+Matt Bayes all 3 rolling specifically a "10" is 1/8000. But all 3 rolling the same (regardless of the value) is only 1/400. First number doesn't matter, only if the next 2 match it.
Not all numbers would have been as noteworthy as 10, since it's a top ten list. If they had all rolled 12's, for example. 1, 6, 7, 11 and 20 would also have been noteworthy, so I give it a 6/8000 (3/4000). :P
Maybe one of those casual "trash" which are still fun anyway, or games which break the usual wisdom about agency, balance, elimination etc yet somehow aren't less fun that their "properly designed" contemporaries
I have to say that this so far your best made, edited, and structured video so far. Fluent conversation and overall great subject for top10 list - job well done!
The 3 of you included Netrunner on this list and even for the same reason. There is the obvious solution that you play the game against eachother ... I was a bit surprised to hear that you all said that you find nobody to play it with. If it's a good game (never played it myself), it shouldn't be a problem convincing eachother.
I love turning on these guys in the background, ya I'll pay attention the first time I watch. But just half listening with the silliness in the background. It's a ton of fun.
Great top 10 Keep up the good work! Just to clarify everyone, Caravelas is about the Portuguese Discoveries, ships are from Portugal, not from Spain. It is okay to mix both up but i would like to pass the message :-P
Ricochet Robots is probably my most favorite board game, ever. It's cool, it's quick, it requires you to think and noone ever is responsible for your defeat except your skill. Very little room for sheer luck. More than that, it scales for any group easily (cannot be easier, I believe) and you can practice it alone if your want, and it definitely wakes up your attention and focus. I'm not supergood at it, but I'm fine, and in a good company and good state of mind I'd play every time I'm offered to.
Ah the curse of becoming a Tourney game. People who don't know it very well, and people who optimize the heck out of it. Not a pleasant domain for people who know it, and DON'T want to deep dive the mechanics. I guess you could go in drafting, but the super players still have the advantage.
Regarding Zee talking about "But Wait There's More", what if you play a house rule variant where everybody gets a different random product card instead of everybody using the same product? That seems like it would solve the issue he had with the game.
Doug Rosengard that breaks the theme of the game. It's a rip on 'those' infomercials. The players aren't selling different vacuums, they are telling you different features of the same one.
Zee, the "BSG in an hour" you want is Dark Moon. It literally started as a shorter BSG, a fan made variant called "BSG Express". It cuts out movement and ship combat for a 60-90 minute game. It also replaces the cards for skill check with hidden die rolls. The traitors will try to submit bad rolls, claiming it was the best they rolled. Players have to eventually determine who is lying. It works SO much better than the cards. Shortened BSG meets Liar's Dice.
Tabletop Simulator for the PC is the best thing to happen to introduce new players to X-Wing, imo. I'm just starting out with it and I agree that it's way too daunting on the surface, but having TTS available to play with my friends, netdeck lists, and see what's fun to play, allows me to play the game without limits, and figure out what minis I want to drop my cash on.
I'm not sure I will ever play Pandemic again. I love the game, but after playing Legacy, I just don't see the regular game being as exciting or engaging for me. we just finished legacy, so maybe I'm just burnt out on it right now, but regular pandemic will not be seeing the table for me in a while.
Sam, here it comes. The inevitable argument surely foreseen to be made for WAR OF THE RING: According to the books, the nature of things was that the Shadow had long planned the war below the surface and pushed it to the surface at a time that seemed entirely in its favor. The other nations' reactions to the development and to the actual run of that war were quite different. In my humble opinion, the game mirrors the described outset inequalities, varying approaches, diplomatic issues, strategic problems, as well as the impossibilities of carrying it out against a massive, even overpowering opponent very nicely and very thematically. And the game does more: It let's you explore a ton of possible options to re-write the war in most of its parts besides also finding the time for individual stories and tragedies (a genius stretch). I would argue that the game let's you re-write a loved (war) plot more elegantly and thoroughly than many other games claim to do (e.g. Star Wars: Rebllion, after some plays most possible plot twists seem to have been revealed). Just because a war does not follow the all to usual line of "boom, here we all are, let's all fire away and see who stands last" does not mean that a) it is not a war and b) it is not a very intriguing war (to be carried out on cardboard that is). Yes, they could have found another title like "THE UNFOLDING, THE EXECUTION AND THE END OF THE WAR OF THE RING" but how pedantic would that have been? And how pedantic is it for us to make a request in that regard. That a player has not moved his nation(s) "at war" at the right time may be very well founded on his own making. The game is complex and long and does not hit my table as much as I would like but once it unfolds (even with its current and upcoming expansions) it does shine. I would have loved to play it against you.
I agree. Even in todays world conflict does not have to lead to all out war. Look at Ukraine - Russia practically took part of it but no war aggains Russia is waged by its allies. Perhaps folks in Middle Earth were not attacked by the Shadow but decided (by referendum or similar means) that thay would want to ally with Sauron. Look at Saruman - this is exactly what he did ;) It is all peacetalks and misunderstandings, no need to automatically go to war, Sam.
I think Sam got the wrong idea, as many ppl did when first played it. The good side never wants to make an all scale war with Shadow, because it's a suicidal mission. When human, elf or dwarf dies, they die. When Orcs, Goblins, Uruk hai die, they go back to the reserve. The fellowship needs to bring the ring to Mordor, while others tried to hold the ground until the ring is destroyed, NOT marching to Mordor. Besides the Fellowship only needs 4 military points to win. Use some action to threat some weakly defended Shadow forts. The game for me is elegantly designed, everything seems to cope well with the movie (i didnt read the book, stopped after Bilbo saga). Have the fellowship moving around, send Aragorn, Legolas... to armies to help, sneak attack, march armies to force Shadow engage to make some nation at war.... A lot of things to try that can make me play it any day.
Well Said Christoph Rehse. War of the Ring is, by far, my favorite game. I'm just learning to use the two expansions for it, and find that they add so much to an already amazing game!
Totally agree with the xwing/net runner thoughts. Star Trek Attack Wing fits in that same bill also. I also struggle with the fact you have to spend at least an hour planning your game build, probably even longer than that now, before you even sit at the table to play. In the early stages it was a 1/2 hour, which for what looks like a coffee table game is still too long. But it's a well designed game and fun to play if you have time and people your skill level to match with.
Sad thing is. I feel every cardgame has the Android: Netrunner problem. At a certain moment you just need to go with the hardcore crowd and go along with the meta or not be able to play with the vast majority of people. And if you do you won't have a very good time cause you have very little chance of winning.
I feel like Summoner Wars avoids this. Yes, you can buy Reinforcement Packs, but for the most part you don't deck build, you just hand a person a deck, take another one, and go for it. Star Realms, likewise. Basically the games that don't have you preconstructing your deck.
Honestly it really depends on your community. As someone who's been playing magic since highschool, I've experienced both good communities that welcome anyone to play and others that made me quit for a couple years. The good thing with magic is that if you play with set decks, or give a new player a deck you designed to be pretty competitive, I find they can usually catch on to how the game plays and you don't have to really dumb down your decision making. A collectible game I would recommend that I'm in love with is a card/dice hybrid called dicemasters. While it still has meta cards that dominate, the fun thing is most characters are playable, and there are things like globals and basic actions that are shared between both players. Some of the most powerful things in the game both players will have access to if someone brings it in their team.
Yeah, I agree. That's exactly why I stopped playing Magic the first time. (I kind of got into it again when some friends started playing Commander, since that's different enough from "normal" Magic for the game to not be "solved" right away, but I lost interest again when a lot of friends started making very competitive decks...) So far though, Force of Will has been pretty fun in my area. I think part of the key is having a game where there's a lot of choices to make during the game, as opposed to coming up with a strategy when you build the deck and only slightly varying it to counter specific decks you go up against.
+Dexter Mahler netrunner is starting a rotation in early 2017. they are getting rid of the first two blocks (12 packs) which did have a couple of overpowered cards.
I know you don't mean EVERY card game, because there are a ton of fun games either using cards in addition to other mechanics (as a main part of the game) or are just card games, that are still great for beginners and people who've been playing for awhile. Sushi Go is fantastic once you explain how the cards and scoring work, Gloom is a game where even if you lose, the storytelling of a group will make up most of the enjoyment anyway, Sheriff of Nottingham is fantastic and I feel the base game of the Warhammer LCG is fine as well. Games that aren't solely card games, but has cards as a huge aspect of the game, that still allow for both crowds to enjoy, would be Abyss, Lords of Waterdeep. With Magic, if you're playing with a newcomer there are fun ways to keep it fun, tweaking decks to mostly be of uncommons/rares, buying Commander decks and even (as a one time only deal) buy you and your friend(s) intro decks to start things off OR buy booster packs together. There are ways to makes thing fun, you just really need to avoid the people that ONLY want to win, they tend to be unfun at every experience of play. And yes, you probably meant every card game that's a CCG, TCG or LCG, but I think things can apply to other games that use cards and end up with expansions/mini expansions. But I think at the end of the day, it REALLY comes down to people who want to play games to have fun and try to win but don't ruin it for others and then the competitive crowd that are there solely to win at any and all costs.
I've made this mistake with every FFG LCG that I've tried. You get a core set, dip your feet in, this is great, oooh, some packs, OH DEAR LORD THEY WON'T STOP COMING. They milk them to death and you either keep up with the flood or rapidly fall behind and have no one to play with. Then you're managing all the decks for anyone you do still play with, and it gets boring because you've built all the decks and anyone who plays you really doesn't give that much of a crap about how a deck does because they didn't build it.
While I can’t fault a company for wanting to keep hitting the cash register, it is awful when a game just keeps changing like that. I’m a much bigger fan of new maps/consistent rules (Power Grid, TTR, Formula D, &c) than new components which shift the entire balance of a game.
Oh wait, so both Tom, Sam and Zee all had Netrunner on a list for the same reason that they don't have anyone to play the game casually. Dude, maybe play it together?!?
