Top 10 Abstract Strategy Games
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2019
- Join the fellas as they share their ten favorite abstract strategy games!!
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I was watching the video and my 7 year old daughter walked in and said, “why does Tom Vasel look like Mario?”
It can't be unseen
I thought the same thing! 🤣
My wife said the same thing.
I said the same thing (I live alone).
To call a game an "Abstract Strategy" game because it's abstract and has strategy is like calling a house with lights in it a Lighthouse. While I disagree with Sam about whether some of the games on his list fit the "Abstract Strategy" category, I did really like his comment at the end (spoilers) that with so many abstract strategy games being "boring", he was looking for games that had the "feel" of abstract strategy without necessarily fitting tightly into a rigid definition of the genre. In this case I think his list is quite valuable to many gamers who feel the same way.
Abstract strategy games are, for me, defined by the ability of players to think many many moves ahead. Hidden information or luck remove that possibility. All games can be strategic. Lots of games are abstract. But like Zee says it's not "abstract and strategic" it is "abstract strategy". Zee's definition is correct.
Backgammon still has that possibility. In fact the doubling cube increases the skill ceiling by leveraging players' ability to project & evaluate winning odds. Having a set of 21 known dice outcomes as opposed to a deck of cards probably helps
A distinction between combinatorial/deterministic strategy games vs ones with randomness is still useful though. But a more subtle one is the difference between hidden information vs randomizer
Although he is being a tad strict, I agree with Zee on his definitions
Game categories must mean something. Deck-Building means one thing. Tile-Laying means one thing. And Abstract Strategy means having all the info you need right from the start. Flipping cards in Kahuna fails that very important requirement.
That doesn't mean there isn't Abstract Strategy in Kahuna. It's just not a pure Abstract Strategy game. Like most board games nowadays, it's a hybrid. Abstract Strategy/Hand Management? Azul is even worse as you have no idea what your options will be the following turn so you don't have all the info you need from the get-go. So the question here is: Is this a Top 10 Abstract Strategy Games list or a Top 10 Games WITH Abstract Strategy list?
I'm with Zee because that second choice opens the list up to way too many options.
Many people would be surprised to find that their miniature games are actually very abstract. 🤣 I agree with Zee's definition for the most part but there are some fun little games like Haru Ichiban that would fail the randomness test but are very abstract. Mijnlieff is a brilliant little game that is criminally overlooked but would meet Zee's stringent criteria and IMO smokes more than half of these selections.
Zee is using a precise definition. That's why he's right!
But so many games are hybrids this day.
If it was “top 10 deck builders” and someone said Clank, it would be valid even though it also has board movement and push your luck mechanics. So can a game be a deck builder or worker placement if it has other elements?
So I’m just saying that other games could possibly fit into this list even if they aren’t 100% pure abstract strategy.
We can be super strict by the definition of what that mechanism is but no other top 10 eliminates all games that don’t just 100% fit that one definition with no added elements. Otherwise the top 10 deck builder list would have to be only Dominon and the like
That’s all I meant my him being a tad strict. Not on the definition but how the definition affects the top 10 lists
Maybe there is some distinction to be made between Abstract strategy (as Tom and Sam mostly saw it) and what I call Mindgames (Zee). Mindgames are then a special subset of the bigger category Abstract strategy.
I like mindgames and played a bunch of them, so I would before watching this video I would instinctively think only of mindgames when seeing abstract strategy. But maybe that's just on me. ;-)
From 10 to 1...
Sam: Gemblo, Kahuna, Codinca, Mapmaker, Samurai Gardener, Realm of Sand, Sagrada, Dragon Castle, Azul: Stained Glass of Sintra, Onitama
Zee: Sugar Gliders, Katarenga, Dvonn, Onitama, Lyngk, Tintas, Santorini, Tzaar, Hive, Yinsh
Tom: Dvonn, Quinamid, Glüx, Azul: Stained Glass of Sintra, Kamisado, War Chest, The Duke, Onitama, Yinsh, Santorini
Thank you!
Asymmetric abstract strategy games are most certainly a thing. Hnefatafl is a superb example.
Hnefatafl is an asymmetric abstract strategy game from Vikings time.
Though of it too when Tom talk3d about "one side could be the king and the other tries to catch him".
I was going to say this :)
I own it and I thought of this straight away!
It's no right to be as addictive as it is. There is a great app in the app store.
I found it too easy and feels unbalanced
All 3 lists were actually valid on their own respect and great.
