christians I know and grew up with would have no idea what this is about. This maybe the most visible of Esoteric Christianity I have come across
🇷🇺☦️🤝☪️🇵🇸You hit the nail on the head, because what you witnessed here is GNOSTIC heresy not Christian Orthodoxy, since St. Ephrem meant it as a metaphor, in a POEM which describes the Garden in SPIRITUAL terms, not literally. Anyone with basic knowledge of Scripture knows that the Garden was at a low place not on a mountain🤦And it wasn't the source of water for the entire earth lol
Yes!
Another thing... Does this structure also bring some clarity to the idea of "spirits in the air" or spirits being "above" us? If climbing the mountain is the way to paradise, the demonic live at some point on the mountain, and will attempt to prevent people from climbing higher. This would give credence to the common notion I've heard that "the demonic ignore people willingly living a sinful life", because they're already living at the bottom of the mountain. It would also give clarity to why so many Saints, like St. Moses, were no longer tempted by demons after they progressed to a certain part in their spiritual life. It's because the demons can't go that high. It could even be an interpretation of why St. Mary of Egypt couldn't enter the Sepulcher... as she attempted to "ascend" (though unintentionally), her shame (maybe brought out by the demonic) prevented her from entering the Church (or "going higher"). Is my intuition correct?
A good explanation of the modern problem, yet as Bret said, it cannot solve it by simply being 'dusted off and taken off the shelf'. I'm one of those trying to connect science and symbolic reality. Pushing content soon and making a new church.
As my question may sound a bit ignorant i would love to see what you think about the different churches that have been made over the time and the symbolism between them how we dont just have one church how there is christian, Catholic, 7th day adventist and so on.
Thoughts for later reference :
40:50 if we think that Adam and Eve had the freedom to go Up and Down the mountain and weren't restrained to just one specific level, it explains Free Will in a more logical(?) manner.
They were different from the Animals because the latter didn't have the right (nor the capacity I guess?) to step Up the mountain.
It also explains why the Serpent was a serpent and not just another celestial being.
unity from multiplicity
There seems to be a direct correlation to the tower of babel as a false, man made garden of eden
Thanks!
As much as I enjoy Johnathan's and say, Paul Vanderklay's, videos I believe they should be scrupulously held to account when talking about things like how we form the category of chair, for example, as opposed to say interpretations of Christian scripture. Not from a place of disrespect, superficiality,, trying to present a particular persona, etc., but rather from a place of honest curiosity and desire to leave our children a habitable planet. I think we've been in a 'meaning crisis' for a long time, at least that's all I've personally known, and that we're hurling faster and faster towards whatever resolution there is. Therefore, I don't want come to any conclusion out of an act of desperation as the clock nears midnight and as such every voice that may have the ability to reach the ears of many people should be held especially accountable for what they say owing to the huge area of responsibility they've voluntarily entered into in order to present their counter crisis answers. Blink.
I remember recently reading the part with Jesus and the poor fig tree. It made me wonder: "Why is that story even there?' Now I get it.
Is it possible, that two of the rivers were obliterated by the Flood? Could it be, that two were obliterated and two were saved as proof of the Flood?
just brilliant,
if you are unable to see sickness in wellness,
you will have to see wellness in sickness.
pride is what prevents us from seeing sickness, in wellness.
Wow that’s a good lecture
Hi Jonathan, I was wondering if you would make a video talking about borrowed pagan symbolism in Christianity and how people talk about the similarities of the story of Christ in prior stories?
There have been so many book recommendation by Pageau and Peterson that I don't actually know which book to start with. I have a quite mild understanding of the meaning of symbolism and how to apply in my reading. I also have a quite mild understanding of Christian existentialism. Which books should I begin with considering my level of understanding?..Something that lays out the holistic, main ideas instead of narrowing in on a specific area.
Read whatever intrigues you. It's best to follow your intuition.
I would like it if someone would do a video on the symbolism of the witch... someone that can be trusted, not someone who wants to talk about spells and overcoming men.
ua-cam.com/video/g3gXZrFxlFE/v-deo.html
I never understand why he doesn’t seem to take it as literal and symbolic, ontological or metaphorical. I like how he took questions in the middle.
My brain gets ticklish
Can someone explain the symbolic role in Orthodox tradition of the Mother of God to me? I understand the Christian grid, psychological grid, and multiple Eastern grids - any of those can be used as reference.
She can't be understood in "grids", She is the mother of Jesus Christ, a real person and our God. Enter into the Church and pray to know Her.
This was a really wonderful and illuminating talk. Do you know of any publications of the hymns in parallel text between the original and English? Thanks!
Your camera set up is absolutely fantastic. Mind me asking what camera you are using?
Not that it is an either/or but Ive always preferred Mary as New Eden vs Mary as New Eve.
The coming together of all things in man, I view as the container of the cosmos. It is the nondual primordial oneness that is ever present. It underlies any internal or external phenomenon. It transcends space and time. It has many names through out human history, center, spirit, self, being.
Есть озвучка на русском?....Очень хочется послушать....
I'm Persian and I didn't know about the Persian gardens.