As someone who played with a friend casually for a long time: you get used to someone else's style real fast. Both of us weren't strangers to branching out (except I will never play HB because it's full of scum), but we still came to understand what each other was looking for and either playing into it at our own detriment or building to counter it at theirs.
Agreed. That is the only way I would consider playing net runner. It doesn't have to be core vs core, but it does have to be one fixed data pack/core deck vs another. No mixing from all the sets. Just too much to know to be effective and building a deck.
I think one of the big things with Netrunner is that the design of the game is very different, and took quite a long time to figure the game out. It's not so much an expansion thing (decks for a long time ran mostly core set cards, and you can do fine for the most part), it's just more of a player-base learning curve. Magic (and it's derivatives) have a much more straight-forward value analysis. This card costs X and has Y strength and is fundamentally very tit-for-tat. It's not as simple as that (or at least it's not that) in Netrunner.
I agree that magics card value determination is a lot more straight forward, but in both cases knowledge of and access to all existing cards and time played both continue to drive the odds of winning higher. It has a very long curve of expertise. Too long for my taste. Too much of an investment to move up that curve.
Yeah, I agree. Having loved the original I avoided Netrunner for ages, but eventually I took the plunge and got a core set plus about 3 data packs and took about 8 cards out of each so that the base decks can be tweaked and have a few nasties put in them ever so slightly (5 mins at the start of playing). This does us fine - the great reboot with the different factions included in the base box gives enough to play the game with some variety. I will _never_ play competitively, nor play someone else's deck, and I have no interest in doing so, so what I've got is a perfect amount for what I want from the game. If you are tempted by the game (and it's great) and are happy to all play out of the same box, then I'd recommend it.
Love the reference to F-Zero and Wipeout. I've met some tabletop players that seem to hold themselves above video games for some reason, it's nice to know that isn't the case here. Respect, Zee! :P
What Tom says about X-Wing Miniatures is kind of how I feel about Magic: The Gathering. I think it's a great game, but everyone I know that still plays is too serious about building their decks/collections. I want to be able to play casually without a tournament-honed, up-to-date deck against someone else who is similarly casual about their deck-building.
Wow guys! I think this was the best top 10 you have ever produced. You all make valid points backed up with solid opinions. I was engrossed the entire time. Partly because of the conglomerate knowledge base but mostly because of the way you 3 get along, have fun and laugh. :) (and no Jason) Thanks for all that you do! BTW: just got my promo packs and having almost too much fun ;) And Hey .. I want that Lime-Green Dice Tower shirt! Take mah monay nao, Plox!
The two games that I can think of right now: - 1830: Felt like going to work. I can appreciate it's really well put together, but I just didn't have fun playing it. - Splendor: It's a well-designed game, easy, short and addictive. And this is why I grew tired of it after playing more than 50 times already. I also don't like the feeling when after buying a card, the one that comes next was better for you in all regards. I know it's how the game plays, it is just me: I don't enjoy it anymore.
No this is actually an amazing list, instead of doing something they've already done a bunch of times w lots of crossover they chose something unique. and the bants are top notch now, they've definitely grown into their role as entertainers (re: Sam and zee's improvised onomatopoeia duet).
TI4. I went to a teach-and-play and it was still an overwhelming experience. I'd rather play a few games in the time it takes to play one match of TI4.
How do you get a full game of 7 Ages in in 7 hours? It usually takes us about 10 hours to play through 3 of the ages and we're playing it quick and there is very little downtime in our games.
Was expecting Chaos in the Old World. Didn't you guys say the mechanics were solid, despite the theme being too much for you? Don't remember much about it.
I agree with X-Wing to an extent, and the trouble is that the designers have gone nuts with the abilities and special cards and such, to the point where the build is often more important than how you fly. I've played in a number of tournaments, even won a few, but the metagame in X-Wing right now is cancerous. The game needs to go back to the focus being on maneuver and dogfighting, not ability combos and turrets to avoid having to bother with any maneuver at all. Netrunner is fantastic. I think the only thing it suffers from is required card knowledge to play. Even being out of the game for a few months can mean you're screwed.
I not only think Brass is a masterpiece, it’s also unique and far ahead of its time. When board games were just starting to produce these elegant and refined systems of balance, the fact Brass was made at the time long before this is incredible. It’s a good decade ahead of its time.
18:26 As Edward Uhler of Heavy Cardboard says, "Plan better". It really is not that difficult to avoid going bankrupt in Age Of Steam, as long as you are thinking out what you want to do and how much it will cost. If you are able to survive the first few turns, after that you should be fine. The only reasons why you might have to go watch TV instead of staying in the game is because you mis-anticipate some thing (s) that could happen in the game which are beyond your own control - but you are at the mercy of your opponents - for example, if someone blocks you on the map (since it is a very interactive game).
Gloomhaven... the "Here's hundreds of hours of play in one box!" thing was awesome at the time, but now other developers keep making games like that, and there's only so much time in the day! My social group got about halfway through the modules, but there's so many other things out there on our "to play" list, it just no longer feels like it makes sense to spend yet more time on Gloomhaven... While not as fresh as it used to be, it's not really that it go stale, just we all agree we'd prefer to spend time on something newer. While I can sort of imagine being like "Hey, know what was fun? Gloomhaven. I miss that" some day, I can't imagine ACTUALLY busting it out and playing a module knowing we aren't actually getting back into it, and I definitely don't see us saying "Let's go back to routinely playing Gloomhaven. Great game, but probably dead to me.
X-Wing is another that just took off and passed me by at light speed. I couldn't possibly keep up with the pace of collecting other players were able to maintain.
Twilight Struggle. I enjoyed it. I can appreciate the design. But after a bunch of games, the luck factor just plays too large of a part to invest the 3 hours (and stress!) anymore. The first turn card draw, the first coup, war events, Quagmire/Bear Trap, all those are huge swings that come down to a single die roll and it's just not fun when bad luck with one of those single rolls sends you into a death spiral that costs you the game.
I have to counter-argue Tom's choice of Sid Meier's Civ being preferred on the computer. I personally prefer playing it multiplayer as a board game because there aren't connection issues (which have become so much more numerous to the point that games can't be completed in Civ 6), and I'm able to complete a full game of Civilization in a single day.
Hey Dice Tower. Idea: Top 10 Character Sheets, or Character Boards for a Board Game. I think its a pretty important aspect, u love bigger, smaller, more complex, a lot of attributes, simple, lot of changeable things... thats an idea. Whats ur favourite character sheet? U love to write with pencil, u use tokens on it, u love to place cards on it, it has an inventory, what kind of inventory.... etc.
Actually, I'd like to see this as well. A critique of the physical aspects of the game, rather than just the mechanics. That's an interesting topic. I know that there's a distinction between the feel of using tiny colored blocks vs. using meeples, and there's a difference for me between using the official Pathfinder sheets and using sheets I designed for myself to put the information in a visual order that makes better sense to my brain (e.g. combat section vs. noncombat, and the items in the order they'd be referred to within the encounter, and the skills by category instead of alphabetical).
I recently played Arkham Horror with a new set of rules.. and it was frantic. never thought I would play a 3hour game of Arkham followed by a 2 hour game of it. (basically, a portal per investigator following just the portal and clue lines and following the full card of the first player, Portals take two hits on the same location to open, in this rules there are rifts and different ways of dealing with a rift and a portal - it takes 1-2 turns to close a rift, 2-3 to close a portal... it means a LOT happening all the time.)
The reason X-Wing is on this list is one of the two main reasons I didn't play it in the first place. Keeping up with expansions and watching the old stuff be rendered nearly obsolete by them is just far too expensive. The other is the fact that an overlarge number of players out there are just pulling lists/builds down from the internet and playing them to a set of instructions written by whoever came up with the build in the first place. That's why I quit playing CCGs, most wargames, and PVP in MMOs.
Magic: The Gathering I used to play this game A LOT. even landed top 8 at a Pro-Your Qualifier once. But that game is long gone for me. They just pump expansion after expansion out and it's hard to keep up. And even to just play casually, I'd have to invest in the starter decks and I'd rather put that money towards games that a wider variety of people can enjoy. Thanks for another great list guys!
I love netrunner, and teaching it, but I am use to teaching games so I know how to present myself and the game. however I can understand how it is hard to get to the table, and how someone would be turned off by it.
My issue with all CCGs but particularly Netrunner is I have this threshold of complexity with deck building, where the more complicated building a good deck is, the more I like it, up to a certain point where if becomes SO much work, it starts feeling like a chore... This moment is really easy to catch, it's when a new set drops and instead of being excited to build new casual decks, I go "Sh*t, now I have to update all my competitive decks". Netrunner is so complex it was deeply satisfying to me when it came out, but I've never had my interest in a card game run it's course so fast... I was basically done by the second large expansion.
Completely agree on Netrunner. I enjoy playing games casually, but some games simply have no casual players. It's not the game's fault, and it doesn't make the game "bad".
Axis & Allies Global. A friend of mine in Dayton OH bought a kitchen table specifically to fit that game on (super long map board), but after playing it a ton of times, the length of the game is just too monstrously long.
Caravelas: The game theme is the Portuguese Discoveries in the 15th and 16th century, and their contribution to Portuguese wealth, symbolized in the Jerónimos Monastery. It is an historic fact that the spices trade, brought by the Caravelles, had to pay a tax of 5% in Lisbon, and this tax was used to pay for the monastery construction.
Doomtown Reloaded, while not as complex as Netrunner had the same problem. Everyone was obsessed over getting every release, and I just wanted to make a few perfect decks to play with friends. Anytime I asked for help in building a deck, the answer was bascially buy everything and use a few cards from each pack.
I agree with you guys on how it's difficult to play against people who dedicate a large amount of time to a game. I stopped playing Magic the Gathering because people were creating these decks that were basically destroying me in a few turns and also they got frustrated when it didn't work right. Now, I have no problem if they want to grab to brand new Core Decks out of the box and play, but they won't play that way because it's not "their deck". It's not that I don't like the games, I just can't dedicate the same amount of time that they can.
