Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring - Extra Sci Fi - Part 1
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2024
- J. R. R. Tolkien wasn't just a fantasy author--he was a mythology master. As a result, he ended up inventing some of the most popular genre tropes that science fiction heavily draws upon. Fellowship of the Ring introduces the theme of the "lessening of the world" and the decay of humanity.
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Do you think that the Peter Jackson film trilogy captures and presents these themes as well as the books do (if you've read them)? Why, or why not?
Extra Credits definitely
One of the best movies in my opinion that were made
HI
Extra Credits I'd say so. It obviously had to make compromises, but it keeps the most important themes of loyalty and friendship, and that's all that really matters.
Unrelated, but the LOTR movies are probably the best visualization of a book's aesthetic ever.
Can you please make video about My Hero Academia, Made in Abyss, or The Promised Neverland? Thx
“J.R.R. Tolkien has become a sort of mountain, appearing in all subsequent fantasy in the way that Mt. Fuji appears so often in Japanese prints. Sometimes it’s big and up close. Sometimes it’s a shape on the horizon. Sometimes it’s not there at all, which means that the artist either has made a deliberate decision against the mountain, which is interesting in itself, or is in fact standing on Mt. Fuji.”
-- Terry Pratchett
I would love a video on Pratchett :)
I have all of his books, god he was a great author.
This is such a poetic and insightful phrase, that I'm going to give Terry Pratchett a first read, just on the basis of this phrase. If he came up with it, and meant it, the man has a way of conveying something he knows in very real poetic way.
@@BenjiQ575Trust me, you will not be disappointed. You may want to look up reading order charts first, though.
Terry Pratchett always has such interesting insights about the fantasy genre and writting in general. It's small wonder that the man was knighted for his contribution to literature.
"what are we holding on to Sam?"
"That there's still some good left in the world Mr Frodo, and it's worth fighting for!"
*Gollum looks down in shame
*I get teary
*sad*
I just wanted to call out David, the artist who‘s done such an amazing job illustrating this series, and especially with handling some of the more abstract concepts excellently! It’s such a pleasure to watch this series, and how complex themes are depicted.
Two of my favorite things combined - extra credits and LOTR
Yeeeees!
You know what is more deadly than the One Ring?
*Samwise dishing out death with his frying pan.*
so deadly he had to leave it in mordor
Great... So much for sleeping tonight.
I'll use my trusty frying pan as a dying pan!
this comment thread is pure art
I think Sam would be a Monster-OP-guy in pubg !
1 ring to return a consistent upload schedule
Joseph Krakowski are you ever going to do an ad on tv
It’s is me Joseph Krakowski with Trojan Condoms
So basically Tolkein incorporated a theme that would prove true in the legacy of his books. Lord of the rings would live on in countless new books of sci-fi and fantasy but there would be a lessening as these descendants would rehash tropes while losing touch with the soul of what made Lotor great.
Wow. That was strangely profound. Nice work on that piece of analysis!
I wouldn't say it's COMPLETELY lost, its just that not enough authors are willing to put in the work for it: The only recent fantasy series that comes close to what Tolkien did (in my opinion) is the Stormlight Archive, written by Brandon Sanderson. The world in it is deep enough that each book so far totals over a thousand pages each, and it makes something new out of twisting and playing with conventional fantasy tropes.
What an interesting insight.
Some of that is rose-tinted perception, some of it true. It takes great courage to do something new. Some part of you knows that you're "doing it wrong", that this isn't "how you're supposed to do it", but you do it anyway. Tolkien did that when he decided to write a richly detailed historical fiction and give it fantastic elements. That doesn't mean that nobody has made that sort of bold effort since, mind you. We just tend to notice more the ones who follow Tolkien's example by the letter instead of the spirit. I can assure you that there are other authors who have taken bold strides like that since. It's just that many times their efforts didn't pay off, or if they did, they were overshadowed by their predecessors who had made strides to change things before they did. It's easier to ignore something causing waves when you can say "yeah, but so-and-so made waves too x years before they did". Often this leads to the unfair assumption that these newer game changers aren't as important, but they absolutely are. It just tends to take a generation or two to appreciate just how big the impact really was.