I've been waiting for the top 10 all my life. bless you guys
Happy to see Kahuna in the list. One of my early favorites that I played a lot with my wife and it is still in my collection.
Santorini is amazing! Always engaging, fresh, quick and interesting plays. Also, its family and almost all age friendly with the hero cards handicap
did not like it at all.
1)Hnefatl is an asymmetric game.2)Stratego is a hidden information game.3)Element and backgammon has chance as part of the game.
Id call backgammon a abstract racing game
Some of those are combinatorial games (a subset of Abstract Strategy) meaning they might have one or two elements that make them different from an abstract strategy game, but otherwise fit the definition :)
Something someone mentioned in chat: top 10 games if you're stuck on a desert island. I also love watching the negative lists, where games get destroyed. More of those please. Kickstarter related top 10s sound fun too
I have to say that I like Zee's description of abstract strategy games, although I'm okay with asymmetry as long as the asymmetry is perfectly known (and preferably balanced, although I don't think that's a requirement). Even games like Chess have a mild asymmetry in that one player goes first.
Once you add a level of randomness to the game in the course of the game, it limits the strategy of the game because all the options are not actually open to you. It still can be highly tactical, but long term planning is limited by the roll of the dice or the luck of the draw.
Photosynthesis is neat because while I don't think of it as an abstract game (it's clearly working hard to simulate with its rules making it fairly complex), it's definitely a pure strategy game that happens to play a lot like many abstract strategy ones in terms of its lack of randomness or hidden information.
This is basically the definition of combinatorial abstract strategy games...
- There are two players moving alternately
- No randomness
- Perfect information
- The game will end without there being a draw
@@VaultBoy13 Point 4 is definitely not necessary. The game can end via draws, Chess is certainly a combinatorial game and can end via a draw. Everything else is on point, abstract strategy in board gaming means combinatorial game. To be honest, I don't like using abstract strategy to mean combinatorial, it's bad conflation, but it's pretty common to use it like that.
I agree.
yeah there's a distinction between tactical and strategic play that I think is being missed but that Zee has his finger on perfectly
What about Raptor?
Onitama (3x)
Azul: Stained Glass of Sintra (2x)
Dvonn (2x)
Santorini (2x)
Yinsh (2x)
All the others are 1x.
It is all about Hive
I'm with Zee too. For me abstract strategy means perfect information. Luck yes, but only when it affects both players equally (eg random setup), with no individual luck (eg bag pulling etc)
That’s pretty narrow. Where does a game like War Chest land?
@@meathir4921 This of course is only my personal opinion and I don't mean it to sound as if I'd argue that this is 'the one true' definition^^ IMO, War Chest is not an abstract, but it has the look and tactile feel of an abstract. You could replace the bag pulling by a deck of cards with unit stats on it and the pieces by miniatures, and then it would look and feel more like a skirmish/miniatures game and noone would call it an abstract anymore. This is all a big grey area of course, and only a hill I would take a nap on :)
@@JoeyTrib1550 Idk if that’s true, given Undaunted Normandy exists and most certainly shows what happens if you lean more into the less abstract. I guess that’s fair though.
@@meathir4921 Agreed. Duke is another good example. I honestly think that a lack of luck hurts a lot of abstract strategy games, since it makes the game more "solve-able"
Loved your lists! Regarding War Chest, a game I adore, I have to agree with Zee.
Azul: Stained Glass? The players don't even play on the same board!
"...playing an abstract strategy game is an exercise in logical thought. There is an intimate relationship between such games and puzzles: every board position presents the player with the puzzle, What is the best move?, which in theory could be solved by logic alone. A good abstract game can therefore be thought of as a "family" of potentially interesting logic puzzles, and the play consists of each player posing such a puzzle to the other. Good players are the ones who find the most difficult puzzles to present to their opponents."
the way i read rule books, every game is abstracted to me
However, there is a line between "abstracted" and "abstract"☝️
I think Zee is mostly right on what is or isn't an abstract. The thing about The Duke and games like that is that they do feature an aspect heavily present in most abstract strategy games and that's the core gameplay loop of alternating turns of moving a piece on the board grid. I think because of that I would still qualify some of those games as an abstract, even if they don't carry all of the typical markers like zero luck, symmetry, 2 player, perfect information. Zee is right that just because a game is heavily abstracted doesn't mean it's an abstract strategy game, for sure.
I 100% agree with Zee's definitions of an Abstract Strategy game. As soon as he said those guidelines, I said "Hey! Those were my thoughts too! Get out of my head!!!!"