The other kicker about the people that are more dedicated is that I've played against some that try to get things past you hoping you, either A) don't know about the rule, or B) don't catch it. During an X-Wing event, I had someone watching my match and during my opponents turn he stepped in with "hey, that's not how that weapon is played". Thankfully we just had a nice conversation about the ruling on the card with the event sponsor and went about our match peacefully.
The main draw with MTG is crafting that perfect deck to win so I see why they do it. But for the life of me, I don't understand the lack of empathy that many players have toward new players. It's not hard to crush a newbie. I always tried to help new players get better and put myself at a disadvantage so I could challenge myself at the same time. It's like arm wrestling 5 year olds : is there any way for you to lose? So why bother?!?! It's not a real victory.
I've been playing Android: Netrunner for about 8 months now. I started out playing with a friend who was also new to the game, and we would just keep playing, and expanding, to the point that we are now playing at a fairly competitive level with the local "scene". Prior to playing netrunner I used to play a variety of board games, card games, and dice games, mostly 2-player ones. Now I rarely play those games, even though I still like them, because I'd usually rather play netrunner. It's a great game, but I think it's really important to play the game with people of similar skill level, so that your skills develop naturally as you play, rather than you being taught/told what to do. From what I can tell, the woman you mention should have just let you play freely and enjoy the game.
34:05 Well Tom, What do you think of Brass: Birmingham? Does it change enough for you by making things more open and easy-going (i.e., with the addition of beer)?
I'd be interested to hear why you feel the way you do about Netrunner (which I agree with), but not Dice Masters. As a collectible/constructible game with a tournament scene, doesn't Dice Masters check off all the same boxes that you dislike about Netrunner (minus having two names for everything)?
I think a bit key to keeping CCG-type games from getting stale is to have a lot of variety and a lot of decision making during the actual game. I'm not familiar enough with Netrunner to say for sure about it, but I know most of the time with Magic, I'm not making very many real decisions during a game that I haven't already planned out in advance when building the deck. On the other hand, with Dicemasters having the deckbuilding-ish element (and the element of some cards being open for both players to pick from), there's a lot more decisions that come into play when playing the game that you don't necessarily script out beforehand.
Netrunner is mostly skill over luck. In a skill game, the better player will always win. It would be hard to find someone of equal lower skill level to play Netrunner with.
I've finally sworn off (and sold) most of the "classic" (Avalon Hill, SPI, VG) war games I played innumerable times during the 1960-80's. The nostalgic glow I used to feel when taking these off the shelf was finally outweighed by the combined negatives of simplistic rules, limited play options and crude component design.
I wish I could get Netrunner to the table. I don't know anything about the hardcore scene, nor do I care. But complex 2 player only games are hard as hell to find players for :( Tom is crazy in regards to x-wing though.
Netrunner is not nearly as bad to get into as people think. Go to your local meta meetings (you can usually find them on facebook, google or satellite-grid.blogspot.com) and bring both a corp deck and a runner deck. Then just ask someone to teach you the basics and play with you using your own constructed decks. That should be much more fun and easy to get into than the degeneracy that's going on in the competitive meta right now.
I don't think so. I am VERY interested in X-Wing, but will never play it for the same reason. My local gaming shop is always running tournaments, and have teams going to tournaments, so it would be like playing 1 on 1 basketball with Jordan. I would never be able to compete.
Subangelis Gaming FFG uses the swiss tournament system for all their officially endorsed events and just due to how this system works after just one or two rounds you will be paired up with people of similar skill. Of course during your first tournaments you WILL finish lower, but eventually this goes away.
I'm with the guys on Android/ccg/lcg style games. As someone who only casually plays a couple of those sorts of games I will not play them away from home. The main reason is that person they described. There is always someone looking over your shoulder snorting every time you play a card or looking down their nose at you because "Oh, you only have the (insert game specific vocab here) cycle/edition in you hand, fleet etc. It's not just those games that suffer from the issue. Chaz Marler touched on it in his Meeples for Sheepish peoples series with his Jamaica experience. There is always that one girl/guy that behaves like this, giving snorts of derision or the "Oh that's cute" style comment when you mention/play/ask about something. That can include staff at games shops!! It is something that can put people off the hobby and happens a lot. I'm pleased these guys often bring it up, last time I think it was in the ideal games shop top 10 list.
Have you ever played chess against a Grandmaster who plays chess for a living? I have. I never stood a chance of course, but the GM had the decency to let me play my game; only after the game (of which he had remembered every single move) he taught me a bit about what he had seen and how I could have played better. It was a fantastic experience that made my love of chess greater, not smaller. I am sorry to hear that one person spoiled Netrunner for you guys, but I fail to see why that should be the case. I have taught the game to a few friends, and we play it occasionally. We only use the core deck and don't care about the expansions: the core deck already makes for a very rich and deep game. I am sure people who are really into Netrunner would say we are missing out, but I would also hope they would have the decency to let us play, and may be only afterwards show us something of how rich and deep it is at their level. And if they really love the game, they might even enjoy the experience of going back to playing with the core deck just for once as well. To put it differently: I am sure Kobe Bryant would find my lack of basketball skills painful to watch and he would be right about that. But why should that stop me and my friends from playing and enjoying ourselves?
Aha! Called Sam's number 1. Interesting thing is I was just thinking about getting it. I'm also a fan of Memoir 44 but I'm fond of the ancient/classical period and I don't care about blocks or minis. I'll take another look at the PDF rules and decide in the near future. I suspect I'll get Ancients even though I usually agree with Sam.
Did you get it? It's the best 2-player game that I have played. I have been through all the expansions and scenarios. If you like Memoir 44 and just want something a little extra. C&C Ancients is the right game for you.
Tom mentioned,in mondays Q&A IIRC, he will be talking to one of the players this week so might be able to confirm a time by the weekend. He thinks probably sometime in September.
Straddllw Sam of course, I don't know about Jason but I doubt it. I believe its going to be a 4 player game, Tom,Sam,Zee and the 4th player Tom inferred would be a member of their gaming group that usually isn't on the show. But I really have no idea, I wouldn't think Tom would say 'I need to talk to the other player' rather than 'I need to talk to Jason'. Now if its a 5 player game probably Jason as well.
Whoops had to edit. it was easier to come up with games I didn't like to begin with. In order from least controversial to most possibly: Honorable mention: Monopoly - A childhood game that has roll and move for resources and a length problem. Too bad I wasn't a kid in this era. 10. Risk - Of course there are tons of other games that do it better but this was once the go to strategy war game for me. 9. Dragon Strike - Great fun and hilarious VHS tape with 90's special effects. Dungeon crawlers sure have come a long way. 8. Munchkin - Need I even say why? Most of us have moved on and those who haven't...really like to troll 9 Exp friends for hours. 7. Tsuro - I thought it was neat initially and that wore off pretty quick. Again, the game plays out too samey and takes too long to get to the end. 6. Sushi Go! - Good drafting game with fun art but there are way too many deeper drafting games for me to be distracted by this one ever again. Another one that was great initially but wore off fast. 5. Forbidden Desert/island - A good series of games but again there are other games that eclipse them in the cooperative action management genre. 4. Magic the Gathering - Really good card game but for the price of the game I could get into so many other card and board games that I can't be bothered. I hate to see artificial rarity in our hobby's products. 3. Kingsburg - Really liked this game when I was newer to the hobby but I think even with the expansion, the gameplay plays too similarly and not very interestingly compared to all the other games out there, even the ligher stuff. 2. Catan - Still a really popular game but I really am not into trading/negotiation and there are more fun euros out there. The gateway has been left behind. 1. King of Tokyo - It was part of several games that were fun when I first got into this hobby but now the game play is not exciting and throwing the large dice and fun theme can't bring it back for me.
Great video guys! I am curious to know if any of you would play Vlaada's Mage Knight Board game again (this would be my personal #1). It is an amazing game that packs in tons of great mechanics; dice drafting, deck building, world exploration, etc. I personally feel that it packs too much into a single game, and the resulting rules complexity is too steep a step for me to re-learn just for a one-off 3 hour gaming experience. I'll just play dice masters to cover the drafting and deck building , and rinse it down with Return of the Heroes for world exploration. Shout out to Tom and Sam; I hope that I one day play Overpower again!
That and the components are (no offense) complete ass compared to what's on the market, aka Gloomhaven, Mechs vs Minions, Twilight Imperium, etc. Also has alot of poorly explained/implemented/needlessly confusing mechanics that would have made the game better without. (Such as resistances and how they work, passive armor, what allies can do, how summoning units attack, how some of the scenarios work).
Does Android Netrunner have a handicap system? I still haven't played my copy (way too late to the party, I know), and am hoping there's some kind of equalizer between players of different skill levels. Like in Go :)
And as for the "why" I might not play a game I really enjoyed again (or at least much much less)... - Replaced by something better (e.g. for me that was chess --> Go; played former for a decade, latter for now 15-20 years with only a few games of chess interspersed) - Just played it so many times that I feel it's going to be the same / nothing more to explore (at least with the same players). TtR and Wizard are starting to feel like that to me (usually play with spouse and family, and we know each other's style too well).
Sam got something wrong. In Caravelas it is Portugal that is the focus of the game, not Spain. We are quite proud of our history and Gil D'Orey makes most of his games in a way that Portugal is always part of it.
Zee talking about But Wait, There's More, I agree, first time I played I thought it was supposed to be different items. Then played by rules and it's better with different items. You can easily play that way
I am with Tom, in that Diplomacy is the only game I will flat out refuse to ever play again. I played a single game of it with some friends of mine via an online web version that lasted for MONTHS. About two months into the game, I got stabbed by my closest ally, and I was shocked at how deeply it hurt me. Even though all the players were people I knew, we had been assigned countries at random, and were anonymous to each other - so I didn't know who had stabbed me until the game ended a month or so later. I realized it was not healthy to be that emotionally invested in a game, so I have declined to ever play again. (And eventually, I forgave my backstabbing friend, though I spent the rest of the game offering to help any other player who would attack him, since he could never completely wipe me out.)