I disagree. While there are many works of low quality today, the same was true in Tolkien's time. Those things which were not great (or even good, or mildly interesting) would not be remembered. THIS is why people yearn for "The Good Old Days (tm)." Not because they were better, but because they have forgotten the things which were not noteworthy and interesting (even if they were terrible).
Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow..
Where is the helm and the hauberk?
Those opening lines always give me goosebumps. EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I was (and still am) fascinated by the works of Tolkien because no matter how many times I read it, no matter how many videos of explanations, fan theories, etc. I see, there is always something new I didn't know or didn't think of in the next video/read. It would be great if you did a video series on the world and mythology behind it... or anything from Tolkien's work, really.
I have never clicked on a video of yours so fast. J. R. R. Tolkien and his works have been such a massive influence on my life and has kept me mentally stable through some of my most difficult times. I am so excited to watch these next few videos.
So glad to see you guys jump into Tolkien. Excited to see your take!
Personally, I feel any conversation of Lord of the Rings should start with an essay written by Tolkien: On Fairy-stories, where Tolkien lays down the groundwork for the themes and ideas he explores in all of middle earth, and criticizes a lot of the then-prevalent tropes in fantasy works.
When Extra Credits moved away from Dan and to Matt as the Narrator I was a bit worried but he does such a good job. He has proved it over these seven months. Thanks for being awesome Matt and the rest of the Extra Credits team.
I've noticed that the "passing of the torch" theme is something that's become more and more prevalent in the last couple decades, both in terms of the number of stories using it, and in how much emphasis it's given within those stories. Harry Potter's adult characters mostly exist to antagonize, manipulate, disappoint, or fail the adolescent heroes as they gradually taken on more and more responsibility for the well-being of the world. The Legend of Zelda series frames its generational transition as a continuous cycle, with each incarnation of Link and Zelda inheriting the world from their parents and mentors, defeating the evils that their elders failed to defeat, then leaving their tools, and their stories, for their successors to find. A lot of the most popular superheroes right now are sidekicks or legacy heroes, characters defined on some level by their relationship to an older, more recognizable figure. Even the LotR movies put greater emphasis on this theme, with Frodo being much younger than he was in the books, the long-standing divisions between Middle Earth's various factions seeming more bitter and stubborn, and Aragorn spending a lot more time worrying about becoming the sort of king that his ancestors failed to be.
I've actually been thinking about this a lot, lately - how most of the sci-fi and fantasy stories I experience seem to feature adolescent heroes grappling with legacy of their elders even as they steadily shape the world anew. Maybe it's just the influence of LotR, but personally, I think there is something more to it. Part of it's that the modern Hero's Journey seems to largely be a coming-of-age story for whatever reason, and coming to better understand the adults in your life and the world they live in is a fairly necessary part of growing up. Part of it is that I think my generation, in particular, has a very distinct feeling of being failed or even betrayed by the generations that preceded us - the economy sucks, climate change is on the verge of becoming apocalyptic, our country still actively persecutes anyone who isn't white, straight, and cisgendered, and the systems through which we might be able to solve these problems mostly seem outdated and ineffective. So there's some catharsis in watching our heroes figure out how to deal with problems that they're not in any way responsible for, both practically and emotionally, and in the adults being forced to clean up their mess.
The Lord of the Rings are my favorite books
The hobbit is the best
Lorne Miller
Yeah
They both are fantastic
@The Real Arbiter That is the correct answer.
Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!Ring a dong! hop along! Fal lal the willow!Tom Bom, jolly Tom, Tom Bombadillo!
Truly the greatest villain ever put on a page
Such a jolly character
I always thought that the lessening of generations was inspired by the contraction of the western roman empire. As Rome left it's provinces, the people there were left with just the memories of the great empire, and the crumbling architecture they left behind. It's a running theme in the arthurian legends, which also inspired a lot of fantasy authors, including J.R.R. Tolkien.