Meru
❤
saying of Ephraim - @lAco
One question I have, at 1:19:30 you said that St Ephrem had said that God would have allowed Adam & Eve to partake of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil if they had been obedient, since then I assume the knowledge could have been imparted safely and without the potential of the disruption of the hierarchy. I know I had heard this elsewhere as well, anyway is there a scripture or scriptures that this is based on?
Keep the rivers clean
27:29 Proof that God hates figs.
You win
Some monk wrote down his opinions. Why is this important? Could the Saint read Hebrew? Did the Saint know anything about the history of the ancient near east?
Fantastic. I keep telling everybody that you have really come into your own in terms of explaining these ideas, or maybe I’m just now noticing. This might already have been asked, and maybe I’m answering my own question, but isn’t the whole idea of Christ that he is inverting the pyramid, I.e. flipping our traditional ideas of Kingdom and Hierarchy, as in the whole idea of servant leadership? Or is the idea that the ontological hierarchy is maintained in Christ, you might say fulfilled in the sense of his encompassing both the top and the bottom, yet there is a restoration of the idea of genuine love as being the capstone? So there you have it, I think I just answered my own question lol ..Curious your thoughts on that, I have friends that love to talk about the book of revelation as a critique and inversion of the idea of empire per se., as if Empire itself were inherently evil, but I think that’s a bit oversimplified .
Hey Jonathan, do you have any plans to make a video on the movie Ratatouille?
💚💚💚💚
So much depth of knowledge yet I thought I heard you mention “evolution” 🤦🏻♂️
Oh no, he didn't did he?
Genesis isn’t trying to be a material scientific account of creation. It all happened but in a spiritual sense, which is often more real than just the material
He mentions it in the sense that, calling the human being something like "part animal, part angel", is reference to the fact that the body can be fully described, but no physical description exhausts what we clearly and obviously are, and are capable of. Yeah, our bodies work like, and are, animal bodies. That description is true, but not exhaustive.
The first thing religions have to do to become relevant again is get over evolution lmao
Интересный замысел! Жаль плохо понимаю английский. Хотелось бы это видео перевести на русский язык
Can you please please send me this book🙏🙏
Maybe the Buddha was onto something ?
The garden of the mother of God is the cosmos. Eden is the location of the creator at the top of Gods mountain. From his right hand emerges the cosmos. You really need to ask the right people.
Johnson Sandra Harris Helen Allen Karen
24:40 Did adam and eve not have a physical body before they were covered by garments of skin?
Pondering the same🤷🏼♀️
They werent subject to death
And there fore weren’t subject to pain and suffering until they ingested untruth aka evil thru the deception of the evil one
The story indicates God created them with physical bodies before the fall. It’s just that in the fall those bodies were changed to be corruptible unto death. Christ’s resurrected body is physical but not corruptible, as our bodies will be when we are resurrected because corruptible things cannot enter into the eternal. So I think it’s reasonable this is how Adam and Eve started. 1 Corinthians 15 is good teaching for this.
Why do we go back to our origin when we die?
Watch symbols ofan alien sky
Why does Christ curse the fig tree from which Adam covered himself, yet he gives garments of skin?
From my take on what he was explaining is because the fig tree represented the covering they made for themselves. The covering being the hiding of self, hardening of self from truth and God. He went on to say after he cursed the fig tree there is the tearing of the veil in the holy of Hollie’s at Jesus’s death right. So all this represents the veils on the mountain and that Christ was undoing the two veils on the mountain. Tearing aways at the things that separate us from God in order to bring us back into his presence aka ascend back up the mountain
Check out our review and discussion of this amazing presentation by Dr. Pageau here:
ua-cam.com/video/KiN0Quy2TKU/v-deo.html
Why St Ephrem’s text and not the SCRIPTURE???
Not inspired canon, and should only serve as contextual reverence.
Because we’re not sola scriptura. Neither are Protestants bc they ignore verses.
-I love making the apex ^ sign like Peterson
-You're describing how maple syrup is made
-Noah is Adam returned as The Father
-Women change their garments alot
-The Virgin Mary is the God of safespaces
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. and all i hear in the video is "the fathers". Can you explain what Jesus meant here?
Your concern was already addressed by the Fathers. Read here a compilation of their opinions on the matter. (The verse you are alluding to is Mt 23:9, so read more or less at the end of the commentaries to Mt 23:5-12). www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/c2x.htm#bdp
55:54 post nut clarity
man, that yelling kid is really annoying
In the Garden of Eden, the serpent (Enki) was not the bad one. The serpent actually told the truth and Lord God (Enlil) did not tell the truth. I do see evidence of the Serpent as a Symbol of Spiritual Knowledge and as a symbol for Jesus.
John 3 14 Jesus said...
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
In the garden of Eden, the serpent (Enki) gave us ACCESS to intellect and spiritual wisdom, and the Bible says we should be like serpents..
Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16, KJV)
Luke 17:21
“Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”
More Neo-Platonist "Great Chain of Being"? We know better now!
Jesus never called her mother in the Bible. God has no mother. Thats a major difference Christianity has with other father/mother religions. He calls her woman. She is creation as everyone else. Orthodox have some nonne biblical beliefs. There is only Father in our religion. The source. not sun/fathher and moon/mother type like the pagans. Mary is dead waiting for the second coming of Christ as everyone else. Also remember she didnt remain a virgin. So she isnt "the virgin mary".