Chang Cheng looks cool but we weren't a huge fan of some of the wonky area control aspects... it was a middle of the road game for me and my room is too small for those!
Zee, you make me sad that you don't want to play Basari anymore. I heard about the game through word of mouth and ended up getting a used copy, and it's an absolute blast to play. Everyone loves it when it makes it to the table. I haven't gotten a chance to play the card version of the game but I don't think I'm super motivated to do so - we're still loving the board version!
For me, the answer is just most of the games that got me into board games... Catan, Munchkin, Smash Up, etc. They were ones I enjoyed at first, but I've found better ones.
Great episode, thanks! Catan is on my list, the Candyland of Euros. The strategy to randomness ratio is very low, and often first or last place is determined with a long long way to go. And Cities and Knights gives you even more time to wait for the pre-determined partial outcome!
Would like to know Tom's thoughts at GenCon when Eric Lang announced his next game called Rising Sun is heavily influenced by Diplomacy and whether Tom was hugely disappointed by that!
Heresy! You guys mentioned 5 games I see myself playing the rest of my life! -Brass -Steam -War of the Ring -Carson City -Castles of Mad King Ludwig On the other hand, I agree so much with you about Android Netrunner!
He has a review up. He has one from this manufacturer: www.rathskellers.com/. Here's his table review: www.dicetower.com/game-video/rathskellers-councilor-table-review-tom-vasel. Enjoy.
100% with Tom on Civ. The Eagle one fit that mold before there were good games. And there's lots of good in Sid's Civ from FFG, but I'd rather play TTA on the table or online, or the computer game... with VI coming out imminently too.
oh, I'm with Tom on Britannia too. I LOVED it in the old AH version in the early 90s. One of my faves. Played it a ton. Learned so much. But I'm absolutely done with it. Played the India one too. Done with that too. Too long for the fun for the kind of game I like now. But still was great for it's time.
This was an interesting video for me. I only started my collection of modern board games 3 or 4 years ago, and so far am up to about 30 games. With relatively so few games in my collection, it came as a shock to discover there are already games that I find myself avoiding - particularly as I once loved them so much! I'm not sure if any of them quite falls into the "I'll never play this again" category, but there's 2 that stand out for me that are certainly coming close to that. 1. Settlers of Catan This was my first modern board game and, along with Carcassonne, precedes what I consider to be the "start of my collection" by a number of years. I hadn't yet discovered the wealth of other games that were available as I contined to play Catan, and like so many other gamers it's formed a huge part of my gaming history, but I simply don't desire to play it any more. I think it's been over a year now since it last came to the table, despite me having almost every expansion available. So why doesn't this hit the table any more? Simply because I think there are better games out there. One frustrating element of Catan for me, that surfaced in virtually every game of it I ever played, was that at least 1 player would end up, relatively early on, being completely cut off from any chance of winning and would spend most of the game not being able to do anything much. Once they finally DID get to a point where they could start building, the end of the game was pretty much already decided. I don't like it when anyone is only still playing because to do so would ruin the sequence of the game for everyone else, and yet that happened all too often with Catan. I don't necessarily think Catan is a BAD game, and it's given me a lot of joy over the years, but now that I'm a more experienced gamer I know what I like more, and I know more clearly what I believe makes a good game, and Catan now sits there....largely forgotten, while my collection grows around it. Poor little guy. This same reasoning leads me on to my other game.... 2. Village Village was one of the first games I got once I'd discovered modern board gaming "properly".The Christmas my collection truly began, I received several new games, including Village. By the time it was wrapped under the tree, I'd spent several months discovering even more games that I wanted and already I was thinking that, despite my excitement at getting Village, there were already things I'd have probably asked for in it's place had I known they existed. As with Catan, I've had a lot of fun with this game, and I probably WILL still play this again at some point, but I have a friend who's recently discovered it and has suggested we play it several times of late, and each time I've found myself not really wanting to play. I think this again boils down to my increased exposure to, and experience with the wealth of games that are now out there. I like Village. I think it's a fun game.......the first few times. However, my recent games have all been pretty much the same game. This could partly be down to those I'm playing with, going for the same routes to victory every single time, but I've found the truth to be that there really just isn't that much choice in what to do from game to game, even with the Village Inn expansion (which helped with this to a point, but not as much as I'd hoped). With many other games that I like, I find myself choosing a different route to victory each time because either the game conditions are different from game to game, and therefore require a different strategy, or because I genuinely want to try something different. With Village, I find that, while I could pick something different to do from last game, I'm ultimately only doing so out of a desperate attempt not to play the exact same game I had last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. The problem with this is that, as I shift to a different victory route, so does everyone else, and so we still end up having the same game, but just with a shift round the table as to who's doing what. The predetermined routes are still there and there's not a lot of room for creative strategy here in my personal experience. Essentially, it's the variety in game play experience from game to game that I feel is lacking for me with this one and I just can't find the enthusiasm to suggest playing it again.
Yggdrasil is certainly a challenging game, but it can be fairly well "solved" (i.e. the optimal strategy is not too challenging to find if you play around with it for a while). Basically, you want to quickly clear the nearest bag of fire spirits/demons (whatever they're called) thus making it a guaranteed draw for the warriors you need (also, specialize each hero to combat a different enemy). I'd imagine this game has a similar challenge / skill curve to that of Ghost Stories, actually. :)
An excellent and highly respected game that I will never play again is Through the Ages. My friend brought it over and just destroyed any hope I shortly after starting Age II. I didn't want to spent the another hour just trying to stay afloat. I have never felt so horrible playing a game--this was the same person who taught me Terra Mystica, which I have never won (and I LOVE Terra Mystica now). TtA is just a painful experience for me. Never, ever, ever, ever.
a Great game i like to play is my friends game he made 2014. its a great game but my only problem to it is how long it takes to set up/clean up and playing can take 3-5 hours +1-2 more hours if you go after the elite bosses.
1) Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition, it's just too long for what it is, and I've never been a fan of "dudes in a map" type of games, even with the space diplomacy theming. The last game I played was so miserably boring that it just killed it for me. I've had bad games of it before, where the luck basically tanked the whole experience for one player (not necessarily for me), but this one made me realize... yeah, there are so many games I play much, much rather than this one, even if they don't give the same experience. (Plz no throat punching, I recognize its merits!) 2) Catan, I don't think games will ever evolve to a level after which I'd stop praising this game and deny its value as a fantastic introductory boardgame. However, I've played it so much and there comes a point when I can safely say I've played it enough. I cherish the experiences I've had with it and friendships I've found through those experiences, but the time has come to let it go. =) 3) Galaxy Trucker, once my favourite game, now nearly out of my collection. After the expansions, the game has become way too bloated to teach to new players and the vanilla game is not enough for my gaming group. I still love it, but again, there are so many games I'd rather play nowadays. 4) Samurai, such a splendid strategy game with a very clever scoring mechanic. However, I have played it so extensively that it has kind of given everything it has to offer. I can't see myself playing it again, unless there is some A-class persuasion abilities unleashed on me by someone who desperately wants to play it. 5) Chess, I can probably never convey through words just how much time I've invested to both watching, learning and playing this classic, even with all its flaws. I still watch game analysis from UA-cam occasionally and sometimes watch the championships matches, but I've no longer any desire to play it again.
It finally happened, the 1 in 400 chance that you all roll the same value. It brings me more joy than it really should.
That's the chances of 2 of them getting the same. 1/20 times 1/20 is 1/400 but you must multiple another 1/20 to get 1/8000
+Matt Bayes all 3 rolling specifically a "10" is 1/8000. But all 3 rolling the same (regardless of the value) is only 1/400. First number doesn't matter, only if the next 2 match it.
hmmm i need to go back to math class XP
Not all numbers would have been as noteworthy as 10, since it's a top ten list. If they had all rolled 12's, for example. 1, 6, 7, 11 and 20 would also have been noteworthy, so I give it a 6/8000 (3/4000). :P
Matt Bayes Possibly. The fact that you made a probability error while having the name Bayes is particularly ironic, though.
Next year's Kickstarter stretch goal: Tom plays Diplomacy.
For the right price!
I would LOVE to play Diplomacy with Tom!
Better yet. Netrunner with all three of them!
6:28 that interaction with the pen is so amazing I couldn't stop laughing
is there a Top Ten Guilty Pleasure games? like, games they are embarrassed or feel silly about liking? I'd watch that for sure.
Art by Galen k
@@FaceInAClock why even bother commenting
Maybe one of those casual "trash" which are still fun anyway, or games which break the usual wisdom about agency, balance, elimination etc yet somehow aren't less fun that their "properly designed" contemporaries
I have to say that this so far your best made, edited, and structured video so far. Fluent conversation and overall great subject for top10 list - job well done!
The 3 of you included Netrunner on this list and even for the same reason. There is the obvious solution that you play the game against eachother ... I was a bit surprised to hear that you all said that you find nobody to play it with. If it's a good game (never played it myself), it shouldn't be a problem convincing eachother.
Regarding 7 Ages, it tells you right on the box. It takes 6000 years to play.
Would be interesting to revisit this list in a few years and see if they did end up playing any of them.
It's been a few years!
@@peterc.hayward8067 sure has! 😅
I love turning on these guys in the background, ya I'll pay attention the first time I watch. But just half listening with the silliness in the background. It's a ton of fun.
Ha I rewatched again two years later...
Great top 10 Keep up the good work!
Just to clarify everyone, Caravelas is about the Portuguese Discoveries, ships are from Portugal, not from Spain. It is okay to mix both up but i would like to pass the message :-P
WCP4to but it is NOT ok to mix both...
1:23 At first I thought he said "Panda McLegacy," and I was like, "Why have I never heard of this game?!"
Our brains can be dumb sometimes.