This sort of ties in with your previous video about world building. The scale of the whole mythos back through the silmarillion emphasizes these themes, and the world building that comes through in the Lord of the Rings organically adds to that melancholic sense of the passing of time.
Really I'd love to hear you talk about things like the Lay of Lethian and the Song of Durin or ideas like the Doom of the Noldor and the Gift of Illuvatar, which pretty well illustrate what you're talking about
Excellent. Uploaded just when I got really invested into the LOTR series.
Lord of the Rings is probably my favorite book and movie series. So I just want to say thanks a lot for taking the time to talk about it and dive in depth into it. I'm looking forward to the rest of this series!
I’ve waited for a solid lord of the rings mythology series from Extra Mythology for a while now. Glad to see you guys making these! :)
Gandalf bobbing intensifies
Kim Jong-un I hate what you did to your country
epic sax guy intensifies
AlphaChocolateTruffle I’m 12 it’s gonna be some time
It's probably not the real Kim Jong-un.
@@dannypockets emphasis on *probably* haha
Hard to mention Tolkien without also mentioning Dungeons and Dragons and the spawning of an entire new genre of games - the role playing game. While a number of game designers had attempted similar concepts, it was Tolkien-influenced D&D that capture the imagination of generations afterward.
Entropy! It's always entropy!
I love LotR and Tolkien, many thanks for doing this episode! Ai Elbereth Gilthoniel!!
Loved the take on Tolkien's themes, different from what people usually mention but still spot on and a new fresh air of interpretation
The "last generation" didn't really just leave the new generation with their problems, said last generation fought at least 2 direct wars with sauron, and won both, only for Sharon to come back. Not to mention the numerous indirect wars gondor and aranor fought with sauron's minions, and the fact that most of the "last generation" died with all that warring. To say that they could have just kept watch and delt with sauron ignores the fact that the last generation did just that and Sauron still came back. The point isn't just that the last generation is passing responsibility to the new generation, but that in upholding their responsibility, the last generation became so diminished.
this REALLY needs more upvotes.
The last generation didn't destroy the ring. That is literally the reason Sauron could come back in the first place. The ring is Literally the problem that the last generation never solved. The burden of the ring was metaphorically left with the new generation and LITERALLY given to Frodo by Bilbo. Tolkien couldn't make the subtext any more obvious without just making out text.
I think you are missing an important point there, while is true that the last generation fought against Sauron and his minions and actually won in the battlefield, the real problem they left for the next generation over and over again was their own greed and selfishness, the same things that allowed Sauron to persist (among other things) despite his losses on the field. Isildur destroyed Sauron in battle, but was greedy and arrogant enough to believe he could control the ring, Gondor fell into ruin after a civil war caused by someone greedy enough to believe he could usurp the throne (later on they would become the corsairs of Umbar) and greed was the reason dwarves lost moria to a balrog and so on, the last generation failed in that sense, regardless of how succesful they were in fighting Sauron in the conventional way. Thats the real responsability they pass down, being better, more selfless and kind, enough so that the new generation could resist the temptation of power (which the one ring represents), afterall without that, any military victory against the orcs or evil humans is hollow, just extending an inevitable defeat
We said, and many good points, but the video didn't mention those points, so while I agree, the video really should have clarified that if it was their argument. Also, it can not be understated just how many good people with a stronger moral fiber died in the wars with sauron, as well as what fighting sauron did to the survivors of said wars, which directly leads to greed for
the power to ensure Sharon doesn't return, as is the case with men like isuldor and boramir.
@@enriquevigo1746
I guess with the book's logic, having the ring carried by a Hobbit was sensible.
Hobbits have pride but not the hubris the others had. At least that's how it was shown in the books to an extent.