Sams eye-rolling at 57:55 🤣 it’s all good!!
This isn't the group I'd ask for Abstract Strategy games recommendations
What would be a better source for ideas?
Tom and Sam are conflating games that have some level of abstractness along with some amount of strategy with "abstract strategy" games. A game can be somewhat abstract and have strategic elements, but that doesn't mean it's an "abstract strategy" game. Zee does a good job talking about this at the beginning before they start the list.
But on the other hand Zee also conflated "combinatorial perfect information abstract strategy" with just "abstract strategy"(which also includes Backgammon)
Nick Bentley's Abstract Strategy Games: The Definitive Guide is a good read. recommended.
Good lists. Both my suggestions were commented on. :) Haha. Arimaa was suggested in jest, but Taluva is one of my favourite games and I’d always considered it abstract. But I can see how it doesn’t fit with this now that I’ve seen the whole video. That’s what I get for jumping in when you’re already at number one.
I would definetly add pyramid arcade and seikatsu!
Zee described Undaunted Normandy when talking about what WarChest would be if it was a deck builder and had theme. Both from same designer. Both are great. I would say UN is not abstract strategy but WC is.
I bought Yinsh, Lyngk and Dvonn recently. Lyngk and Dvonn were the Rio Grande editions while Yinsh is the Huch! one. Dear Lord Thor the Rio Grande editions suck ! Flimsy boxes and thinner boards, but i think the pieces are probably the same. The Huch! one has a sturdy box and the board is twise as thick. I will play the games all the same but it's frustrating to receive a lesser version for the same price ! :(
Tom, what about hnefatafl? Or the tafl family itself, it's asymmetrical abstract strategy games...
In reference to Zee's asymetrical rule, there are plenty of historical abstract games which are asymetrical. For instance the Tafl family of games are all asymetrical.
Hnefatafl is an example of an a-symetric abstract strategy game.
Per wikipedia, backgammon is an abstract strategy game. Perfect knowledge games they call combinatoric, but it's not required according to them. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_abstract_strategy_games
Zee's correct about an Abstract Strategy definition; they have no randomizers such as dice, no simultaneous movement, nor hidden information.
So The Duke is not an Abstract Strategy game??? Come on...
Agree, definition seems legit until you compare to The Duke - cannot possibly argue that The Duke is not abstract strategy...
@@Minkfeeder the Duke is not an abstract strategy game. There is randomness with the tile drawing. Its like how Blood Rage is really close to being a Euro but has combat which makes it a hybrid
@tomatodamashi Correct, The Duke is not an Abstract Strategy Game, it's an abstract game.
What about Backgammon?
Have any of you played hnefentafl? That's an asymmetrical abstract strategy
Do you think gunkimono is kind of abstract-y????
And no love for photosynthesis?
How about a sequel to Top 10 Essential Games Everyone Should Own! from 2016?? lol Its past the 10K views and Im still waiting for the second one ahahahah A new one pretty pleaassse - Diane from Canada!
Dyan'sVoyager - I second this notion
Tom did a top 10 abstract strategy games list in early 2018. Seven of the games on that list, including the top 5, are also on this list. The three games that are not on this list are Pentago, Epigo, and Khet.
While I think it's hard to nail down exact genre definitions due to edge cases I do disagree with some here.
Zee is a touch too strict, Tom is a touch too loose and Sam is completely off base in my opinion, but makes for a more entertaining top ten so whatever.
I don't see why Zee is too strict. I can't think of any examples that break his rules. I think you COULD have an assymetric game, maybe. But cannot think of one
@@avisian8063 Chess? K is to left of Q for one player and to right for the other.
@@joshcoady haha that is literally true... But not what I meant 😂
@@joshcoady But the game is still symmetrical. Any set of moves you could make from one side can just be flipped horizontally to make the identical play on the other side. No choices are changed from one side to the other because of this symmetry. An asymmetrical game gives players unique choices or rules that the other player doesn't use.
If in chess you could only move bishops up and to the left but not to the right then yes - players would have a different set of reachable configurations because their kings and queens were flipped. But even then I'd label that something closer to randomized starts since asymmetric games usually refers to the rules being asymmetric.
@@avisian8063 Hnefatafl is a very old, traditional abstract strategy game that's entirely asymmetrical.
According to Tom’s “twice as much” comment, he likes “10” games 512 times more than he likes “1” games!