MrOneofthousands1994 I would play that game!
I almost died laughing at this comment.
MrOneofthousands1994 someone SHOULD make this game! ☺️
Ricochet Robots is probably my most favorite board game, ever. It's cool, it's quick, it requires you to think and noone ever is responsible for your defeat except your skill. Very little room for sheer luck. More than that, it scales for any group easily (cannot be easier, I believe) and you can practice it alone if your want, and it definitely wakes up your attention and focus. I'm not supergood at it, but I'm fine, and in a good company and good state of mind I'd play every time I'm offered to.
Ah the curse of becoming a Tourney game. People who don't know it very well, and people who optimize the heck out of it. Not a pleasant domain for people who know it, and DON'T want to deep dive the mechanics. I guess you could go in drafting, but the super players still have the advantage.
Regarding Zee talking about "But Wait There's More", what if you play a house rule variant where everybody gets a different random product card instead of everybody using the same product? That seems like it would solve the issue he had with the game.
Doug Rosengard that breaks the theme of the game. It's a rip on 'those' infomercials. The players aren't selling different vacuums, they are telling you different features of the same one.
Zee, the "BSG in an hour" you want is Dark Moon. It literally started as a shorter BSG, a fan made variant called "BSG Express". It cuts out movement and ship combat for a 60-90 minute game. It also replaces the cards for skill check with hidden die rolls. The traitors will try to submit bad rolls, claiming it was the best they rolled. Players have to eventually determine who is lying. It works SO much better than the cards. Shortened BSG meets Liar's Dice.
Sounds like something zee would really love
Tabletop Simulator for the PC is the best thing to happen to introduce new players to X-Wing, imo. I'm just starting out with it and I agree that it's way too daunting on the surface, but having TTS available to play with my friends, netdeck lists, and see what's fun to play, allows me to play the game without limits, and figure out what minis I want to drop my cash on.
I'm not sure I will ever play Pandemic again. I love the game, but after playing Legacy, I just don't see the regular game being as exciting or engaging for me. we just finished legacy, so maybe I'm just burnt out on it right now, but regular pandemic will not be seeing the table for me in a while.
Sam, here it comes. The inevitable argument surely foreseen to be made for WAR OF THE RING: According to the books, the nature of things was that the Shadow had long planned the war below the surface and pushed it to the surface at a time that seemed entirely in its favor. The other nations' reactions to the development and to the actual run of that war were quite different. In my humble opinion, the game mirrors the described outset inequalities, varying approaches, diplomatic issues, strategic problems, as well as the impossibilities of carrying it out against a massive, even overpowering opponent very nicely and very thematically. And the game does more: It let's you explore a ton of possible options to re-write the war in most of its parts besides also finding the time for individual stories and tragedies (a genius stretch). I would argue that the game let's you re-write a loved (war) plot more elegantly and thoroughly than many other games claim to do (e.g. Star Wars: Rebllion, after some plays most possible plot twists seem to have been revealed). Just because a war does not follow the all to usual line of "boom, here we all are, let's all fire away and see who stands last" does not mean that a) it is not a war and b) it is not a very intriguing war (to be carried out on cardboard that is). Yes, they could have found another title like "THE UNFOLDING, THE EXECUTION AND THE END OF THE WAR OF THE RING" but how pedantic would that have been? And how pedantic is it for us to make a request in that regard. That a player has not moved his nation(s) "at war" at the right time may be very well founded on his own making. The game is complex and long and does not hit my table as much as I would like but once it unfolds (even with its current and upcoming expansions) it does shine. I would have loved to play it against you.
I agree.
Even in todays world conflict does not have to lead to all out war. Look at Ukraine - Russia practically took part of it but no war aggains Russia is waged by its allies.
Perhaps folks in Middle Earth were not attacked by the Shadow but decided (by referendum or similar means) that thay would want to ally with Sauron. Look at Saruman - this is exactly what he did ;)
It is all peacetalks and misunderstandings, no need to automatically go to war, Sam.
Besides, Gondor practically starts at war. It's just your other POTENTIAL allies that don't. Plus, wotr is more epic.
I think Sam got the wrong idea, as many ppl did when first played it. The good side never wants to make an all scale war with Shadow, because it's a suicidal mission. When human, elf or dwarf dies, they die. When Orcs, Goblins, Uruk hai die, they go back to the reserve. The fellowship needs to bring the ring to Mordor, while others tried to hold the ground until the ring is destroyed, NOT marching to Mordor. Besides the Fellowship only needs 4 military points to win. Use some action to threat some weakly defended Shadow forts.
The game for me is elegantly designed, everything seems to cope well with the movie (i didnt read the book, stopped after Bilbo saga). Have the fellowship moving around, send Aragorn, Legolas... to armies to help, sneak attack, march armies to force Shadow engage to make some nation at war.... A lot of things to try that can make me play it any day.
Christoph Rehse Well said all! Waited ten years to play it with my son and it doesn't disappoint!
Well Said Christoph Rehse. War of the Ring is, by far, my favorite game. I'm just learning to use the two expansions for it, and find that they add so much to an already amazing game!
Totally agree with the xwing/net runner thoughts. Star Trek Attack Wing fits in that same bill also. I also struggle with the fact you have to spend at least an hour planning your game build, probably even longer than that now, before you even sit at the table to play. In the early stages it was a 1/2 hour, which for what looks like a coffee table game is still too long. But it's a well designed game and fun to play if you have time and people your skill level to match with.
Sad thing is. I feel every cardgame has the Android: Netrunner problem. At a certain moment you just need to go with the hardcore crowd and go along with the meta or not be able to play with the vast majority of people. And if you do you won't have a very good time cause you have very little chance of winning.
I feel like Summoner Wars avoids this. Yes, you can buy Reinforcement Packs, but for the most part you don't deck build, you just hand a person a deck, take another one, and go for it. Star Realms, likewise. Basically the games that don't have you preconstructing your deck.
Honestly it really depends on your community. As someone who's been playing magic since highschool, I've experienced both good communities that welcome anyone to play and others that made me quit for a couple years. The good thing with magic is that if you play with set decks, or give a new player a deck you designed to be pretty competitive, I find they can usually catch on to how the game plays and you don't have to really dumb down your decision making. A collectible game I would recommend that I'm in love with is a card/dice hybrid called dicemasters. While it still has meta cards that dominate, the fun thing is most characters are playable, and there are things like globals and basic actions that are shared between both players. Some of the most powerful things in the game both players will have access to if someone brings it in their team.
Yeah, I agree. That's exactly why I stopped playing Magic the first time. (I kind of got into it again when some friends started playing Commander, since that's different enough from "normal" Magic for the game to not be "solved" right away, but I lost interest again when a lot of friends started making very competitive decks...)
So far though, Force of Will has been pretty fun in my area. I think part of the key is having a game where there's a lot of choices to make during the game, as opposed to coming up with a strategy when you build the deck and only slightly varying it to counter specific decks you go up against.
+Dexter Mahler netrunner is starting a rotation in early 2017. they are getting rid of the first two blocks (12 packs) which did have a couple of overpowered cards.
I know you don't mean EVERY card game, because there are a ton of fun games either using cards in addition to other mechanics (as a main part of the game) or are just card games, that are still great for beginners and people who've been playing for awhile. Sushi Go is fantastic once you explain how the cards and scoring work, Gloom is a game where even if you lose, the storytelling of a group will make up most of the enjoyment anyway, Sheriff of Nottingham is fantastic and I feel the base game of the Warhammer LCG is fine as well. Games that aren't solely card games, but has cards as a huge aspect of the game, that still allow for both crowds to enjoy, would be Abyss, Lords of Waterdeep. With Magic, if you're playing with a newcomer there are fun ways to keep it fun, tweaking decks to mostly be of uncommons/rares, buying Commander decks and even (as a one time only deal) buy you and your friend(s) intro decks to start things off OR buy booster packs together. There are ways to makes thing fun, you just really need to avoid the people that ONLY want to win, they tend to be unfun at every experience of play.
And yes, you probably meant every card game that's a CCG, TCG or LCG, but I think things can apply to other games that use cards and end up with expansions/mini expansions. But I think at the end of the day, it REALLY comes down to people who want to play games to have fun and try to win but don't ruin it for others and then the competitive crowd that are there solely to win at any and all costs.
I've made this mistake with every FFG LCG that I've tried. You get a core set, dip your feet in, this is great, oooh, some packs, OH DEAR LORD THEY WON'T STOP COMING. They milk them to death and you either keep up with the flood or rapidly fall behind and have no one to play with. Then you're managing all the decks for anyone you do still play with, and it gets boring because you've built all the decks and anyone who plays you really doesn't give that much of a crap about how a deck does because they didn't build it.
Completely agree
Doomtown. Still keeping up with GOT and thinking about Ashes, but scared. Agreed and only played a few times of AN, too much
While I can’t fault a company for wanting to keep hitting the cash register, it is awful when a game just keeps changing like that.
I’m a much bigger fan of new maps/consistent rules (Power Grid, TTR, Formula D, &c) than new components which shift the entire balance of a game.
Oh wait, so both Tom, Sam and Zee all had Netrunner on a list for the same reason that they don't have anyone to play the game casually.
Dude, maybe play it together?!?
Exactly!
As someone who played with a friend casually for a long time: you get used to someone else's style real fast. Both of us weren't strangers to branching out (except I will never play HB because it's full of scum), but we still came to understand what each other was looking for and either playing into it at our own detriment or building to counter it at theirs.
Both?
I know how Tom and Sam feel about Netrunner. That's why I only play with just the Core set. I'm glad some friends of mine like it that way as well.
oh snap, I didn't expect the game to be on Zee's list as well.XD should've waited a bit vefore posting.
Agreed. That is the only way I would consider playing net runner. It doesn't have to be core vs core, but it does have to be one fixed data pack/core deck vs another. No mixing from all the sets. Just too much to know to be effective and building a deck.