Very nice analysis and good food for thought. I've heard that E R Burroughs influenced some of Tolkien's thinking with the Barsoom tales. Don't know if that is true, but it is certainly a valid point you have that Tolkien has been an influence on science fiction with the dying world and lesser generations theory. I could see that being applied to the earlier books in "The Dragonriders of Pern" series. These first books had an overarching theme of a small group of Pernese people from a decaying society that is possibly facing extinction who first save and then improve their society through rediscovering their space colonist heritage and the special more eco friendly technology of their ancestors that had been forgotten.
ever since you guys first mentioned taking a look at lotr on this show i wondered why, but now that you have explained it, it makes sense
can you guys do a segment about books?
like extra books and if you do can you do things like the outsiders harry potter etc
God every since you guys started "Extra Sci-Fi" I was hoping you'd touch on Fantasy and thus LOTR, thank you so much and keep up the good work!
"...and in the darkness, bind them...."
I have a recording of Tolkien reading that passage. Still gives me chills!
Seems a bit lacking not to mention Tolkin’s dislike of allegory when allegorising his work.
What allegories are mentioned in this video?
NihlusKryik
, you're not wrong that Tolkien disliked allegory as a general rule, but would mentioning that have been necessary to the topics covered in this video? Tolkien also disliked critical theory and is known for writing, “We must be satisfied with the soup that is set before us and not desire to see the bones of the ox out of which it has been boiled.” And yet, here we are, watching as Extra Sci Fi examines some of the bones of Tolkien's work to us. Not everything true is relevant to the message.
@@fhengal it's weird. I think it -is- relevant, but in the end, eh, ''pressed for time'' is the usual cop-out teacher's excuse for not doing all the proper rabbit holes.
I'm a simple man. I see extra credits and I like. I see lord of the rings, I comment about my simplicity.
I recently was struck by the notion that I will soon have to give up this world to the next generation. I'm not that old, but I was contemplating how much my own parents have done for me, and what lengths I am willing to go for my own kids, when I have them.
I was suddenly struck with an immense sadness for all the opportunities I had missed, knowing that I had dreams that would amount to nothing. Even so, I felt a strong desire to teach my kids to be better orangutans than I ever was, and to give them the means to accomplish their dreams.
Even though they aren't born yet, and I know it's impossible, I still want to try to give them everything. It was really eye opening
Alot can be learned and applied from this book to our modern day lives
Best analysis of Tolkien I’ve heard in my entire life studying Tolkien!
I found and subbed to your channel around 2-3months ago. Burnt through all the EC History, in a day maybe 2 days. Then discovered all the sweet Syfy, and gaming content. EC has to be; if not my favorite, in my top 3 favorite UA-cam channels.
Lol passing of the torch in Star Wars from Luke to Rey as if that's what Ryan Johnson wanted. Loved your video guys!
I hope this becomes an excuse for a new Extra Fantasy show soon
LoTR was the first real DnD campaign (at least since the Odyssey). so I say it influenced sci-fi and most adventure focused stories way beyond its simple themes.
The journey of the hobbit friends to Bree will always be my favourite part in the books.
Whoaaaa! Such quality video :O those visuals are amazing
You gave me a better understanding of the books than I got from reading them, thanks! It makes lots more sense, also the movies.
*Sees Lord of the Rings*
Me : Oh hey, it's a fantasy!
*Sees "Extra Sci Fi"*
Me : _HOW COULD YOU_
Sci Fi and Fantasy are fairly close to each other, and often overlap. Star Wars is more fantasy than SciFi, for instance.
I forget who said it, but someone said that fantasy is about what is impossible, while sci-fi is about what might be possible under the right circumstances, and that the difference basically boiled down to a judgment call.
@@thakillman7 Even relatively hard sci-fi like Dune or Hyperion can have a lot of Fantasy elements.
Yeah, but Extra Speculative Fiction doesn't sound quite right.
And I remember Neil Gaiman saying that all fiction is fantasy. It's one of those Double Meaning words like 'Theory' or 'classical music'.
History and Science Fiction/Fantasy are my two favorite things, and Extra Credits has them both!
I love the Lord of the ring books but it took me 5 years to get through the first 200 pages as it was so slow at the beginning but finally getting through that opened a rich and inviting story
4:22 "There are things worth fighting for"
My favourite video on this channel ! Great job guys.