That's too little. Should probably use the richter scale and go like 40x
Ëko is my favorite.
Knizia's Samurai is my second.
Samurai is a great game
Good choice on Glux, love that game and very mean! :)
I like "Einfach Genial" (or "Ingenious" in english) a lot. One of my favourite games.
Backgammon would easily be considered abstract strategy despite that there is essentially roll and move. I think it gets legally defined as a game of skill and judgement and anyone familiar with playing it KNOWS an experienced good player will 99.9% of the time beat a newbie DESPITE "bad" dice rolls
At least according to the wikipedia definitions, what Zee describes as abstract strategy games are actually more like combinatorial games I believe, which are only a sub-genre of abstract strategy games.
Would Element be considered an abstract tactical game?
Thud, the Discworld abstract strategy game. Trolls versus dwarves. Based on Hnafetafl (sp?).
Unfortunately, not very balanced. I found it a bit frustrating that "winning" should be measured by switching side, and then see who loses "less badly" with I think the dwarves....
I like how Sam says he tried to pick games that play more than two players, and Zee just looks at him with horror and disgust.
Is this the one with 'hungry hippos' - 'kerplunk' and 'Mouse trap' ?
The problem is that one of you is talking about *combinatorial* games, and the other is talking about abstract games in terms of theme. Do your top 10 combinatorial list ;-)
And to complete it, top 10 abstracts with randomness, as well as top 10 games where "randomness" comes from player decisions + hidden/simultaneous selection/info, but no randomizer(deck, dice etc)
I would like to see "Top 10 games I realize are excellent games, but I dont like". Or possibly "Top 10 counterintuitive games".
This top 10 is a perfect example of when a tool (genres to tell what kind of game a game is) becomes a hindrance/crutch. The arguments were still entertaining though :)
Would Franchise by queen games fall under the abstract Category? Has zero luck
I have to say, I mostly agree with Zee's definition of abstract strategy. I wouldn't say any game with any asymmetry whatsoever is *necessarily* not abstract strategy, but Zee is closer to where I'd draw the line than either Tom or Sam.
That being said, as a fan of abstract strategy games (they are my favorite type of game) who doesn't get to play them as much as I'd like, due to the people I typically game with not enjoying them, I appreciate Sam's list.
While I like Zee's distinction of perfect information combinatorial abstract strategy games vs ones with randomness or hidden info, the latter could still be strategic, as evidenced by Backgammon and Iterated Prisoner's Dilemma. I personally prefer it when the "randomness" comes from player decision + hidden info/simultaneous selection, since there's actual thought behind it, which can be predicted but can also be bluffed/psych-played, which is another form of strategy. It also tunes to people's preference to pink randomness, since it came from people
And if there's any "synthetic" randomness, it better be super mitigatable or setup-only
I think it's better to be specific with the term "combinatorial perfect information abstracts" instead of conflating it with abstract strategy in general
I was surprised not to see Ekö on Zee's list.
Is Mahjong an abstract strategy game? I love it anyway. :)
I too love mahjong, but I don't think it is an abstract strategy game becuase there is a lot of randomness. While better players win more frequently, luck is a big factor. See also, Poker.
@@hanng1242 Mahjong certainly has a lot of randomness.
Quarto excellent two player quick to learn. Hard to master. If you lose it’s because you have your opponent the winning piece.
Zee is right about War Chest, though I'm not sure what his point was. If you replace the pieces with corresponding rocks, pencils, erasers, hairbrushes, chargers, and paperclips; and you used cards instead, then it would still be the same game.
Hhnefatafl/Tablut Is a good example of a traditional asymmetric abstract strategy game.
Fox and Geese is THE most obvious
I want to play a game that's a lifetime to learn and a minute to master.
That's life. :D We are learning all the time, and all know how to live (in our own way).
most Euros
Tzolk'in. Takes a while to learn the rules, then once you've found the single most broken strategy you just do that one.
I agree with Zee about War Chest, it's just a miniatures game without miniatures or cards.
Tintas must be a good game. I've seen it surface on lists a couple times now, but I can't find it anywhere.
Looked a lot of games on these lists only to find the term "Not Currently Available" to be a common theme ...
Sam: "When you take assymetry out of a game, sometimes, you suck a lot of the fun out off it." I complete agree with this statement, but I also believe that Sometimes, when you ADD assymetry to a game, you can suck a lot of the fun out off it.
Both those statements can be true depending on the game, but using either as a blanket statement, both in my opinion would be false.
I always put the last ring on!!!