I think one of the big things with Netrunner is that the design of the game is very different, and took quite a long time to figure the game out. It's not so much an expansion thing (decks for a long time ran mostly core set cards, and you can do fine for the most part), it's just more of a player-base learning curve.
Magic (and it's derivatives) have a much more straight-forward value analysis. This card costs X and has Y strength and is fundamentally very tit-for-tat. It's not as simple as that (or at least it's not that) in Netrunner.
I agree that magics card value determination is a lot more straight forward, but in both cases knowledge of and access to all existing cards and time played both continue to drive the odds of winning higher. It has a very long curve of expertise. Too long for my taste. Too much of an investment to move up that curve.
Yeah, I agree. Having loved the original I avoided Netrunner for ages, but eventually I took the plunge and got a core set plus about 3 data packs and took about 8 cards out of each so that the base decks can be tweaked and have a few nasties put in them ever so slightly (5 mins at the start of playing). This does us fine - the great reboot with the different factions included in the base box gives enough to play the game with some variety. I will _never_ play competitively, nor play someone else's deck, and I have no interest in doing so, so what I've got is a perfect amount for what I want from the game. If you are tempted by the game (and it's great) and are happy to all play out of the same box, then I'd recommend it.
Love the reference to F-Zero and Wipeout. I've met some tabletop players that seem to hold themselves above video games for some reason, it's nice to know that isn't the case here. Respect, Zee! :P
Thought for sure I would see Axis & Allies from someone's list. It's a great game that Sam and Tom may never play again.
What Tom says about X-Wing Miniatures is kind of how I feel about Magic: The Gathering. I think it's a great game, but everyone I know that still plays is too serious about building their decks/collections. I want to be able to play casually without a tournament-honed, up-to-date deck against someone else who is similarly casual about their deck-building.
Draft sealed prereleases commander there is ways to play casually
I really like how you leave up the number markers and titles while people are talking. It makes it easier to skip through the video. Great job!
Wow guys! I think this was the best top 10 you have ever produced. You all make valid points backed up with solid opinions. I was engrossed the entire time. Partly because of the conglomerate knowledge base but mostly because of the way you 3 get along, have fun and laugh. :) (and no Jason) Thanks for all that you do! BTW: just got my promo packs and having almost too much fun ;) And Hey .. I want that Lime-Green Dice Tower shirt! Take mah monay nao, Plox!
Sam, in "Caravelas" the ships depart from Portugal, not Spain. :)
The two games that I can think of right now:
- 1830: Felt like going to work. I can appreciate it's really well put together, but I just didn't have fun playing it.
- Splendor: It's a well-designed game, easy, short and addictive. And this is why I grew tired of it after playing more than 50 times already. I also don't like the feeling when after buying a card, the one that comes next was better for you in all regards. I know it's how the game plays, it is just me: I don't enjoy it anymore.
No this is actually an amazing list, instead of doing something they've already done a bunch of times w lots of crossover they chose something unique.
and the bants are top notch now, they've definitely grown into their role as entertainers (re: Sam and zee's improvised onomatopoeia duet).
TI4. I went to a teach-and-play and it was still an overwhelming experience. I'd rather play a few games in the time it takes to play one match of TI4.
How do you get a full game of 7 Ages in in 7 hours? It usually takes us about 10 hours to play through 3 of the ages and we're playing it quick and there is very little downtime in our games.
Was expecting Chaos in the Old World. Didn't you guys say the mechanics were solid, despite the theme being too much for you? Don't remember much about it.
I agree with X-Wing to an extent, and the trouble is that the designers have gone nuts with the abilities and special cards and such, to the point where the build is often more important than how you fly. I've played in a number of tournaments, even won a few, but the metagame in X-Wing right now is cancerous. The game needs to go back to the focus being on maneuver and dogfighting, not ability combos and turrets to avoid having to bother with any maneuver at all.
Netrunner is fantastic. I think the only thing it suffers from is required card knowledge to play. Even being out of the game for a few months can mean you're screwed.
I not only think Brass is a masterpiece, it’s also unique and far ahead of its time. When board games were just starting to produce these elegant and refined systems of balance, the fact Brass was made at the time long before this is incredible. It’s a good decade ahead of its time.
What a prescient comment! Kudos to you, goodperson!
6.30 true friendship
18:26 As Edward Uhler of Heavy Cardboard says, "Plan better". It really is not that difficult to avoid going bankrupt in Age Of Steam, as long as you are thinking out what you want to do and how much it will cost. If you are able to survive the first few turns, after that you should be fine. The only reasons why you might have to go watch TV instead of staying in the game is because you mis-anticipate some thing (s) that could happen in the game which are beyond your own control - but you are at the mercy of your opponents - for example, if someone blocks you on the map (since it is a very interactive game).
Gloomhaven... the "Here's hundreds of hours of play in one box!" thing was awesome at the time, but now other developers keep making games like that, and there's only so much time in the day! My social group got about halfway through the modules, but there's so many other things out there on our "to play" list, it just no longer feels like it makes sense to spend yet more time on Gloomhaven... While not as fresh as it used to be, it's not really that it go stale, just we all agree we'd prefer to spend time on something newer. While I can sort of imagine being like "Hey, know what was fun? Gloomhaven. I miss that" some day, I can't imagine ACTUALLY busting it out and playing a module knowing we aren't actually getting back into it, and I definitely don't see us saying "Let's go back to routinely playing Gloomhaven. Great game, but probably dead to me.
X-Wing is another that just took off and passed me by at light speed. I couldn't possibly keep up with the pace of collecting other players were able to maintain.
Twilight Struggle. I enjoyed it. I can appreciate the design. But after a bunch of games, the luck factor just plays too large of a part to invest the 3 hours (and stress!) anymore. The first turn card draw, the first coup, war events, Quagmire/Bear Trap, all those are huge swings that come down to a single die roll and it's just not fun when bad luck with one of those single rolls sends you into a death spiral that costs you the game.
Why does Zee always hold me in such suspense before he announces the game? :)
I have to counter-argue Tom's choice of Sid Meier's Civ being preferred on the computer. I personally prefer playing it multiplayer as a board game because there aren't connection issues (which have become so much more numerous to the point that games can't be completed in Civ 6), and I'm able to complete a full game of Civilization in a single day.
Hey Dice Tower. Idea: Top 10 Character Sheets, or Character Boards for a Board Game. I think its a pretty important aspect, u love bigger, smaller, more complex, a lot of attributes, simple, lot of changeable things... thats an idea. Whats ur favourite character sheet? U love to write with pencil, u use tokens on it, u love to place cards on it, it has an inventory, what kind of inventory.... etc.
Actually, I'd like to see this as well. A critique of the physical aspects of the game, rather than just the mechanics. That's an interesting topic.
I know that there's a distinction between the feel of using tiny colored blocks vs. using meeples, and there's a difference for me between using the official Pathfinder sheets and using sheets I designed for myself to put the information in a visual order that makes better sense to my brain (e.g. combat section vs. noncombat, and the items in the order they'd be referred to within the encounter, and the skills by category instead of alphabetical).
I recently played Arkham Horror with a new set of rules.. and it was frantic.
never thought I would play a 3hour game of Arkham followed by a 2 hour game of it.
(basically, a portal per investigator following just the portal and clue lines and following the full card of the first player, Portals take two hits on the same location to open, in this rules there are rifts and different ways of dealing with a rift and a portal - it takes 1-2 turns to close a rift, 2-3 to close a portal... it means a LOT happening all the time.)
The reason X-Wing is on this list is one of the two main reasons I didn't play it in the first place. Keeping up with expansions and watching the old stuff be rendered nearly obsolete by them is just far too expensive.
The other is the fact that an overlarge number of players out there are just pulling lists/builds down from the internet and playing them to a set of instructions written by whoever came up with the build in the first place. That's why I quit playing CCGs, most wargames, and PVP in MMOs.
Once Jay Little left the game definitely took on a more tournament style LCG/CCG feel. Too bad, the early game design was epic.
Great top ten! Good concept.
Also Tom, I thought the same as you for Floater
Tom live-plays Diplomacy as a super high stretch goal in the next DT Kickstarter? ;P
Sounds great to me!
Magic: The Gathering
I used to play this game A LOT. even landed top 8 at a Pro-Your Qualifier once. But that game is long gone for me. They just pump expansion after expansion out and it's hard to keep up. And even to just play casually, I'd have to invest in the starter decks and I'd rather put that money towards games that a wider variety of people can enjoy.
Thanks for another great list guys!
I love netrunner, and teaching it, but I am use to teaching games so I know how to present myself and the game. however I can understand how it is hard to get to the table, and how someone would be turned off by it.
Three people saying they can't find someone to play Netrunner with that wants to play it more casually. Why don't you just play it with each other?
My issue with all CCGs but particularly Netrunner is I have this threshold of complexity with deck building, where the more complicated building a good deck is, the more I like it, up to a certain point where if becomes SO much work, it starts feeling like a chore... This moment is really easy to catch, it's when a new set drops and instead of being excited to build new casual decks, I go "Sh*t, now I have to update all my competitive decks".
Netrunner is so complex it was deeply satisfying to me when it came out, but I've never had my interest in a card game run it's course so fast... I was basically done by the second large expansion.
Completely agree on Netrunner.
I enjoy playing games casually, but some games simply have no casual players. It's not the game's fault, and it doesn't make the game "bad".
Axis & Allies Global. A friend of mine in Dayton OH bought a kitchen table specifically to fit that game on (super long map board), but after playing it a ton of times, the length of the game is just too monstrously long.
Caravelas: The game theme is the Portuguese Discoveries in the 15th and 16th century, and their contribution to Portuguese wealth, symbolized in the Jerónimos Monastery. It is an historic fact that the spices trade, brought by the Caravelles, had to pay a tax of 5% in Lisbon, and this tax was used to pay for the monastery construction.