TOOOOOLLLLLLKKKKKIIIIIIEEEEEEENNNNNNN
👍
Still waiting on the series for the history of agriculture
LOTR having an elegiac sensibility fits well, since as a scholar Tolkein was one of the main proponents of Beowulf as an elegy, and he drew from that (and many other works of European heroic poetry) to craft his story.
"Elegiac?" Now there's a five dollar word!
That music, ITS AMAZING
I have a feeling this particular series is going to have a tremendous impact further down the road.
I know you guys are telling stories here, but I'd really like to see a series on philosophy. Perhaps history of philosophy
Yay! I love Lord of the Rings! Also I really love your channel! Sooo... Keep it up you’re doing great!!❤️❤️
That drawing of Sauron as a dog is funny.
Sauron looks like a Jojo Stand in the thumbnail.
Is this a jojo refrence
But it is me DIO
Frodo's Bizarre ring: Stardust fellowship
BUT THATS JUST A THEORY,
A FILM THEORY
ive got back into reading a little because of this series, checking off on some of the classics ive missed/you've mentioned.
Interesting to see the concept of the passing of generations. For the kids of today, Naruto would probably be the most popular series to have that theme, though it doesn't have the "diminishing with time" aspect that Lord of the Rings has. Rather, it's way more direct: it argues that the people of the older generations are actively holding back the newer generations by enforcing their rules on the younger folk, rules that don't necessarily apply anymore. In addition, the older generations hold grudges against things that happened prior (the Uchiha genocide, the previous Great Ninja Wars, the feud between the two sons of the Sage of Six Paths, etc.) that the younger ones, have forgiven the other sides for. The inheriting of the Tailed Beasts is a good example, as the people who watched their hometowns get destroyed by them and sealed them into human vessels bear a grudge so strong that they show a similar contempt for the vessels themselves despite the vessels having had no say over the whole thing, and even after Naruto discovers their sentience and is able to communicate with them. (That is, the one "gift" left from one generation to the next is a set of WMDs that the next generation doesn't even want but gets hated on for taking it anyway.) The final battle in the original series is against the oldest generation of all and hates the modern world the most. This antagonist can only be defeated when all other generations learn to forgive one another, setting aside their differences to combine their power.
Going into Boruto, with these differences set aside, the world enters into a much better age. Living standards and technology have improved greatly, as does overall understanding of the world, and for the first time in the Naruto universe, there is total peace between the major powers. (Of course, this causes the series to be noticeably worse than the first one, narratively speaking, as the world being at peace means all they fight now are small criminal sydicates and terrorist cells. There's not much at stake.)
I'm not a Naruto fan, mind you. I just pay attention to these series when they become popular. I consume a lot of media in general, as I love to broaden my horizons. I'm the sort to watch Jeopardy! every day, for instance.
Also, I know this would receive a lot of hate, but I LOVE the fact that you guys used the elderly Luke Skywalker handing the light saber to Rey. I think this one works better than Obi Wan to Luke because the former is relatively quick, with most of the resistance coming from Luke, whereas Luke is incredibly reluctant to do the same for Rey, and he has to make peace with himself first. Also, I know the Sequel Trilogy is a love-it-or-hate-it thing, and I am firmly on the side of Love It. So I just wanted to put my two cents on that side because I know plenty of others will have already on the Hate It side.
Oooooh the intro gave me chills!
I hadn't thought about the passing on the torch aspect before!
Will there be a extra Sifi video on or mentioning Douglas Adams?
Probably not, since Douglas Adams' work is a parody of sci-fi tropes as developed by other authors. His bread and butter is to take the aesthetic of sci-fi, and juxtapose it with theme and meaning that is utterly trivial, and the humor is in the subversion. Hitchiker's Guide is not really a work of sci fi so much as it is a work about sci fi.
@@icedragon769 ok
Mabye they'll mention him
Hope so as Hitch Hikers is one of my favourite books
I can't like this enough! I will never see LOTR again in the same way after all these aspects you brought up... This was a well deserved thumb up
The Lord of The Rings goes very deep into archetypal narrative. It tells many stories that have been told throughout history in a condensed format. Though at times you have to look hard for some of them.