Honestly was surprised Onitama was on all 3. I feel it has a theme that works well with the feel of the cards and actions. I can see how many would call it abstract, but that all 3 were calling it as such with all the debate on what it means. A great game, just surprised me.
I was thinking about it. Cards dont FEEL like it should be in the abstract strategy definition, but Onitama is definitely one. But what about Lost Cities card game? Thats the most abstract thing in the world. Or Hanamikoji? I think it ends up being about the feel more than a strict definition. It just feels like no-mini pieces on a board feel more like it because thats what most of them are.
Shobu should make it the next time they do an abstract list ...
William Buchanan I absolutely adore Shobu!!
@@jordanbraly2909 Agreed, it's pretty awesome.
I love the Summo stuff.
It’s been a long time since last top 10 tips for designing a boardgame
I miss Through the Desert, The Bridges of Shangri-La, Clans
Sam: I have 5 abstract games, and I have 5 strategy games...
"I would eat that." - Tom 2019
Hnefatafl; The Viking boardgames, is an example of an asymmetrical abstract strategy game.
I know Zee would disagree...because of luck of the draw...
We love Element by Rather Dashing Games. And we love how it almost becomes a different game when you play with three or four vs. two.
Tayu (original blue version), Octiles, Game of Y, Terrace, Quarto, Pylos, Outwit...
tldr sam has no idea what game genres mean
Zee’s list makes more sense. Something can be abstracted and not be abstract strategy. Tonme an abstract strategy game is a no luck game in which the mechanics don’t serve the “theme”.
So a combinatorial abstract strategy game?
Would hidden information/simultaneous selection which comes purely from players and not randomizers count as luck to you?
Why don't you guys just define the category before you pick the games... it would only take like 10 mins to set out the rules...
I actually like the difference in definition. It brings out a more interesting conversation. But, yeah, I agree that it makes the list a tad less useful.
Tom already said that lack of definition of the category is done on purpose. It generates more discussion and I agree with this.
Having strict, clear definition of each category before doing their lists would made much dryer videos.
I was expecting Quantum on Sam's list
Gotta side with zee on the definition of abstract strategies guys. I think he nailed it.
Nah, its too rigid
"This is of the most egregious picks so far..."
"oOoOh LeT's UsE tHe HoiTy-ToiTy WoRdS"
"It's STUPID"
Bahahaha 🤣
that introduction really caught me off guard lmao
There's definitely luck in some abstract strategy games, such as Backgammon, but otherwise I definitely agree with Zee's definition. Open information is about the most important aspect for this category for me.
I agree with Zee on what an abstract strategy is. Enjoyed all 3 lists
My top 10 would be (in no particular order):
1. Go
2. Onitama
3. Element: Silver (with a caveat)
4. Tzaar
5. Dvonn
6. Tak
7. Hive
8. Kamisado
9. Shobu
10. Mapmaker
Now for the caveat: When I bring Element to the table, I put the elements in separate piles that people can freely take from for their actions. I dislike how arbitrary the game is when you draw your actions from a bag as the rules say you should.
Using the term Abstract to describe a game type is pretty abstract in itself just by definition. Maybe another term should be used to describe a strategy genre where all things are equal and visible, where each person has the same choices and the randomness only comes from those choices. Brain to brain so to speak. Thought Strategy.
Love your videos by the way. You guys have a great rapport.
Sam: "Azul 2 doesn't feel like an abstract game."
Maybe because it's NOT AN ABSTRACT GAME! ;)
Wonder if chess actually have a theme?
Kill the King or just murder his hole army while defending your own King is a fairly clear and simple war theme, it may not be counted as a abstract if it was released today.
Hmm.. no SHOBU?
And... where are the classics? Chess?
I mean... I like Santorini, but something tells me this list is a bad guideline for anything else but the taste of these 3 guys.
Peter Mogensen shobu is amazing!
What about quirkle?
wow Tak is great
Sadderday, in quarantine, I think it was the 4th of July.
Just because there is luck, that doesn't mean that there is no strategy.
lots of great ones have been mentioned, but Six Making needs way more love
A board game can either be perfect information OR be symetrical. For a game to be symetrical it absolutely REQUIRES simultaneous movement, otherwise it is as asymetrical as chess is. If you know anything about chess, it is a totally different game with white and black, by a lot, depending On an opening you get. Much much more than most games like idkz Carcassonne or something xd
The Climbers, a game that seems not to get a lot of love. Lattice, Torres, Volusia.