Doomtown Reloaded, while not as complex as Netrunner had the same problem. Everyone was obsessed over getting every release, and I just wanted to make a few perfect decks to play with friends. Anytime I asked for help in building a deck, the answer was bascially buy everything and use a few cards from each pack.
I agree with you guys on how it's difficult to play against people who dedicate a large amount of time to a game. I stopped playing Magic the Gathering because people were creating these decks that were basically destroying me in a few turns and also they got frustrated when it didn't work right. Now, I have no problem if they want to grab to brand new Core Decks out of the box and play, but they won't play that way because it's not "their deck". It's not that I don't like the games, I just can't dedicate the same amount of time that they can.
The other kicker about the people that are more dedicated is that I've played against some that try to get things past you hoping you, either A) don't know about the rule, or B) don't catch it. During an X-Wing event, I had someone watching my match and during my opponents turn he stepped in with "hey, that's not how that weapon is played". Thankfully we just had a nice conversation about the ruling on the card with the event sponsor and went about our match peacefully.
The main draw with MTG is crafting that perfect deck to win so I see why they do it. But for the life of me, I don't understand the lack of empathy that many players have toward new players. It's not hard to crush a newbie. I always tried to help new players get better and put myself at a disadvantage so I could challenge myself at the same time. It's like arm wrestling 5 year olds : is there any way for you to lose? So why bother?!?! It's not a real victory.
I've been playing Android: Netrunner for about 8 months now. I started out playing with a friend who was also new to the game, and we would just keep playing, and expanding, to the point that we are now playing at a fairly competitive level with the local "scene". Prior to playing netrunner I used to play a variety of board games, card games, and dice games, mostly 2-player ones. Now I rarely play those games, even though I still like them, because I'd usually rather play netrunner. It's a great game, but I think it's really important to play the game with people of similar skill level, so that your skills develop naturally as you play, rather than you being taught/told what to do. From what I can tell, the woman you mention should have just let you play freely and enjoy the game.
34:05 Well Tom, What do you think of Brass: Birmingham? Does it change enough for you by making things more open and easy-going (i.e., with the addition of beer)?
I'd be interested to hear why you feel the way you do about Netrunner (which I agree with), but not Dice Masters. As a collectible/constructible game with a tournament scene, doesn't Dice Masters check off all the same boxes that you dislike about Netrunner (minus having two names for everything)?
but the dice, the dice...
The must have found more casual players.
I think a bit key to keeping CCG-type games from getting stale is to have a lot of variety and a lot of decision making during the actual game. I'm not familiar enough with Netrunner to say for sure about it, but I know most of the time with Magic, I'm not making very many real decisions during a game that I haven't already planned out in advance when building the deck. On the other hand, with Dicemasters having the deckbuilding-ish element (and the element of some cards being open for both players to pick from), there's a lot more decisions that come into play when playing the game that you don't necessarily script out beforehand.
Netrunner is mostly skill over luck. In a skill game, the better player will always win. It would be hard to find someone of equal lower skill level to play Netrunner with.
I've finally sworn off (and sold) most of the "classic" (Avalon Hill, SPI, VG) war games I played innumerable times during the 1960-80's. The nostalgic glow I used to feel when taking these off the shelf was finally outweighed by the combined negatives of simplistic rules, limited play options and crude component design.
What happened to the table top between 8 and 7?
I wish I could get Netrunner to the table. I don't know anything about the hardcore scene, nor do I care. But complex 2 player only games are hard as hell to find players for :(
Tom is crazy in regards to x-wing though.
You should go to the tournaments.
Netrunner is not nearly as bad to get into as people think. Go to your local meta meetings (you can usually find them on facebook, google or satellite-grid.blogspot.com) and bring both a corp deck and a runner deck. Then just ask someone to teach you the basics and play with you using your own constructed decks. That should be much more fun and easy to get into than the degeneracy that's going on in the competitive meta right now.
I could have done a better job with phrasing this.
I don't think so. I am VERY interested in X-Wing, but will never play it for the same reason. My local gaming shop is always running tournaments, and have teams going to tournaments, so it would be like playing 1 on 1 basketball with Jordan. I would never be able to compete.
Subangelis Gaming FFG uses the swiss tournament system for all their officially endorsed events and just due to how this system works after just one or two rounds you will be paired up with people of similar skill. Of course during your first tournaments you WILL finish lower, but eventually this goes away.
"It just got nasty up in here" yeah, it was real classy when we were just talking about corpses.
I'm with the guys on Android/ccg/lcg style games. As someone who only casually plays a couple of those sorts of games I will not play them away from home. The main reason is that person they described. There is always someone looking over your shoulder snorting every time you play a card or looking down their nose at you because "Oh, you only have the (insert game specific vocab here) cycle/edition in you hand, fleet etc. It's not just those games that suffer from the issue. Chaz Marler touched on it in his Meeples for Sheepish peoples series with his Jamaica experience. There is always that one girl/guy that behaves like this, giving snorts of derision or the "Oh that's cute" style comment when you mention/play/ask about something. That can include staff at games shops!! It is something that can put people off the hobby and happens a lot. I'm pleased these guys often bring it up, last time I think it was in the ideal games shop top 10 list.
Have you ever played chess against a Grandmaster who plays chess for a living? I have. I never stood a chance of course, but the GM had the decency to let me play my game; only after the game (of which he had remembered every single move) he taught me a bit about what he had seen and how I could have played better. It was a fantastic experience that made my love of chess greater, not smaller.
I am sorry to hear that one person spoiled Netrunner for you guys, but I fail to see why that should be the case. I have taught the game to a few friends, and we play it occasionally. We only use the core deck and don't care about the expansions: the core deck already makes for a very rich and deep game. I am sure people who are really into Netrunner would say we are missing out, but I would also hope they would have the decency to let us play, and may be only afterwards show us something of how rich and deep it is at their level. And if they really love the game, they might even enjoy the experience of going back to playing with the core deck just for once as well.
To put it differently: I am sure Kobe Bryant would find my lack of basketball skills painful to watch and he would be right about that. But why should that stop me and my friends from playing and enjoying ourselves?
Aha! Called Sam's number 1. Interesting thing is I was just thinking about getting it. I'm also a fan of Memoir 44 but I'm fond of the ancient/classical period and I don't care about blocks or minis. I'll take another look at the PDF rules and decide in the near future. I suspect I'll get Ancients even though I usually agree with Sam.
Did you get it? It's the best 2-player game that I have played. I have been through all the expansions and scenarios. If you like Memoir 44 and just want something a little extra. C&C Ancients is the right game for you.
Oh man, the TI3 play through will be AMAZING
Great list!
Have they ever mentioned, when they will do the TI3 play through? I can't wait for it...
Tom mentioned,in mondays Q&A IIRC, he will be talking to one of the players this week so might be able to confirm a time by the weekend. He thinks probably sometime in September.
+Steve Weshinskey Sam and Jason better be in this.
Steve Weshinskey Cool, thank you!
Straddllw
Sam of course, I don't know about Jason but I doubt it. I believe its going to be a 4 player game, Tom,Sam,Zee and the 4th player Tom inferred would be a member of their gaming group that usually isn't on the show. But I really have no idea, I wouldn't think Tom would say 'I need to talk to the other player' rather than 'I need to talk to Jason'. Now if its a 5 player game probably Jason as well.
Whoops had to edit. it was easier to come up with games I didn't like to begin with. In order from least controversial to most possibly:
Honorable mention: Monopoly - A childhood game that has roll and move for resources and a length problem. Too bad I wasn't a kid in this era.
10. Risk - Of course there are tons of other games that do it better but this was once the go to strategy war game for me.
9. Dragon Strike - Great fun and hilarious VHS tape with 90's special effects. Dungeon crawlers sure have come a long way.
8. Munchkin - Need I even say why? Most of us have moved on and those who haven't...really like to troll 9 Exp friends for hours.
7. Tsuro - I thought it was neat initially and that wore off pretty quick. Again, the game plays out too samey and takes too long to get to the end.
6. Sushi Go! - Good drafting game with fun art but there are way too many deeper drafting games for me to be distracted by this one ever again. Another one that was great initially but wore off fast.
5. Forbidden Desert/island - A good series of games but again there are other games that eclipse them in the cooperative action management genre.
4. Magic the Gathering - Really good card game but for the price of the game I could get into so many other card and board games that I can't be bothered. I hate to see artificial rarity in our hobby's products.
3. Kingsburg - Really liked this game when I was newer to the hobby but I think even with the expansion, the gameplay plays too similarly and not very interestingly compared to all the other games out there, even the
ligher stuff.
2. Catan - Still a really popular game but I really am not into trading/negotiation and there are more fun euros out there. The gateway has been left behind.
1. King of Tokyo - It was part of several games that were fun when I first got into this hobby but now the game play is not exciting and throwing the large dice and fun theme can't bring it back for me.
Was the card Jackson Howard? On the Netrunner thing? Hahaha, it's totally needed on most corp decks.
Great video guys! I am curious to know if any of you would play Vlaada's Mage Knight Board game again (this would be my personal #1). It is an amazing game that packs in tons of great mechanics; dice drafting, deck building, world exploration, etc. I personally feel that it packs too much into a single game, and the resulting rules complexity is too steep a step for me to re-learn just for a one-off 3 hour gaming experience. I'll just play dice masters to cover the drafting and deck building , and rinse it down with Return of the Heroes for world exploration.
Shout out to Tom and Sam; I hope that I one day play Overpower again!
That and the components are (no offense) complete ass compared to what's on the market, aka Gloomhaven, Mechs vs Minions, Twilight Imperium, etc.
Also has alot of poorly explained/implemented/needlessly confusing mechanics that would have made the game better without. (Such as resistances and how they work, passive armor, what allies can do, how summoning units attack, how some of the scenarios work).
Does Android Netrunner have a handicap system? I still haven't played my copy (way too late to the party, I know), and am hoping there's some kind of equalizer between players of different skill levels.
Like in Go :)
And as for the "why" I might not play a game I really enjoyed again (or at least much much less)...