I follow you almost religiously since I've found you but this was made before that. And my favourite. Algorithms just showed it to me after supposedly 5 years of being made.
That makes sense. And given his own history and what was going on around him, it would make sense.
I wonder if that's part of why I like Decomposing Composers.
Now I know why I love history. Thank you good sir!
didnt even scratch the surface with tolkien... Great Video!
I find it fitting that LOTR has seen a huge revitalization and boom in popularity among the Millennial generation. I believe this is in part because these themes, especially the "lesser" generations having to solve the problems of the "greater" ones, really speak to us as Millennials.
wow never really thought about it like that. That is a really good take.
wow thanks i kinda needed that reminder
Are you going to discuss at any point EE Doc Smith and the Lensmen series? I believe that is the first space opera written
My own, my love, my precious.
Lee Cupp
MAH BALLS
Glad I found this channel!
much more nuanced argument of Tolkien's view of time than what Philosophy of made
Can we just take a minute and acknowledge the amazing graphics? Holy dayum boi
That last bit, just brilliant.
Great video! I would love to see some Game of Thrones videos from this channel also.
That is a fantastic idea
Maybe they could connect that to the war of the roses
Pleeaaassseeee I need more of this!!!
I read somewhere that Tolkien viewed the concept of history as one massive spanning defeat. Kind of pessimistic, but I'd argue Tolkien wasn't saying the future is hopeless. He seemed to treat the 'defeat' with a kind of bittersweet attitude.
you can never have enough lord of the rings content in youtube.
Glorious. Thanks for the lovely video!
Loved this!! Great content as always guys :)
You should do a series on, A Wizard of Earth sea. It's not sci-fi, but it's still really cool.
Great cant wait for the rest
Also ghibli does this of the diminishing of the world and the ancient spiritual ways. Specially in mononoke no hime
This isn’t all to surprising once you take into account that Tolkien lost his boyhood home due to industrialization, or what some argued was “progress.” It’s not hard to see how to Tolkien the world he saw in his daily life was degrading.
The theme of passing on problems to the next generation really reminds me of UC gundam, when are ya going to do an extra sci-fi on sci-fi anime?
Never figured to see LOTR in a SF themed series, but if it means we get to talk more about Tolkien.......i'm in!
OMG I SAW THE TITLE AND NERDED OUT SO MUCH OMG I'M SO EXCITED!!!
I have some issues with the "lessening of the world."
It's true that certain things get lost over time, but in the real world, improvements are also made.
I sincerely doubt that people ever lived as long as they claim they did in things like the Bible, but our understanding of the cosmos as a whole has vastly expanded, and while we're definitely in something a a dark age now, the potential for innovation and enlightenment has never been greater.
>I have some issues with the "lessening of the world."
It's more that certain irreplaceable things get lost (certain ideas, certain works, great people). That's not to say new things cannot arise or that the world cannot improve. But some things are just.. lost. The Dark Ages are called that because we know so little about it, not because it was dark. The Library of Alexandria must've contained an immense amount of knowledge we cannot get anymore.
I LOVE THIS CHANNEL MORE THEN EVER
Awsome... can u do isaac asimov's Foundation, Foundation and Empire, and Second Foundation. Great trilogy.
Interesting that you talked about the LOTR without mention of Vagner and the Ring Cycle that is at the heart of Tolkien’s work and much of modern mythos.
I think that would stray too much into Fantasy, which isn't really the point of the series.
@@thakillman7 a fair point. However if you are going to comment on the influence of the LOTR despite the fact that it is fantasy, it is probably worth a sentence to comment on the overwhelming influence of its source material.
It would be really cool to have a look at George RR Martin’s A song of ice and fire(game of thrones) and the world building around that. Because it is simply incredible, down to the lowliest lords over 300 years of extremely detailed history and another 8000 years of legends are enscribed in his saga and history’s of a completely made up world. The depth is amazing and I think it would make for a very cool episode, especially with the build up around the final season of game of thrones coming out this April.
please do Discworld next
I've never seen LotR in that way. Awesome video guys!
So starts the greatest story ever told
Lord of the rings is my favourite sci-fi stories