- Replaced by something better (e.g. for me that was chess --> Go; played former for a decade, latter for now 15-20 years with only a few games of chess interspersed)
- Just played it so many times that I feel it's going to be the same / nothing more to explore (at least with the same players). TtR and Wizard are starting to feel like that to me (usually play with spouse and family, and we know each other's style too well).
Wasn't Chang Cheng released by Zman? Maybe it was only distributed by them, but I'm pretty sure Z Man had something to do with Chang Cheng in America.
There is a card version of Kingsport Festival that is supposed to be out this year, maybe that'll get you to revisit the game Zee.
This was fun to watch; thanks! I just noticed that at some point you took the leaves off the table. I'm curious what went on there...
Sam got something wrong. In Caravelas it is Portugal that is the focus of the game, not Spain. We are quite proud of our history and Gil D'Orey makes most of his games in a way that Portugal is always part of it.
You want a long game? Try 15 players Civilizaiton: The Expansion Project. we used to set aside a weekend (fri-sun) for that
Zee talking about But Wait, There's More, I agree, first time I played I thought it was supposed to be different items. Then played by rules and it's better with different items. You can easily play that way
Tom can you pass the name of the GO's Korean Channel?
Don't know it, just saw it when flipping through the channels.
I am with Tom, in that Diplomacy is the only game I will flat out refuse to ever play again. I played a single game of it with some friends of mine via an online web version that lasted for MONTHS. About two months into the game, I got stabbed by my closest ally, and I was shocked at how deeply it hurt me. Even though all the players were people I knew, we had been assigned countries at random, and were anonymous to each other - so I didn't know who had stabbed me until the game ended a month or so later. I realized it was not healthy to be that emotionally invested in a game, so I have declined to ever play again. (And eventually, I forgave my backstabbing friend, though I spent the rest of the game offering to help any other player who would attack him, since he could never completely wipe me out.)
Chang Cheng looks cool but we weren't a huge fan of some of the wonky area control aspects... it was a middle of the road game for me and my room is too small for those!
Zee, you make me sad that you don't want to play Basari anymore. I heard about the game through word of mouth and ended up getting a used copy, and it's an absolute blast to play. Everyone loves it when it makes it to the table. I haven't gotten a chance to play the card version of the game but I don't think I'm super motivated to do so - we're still loving the board version!
For me, the answer is just most of the games that got me into board games... Catan, Munchkin, Smash Up, etc. They were ones I enjoyed at first, but I've found better ones.
Great episode, thanks! Catan is on my list, the Candyland of Euros. The strategy to randomness ratio is very low, and often first or last place is determined with a long long way to go. And Cities and Knights gives you even more time to wait for the pre-determined partial outcome!
Would like to know Tom's thoughts at GenCon when Eric Lang announced his next game called Rising Sun is heavily influenced by Diplomacy and whether Tom was hugely disappointed by that!
Dice Tower guys - you could play Netrunner among yourselves, you know :)
Heresy! You guys mentioned 5 games I see myself playing the rest of my life!
-Brass
-Steam
-War of the Ring
-Carson City
-Castles of Mad King Ludwig
On the other hand, I agree so much with you about Android Netrunner!
Just a quick question, what type of table do you have now?
He has a review up. He has one from this manufacturer: www.rathskellers.com/. Here's his table review: www.dicetower.com/game-video/rathskellers-councilor-table-review-tom-vasel.
Enjoy.
Anyone know what happened to the Geek Chic table he had?
I believe he said that Sam has it now.
Yes Sam has it.
Tom, what do you think about Tail Feathers? Have you played it?
100% with Tom on Civ. The Eagle one fit that mold before there were good games. And there's lots of good in Sid's Civ from FFG, but I'd rather play TTA on the table or online, or the computer game... with VI coming out imminently too.
oh, I'm with Tom on Britannia too. I LOVED it in the old AH version in the early 90s. One of my faves. Played it a ton. Learned so much. But I'm absolutely done with it. Played the India one too. Done with that too. Too long for the fun for the kind of game I like now. But still was great for it's time.
I love storytelling games! You guys should do your Top 10 Storytelling Games!!
Have all 3 of them player more than 10 different ones?
Tom said there may be a price at which he would play Diplomacy. How about making it a stretch goal in the kickstarter next year?
I suppose I'm that rare player. I've got a friend that we occassionally play Android Netrunner, but just with the base decks it came with.
This was an interesting video for me. I only started my collection of modern board games 3 or 4 years ago, and so far am up to about 30 games. With relatively so few games in my collection, it came as a shock to discover there are already games that I find myself avoiding - particularly as I once loved them so much! I'm not sure if any of them quite falls into the "I'll never play this again" category, but there's 2 that stand out for me that are certainly coming close to that.
1. Settlers of Catan
This was my first modern board game and, along with Carcassonne, precedes what I consider to be the "start of my collection" by a number of years. I hadn't yet discovered the wealth of other games that were available as I contined to play Catan, and like so many other gamers it's formed a huge part of my gaming history, but I simply don't desire to play it any more. I think it's been over a year now since it last came to the table, despite me having almost every expansion available.
So why doesn't this hit the table any more? Simply because I think there are better games out there. One frustrating element of Catan for me, that surfaced in virtually every game of it I ever played, was that at least 1 player would end up, relatively early on, being completely cut off from any chance of winning and would spend most of the game not being able to do anything much. Once they finally DID get to a point where they could start building, the end of the game was pretty much already decided. I don't like it when anyone is only still playing because to do so would ruin the sequence of the game for everyone else, and yet that happened all too often with Catan.
I don't necessarily think Catan is a BAD game, and it's given me a lot of joy over the years, but now that I'm a more experienced gamer I know what I like more, and I know more clearly what I believe makes a good game, and Catan now sits there....largely forgotten, while my collection grows around it. Poor little guy. This same reasoning leads me on to my other game....
2. Village
Village was one of the first games I got once I'd discovered modern board gaming "properly".The Christmas my collection truly began, I received several new games, including Village. By the time it was wrapped under the tree, I'd spent several months discovering even more games that I wanted and already I was thinking that, despite my excitement at getting Village, there were already things I'd have probably asked for in it's place had I known they existed.
As with Catan, I've had a lot of fun with this game, and I probably WILL still play this again at some point, but I have a friend who's recently discovered it and has suggested we play it several times of late, and each time I've found myself not really wanting to play.
I think this again boils down to my increased exposure to, and experience with the wealth of games that are now out there. I like Village. I think it's a fun game.......the first few times. However, my recent games have all been pretty much the same game. This could partly be down to those I'm playing with, going for the same routes to victory every single time, but I've found the truth to be that there really just isn't that much choice in what to do from game to game, even with the Village Inn expansion (which helped with this to a point, but not as much as I'd hoped).
With many other games that I like, I find myself choosing a different route to victory each time because either the game conditions are different from game to game, and therefore require a different strategy, or because I genuinely want to try something different. With Village, I find that, while I could pick something different to do from last game, I'm ultimately only doing so out of a desperate attempt not to play the exact same game I had last time, and the time before that, and the time before that. The problem with this is that, as I shift to a different victory route, so does everyone else, and so we still end up having the same game, but just with a shift round the table as to who's doing what. The predetermined routes are still there and there's not a lot of room for creative strategy here in my personal experience.
Essentially, it's the variety in game play experience from game to game that I feel is lacking for me with this one and I just can't find the enthusiasm to suggest playing it again.
Yggdrasil is certainly a challenging game, but it can be fairly well "solved" (i.e. the optimal strategy is not too challenging to find if you play around with it for a while). Basically, you want to quickly clear the nearest bag of fire spirits/demons (whatever they're called) thus making it a guaranteed draw for the warriors you need (also, specialize each hero to combat a different enemy). I'd imagine this game has a similar challenge / skill curve to that of Ghost Stories, actually. :)
An excellent and highly respected game that I will never play again is Through the Ages. My friend brought it over and just destroyed any hope I shortly after starting Age II. I didn't want to spent the another hour just trying to stay afloat. I have never felt so horrible playing a game--this was the same person who taught me Terra Mystica, which I have never won (and I LOVE Terra Mystica now). TtA is just a painful experience for me. Never, ever, ever, ever.
Sam was on fire!!! Great video, guys!
I have played Diplomacy twice. Both times I had a great time. Both times I lost friends over it. Easy #1 for me.
a Great game i like to play is my friends game he made 2014. its a great game but my only problem to it is how long it takes to set up/clean up and playing can take 3-5 hours +1-2 more hours if you go after the elite bosses.
1) Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition, it's just too long for what it is, and I've never been a fan of "dudes in a map" type of games, even with the space diplomacy theming. The last game I played was so miserably boring that it just killed it for me. I've had bad games of it before, where the luck basically tanked the whole experience for one player (not necessarily for me), but this one made me realize... yeah, there are so many games I play much, much rather than this one, even if they don't give the same experience.
(Plz no throat punching, I recognize its merits!)
2) Catan, I don't think games will ever evolve to a level after which I'd stop praising this game and deny its value as a fantastic introductory boardgame. However, I've played it so much and there comes a point when I can safely say I've played it enough. I cherish the experiences I've had with it and friendships I've found through those experiences, but the time has come to let it go. =)
3) Galaxy Trucker, once my favourite game, now nearly out of my collection. After the expansions, the game has become way too bloated to teach to new players and the vanilla game is not enough for my gaming group. I still love it, but again, there are so many games I'd rather play nowadays.
4) Samurai, such a splendid strategy game with a very clever scoring mechanic. However, I have played it so extensively that it has kind of given everything it has to offer. I can't see myself playing it again, unless there is some A-class persuasion abilities unleashed on me by someone who desperately wants to play it.
5) Chess, I can probably never convey through words just how much time I've invested to both watching, learning and playing this classic, even with all its flaws. I still watch game analysis from UA-cam occasionally and sometimes watch the championships matches, but I've no longer any desire to play it again.
Did you play Catan with any of the expansions?